Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I have never liked Elizabeth much, but she really outdid herself today on THE VIEW. She was trying to justify to Jesse Ventura that torture is OK when dealing with terrorist suspects. The Jordanian guy in BODY OF LIES put it best, "TORTURE DOES NOT WORK. A MAN WILL SAY ANYTHING TO STOP THE PAIN. Hell even Joan of Arc confessed to witchcraft when they tortured her.

Jack Bauer proves it works.

Utilitarian much?

If it did work, then you would condone it?

You aren't trying to grab the moral high ground, are you?

I don't know exactly what this is in reference too (ie, the Bush Administration), but I think there is a strong difference between things like the waterboarding of what was it, a total of three without-a-doubt confessed terrorists to whatever was done to Joan of Arc etc. etc.  The term "torture" is thrown around so loosely.

At the end of the day, I do believe there are times where certain forms of so-called torture are necessary, such as the obvious scenario in which 50,000 (or whatever arbitrary number) lives are at stake, but that's not the real concern.  The real concern is whether the people with the power to use such techniques are wise enough and careful enough to know when to use it.

Regarding the Bush Administration, I have zero objections to the three (or close to three) instances when they used the waterboarding technique *(assuming the report released by the Obama administration on the waterboarding use was accurate, and the news media which I read was accurate in reporting on that report).

Why did you Betray me , Tony.  :rant:

(http://www.jaunted.com/files/5957/jack_bauer_gun.jpg)

Im not sure if it works or what not, but I have little sympathy for a terrorist and their "Rights"

They weren't too concerned about the rights of the 3000 people that died on 9/11.

Oh I see, Mr. anti-spoiler decides to plant one in a thread that isn't even a 24 thread.  ;)

Sneaky... I like it!

I'm not sure if it works or not, but if you're "torturing" someone(and I put it in parenthesis because some of the so-called torture is so mild compared to what is done by others),  and they tell you false information, you can say "fine, we'll check on the information you gave us, and if it turns out to be a wild goose chase, we'll be back."
Now, it may very well turn out to be bs, but then at least the victim knows what he is in for. It's not like he doesn't have a warning.

Everyone always says, 'what if your family was in danger of death...', and it's a true sentiment because most of us would do whatever it takes to get them back safe. Whatever it takes.

you know you love it Jim.

americans are basically split on this issue. most of the polls are right down the middle. and there was even a recent poll where 36% of democrats said torture could be justified often or sometimes.

For me, u have to be human to have rights and deserve sympathy

People whose sole mission in life is to kill others don't qualify as human and I say do whatever it takes to save the innocent.

But doesn't that make us just as bad as them? I would give my life for someone I love. The debate on the View was why was it Ok to use torture on Muslim suspects and not the Timothy Mcvays's of the world. I also though torture was illegal. Elisabeth just made a total fool of herself as usual. Whoopi Goldberg was much more rational. I liked the way Hani Salem took on the terrorists in BODY OF LIES. Why don't we torture gangbangers who murder innocent children in drive by shootings? I mean where do you draw the line?

because gangbangers aren't being trained in lawless lands plotting to kill millions of americans with nuclear weapons.

so the answer is to get information. it's the old ticking time bomb debate.

Jessie the Body is just doing the typical promotion tour bullying female talk show hosts to get his name in the headlines and sell more books.

if you waterboarding is an effective means of gaining intelligence, then why did they need to waterboard Khaled Sheikh Mohammed 183 times?   

All that does is bring us down to their level and it is more likely to provide inaccurate information.    WMD/Al Qaida in Iraq?

The funniest part is most of the "pro-life" crowd are the same clowns who endorse this kind of nonsense.   

I think gangbangers are small scale terrorists. The people in power don't do enough to fight them because most of the victims are in poor neighborhoods. If innocent children were killed by a drive by in Malibu there would be a much greater upheaval than the daily occurences in Englewood. I liked the way Clint Eastwood handled the gangbangers in GRAN TORINO.

I say kill em all

gangbangers= instant death penalty

Terrorist=instant death penalty

Fuck 3 strikes

Hatred breeds hatred, unless a revenge is done proper.

It's easy to point out terrorists as inferior to us, but weren't Nagasaki terrorism too? Israel? Palestine?


Isn't that racistic? ;D

Of course the United States have some of the greatest acts of terrorism ever committed.......

So, D, by your earlier reasoning, every FBI, CIA, armed forces member and politician that had anything to do with acts of terror should have received the death penalty?

I am not disagreeing with you.  I'm just asking for clarification's sake.

and what if anyone of your family had anything to do with acts of terror?

Gilld1, yeah, I think that's what D means.  Al Qaeda I'm sure feels the same way D does.

D, you're forgetting one huge factor.  There are innocent people being rounded up.  Innocent people were tortured.  It's not speculation...it's fact!  You honestly feel comfortable with innocent people getting tortured? 

Jim Bob made a great point...one person, 183 waterboardings?  Do you really fucking think it works??  How many innocents are you comfortable with being tortured? 


ppbebe asked what we would think if any of our relatives were involved in terror?  After having been found guilty in a real court, I'd want them locked up in a cold, dark cell never to see another human being again...kept alive for a long time in a miserable, lonely, and uncomfortable cell, fed with gruel.  Fair enough?  Am I too soft on criminals?  Terrorists??  Ya really think so???  All parties are too soft on crime. 

It's no more funnier than the people who are "pro-choice" and don't give a shit about sticking a needle into a babies brain to abort it, but have all this sympathy and love for a terrorist and their "rights."

Drew, if it means you'll love it, adopt it, pay for it through it's upbringing...I'm pro-life buddy...but until you can get somebody to adopt that severely handicapped kid/crack baby/HIV positive baby...you have no argument.

Like I've said before...if every pro-life person in the country signed an agreement to adopt every otherwise aborted baby, I will support the overturning of Roe v. Wade.  Until then, stfu unless you're willing to adopt what nobody's willing to adopt.   ;)

the real court is the key.  :yes: 
the question wasn't for you tho.
I wanted to know if pro torture peeps would still rather their beloved be treated as non human when they were suspected.

Your question is valid, because it's a catch 22. First off, I believe each case has to be decided individually, on it's own merits. Is there enough evidence to torture someone based on the facts that are presented? Is there a high probability that the person in question has information that could save lives? Possibly many, many lives? Thousands?
On the other side, can you trust the information that led them to be a suspect in the first place?
So what do you do? Do you let someone go and hope that everything turns out ok? As in hopefully thousands of people don't die, or do you possibly torture an innocent person?

There are a lot of good kids without handicap that are killing during abortion as well.  Watching an innocent baby die like I did for 4 days this week is the hardest thing I have ever seen.  So ya, I am pro life for sure. 

You have any statistics to back up this claim?  You're claiming that AIDS, Crack babies and retarded kids are a huge part of abortion.  Seems like your looking at one piece of the pie.  There is more than enough people willing to adopt babies.  But for arguments sake, handicap, aids and crack babies can be aborted.  You still cool with that or did you have something intelligent to add to your argument?  My guess is you were relying on the emotional appeal.

I think you are all missing the big idea here...How about the fact that there is a show on television that consists of WOMEN telling us the way the world should work?  Anybody else seeing the irony in this?

Smoking Guns, you know I like your posts...but tell pro-lifers to put their money where their mouths are and adopt these kids.  What's the number floated around for how many fetuses have been aborted, it's somewhere over 40 million since 1973, correct?  I do know they tried getting frozen embryos adopted and implanted to "save" them...what, over a million of those as well, eh?  If my memory is correct, the "outpouring" of concern from the pro-life folks got maybe 100 of those adopted and implanted. 

It's hypocrisy at its finest. 

I'm all for making adoption easier...but it's easier said than done.  "Make it easier" will mean less funding for needed family screenings, increased risks of kids being victimized, and oh yeah, how's about throwing millions more kids into a foster care system that's already got horrendous issues.


For Sam Beckett, you just love sticking words in people's mouths.  I never said those particular groups were "a huge part" of abortion...but they sure do make a compelling argument, eh?  I didn't even mention the black and latino kids that many waspy families just wouldn't feel comfortable taking in to their families.  Hell, a lot of white families will adopt Asian babies from halfway around the world before they adopt frozen embryos or black or latino kids not to mention the kids with mental and physical handicaps.
Keep living in your dreamland where every knocked-up 14 year old gives birth to a beautiful and healthy baby that has a family out there ready to provide for its next 18 years.  Bullshit.  Women who are making the decision to abort their fetuses aren't exactly the ideal women when it comes to good pre-natal care...so even if you do prevent them from having abortions, you're going to have more children out there with birth defects, etc. that will undoubtedly increase the burden on the state...and boy, don't those pro-lifers love welfare programs.    ::)

So, do you accept my challenge?  Pro-lifers throughout the country are now required by law to adopt all the baies that would have otherwise been aborted.  Roe v. Wade is overturned, and now it's your turn to adopt all the unwanted babies.  Good fucking luck!

How about all those couples who would abort their babies just get their tubes tied and/or get a vasectomy instead?

Both procedures can be reversed if later on they decide to have children.

In a perfect world Gypsy, sure, wouldn't it be great if people made responsible decisions?
Unfortunately, they don't, and we have to deal with that fact.
Are you advocating folks who require an abortion get their tubes tied?  I think the pro-life movement would be far better served trying to get the morning-after pill to women in need immediately!  The number of abortions required would be drastically cut (it's already cut the need for abortions big-time).

Now, if we want to throw around an idea of setting limits on the numbers of abortions per woman/man, that would be cool.  Notice how I said man as well.  Every pregnancy should have a mother and father verified by dna testing...and if the woman can't figure out who the father is-automatic tied tubes.  Once you've hit the limit, tie 'em up or snip-snip.  I may be pro-choice, but I see no reason for people having the right to use abortion as a regular means of birth control.

I'd even be cool with mandatory education classes for women considering abortion.  Full 3-d images of the fetus, descriptions of level of fetal development, etc. 

What I won't support is a blanket ban of abortion.  It's not right.  In my perfect world, people wouldn't be stupid enough to have unprotected sex when they don't want to conceive a child.  As usual, it's irresponsible people causing the problems.

I also would not allow a teen girl to carry a child.  Mandatory abortion with tubes tied, and the young father given a vasectomy.  If it's a situation of rape, take off his nuts.