Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Work? Really???

The fans of a band "work" for them? I've never heard of that before.

Geez, did you even notice how I used the word work in quotes?

It was a fucking example of doing something constructive with the energy some spend on whining. But instead of taking it in and thinking about it, you just whine more.

This is kinda typical for some fans.



Now you're not even whining about the band, you're whining about other fans trying to tell you that you can be more constructive.

Hilarious!





/jarmo

Hilarious indeed.

I love how any one who disagrees is "whining". It isn't the fans job to promote this album. If it had been properly promoted by anyone from the band or the record label, the fans wouldn't need to worry about "working" to help the album out.

Nobody's asking you to do the work of the record company's promotional department.

It's just a matter of being constructive. I'm sure if you really try, you could come up with more examples of how to be constructive instead of just whining about it.


Certain people on the Internet just like to whine. That's it.

When there's no album, it sucks. When there's an album, something about it sucks. When there's no tour, it sucks. When there's a tour, the shows suck.

Can you see a pattern?

The same people who thought the shows sucked in 2006 and 2007 now pretty much demand a tour.



/jarmo

U have to admit though, they don't do the best job of interacting with the fans. I think people get negative and upset at the lack of updates, correspondence etc than anything else.

it is frustrating at times being in the dark.

As a matter of fact, that's exactly what was being proposed. As if it's somehow the fans job to promote something that neither the label nor the band itself appear to want to promote.

But here's my thing, I believe I have a proven track record of trying to maintain a positive outlook. I loved the 02 show (even though it was cut short) I saw. Loved them both times in 06 and loved all the bootlegs/webcasts I could get my hands on from that era. Love, love, love the album. Physically bought it 3 times and once on RB2.

So the part that I don't get is how I can't disagree with another poster witout being labeled as a "whiner"

Yeah, Axl spent hours answering our questions.

How often do you see Jon doing something similar?





Funny. I remember back in the day when requesting your favorite songs on the radio, MTV or whatever wasn't considered "doing the record company's job".

How times change.




Glad you enjoyed all those shows and album.  : ok:


Still, the point stands.

If people used some of the "energy" they use to whine about shit they have no control over on something positive, maybe things could be better for them....


It's far easier to go online and whine about how your local radio station sucks than to e-mail them and ask why they suck!





/jarmo

I just don't understand though. They have a video for Better, why not just release it?

artistic plans change - as usual for Axl  : ok:

as a fan from this b(r)and name fans experienced it the hard way that its better not to expect anything!

i have been a fan since 1987, i know most/some of u were in diapers.  i also feel ur frustration with the way things are with the new guns.  guns even in the old days were non conformists AXL always did it on his terms.  granted,  it is at another level now but be patient he undertook an almost impossible task of reinventing the biggest band in music never been done before so enjoy the record which is brilliant and when he tours not if but when go u won't be disapointed. keep the faith he  will not let u down.

My local radio stations are great. They play plenty of Guns N' Roses. They just don't play any Chinese Democracy because the label and the band don't promote it in any way, shape or form. One guy calling them constantly isn't going to change that if he's the only guy who wants to hear it.

What kills me about all of this is that this thread was originally started asking what Guns N' Roses next move might be from here. Now here we are 7 pages later blaming fans for any sort of concern.

Once again you missed the point and keep repeating your "I'm not gonna do the promotion work".

Nowhere did I say your radio station sucked or that you think so.

I gave you an example of how whining is so much easier than doing something constructive.


I don't know if the whole concept of being constructive is what's weird for you.



/jarmo

Buying the album on several formats. Seeing several shows on several tours. These things aren't constructive?

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds when you give the impression that GNR can do no wrong? You don't seem to want to admit that there are glaring problems with the way this album has been handled, and when any one wants to discuss that, they get labeled as a whiner.

Did I say so?

I even said I'm glad you enjoyed them.





Yes, I'm aware that things might seem ridiculous when you only look at things from your own point of view without knowing all the facts or not knowing why things happened.

Everything has an explanation.


Do you know how ridiculous it looks when people blame the band for everything?




I think I've mentioned that I don't think Universal Music or Best Buy did what they could have.....


That still doesn't mean that I have to think that just whining about things is being constructive.



Now we have people whining about there not being any news.

The band announced they have a new guitar player and they were rehearsing....



Been here before haven't we?

D?j? vu indeed....




/jarmo

"Everything has an explanation"

with this band its hard to believe though, big reason for it is that they mostly decide not to give out much or any information. this is no whining when people say communication with the fanbase surely could be better.

off now calling radio stations for playing cd songs  ;)

Yes. We've been here before. It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now. And just to be clear, it's Universal and Best Buy who could've done more right? Guns N' Roses isn't at fault in any way?

why are you so into fault-finding?

you got the album and the game, talked with axl online, hear from the band every now and then...and a tour is likely.

No, it's not hard to figure out why they don't explain everything. Probably every time they have giving an explanation has ended with Axl (or whoever) being called a liar....

So if they don't say a word -> "they don't tell us anything"
If they explain things -> "I don't think that's what happened, they're lying!"


It's funny how everybody else is always right about GN'R and the band lies to their fans.  ::)




1+1+1=3

If you take away two of them, you have one left.

1+0+0 does not equal 3....

One part of the equation can't do the work of the other two.



By the way. Since so many are against the constructive thing. I'm always curious about what exactly the whining achieves.

What good does it do to whine about there not being a video (for example)? The band knows it, most of us fans know it. Yet some people like to go on and on about it. Why?

I can understand offering an opinion like that if you're asked for it. Like if somebody asked "what would you like us to do next?".

But in GN'R's case, it's mostly people repeating things we all know and are aware of. So why do people keep doing it?

The only thing I can come up with is that it's easy to whine and maybe it makes somebody feel better....




/jarmo

not fair jarmo, I don't have as many fans as Axl..

but I have answered a lot of questions in the Ask thread  ;)

Whining about GNR certainly doesn't make me feel better, therefore I don't do it. As for "people repeating the same things we're already aware of"; what would you prefer? No one talking about anything since there isn't anything to talk about?

And just to be clear are you saying that since Best Buy & Uni dropped the ball, that GNR should as well?

How about trying something constructive?  :hihi:




GN'R can't do everything on their own.

GN'R can tour and do interviews. There's a lot of things that they can't do though.




/jarmo

So why do people keep doing it?

I think I've said this before here somewhere. But, the internet has given "everybody" a voice. And in some cases (some would say most cases) that's not neccecarily a good thing. The people that complain always screams out the loudest. And that comes to show in places like this...   ::)

It's like riding in a taxi and having the taxi-driver (who didn't gratuate highschool) lecture you on politics and the state of union...

And you Jarmo, being sorta "the owner" of the taxi-company (no offence), you deal with these people everyday...

Honostly, I can't understand how you don't get tired of responding to them   ???   I seems to me that they love to get responses from you!

So they keep at it....   :yes:

Annnnnnd here we go in a circle again. What do you consider constructive? Calling a radio station to request GNR and posting here about it?

As far as GNR touring and doing interviews, do you honestly feel they've done a great job of that since the albums release?

Something constructive would be something that does some good. As opposed to just repeating the same whining over and over again. Which obviously hasn't helped anybody so far.


Requesting songs is one example.

If you want another example, I'll give you one: Recommending the album to your friends, co-workers etc.

That's also constructive instead of just sitting on your (not aimed at you personally) ass whining about there not being any news.

I'm sure you can come up with more ideas.

But I guess in this age of "what can you do for me?", doing something unselfish is just considered "doing somebody else'e work".  ;)





The tour hasn't started yet.....

So it'd be kinda weird to comment on how great job of touring and promoting they've done since it hasn't started.




/jarmo

so there is an explanation for everything but because of the "danger" getting their own words twisted and misinterpretated they decide just not to update (much)? sounds very pessimistic but fits the "mysterial" GN'R way of doing....can it be they just want this mysterious way, they somehow always have been connected with, to go on?
the fact for now remains they rarely tell anything! is it so hard to give some more updates here and there like "rehearsing kicked ass today, cant wait to go on tour. we're not goin' to open with jungle again ( ;D) " or something like that?

They tell us when they got something to say. Always been like that.

Some of you just like to keep going on and on about it. Maye you've been going on about the lack of updates since 1985? Who knows....



Some artists are happy to do updates on what they had for breakfast.

GN'R has never really been that way.



It's also ironic that the complaints are still the same after Axl was on these fan forums a few months ago asnwering our questions.

It's like "that was great but what can you do for me now?".....




/jarmo

Helping the album is one thing, but like you said you need all the elements to work together, so until the band decides to get out there themselves why should anyone else? Theres nothing like a great show to make somebody go buy an album.

I dont think the band are to blame for everything, but they shouldnt be cleared for everything either.

using this type of words against the fanbase is something you have developped to an extense the last few years. its not necessarily an pure egoistic fan move to question things which could help the b(r)and name. good communication is something from value in general, it cant hurt. and indeed axl has proven in december'08 he "can" do that.

I must admit that I would love to have updates in a more frequent basis, but that's not something that I worry about. At the same time, I prefer this ammount of communication than being overflowed with nonsense like, for example, Slash does with his twitter. I really dont care about the ''I'm having a big bowl of cornflakes 'cause today will be a looong day'' kind of useless updates some of you seem to need.

Guns N' Roses does updates if the info is relevant, and at the right moment.

GNR will never please some ''style'' of fan. Years and years being active at GNR forums made me learn that. Luckily, that kind of ''impossible to please'' fan is near extinction (they were majority some years ago)

I don't care whose fault it is, CD has been the most mismanaged CD to ever be released. I don't understand how a 10 year in the making album can have the ball get dropped so horribly.

It just doesn't make sense. I blame everybody involved from Axl to the label.

No radio campaign, no videos, no band when the thing got released.

Selling it to the highest bidder with limited stores and foot traffic, bad marketing and promotion...............


The label got their money back from Best Buy and basically told Axl to go fuck himself.

That is what I think.   I see two sides of the coin here.

Axl can't really do a lot if the label isn't behind it cause they put the cash up for videos,promotion etc. If the label was not interested in doing so and I will say that is the case, U cant really blame Axl.


The label once they got the green light was so afraid Axl would change his mind, they rush released it without any plan whatsoever.

so where do we go now?

IF the label did Axl this way on CD, what does this mean for future albums?

Can Axl get out of the contract and do the Indy thing? I just can't see that happening so it makes u wonder what the future of this band is to be honest. How bad does Axl want to be the biggest rock star on the planet cause I am not sure he cares about that anymore.

Yeah, but at the same time 1+1+0 doesn't equal 3.
It seems like it's easy to blame Best Buy and the label for screwing up promoting, and I agree, they haven't helped matters. But at the same time, they both have a lot of other things on their plate to focus on besides ChiDem. GnR on the other hand could put pretty much 100% of their attention into the album. The album, its release, promotion etc. is the bands number one priority, while Best Buy and the label have a lot of other things going on.
Also, they don't communicate because they are scared of what a small group on the internet will say? That seems pretty damn paranoid.

It looks like GnR is always trying to shift responsibility to other people- We won't promote our record because Best Buy isn't pulling their weight and the label (who put, what, $13mill+ into the album?) isn't helping. And we won't communicate with the public because some people on a message board (who could actually name who is in the band) might get the wrong message.
Always someone elses fault.

As a fan, I am disappointed at the blown comeback.

It was all laid out for Axl and GNR to come back and be the biggest, greatest band in the world again and they just shot themselves in the foot on every single opportunity.

If CD had came out in 02 after the VMA's and a tour and all that would've happened, I have a feeling it would've been huge, especially if Axl had looked and sounded like he did in 06 but that whole debacle once again happened.


I guess from an entertainment standpoint, I was wanting badly for Axl to come back and save music and I fault my own expectations. I don't fault the band for being unable to deliver what in reality was probably unrealistic expectations to this fanbase.


The interview on the forums was awesome. I guess we take for granted what an awesome and rare thing that was but what gets misinterpreted as negativity is really just rabid fans wanting their favorite band to be the greatest, top band in the world again.

At times it seems as if Axl doesn't even care and that drives a lot of fans nuts and we get the attitude like, why should we care if they don't?

You choose to care.   No one else makes that choice.    Whether or not Axl cares, thats his own choice.    Doesn't bother me in the least.   

Seeing GnR on top again would be nice, but is it realistic?   Is that even what Axl is trying to achieve?    I don't know the answer to either question.   

They're my favorite band and I am content just to see them releasing music and playing shows.   Hell, there were times over the years I doubted the album would ever be released.   So I'm a happy GnR fan.

Ok so don't comment on the tour that hasn't happened yet. What about the promotion that could've been done by GNR (not Uni or Best Buy) so far?

I listen to the fucking album everyday. I love it. There are some songs that I listen to since 2001 and I'm not tired at all.

I never really thought about the new album as a massive sucess or something. I think it's good for me and that's what matters. Tours and promoting are bonus to me.

Do you really think it helps to make ironic remarks about the band name?

I'm sorry, but that doesn't help much in your favor when you're trying to not sound like a whiner.

no tour, no video, no interviews etc = no public interest

bingo.

your decision to call it ironic. GN'R is a band and brand name in my eyes, using "b(r)and" name simply fits both categories. if thats an issue to you i'd rather call you a whiner  :), exspecially as thats not the main point in this topic or in my words.
the fact remains that cd is out for nearly about 6 months and there definatley is some lack of promotion and communication. for such an important release after all the years from Axl could some more frequent updates help when there is silence? off course! its pretty common that good communication is important. and its not difficult to do these days aswell. but we mainly got the 3x same lame excuses:

"some people would twist the words"......eh, if they really care about some few "online freaks" or press that much its a problem on their side. and when there are those few updates you dont need to wonder if your own words get back to you (recent example: the "better" video/ cd re-release)

"plans change"......sure, as always!!

"it was always like that"....guess what? we've been moving on, why cant they?

isnt it more like a warning signal when fans, people who do care about this band, wonder what is up? its not about "what can you do for me?" but more like "what has been going up at all after cd release and where do we go now?"
whatever the main plan is -most likely promoting the album-.....its waiting time again. and hey, a freind of me just bought 3 cd songs for that computer game cause i've told him to check them out on ps3  ;)

Against the fanbase? Get real.


The truth is, some of these fans are never happy.

As soon as they get something, it's forgotten.


For years they demanded an album and by January 2009 it was forgotten.



You don't like the simple and reasonable explanations.

Fair enough.

Not much I can do about it.


The thing with these updates still remains. Whenever Axl or the band has said something about what they hope to do in the future, and it didn't happen, there's a "they lied" reaction. It's almost like some people take pride in pointing that out.

Many things are not entirely up to the band to get done. Yet, when it doesn't get done, a lot of people assume it's only the band's fault.

Then when you explain the reason(s), you get called a liar or just the usual "I don't buy it".

So maybe keeping your mouth shut seems like a reasonable solution.


When you actually think about it, you have a little more understanding for it. And when you've seen the same shit happen for years, you understand a little more than that.





I guess it's one of your smart ass moves to show how unhappy you are.




Promoting the album without touring and without the backing from the record company?





/jarmo

ui ui....another fan bashing and right back into speculation?! i can do that, too  :)
mod frequently bashing fans to fit his unhappiness needs!

What the fuck are you talking about?

You make smart ass remarks about the band and think nobody will notice? You got your attention just like you wished.


Mod bashing fans?

That's funny.


This from a guy who's bashing the band.



/jarmo

I think the problem is that Axl has more or less promised things like videos, tours and bonus discs over the years and most of it generally fails to materialise.  Like D has said, the album launch has been a missed opportunity.  I actually don't care about who's the biggest band in the world, and I think it's largely irrelevant.  The record label would surely not stand in Axl's way if he really wanted GN'R to be a 'global brand' or whatever shite marketing people like to call it.  Maybe Axl just isn't that interested, and if so I wish he'd just let us know rather than dangling the proverbial carrot.  People have every right to moan about that.  If people on fan sites expect something from GN'R it's because of things Axl has said himself.  Remember that the general population have probably only just realised that Slash isn't in the band, and they also probably have no expectations.

From Axl's mouth :


Basically, he's aware that Guns are no longer what they used to be and that Geffen don't try to make it the biggest band in the world anymore. His commitment to the b(r)and now lies in delivering quality music and quality performances. I would say GnR DOES deliver when it comes to that. Now I also have the feeling that GnR could have been huge again if ChiDem had been released in 2002 because at that time everybody seemed to care about the band even though there was a lot of hate too ( Axl is also aware of that, read his whole post again ) but I really wonder if ChiDem would have been a better record than it is now. I really don't think so.
I guess that it comes to a balance of fame/mainstream recognition and quality music and performances. Axl chose to care about the latter and I'm not really sure that he could have had both despite additional promotion/interviews. He seems really aware of the public attention towards his band ( for instance when he talks about how the GnR name brought lots of people to the show in Europe but failed to do so in the U.S during the 2006 and 2007 tours ).

To put it in a nutshell : Axl just wants to deliver quality music and performances for the people who really care for him and his band and to ensure the quality of the GnR brand. Everything else  ( CD selling a gazillion copies, GnR going to the top of their game again, what fans of the classic lineup think of the new band etc ) is either secondary or not worth giving a fuck about anymore.

Promoting the album without touring and without the backing from the record company?





/jarmo
[/quote]

How have GNR themselves promoted this record since it came out, that's my question.

On one hand, record sales were probably bigger in 2002 than they were in 2008.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if interest in GN'R was bigger in 2002 compared to 2008.




I agree.


Some of you might not like the way he does things, but the end results are worth it in my opinion.

For example, you might not like the fact that the band's shows don't end before 11PM...But you sure as hell get your money's worth.





Interviews from Axl, Tommy etc.?



/jarmo

Bullshit. 

It would have a dominos (not the pizza) affect.  If each one of us called our local radio stations and requested Chinese Democracy and Better then thousands and thousands of peoples all over the world who aren't familiar with the new material will be exposed to it thereby creating public interest!!!  We know how great the new material is so a little exposure like this to the listening public would IMO go a lot further to bring in new fans and promote the album than say a tour (which would be great too) that mostly only current fans attend ... or a video (which would be great too) that even current fans would be hard pressed to find on t.v. or youtube or wherever they play music videos now-a-days.

The interviews are already happening.  I know.  I typed out nine pages of Brain's recent interview. 

Right. I'm aware of what "promotion" has been done by the band. I'm asking what your opinion is of it.


I'm sorry if you truly believe that A) the fans should be the ones promoting this product and B) that one person calling a radio station would make any difference.

If that were true then why do all these ridiculous threads urging fans to bombard websites and radio stations with calls and votes for GNR not accomplish anything? When the album dropped people from these boards were all over tons of radio station website polls voting in favor of the new material and so on. None of that seems to have done anything so please explain to me how 1 person calling a radio station to request it would help?

As I've said, there's not a whole lot a band can do when the record company isn't doing anything.

They can tour and do interviews. They've done one of those and hopefully will tour.

I guess they could put out videos for the fans to watch. Will it do any difference in the long run if there's nothing backing up the videos from the record company?

Do you make videos when there's no support for the singles? Do you keep doing interviews when there's nothing going on at the record company?



The biggest promotional thing would be a tour as far as I can tell. It should generate more interest than a video..... Or interviews.



Your disbelief in the power of requests is also somewhat amusing. Did you know Welcome To The Jungle started receiving airplay on MTV after people started requesting it?

I'm aware that it's not 1987 anymore, but the point is, if there's demand, somebody will fill that demand.



A band like KISS is taking requests from people to determine where they'll tour.

I guess their fans don't think "I'm not gonna do the work of the booking agent. Let them sort out their own tours and I'll just buy the tickets".



How do you determine an artist's popularity today? You used to be able to tell by looking at album/single sales and radio play. Today albums don't sell and it seems like GN'R fans aren't interested in "promoting the album".

How do you know that the band has any fans in area X when there's no proof of them being there?


It's gonna be interesting to see where the band tours.





/jarmo

There's obviously something wrong. If there wasn't, we wouldn't still be speculating as to whether or not a tour will actually take place in 2009. Given the length of time it took for this album to be released, you would think things would have been somewhat more organized. I'm still not convinced Axl was 100% ready for it to come out when it did. I know that he said that he was happy with the final product, but I believe Skewrl's 9 song leak last summer pushed Axl and his mgmt to change gears. I could be wrong, but I think those leaks occuring have alot to do with why that album is on the shelf right now. With 3/4 of the album already on the internet, what other choice did they have?

As far as I'm concerned, the ball was dropped on everyone's part. Universal, BB, and the band all could have done something to help promote this album , but for whatever reason, all seemed content with just letting it fade into obscurity. Personally, I think BB and Universal's lack of interest would have made me try that much harder if I was Axl. I know he isn't big on media interviews, but getting out there a little more was an option that he had. My real concern is that he will have an extremely difficult time ever getting an advance from the label to complete another album. And that?s assuming he actually has an interest in releasing more albums.

I for one value voluntary agents like fans word of mouth more than commercial ones.

democracy that is of the people, by the people, for the people and shall not perish from the earth.

Did you see my point about all these threads at various boards with links to polls and such? I don't think my disbelief in the power of requests is amusing based on how that worked out. Radio station after radio station had their online polls "rigged" (for lack of a better term) by GNR online fans. What did that accomplish?

I guess in the end we just disagree on what/if the fans should be resonsible for making this music successful.

Maybe "responsible" isn't the right word but it is ALL about the fans.  If the fans don't like or want to hear the music, than it's NOT successful.

To be honest, I don't care where

Do you wanna go with GNR?

say yeah!

If the band doesn't get out there to promote their work, it makes it difficult for the fans to know that there is something out there that could be liked.

We the fans already know what is out there and we the fans already know IT IS GREAT!!!

Now it's all about spreading the word by doing stuff like making sure the radio stations give the songs the airplay they deserve!!!

so?  Will you go with this band or not?

I hope somebody took notice.


To me it proved that there are fans who do give a fuck instead of just sitting in front of the screens whining.... So personally I think that's a good sign.  : ok:




No. Because nobody is saying that. It's just your interpretation.

If requesting songs equals the fans are responsible for the promotion, it's always been like that.

It's just a ridiculous assumption to even assume that's what I mean.


Fans can do a lot of positive things. Unfortunately (but not surprising) many choose not to and just focus on the negativity.

These are the people who are never happy. And by saying that I'm being accused of "bashing the fanbase".

Hilarious in itself since that means I'm bashing myself along with all those who do give a fuck and support the band through everything.





/jarmo

You can't be serious.

Last time I checked, Axl called us all idiots for wanting to hear new music from him.

The band has nothing but utter contempt for their fans.

We are some of the greatest and most loyal rock 'n' roll fans on Earth.

We stuck with Axl through years of lies and false promises, no-shows and silence.

We are still here because we love the man and his gift.

HOW DARE YOU INSINUATE THAT THE FANS ARE TO BLAME FOR THIS ALBUM'S LACK OF SUCCESS?

Are you kidding?

I will be the first one signing up to participate in a dialog with the band re: where they would tour, or anything else.

Seriously, /jarmo, you've got to be kidding!

Stop blaming the record co., stop blaming the fans.

My point exactly. Except I think this "spreading the word" should start with Axl and his bandmembers. Being the business professional that I am requires that I frequently travel to try and sell my company's services. Customer referrals are great, but it certainly isn't our top means of promotion.

I'm not saying that a fan can't call the local radio station to request his favorite band's songs, but it is kind of disheartening when the guy responsible for that art didn't even see reason to make it known (a tv, radio interview, something). A good friend of mine has a friend that is a known Chicago rock station DJ. As he's explained over drinks, it takes more than a few caller requests before something is considered "in demand". And according to him, Chinese D was not. The responsibility starts with the artist(s) and label. If they don't "appear" interested, their fans probably won't either.

If we didn't know better, Axl's behaviour (or lack of) would make us think that he was ashamed of the record.

Get a fucking clue and learn how to fucking read.

I never said that.


As far as I know, Axl didn't call the fans idiots. Only those people who demand release dates for the next album as soon as the current one was out.

The amusing thing is that once you speak out against some fans, you get attacked for bashing all fans.  ::)

Point out a little group of people and you're suddenly hating everybody..... Talk about generalizations.

I guess it makes you feel better? The whole "he doesn't hate me, he hates us all!" thing.



If you behave like an asshole and somebody points it out to you, you can always say "that person hates us all!" instead of stopping to think what was actually said.

No, that person only said you're a fucking asshole and doesn't give a fuck about you. Not that everybody is one.



Only a certain kind of people would even be insulted by that quote by Axl. Nobody else would because they know what he said is true and don't feel targeted.





/jarmo

Did you miss all the "chatting" Axl did on the different forums and the interview he did with Billboard?? How about the interviews that Tommy and Brain did that appeared in magazines and online??  How about all the stuff that Richard and Ron have been saying??

I take that to mean that not enough FANS were calling.  That's why I'm suggesting that we the fans need to continue to request them to show the radio stations that they ARE in demand!!!




WTF??  :confused:

Ok, I'll give you that one. that actually makes more sense.
If the band had more fans, they'd be more successful.

All they need to do is figure out a way to get more fans.

I'll break it down for those who have short attention spans:

1. I don't hate all fans.
2. I don't think fans are responsible for promoting the album.
3. I don't think the US sales of the album are due to the fans not promoting the album.
4. I don't think pointing out that there are some assholes in a group of people means you hate everybody.

Thank you.




/jarmo

We're kinda out of the topic in the discussions....
The topic is about were do we go....
- a new beginning
- a phase (and within some time a kind of partially reunion...)
- gn'r is 'dying'

I am bit afraid that Guns is more like to an ending and that ChiDem was like maybe their last album. I am just thinking that because of the lack of (big) public interest, lack of promotional interest, and so on.... It's only us, the hardcore fanbase who still care about GN'R... I hope I'm wrong and they soon announce a tour or a new single (with or without video) or anything else as long it has to do with GN'Rs music.

Maybe I'm just too pessimistic which I normally aren't. We'll see. I hope chidem is a 'new beginning' (new era for Guns N' Roses with new bandmembers, upcomming hits and video's...., new 'sound'/'style',...

..but again I doubt it.

You hope someone took notice? That's the problem; no one did. The fans went out (myself included) and clicked on every poll they could, called every DJ they could, bought the record 2 & 3 times (on average). Nothing happened. The songs weren't played any more often and they certainly didn't catch on and the album didn't sell more.

At the end of the day I love the album. I could honestly care less if anyone else does. I wanted it for years, I got it. As a bonus I sincerely love it save for 2 songs and one of those I don't even dislike all that much, I just don't love it. The only reason I got in this discussion is because (to me) it looked as if people were being talking down to (not necessarily by you) for wondering aloud when a tour and proper promotion. I found that to be funny; the idea that the fans are somehow a reason for success or lack thereof at the moment.

Well then those people are truly ignorant.


Lets say you work at a radio station and have a poll on your site. A band wins the poll. You can just be ignorant and disregard it, or you can look at the results and think "Maybe that band isn't my cup of tea, but they sure seem to have some fans....".




/jarmo

No. I'm well aware he payed a visit to alot of the major fan forums, and I think that's great. Unfortunately, I wouldn't call that a major promotional campaign. Hell, I'm not sure if I'd refer to that as promotion at all. How many "new" or casual fans do you think he reached with those visits? Anyone who is a member of a band's fan forum is probably a pretty diehard fan to begin with. You're really not 'promoting' anything to those individuals. I'm pretty sure every member that frequents these forums already owns the album, or if nothing else, they've at least heard it. So sorry, but I can't count that as Axl doing promotion. It was cool that he visited nonetheless. As far as Brain and Tommy, the only reason that I even knew that they did those interviews was because you posted the articles here. Weren't those interviews featured in magazines that many would consider to be obscure?


I suppose you could look at it as such. But you also have to look at the reality that Chinese D isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. I've personally played it for several friends and quite a few had less than favorable reactions. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I can do all the talking that I like, but if the music just doesn't do it for them, my preaching will be pointless. For example, I can attend a several day seminar where I solicit my company's services; telling individuals all these things we could do to make their business solutions easier. If they decided to give us a shot, and we make a bad first impression, there probably won't be a second chance to make that wrong right. I think the band/label's choice of first single was one of the major killers to this album's success. I'm not saying that I personally think the song is bad, but the reality is, it's not a very catchy, mainstream appeal type of song.

Ok. So whether or not those program directors/DJs are igrorant for ignoring those polls, do you see what I'm saying about how the requesting/ fan promotion aspect is/was having little to no effect?

The biggest problem is with how crooked radio is.

They play music that is safe and will draw the most advertisers and ratings.

Axl not doing radio promo I guarantee hurt GNR's radio airplay.

I remember watching Metallica's "Some Kind Of Monster" and they had to do this really corny spot for a radio station. if not the station pretty much said it wouldn't support their album.

So Axl not doing any radio press, I would imagine pissed off radio personalities and they probably won't play any GNR until they get something in return.

I don't think GnR is dying...I mean, look at NIN. " The Downward Spiral "sold like what, 10 million copies ? Then The Fragile ( which was, imo, their best album to date ) was a flop ( kinda like ChiDem in a way... except that ChiDem, even though it is weirdly considered a flop, sold 3.7 million copies worldwide ) but NIN still exists ten years later. Same for Marilyn Manson's Antichrist Superstar and a shitload of other bands. It's just a bit different for GnR because they were the biggest rock band until 93 and because ChiDem took so long but if you look at the facts :

-Chinese Democracy didn't sell too well in the U.S but didn't bomb at all if you take into consideration worldwide sales ( 3.7 million copies with next to no promotion at all )
-The 2006 and 2007 tours were rather successfull, especially in Europe and Japan

I think it is still pretty good considering the fact that Axl generates so much hate from so-called fans, that badmouthing Axl and his crew had been the popular thing to do since 1998, and that the band consists in musicians unknown from mainstream audiences. I wouldn't worry too much.

 As long as Axl focuses on getting things done, even though it takes a loooooooooooooooong time, and does not say fuck it because of lack of support from his label, things should be fine.

Yes, it has no effect when those ignorant people don't take notice.

But I refuse to think that requests never work. That's a generalization and it's just easy excuse for not having to take part in anything.


I guess it's because I don't think that we just have to settle with whatever is decided for us by the record companies, radio stations, TV channels etc.




Yes, a bunch of politics and egos.





/jarmo

Why does anything surprise you guys and gals anymore? Just enjoy the music and whatever crumbs we get. Its much easier that way. I have been out of the loop over the past few months and have gained a different perspective of the band and the situation. I listen to the album everyday. But in terms of the boards and the train wreck that is the promotion of this masterpiece of an album....forget it. dont bother. Trust me, I used too. Its much easier and less frustrating.

You will never get through to Jarmo and the people that share the same viewpoints of the whole fan/band/promotion/CD era dynamic. Just sit back and raise the volume.

CD is without a doubt an amazing GNR album

and btw

FUCK RADIO
radio is garbage. They asked for years when Axl will release the album...and when he releases it they dont play it. Fuk them.

Just enjoy the album, the tours, the old days(old and new), the band and whatever crumbs they may throw at us along the way.

GNR back at the top is just not in the cards.


Its very simple....and this sums up the whole CD era...

TIMING IS EVERYTHING

One of the problem is that Axl can't decide of everything alone, it's a lot of responsability.

He should give more responsabilities and exposure to the Guitar Players in the band. The Leadership has to be more equilibrated.
In the old band, Slash was very popular, Axl wasn't the only Star in he band. That's why the old band was so popular, there was an identity. The members of the band weren't "employees" or ghosts, they were famous Rockstars and people were attached to everyone of them.

A band is less popular when there's just one famous guy on board. I'd like to see ful songs by the bandmembers.

Put more light on the band. They can take decisions as well.

I really don't see the "radio being crooked" as being an issue. There's just a certain type of music that is considered "mainstream" or "in". Unfortunately, the vast majority of Chinese D didn't meet that criteria. 'TWAT' is hands down my favorite track on the album, but I highly doubt that I ever hear the song on the top 20. I know there were alot of people who thought 'Better' would be the song that had mainstream crossover potential, but as we saw, it didn't ignite the spark that many of us had hoped.

There were plenty of things that caused this album to drop off the Billboard after only a few months, but I don't think criminal radio behavior had anything to do with it.

This is why hiring Dj Ashba was a good move  ;D

He has a rabid female fanbase and that rockstar vibe going about him.  :yes:

I don't have to settle for what radio, etc gives to me that's why I buy and listen to what I like. But again, you're discounting my valid point as an "easy excuse to do nothing". Nevermind the fact that tons of fans from these boards tried hard and it didn't help. Just call it an easy excuse to do nothing?

somewhat sounds familiar.... :hihi:

I think a lot of it comes down to GNR made a Great album in a day and age of singles.

People buy singles not albums these days thanks to the Itune culture.

If this were released 20 years ago, it would've been huge.

Russ, I think you're misunderstanding what jarmo has been saying.

My example: I've been working with a guy who thought the new album was lame because of the title. I said "fuck it, just give it a chance and listen" - believe me, he didn't really listen to a single track of the album. And there's lot of people who did the same: bashed as hell, but didn't even give it a try.

I think this album will need some time to pass through all the prejudice about the name and the negative media. Hard job, but not impossible. But it's out already, so why not try to help with those people? Maybe they like it and spread it to more people. :)

YEAH!

thanks god at least two are on board.

one little vote for a man, one giant leap toward democracy!  :beer:

Well it is easy. "It doesn't work so why bother".

That's as easy as whining about stuff without offering anything constructive.

That's my point.




It's still amazing isn't it?  8)



When the day comes that everybody is happy, maybe then you will.  : ok:

But so far, it's been the same old:

"We want an album" -> Album comes out -> "We want the follow-up!" and/or "we want a tour!"
"We want a tour" -> Band tours -> "We want the album"


Some people are never happy.

So I'm convinced that even if GN'R did interviews with everybody in the whole world, toured 360 days of the year and put out videos for every single song on the album, the above mentioned people would still not be happy.

So after those 360 shows, interviews and 14 new music videos, the question would be "When's the next album coming out?".....




There you go living in your own little bubble again, disregarding facts.

It's true, Axl's the one who's been there since day one and is always the one held responsible for everything involving the band (even when he's not the one making the decision).

But to the point, you're wrong. Here's an example:









/jarmo

Yes...beyond amazing

Wish certain things could have been different along the way, which would have made eveything even more enjoyable...but at the very least...and the most important...the music is amazing....which is why I will forever be an Axl nutswinger(despite how badly things have been handled)

I do agree CD is a great album

There are 2 things that I don't like about it *TIL Solo* and Catcher guitar solos*

I really like the solos etc on all the songs not named above.my mind has changed a lot over the many listens.

 realized I had to accept this as a "NEW" band and had to stop trying to listen to them in comparison to the old band.

the only thing missing for me on CD is the head banging kick ass riffs

but songwise, lyrically, melodically etc it is amazing.

I admitted early this year that the leaks really ruined a lot of the experience for me and I am sticking to the fact I won't let that happen again.

I can't imagine how much I'd still love this CD had I not DL the leaks.

No no. It's not "it doesn't work", it's "it didn't work". And again I should point out that tons of people from these boards tried hard to help.

Now here were are and some folks are wondering if a tour is going to happen at all. When those people wonder aloud when that might be they're yelled at and told they should just call radio stations and make requests.

Doesn't make sense to me.

I think there are a few reasons why GNR is in the type of situation that it is in today. First, I think the ball was dropped by Axl, management, record company, and Best Buy in terms of marketing. AC/DC had a huge amount of publicity in New York before the album came out.

The second was when members were not allowed to speak about the album before it came out. I think this was a huge mistake by Axl since the mainstream public might have been able to connect with the new members before the album came out. I think that's a big issue right now with GNR. Aside from Axl, you really can't connect  with the current members. You don't get that sense of it being a band partly for that and a revolving set of musicians. There just doesn't seem to be unity involved like it was before.

This bring me to my third point in that this doesn't feel like a GNR type of album. Don't get me wrong, it's a good album. However, I regard it as a more of an Axl Rose solo project than a GNR type album. It's missing that hook and killer riffs that made GNR what it is. I'm hoping that the new guitarist, DJ Ashba, brings that element back to GNR.

Anyway that my 2 cents.

"It's a great GN'R record," says Zutaut, "but is there a hit single? Cos without the hit, you can't sell 20 million"

I think that's a popular misconception that the members were forbade by Axl to speak about the album.  Didn't Bumblefoot or somone comment in an interview that they were free to say whatever they wanted?

It didn't work then, so you should just give up and not try again?

Because you're the one who keep implying that requesting songs equals fans doing the promotion work of the record company....






Doesn't make sense to anybody when you make that kind of assumptions and generalizations.  : ok:

It's not about everybody who wonders if there's a tour, it's about a group of people who are never happy.

Now, that's obviously been twisted into meaning everybody. I don't know why.

Either people don't understand English and/or they just don't like being called out.





/jarmo

Why do you constantly resort to thinly veiled insults? Your recent post about "people with short attention spans" and this "people don't understand English or don't like being called out" stuff.

I like how I'm accused of making assumptions and generalizations as well when I'm one of the more positive people around the GNR boards.

Also, I'm not implying that fans requesting songs equals them doing the work of the record company. My original post was about how ridiculous I thought the idea was that everyone should just accept whatever GNR does and never ask questions and on top of that, they should just request songs and that'll make things all better.

Haha! It's not an insult. Just trying to understand why some of you read what I post and then get all kinds of weird meanings out of it. Things that are pretty much pulled out of thin air!

It's kind of insulting to be told that "I'm bashing all the fans" etc. when in fact I'm not doing anything like that!



If you truly believe something like that, you either don't understand English and/or your attention span isn't long enough to remember what I've said within a post!





It's ironic that a positive person as yourself would get such a negative impression from these posts.

I didn't get that impression at all.

I just got the impression that fans can make a difference if they want to, but many chose not to even try.


As I've said previously, the generalization that song requests will solve all problems in the world isn't even funny.

But if certain elements of the so called fanbase were a bit more constructive, things would definitely be better.



/jarmo

What would you like in a forum? Would you like everyone to think the same way and agree all the time? Isn't it better with discussion and banter?

Let me break this down from my perspective once more. I waited for the album, I got the album. I love the album. I hoped for a tour for many reasons. Meanwhile, I was (and still am) enjoying the album. Clicked on the links, requested the songs, turned friends and co-workers on to the record.

Even when the rumors of a tour started and band members started giving hints, I didn't get overly excited. I know "plans change", more so (IMO) with GNR then any other band I've been a fan of. So I'm prepared to sit back and accept what happens.

The only reason I jumped into this (again) is because I totally disagree with the idea that people aren't fans unless they totally agree with everything an artist does all the time. And that rather than voice their opinion, they should just shut up and start calling radio stations to request songs.

There's nothing broad, generalized, out of thin air, negative or deconstructive about that. It's exactly what was said and I disagree with it.

This is the thing that bothers me most. Lack of support from a label is a pretty serious issue, and one that could very well prevent further album releases. Given the period of time that Axl made his label wait on their investment, and then in turn, did absolutely no promotion to support it, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he never receives any type of financial support from them again. In fact, I'd say that's almost guaranteed.

If this other material that he has is incomplete, that means he'd have to tour and complete it on his own dime. Just like the label insisted back in 2005. So, the longer that he doesn't tour (for whatever reason) the longer the delay until the next release. Personally, I think if Axl and his band do continue to make new music, their releases might be more underground, or at least more along the lines of the way Izzy releases his material. I just don't see the demand  being there anymore to warrant high budget support from any label.

Generalizations again.



Great.  : ok:




We went from requesting songs is compared to doing the promotion work, to requesting songs equals real fan. Awesome!

What's next?


And then you get upset when I break it down to you.


The whole point has been that if people actually used some of that energy they use for just whining about shit, that they have no control over anyway, into something positive, things would be better.


/jarmo

No, not generalizations... questions. Those were questions. I asked what you would like in a forum and then gave an example that you probably disagree with in hopes that you'd actually answer the question.

As far as people maybe not being a fan if they don't request songs, that is the vibe I got from the original post that caused my reaction. Maybe I was wrong? Maybe that wasn't the intent. Not sure. Either way, it certainly sparked what I feel is an interesting debate.

Also, I apologize if I gave the impression that you're upsetting me. I feel that I simply have a different point of view than you and I'm just expressing it.

Was it a serious question?

Sorry, it looked like a joke to me.



Yeah, maybe you were wrong.


As I said earlier, it seems like every time somebody says something about a certain group of people within a bigger group, those people feel targeted and get defensive with their "they hate us all" and/or "they say we're not real fans" lines.

To simplify that.

If you have 10 M&M's and you point out that two of them are green, those green ones start yelling "he says were all green!" or "he says we're not real M&M's!" because the person thinks green M&M's aren't as "real" as the rest of the colors in the bag.

If M&M's could talk. ;)




/jarmo

Again with an attempted insult. Yes it was a serious question and I'm sorry you missed that.

Also, I've never felt that I need anyone else's approval to be viewed as a fan. But that wasn't even what we were talking about. I think you've mistaken me as some sort of spokesperson for people who feel you attack them.

You keep saying you're not offended and you keep getting offended in every other post.

Weird.


No, I don't take a question like "do you want everybody to agree on everything" seriously.

I'm sorry. I didn't think anybody would think that I'm that naive. To think that there's a chance that everybody will agree on every single thing.


I guess it's another one of your "impressions" of what I've said.

Since I've made a point in saying I prefer if people were constructive, I guess in your opinion it means that I think everybody should agree on everything.




Good for you.

You shouldn't.


Because, as I've said many times when I've been attacked for that thing, we all have our opinions on what a fan is. I have mine, you have yours.

Apparently I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I think certain people aren't the kind of people who I would consider "a fan".

 :hihi:




/jarmo

Pointing out that you're constantly attempting insults doesn't mean I'm upset or offended, it's simply pointing it out. And the reason why I ask such a question is because you seem to label many people who ask questions as "whiners" and before you get excited with the "generalizations" label again, remember that it's my person observation.

Because it's a lie.

If I wanted to insult you, I would say it.  : ok:




Asking questions makes you a curious person.

Asking the same questions over and over, especially if they've been answered, doesn't.


But you have to admit that some people (who see themselves as fans) have a tendency to put a negative spin on everything.



/jarmo

I guess I took you saying that some people have short attention spans or can't understand English, as attempted insults. When people don't see my point, I don't assume or guess that they're dumb, I generally try to explain myself better, but that's just me I guess.

As for some people who put a negative spin on everything; those people are all over the world. And of course there's gonna be some (many) in the GNR community who are the same way. But I honestly feel that this subject of "Where do we go now?" is a legit question on the part of concerned fans.

I'd like nothing more then to see my favorite performer of all time out with his band doing what I feel he does better than anyone else. So threads like this interest me where people discuss what may or may not happen. The only reason I felt the need to get involved is because people were literally getting yelled out for their opinion and being told that if they'd just shut up and request songs, everything would be all better. I replied with my opposing opinion and now here we are still talking about it as if it's there's some way my opinion could be "wrong".

I didn't assume people were dumb. Just that they might not understand the English words I use. I have to start assuming something since nothing seems to get through. How many times can you explain the same thing over and over again?

A lot of smart people don't speak English.

Implying that I've called people stupid, that's nice....

If I want to call somebody stupid, I'll point it out to that person.  : ok:




Of course it's a legit question. We all would love to know what the next step is.

Unfortunately, some people feel the need to twist shit around.

Somebody asks "what's next" and another one is quick to point out how everything sucks and everything has failed etc.

There, discussion over.


That's the reason why I've pointed out that it'd be nicer if we didn't have that kind of shit, and instead had some kind of constructive discussions.

Just whining doesn't help anybody. That's the bottom line.






/jarmo

constantly attempting insults by the mod himself in almost every reply in here is not something i'd call too positive and constructive. it leaves some negative vibe. maybe you could calm down a bit too, dont ya think,  Jarmo?

This coming from the same person who claims I'm bashing fans.  : ok:

Next time you want to make up fairy tales, keep me out of them please. Thanks.



/jarmo

this discussion would end in the definiton of bashing and fans again. but i'm sure you got the point with the negative vibe. Thanks  : ok:

So,
where do you go now?

You would know about that vibe, now wouldn't you....

You don't exactly come across as Mr Positive.





/jarmo

Oh ok. So when you reference the "English speaking" thing, it was an insult targeted at non English speaking people, not just general people on your board.

I get it that "whining doesn't help anybody" I truly do. But at the same time, it's hard to be a fan of this band and have the fans be the only people who truly seem to care what goes on with it.

I'm one of those whose first language isn't English. So you're saying I was talking about myself?

This just keeps getting more and more fun!

Are you serious about this too, because I definitely see some humor in it. No offense!


No, I was talking about anybody who has trouble understanding basic English for whatever reason it might be (language barrier, short attention span, unwillingness to understand etc.).


I don't discriminate.  :P


What's so offensive about writing a numbered list to those who do have trouble understanding and/or short attention spans?

Is it the same thing that's offensive when I point out that not everybody claiming to be a fan is an actual fan (in my opinion)?

 :hihi:



/jarmo

No it's not the same. See because attempting to insult some folks intelligence and calling them a non-GNR fan are two different things.

It's the same thing since I didn't do neither in the way you described. Pointing out that some fans aren't fans in my opinion is similar to pointing out that maybe some have trouble understanding the posts. You're not talking about everybody, you're talking about a small group. Yet you like to make it seem like I insulted everybody.



They're not the same literally of course. That's like saying black and white is the same color.

You only managed to get those impressions from my posts.  So both fall under the lies category. : ok:



By the way, are you still being serious?





/jarmo

I never realized that being a fan of Axl's band was such serious business.   :hihi:

While I personally don't want to get involved with the flame debate of "what makes a bigger fan", I would like to re-iterate that everyone here probably is a fan to some degree. Some just take the responsibilities of being a fan more serious than others.

I'll be the first to admit that I wish 'Chinese Democracy' would have received better reception. But it didn't, so no reason to piss and moan as to why that didn't happen. Like I said in an earlier post, I think the decision to release the album was made fairly quickly, by all parties involved. And I think that reason had alot to do with Cogill making 3/4 of the album available online last summer. From there, I think it was just a "let's hurry up and get it out there" approach. Like Axl said, it was almost as if "the record company wanted to wash their hands of the situation." That's not to say that Axl wasn't happy with the final product, but I think Cogill's actions left Axl and the record company with very little time and options.

I don't think the leaks hurt the actual sales nearly as much as it hurt proper promotional efforts being put in place. But that's not to say that I think Axl would have handled the situation all that much differently. I don't think he ever had any real intentions to sit down with Letterman or Leno to discuss the album. I think he was well aware those interviews would have turned into " so, what's your relationship with Slash these days" type questions. I do think Azoff, Universal, and Best Buy may have put some additional efforts into promoting it had there been more time.

In the end, it obviously wasnt the fans responsibility to promote this album. And I don't think the admin here was ever really suggesting that it was. I think we, as fans, should be concerned about the prospect of future releases coming from Axl and his band. If he doesn't have more material that is finished, I think he's going to have a hard time receiving advances from his label to complete that material. And if he isn't touring to generate funds to complete that material, it could be a long, long time before we see another album baring the GNR name sitting on the store shelves.

Of course I'm being serious. I understand that you disagree with what I'm saying but continually asking if I'm serious isn't really getting us anywhere.

And just to be clear; I'm "lying" because I got a certain impression from posts?

It's not easy to know!

Because some of the "accusations" have been quite ridiculous. Just my opinion. Don't get upset.

So I figured it was all a joke. That would explain the ridiculous accusations.




It's a lie if it's not true isn't it?




/jarmo

Again; not getting upset. There's very little anyone on the internet could do to upset me. And could you clarify where I've accused you of anything outside of obvious attempts at insults?

There were two, you accused me of making fun of non-English speakers and calling people stupid.

None of which were "obvious attempts at insults".

More to do with the fact that I read a lot of ridiculous accusations from people who see what they want to see in my posts.

You need to let it go.

You can't keep repeating something after it was explained to you that your skewed interpretation is incorrect.

 : ok:



There's no insult in my post:




In my opinion, it's easier to read that list than to have me write a long post detailing those same things.



By the way, I still think you're taking the piss out of this whole thing...

What other reasonable explanation is there for your need to prove that I'm "insulting people"?





/jarmo

Good back and read. I never said you were making fun of people who don't speak English. I said you weren't making your point clear enough (or at all for that matter) so you resorted to insinuating that those who disagree with you are don't understand English or must have short attention spans.

I made a numbered list for those who like to take a post of mine and twist shit around.

I made a comment that when I point out that there's an unhappy bunch of people among the so called fanbase, those same people claim I hate the whole GN'R fanbase. To me it seems like these people don't seem to understand English.

To me, with my limited English knowledge, it makes very little sense who you can interpret singling out a (small) group within a bigger group into meaning the whole big group!

That's like saying "I hate Poison" into meaning "I hate music". It makes no fucking sense. Does it make sense to you?


There's no fucking insults involved! It's got nothing to do with agreeing with me or not, it's got to do with people accusing me of shit that are nothing but lies.

It's also funny how you're never insulted, yet here you are trying to convince everybody that I'm insulting people to the left and right.

You gotta be fucking kidding me....



To those who are easily insulted, I apologize, even though I didn't insult you in the first place. But apparently some claim I insulted people even thought they're not insulted themselves and they know better than myself what I meant.

So apologies for accidentally insulting you via second hand invalid interpretations of my posts.





/jarmo

talk about english comprehension,


I still don't get why this reply to that post.  ???  looks absolutely random to me.

coming soon when the merch is up @ the official site, maybe?

You're so eager to buy goods with pictures of the band and cd.  :yes:

There again, I didn't say you succeeded in insulting anyone, I said you attempted to. And again you're dancing around the issue that your remarks ("people with short attention spans", "those who don't understand English") were aimed at those who disagree with you.

I could honestly care less what you're opinion of the fan base is. But I do know that this whole discussion happened because I disagreed with someone else and you jumped in to lump me in with the "whiners" who don't want to do anything "constructive". I started to make a case for why I don't believe I fall into either of those categories. Along the way these (what I feel are) general insults popped up and I found it amusing that you had to keep resorting to them.

I didn't insult or even attempt to insult anybody.

If I think somebody's an idiot, I will say so. I don't need to post it in a way that you need to translate my posts to those who were supposed to be insulted.





Stop twisting it around.

It was aimed at those who take all kinds of meaning out of my posts.

Yes, some of them disagree with me, but that wasn't exactly the point.

I don't like being told what my posts mean by people who obviously have no clue about what they meant.

I make a post and have somebody say that I meant shit that I never even thought about. When it happens over and over again, you start to think.





Making shit up about me in order to amuse yourself. That's priceless.


The reason why I disagreed with you is because you took somebody else's post to the extreme. Fans requesting songs means the fans do all the promotional work? Please...


I'll leave you with an example:

You're an idiot with short attention span <- insulting
This post is for those who have short attention spans <- not insulting.
This post is for the idiots on the board <- insulting


What's next, singling out people by age is insulting too? How about gender?

Would it be ok to post "This is for the female posters" or is that insulting to point out that some are male and others female?

 ::)



I apologized for allegedly insulting those people.

You make shit up about me, I apologized for it even though it's 100% bullshit and only exists in the heads of those who don't agree with me. What else do you want from me?





/jarmo

^^^Flowers would be a nice touch!! ;D

Yeah, maybe that's what they're waiting for.




/jarmo

I didn't make anything about you. No matter how many times you say otherwise. You posted things that I took as you trying to insult people. No twisting, no fantasy, no lies, just opinion of what you posted.

It's been explained to you, I've apologized for something I didn't do and you still go on about it, claiming I insulted people!

Nobody has said they were insulted, yet you keep pointing it out over and over again.



This is truly ridiculous and I hope you're amused.

What else do you want?




Maybe you can apologize to the rest of the board for wasting everybody's time now.

Even though you didn't necessarily do it. But since it seems like we can accuse people to the left and right of things they didn't say/do, why not.....  ::)



/jarmo

One more time; it's my opinion of what you said. And I sincerely doubt anyone's spent any time reading this that they feel is wasted.

 :hihi:

I have explained it to you and your opinion is still the same. You know what I meant better than I do.......



Anybody else I can apologize to for your mistakes?

Because, at the end of the day, this whole thing is a mistake by you when you tried "translating" my words.


I hope you're amused!  : ok:




/jarmo

You said some people either had short attention spans or must not understand English well. My opinion (not translation) of that was that it was an attempted insult. I wasn't aware know opinions could be mistakes.

Wow!

Show me some proof that everybody on the Internet have degrees in the English language and nobody suffers from short attention spans.  :P

Maybe it's my opinion that not everybody seems to be able to understand enough English, or pay enough attention, to make it through my posts!

So now by your definition, since it's my opinion, it can't be wrong!

Happy now?



I have friends who'd rather read a numbered list with points than read a normal post.

But oddly enough, they're not this sensitive about it. Go figure.



My opinion on your opinion is that you must be pretty bored!

In my opinion, you're only doing this to start shit.

Once again, it's my opinion of your posts and I can't be wrong.  :)



What else could I make up about your posts? In my opinion, you hate anybody who tries to be constructive and you like to bash the real fans who support the band.

In my opinion, you try to validate bashing the band with "I bought so and so many records". Like there's some kind of secret formula that you have to buy multiple copies to prove you're a real fan. In my opinion you think that it's ok to attack the band and the band's real fans because you spent X amount of Dollars on merchandise. It's like, spend some money and you get a free pass to Bashville. Nobody can question you because you got the receipts to prove your fan status!



Who knew assumptions were that easy to make....

Doesn't really matter if the facts are wrong or right, it's my opinion so it must be right. :)



/jarmo

I like how on one hand you post "if I wanted to insult, I'd just insult" but then you're spending all this time trying to act as if you were being literal with the "English" and "short attention span" remarks. As if you were somehow genuinely concerned that those reading your posts must literally suffer from one of those issues if they disagree with or don't understand your points.

I'm sorry that you feel that someone disagreeing with you is because they're trying to start shit. It's too bad that you came away from this whole discussion with that opinion.

Part sarcasm, part general confusion.





It's easy to get the wrong opinion when you let your imagination work for you instead of taking in facts.  ;)



/jarmo

This thread has jumped the shark!  Well that happened a long time ago.  Hence why it has been moved I presume.

Flowers and assault rifles!

FAWK YEAH!!!!

AMERICA!!!

It's amazing to me that you really feel that when people disagree with you they must be making stuff up.  :hihi:

It's amazing that you think you know what I think.

If you seriously think that I'm out to bash all GN'R fans or insult non-English speakers, you need to get a fucking clue and fast.




/jarmo

Here we are again.  Someone voices an opinion about something and it turns into several pages of "discussion" and goes on for days.  This time is not as heated as the last go-round, but similar in many ways.  It goes on for so long and becomes so off topic that it ends up earning its own little topic in the administrative area.  Every single post is pulled out and put into a new topic here, with a title that appears to be aimed at insulting the poster whose response to something seemed to be the catalyst.   Maybe it's just coincidence, however I couldn't help but notice that in both cases the entire "back and forth and back and forth again" started after a response to one poster in particular.  Interesting.      

In any event, since it's been mainly a discussion between two posters, its the sort of thing that really would be better off conducted via PMs, rather than subjecting everyone else to it, don't you think?  

We really should start having these fights in person, on public access TV. 

Wow. Now who's putting words in who's mouth? Sorry buddy, but again I don't think disagreeing with you qualifies me as needing to "get a fucking clue and fast". Sorry you're so upset over a difference of opinion.


You're probably right about this. But since the topic got split and moved to a whole different area there's very little chance of most people going to find it which is probably what the point of moving it was.

Very interesting.  :o

Be careful what you say, anything you say can be twisted into meaning you've insulted somebody who doesn't even feel insulted!

 :hihi:


Maybe you can explain why it's ok for russtcb to tell fans to get a grip? But it's not ok for me to respond to that kind of stuff?

Thanks.



When somebody makes accusations in public about what I do or what I apparently meant, I will post my response in public.

I don't need others to tell me that I'm doing/saying the opposite of what I actually did/said!


I don't give a fuck if you agree with me or not, but when you start making accusations such as "you're insulting non-English speakers", "you're calling people idiots" or "you bash GN'R fans", you will get a reply to set things straight.

There's plenty of other sites where you can post shit about me, without getting a response from me, and have people agree with you about how horrible I am.



Also, this isn't one of those sites where being constructive and supportive of GN'R is frowned upon.

When I see somebody making extreme exaggerations about something as simple as requesting songs in order to belittle the fan(s), I will post what I think.


Many of you seem to love the idea of freedom of speech when it means you can get away with posting anything you want. No matter how ridiculous it is.

But when I say something, you feel insulted and you'd rather see me shut up.

Now that's interesting!



I said "If you".

Meaning anybody who thinks that, needs to get a fucking clue.


In addition, I didn't fucking say that people disagreeing with me needs to get a clue.

You keep making shit up.

I said people who think I BASH GN'R FANS or MAKE FUN OF NON-ENGLISH SPEAKERS, need to get a fucking clue.

Nowhere did I specify it with "people who disagree with me". You made that part up!


Also, it's funny how you single out me telling people to get a clue while it's ok for you to tell people who think requesting songs is a nice idea to "get a grip".


Why do you keep making shit up about me?

Is it funny? What's your motivation behind all this?

What?

I'm curious to know why you keep doing it even after all the explanations and apologies.






No, not upset.

More surprised that you'd rather keep going on about something I explained to you and apologized for even though I didn't do what you accuse me of.


I was assuming an apology and the explanation would make you happy, but no. You keep going on and on about.



So, can you tell me what I'm thinking of now?





/jarmo

A lot of times when I've posted something on a forum, I find that another person's response will totally twist what I thought I tried to say.  Unfortunately, I don't think it's that uncommon.  I think it happens because we don't have the benefit of all the other things that go into a "face-to-face" discussion, like facial expressions, what one's personality really is like etc. so things end up sounding different because it can be hard to completely understand exactly what the other person actually meant.   Yes, it's right there in black and white, so should be easy to read and understand, but can also be easily misconstrued because it's just written words alone. For instance, with your "very interesting" and shock smiley above, I'm not really sure if you're expressing actual realization of what's most likely a crazy coincidence or whether you're being sarcastic.  I don't think you're being sarcastic, but you could be.

Of course it's ok to respond.  It's just that it goes on and on (and both continue to respond) and then it seems like people start getting upset and has the potential to get ugly.  And unfortunately, I think some of it happens based on what I said above.   For instance, both of you saw insults in things that I didn't necessarily see or read in the same way. 

Doesn't matter, I guess. I just hate seeing people argue and get upset and then things start getting a little crazy.  Then again it's an internet forum so I may as well get used to it.  Guess that's just the way it is. 

True. I'm aware of that too.

It's one thing to have somebody misinterpret your opinion on a particular subject, but to be accused of insulting and bashing people, that's something else in my opinion.

For example, I don't really care if people think I can't listen to the other GN'R albums besides Chinese Democracy because they feature former members of the band.

Its wrong and all, but it really doesn't bother me in the same way somebody claiming (for example) that I hate GN'R fans, "bothers" me. I don't think bother is the right word... It really has no effect on my day to day life, so bother isn't the word I'm looking for here.

But hopefully you get the point.





/jarmo

I said "get a grip" in response to a post that I felt was acting as if requesting songs was all the fans should do. As if asking questions about where we are and where we're going wasn't acceptable. Then all these shenanigans ensued between you and I.

My motivation for continuing is that I truly believe we're having a communication error. Not saying you're wrong and I'm right or vice versa.

For the record, I never said you "hate fans" or anything like that. I just (honestly) felt that your "english speaking" and "short attention span" remarks were attempted insults. Not even directed at me which is why I kept saying I wasn't offended or upset.

In short; you said somethings that I felt were attempted insults and you're saying I totally took what you said wrong. That's it in a nutshell right?

Yes.


I never said you claim I hate fans, but somebody else did.

Along with your accusations of me insulting people, all of the above statements are wrong.




/jarmo

Who's on first?

Yes he is.

 :beer:

Well played all around.

You just don't get the facts straight...Slash killed Axl's Dog...LOL :drool:

English or whatever language, your poor comprehensive faculty is never something you can be proud of. :smoking:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/98545x.jpg)

We're talking Jerry, who has time for the English Language?  Jerry Jerry...God he is a nut but he even admits to his own manipulation of guest just as Maury does....They will be in the same studios in CT. soon.  Jerry admits to being a sort of hack while he says Maury is a great guy and excellent scratch golfer at 70 years of age.  He sure doesn't look 70!

I'll flash for beads ;D

(http://mardigraszone.com/store/images/BigBeadsCategory(Jason).jpg)

Are we nitpicking so much on Jarmo's own opinions?

I don't agree with all things but enjoy the site because it actually tries to be a fansite too.





Should we feel lucky or... :confused:

yea but the show is not aired in my area...not to mention I rarely watch TV.