Here Today... Gone To Hell!

You may remember I was the guy who started the "I'm new to GN'R" thread a month or so back...

After getting AFD and the UYI albums a few months ago, I finally went out and bought the new record last week.

At first, I was disappointed. Initially, I didn't think it sounded like a 'real' band in the way the old albums did. And whilst the album has grown on me considerably since I first got it, I stand by that one criticism. It sounds as if all the band members recorded their parts seperately - most of the tracks sound very pieced together. Listen to a song like Locomotive - that is the sound of a band jamming, a group of musicians being engrossed in the moment and seeing where it takes them. I don't get this impression from any tracks on the new album.

That's my one and only gripe though. The opening three tracks are probably their strongest set of consecutive album tracks since the opening trio on AFD. The title track is so cool and grungey, Shackler's Revenge is a definate album highlight (is it true Buckethead wrote this and if so, why isn't he credited on the liner notes?) and Better has a lot of single potential.

Other highlights for me are Madagascar (what a powerful epic that one is) and There Was A Time. The only track which doesn't really move me is Sorry. Axl's somewhat contrived vocal delivery irritates me on this one for some reason.

I'm still not entirely convinced the new GN'R are a real unit in the way the old group were. Axl's name comes first on every single track on the songwriting credits. And none of the others get a lead vocal either.

But as an album, it's a more than worthy addition to their excellent back catalogue - which is undoubtedly an achievement in itself.

Trust me, Chinese Democracy will continue to grow on you. Although I slightly agree with you about how the band doesn't always sound like a cohesive unit. But what can you expect when you've been working on a song for many, many years, with various musicians coming and going? I think the song it's most evident on is "Catcher in the Rye," especially at the end with Axl singing over Bumblefoot's solo. Instead of complementing one another, they both seem to be fighting for dominance. That's the one song I wish was more stripped back.

I don't know yet where I rank Chinese Democracy among the AFD and UYI albums. It's still too early to tell. Even though I think AFD is their most flawless album, UYI 1 has always been my personal favorite.

Locomotive, a band jamming? Then why is Slash playing both lead and rythm? Skilled that one, and Izzy isn't even on it.  I think that's one of the most pieced together Guns song if any.

Bucket is credited, "Caroll"

Listen a few more times, get a few in there with headphones, and then get back to us....

That's always how I felt.

I think the reason I was initially disappointed is because CD is so different from the other albums and it took some getting used to. And also (dare I say it), I do miss Slash's solos and Izzy and Duff's songwriting contributions.

Anyway, that was then and this is now. Axl's voice is still superb - perhaps even better than back in the day. The songwriting is still of an excellent standard and most importantly the passion is still there.

One of my personal favourite parts of the new record is Buckethead's crazy guitar work at the end of Shackler's Revenge. It's buried quite a bit in the mix, but it's truly superb.

truth is, u are actually listening to Two separate bands, so of course it is gonna sound very different.

CD is an album that takes some listens to fully get cause it has a lot of stuff going on. I remember hating Scraped when I first heard it, and now I think it is one of the top 3 songs on the CD.


Only songs on CD I never cared much for are Better and IRS.

the rest I have liked a lot at one time or the other.

Catcher was my fave leak but Bumble's solos kill it for me now.

Well it may not have been recorded live or anything, but the band sounds like a unit... they sound tight and they're complementing eachother well.... that's more what I meant...

maybe it due to the fact you can hear every part on cd clearly. save the 'murmur' on riad of course.

I agree that may be the case with AFD, even though it's probably not as "live" as people belive. I'm not a musician myself so I can't really say what is what, but I'm sure that on record it's more than just two guitars on there. Sure there is a more live feel there. For me that is mostly because of the rythm unit, of Steven, Duff and Izzy more than anything. For me, Illusions are "destroyed" by Matt Sorum, he hasn't the groove Steven and Frank has noor the skills of Brain
And it got worse with Gilby on Incident if he is to be heard on there at all ???

Chinese Democracy didn't desappoint me at all, because my hopes were not too high. That caused that I enjoyed the record. I mean I never hope a record as great as Appetite and Illusions because I know that without the former musicians in the band were impossible, on the other hand I knew that Axl Rose still was there, that's enough to have a very good record, and I got it.

There's something else I don't get it although, as people says that Chinese Democracy it sounds like old Guns. No way, the only thing in common is the Axl's voice, but all the rest (guitar solos, guitar riff, bass player, drums, etc..) it has nothing to do with the sound of the old Guns. I'm not saying it's better or worst, just different, very different.

There was never an intention to sound like the old band

i think mattyjam's answer was pretty mature for a new fan.

I know. Just I wanted express that I am not agree with people that think that way.

that's bumblefoot not buckethead

Without hearing the leaks, you might've actually liked the track.

Or wait, not you. Somebody else might have.  :-X



/jarmo

Yeah, Jarmo, I agree the leaks did have an affect on some.


RIR 3 version of The Blues is still my fave version and the CD version just doesn't make me feel the same way as that one did.


Im not sure on Catcher.

The song is perfect lyrically, vocally, melodically, but the solo's just don't match the songs. There is one part when Axl sings "Then the voices went away" there is one guitar lick in there that is awesome and elevates the song

the rest just doesn't take the song higher as guitar solos should. TWAT is a perfect example of a guitar solo being perfect for the song, even "Better' that solo really takes the energy of that song to another level.


With Catcher, Axl is singing some amazing profound lyrics, but u don't get the full power of it cause Bumble's solo is just too high in the mix and just doesn't go with the song.

One of the most perfect solos on CD is on  "Sorry" that right there is one of those solos that make your hair stand up. Even the CD solos are great and If The World is just amazing.

It worked that way for me. I didn't hear the leaks at all. And I like all songs in CD, don't have any complaint.
When you all talk about comparisons to the leaked versions, I just don't have any idea what you are saying.
I was bothered by this and tried listening to the leaks after hearing the actual album (I had them at home but never bothered to check them out).
Well, I couldn't even finish listening the first one, the quality is too bad and I have no patience to be studying whatever is inside a bad quality record.
So I keep thinking ChiDem is awesome, because I'm not comparing it to something that was a sketch. What is out now is what GnR wanted to give us.

More on topic, like everyone has said, Chinese Democracy grows on you. Keep listening to it, open minded, and you'll be surprised to find yourself in love with it one day and then forever  ;)

The first couple times I heard CITR on the album I missed the Brian May demo version, but after awhile I just accepted it.  I haven't listened to the demo since and I've heard the intended version countless times and now I LOVE IT!  I think Ron does a fine job on the solo and it compliments Axl quite well.

Thanks for your honesty and giving it a shot.  It's always nice to see new fans coming through the doors.  Keep listening, the album SHOULD grow on you.  There's a lot to digest in there, it's not your average run of the mill rock album. 

It already has grown on me loads since I first bought it. I've been playing it everyday. I can see it's going to become one of those few albums that I'll want to give repeated listens to for a long long time.

Listen to There Was A Time and focus on the part where the band members come together to sing:

"there was a time, didn't want to know at all...." (and Axl sings above them, the second time).

There is a real sense of unity there.

Also, listening to the CD is one thing - an awesome experience in its own right.

Seeing the band live is another! This is where you get that live experience of the musicians feeding off eachother!

If you get the opportunity to catch them live sometime - GO!  : ok:

The second they touch ground on UK soil, I'm there!

I agree about Sorum ive been playing drums for 25 years and i always felt he was to machine/robot like , yes he had good skills but he didnt groove. Adler was basic with limited skills but his feel was perfect for Appetite, and Brain is simply the best drummer GnR have had

In UYI albums the band members recorded their parts separately too. I thing that the sound of Chinese Democracy it's similar to the UYIs albums.

I agree!!

Although I have to say, Sorry is my Favorite because of Axl's vocal delivery.

MattyJam, not sure if you've covered this, but how/why did you just recently become a fan of GNR?  Am I to assume you were too young to appreciate AFD, Lies, and UYI's when they came out?  What made you give them a try NOW?  Great timing by the way, just in time for CD to be released.  You could've joined this party 9 years ago and waited patiently along with all of us.  Of course you did miss out on a couple kick ass tours.  Definitely see them in person the next time they hit your area.  I can't recommend it enough.

Personally, i blame the alphabet. Damn you alphabet, and your soup

Why is it a big deal if some fans like some demos over the finals? Its just like the old material, some fans prefer the stripped down Illusion demos to the finals and vice versa. Im sure 99% of the people who prefer the demos bought the album regardless.

The only demo that I prefer is Catcher. I dont mind the solo but the mix during the epic/classic lyrical outro is way too high/cludded. The demo overall has a more peaceful pace and vibe to it.

I dont think its a bad thing if people prefer certain outakes over the finals. What matters is that they bought the album.

Because the leaks were not the songs that the artist wanted you to hear?

So something unfinished becomes the measurement for quality all of a sudden.




/jarmo

But what is the big deal? Are people not buying CD because of that? That is what fans of any band do. They always have preferences over what a band does over a period of time. Didnt the Beatles once release an album of demos? Im sure other bands do as well.  Its not that big of a deal.

So if people prefer a version of The Blues, CD, or Madagascar from 2001-2006 they arent allowed to do so because it wasnt a finished version? Then why did they play it live?

The big deal is that music was stolen from the band and then released over the Internet (without permission).

The big deal is that this criminal act is now being investigated by the FBI.

If the band wants to play their own material live at concerts it is their choice. If it wasn't for the leaks we all could have heard the music at concerts alot sooner.

I can assure you that most people aren't buying the album just so they can compare the leaks and the final product, if that is what you are insinuating.

GN'R also has an older fan base who DO NOT take part in the internet/downloading culture.



Why have the signature that you have, if you can't understand what the big deal is.
"our hearts, lives and passions have been put into this project..."

Well, the "big deal" is that you "wait" for something for years. Then you get your hands on an unfinished version and you listen to it for a long period of time. You get attached to it (same thing can happen to albums/songs that were released ages ago). It becomes the version of the song that you love.

Along comes the album with its finished versions as they were intended to be.

Can you judge it for what it is? No, because you're already attached to the unfinished versions and everything is compared to those. Those were your first taste of the songs.


Now, if you had heard the album first and then the leaks. Then you might have a point. In your case, I know that didn't happen.



I don't know if you understood that the leaks weren't meant to be out there? So basically you're judging something that the artist didn't want the public to judge in the first place.

I happen to think it's the artist's right to decide when the audience can see/hear his/her work. It's not up to some attention seeker no matter how hard he/she tries to act like a Robin Hood.



Then of course you have those who like to whine about everything so obviously the album can't be as good as the leaks to them.





So now it's about live versions? Is that the excuse now?

Does anybody actually say they prefer the live versions to the studio versions on the album?

That's apples and oranges....





/jarmo

Im not saying that isnt a big deal

Im not saying people are buying the album to compare demos and leaks. Im saying that its not a big deal if a FAN prefers a particular version of a song over another. 99% of the time that same fan will have went out and bought the album( in most cases, bought multiple copies). If they prefer an older version of a song or the final shouldnt matter. Thats what fans do. Now if that same "fan" who heard the leaks and based their decision not to buy the album because they didnt like the songs then that is different.

Well your in the minority because I think that the majority of people, young or old, who have been coming to these sites during the dark years, dloaded the leaks. Given the situation I dont think they should be looked down upon because of that.(as long as they followed through and purchased the album)


why not? plus I think Axl was talking about the whole band history when making that quote




I wont quote all of your post because the poster before you basically has the same theme. So my answers to that can be applied to yours...

Yea some people prefer some of the live versions to the actual final cut. I think with money on the line I would showcase the Rio version of Madagascar to the final. Doesnt mean I dont like the final. I like the final cut of Madagascar as well as the rest of the album.

I dont know how much more I can show my appreciation for CD then by saying its at worst the 2nd best GNR album ever. It might not have the radio hits that the Illusions had but in terms of an album as a whole, I think CD is better than the Illusions. Too much filler on the Illusions whereas CD really doesnt have any.

WIth that being said, that doesnt mean I cant prefer a particular demo or take on a song that the band did compared to the final or vice versa. Just like I prefer the 2002 lineup to any gnr lineup..old or new...does that mean I think the Illusions or AFD blow or the old band blows?

Does Axl really have a problem with the fans who dloaded the leaks? I doubt it. If he did why would he agree to play a show that he said happened because of  "downloading motherfuckers".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQZTDywlJW8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQZTDywlJW8)
listen from 30 seconds on
 Some people here like to twist what Axl says so that they can elevate their fan status or something. The sooner that stops the better.

Yeh, in Axl's words you are "downloading muthafuckers"  ::) He took the opportunity to tell you all exactly what he thought about it.


Look, dude if you prefer to listen to some non-mastered music that is not the finished product, then that is your choice.

But you are really denying yourself the final product listening experience that Axl really wanted his fans to hear.

Nothing comes close to hearing the music as it is meant to be heard on a good system.

Does Axl really have a problem with the fans who dloaded the leaks? :no: If he did why would he agree to play a show that he said happened because of  "downloading motherfuckers".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQZTDywlJW8

nice try though  : ok:

show me where I say I prefer listening to non mastered music over the finsihed product.

Well, if you are not saying that you prefer listening to the leaks over the final versions,

why are you on here arguing and taking a stance that seems to reflect/validate a preference for some leaks over the final versions??


So you are just arguing in general, for the sake of it, on the behalf of other fans who may prefer the leaks then?

How noble of you.

I prefer listening to as much gnr music as I can...no matter the form or stage of development.

As to why Im in this thread its because I dont think Axl was commenting towards people who dloaded the leaks like you and some others are suggesting. I hate when I see people try to reject a fans opinion on GNR just because Axl might have a different take or they twist what Axl says to fit their arguments and fan status.

No. You just want to know what the big deal is.




That's so convenient!

I didn't even bring up album sales but yet that is your defense. "I bought the album too!"....





Nobody's stopping you from preferring anything. Doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

If you read the whole quote of Axl's answer, you'll see that there's more to it than just liking something you weren't supposed to hear in the first place.





Some people here don't like it when Axl says something that hurts their feelings.




Which comment? The one in the Q&A was a leak related question! He even mentions the word fan in his answer.




Doesn't he basically say that the whiners are considering themselves to be fans?

Ironically, you and others keep attacking anybody who dares to question what kind of a fan you are.

Those who are supportive of the band are labeled "ass kissers" while those who are constantly whining are the "real fans". Well, at least that's how they see themselves. The ones who spend their time and energy trying to bring the band, and everybody who supports them down, are the "real fans". Where's the logic in that?




Is that you feeling guilty and trying to justify your choices?






/jarmo

I suppose but who here had their feelings hurt?



So then why did Axl play the Inland Invasion gig? He clearly states in the link that because of downloading motherfuckers they were asked to play the gig. He took the time and money to play the show. If someone is so dead set against something then how can they take money and support from the people they are dead set against?

I dont feel guilty at all for dloading the leaks. I dont think Axl is mad at the people who did either. It comes down to the assholes in the media and some extreme fans who Axl is referring to.

I am personally very happy we got the leaks.  I now have a version of Catcher I love that i can stick on my own version of Chinese Democracy. It also gave the fans something to hold onto while we were waiting.

Im sure pretty much everyone who got some leaks still bought a copy or two and really, Catcher and maybe The Blues are the only leaks I can honestly say are better than what we ended up with. The rest were brilliantly worked up.

I feel exactly the same. Ron did a really good job on the song and I love that solo.

In the past Axl has never been shy in addressing/confronting his audience with certain issues.

Perhaps he did the gig to face his fans in person and let them know that he really wasn't cool with the downloading of the leaks.

Perhaps he did the gig, so that his fans wouldn't feel they were starved for music and therefore justified in downloading the leaks to 'get them by'.

Maybe it was the band's way of saying - look, the music is on the way.




If you wish to see it as Axl taking money from his fans (which isn't the correct way to see it by any means),

those who continued to download after Axl expressed his view on the issue, certainly had no qualms about taking something

from the artist.

I thought the old leak of I.R.S and the older live versions of Chinese Democracy and 'The Blues' weren't a patch on the studio versions.

Though I was really glad the 'live' feel of Street of Dreams was kept on the album...

I dont think someone stealing the leaks from the band and posting them is right, but remember how long everyone waited for this album, we were all starved for a long time.

On a slightly different note, I did listen to the leaks because this is a whole new line-up as far as output goes. I remember some people who said they didnt want to hear the leaks but were still so convinced of how great the new material was going to be. Even when they had no idea they would defend Axl's new music which wasnt released or out in any public form. Is that just intense love for an artist, or was it to keep the hope alive.

Also would be interesting to know how everyone feels about the last 9 years now its over....

Not the ones you were talking about, that's for sure.





Not everything is as black or white as you might like to think.

I would say most artists understand that their fans want to hear new music and are excited about it. It means people are interested in their work.


Now, it doesn't have to mean that they like their songs leaking or so called fans judging their art by listening to unfinished tracks, does it?


Assuming that the leaks were the ONLY reason why GN'R played that festival, something good came out of it. But, it doesn't mean nothing bad came out of it.

You choose to justify the listening/comparison of the leaked material by saying they played a show and have no problems with leaks.

I'm saying, just because one good thing happened doesn't mean they think it's ok. Considering all the shit that came with it.




Once again, it's not necessarily that simple.

Not everybody who listened to them go on about how much better they are. Not everybody who did that are comparing them to the finished album versions.

You're making a broad generalization.

And since you're not feeling bad about it, why does Axl's approval seem to be a big deal to you?





I'm glad you pointed that out.

Every time somebody has spoken out against these "extreme fans", those people have been attacked for being against the fans.

You call an asshole an asshole and suddenly you've called every fan an asshole..... Weird.




/jarmo

Look, ultimately I agree with you about leaks. Im not suggesting that Axl is cool with the leaks, hence the Invasion concert. Im saying that yea leaks are gay, but hes not holding it against his fans like I think your implying he does. He has even mentioned in the past that hes not totally against Napster. My point about the Inland Invasion show is that Axl understands that people are going to download the leaks and be excited by it. Hence the humor at the concert. I know the concert isnt soley because of the leaks. But at the same time hes not saying oh my god my fans downloaded leaks how dare they! Fuck them.


I just dont get why some fans cant enjoy a demo over a final version or vice versa. Like I said earlier if they dont buy the album because they have the leaks and have heard the finals, but decided not to buy the album because they prefer the leaks...then yea thats wrong. Or the same with a journalist. But other than that I dont see how its a big deal at all.


Im not seeking any approval in regards to this. Not sure what you mean by that. If Axl came out and flat out said all people who dloaded my leaks, fans or not fans, are assholes, etc I would disagree with him big time. Axl isnt always right :o   but thankfully in this case hes not saing that so Im not quite sure what you mean about approval in regards to his comments on this subject

As for you speaking out against these extreme fans.....When I say extreme, Im talking about people like dave2k who are fans but have taken it to such an extreme with the leaks and how they think things should be, etc. There really arent many that fall into that category. But there are some out there. And I have no problem saying this cause I have told Dave this in the past. I know hes a fan but I think Axls comments are geared toward that section of the fan base. As well as "journalists"

Your idea of an asshole and my idea of an asshole is where we differ.

Isn't that what I said?

While you were too busy saying Axl doesn't mind it.







I've explained my point of view and you don't seem to register it for some reason.

It's about your first impression, getting attached to it and so on. Like you never gave the album version a fair chance since you're already attached to the "original"....

Please, go look for my post. Shouldn't be too difficult to find.




We have a different definitions on a lot of things. Such as "fan", "constructive criticism", "behave" and "promise".



/jarmo

I dont need to go back. I know what you said. ANd Im saying its not that big of a deal.


agreed. Except for behave and promise. Since Im still here I must be  keeping my promise of behaving. So we do agree on atleast what behave and promise mean :)

As for fan and constructive criticism... :'( :no:   but maybe one day who knows

You promised me to behave and said I could ban you without protest if you didn't. Then later on you called me crazy. That's an insult since you're not a doctor or otherwise qualified to make that diagnosis.

I asked you what I should do about it since you broke your promise and oddly enough, you never replied.


So we do have a different opinion on what those two words mean.  : ok:




/jarmo

You insult me all the time. Who cares? You cant take a few insults? Are you really that sensitive? You cant be, really.....

Are you always wound tight? Do you ever unwind? Not every "insult" should be taken literally.

I do? Did I call you a name? I don't think it's an insult when I post about the things you've done. Like begging to be let back in here and making promises of behaving. Because it's the truth. You did.
 

Now, pay close attention: You made a promise.

When it's time to live up to it, you show what your promise is really worth. Nothing.


If I took all your insults seriously, you wouldn't be here explaining.

After all, who let you back here? That's right, I did.

Better luck next time.


But hey, according to you I got no balls or class!





/jarmo

I love Ron's solo and the whole feel of the finished song. In an earlier post younggunner said something about the demo having a more peaceful pace and vibe, but artistically i don't see how that's a plus. The lyrical content matches the vibe of the song much better in the finished version, both in depth and style. I think those who grew too attached to various demo or live versions might not see their attachment for what it is in that regard. The finished versions (which mind you are the ONLY versions) elevate the emotional impact by matching content and form. The same is true of Madagascar, which initially several people complained about the vocals on, but i think Axl's delivery on this song is spot on for what he's saying and for the mood of the music. Plus i think a lot of people were underwhelmed by this song because they had been listening to it for years. To me, all of that is where the harm is - in the intended artistic presentation, and therefore expression, of the artist. I write poems, and it would piss me off if someone was reading them from my notes and notebooks and not when i decide their done, edited, and ready for printing.

I'm not exactly sure... I guess it was just a hunch. I always loved Slash's solos on Michael Jackson's songs (Give Into Me and D.S.) and I find myself bored and uninspired by most current bands... so I went and purchased AFD before Christmas and loved it straight away.

I'm 23, so I would've been about six or seven when UYI came out....

Just keep listening to all the albums.  They are all great for their own reasons.

Most of us have had years to listen to the previous albums before Chinese came out.  We've had a lot of time to digest the old material.

But sometimes, I'm in an AFD mood, other times a UYI 2 mood.  That's the great thing with Guns, they have albums to match whatever mood or feelings you may be consumed with at the moment.

I think so far my favourite seems to be the second USI album. For some reason I find myself in the mood for that one more often than the others. Although CD is getting some heavy rotation on my stereo also at the minute...

Definitely dude.  I gather you've been a fan for a few months now?

I remember when I first got into GN'R, I got my Appetite fix, but I was completely blown away by Use Your Illusion 2.  I was on a UYI 2 tangent for a few months after.

It's really exciting for me to see the growth and development of a new fan.  I was that person four years ago.

I preferred UYI 1, I just loved the second side of the disc especially the last 4 songs Don't Damn Me, Bad Apples, Dead Horse, Coma.  Loved that flow.  Although UYI has my favorite song from the sessions in Breakdown.

As a whole, UYI 1 "rocks" harder.  But Estranged, Yesterdays, Breakdown...those songs do more for me than anything on UYI 1.  Just my personal taste of course.  When I want to rock out to an Illusion album, UYI 1 goes in the stereo, of course.  But I prefer the smooth sounds of UYI 2.

I bought the two albums at the same time, but played 1 first and gave it a few weeks and completely loved it and then initially I was disappointed when I heard 2 because it didn't sound like the first one.

After another week or so, it had slowly become a favourite of mine. I think songs like Breakdown, Locomotive and Estranged show why Axl and Slash were such a perfect marriage together. There is so much passion in those songs and you really hear them vibing off eachother...

Even songs which I considered filler at first (like So Fine and Shotgun Blues) I've now grown to appreciate.

I still dig the first one... especially the bluesy feel to songs like Bad Obsession and Bad Apples. And Coma is undoubtedly a masterpiece. But the second one cuts a little deeper for me, for some reason. I keep trying to stop myself playing Estranged because I don't want to overplay it and ruin it for myself - but it hasn't happened yet and I listen to it almost daily...

I agree with you 100% Principessa.I can't rap my mind around how some people think GN'R don't sound like a "band " anymore.One thing you've got to know about a band playing a song is everything has to be in the same key.if its all in the same key everything works.I love writing poetry and playing guitar.me and my buddy have been jammin for two years ever since I taught him how to play and now we take turns playin rhythm and lead.we have four of our own songs and we cover a few. i think im more of a perfectionist than he is though lol i can't quite get em to sound right... and I'm only 16.Think about Axl's life for a minute and the fame and fortune he had.Imagine having everything and not being able to keep the woman of your dreams when you could get anything else..the man wrote some amazing music. he didnt put November Rain on appetite because it wasn't ready in his eyes I imagine. they had more money for the illusions and look at what he did with those !!

Now to get to the point. Chinese Democracy.Axl's baby ,the introduction of his dreams to society. How does it not sound like a band ,he made everything flow and fit perfectly.I couldn't point out a flaw on the album.he slaved over it.I don/t have the booklet with me but I'm pretty sure everyone but the drummers ( with the exception of Josh on CD)and Ron got a writing credit at least once on a song.although Axl let Bumble have the solos on both the songs buckets credited for which was pretty awesome.I prefer his CITR solo though . The ending of that was crafted perfectly..after hearing the leak when i was a curious new fan..i like how he chose to end it ( for those that never listened it faded out at the end of the last lines ) .

And for anyone who thinks the drums suck on Chinese Democracy... pay real close attention at the end of Sorry  8)  :drool:

Interesting one. A few years back I decided to stop posting at GNR forums until Chinese Democracy came out or had a proper release date because I figured I would enjoy things more that way. I did download the first leaks of TWAT, IRS and Better (only had one minute of it) and enjoyed them...

I avoided the rest of the leaks pretty much...largely because through avoiding GNR boards I didn't really know they were there. I listened to the odd youtube clip, to get my fix basically, but always made sure it was a song I'd already heard (ie one of the above three, The Blues, Madagascar, Chinese Democracy) and so when the album came out, loads of it was brand new to me and I love it to death.

Now about a month later, I was heading to a rock bar with some friends. One the way, one suggested we go halves on playing the whole of Chinese Democracy if they had it on the jukebox. I get there, I see the cover, I stick my money in, start selecting the tracks...then realised it wasn't the right tracklisting - Oh My God & Silk Worms were on there and there were a few missing. So basically, it was a collection of leaks plus those two songs.

It was a really interesting listen...all I heard with each and every one was how much the songs had progressed between those leaks being made and the album I had already grown to love being released. I genuinely couldn't understand why I had read certain people preaching so much about the leaks being so much better. I mean, some of them appeared to have the same vocal track, but there wasn't a single song I enjoyed more on that leaked version.

That being said, I did enjoy listening to them, and would do so again, but only in the same way that I like to stick the Don't Cry demo on from to time...it's good...but it's not the real thing, and there's a good reason why it's not the real thing.

I actually think there are a few moments on the album that definitely channel Old Guns ("This I Love" and "Catcher In The Rye" could have easily been UYI tracks IMHO and "Prostitute" is "Estranged" slimmed down and on steroids for me). Overall, I think it's one of the real achievements of the album that it comes across as a "logical progression" of the Old Guns' "sound".

Just my take though... 

Agree on TIl and CIR, but can't buy that prostitute is anything like Estranged  :-\

I have to say that Bumble's CITR solo really grew on me and now it's probably my favorite on the album.  Just don't see why anyone would prefer the leak.

At least for me hearing the leaks/live performances were a positive thing.. It gave me time to adjust to change. I must have been one of the very few fans in Helsinki consert in 2006 jumping up and down during all the new songs (Better, Blues, Madagascar). That does not make me appreciate the finished (official and legal) product any less.

But back to music since that's what this thread is about. I've fallen in love with Madagascar long time ago and that has not changed. That song has every element of a hit song I can think of. My other favourites are 'This I Love' and 'Catcher In the Rye'. TIL surprised me with it's style. It's more pop than rock ballad. CITR has more of a nostalgic feel to it which appeals to me.

Anybody else liking solo on Scraped? One of my favorites on CD.

its my fav bumblefoot solo on the album. 

CD is a great work of art. You have to consider that the method of recording has changed over the years. Is that a good thing? It depends on what kind of recording you are into creating.
I do find that there is a difference in recording the basic tracks live as a group than recording it track by track. There is something of an energy element in performance that some how magically transforms itself into the recording process when you record a live band together. (In example: Drums, Bass, basic two guitar tracks with no leads). I know that sounds impossible but if you listen to Appetite that's how that LP was done. Than some overdubbing is done to finish it up.
It's really a matter of a reflection of what is going on in the evolution of music. CD is loaded with some many ideas and arrangements that it probably would of been a train wreck at first to record all of the basic tracks live. Plus I have a feeling that most of the arrangements were edited later on the computer. With the technology we have now one can spend weeks cutting and pasting sections of the waves of the songs into different versions. Than the producer and artist can sit back and decide which arrangement is most appealing to them for the final mix for the album. : )

You know... My mom isn't a fan of the band and she isn't into music at all but she had to listen to them in the 90s when I used to listen to them a lot. So she knows some songs and the videos (though the wouldn't tell the names etc.). Today she came into the room when the intro of The Street of Dreams was playing. And she said: Oh, is that Guns n Roses? I was like  :o How do you know?? And she said: Well, it reminds me of the old stuff  ::)