Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Like the people who constantly complain about the late starts...Should stay home. 

People who complain about Axl's singing ability...Should stay home too!

Last tour there was an abundance of complainers and it really ruins it for the people who want to hear about positive things about the shows  : ok:

I do think that anyone complaining about late starts is either new to GNR or living in denial really.  Axl has been very open about the fact that he is 'always' late so that should not be a surprise anymore.. as long as there will be a show I don't mind.  :P

as far as they don't take my tix of me, I don't mind much.
I've never heard a complaint from the crowd after their gnr show. ???

Last US tour, you mean?

... and Slash - and do not try to give him free Dr. Pepper!

it think i kind of understand what the OP is saying. i certainly don't want to be stuck sitting next to some assholes who bitch and complain about the start time & "where's slash" for 3 hours. i'd personally love to see the next tour mainly consist of a chinese d - or future tracks - setlist. i think that would be absolutely amazing! the assholes who only have an interest in hearing the "classics" should just stay home all together.

Part of the excitement for me is the late starts. I love it when you hear the first few chords of WTTJ and then you hear Uncle Axl shout, Do you know where the f*** you are? People around me don't complain, they just  leave. And we are GNR fans not  Barbara Streisand fans!

I agree why do people spend money on shows when they don't like the band? I wish I had money to just waste on bands I don't like.

Daddy pays!




/jarmo

That is so funny and sad at the same time.

I agree with all of this. I hate those people who find fault with everything. I mean, Axl has a history of late starts, if you're going to a GnR show, you expect that, not complain about it. The late start is all part of the general excitement and experience. I completely agree that people like that shouldn't be allowed at the shows.

I agree that people who has to be home before midnight can fuck off and forget about a gn'r concert, but I'd urge those who has complained about axl's voice to check out a gig. There is no way in hell that they have the same opinion after the gig.

If they do they're lying.

The worst thing about the "late" starts is it's hard to plan the alcholconsumption. One time I was like "Don't worry there not going to go on for another two hours" But I barley had time to down a Jaeger in the bar and we had to run to our seats!
Next time I was on the floor and waited and waited and got thirsty and was in a beerline for the two first two songs.
Damn it sucks to have these problems living in an industrialised democracy. Maybe I'll try China for change :beer:

Can Gn'r Really afford to lose anyone who's already willing to pay any money to see them? They weren't exactly filling all arenas they played, and the record isn't selling that much either.


I Don't think Gn'r is in the position to chose who's worthy to see them, even if that was something they could somehow control

Agree with MeanBone. U make all those people stay home and GNR will become a festival only band.

I know it is their thing, but people waiting till midnight to see a band and saying they have no right to complain is ridiculous.

If a show starts at 8pm, taking the stage 2 hours after the first opening band... people have a right to bitch. At least have a bunch of opening bands play up until u are ready to play.

2 hours of standing around doing nothing sucks.

Last two tours!

It's ridiculous when people know about it in advance. Like most GN'R fans do.





/jarmo

Yeah but u are assuming everyone that buys a ticket reads message forums and are hardcore fans. I'd say 50 percent of any audience are somewhat casual while the other 50 are hardcore.

For me, if they want to play at 2am that is fine. I just don't like sitting and doing nothing while waiting. why not just start the show later or add another opening band to bridge the time?

What's weird is that all the shows I saw from Guns in 2006 (3 of them), GN'R really weren't late. Back in the *cough* old days, we waited hours for GN'R to get on stage. Yea, 2006 was nothing! If I heard anyone complaining about this at any one of these shows I think I would have to beat the shit of of them. Anyone saying shit about Axl and GN'R at a fucking concert that we ALL paid for, should just fuck off and go home and watch Rachel Ray and bake some cookies.

Then stay home, it's real simple.


People know Gn'R go on late, this isn't some obscure "hardcore fan only knowledge."

If you don't like having 2 free hours, go to a bar, have a late dinner, make some friends.

Lots of peolple can't even dream of affording a ticket, and you're going to whine about having 2 hours to kill?

No I'm not.

I'm assuming the ones who post complaints on GN'R message boards read the message boards and know the deal.




/jarmo

U people just drive me crazy on here. What do u want, GNR to play Rocklohama? FUCK if they lose anymore fans in the US that is what its gonna be.

Playing at midnight was cool in the early 90's but now u got shit like the internet where people know what's goin on. People don't do shit like they use to.

we live in a microwave society where people want things fast and now. People don't like waiting that long and it is heavily reflected in the ticket sales.

I know if GNR came close to me on a weekday and I have an 8 A.M. clinical... u are right, I will stay at home and that sucks.

True, If u know and go and still complain, that is pretty retarded.

Those people need to realize that they can't always get what they want....

You want rock n' roll, but you want it nicely packaged.

You want rebellion, but you want it on time.


It's impossible!




That's your choice.

I know people who went to a GN'R show, then drove five hours home only to go straight to work....

We still talk about that today.  ;D




/jarmo

I've had the privilige to see Gn'R 7 times. The only time people made a big deal out of the band coming on late was at Inland Invasion; a show where a large percentage of the people attending weren't even huge Gn'R fans to begin with..

Nonetheless, the place was still packed for all 7 shows, so I don't know where your getting your "poor ticket sales" propaganda from, nor do I really care.

This isn't Bon Jovi. This is Guns N' Roses..a rock band. If you can't handle staying out past your bed time, stay home.

I'd much rather someone who actually wanted to be there have the chance to buy your ticket.

If Gn'R come close to me on a weekday, me and my Dad will be there work and school the next day or not : ok:

Sorry the late starts SUCK!! Especially when you rely on public transportation , ie MSG N' Hammerstein, to get back home..
But the shows have been incredible
As for the ste list, Perhaps 1 "future" song..Unfamilurlarity takes often takes away from a performance..A great example is Rhiad..Always liked it, but after listening to the official version for so long I put in the Vegas bootleg..It now sounds great..

^
not to be a hater or anything, but GNR don't exactly come close to selling out in the US, so I wouldn't be stealing anyone's ticket.

Once I get my job, SURE, I would, but in the school phase etc... I just wouldn't be able to do it and risk screwing my future up.

Also,I am not sure people care about  rock n roll anymore. They want a show like a movie, start on time, play the songs I love and see you next time.

I am not saying those people are right, but that is how things are today right or wrong.

I honestly don't think the ticket sales in the US ever had anything to do with a new band or any of that. I think it was more due to this and the bad rap Axl has gotten of not showing up.

Lets say u have a limited budget. would u risk hundreds of dollars on gas,tickets,hotel, food etc and then something like Vancouver or Philly happen?

So I say a lot of people don't go for that reason.

Well, when we didn't even get into the Warfield until like 10:00 the first night, things were looking bleak, but thankfully the show went on ;)

I saw only one show that year - my first GNR gig ever - and they were about 2 hours late. I was pretty sure beforehand that the timetables would not stick..  ;D
And it was such a great gig that in the end it did not matter. I even moved my summer holiday to that week so that I was able to go. So if there's a will there's a way..


Who says that that is what you have to do ? Personally I would be very interested in getting to know other fans - face to face - and what's a better place than GNR  consert ?

How is it impossible to have a punctual show of rock n roll rebellion?

I have been to hundreds of concerts and most tend to start near the announced time.  Are these bands lesser rebels because they own watches and respect their fans?  I don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive.

For me, a GnR show through the week would be a tough call.  I have a wife and 1 year old boy.  Responsibilities tend to put an end to late week night carousing.  Axl need to realize that his fan base has gotten older and we can't stay out until 3 am on a Tuesday.

Who gives a shit its GnR ! man they could go on at 2am and i'll be pushing my way up to the front waiting for Robin to play the opening notes of WTTJ.

I wouldn't worry about Axl coming on late. We have that covered this year. See we are going to steal Axl's watch while he is sleeping and turn the dials two hours ahead. So this way Axl will think it's 2:00am in the morning and he'll be ready to play but it will really be 12:00am  :rofl:

"There are certain people who should not attend the next tour shows!"

GN'R fans fighting themselves now "deciding" who is allowed to get in and not?
let me guess one of the next ideas: everyone with a Slash Tshirt is not wanted there and needs to be beat up!

come on......its up to everybody himself if he wants to attend an Axl show or not, this is nothing anyone has any right to judge!

The only ones who should complain about late starts is the band themselves.  I think it may have been more of an issue between band members back in UYI days because the majority of the venues have union labor and the overtime fees you have to pay are pretty steep.  Now that Axl has more of the overall %, I'm sure it's just something he decides to pay for.  I'd guess most of the musicians now are contracted and salaried vs. in the UYI days when it was more of a partnership between Axl, Slash, Duff.  That's where the legality of things must have been just mind-boggling given the fact they were raking in boatloads of money.

All and all it's their money, do what you want with it.  I'd rather see any band when they are totally ready to bring it.  If you're bored between sets, at least now you have ipods.

I was under the impression that the whole idea behind rock n' roll was to do things your way...


I'm sure those bands are all very professional, but sometimes you get the feeling they're just up there doing a job without a lot of emotion going into it.

I'm not saying they don't love playing their music in front of an audience. But when everything is kinda scripted in advance like that, you are bound to lose something.

Like any other job. You do it because you have to. Not always because you want to.






Or, the thing that happened to all the other shows might happen!

You get to see a concert you'll never forget.

Which happens to be the more likely scenario.




/jarmo

If Axl did things MY way he'd be on time and playing a show in my backyard ;D

Scripted?  Lose something?  You mean like KISS?

I mean every artist who sees going on stage as just a job.

Sure, the audiences loves it. They get their show. They get to sing and dance and be home well before midnight. So their ordinary life isn't interrupted too much.

And then when something authentic comes along, they don't know how to react other than bitch that it's not like everything else. That their night was ruined because they didn't get home in time. They had to pay for babysitting and whatever else.


It seems like people want the unexpected to happen, they want to be surprised. And at the same time they love to know the routine, have something safe and predictable.

You want to hear the hits, but you love it when they play something totally unexpected.

You want to be home by midnight, but you love a three hour marathon show...

You want the show to start at 9PM, but you love the electricity and excitement not knowing if the band will be on at 9:30 or 10:30.





/jarmo

You get that spark with some veteran bands but for the most part if you want the unexpected then you need to see a young band that is still hungery and wants to make a name for themselves.

I saw My Morning Jacket this summer and they still have that hunger and the show seemed like a 3 hour orgasm for them.  I also saw Radiohead and it was a great show but the spark was not there as far as energy goes.

So I know what you're saying but if a band is on show number 123 of the tour it makes it difficult for anyone to not just go through the motions and put autopilot on.

I like the late starts - as people get tired and have to piss - I move closer to the front of the pit.

what's not simple is that they stay home go on line and complain about the shows they don't see. :-\


as far as I know those who actually saw the band tend to boast about the interval they had as if some adventure.

I agree with this completely.  Saw them back in 06 in Tampa, and the worst thing about the late start is that fact that I only remember bits and pieces of the show due to the fact that I was completely hammered by time GN'R came on.  Other than that, when they tour next, I won't care how late they come on.  I'll take the next day off work because 1) I know it will be a very late night and 2) I live in St. Louis so I'll need to go somewhere else if I want to see GN'R  ::)

I fucking LOVE that the band goes on so late....because I generally run about an hour or 2 late myself...I like to get to the show...chill out for a while and wait...I hate getting to a show and it starts up right on time or even early!!  I saw Bon Jovi(sorry D) at the garden this past summer...and that fucker was on stage playing at like 7:50 or some shit, before we even got to our seats...and when most of the crowd were still at the concession stands...it was so lame...it felt like I was going to a Miley Cyrus concert and she had to get off stage before all the kiddies bed times...

There was a bitch (and if you're reading this, you're a bitch) at the LV show who was screaming "It's not the same without Slash."

Stay home losers...

it was not me ... really ... it was not me  :hihi:





-velimir

she's right. it's not the same. it's even better! i've seen guns in 06/07' and i've seen them when asshole top hat was playing. for me, it's a no-brainer. what we have today far surpasses anything from yester-year. here's to hoping we see axl, bbf, fortus, tommy, frank, dizzy, and chris rocking out to a predominantly heavy chinese d set-list in 2009!

if people aren't onboard, i sure hope that they take tommy's advice & simply fuck off!

Yeah, I went and saw them in Nashville and the show started at 8 and I almost missed the opening cause i figure nothing ever starts on time.  They did have the number 1 tour last year though, So I can't say I argue with how they do stuff.  places have curfews and sometimes you have to absolutely be finished by a certain time. If you can believe Slash and I know there were errors in his book but he said they barely made any money at all on the Metallica co headline tour due to the union fees and all that.

Its cool Axl wants to do what he wants to do. I am just saying, They'd probably be a more successful touring act in the US if not for the late starts etc and I think it has even more to do with that reputation than the band thing.



I think Axl with the East Coast at least stays on West Coast time. I heard u avoid jeg lag and all that by staying as close to your time as possible. So midnight on the East would be on time for him on the West.

I definitely agree with this. Why would u go to a concert to act like this? I think that is just ridiculous. For those who genuinely and sincerely don't know though, I can't blame them for getting upset if they honestly didn't know the standard late stuff.

i'm sorry, but if they show up to a guns concert in 2009 not knowing the "standard late stuff" that's their own fucking problem. i'd have a hard time taking someone seriously that calls themself a "fan" - yet isn't aware of gnr's best album to date.

Yeah but not everybody that goes to a concert is a "Fan" U know? I mean sure u like the band, but not every single person knows every single small detail. There are people that only know Appetite and probably aren't even aware the old guys are out that would still go see them in concert based on those songs.


I went and saw Kiss in 2000, this was before I had the internet and Skid Row was opening and I was FUCKING SHOCKED to realize that wasn't Sebastian. I thought he'd just gained a bunch of weight and lost his voice.


Same with Aerosmith who I love... I have lost probably 800 bucks over 2 concerts on Aerosmith due to cancellations etc and as much as I like them I would never ever ever pay to see them again. never


so u just wonder if some fans are like that as well, they hear the bullshit, they remember the late stuff or perceived no shows and they just don't go.

I think that such of things should not be happen anymore....If you don't like the new band you should go for the music only and at least be respectful for the work that those guys are doing in to keep the legacy of Guns N' Roses alive.
Some thing really special happened when Guns came to Brazil in 2001 to play at Rock In Rio Festival...200.000 tickets were sold before the public knows who was or not in the band.
Only Guns N' Roses music matter to us and of course have the opportunity to see Axl on stage again after all this time.So, we trust in him completly!

i can cope with the whiners and persistent complaining to a cretain extent.................

what i dont fucking like is the bottle throwing retards, i was unlucky enough to get a 2ltr bottle of water thrown at the back of my head when i was at the barriers at donny.... or maybe i should be thankful it was only water maybe?  :hihi:

I wish we had some shows to go to.

Damn.

QFT

Fingers crossed for Spring/summer

Me too. I'd be happy to hop a plane to VEGAS or NYC to see a warm up show!

^^I know so would I.. I really really wish they'd announce some dates.

As long as Axl starts the show at 8pm sharp right?

As many as people as possible should attend the next tour shows. : ok:

Uh huh, and does something about his singing ability. I mean his voice ain't what it used to be. :P

You want the show to start at 9PM, but you love the electricity and excitement not knowing if the band will be on at 9:30 or 10:30.





/jarmo
[/quote]
That's week...11:12:00 is more like it..And it SUCKS!!! But it is Axl N' GN'R so I put up w/ it w/ a smile..

If its a weekend, I'll go no matter if they play at 4am. Through the week though, unless it's summer, I wouldn't be able to...............

I'm just sayin, standing around or sitting in a seat for 2 hours, especially when u are like me and don't drink... just not fun. once they came out it would be awesome and worth it, but I'd be pretty tired.

I remember the first time I saw Prince, I had to wake up at 6:30 AM and get ready for High School and we had to leave and drive 3 hours to Lexington to see him.

time I went to school all day and then made that long ass drive............ He came out 1 hour late and to be honest, I was so tired, I still enjoyed it, don't get me wrong, but not as much as I did a few years ago when I saw him again fresher.

Agreed.

I cannot understand how people expect Axl to sound any better at his age than he did on the last tour. I'm hoping he sounds that good if/when they get back to touring.

When it comes to being late, that's just Axl's thing, but this..

I'm really big fan of some other bands with great singers like him. They get the same kind of shit from some of their fans about singing on tour. So I don't think this is about Axl really, it's about those fans.. As one of them said "You can not please everyone".

One thing we as fans don't always seem to realize is how much hard work the band has put into touring - all that travelling and putting themselves out there to give us the best show possible night after night. For us it may be just a one show but for them it's months and months of that. And the musicians do get the vibe -both good and bad -  from their audience. You might think that your night got ruined because show started late or singing wasn't what you wanted it to be.. Have you thought that the artist's night might have gotten ruined because all of that negative response from the audience ? Sometimes that takes just one person in a front row with a 'blank' stare (like 'I'm bored with this, could not care less') ..and here I'm speaking of something that has actually happened.

I have a life outside of seeing bands : work, family, that kind of thing. Work means I can afford to buy tickets for shows.

And that means that when a band comes on at midnight and ends at 2:15am, and I have to be at work in 5 hours 45 minutes, that I feel the band are not respecting the audience. That's my opinion.

For GNR i'd book the day off work the next day, but there aren't many days off going around, and that hurts.

well, here's your simple solution... don't go to the show.  i won't miss you.  i'm sure axl won't miss you either. 

all some people want to do is moan and complain. 

I'm happy to see GnR whenever and however I possibly can.   

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to find anything that sucked about the time I spent waiting for GN'R to go on in Lisbon, Oslo, Roskilde or London.

I mean those were, for me, the most exciting and tense moments of my GN'R career. Those moments spent with friends and fellow fans, just not knowing whats going to happen and then, finally, being fuckin' blown away by the presence and the sound of the best fuckin' band in the world! Sheer brilliance!

ooooo I got thirsty.... I stood in line... I had to piss... I stood in line... the last train left... more money getting home...

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? How dare you?  :confused:

And D. Of all, that you couldn't find a way to get to a GN'R gig on the last tour is just beyond believe. Are you in jail? :hihi:

How often do you get to see GN'R live in concert? Take the time and money. It's worth it.

What was so rock n roll about the last gnr tour?

Same set list and pretty much the same order.

Atleast with the 02 tour it had a wtf element to it with Bucket handing out toys and nun chuck solos and Robins looks and moves...guitarists crashing into each other etc

And who cant forget Axls memorable rants and tangents on that tour?

The 06 tour he didnt say much and the setlist was far from the gnr/rnr spirit. Plus Axl was too into fashion and stuff on this tour. Societys elite! 02 he could careless

So Gnr did things their way. But in the end it was basically the same as any act but a few hrs later(I dont mind the waiting, I like it) and of course much better songs

When Axl goes back to his rants and unpredicatble set lists is when the gnr and rnr spirit will be back.

that's typical line, isn't it? Anyone who dares have any commitments outside of staying up to 2am to see a show and anyone who has to work the next morning are doing it just so they can moan and complain? You really think people who paid up to $175 to see a band that disappeared for seven years and didn't stick out an album for 15 years* are spending that money and time just so they can moan and complain? Or do you think they're people who think that GNR are like almost every other band on the planet and they will finish around 10.30-11.00pm?

At the shows I have been at PLENTY of people were very vocal at the fact they weren't on stage until 11pm, and were VERY annoyed that they had to go to a gig, yet didn't see what they paid for because of work / babysitters / whatever? I knew what was coming, but plenty didn't.

Is your opinion of humanity really so one-dimensional that those people are just moaners and complainers? Most people don't want things to complain about.  I know how GNR gigs play out and what time they finish and plan accordingly. Plenty of other people don't know. That doesn't make them moaners or complainers.

*this is what most people who don't live on the Internet thought until November 22nd.

 So what you are saying is that Axl has to do rants regularly (be predictable in that sense) yet the set list has to be unpredictable ?   ;)

It was GN'R.

So basically everything people whined about.

Same set list? They play what they fucking want instead of trying to please some Internet geek who isn't at the show.

"Late" starts? They go on when they're ready to give it all.

Fashion? Axl wears what he wants, always has. Not what you think he should be wearing. And since when has that been important to you anyway?

No rants? He doesn't pretend to have something to say when he doesn't just to please you. It's authentic.



So basically everything about it was rock n' roll.  : ok:

No matter how you wanna twist things around, GN'R is one of the last real rock bands around.

A lot of other bands might be marketed as one, but it's easy to see who the real deal is.




/jarmo

Exactly ! younggunner why are you here on this board if your just gonna talk shit about GnR ?  I really liked the 06 tour alot better than 02.  That isn't the point though, the point is GnR does what it wants to do, when it wants to do it.  If you don't like it, then guess what keep watching those bootlegs of years past and listening to AFD.

feel better? 

the simple truth is that is how a gnr show will go.  love it or leave it.  no amount of complaining on the interent is going to change anything.  it's like do you think axl will read this and say, 'oh okay... because this one guy doesn't like staying up late for a rock concert, then i'll just go on before i'm ready and give everyone else a shitty performance.' 

i can't believe you can be that selfish.  axl has one responbility:  axl.  not you, not any other person complaining and moaning about every little thing that they don't like 100 percent.  you know what you're getting into when you buy a ticket for a show.  so either buy the ticket and accept it, or don't buy a ticket.  you can stay home and listen to chinese democracy and make absolutely sure it's over by 10 o'clock so you can tuck yourself into beddy bed.

(nearly) the same setlists surely aint rock n roll.
rants are  : ok:

As I said, playing what they want instead of worrying about what you want is.  : ok:


I guess they weren't rock n' roll back in the 80s either according to you.  :P





"I'm thankful to be here and I'm thankful that you are here tonight. We do our best to come out here and put everything we got into it and give you the best show we can. I just want, not necessarily you, to know. Now I don't have anything necessarily against, some of the bootlegs, photos tapes and all this kind of deal. But the people that are bitching, about "the setlist, they got the same setlist". It's some fuckhead from Iowa who doesn't even go to a show. I don't care about them. I don't do one song, not one note, not one God damn thing". 

- Axl



That's rock n' roll.  :)




/jarmo

I've never found GN'R being late a problem.

Find a late club, book a hotel, enjoy the night. It's all possible even when you get older.

When I was younger, if I was strapped for cash, we got alcohol from the local shop, found a local car park, and we enjoyed ourselves there until the transport came on again. Great memories.

Erose: They came no where remotely close to me in 06. they had a Nashville date booked, and I was gonna go but it go cancelled for whatever reason.

If they ever come to Atlanta or Nashville, I will be there.


The thing with GNR is, They should be on the Bon Jovi, U2, Metallica, Madonna, Prince, Rolling Stones Touring level but in the US there shows are usually half full.

U have to wonder why that is? I personally think the going on late is a BIG reason for that.

If they don't mind the empty seats, that is fine though. They can do whatever they want.

Im sure the majority of people who throw there two cents into the mix go to the shows. How can you argue it wasnt the same setlist?

No complaints from me on that one. I have no problem with the starting times.


You are correct, I could care less with what he wears. I brought it up because people were comparing gnr to other acts. I brought up the fashion part because the 2006 tour seemed more like a polished product, like most other acts, than I was accustomed too in 2002 and from watching the old school boots. The fashion stuff kind of correlates with that.

As for the rants...of course I wouldnt want or expect Axl to rant just to rant. But in 06 he just seemed different than in years past. Just my opinion.

agreed. Axl is one of the last true rock stars. There are no rock stars these days. My only point is that until Gnr have a more unpredictable set, like they used to, you cant say its 100% rnr.

Yada  yada yada. Your actually making my point. Why do people say other acts are robotic and not rnr when they do the same stuff in terms of setlist as GNR? But GNR are doing things there way...yet the other acts are not??? Contradiction if you ask me.

I'm not talking about me, but people who aren't me, by the way.

Loads of people don't have a clue GNR run on a different clock.


But my perspective on this is relatively straightforward : you pay me... and then maybe I'll take into account what you want and when you want it. Does Axl do shows for free?

Because it wasn't the same.

This is ridiculous.

Because you can't please everyone and it's way better to do what you think is right instead of worrying what those who don't attend the show think of it.






Yeah, and the Versace stuff in the 90s wasn't?

Of all the observations....




Yeah, to me it looked like he was having fun.







What makes you the judge of what's rock n' roll and what's not? Did you go to rock n' roll high school and got a diploma?

Maybe to me GN'R is the embodiment of rock n' roll.

Because they've always done things their way, no matter how many "younggunners" object to it.



I don't care what they play as long as they play it because they want to.

I like all GN'R songs so for me, I'll be happy either way.

And no matter what songs they play, I'll get an awesome show without the need to find things to complain about.






/jarmo

I went to four gigs and I always got different songs and a different order.

GN'R tours sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much right?

Most people only go to one show.  So if your schedule is a little off for one day, that is something to cry about, right?

Why does God have to treat people so bad?
 
::)

could gnr fans in the early 90's predict a gnr setlist on a given night? or the order of songs?

Im not judging anything. I didnt start this thread. Im not proclaiming to be the be all end all when it comes to rnr. Because Im not. Not even close. But the whole Gnr does things there way thing doesnt exactely hold true in a concert setting when comparing them to other acts. My problem isnt with Gnr its with fans who denounce other rock shows when in reality, aside from going on later, GNR have the same set list formula.

Its funny you ask that question though. I have asked you the same question for quite some time now regarding what makes you the judge of who is a fan of the band and who isnt.

I generally feel the same as well. But when your shelling out your time and money you would hope the set list eventually changes. I think it will for the next tour so it should be great.

I know.

It's horrible!



Same old shit.

"We want a tour, we don't want a tour, we want an album, we want a tour, we don't want those songs to be played, we want that guy to play guitar, we want Axl to speak, we don't want him to say that...."




Depends.

Some shows were similar.

Mr. Brownstone was often the second song for example.


By the way, the 90s ended some time ago. I don't know why you expect things to stay the same...



Yes it does. Until they go out and say "we're gonna play what the people who don't attend this show wants us to play".




Yeah, the formula is: We play what we feel like, don't like it, well fuck you.

 :)



Is it funny?

Well the truth is, I can decide who my site is aimed at.

Not you.

So with that decision in mind, I can tell people that they might not be the kind of fans I'm doing this for.

Maybe you don't personify my idea of what a fan is. It's my opinion.

I believe I'm entitled to have one.






Well if it's such a concern, save you money and valuable time.

You can always read the setlists online and make your complaints.

No matter what they play, it'll never be perfect for some of you.





/jarmo

"Yeah, the formula is: We play what we feel like, don't like it, well fuck you."

what a great formula!! so they felt (about) exactly the same each show from 2001 on to start with jungle, easy, brownstone and only to play kohd, nr, ycbm and lald from the 30 songs illusion albums and rarely adding anything different? yeah, true rock n roll, sure. switching the songs more and leaving out the hits would be! but -even when having the big song catalgue- they decided not to do that and just because they did it is rock n roll? yeah, f*ck me, jesus! everything they do is rock n roll, off course it is, its Axl!. and this is coming from a fan who has been goin to several shows. constructive critism isnt a bad thing!

Yeah, I'm sure they felt like playing those songs at the shows since they did.

Do you think they played Liquor & Whores because there was a huge demand among GN'R fans to hear it?


If they wanna add different songs for the next tour, that'll be cool. If not, that's be cool too because I know they're doing what is right for them.

And when you do what you feel is right, that's when you get the best results.


Constructive criticism is welcome (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=54506.0).

Too bad you don't offer any right here in your posts. Or in that thread either which is ironic since you're the one bringing up the whole constructive criticism thing.

The whole thing isn't about ideas, it's more about complaints. Hardly what I'd consider constructive.



/jarmo

no, Jarmo! the point is that "formula" simply doesnt justify nearly the same setlists since 2001 but is used to do so in here. it probably would fit if they really would play that way which logically would result in much more different setlists and orders each night. but using this formular your way every band is fitting this Rock N Roll category.....so that surely doesnt and cant work out. my last post might have sounded a little harsh, ok....but thats simply more the reaction of the use for the lame formula in this case.

as for me not posting in that "welcome"-link for my wish setlist is that i simply dont have one. i just would like to have them switched a lot because thats what fits rock n roll much more and thats the reason why i just jumped in this discussion in here. further a changing setlist couldnt hurt the fans and the band much anyway.
basically that is was my setlist talking was all about from the start. if you call it complaints thats your decision, i think we could meet in the middle somewhere.

back to the topic i dont think anyone has the right to excluse some ticket buyers.

For what I've watched these GNR boards over the years some fans seem to want to put Axl under custody. He does not seem to get anything right..  ;) if you believe everything you read that is. It's one thing to discuss our differences and totally something else to go crazy over these matters and put demands on Axl. There's no way we can always agree with him on everything but then again we don't know the whole story and are not the ones in charge.

dear complaining haters:

maybe it's not that simple to mix up the set list every night.  that would mean the band would have to learn new songs, and what about the teleprompter?  how's the teleprompter guy going to be able to get axl the lyrics if he doesn't know what's going to be played next?  it might not be that easy for axl to just say, 'okay boys, let's rip into civil war.'  there's so much work and planning that goes on behind teh scenes for a major touring act like gnr.  it's not like they're a bar band or something.

personally, i hope on the OFFICIAL chinese democracy world tour, they only play chinese democracy.  after everyone's waited so long to hear this amazing album, it almost seems criminal to play anything BUT chinese democracy.  even if they have to play the whole album twice.  i could tolerate an encore with a few of the 'greatest hits,' but this next tour should be a celebration of all the blood, sweat and tears this band has put into their music.

That's true. If you just use that one thing as a "rule" for what's rock n' roll.

If you just say that having a setlist is rock n' roll, then most artists are.


But that wasn't my point.

The point is that GN'R does things their way. Including playing what they wanna play.

And that is essentially what rock n' roll is about (for me at least).




No.

But you gotta be honest.

Some people would probably be better off saving their parents money....



/jarmo

You know what I didn't get on the last tour? People being angry with the new band. Example; many times through the show in Detroit there were alot of people giving the finger to Richard, Tommy, Robin & Ron as they would be playing solos and what not. There were a few people trying to scream "YOU'RE NOT SLASH!" at Robin several times.

I'm not even joking, these people were serious about it. I honestly can't imagine spending $80 on a concert when I'm fully aware of who is playing and then act as if I'm upset when it actually happens.

I suppose those so called fan's have been in a closet or a cave the last 10 years.  They see oh Guns N' Roses is coming, so they show up and its the new lineup. It's pretty funny how they don't keep up with their favorite band.  You think they would but they don't, I had this happen to some people by me when I saw GnR back in 2006.  I felt like saying IF YOU WANNA SEE SLASH GO SEE VELVET REVOLVER.

I can't believe that people are still going to a GNR expecting to see Slash, it's amazing.

even so they wouldn't get angry or shout at the band would they if they were there for music.

abuse / bottle throwing bitches aren't welcome to the next tour.
that's the kind of audience I can't stand. not just at GNR shows. they're there to ruin the show for fans.

I'm ready for another tour..I dont mind the same set list, because the setlist is THAT DAMN GOOD!!

I do agree playing the exact same setlist with the exact same order of songs isn't exactly playing what u feel like. It is called a rehearsed set list.

Isn't a big deal or that important but when GNR break out Coma or Estranged live, that is some change up rock n roll shit.

Playing 10/12th of Appetite cause that is what most people remember isn't playing only what "you" feel like.

For the record, they didn't play the exact same set in same order evry nite in 2006/2007.

even tho it was the same GNR classic, it sounded somewhat different each nite.

and don't forget the jams, solos and covers not to mention irs better, twat,

So you're saying they didn't rehearse the songs they wanted to play... Right....





Even if they did play the same exact songs in the same exact order every night, do you only watch a great movie once and then you're done with it?


I'll give you an example. The shows I saw in Japan in 2007 might seem all the same if you just sit there by your computer reading the setlist. But if you were at those shows you'd know they were different.

The crowds aren't the same, the band isn't a bunch of robots.

Or take the European tour in 2006. There's something about seeing GN'R in sunlight that you just don't get by reading the setlist.




How would you know?




/jarmo

If u read what I said, I said there isn't anything wrong with it.

U are acting like they still get on stage with no setlist like back in the Illusion days and just play what they feel and that clearly hasn't been the case.

I am not saying anything negative towards GNR, they can do that everynight if they want and that is fine.

I, however, am pointing out what you and some others are saying as not being accurate when you say they play what they want and that is RNR like back in the day.

They clearly rehearsed a certain order and perform the songs in the exact order every show which is no different than any other band.

Good observation!

Unfortunately you're wrong again.



I see. You read what you want to read.

Whatever I say, you'll see what you want in it.

So answer me this: Who picked the songs GN'R picked for the past tours?

Did you beg them to play Liquor & Whores? How about You Gotta Move? Was that something the fans rallied for? Down On The Farm must've won some poll somewhere!


They do what they want to do. They play what they want to play.

That's rock n' roll.

How more simple can I explain it so you'll understand?

I'm not saying the setlist makes the band rock n' roll. It's the reasoning behind it.

This is why Bon Jovi is not rock n' roll.  :)




/jarmo

Its very simple Jarmo. You cannot compare the old gnr setlist formula to the current one. Its not that big of a deal but thats the way it is.

Why bring Bon Jovi into this? U obviously don't have a clue on that front so I'll let u slide. U will never find two setlists identical on any of their past tours. They play more obscure stuff than anyone. Hell one can say doing a country album is one of the more Rock N Roll things u can do cause that is taking a huge risk.



2002 was the same order every single show.

2006, yeah they added a couple new songs here and there, but u are acting like they are the only band in the history of the universe that plays a few different songs every show.

Hell Bon Jovi let the crowd pick the encore.


I have no problem with their setlist. I have a problem with you acting like they are the only band in the history of the world to play a different obscure every once in awhile in concert.

On the bon jovi front, they'd do a jukebox medley everynight mixed in with one of their songs. And u never knew night from night what covers they were going to throw out.

I don't see why people complain about this ! the albums out !! and I bet the next tour they do will be 90 percent Chinese Democracy, 5 percent AFD, and another 5 percent of UYL.  It will be diffrent, but that's not the point.  Jarmo is right not every show is the same ! for example  Robin's guitar could go out and he could leave the stage, Axl could get something thrown at him, They could play a new song.  The show I saw was excellent ! i've seen some bootlegs that were totally diffrent from my show.  Then again you don't hear me complaing.

I think people start threads sometimes without realizing exactly what they are saying.

People don't realize that a band can't be successful without fans. So for people to come on here and say things like:


"I don't care if CD sells 50k copies as long as I have it

"Certain People shouldn't go to shows'


Those statements even though u are trying to be a "FAN" u are really hurting the band and making it appear like u don't care about their success.


CD needed to sell well

The tours need to do well

all those things help GNR continue to keep their status as one of the biggest bands ever.

So maybe people need to care more about this stuff because if GNR do a tour that is a bloodbath for promoters, if they release albums that don't sell...

U have to wonder if maybe we will ever get anything else?

So I encourage everybody to go to the show whether u complain on a message forum or not. cause 10k looks a hell of a lot better in the stands, than 5k.

Who cares if people want to complain anyway on a forum? as long as they are respectful to the band at the concert, they can come on here and bitch all the want for all I care.

I personally don't understand why so many (or so many vocal people) have had a problem with the setlists.  I saw them three times in NYC in 2006, and once more in Minneapolis in Nov.  Axl and the whole band gave it their all every night.  They were all great performances, all filled with songs I love.

So, what is there to complain about?  What more can you expect or demand from a band?  Giving it their all is all I want, and the rest is up to them.

I didn't compare!

You're the ones saying shit like "it's not rock n' roll because they don't do the same thing they did in the 90s". Not me!

All I've kept repeating for a few of you, and you keep ignoring it, is that GN'R is doing what they've always done: what they feel like.

It's that simple!

You're the ones comparing and ignoring what I'm saying.



I don't know how to explain it to you so you'll understand.

I'm not using any big words, I thought it was pretty simple English but I guess not.

The two of you simply just don't fucking get it.




Because GN'R is never good enough for these people.

They have to find something to complain about so they don't seem like "ass kissers" or not objective.

It's so horrible to be considered a fan!



Exactly.






So? They're still not rock n' roll!

As I've said multiple times, and you two keep ignoring it, the matter isn't about what songs they play, in what order and how often on a tour, it's WHY they do it.





/jarmo

I dont think anyone here who is in their right mind would question the effort the band gives. Every show I have been too has been amazing and memorable.

I think future GNR tours will have  more of a diverse setlist but the past few tours were not diverse or "r n r"(in terms of setlists).

By what standard can you claim their "setlist" is not rock n roll?  All the shows I went to were nothing but pure rock n roll, including the set list.  The crowds went crazy, and everyone I talked to had a great time.  What is there to complain about in this?

Everyone goes to Gn'R shows, and has a great time!  That's pretty much the winning formula for a great rock n roll show.

again I 100% agree.

I originally brought it up because some people were talking about other acts compared to gnr. In regards to setlists, GNr is no different then most of the bands that some people were criticizing

Exactly: 2002 saw them at Leeds, went crazy in the pit at the front, Download Fest I remember sharing a joint with Arron and watching Tommy threaten to leave, that may not be a "Wonderful" thing, but its those little touches and little things that make them special, then in Manchester, since I was with my sister I was in seating yet rocking out because I was drunk, 3 times seeing them, my memory is sketchy but I'm guessing the setlist wasn't too different, but they were 3 totally different experiences, I'd say more but I remember less  :P

Anyone that doesnt like Axl's singing shouldnt go thats obvious.

As far as the late starts all the excuses are clearly nonsense.
Axl used to go onstage ontime when they were a support act, he made it on time at the Freddie Mercury gig. All this 'they do what they want ' stuff is garbage as well....going on late isnt rock n roll and rebellious, its selfish and lame., and strange.
If I scheduled an 8am time to look at buying Axl's car and then showed up at 10am and went....'im not a morning person' how would that go down?
What if Tommy was not going onstage on time??? is that cool??  Maybe the drummer shouldnt show up till midnight....yeh that'd be sooo rock n roll ' he does what he wants'

Last time I saw them my younger brother had his 15 year old mates with him and they all love GNR....half were forced to miss half the gig to catch the last bus, the other half had to pay for taxis...which isnt playmoney for a 15 year old,

Credit where its due, CD is a very very good album, the live show i saw was in the top 5 gigs ive been to , and I think Axl gets more than his share of criticism. BUT it isnt and never has been the band that goes onstage late or cuts shows short or simply doesnt arrive at the venue ontime its Axl......all of these things IMHO show a terrible lack of respect for fans, and people telling other people who love GNR's music not to go to shows is really wrong. The average person who loves the music but doesnt read message boards doesnt expect a 2 hr delay before they take stage, and in the REAL world this can severely screw peoples plans up.......and Ive yet to hear a good reason.... why 'im a night person' sheesh.....yeh?? harden the fuck up

Im a night person myself so the delay is fine by me....my workmates and younger friends who had to catch taxis etc were pissed off though, and fair enough.

one of the shows i saw started before 11pm, which was actually early, accounting for the opening band and all..
maybe they should start printing on the tickets, expect to get home really late!

I guess rock n' roll has always been lame then. If you think GN'R invented the whole idea of playing when they're ready, you're wrong.  ;)

Yeah, sure it's selfish to go on when you're ready to give the crowd your all. That must be the definition of selfish.




People need to realize a few things here.

We're not talking about robots.

Just because Bon Jovi can go on before 8PM doesn't mean it works for every other performer.

GN'R doesn't have a set time that they won't go on before. It seems like some of you think they never been on stage before midnight!




This isn't just a normal "job". If it was, I'm sure you'd have a lot more to complain about after the shows....





/jarmo

don't know what the big deal is. Saw 'em dec of 06.  I arrived halfway thru suicide girls, short break, helmet, short break, bach, short break, then gnr. Yeah it was late at that point, but it's not as if we were sitting and staring at an empty stage all night

I guess rock n' roll has always been lame then. If you think GN'R invented the whole idea of playing when they're ready, you're wrong.  Wink

Yeah, sure it's selfish to go on when you're ready to give the crowd your all. That must be the definition of selfish.





Your right Jarmo ,except I cant recall any other band in rock history who considered going on late as 'rebellious'.....there goes the neighbourhood this band goes on late :) Lock up your daughters :)

My point is they did fine in the early days supporting bands and going onstage on time....they did great at the Freddie Mercury gig etc etc etc......and when you are letting the young fans down, making life difficult for the older working fans, probably irritating your staff that dont want to work overtime, costing your band money etc....I just think its time to harden up a tad .

I only replied to the thread because the attitude that casual fans, who arent aware that Axl goes on late 'shouldnt attend'. I think these people have a right to be a little miffed. As I said I personally couldnt care less, I do however think the reasons given for late starts are quite soft.

Also when you say when 'they' are ready to go on...dont you mean 'he', im sure the rest of the band is willing and able to go on at the correct time.

If its all about being ready and fine and dandy to do so what would happen if say Axls ready to go on at 10pm and Dizzy goes no man im not feeling it yet dude, I'll be on in an hour? What do you think would happen?? He'd get his arse dragged up thats what.

So it is a tour for 2009?.....I really dont care what they play...I just pray to God to see them again!... :smoking:

one more time about the setlists:
even if they "might" have intentions to play whatever they feel like (the mentionend rock n roll-formula)......just look at the setlists, they are all available online. it occurs much more that 2006/07 they were mainly straight goin with a "~16/17 must songs to play and some others to add" formula along with a similar song order and the bonus songs being from the same small pool and only 4 out of 30 illusions songs. the statistic proves so. and that just doesnt fit "that" rock n roll-formula much and surely fails being used to defend the stable setlists. hell, even the Bon Jovi-setlists (mentioned above) appear more unpredictable, unexpected and spontanous.....things that fit into rock n roll more. too bad he sucks though  :hihi:

but things can change with setlists : ok:

on-topic again:
you cant do much if anything about: there are always people at shows you are getting annoyed from, let it be disgusting all the time screamers next to you, 2,10m sized people in front of you, too drunken ones etc. i for myself was about to beat up 2 people at the Rock Am Ring-show for being stupid drunken bad mouthers during the show most of the time...i'm still pissed they could hide away in the huge crowd.

Once again. I said it's the embodiment of the rock n' roll spirit to do whatever the fuck you want and not care about what others think of it.

It was me, not GN'R.




The Freddie Mercury gig was two songs.





/jarmo

hey i have an idea... why don't YOU, the 'supposed fan,' just quit trying to tell an artist how to do his thing.  i know that you think you're the most wise and knowledgable person out there, but maybe JUST MAYBE axl rose knows a thing or two more about what it takes to be axl rose than you do. 

if you have all the answers, why don't you just go out there and become a major superstar/greatest front man ever?  why don't you show us how it's all done?  enough of this arm chair quarterbacking!

i don't think any of us have the right to question what axl does or why.  he's a true artist and they all have their quirks.  axl performs better at night.  you perform better on the internet, attacking others when you'd never have the guts to say it to his face.

i can't believe this is what passes for fans these days.  i wonder of ozzy 'fans' spend their time on his forum complaining about how he shouldn't have done drugs because they just don't feel it's right.

Who cares about the same setlist? Fuck, most bands play same setlists...and make some 'little' changes during the tour... what is so wrong about that? It's like Jarmo said, it's not because we read about the setlist on a forum, that the show is the same...

I saw Guns 3 times ('93 , 2002 and 2006): I saw 3 different shows and 3 more or less other setlists...so no complaints so far for me! Ofcourse, if you watch 3-4 gigs in the same tour, you will have probably a same setlist, but that's your choice. You can't expect a band to change their setlist every show...

The only thing they should skip, are boring solo's  :P...I almost felt in sleep during the last show (or maybe I was too wasted  :hihi: )

GN'R is one of the last true rockbands out there! Respect it or fuck off!!

Of course you saw 3 different shows in 93, 02, and 06.  It was 3 different bands.

I cant see why anybody here can disagree with this like he says he couldn't care less and neither could I, It is not in the best interest of the band to go on so late as per the reasons stated above, id also like to add that GNR going on 2 hours dosnt seem too bad, but for myself and others out there that have to travel to the gigs this amounts to missing all forms of transport to get home and end up being stranded at train stations all night it kinda deflates the occasion a tad.
I see bands regular and most co-ordinate show to allow for transport, the only other exception was the fratellis when Celtic are in the champions league!

Nothing bad with parents paying theyr 16 year olds for a tickit.. I would do the same for my kids. If people complain about stuff like "going on to late", "Axls voice", "no Slash" they should stay at home or go to a Velvet Revolver Concert... :P

Or at least shut up, and dont bother other GnR fans with theyr fucking complaining...

My only argument is "it is what it is".

I mean I know this is how GNR operates, I've known it for years. So everytime I see them I know to make arrangements ahead of time to take care of myself.

Some may say "Isn't that dumb though? Why should you have to make arrangements just to see a band?", my answer to that is "I don't have to".

For me, the 2 hours that GNR are on stage have outweighed all the negative each and every time. Until a time occurs when I feel otherwise then I'll still be going.

Gnr never followed that trend back in the day


 The setlists from the older tours could not be recited like they could have been at new gnr shows.



In many respects you are absolutely correct. But in terms of set list "formula" they are no different than any other band

If people complain about stuff like "going on to late", "Axls voice", "no Slash" they should stay at home or go to a Velvet Revolver Concert..

[bI agree wth the part about people wanting Slash should stay home. But the "going on late" is a legitimate gripe. Complaining about Axl's voice is as well. Any lead singer runs into that problem. I've heard awful clips, and I've heard amazing clips. I for one am not crazy about the LIVE ERA material. I have GN'R bootlegs that sound better.[/b]

I remember the setlists from the illusions tour, they also played a lot of the same for some gigs...

Yeah.


If you read any setlists from like 1993, you'd notice that the starting song was often It's So Easy or Welcome To The Jungle. Occasionally they used Nightrain.

You can see trends in them if you look at the setlists. The acoustic part was often similar from show to show etc.

The sets didn't vary as much as some like to remember.






/jarmo

You may be a current fan, :) you may be an old fan, :) hell you might be fans of both, :) you may be and old fan and have forgotten about them until now, :) you may belong to a web for GNR and maybe you don't, : ok: ANYBODY in any catagory who calls themselves a fan whether it be old or new, certainly knows and or should have learned by now, Axl marches to the beat of his own drum, 8) it shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone, he takes the stage late most of the time, :o so if you work, you take the next day off, :yes: if you have children you make arrangements, ::) free yourself of your commitments, because now it's all about you and the show, nothing else matters, cuz you know when Axl and Co hit that stage at what ever fricken time it is, it's gonna be nothing but pure magic to your eyes and ears,  8) and if you have a problem with that, or the above mentioned do not work out for you, well.....you probably don't belong at the show, and if in fact, you may be one of those who don't attend at all, but sit home and bitch behind your computer screen, remember, Axl has said he is not playing for you anyway.

^^^ THANK YOU!! THats's what I've been trying to say all along. Any self respecting fan should know that Axl Rose has always done what he wants, the way he wants to. Always has, always will. So why is it still such a shock? If you're going to a gnr show, you expect a late start, possible intervals, pauses for rants, obscenities, shouting etc. Its all part and parcel of the GnR experience. If you don't want that, don't go. If you do go, and aren't happy with the way Axl handle things, don't come back shouting at us, we don't give a shit. We know what Axl is like, its what we've come to expect.

Sounds like you get your moneys worth to me!  It's all part of the show.  The only way it would bother me is if the venue shut down concessions, and I had to sit for 2 hours without beer.  I can't wait to actually go...closest I have come is the PPV Paris (I think) concert...never been to a show.

People who complain about late starts need to fuck off. If they dont already know about Axl's late starts, fan or not, need to perhaps at least learn a little about the band theyre going to see. Besides, when the band came on about an hour and a half maybe 2 hours late at Eastern Creek it was awsome. People were having fun...and then when those big red letters flashed across the big screen... GUNS N ROSES....Man, the electricity that could be felt when the crowd simply exploded into cheers as the band took the stage was amazing and worth the wait alone!!!

As for set lists...Id not give a damn if the band played the same songs at every concert I attend, Id still get excited...I mean, Ive only ever been to one GnR concert (Eastern Creek, Sydney, Australia 1993) and at the end of the concert I wished I could watch it again, and again and again.

These things being said, I dont think people should be banned from a GnR concert. I mean, if some fuck-wit wants to complain about late starts, then great, let them, its a free country after all...Just so long as they realise that they might piss off about 10,000 people standing close by. If some bitch wants to scream that she wants Slash or Duff or Izzy or who-ever, then let them, and also let the new GnR fans slam the fuck out of them (verbally or physically, either way is fine).

Why am i not surprised such a stupid thread started a huge argument.

This thread should of just been deleted before it had even began. What a pointless waste of internet space.


On that note, my opinion is.

I dont care what the setlist is. Its how they play it, and how they are onstage. When i saw them they put energy in n rocked the fuck out. I had a good time and heard alot of songs i like live. I was content.

"We wanna dedicate this song, to the people that try to hold you back. The people that tell you how to live. The people that tell you how to dress. The people that tell you how to talk. The people that tell you what you can say and you can't say. I personally don't need that. I don't need that shit in my life. Those are the kind of people that have been getting me down. They make me fell like somebody, somebody out there is OUT TA GET ME."

W. Axl Rose

I think it is more about having positive audience at the shows.  We the fans deserve a to see a great show, Axl deserves to give us that, regardless of what time it is or what setlist the band chooses. Nobody wants to hear negativity, and I'm pretty positive those kinds of fans piss Axl right off. I've seen it myself. 

PS you don't need to shout!!!

It's funny. I've been shown that quote in the past by people who think they can do as they please on our board.

Anyway, it's funny because you can use that quote describing those same people as well. The ones who think Axl should do this and be that way etc etc.

All these people who have lists of "should"s for Axl and GN'R.

Kinda ironic that it describes them....




/jarmo

agreed. but it is a 2-way street. it describes some members of the core fan base that want to control who are allowed to attend shows and how those in attendance should act. kind of a dangerous precendent if you ask me.

Why though would you put your time and money into a show, attend it and behave badly, upset those around you and possibly even the performer, that is what I might call dangerous all the way across the board.

Jarmo's theory is usually correct; daddy pays for it.

Or sometimes it's the wrong people getting free tickets. I know a person who works for Universal and she gave a lot of promo tickets to people in order to help promote GNR. Since those people didn't pay, they care about GNR or the show. So many of them were antagonizing fans before and during the show.

Luckily, none of them were close enough to cause some shit with the band. I enjoyed the hell out of the last show here in Detroit and I'd love for them to have every reason to come back.

you're asking the wrong guy, cause i personally would not do that. and i'm not defending people who do ruin things for others.

i've been to several gnr shows over the years and i only saw that happen once. it was in vegas and Axl started bitching about the old lineup. quite a few people started booing and i heard people yell "shut up and sing." and ya know what, if Axl is gonna preach i think it's ok for people to boo if they don't like what they're hearing.

BUT, i thought the point of this thread was to tell people that if you have ever complained about Axl's late starts and/or vocal problems, you shouldn't go to his show.

personally, i think that is a ridiculous statement. in fact, i think even Axl would disagree with the comments in this threads. and as a fan i'd say the more people that go to the show the merrier. cause i know that the performance of the band will convert even the haters.

Can you let me know where you get those cool rose tinted glasses from, i want a pair for myself  ::)

I guess the question (not to you specifically) is this then; If you know they're going to start late and that's going to ruin your time, why go?

Your mother.

at any gnr show.  8)


yay, like that donington show 2006.
yep, they will afterwards but during the show they are still nuisance for the rest of the house. I think fans have a right to complain about them.

Some people here need to get a dose of the real world 09' you cant roll up 2+ hours late and expect everyone be kiss ass unless you go by the name of Robert and Jimmy.   
The whole issue would be solved if the gig tickets stated GNR -11pm onwards. Then nobody would complain or moan as they would know exactly what the deal is.
It must of been said 00s of times that 'real fans should expect this anyway'...fine .. but what about those new fans or those just going to check out the show or even those going to rekindle the GNR flame? The majority of which will be wondering where slash is when WTTJ kicks off, It hardly gives these people the impression that GNR is a serious band or are interested in a new audience which in my personal opinion is the most important thing to GNR right now as without new fans the attendances will dwindle.

I bet there's been people whining since the beginning of time!


The whole issue would be solv
As far as I know, the tickets don't say when GN'R will be onstage.  :P


So if it says 8PM, you must be quite naive to expect the opening acts to be done by then!

Now, imagine that you have two opening acts plus the set change. And it all starts around 8PM....



/jarmo

One show in 06 I waited 3 hours. Did my body hurt? Did my feet hurt? HELL YES!!!

But it was well worth it. I wasn't gonna spend $90 and then complain about one of the best rock shows I have ever seen.

I got goosebumps and the little hairs on my neck stood up.

I have an issue with people spending money to go see GNR and then complain about the time it takes Axl to get on stage. Axl is AXL. You should know that prior to spending money to go see the band. That is what makes GNR. Unpredictability.

If you want the show to start at 9pm on the dot and have no surprises... Bon Jovi is always touring.

GNR is not the band for you.

we've just talked about the setlists from Bon Jovi being full of surprises and being more rock n roll than the ones from Axl cause Bon Jovi's appear much more unpredictable, unexpected and spontanous  ;)

Bon Jovi's a joke.  He isn't rock n roll more like soft rock.  GnR show I went to in 06 didn't start till 11:45pm  BIG DEAL ! I would of waited till 5 in the morning if I had too.

To this point:  I don't understand why it's such a "badge of courage" that we are willing to wait until midnight for a show to start.  Sure we wait.  But that doesn't make it right.

And to the original topic creator:  Those "certain people" paid the same money for their ticket as you did.  I don't advocate throwing anything or booing.  That's stupid.  But that person's opinion of the show afterwards is no better/worse than yours. 

oh please.  Bon Jovi have guest stars onstage from time to time, At my show, Leann Rimes fuckin came out and did a duet!

Bon Jovi change their set list up EVERY show, want proof? I can give u a link, they let their fans VOTE on the encore song.

Bon Jovi also had the NUMBER 1 tour of 2007-2008.

so maybe u should choose a different band to try and make a dumb point with?

People don't realize that every person that buys a ticket isn't glued to the history of Axl Rose

If the dude is 3 hours late and someone gets mad? how the fuck can u get mad at somebody for being upset?

Its the ole turnaround thing people use on those who say I have freedom of speech

well, Axl has the right to do whatever he wants, he has the right to play what he wants, come on stage when he wants BUT those who buy tickets and are in the crowd also HAVE THE RIGHT to get pissed if they so choose.

If your home sports team is getting beat by a shit team, people boo..... It is the same thing. Your ticket, your right.

you comment as if every person that attends a GnR concert goes b/c they are that person's favorite band and that the person going follows the band as obsessively as members of this board....... :-\

as hard as it seems to believe, I'm sure there are plenty of people that are unaware that Slash is no longer in the band (how I don't know :hihi:); I went to see them in 2002 in Philly with my older sister and her future husband and she didn't know the band she loved split up a long time ago :-\

too bad we never got to see that show :'(

but would they shout at the band if they weren't obsessive?

The poster band for pop rock for everybody to enjoy. Not too hard rock to alienate anybody.

They're the perfect example!

They're a pop band for fuck's sake.

It all seems like a big act to give you what you want while taking your money.

Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of pop acts have done the same for years.


Just don't confuse it with authenticity and integrity.

They're the kind of shit that GN'R was an answer to in the 80s.  :)







/jarmo

Probably. A lot of people seem to get caught up in the moment. Or maybe they like GnR, but aren't obsessive. And, I've actually met people before who had no idea that Slash was out.

i mean would those who weren't obsessive but indifferent to who they were seeing shout at the band like 'where is ...!!!' ?

Yeah, GNR killed hair poser bands, but they had absolutely zero effect on Bon Jovi and u know that is the truth.


Anyhow, a couple years ago, I was on a message forum and it is true, there are people out there who really dont know. I know that seems very hard to believe.

When someone buys a ticket and it has 8pm, they expect that regardless of the history or whatever.

If my brother or friend had tickets to GNR and I didn't tell them, they wouldn't know about the late starts etc.

GNR are authentic don't get me wrong, and if they don't care, we shouldn't care.

I don't care if people kept going to Bon Jovi shows.

I didn't say they killed anything, I'm saying they offered an alternative to the boring pop rock that so many confuse for something real.




That's like having a dinner reservation for 8:00 and expect the main course to arrive at 8:00!

 :hihi:



/jarmo

i would say GnR got all the press, buzz, hype, etc. during the latter days of AFD and all UYI (plus a lttle more) than Bon Jovi ever got during Slippery When Wet days/tour and Bon Jovi was the biggest act out there

^
THANK YOU

Exactly!

so why is it now, people try and act like Axl is like some coffee shop Indy artist who won't "Prostitute" himself by doing interviews etc.

I think that is what throws people the most.

Axl had an MTV reporter meet him for an interview when he was getting out of jail, made 3 of the most elaborate and expensive and greatest videos ever seen on TV, had HUGE amazing over the top world tours, gave some of the most candid and honest interviews ever

So now, for people to act like Axl has never done this kind of shit and all that, it is just not the truth and is just very un GNR like.

That is what throws me for a loop.

The music/show is what makes u a great band, the starting time doesn't.

Thats like saying no other band is authentic because they play on time.

Now?

Axl's always done things on his own terms.

That is essentially what is pissing people off!


He doesn't play by the "rule book" so to speak. He makes his own rules!

People don't get that.

"Why can't he do this, why can't he do that? Other bands/artists do it!"

"He'd be more popular if he did this!" Blah blah blah...



True, what a great way to get his side of the story out to his fans.



Don't forget all the GN'R fans who hated them!

By the way, he didn't edit down the songs so they'd be played more on the radio.

Integrity.



Yeah, but on his terms.


You need to realize that not everybody who tours is whoring himself out. Not everybody doing interviews is doing them to become (more) famous.


Some people want to be seen. They need to be noticed, no matter what the cost.


Axl's obviously not one of them.




/jarmo

Axl has a way of stating himself that mesmerizes the reader/listener to the point they think there is no way Axl is being anything but 100% honest.  He can be humble and unassuming at times, even as he is intimidating the shit out of you and getting concessions before you realize it.  Someone you can't put a pulse on even as you are dying just to get a piece of.

I like Bon Jovi. It wasn't an insult. They're a great band for their scene. They're Pop/Rock.

But GNR has the element of danger. I like going to the show and wondering if Axl is gonna throw a fit and storm off stage and say goodnight... OR you will watch the greatest damn show you've ever seen.

It's a toss up everytime. The 06 tour wasn't plagued with failures/cancelalations... to me it was successful, with the exception of a few dates.


I don't pay $100 or even $50 to go see a band I have no idea about. Maybe I shouldn't expect the same out of people... I don't want to overestimate intelligence out there.

Not my point, everybody knows there will be opening acts, I know the tickets dont tell you when GNR are on stage, perhaps they should. A lot of tickets do.. have the opening times and the time the main act starts. If GNR just put this on the tickets nobody would bitch about waiting and could sit in a bar outside the venue till 11 if they wished. The main gripe is that it takes 2+hours after the opening acts finish...this is been late and pisses people off.

The fans have paid extortionate ticket prices to start with so they have every right to be pissed.

They didnt kill the glam metal movement. Because the glam bands were smart and blended with this change. 

They lost it when the alternative scene rose to popularity in the early 90s. No movement can last for ever.

But, no matter what people say. "its fake, its crap". It lasted a good 10 years. Name any other specific scenes that lasted an entire decade and generation.

Not very many. 

I dont care whos from the "streets" and who isnt. Not everybody has to be poor to pick up and instrument and put on a show. Of course, there is a level to everything. Example Runs son's band "Team Blackout" now thats a band you cant take seriously, thats a person thats loaded with money and didnt do anything to earn it. Thats a fake band.

All the glam bands barely had any money yet managed to fund and create an entertaining live experience, cant knock it. Even if you dont like the music, you cant knock the shows. No shoegazing. I would have to disagree with anyone that says Guns N Roses were not image conscious, lets be honest. They looked fucking cool. As for Axls crazy combinations of clothing, i doubt he just decided one day to wear those, thats some thought out stuff. He had his own trainers made for godsake haha. So lets cut the bullshit, all the bands you guys refer to offered the full package, whether people like to admit it or not. I cant knock any of them. They all played their instruments great and put on a REALLY good live show. Thats what its all about.
 

Most Glam Metal acts provided that, Bon Jovi (for a time) provided that, Guns N Roses certainly provided that.

Take the bands for what they are, they are people that love music, learnt to play an instrument. And then put on a good show.  That goes for the majority of alternative bands too. Just look at NIN's amazing stage set ups they have had over the years. Look at Marilyn Mansons images and "personas" he has taken over the years.  Look at the fuckin CRAZY shit Perry Farrel has wore in his time.

Ill take 90s and right back to the 50s music scenes over the 00s music scene anyday.

So D, Jarmo and every one else argueing over different bands and "integrity" and why they do this and why they dont. Lets just stop and respect that the artists may make some confusing, annoying, strange, or commercial decisions which you may not agree with. But aslong as they make music you continue to like, and put on shows that are worth the hard earned money. Its cool.

When I saw them at the Hammerstein and MSG in 2006; I didn't show up till about 10:30 and timed it just right :hihi:

Extortionate?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Maybe he's thinking GN'R tickets are expensive....





/jarmo

Maybe he needs to take a good look around.

Perhaps!


I guess with a weekly allowance of $5, the tickets are expensive?


/jarmo

Maybe he could ask for a ticket for his birthday.

well if you're so broke you shouldn't. don't pester your parents for tix.

The whistles, shouts, and chants of 'GUNS AND ROSES' growing louder all added to the excitement of it all. Best Concert i've been to so far. i'd gladly wait for hours. As a compromise more bands to open the gigs would be great - unsighned even better  :-*

Whos broke? the only people that are broke are bums and the foolish bankers, AS to the ticket prices it was a reference to the entire live show scene. Its daylight robbery even at the smaller venues such as the Apollos and Academy's not there fault of course.
Anyway this whole thread has gone way off topic so my two cents on the subject at hand is print the tickets with two times opening acts ... GNR.....

If you pay for the ticket and want to bitch, you can.  If you go to a football game and want to boo, you can.  As long as people are paying for the tickets, i am not going to tell them how they must act as long as they don't brake any rules.  I don't like people who rock the boat either, but if the product you see on the field or on stage is poor, you have a right to bitch.  That being said, I have never had an urge to bitch at a GNR show.  But if i wanted to, I should be able to.

Maybe, but if I've got some jerk-off standing in front of me ruining my show and my experience by booing everything, well how is that fair? 

Yeah, I also like to go boo at operas because the fat lady is hitting the high C a little flat.

What a bitch.

Here is the thing...GnR go on late...Okay, so some people wouldnt realise this (though you'd think they'd check online to read about bands/people theyre going to see...I do when Im seeing a band or performer that Im only a casual fan of)... Axl isnt going to change. And yes, you can winge about it, but its like pissing on a house fire, it does nothing, the fire still rages and Axl will still go on late.

You wanna boo and hiss and complain at a GnR show? Fine, but just dont expect the people around you to be too receptive and expect to get your face smashed in sometime either during or after the show.

and if you had the nerve to do it next to me, i would punch your lights out for axl.

Nah, he'd bitch about stuff while they were performing TIL, so you'd be too busy sobbing to get in a fight  :rofl:

yeah and then when TIL is done then everyone would kick the shit out of him

Post of the day.

There are a number of people (apparently, I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure), who have been going to G N' R concerts, waiting for it to go a bit quiet, then shouting at the top of their voice "Where's Slash?" "We want Slash" etc.

Slash is not in G N' R.  Saying things like that is unfair, especially to the newer band members.  Taking to a stage in front of all those people is never easy.  Basically being told you're crap while you're slogging your guts out performing is just not right.

Why do people pay money and then do this?  If they want Slash, why don't they go to VR?  Or Snakepit.  Don't go to see a band he isn't in and then complain when he's not in it.

I either didn't hear that stuff at the concert I went to, or was too drunk to notice (quite possible).  I can see if someone didn't know that the old members were gone, but that should be old news by now.  I don't agree with those that say that people bitching about the time shouldn't attend, but I do agree that people shouldn't be there bitching about who's in the band.

In regards to Axl's voice --

Personally, I understand that the guy isn't 25 years old anymore.  He can't sing like he used to and that's okay.  But my issue was more the choice of songs.  I mean sweet Jesus, he should at least realize his own limitations and not attempt to sing stuff like "Out to Get Me" in his squeaky voice of today.  It doesn't exactly sound pissed off as that song is supposed to sound.



Isn't that what Gilby Clarke said about Axl on Behind the Music?  By the time Axl was ready to go on stage, he and the other guys were hammered.   :hihi:

More like thousands...


The selfish comment is ironic because you're wrong.  When Axl goes on late, he's the selfish one.  Why?  Because your other statement is also wrong.  When thousands of people buy tickets which in turn pay Axl's salary, THEY are his responsibility.  That's his job.  Period.

I do agree that complaining won't change Axl, it certainly never has.  But don't delude yourselves into thinking that everyone has to concur with Axl's tardiness.  And it doesn't make someone any less of a "fan" because they don't agree with everything Axl does.

I agree!

You certainly are entitled to have an opinion Jarmo.  But you're mistaken about the "truth" that you presented there.  The TRUTH is that you do not get to decide who this site is aimed at.  By emblazening the name GUNS N ROSES across your site, that very name is what determines who this site attracts.  Not you.  Because you see my friend, the name GUNS N ROSES is much bigger than the name Jarmo (I know, ouch!).

Fans from all over the world are attracted by that name, not the name Jarmo.  They bring to this site their own opinions, passions, and interpretations which are inspired by the name GUNS N ROSES.  You don't get to determine that for them.  The only thing you can do is single out those whose opinions you don't like and attempt to ostracize them from Guns N Roses' fanbase using whatever your definition of the word "fan" is.

You can spend your money to fashion this site as you wish, but as long as the name GUNS N ROSES is on the homepage, you have to accept that it's going to inevitably attract fans of Guns N Roses whose viewpoints are not necessarily in agreement with yours, and you can't change that any more than the rest of us can change the fact that Axl is always fucking late!   : ok:




You are 100% correct.

This thread overall is ridiculous and distressingly naive.  If Axl himself were to say "I don't want complainers to buy tickets to my shows", he'd be shooting himself in the fucking foot.

Concert attendance is ultimately one thing.  A number.  That's it.  A number.  So are album sales.  It doesn't matter if protagonist John Doe, antagonist Joe Schmoe, or fucking Adolf Hitler comes to Axl's shows, a ticket sold is a ticket sold.  That's all that matters in the big picture.  All you people claiming to be "fans" of Axl's band need to realize how you're essentially wishing harm on the band by stating that certain people not buy tickets.

I dont agree with everything Axl says or do....but I still love the guy....I accept Axl how he is, thats my choice, and I dont think Im less fan than anyone here if Im not kissin Axls ass all day long, I know he will never show up on time....and maybe will upset me lil bit cuz waiting 2 hours in a crowd of thousands of people isnt funny, my feets and my back hurts like hell...but....I dont care!...I will get over it as soon I hear the first riff!...and I will do it over and over cuz just see GNR is the best thing!....I think by now (after 20 years) people and fans know how GNR rules... :peace:

I agree with you. Axl has his faults. Admitting that doesn't make you any less of a fan. In fact, I prefer that to stepford fans, who see Axl as some sort of God who has no faults and can do no wrong.
He has his faults, he can be an asshole, but he still rocks!

'round and 'round we go......

The problem with your (and others) argument concerning "goes on late" and "tardiness" is that just because YOU consider it "late" or "tardy" DOES NOT MAKE IT FACT!!!  The tickets people buy indicate that the overall show starts at 8 PM or whatever ..... and I'm pretty sure that that's the time the opening act DOES IN FACT hit the stage.

As far as I know, IN THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY, GNR HAS NEVER GIVEN AN ETA FOR WHEN THEY WOULD HIT THE STAGE!!!

Also, if you check out the history of the time GNR hits the stage, I believe you'll find that it's fairly consistent in proportion to the time the opening act starts.

Just like 'beauty', apparently 'tardiness' is in the eye of the beholder, too.


FACT:  Whatever time GNR does hit the stage, 97% of their 'ticket-buying-bosses' always gives them an "OVERALL OUTSTANDING JOB PERFORMANCE" rating in their evaluations.  ;D

yeah gypsy but u are twisting what he is saying though.

Bridge, from what I read hasn't said the show isn't "GREAT" that isn't what is being said.



What I have been saying is, we live in a microwave society. Everybody wants what they want NOW.  waiting 2 hours when u are the biggest band in the world and when everyone is hanging on your every move and you have a sold out tour and are selling tens of millions of albums is one thing.

Doing the same thing TODAY, when u are trying to introduce a new band people are already lukewarm about, makes that uphill climb even steeper.


The numbers don't lie. U can blame the economy for CD's sales, but u can't blame it for the US tour and the half empty arenas.

people *not me* I am speaking of the general public, don't want to wait around 2 hours to see a concert.

Hell, I don't think people would do that to watch a sporting event or anything else.


People are fast movers these days, everybody is rushed and busy trying to fit a ton of shit into a small window and most don't have a few hours to just sit around waiting.


If Axl wants to play at 2am, that is fine

however, I don't want to hear lame excuses about people not being "fans" when GNR are playing clubs and theaters and overseas festivals.


I'll use my restaurant analogy again.  there could be a restaurant that has the absolute greatest food in the world, but, if u consistently get shitty service, food cooked wrong, order wrong, have to wait an hour for your food to come, find a hair in it etc  chances are, u aren't gonna frequent that restaurant even though the food is the greatest.

If takes 2 hours after the headline finish playing to show up THATS BEEN LATE, and we all know that, and maybe some people will not put up w that, if I show up late at work almost everyday I gonna get fired no matter how good I am, not everybody are hard die fans like us and not everybody gonna support GNR like us, this is just my opinion, and as I said bfore, I still love Axl and still support him, and I will be there in the next show regardless at what time they show up. :peace:

Not true. On the '91 tour my tickets CLEARLY said "around 8pm"  :hihi:

I do agree that complaining won't change Axl, it certainly never has.  But don't delude yourselves into thinking that everyone has to concur with Axl's tardiness.  And it doesn't make someone any less of a "fan" because they don't agree with everything Axl does.
[/quote]

___________________________________________________________________________

Yes but people buy tickets to the shows knowing this and still complain about it?    ::)

Are you really that clueless? Nowhere did I say they come here because of me. But that's what you had to do. Make it personal. Since you got no case to rest on.



By your logic, any place that has a sign that says Bar should allow anyone in as long as they like to drink. Hey, after all, bars are for drinking and drinkers right?

So by your logic, a bar could not kick out any idiots that disturb their operations.


How about a Guns N' Roses concert?

It doesn't matter what kind of a moron it is, he/she is a fan and can not be evicted. Right?

 ::)


Get a clue. You need to understand that all these GN'R sites aren't listed in your rights.

The sooner you become a bit more humble, the better.




The reservation is at 8PM so the main course should arrive at 8:10PM at the latest. Otherwise it's LATE.

Also, everything about the food should be just like you specified, no matter if the menu says they don't do what you asked for.

And you have the right to decide who cooks the food too.

And then in the end, you get a $300 meal and pay like a third. But yet you complain because all of the above didn't happen.



/jarmo

I love this site and always visit and I hope to see Axl on tour in the UK this year, but it doesnt change the fact that this IS a GN'R site for all fans of GN'R regardless of how you view them(not that it puts you inthe wrong, your entitled to have a view how this site works).

Anyway, even if you go to a show knowing what Axl can be like, and fully expecting him to go on "late" doesnt make it right to make people wait for so long. Its irrelevant anyway, Axl knows what he does, clearly isnt apologetic for it so its down to the people if they wanna go or not. I dont think its down to anyone to tell someone else to not go and if there are people there shouting for Slash or whatever its down to Axl and the band to shut them up by putting on a great show...

Some concerts are 18+. How can they decide it's not for younger fans? Every fan should have the right to attend according to your logic.






/jarmo

The sooner you take your own advice, the better

Who cares what their rating are after the performance? It's irrelevant to the argument.

Axl is always late, and that kind of sucks. I have obviously always stuck around, but it would be more considerate to all the people who bought tickets to not leaving them waiting around all night.

This coming from one of the people who keeps whining about how I choose to run the site.  ::)

By the way, you're one of the last people I take advice from. :)





/jarmo

It's quite simple really... If you bought a ticket, you deserve to go and if you didn't like the show afterwards, it's your right to voice your unhappiness.  Now I agree it's a little lame for people to complain about setlists and start times to shows that they weren't even there for.  However, when the show starts at 12:30 on a Wednesday night (now Thursday morning) as it did in Toronto in 2006, I'll bet a vast majority of people who were excited to see GNR (even without Slash and the former members) wouldn't have minded an earlier start time.  I came with fourteen people and left with nine at the conclusion of Paradise City as five of my friends had to leave due to work the next morning or couldn't afford cab fare because the subway system in Toronto shuts down at 1:30.  

People shouldn't have to wait two to three hours for a band to get their asses on stage.  I don't care how "bad-ass" you think Axl and co. are, it's a shitty thing to do and does little help the mood for the rest of the night.  I know how initially people's anger turns into ecstasy when the band finally does come on, but an hour later, after the second or third guitar solo, most people were back in their seats, some making very little noise.  Had it been a Friday or Saturday night, then I'd be a little more empathic to the band, but not on a Wednesday fucking night.  Axl might be a rock star, but the rest of us are not and he should respect that since we are the ones supporting his lifestyle.

Bottom line, I'm taking issue with the shows that I attended because I paid for a ticket.  If you weren't there, you shouldn't complain about those who were and weren't happy about logistical errors.

Cheers,

Andrew

I went to see AC/DC last week. It was a great show, 20,000+ people having a blast, dancing, and rocking their asses off. The first band left the stage at about 8:35-8:40, and AC/DC came on at 9 pm and played about 100 minutes. Everyone stood the whole time, a really great show. The experience was in no way  diminished nor was  it any less  of a rock n' roll experience by the fact the band came on stage on time and everyone was leaving the venue by about 11 pm.

Although my ears were ringing from the loudness, I got home at a reasonable hour, got some sleep, and was able to get up the next  morning and went to work. It was a really great experience from all perspectives--got to enjoy a great rock n' roll band and my next day was not fucked up.

incorrect. if you go through the last tour some of  the shows started very early.

and he's apologized for the late start.  

probably it's not something he can do.

Oh, so you never saw people who attended the shows make ridiculous claims that you knew were bullshit?

All in the name of having an opinion....





/jarmo

Run it as you wish. I could careless anymore.

I wasnt talking about how to run the site. I was saying you should take your own advice and be more humble

How would you know anything about that?

 8)



/jarmo

Great post on the AC/DC concert.

Like I have said a million times, Axl can do what he wants, but if he doesn't realize how his actions affect his band, their popularity is gonna continue to go down to where no promoter will won't to touch GNR. no promoter wants a blood bath at the box office.


not only is it not fair to the ticket buyer but it also isn't fair to the new members who are trying their best to earn cynical people's support.

It would be like buying a ticket to "The Wrestler" or some other movie and u have to sit through all the previews AND THEN wait another 90 minutes in darkness with the radio playing waiting. 

by the things you do and dont do

 8)

Just because I don't pretend to like you and laugh at your jokes, doesn't really mean I'm not humble.  : ok:

Like in real life, you can't please everybody. So why try? Especially when you don't even agree with those people to begin with.

Sorry if that offends you.




And you know this how?





Talk about a bad analogy!

You're saying getting up on stage is like turning the projector on.

How many shows have you played in front of thousands of people?



The truth is, people are spoiled.

So one night of the year you don't get to be in bed by 11PM. The horror!

You got to see your (supposed) favorite band play a great show and have a memory for life. Maybe you lost some sleep, so what?

So if the alternative is no concert and no memory for life. Is that better? At least you got to be in bed by 11PM.



There's a lot of fans who never had the chance to attend a show because GN'R never played anywhere close to them and they'd probably love to go see a show.

Even if it started at 1AM.


That's the difference.


Maybe I have a different point of view because all the concerts are away from home for me. GN'R's (and most big acts) closest shows to me are always hours away. So lack of sleep is the norm.



Also, are you guys upset when games go to overtime?

How many of you Canadians are upset when a hockey game doesn't end after three periods?



/jarmo

A-men, jarmo!  that should shut them up for a while. 

people are spoiled.  and they think it's axl's responsbility to keep spoiling them and if they just whine and cry enough like little children, then axl will suddenly change his mind and do exactly what they want, exactly when they want it.  well t.s.  the world doesn't work that way, and axl is no different. 

if you don't like staying up a little past your bed time, then you shouldn't be at a rock concert anways.  and certainly not gnr.  so do axl, the band, and the REAL fans a favor, and next time they're on tour STAY HOME!  your negativity will not be missed.

bad analogy Jarmo
I didn't say it is like turning a projector on, I am saying, if people had to wait in a theater 2 hours before the movie that was suppose to start at 7:30 came on, they would be screaming for a refund and would probably never come to that theater again. does that sound familiar? A band as HUGE as GNR should never play to half empty arenas, so u tell me why that is?


If the hockey game started 2 hours late, then hell yeah people be booing like hell.

my point is, nobody wants to wait 2 hours for their entertainment no matter how good it is.


like the AC/DC post above, they came on at 9pm and it was one of the greatest experience of those people's lives.

When I saw Prince in Knoxville, he came on at 9pm and it was still the greatest show I've ever seen

Had he came out at 11pm, I don't think that would change the quality of the show.


people hate waiting.

if Axl wanted to play from 9pm till 1am, that is fantastic. but when people wait around for 2 hours with nothing to do, normally u get pretty frustrated and bored which takes away from the concert experience.


if what I am saying isn't true, explain to me why the tours haven't had anything remotely resembling a sell out that wasn't in NY or something?


People either

A: fear he won't show
B: don't want to wait till 11:30Pm


It doesn't matter what u or I think a rock concert would be, it matters obviously to the thousands and thousands who no longer spend money on this band.

I told you, I have no problem with any of that. I wouldn't go to a GNR concert through the week due to College

weekend, sure! he can come out at 3am for all i care but u have to think bigger than just yourself and not many of u are doing that.

Do you honestly think I care if you like me or not?  Your not humble because your not a classy guy. Your actions show that. You have a one track mind and if people arent in that lane then they can fuck off. Thats your mentality. It has nothing to do with agreeing with me or anyone else. Your whole attitude is lame and you lack class. Thats all.

I would bet the band members would disagree with your statement. If they had their choice Im sure they would rather play sooner than later.

I could careless about start times myself. It adds to the excitement, energy, and mystique of the show. I could see how it pisses people off but they know the deal going in. If I could fix one thing about GNR it def wouldnt be this.

To be fair, in your last paragraph there, you actually give your own opinion, which is reasonably parallel to Jarmo's opinion. If you were to purely opinionate, you wouldn't be arguing.

I like Guns' lateness. I am not keen on early finishes. That is my opinion.

and you can't see how the boo birds piss the fans off?

would be nice if you could kindly take your opinion on this board to somewhere else. thanks.



nobody?

I prefer to go to a restraint that serves heavenly meals to the fast foods, even if it takes time. guess other fans too.

I live in the 4th or 5th largest metropolitan area in the US, with over 5 million people. So it is not some small town with just a few music fans. The place where I saw AC/DC last week sells out for  the "big name" bands when they come through town: Aerosmith, ZZ Top, Eagles, Tom Petty, even Fleetwood Mac--they all sell out. In 2002, when GNR was supposed  to come (tour was canceled before they got here, and we got skipped in 2006 and 2007), that same arena was only half sold. Is it due to the lateness of the show or something else? Who knows, but it is significant that of all the big bands of that generation,  only GNR did not sell out.

oh yeah, i'm sure you have some special gift for reading the band's mind.  how arrogant you sound suggesting that the band wants something different than axl.  they are a band, afterall.  if they really thought it would be better to go on early and give the fans a half-assed show and a less-than-stellar performance, then they'd tell axl that and put it to a vote or something.  obviously, the band is plenty satisfied with putting on great shows and continuing the gnr tradition.  if it aint' broke, don't fix it.

I dont have a problem with opinions. Of course we all are going to have different opinions and ideas. And thats a good thing. Where I differ(prob not with you) is that I dont think someone isnt a fan because they dont have the same opinions of GNR that I might have.

agreed

The boo birds at a show piss me off too! So we share the same opinion..can I stay now :love:


No special gift just some common sense. The old band hated going on late. That doesnt mean the new lineup hates it but Im sure if they had to choose they would prob go on a lil earlier. The person that decides what is best for the band and what they do is Axl not the band for the most part.

my experience on the internet has been, that most people think that everyone should or does think how they do.


I have my opinion but I can sit here and I can take in someone elses opinion and even though I may not agree, I can absolutely see where they are coming from.


Start times for myself really don't matter. Like I said, I know the deal and therefore would only go to a GNR concert in the summer or on a weekend.

I am not naive to sit here and say/think that every person in the universe knows this.  We have this mentality that because we know, everybody knows and that isn't the case.

most people frown upon tardiness. that is just how we are conditioned as a society. Me? I am always late, so once again, at a GNR show, I wouldn't boo or get pissed but I'm not gonna talk shit about somebody or hate on someone else who does get pissed cause I can totally see their point of view on this.



u have to think bigger than yourself and what in the end would be best for the band.  Does it make people as fans happy to see GNR go from the biggest band of its era to a few steps above the Rocklahoma acts?

I want more for GNR and I want what they should be but yes yes, I know  it isn't about what I want, so i'll sit back and be silent and will continue to watch one of the biggest bands ever continue to go down and down in popularity.

You wouldn't know class if it bit you in your ass.  :hihi:

If that's my mentality, it's the same many others have.

You see, it's about getting a message through.

You can try to be nice, but then after a few years you realize being nice isn't getting the message across, so you might have to try something else.





It's not really the same because we're not talking about similar things.

How can I explain to you that waiting for a TV program or movie is different than waiting for a person or persons to do something?

Sure, if the band were a bunch of robots with no feelings, you'd have a better analogy.




You tell me, seems like you have all the answers.

I know several reasons why all shows don't sell out.



No, the point was, are you upset because it didn't finish on time.



That's just wrong.

I bet at every show you can find people who don't mind at all.

As usual, they're just not as vocal as those who do mind wasting their "precious*" time.


Did you forget that on the last tour they had opening acts?




I bet!






Promotion, promotion, promotion.





Yeah, I'm not thinking about what's best/easiest for me.

Which is the opposite of what most of these upset people do.



Guns N' Roses is probably the last great real rock n' roll band and I wouldn't want them to change that just to cater to peoples' family lives and work schedules.

If GN'R wants to do a tour of playing afternoon matinee shows, so everybody in the audience can nap before dinner, great.

But until then, they can do what they feel like and it's fine with me.




Good, you don't have a problem with different opinions. How come you can't understand that we might have different definitions of what a fan is?



This is what I meant.

First you don't have a problem with different opinions and then get "upset" because somebody (me) has a different opinion.

 ???


I happen to think that this site isn't for those fans who think it's their obligation to bash the band and its members. I also don't think I have to welcome them with open arms.

So I'm not allowed to think that?

But I thought you didn't have a problem with it!





/jarmo

yeah Jarmo but u think your definition is the Be all End All of definitions.


I read something Bruce Springsteen said yesterday.

he gave Wal Mart a greatest hits exclusive CD and apparently a bunch of his fan's got pretty pissed due to Wal Mart's worker policy.


http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/12176684


 Some fans were critical because Springsteen has been a longtime supporter of worker's rights, and Wal-Mart has faced criticism for its labor practices. Springsteen's team didn't vet the issue as closely as it should have, and that he "dropped the ball on it," he told the Times for a story to be published in Sunday editions and previewed on its Web site.

Springsteen went on to say: "It was a mistake. Our batting average is usually very good, but we missed that one. Fans will call you on that stuff, as it should be."


so see, on one hand ,artists appreciate their fans feedback, but on here, any kind of criticism is met with "U aren't a fan" and that is BS.

I for one, would never criticize this band if I wasn't a fan. I just have a deep connection to GNR and hate seeing the legacy ruined and the ball dropped on CD.



I think u put too much emphasis on starting late. As if GNR would be any less rock at 9pm as compared to 11:30pm.

good one : ok:

Again, I dont have a problem with anyones opinion. I agree that bashing is pointless and doesnt have to exist here. But the problem is you think constructive criticism is bashing. That is where things go haywire around here. You have too broad of an interpretation on what bashing is.

We would all agree that Mygnr is run a lot differently than this site. I have said for years and still maintain that this is still the top message board.
But how come Eric Romano gets a Thank You from Axl when his forum is completely different then this site? And this is where your lack of class pops up... in an ugly way...

How come Eric Romano can thank the people and members of his site/forum for getting it to where it is(an Axl thank you)? Especially when most people dont know much about him.

And here we have you, who is widely known amongst the GNr internet community, cant thank your mods and members of the forum who has helped made your site forum what it is today(an axl thank you, trips to LA, tour hopping,etc). Why is that? (and if you have please show me the thread).

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=131077&hl= (http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=131077&hl=)

 How come Eric Romano can take a minute of his time to reply to my pm of congratulations for making the booklet? Especially when I have no communication with the guy and dont think too highly of his forum. Nor am I even a regular there. Yet when I send you a pm and offer to put our differences aside for a moment and congratulate you on making the book and what you have achieved with the site I still havnt recieved a response. That is why you lack class. When your head comes out of the clouds then maybe you will have a better perspective and some class. Who knows

The relevance of my 'ratings' comment is because Bridge suggested that when someone buys a ticket that entitles them to tell the band what their job description entails (i.e., be at the venue at such-n-such time;  hit the stage at such-n-such time; play 'these' songs instead of 'those' songs; etc.)

So when you/they were considering buying tickets to a GNR show, youze were totally unaware of what time GNR generally hits the stage??  :confused:

please just ban younggunner.  he's ruining this site and this band for the real fans.

what rules have I broken?

Umm, no.

Are you serious? Really?

Some of you have a very weird picture in your heads about what I am.

The truth is, I don't really give a fuck what you think about anything. Blunt but true.

But I have the right to decide what kind of people I prefer in my own house.

If I decided I wouldn't want anybody below the age of 30 to post here, I could decide that.

It's kinda up to me....



If you believe in the band and support them, chances are you'll feel welcome here. Even if you only own one album.

Now, if Mr Superfan has bought all the albums and spent all his money on tickets, t-shirts etc. and still feels like putting down the band day after day, chances are he'll get called out on it.



What a nice generalization.

Look up the difference between constructive criticism and pointless whining.


The Springsteen/Walmart thing is a bit different.

Are his fans whining about his setlists all day long and how he should act?


As far as I can remember, GN'R fans who were discussing the exclusivity deal made it known how much they disliked Walmart.





Ask all the people other who sent me Personal Messages or e-mails.

So I didn't reply to your message. Maybe it's got more to do with how you are and less about how I am.



FYI: I decided not to make a big deal out of it. Even if it means a lot to me personally.

It's just not my style. Sorry.





/jarmo

You made it personal by stating "It's my site, and I determine who it's aimed at."  And while I acknowledge that it is indeed your site, the name GUNS N ROSES decides who comes and visits it.  That's it.  And that's the truth.




Uh, yes actually.


Right.  Because you see, what you have here is a failure to understand what I'm saying.  Just because someone disagrees with you, you construe that as "disturbing operations".  Using your bar analogy, if a guy walks in and wants to drink the beer that happens to not be the most popular beer, you're implying that he should be kicked out.  Same with this site.  Anybody who doesn't share the most popular opinions (or yours), you're insinuating they are troublemakers who should be evicted from the premises.  It's ridiculous.

 



How ironic.

It's only ridiculous to those who are the so called troublemakers.  : ok:

Just like idiots who like to start bar fights wouldn't agree with being stopped at the door every night.



/jarmo
 

I know of one other person who didnt recieve a response from you and who is probably much less hated than me.

And its Eric Romanos style? Give me a break. Fine you want to hold your little anger issues you have against me and not reply because your an internet tough guy, thats cool/fine.
But to not write a quick simple message to the people of this site then well thats just not classy. Beta, Fernando, Vanessa, and the people you bring on tour with you dont count. Im talking about thanking the thousands of memebers you have here and the millions of hits that you have had over the years. Those are the people who deserve the thank you. You can say its not your style all you want. It has nothing to do with style. Again, it comes back to being about you. Its not your style. Give me a break.

That's another important point to make.  In many cities, the metros and subways shut down after a certain time.  Axl going on late could very well leave many fans stranded if he doesn't go on at a reasonable time.

Of course, I'm sure there will be some idiots who say "well, don't take the metro then!"  In some cities (Washington D.C. is a good example), it's virtually impossible to drive all the way to the venue.  The Verizon center (where Axl was supposed to play in 2002 before the tour got cancelled) only has a few hundred parking spaces in its garage.  And many parking garages are closed after a certain hour, and some aren't open at all on weekends.  Add to that the horrendous D.C., area traffic conditions, and most people are FORCED to take the metro in.

Bottom line: when so many people are going to great lengths and driving great distances to attend the show to support YOU, you DO indeed owe it to them to go onstage at a reasonable time, rather than jeopardizing their ability to get home at a reasonable hour.  Why?  Because as I said, they're paying for the tickets, which pay your salary!



Learn how to read.  The obvious context of my post (which you quoted but still couldn't comprehend) criticized the time only.  I never once mentioned or implied anything about setlists or how the band performed once they took the stage.

Ok, tell that other person to try again.

At the time of the album's release, I was out traveling.




I didn't say so. I said it's not my style to "brag".

Anything you said after that is your own personal opinion and not based on anything I said. So no need for me to "defend" myself.

 :)


/jarmo

quote from axl from 1992...

"I don't want to make people sit around and wait - it drives me nuts. That hour-and-a-half or two-hour time period that I'm late going onstage is living hell, because I'm wishing there was any way on earth I could get out of where I am and knowing I'm not going to be able to make it."

so he acknowledges that it's not normal and a pain in the ass. he even feels bad about it.

BUT, if you are a gnr fan that has ever complained about it, you shouldn't go to thier shows (according to the first post of this ridiculous thread).

does that actually make sense to anyone?

So?

Who said you had to brag? Where in the link below is there an ounce of someone bragging?

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=131077&hl= (http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=131077&hl=)

so why bands like Kiss are pretty rsonable on time, and they have to put on make up and costumes  :hihi:

You'd be eliminating almost all the fans of the current lineup if you did that.   :hihi:

The CONTEXT of your post is that FANS can criticize/evaluate/rate how Axl does his "job" because THEY decided to buy a ticket to HIS show.   ::)

But around here, you can't seem to differentiate between those who start barfights and those who just disagree about what the popular beer is.


 
Yeah, and you conveniently ignored everything else that I said in that post which was made it crystal clear that I was referring to time.  Once again, twisting my words around.

Here, let me refresh your memory....


And yes, when people PAY to see Axl, they DO indeed have the right to criticize anything they want.  To suggest otherwise is absurd and fanatical.  Now grow up and learn to read.

So I wasn't at home and might have had less time to do stuff like reply to messages.






I said it didn't feel right to me to start patting my own back. Which is what it kinda reminds me of if I had started talking about it.

I didn't say he or anybody else is doing it. Before you claim I did.


I get attacked for being the way I am, the way I run my site, the way I apparently think, the way I don't thank people enough.

 :)



/jarmo

You still travelling the world? Im sure a lot of people were just as busy as you and still dropped you a message. Im sure a lot of people just as busy as you stopped by the site and created an account.

A simple message would have done the job. Instead you decide to keep your head in the clouds.

where is the violin icon when you need it

 :)

So it's absurd and fanatical to be aware of and expect what time GNR generally hits the stage ..... but it's not stupid to criticize them for coming on-stage at the time when they usually always do because you paid for the ticket.  :confused:

Okay.  I got it.  : ok:   I'm a big grown-up girl now.  ;D

I agree that it should be expected but just because you're aware of it doesn't mean you can't criticize.  That seems to be the buzzline around here.  Axl's flaws are excusable and justifiable just because we're aware of them.


Glad to hear it.

I also agree that a person's flaws are NOT excusable or justifiable just because we're aware of them.

But in this particular case, a lot of the things that most people criticize as "flaws" are, IMO, the things that personify the "character" that he is presenting to the public.

And to many of us, it is that "flawed personification" combined with his and the band's talents that has endeared us to the point of mesmerized-fanaticism.

It's sorta like the same reason some people are attracted to a tv character like Dexter.  It's not that you're necessarily a fan of serial killers but it's the way Michael C. Hall uses his talents to portray that "flawed" character that keeps people coming back week after week to see who, how and why he's gonna murder someone.   

I see good points on both sides of this.

Jarmo and I don't really see eye to eye on things anymore BUT in his defense, he really hasn't banned any of the long time vets who don't share his opinion. the fact I am still here is a testament to that.

I just wonder what Axl is talking about when he says he wishes he could go out earlier.  so he is actually AT the arena way before show time, he just has stage fright or something?

Let's just get this straight.

Just because I didn't respond to a guy who's been trying to "move on" numerous times doesn't mean I don't reply to any messages/e-mails.

I bet the other guy who's message I didn't reply to is your "non-friend".


Just because I don't like you, doesn't mean that the same goes for every other poster here.  :D



The thing people need to realize about you is that I gave you plenty of opportunities, but you come to a point when you realize that it's a waste of time.

So you wanted to, once again, move on when you saw my name in the album booklet. Good for you.

I just had enough of your games a long time ago.




Yeah, you would know because I don't answer to your messages or want anything to do with you.

That must make you an expert.

 :hihi:




Just for the record, anybody who thinks that I don't appreciate the moderators, the people who visit the site or the real fans who post/read this board, is truly a moron.

Sorry, but even hinting that I think the opposite is stupid.


I think the problem is people who start taking themselves too seriously.

One person didn't make the board what it is. It's a combination of things. It's the rules, the way it's ran and the posters.

If a poster leaves, it doesn't necessarily mean the board will change. But if we change the rules or how we run the board, it will change.


Now, some of you might say that I think I'm above everybody else blah blah blah. Well, the truth is, I started it.

You can't really change that fact. I don't really mention it daily, but that's how it is.

Does it make me special? In some ways. I mean, this site only had one person who started it. So I guess that could be considered special.....

Does it make me better than all the other posters, no.




I'm not an expert, but I can imagine it being a lot of things.

You have to be ready.

It's like going into a fight with the attitude that you're gonna win.... You're mentally ready to kick some fucking ass. And the show is your release.

Instead of going into it with the attitude that you'll get your ass kicked.




People need to realize that this doesn't necessarily apply to all live performing musicians.

Just because some band can go on at 9PM sharp and perform a stellar set doesn't mean that it works for everybody else.

We're talking about human beings, not machines.

Maybe some think it's nice to be able to step on stage on time night after night to get the "job" done as soon as possible.


It's just ironic reading so many saying things like they understand that we're different and that we have different opinions. But they don't seem to understand that Axl is different and that he should change.




/jarmo

That part is cool Jarmo, just seems, maybe I am misinterpreting, but its like you think a band isn't "True Rock" if they go out on time.

I think axl is the exception and not the rule. If he has things he has to overcome to perform, i feel bad, cause in the fans eyes, he is a legend and can do absolutely no wrong on stage.

No, for me true rock n' roll is doing what you think is right instead of doing what others think you should be doing. To not conform to the "rule book" just because everybody says you have to.

It's about integrity. It's about doing things from your heart instead of being motivated by the wallet.


I don't know why that is so hard for some to understand.




/jarmo

It isn't hard to understand, like I said, that is fine, but at what price? I think u can keep your integrity and still be a little more accessible to the fan base.

I completely agree with this. I love Axl, hell I worship the dude, but he needs to speak out a bit more

It depends.

Accessible? To do things for the sake of doing things or to do them because you want to?


Every time Axl has said something, he's gotten thanked at first and then attacked because something didn't go as he had hoped.



When you start doing things just because you have to, that's often when things become less fun and more like a job.





And also, GN'R has always done things their way.




/jarmo

Thats true, but people would be a hell of a lot more grateful if he did a bit more publicity. I don't mean pics of him everywhere. Just an interview now and then maybe a tv  appearance or two.

I understand that as fans we'd love to see the band everywhere.

But you have to see the other side of the coin. I believe that if they don't think right now is the time for photos, interviews, videos etc., then they have a pretty good reason for it.

I respect that.


They put out the album when they thought it was time. And it was definitely worth it.



/jarmo

I can speak for a lot of the GNR community when I think what frustrates us the most is, the fact we thought CD would be the start of great things.

So far, it has come and gone and we are in the exact same spot we were in 10 years ago with no activity whatsoever.

It is frustrating for me to see one of my fave artists seemingly piss away his entire career. That does make me selfish because it is HIS life and HIS career, I just think he could be ruling the world and making a difference, instead of just standing on the sidelines.

Hopefully I am gonna be wrong on this but does Axl even really want to do this anymore?

You have the album, listen to it.  :D

Nobody has said anything about there not going to be any kind of promotion.


As I've said over and over again, the constant whining about the supposed silence is not helping anybody. Except maybe yourselves.

For some weird reason, this is considered "constructive criticism" by some.

"They're not talking to us". What is so constructive about that?


Besides, it was only about two months when the album was released.

Axl was on these boards before the holidays.

I don't know how those two alone could be compared to 1999.

People forget very fast.


It's a constant "I want....".

At what point are people gonna stop for a minute to think about what they have and be grateful, instead of constantly thinking about what they want next?





/jarmo

The message board thing was awesome but Jarmo, the time they start doing something, isn't it going to be too late to save this album?

Also, I think it really sucks, that the band members are out with so many different bands, Axl couldn't do anything right now if he wanted to.


I still will never accept band members being out doing that shit when your main band has a brand new CD out.

No.

Why?

A lot of US music buyers who don't visit Best Buy haven't even seen the physical CD yet.



How come?

Do you think they're scheduling solo appearances knowing that it would collide with GN'R?

I don't.

For example Dizzy has always been out playing with his other bands but that hasn't stopped GN'R from touring in 2006 or 2007.




/jarmo

doing small shows here and there, or a small tour as a session guitarist i don't think would impact GnR.

i think joining another big band who were planning a world tour, just a few months before CD came out IS doing something knowing it will collide with GnR.

If you're talking about Robin, only he knows his future plans. He hasn't been interested in sharing those plans with us as of now, so we don't know.




/jarmo

man, jarmo... you deserve a gold medal for being the ultimate gnr fan.  everyone's interogatting you left and right.  you show great PATIENCE in dealing with all the absurd questioning.

That isn't a good analogy because you aren't directly affected by that character's "flaws".  Axl's behavior on the other hand, does directly affect the people who attend his shows.  As we've already discussed, Axl's tardiness results in ticket-buying fans standing around waiting forever, getting home inordinately late, and possibly missing the bus, metro, or subway that may only run up to a certain hour.  As I said, when you have that many fans who are buying tickets which pay your salary, and going to extraordinary lengths travel-wise to see the show, I don't think it's too much to ask to go on at a reasonable hour.

As far as the band "guaranteeing" an exact time for which they go on -- well, maybe they don't.  But it's one of those things where unwritten ethics apply.  Any reasonable person with even average sensibility is going to find it egregious if they have to wait two hours between the opening act and the headliner, even if the time wasn't guaranteed.

Essentially, this issue breaks down into two viewpoints....

1. Axl shouldn't be late all the damn time.
2. Fans attending concerts should know that Axl is late all the damn time and expect it.

Both viewpoints are valid.  I just take exception with the mentality around here that only viewpoint #2 is legitimate, which is the attitude presented every time someone chastises someone else for chastising Axl about the time.



I agree with this.  And I don't think Axl should necessarily do more interviews or anything like that.  I don't give a damn about those things because they don't matter in the big picture.  But when it comes to going onstage, as far as I'm concerned, there is a price to be paid for that many people loving your work enough to buy a ticket and show up.  Most people take off an entire day and spend a lot of money (notwithstanding the ticket cost) just to travel and show up at the venue.  That's tougher to do in the U.S. these days because the huge recession has affected our pocketbooks so much.  So the least Axl could do to acknowledge that is take the stage at a reasonable hour.  I don't see that as a huge compromise on his part.

There you go again.

Did you even try to consider that what works for you might not work for everybody else?

You don't see the "huge compromise"? Maybe that's because you're not Axl? Maybe he does!

You seem to think that he does it on purpose.


Maybe going on stage is a bit different than you going to school/work. Maybe it requires more energy to stand in front of thousands of people and connect with the audience than to sit in a classroom listening to a teacher or deliver newspapers?




Maybe he could go on at 8PM and act like he's having fun so you can be home before 11PM.

But who knows, maybe you'd think the show sucked and felt like Axl was just up there doing a job....

Nah, that's impossible.

You'd just be delighted to get what you ordered.






/jarmo

Again, my main point isnt just about me. Like I said, if you hate me that much over God knows what thats fine. My feelings arent hurt nor do I feel left out of your little fantasy world.

I just think something like what Eric did would have been a nice touch to the community. BUt if your circle of friends is the only thing that matters thats fine too.



actually its not


your such a badass ....cool duudeeeeeee  :love:



Games?? Just because I have different ideas of what a fan is or thoughts on GNR than you doesnt mean Im playing games.




stop acting like youve never responded to my pms. Your lil power trip started AFTER I sent you a congratulations pm. not before. Before that you would always respond to my pms.

;D : ok:

there ya go...you did it!...was that so hard afterall?




Noone expects you to mention it daily. Like I have said many times...you deserve everything that comes your way

And there YOU go again.  What I said was that when Axl is paid substantial amounts of money by the audience, it shouldn't be a huge compromise to deliver for these people.  When you're being paid to work for people, as Axl is, you work for those people!  It becomes more than being just about YOU.


So what, you think he does it by accident?



I'm sure it does, but that doesn't change the fact that the fans are paying him to do it.  Besides, it's not like he doesn't have time to warm up for the show.  He's there hours in advance.

Seriously, we're talking about late starting times again?  How many GNR shows do you think you'll attend if/when they tour?  ONE, if you're lucky, maybe two.  Is it gonna kill you to stay out late ONE night?  Really, live a little.  Just plan accordingly.  It's well publicized.  You know you're in for a late night, so deal with it.  If I have tickets for Monday Night Football but have to work the next day I don't complain to the NFL, I suck it up.

Im only talking about late starting times and how it negatively effects the band's success.


I could care less what time the show starts but it is really hurting their tour grosses.

I honestly only skimmed over the past couple posts and just saw the mention of late starts.  Maybe this has been covered but how do late starting times negatively effect their success?  Did it effect them negatively in their heyday?

It's funny how you don't care and it's not the point, yet you had to mention it. It's almost like it did matter.....

My "fantasy world" is the same world you begged to be part of.




Just saying.





Yes your games.

Remember how badly you wanted to talk about GN'R with me outside this board?

You're the kind of person who acts one way in posts and the opposite in PMs.

All excuses in PMs and this tough guy who doesn't care in posts....







Oh, I thought it started years ago.

But I thought you didn't care and it wasn't about you. Now it's about you again.

Make up your mind!


You come across as somebody who's feelings got hurt because I didn't reply to a PM while I was away from home having a good time.

Sorry!

If I had know this had such a tremendous effect on you, I would've made sure I responded to you first before everybody else who sent me messages at the time (not including certain people who you might know).




Thanks.



So you are feeling owed....

Axl doesn't deliver?

Please clarify.



Maybe he does it because he has to get ready for the show?




Because you know what exactly it takes to be Axl Rose and get on that stage. Right.

As I've said, just because it works for the Jons of the world, doesn't mean it works for everybody else.

If you could just understand that little fact....




Hey, somebody else agrees with me!

Don't you dare tell these people to live a little.  :hihi:





/jarmo

Not in terms of ticket sales, but this isn't their heydey.  This is a new band trying to establish themselves as Guns N Roses -- actually establish themselves period.  This isn't 1991 when the band had more than one original member and were riding a huge wave of success.

And actually, it did affect them negatively in other ways.  Axl's lateness was costing the band hundreds of thousands of dollars in curfew violation fees.  In an interesting side note, at the end of Izzy's tenure in the band, he stormed over to Axl's house one night and told him that if he insisted on going onstage late, the fees should be charged to him and not the band (source: Spin magazine, July 1999).

Well, on the bright side, I don't think the "new" band goes on quite as late as the "old" band used to.  The 2 shows I've gone to have ended at a reasonable hour at least.

Yeah, if I purchase a ticket for the SHOW, yeah, I am owed a show, and out of courtesy for his ticket-buying fans, Axl should deliver one in a reasonable amount of time!



If he's aware that it takes him an inordinate amount of time to prepare for the show, why not start the preparation regime a little earlier?



No, but apparently you do.


Yeah, well let me throw this out there, maybe it "works" for Axl to be late because he's never truly been held accountable for it.  He's been allowed to do as he pleases for so long, perhaps he's convinced he simply CAN'T go on on time...

So it's not about what he delivers, it's about when.

Got it.




Maybe it's not something that works after a clock?

Like some mornings you're ready to start doing stuff straight when you wake up and other mornings you don't get anything done until midday!






Didn't you just prove how he had to pay?







It's the way he is. Why not just accept it?





/jarmo

I don't think I ever suggested otherwise.  All of my posts here have pretty much been in regards to the time.




Yeah, but when you have to be at work by eight, you're at work by eight!  That's the problem here, Axl is treating this like it's a day at the park where he doesn't have anyone depending on him.




Yeah, but he had plenty of funds to cover the fees.  Maybe if the venues stringently enforced the curfews to the point where they flat out wouldn't allow the band to play at all if they took the stage late.  Or if they did the same thing that Vancouver did in 2002 -- pulled the plug on the show when it was obvious Axl wouldn't be there to take the stage at a reasonable hour.  If there were more rigid penalties like that, Axl might think twice about his "internal clock".



That goes back to what I said earlier.  We're supposed to accept it.  Tolerate it.  Condone it.

Good to know.

In other words, your ultimate GN'R show would start at 8PM and end around 10PM.

The show itself doesn't matter. Who cares if it included a 20 minute drum solo with Axl reciting lyrics while sitting down.

At least it's on time!

I'd rather have a kick ass full energy show that starts "late" myself.  :hihi:





But it's not your typical job is it? Sure, some artists might treat it like one.

We keep going in circles because you keep saying it's a job while your #1 priority with a GN'R show is the time it ends.


To me it sounds like you're not after anything real or organic. Anything that doesn't follow your plan. Maybe watching the DVD in your own home is a better alternative?





I'm sure GN'R tries to avoid those venues....

"And in regard to the size venues I'm on record as preferring what ever venues allow for our schedule "

- Axl




Sucks for the fans in Vancouver.






And you can't accept that people are different with different opinions?

I thought I was that person.  ::)



As far as being late, I've been that way my whole life.

- Axl






/jarmo

:rofl: WOW. You are insane. That might not even be the word. Begged to be a part of? lollllllll and what world did I beg to be a part of?????????????? Please tell us of this world

We would talk on aim about GNR. Big deal? You decided to stop talking when I began to question the way GNR did things.

As for these pms you mention...I argue the same way in those as I do here on the forum. So stop trying to make it seem like Im a phony. Nice try though.


Thanks for that laugh though. I enjoyed it.

Jarmo can I please be a part of your world? :rofl:

I used to get a kick reading posts made by people who want to run other peoples' lives.

It's gotten totally pathetic now.

Freaks.

Axl made it on time and did fantastic shows when they were a supporting act

He made it on time and did a great job at the Freddie tribute (he wouldnt have disrespected that audience that day)
The whole things seems like a needy thing....
Im a massive fan of GNR's music, but the band and Axl, in particular are a classic case of sabotaging yourself....in oh so many uneccessary ways

As Ive said It screws over his crew, the younger fans who are forced to quit the show early/ or pay for a taxi, the band financially, and the older fans who have to work

Harden up get on there....No other band member would be allowed to delay a show......imagine if Axl was ready to go on and Frank goes....'no dude ...im not ready to deliver just yet'

If Axl said 'i have anxiety issues im really sorry i just cant go on until im ok' id be fine with that.....but the excuses like....i have to bandage my ankles (yeh??? do it earlier......and 'ive always been a  night person etc are pathetic)

Axl said in 91 that those complaining about getting up early wouldnd complain if they were getting laid.....well I cant see Axl refusing getting laid before midnight ' because im a night person'.

no offense to frank intended, but if he was required to bring as much to the show as axl, then maybe things would be different.  comparing what the drummer does to what the frontman does is absurd, and frankly borders on insulting axl's talent.

As I said he brought the same or arguably a much higher level of intensity/emotion in the early days at a normal time.

As I said If he said ' look ive got a few issues and im sorry i really cant because ABCD and E' fair enough......but the excuses given so far make zero sense and come across as selfish and nonsensical.

Somebody who doesn't care doesn't get upset if he doesn't get a reply to one PM.

Somebody who doesn't care doesn't ask why we can't talk about GN'R on some messenger multiple times.

I decided to stop talking to you once I realized how boring you are to talk to. Always the same.


Even though you promised me multiple times that you'd stop these stupid arguments, look at what you're doing again.

Your promises aren't worth a lot it seems. I guess that's classy.



You're desperately trying to make fun of me for using your own quote. You're the one who made up my fantasy world to begin with.

If somebody should explain what that world is, it's you!


Since you're so classy, I don't understand why you couldn't take this personal matter, which it clearly is, up in a personal message?




Everybody can see how you just broke another rule. I guess in my "fantasy world" insults coming from you are jokes and should be allowed.

It's funny, because I remember you promising to behave and that if you broke another rule, you'd have no problems with getting kicked out (again).

So, what's the deal? Another one of your worthless promises?





/jarmo

please just ban him already.  what's the point in this?  it's ruining everything for the real fans.

Like the guy who got punched in the face by a some guy's girlfriend at Greensboro, NC show or the junkie who was shooting up heroin in the middle of the crowd while we were waiting for GN'R to come on...  Wait a minute that was kind of entertaining! 

what rule have I broken. I just pointed out that it would have been a nice touch if you would have done something like what Eric did. If you cant handle that then I dont know what to tell you. You didnt respond to my positive pm I sent you so why should I pm you something negative? You would only say that I just pm you negative stuff. Yet when I try to put  aside the "negativity" for a moment and genuinely congratulate you you decide to ignore it. which is totally fine. Your trying to have it both ways...as usual.

its ok for you to make inuendos and comments but if I do it its not cool. nice touch



coming from someone who makes insane comments and threads : ok:


its funny how "the real fans" can make threads like this one and exclude people from being gnr fans yet when these "real fans" are called out on their own flaws its not cool and people want you banned. go figure

Calling somebody insane when you're not a doctor, or qualified to make that kind of diagnosis, is in many circles considered an insult.





Which I recall responding to you without insulting you or anybody else.

But my answer wasn't good enough for a person who claims to understand that we all have different opinions.




Once again, I gave you a reason.




Yes, I didn't reply to your PM.

It happens that I forget to respond to messages/e-mails.

I admit it!


Did you ever think that out of all the PMs you sent me, that a majority was the same old. So when I was on holidays I saw your name and figured it would be the same old again and didn't pay enough attention to it? Maybe I had a bunch of other messages from people who hadn't kept nagging about the same shit month after month that I responded to?


You didn't answer my question regarding your "promises" to stop arguing. I guess you don't need to.




/jarmo

look man, i don't know how to make this any simpler for you... if you can't say something nice THEN DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!  i don't care if you get mad that axl makes his setlist without consulting you.  i'm really sorry that axl doesn't let you manage his personal planner and schedule when he'll be ready to give his best performance.  so just deal with it!  what good does coming here and complaining do?  NOTHING!  do you think axl will read this and say, "Oh okay, whatever... that random guy on the internet is right, i'll just change whatever he wants me to change about myself."

so what's the point to all your complaining?  you're not changing anything.  you're just annoying everyone who wants to come here and support their favorite band and talk about their favorite music.  you're just bringing THE REAL FANS down and killing the mood with negativity.  

and jarmo... maybe you could just send this guy a freakin' pm so he'll lay off already.  you've always responded to my pm's, so i know you're a good guy and i know you take the time out to communicate with people.  

"Real fans"

 :hihi:

fan is short for fanatic u know.

I think we are all pretty damn fanatical one way or the other.

whos getting mad? Do I not go to the shows? Do I not wait hrs in line so I can get a good spot? Just because people comment on certain aspects of gnr doesnt mean we are complaining or arent fans. Its a god dam message board. Just talking. Why are you so sensitive? Its not like anyone is saying Axl sucks or gnr blows. We are just commenting on the ins and outs of gnr mostly based on how its presented to the public. Some of its good, some of its bad. Thats reality not fantasy. Axl makes mistakes. Everyone does. Hes fukin human. That doesnt mean he isnt the greatest frontman ever etc. He is. But that doesnt mean we have to sit here and think that the way he handles things is always right. We are in another silent stage of gnr. What do you expect people do during the wait? Capisce?

what is a "real fan"? please tell me so I can begin training.

okay, great.  you've now officially said your peace... you think axl should play your setlists.  you think axl should take the stage when you want.  you think axl should do eveyrthing you want.  your opinion has been stated and recorded for all time.

so now hopefully you won't need to keep saying it over and over and over again.  we get it.  we understand how you feel.  maybe one day axl will read your comments and decide to do as you say.  until then, can we agree that you've shared your feelings and don't need to keep saying the same stuff again and again? 

now how about saying something positive? 

Totally.

'the band should do this and shouldn't do that"

"A Real Fan should do this and shouldn't do that"

"A board admin should be blah"

Shove it.

Some suggestions to the contrary, there is no relationship between starting late and quality of the show or quality of the experience.

hm.. on one hand we have what axl says, and on the other hand we have what you, some random guy on the internet thinks.  since the issue is about when axl thinks he performs best, i think i'll listen to axl.  if the issue was how to use an internet forum, i'd trust you.

I'm stealing this line from you.

hm.. on one hand we have what axl says, and on the other hand we have what you, some random guy on the internet thinks.  since the issue is about when axl thinks he performs best, i think i'll listen to axl.  if the issue was how to use an internet forum, i'd trust you.
[/quote]


 
I Guess that's why all the shows in the AFD era that were on time and the Freddie Tribute were so terrible then :) I cant see Axl leaving a hot girl lying in bed for 2 hrs till he feels he's at peak readiness.
I guess the late starts that resulted in cancelled shows and riots were great?? I guess aggravating the audience the support acts the stage crew the promoters etc makes for a good show??  The kids who had to leave the gig halfway through to get home???

This really is dead horse territory though. If you go to a GNR show unfortunately thats par the course, I do however believe that the casual fan has a legitimate gripe, and the notion that anyone who's life gets shafted by late starts shouldnt attend is just deluded snobbery.

Bingo. Late starts can be a real pain in the arse if you have to travel for the gig.  I mind when I stayed for the encores at a Maiden show in Glasgow and missed the last train back to Edinburgh as a result, now that was my fault, I didn't have to stay for the encores (actually, Hallowed Be Thy Name was closer, so yes I did) - but I'd have been right pissed off if they were only halfway through the show at that point. 

Aslo, not everyone knows in advance about Axl's insistance in going on so late.  Most people will see the show advertised, buy a ticket and turn up - only a minority spend as much time as we do on message boards.

Am I the only one who actually love the fact that they show up (mostly) too late?

Despite my opinion of the late starts , I personally dont mind it as im a night person and enjoy the buildup ( my only gripe is that if im liquored up and have made the effort for a good position I cant have a toilet break hahah)

My argument is purely against the people that cant see the point from the general publics perspective....there are people on here unfortunately that verge on religious nutbag territory that view any alternate point of view or dissent as blasphemous

So .............. they take to the stage later than some people would like.

This has been ongoing for a very long time.  It has been a widely publicised fact.  The only people who may be unaware that they go on stage late may be people who are not fans at all.  Given the prices charged for tickets, would someone who is not a fan pay for a ticket to see them?  Not normally.  Therefore, as a fan, you are aware of the likelihood of a late night, in fact it's almost a given. 

If the day after the show was a working day, I would take a days holiday.

Personally, I am willing to wait until Axl is ready to go on.  I would rather wait hours and see a fantastic show than see a mediocre show that started earlier.

It is not the same as turning up for 'work' on time.  If Axl treated what he did the same way as the majority of people treat their own jobs, it would be a very poor band (and yes, I know that saying the 'majority' is a gross generalisation, but the number of people I've met who don't really care about what they do every day, and are just doing it to earn money far outweighs those who actually care about what they are doing).

It is well known that some people are 'night' people.  For example, I know many people who work nights, starting around 10pm, and prefer it that way because they are just 'night' people.  They believe that they accomplish their best work at night, and I see no reason to disagree with them.

Axl believes that he owes the fans the best show he can possibly give them.  If he performs best late at night, then that's what he'll do.

The only people who may be unaware that they go on stage late may be people who are not fans at all



Well speaking of snobbery and one person defining a 'real fan'.

They are attending the show, so id contend they are fans of the music and may not FOLLOW the quirks of the band....let me tell you that many people that attend dont know that its accepted that GNR come onstage late....and why should they??? stop blaming the fans , the beaten wife syndrome is weird.

Anyone attending is either a 'fan' or at least curious as to what GNR is about....as ive said many 15 year old kids attend, just like i would have at 15 if Led Zep showed up......If at 15 id been forced to wait 2 hrs inbetween sets ( and Ive yet to hear a coherent reason why???)  and forced to ditch the gig halfway through, like many of the kids at the gig I saw...then hell yeh Id be annoyed

it would be interesting to get some more inside information about Axl's late showing up. he "is actually doing something" [to prepare for the show with the classic line-up] were some of his recent forum words...so whats that? meditiation stuff? physical work-out? business?? relaxing? all combined?
i'd also like to know if the venue times do have an effect....like if he is told about "venue HAS and WILL be closed at 0 a.m." and if this has an significant effect on his showing-up? it kinda should have? but then he could also do it on purpose being late....and that would be unrock. it also could be a problem for the show length being shortened cause they did go on late but the city orders the venue to be silent ~after midnight and threaten with $$$$$$ overplaying-time-fees. apparently that was the case in Holland06.
Rock Am Ring06 the organizers had an opened slot for Axl and the band the whole friday night....which was kinda cool. knowing that he wanted to go on stage at 3am but then made it 1:45am, still people were waiting more than 2h and it was very very cold (also to be seen in the Proshot video WDR ROCKPALAST aired....check when the band is breathing, looks like some Godzillas on stage at points). the setlists were similar, i might never see the point of them being that stable and still think more different setlists wouldnt hurt the band but doing them more good (like the Bon Jovi setlists mentioned being more Rock N Roll). some of this information is coming from people backstage with VIP passes and yes, i was at both shows.

If the day after the show was a working day, I would take a days holiday.

Well Id probably tell my boss Ima  night person and just show up late sheesh......and despite what you think when your pulling in $100k a gig and people make travel plans to see you and young kids scrimp and save to see the band , no matter how 'rock n roll rebellious' going on late is....you better harden up and get on.

Noone has explained why the AFD gigs were so awesome when Axl used to get onstage on time???
I fully understand Axls not being ready and the internal clock thing i really do.....but sometimes you have to comromise and as the slogan say 'just do it'....the balance between art and integrity is blurry, but your being paid 100k or more by people who often are very poor.....so toughen the fuck up and get out there.

Axl: I've been an after midnight type since I was sneakin' out of my house in Jr. High. With old Guns we preferred 12am or so. When we moved to theaters etc obviously that changes but it's never changed inside me. Doesn't matter what I do so generally that's when I'm more myself. This isn't to mess with anyone that has an early schedule to keep it's just personal preference.

And in regard to the size venues I'm on record as preferring what ever venues allow for our schedule but management and promoters can do a lot in their own interests behind the scenes that can rarely be avoided and their greed or whatever leads to a lot of double talk and ugly behind nonsense that generally eventually ruins things for everyone. Translated once a tour is scheduled however it's like parting the seas to change.

As far as being late, I've been that way my whole life. It drove Izzy crazy but he would check himself and freely admit I was generally actually doing something that had to get done rather than watching basketball etc.

---

He prefers to go on when he thinks he can give the crowd the best show. So many of you are saying how you understand that people are different, but here you are not being able to accept it after all.



You think that sucks because it might push back your beauty sleep for one night of the year.....



/jarmo

thats vary true

nope. not very true.
like I said he has apologised for making the crowd wait.
made it pretty clear that he can't do anything for that. who cares whether it's perfectionism, autonomic imbalance or whatever.
A band can't go before everything is ready. Sometimes early sometimes late.

This is what I'm thinking as well. I mean, most people here have seen GN'R ONCE and in some cases, like D's, ZERO times. Yet they moan and complain about not getting home at a certain time.

Are you bitter about something D?  :hihi: Are you really that green younggunner? ???

This is so far beyond ridiculous it's actually pretty funny.

Cenario: So this one time in your life when you're lucky enough to get to see your favorite band perform live, you end up with a lousy bitter feeling afterwards because you're tired the next day and because you had to treat yourself with a cab ride instead of taking the much cheaper subway that stoped running at 1 am? Really?

Believe me, if you're a fan of GN'R, taking maybe a day off work, staying at a hotel for a night, having some beers with fellow fans and friends, maybe shoot up some heroin wile waiting for GN'R is really fuckin' worth it and you should defenetly start saving so that you'll be prepared for the next time the come to a place remotly close to you. : ok:

I hope to GOD Axl doesn't change his ways unless HE wants to.

thats not exactly what i ment i would love to go and sneak out to see GNR i dont have a problem with getting extra sleep i guess i dont know what i would do though with all the extra time when i would get there u know

depends on how much they drank :hihi: j/k

propably not

probably obsessive roaring drunks :no:

I don't know how people can pay a lot of money to go and heckle a band...  ???

It REALLY confuses me - it REALLY got to me at Download 06 when we had all of the 'We Want Slash' crap - wellll go and see VR then!  :P

In saying that B'ham 06 had a brilliant atmosphere.

Things that REALLY annoy me and shouldn't go are:

People who criticise Axl's voice/looks/hair/the new member's presence (you wanna see them or not?)
Hecklers
New material haters (there are tribute bands out there you know)
Bottle throwers
General Numpties  ::)  :-*

some people are just stupid that way :drool:

i remember going to donny in 06'.... right after the show i drove home which took the clock to 03.30 and i was up for work at 05.45
very tired, very drained, but its worth it  : ok:
if your a big fan then the small things and a little inconvenience should not matter. GnR gigs are now pretty few and far between in my opinion so i prefer Axl to give his best performance even if it means droopy eyes for a few days  :peace:

true that when GNR comes to the Chi i will fight my way to get as close as i can to the stage  :smoking:

What do you mean? Like what to do while waiting for the band to go on stage? How about waiting? Talking to fellow fans, drinking beer, listening to some good music, i don't know, just wait i guess, enjoy the moment sort of... :hihi:

I went to that gig... Was a good festival but apparently there was a riot in my camp after - I don't know cause I'd been drinking so I slept through it - the evidence was pretty conclusive next day though.  ::) I did nearly end up in a fight when some gits were singing a derogatory song about GN'R when they'd clearly never even been to see them....  >:( But GN'R were soooo good and converted some of my friends who didn't like them - I was so proud of them! I always am!!!  ;D It was a good night.  ;D Fun and made me sooo happy and proud. There was a Japanese guy and his girlfriend who started talking to me alter - he was GN'R fan who followed them 'round the world - he had his piccy taken with me in my GN'R flag. *Good Times*  ;D Nice hot summer - I'm not used to them here.  ;D

When to comes to Axl and Time, is he like a Gremlin, where 'midnight' shifts relative or stays static? Could 'midnight' be the equivalent of Midnight Hawaii Time, no matter where he actually is?

Yeah or like a vampire in a way.

Being suffering from polymorphic light eruption right now I say sun allergy can be a real nuisance.

Are you the girl I saw writhing around the floor uncontrollably at the show whenever the strobe lights would be used?

if she was all in black maybe you saw a friend of mine who is more photosensitive than me.
I'm ok with strobe as it doesn't give off much ultraviolet.