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Billboard singles review: Guns N' Roses

January 10, 2009 ET

Better

The title track from Guns N' Roses' "Chinese Democracy" hit radio a couple of months ago, but this new single is, well, much better?a hook-filled track that won't tarnish the band's reputation for radio hits. It's a bit overproduced: "Better" has drum loops, a midtempo guitar-driven verse, a chorus that sounds like it could have come from another song, some frenetic fretboard sweeps at the end of each chorus and an electronic sheen hanging over it all. But somehow Axl Rose's familiar vocals hold it together. His sense of melody makes "Better" memorable, rendering the song equal parts rock and pop, and GN'R's first bona-fide single for the YouTube/iPod generation. ?Bram Teitelman

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/reviews-singles/better-1003926110.story

Nice review.


I just don't get the "overproduced" thing.

It doesn't sound like shit. So shouldn't it be produced just enough?

Something that sounds like shit (mixed too loud etc.), shouldn't that be labeled overproduced? Meaning, they tried too hard to make it sound great and ended up with shit....  :P


It seems like anything that doesn't sound like nostalgia flavored garage rock is "overproduced".  ::)



/jarmo

thanx for sharing ... so the 10th might be the date of video also  : ok: ...

It's a bit overproduced? It's not ...




-velimir


edit:  :hihi: 6 seconds slower than jarmo ... not good final lap  :hihi:

I think it's mostly a positive review...I like this part.  :)

His sense of melody makes "Better" memorable, rendering the song equal parts rock and pop, and GN'R's first bona-fide single for the YouTube/iPod generation.

It Just sounds to me like the "in thing to say" about the album because they cant think of anything els bad to say about it.

I have loved BETTER since I first heard the leaks!

"Overproduced" is going to be thrown around by critics simply because of the unique amount of time it's taken to present a final product.

There are a ton of "little things" on this album, which is what I'm getting into now with the album.  A lot of times the vocals blend into and out of guitar tones that are the same notes and creates things sonically that I've not heard before on albums. 

The vocal tracks are what I keep focusing on early.  A lot of "doubling" effects that I've never heard come together so nicely.  Listen to Stevie Wonder or John Lennon and their doubling usually has a "warble" to it.  Axl's tracks are super tight (which to me is very cool and suggests a lot of attention to detail), but will draw these "overproduced" critiques.  I like when albums are slick at times and raw at times.  CD has all that in spades.
 

and have better appreciations of better than those overproduced critics do. :peace:

I think the album in it's all is overproduced in a sense that there is a lot of different sounds and structures to each song, every time i ear the album i find something new i didn't notice before. I just don't consider overproduced has to be a bad thing, just a way to categorized it in opposition to let's say stripped ou raw prodution. And yesssss Better is memorable  :)

SO TRUE! :beer: :smoking:

Not that I agree with him.....but I think the reviewer is referring to all the sounds on the track:

"It's a bit overproduced: "Better" has drum loops, a midtempo guitar-driven verse, a chorus that sounds like it could have come from another song, some frenetic fretboard sweeps at the end of each chorus and an electronic sheen hanging over it all. "

Not the actual sound, loudness, compression, etc. of the song.  When I think of overproduced, I think 80's synthesizers with fake ass sounding drums, not Better.

I know it's used as a way to describe something that's apparently too polished.


My point was just that it's getting thrown around to label anything that doesn't sound like it was made in a garage over the weekend and mixed and mastered by some engineer suffering from bad hearing.





/jarmo

If by "overproduced" they mean "worked on until they achieved the sound they wanted but I don't like it", then I guess there's a point to be made, but it should have been worded differently. However, if that's not what they meant and they simply think there's too much going on in the song, well, then per Billboard's definition, I guess that any NIN record would be deemed overproduced, too...

how hard is it for a critic to write a postiive review without shitting on something?

overproduced?  fucking bullshit.  this guy can suck it, nice comments notwithstanding.

So when did Better "Officially" become a single? Today?

Would Bram Teitelman call Pink Floyd overproduced?

I don't think so.

People use the O-word when they are trying too hard to sound important.

Yeah no kidding...  Here in Toronto I've heard it once and that was over a month ago.  Just goes to show that the order of singles do matter.  Had they released Better as the first single I think the song and the album would have done better.  

As for overproduced, I think it's being used in the context of what's necessary and what isn't.  In other words, in a contemporary context, what adds to or detracts from the song.  AFD could never be considered overproduced as it sounded raw, organic and unfettered.  It didn't need drum loops, synthesizers (with a few exceptions, ie Paradise City), and a electronic polish to convey what the artists needed.  In my personal opinion one is not better than the other as I appreciate all the hard work that went into making Chinese Democracy what it is.  I wouldn't say Better and the rest of the album is "overproduced" because of personal taste, but it's hard to argue that it didn't go through much more production that most other albums.  It all depends what you want.  The White Stripes refuse to record using computers 'cause they like the old, raw sound of tape.  

Chinese Democracy to me is a lot like the last three Star Wars movies.  Very epic, but there is a lack of 'realness' within the art.  When you start adding so much to a given work, the audience will likely wonder if it's the artist's need to overcompensate for something.  If you want to know if something is truly good, strip it to its bones and test the bare essentials.  Some people like it, others do not (ie. critics).  Stripped-down will always be considered hip.  The difficult move is going for broke with everything you've got.  When November Rain was released, it didn't go a single review without a comment of it being overproduced.  But few would deny the greatness of the song (the fact that it still gets played on radio today is a testament to its value; very few 8+ minute songs ever get played on radio, even fewer still get spun 10+ years out).  But play the song only using a piano and the song still holds up.  It doesn't need the strings, the drum fills, the epic guitar solos.  Some would argue that what Axl added to the song improved it, most would agree that with or without the extras the song is still a great piece of music.

Critics in general will always champion bare-bone acts like the White Stripes, Arctic Monkeys and the Strokes.  I think you can thank bands like Nirvana for that.  I suppose simple things are sometimes easier to appreciate.

Cheers,

Andrew

Overproduced?


well if you think five guitar players, two drumers, one bass player and a sub bass by another member, three guys playing keyboards, and 3 distinct background vocals, plus three different guys arranging the drums along with 4 other guys digitaly editing the song, according to the song's credits is overproduced, then yeah, it just might!

the wonder of it all is how they managed get all of those guys doing a song together. either way, i think it works, but it's def. overproduced.

Of course that's not a bad thing if the final product is good, wich in this case it is. it's overproduced the way they wanted it to be, and it worked very well.

you guys shouldn't say it's not just because you think that's a harsh critic. to be this overproduced with this many people working on the song and having it sound this good is actually quite an accomplishment. So Kudus to Axl and Caram, and Robin i guess.

of course this is far from the beattles days where the band recorded it all in one live take where they'd all play together, (wich btw is a great way to record an in your face live attitude rock album), or something along the lines of Vampire Weekend that produces just simple enough melodies to make it interesting, but this doesn't mean it's bad.

it's a new approach to rock music, or not so new if you think of linkin park that is known to spend quite sometime in the studio as well perfecting everything, but still, it rocks and that's all that matters.

so is it overproduced? yes it is! is that a bad thing? not at all, just listen to the song!

I'd be surprised if Democracy wasn't recorded on 2" analog tape.  It was definitely edited and mixed on computer (pro tools).

Interesting you brought up Nirvana since Andy Wallace mixed a good portion of Democracy (also mixed Nevermind).  Wallace has an insane roster of artists that he's worked with.

The only thing I can think of is all the little super mario like beeps during that amazing awesome guitar breakdown before the heavy vocal * I never wanted u.....*

That is the only part of the song I don't care for.

Pitman shines on 99 percent of CD, that part there is the only time I could do without it.

Overproduced also can mean that a track is stuffed with so much stuff OR every note seems to be labored and meticulously calculated thus sometimes taking away the raw power of it all.

I don't think Better is overproduced. Catcher yeah but not Better.

 I always enjoy your subtle(and sometimes blatant) jabs at Metallica... :hihi:

There's a lot of stuff going on in Better.    Some people like their songs simple, and easy to appreciate on the first listen.  Those songs, for me, tend to be the ones that I only listen for a short time.  After probably hundreds of listens to Better, the song has not grown old and I still enjoy it.

Plus, the melody of Better is immediately catchy, so you get the best of both worlds.    But, for some, all the complexities in sounds detract, even as for the rest of us, they enhance and increase the enjoyment we get from the song.

this is all good news and the review was somewhat positive.......but do you think this will clear the way for the video to appear?

Hopefully something will happen soon. At least Billboard is still talking about it.

seems everytime billboard comments on something, something else happens.

Very true. I guess I consider overproduced to be something that has had the edges polished off (especially on the guitars) and that definitely isn't true of Better.  It sounds good and edgy at the same time.

they may mean there are about 20-30 tracks when the song was mixed

Yes. Good Review. It's not over-produced at all lol.

Billboard usually has note-worthy reviews, but not in this case.

I never really cared for Better from the studio.
However, this is the best LIVE new Guns N' Roses song.

A live performance release from Rock Am Ring would have really felt good for me. I think it's a bit more stripped down live than in the studio and therefore I am in the camp that the song was overproduced.

Nonetheless a great song.

MW

quite simply, you are wrong.  this song is not overproduced.  jarmo already explained why it is not overproduced.  go read his post again, man.  it was spot on and he said it better than i could.

how can anyone say Better is overproduced?
compare Better with a song like Oh My God,

I like Oh My God, its one of my favourites, but to say Better is overproduced, you have to be fucking kidding me

if the world would use complex for overproduced I would also say it is overproduced  : ok: ... chinese is oversimple 3 chord song, better is overproduced, blah, blah ... blah, blah ...

they just need to fill XX lines of text!




-velimir

Songs that have lot of different things going on, like those on Chinese Democracy, are made or broken by the quality of the sound mix. In my opinion, Chinese Democracy's mixing and mastering is pretty astounding, as you can hear every sound, riff, scream and fart clearly, and nothing gets lost. For me, this puts it in the league of other so called 'overporduced' classic records like the early Queen albums, Pet Sounds, Sgt Pepper's  or the old motown singles. If the mixing and mastering was all wrong, Chinese Democracy would be a cacophonous din like, for example, Oasis' 'Be Here Now' album, or even 'Oh My God'.

So big love to Axl, Caram, Chris, Andy Wallace and Bob Ludwig  : ok:

"Production" doesn't just relate to the sound of music - how loud it is, how quiet it is, what the mix is like etc...

Production also relates to the arrangement of the song, the instruments used, structure of the sound - everything! That is what producers do - they work on songs, for example changing a guitar for a piano, or shortening a verse, or changing the bridge etc. I think this is what the reviewer is referring to - the song is overproduced because it contains a lot of instruments and sounds from the falsetto drum loop intro to the contrast between BH and Robins solo.

That said - I LOVE THIS SONG!

Can you buy an actual cd single of this yet?


 :peace:

Great post!  : ok:

There's so much about Chinese Democracy that screams "classic" to me, and that's definitely part of it. When i find myself thinking of something to compare it to i have a hard time thinking of anything remotely recent. This album has mainstream appeal (meaning the songs are catchy as hell), but is also a full-length work of art in a lot of big ways.

More on topic, Better is an astounding song. It represents what this album is about as well as what this band was and is about. It rocks it moves it grooves, the words grab you and the guitars grab you. It has vocals and solos you can't ignore, a melody that sticks in your head, and words that engage... and it does all that and still wraps itself up just under the 5 minute mark.

My take on the whole "overproduced"-thing:  I think it just comes down to preference. If the song was stripped down to just two guitars, bass, drums and vocals (one track of each), it would in many people's mind still be a kick ass song.

Me, I love the fact that CD is an album with melodies and riffs that grab you from the start. But still, after fifty spins, you keep hearing new stuff all the time!

If Guns had had the money and time to record whatever they wanted in '87, Appetite would probably still sound great, but totally different. November Rain and Don't Cry would probably be included on the album.

Come to think of it; bring on the re-recorded Appetite!!   : ok:

It's like decorating your house for Christmas. Houses in Scandinavia are (in my view) nicely decorated, but in US they are over-decorated!   :)

 

They could've shot the Godfather with one single hand held camera.

It would be the same story and everything, but not the same movie.


Same goes with music.

A lot of great songs are like that. You could strip them down and they'd still be great, just not the same.

So why should people complain about them being "overproduced" in the first place?



/jarmo

I'm not even sure they manufacture those anymore.  Only digital singles.

Some Artist still do the cd single route.

It's just one person's opinion on how the album is produced, that's it. We don't have to agree with him/her, but its just how he hears the record. So he can complain and you don't have to. Really that simple...

Why, should people complain?

Some people simply just like music like that, stripped to the bone....  I guess.

Not sure I agree/understand the Godfather-reference...   ???

Like the extreme metal/black metal-fans. Some people dig Dimmu Borgir, with their huge production, lots of synths, multi-layered guitars and vocals, live symphony in the studio and shit like that. Then you have the Darkthrone-fans, who loves the fact that they record some of their albums in 36 HOURS(!). Raw feelings stripped to the bone!
Some Darkthrone-fans might think that Dimmu has some great tunes, but they can't help thinking: "jeez, this would be fuckin' awesome if it weren't so overproduced."

And then you have people who love both (like yours truly)... 

Some critics might think ChiDem is a great record! But at the end of the day, they would rather listen to White Stripes or Wolfmother...  :)

Same thing with movies. Some like The Wrestler and some don't...  ;)

Sure!

But if you like that kind of things, should you even review things that are the opposite? ;)





It was just an example of how you can take something great and re-work it. It wouldn't be the same movie, but it might seem similar (same great actors, same great story etc)....


So if you took Better and stripped it all. It would be the same musicians, same great lyrics, same great melody etc, but it wouldn't just be the same....

Kinda hard to explain.



/jarmo

Well, that's why he listned to the record to review it. How would he know how it sounded if he didn't listen to it? I love the album and how it sounds, he doesn't. No skin off my ears....nor should it bother you, but it does, so "I'm Sorry for you."

I guess the critic at Billboard thinks that this song in particular, could be stripped. And to his preference, it would rock even more!

And I think that could very well be..

But I don't think he feels that way about all the tracks on ChiDem. Like the huge epic ones (TWAT and Prostitute), if you stripped those it would defenitley loose its punch!   :yes:

Ok, I get your Godfather-thing...  :)   Kinda... I guess...  :-\

Some movies needs to be "huge". Lord Of The Rings would not be great or the same if shot on a Bad Taste- or Meet The Feebles-budget....  

I don't think the reviewer listend to it as much as we have. see many posts in this thread are better reviews than the article.

Well, I did an accoustic version of Better. Of course it's my shitty singing and playing, but still, the song sounded great to me. Of course I re-arranged it, but still, the same melody.

IMO, the overproduce bit is just a common cliche used for some people in the media. The word itself shouldn't do no harm, but it was so used as a harsh attack that everything that sounds well mixed (unlike The Strokes ridiculous compression and absense of gain in the vocal) is labeled as overproduced.

So, fuck that. Does it really matter if the song has many layers? Shouldn't be all about how it sounds, if it's good or bad?

Exactly.


It's a cliche word used to try to put down something that doesn't sound like it was done in the 60s/70s.... And even then some records sounded better than some made today.  :hihi:



/jarmo

i wonder what they said about sgt peppers when it was released in the 60s.

The thing is that "overdoing" anything is bad. If someone says CD is overproduced it is a negative comment. However, I've yet to read a reasonable review that actually justifies the position of CD being overproduced. I could understand if someone would say something in the lines of "the myriad of layers of sound detract from the core of the song". That's what overproducing means to me.

However, most reviews just throw the word there to have easily something negative to say. Why it is easy is of course the AMOUNT of production on CD. Especially in contrast to AFD. (Although I actually believe this is bullshit too. Just because something sounds simple doesn't mean there isn't meticulous consideration behind each and every sound recorded and I do get the impression that AFD was very carefully produced to make it sound exactly as it is.) The point is that I don't feel any detraction from what I feel is the "core" of any of the songs. Closest to that is the damn intro of the whole album... So what if there's a beatbox at the beginning of a song or two? It's an intro of sorts also! It's not the song itself! All the strings are professionally arranged and fit the songs just as in NR (synth or not). I also have liked the Maddy samples from the get go. This I can understand if someone feels they detract from the music, but if you ever actually apply a thought process to the lyrics you hear you can easily understand their relevance and reason in the song.

Bottom line is that neither the album nor Better, is not overproduced. There's a lot of production on CD, but overdoing it CANNOT BE MEASURED IN ABSOLUTE TERMS. No amount of production is overproduction if it doesn't ruin the song. And any amount of production can ruin a song.

Exactly.


It just gets thrown around as something bad when they have nothing else to say. It's the easiest thing to say since it doesn't sound like all those hip indie records.





/jarmo

To respond earlier,

Better on CD to me just seems like a million sounds and whistles.
When its live, its just the band and fewer studio effects. I think the song on CD would have sounded even better if the guitar could be heard instead of Chris Pittman's toy box.

Mark

I hear the guitars just fine.

Sorry but your complaint makes no sense.

It's a very guitar driven song.




/jarmo

I don't know if there's actually less going on live or if it's just that you hear every single thing with the quality mix on the album.

I have no problems hearing the guitars at all. I think it is that the album is so well produced that you can hear everything. The lack of compression does that.

Ali

DUDE! If you can't hear the guitars in Better, then brother you're deaf. OR, don't know what's a guitar and what's a synth.

I think 'overproduced is just a throwaway adjective; a shortcut to thinking.  I don't really have a problem with the term.  Frankly, any album that took this long to make is inherently overproduced without listening to a note.  I love the song.  I love all the frenetic changes it goes through and I think it (along with If The World) sounds the most like I always imagined this album would sound.

I think Better is well.. better than all the other tracks, I love it, and I am a huge old GnR/Slash fan, but I must admit that Better made me belive more in this GnR and Axl than I did before. But for me GnR have moved in the direction of Dream Theater, Symphony X, Circus Maximus and prog-rock land, and away from the dirty RnR that was GnR's sound before, but its cool, I like it, and they are fine musicians all of them. So as a musician you gotta respect the album, because there is lot of skills and time on CD! : ok:

The lyrics to this track are the best part.  You listen to the lyrics in this song by legendary W. Axl Rose and then you listen to the lyrics in these other "Nu-Rock" bands out there and your head begins to spin.  Nobody cares about talent or any of that anymore.  And like Kurt Loder said describing old Axl...there isn't anything like that anymore...there's no more real Rock N Roll...instead of partying and smashing things and stories about chucking TV's out windows...these guys have publicists, attorneys, and investors and such hanging out with them after the shows.  I mean I'm all for investing and making money and stuff...but it's not Rock N Roll! 

And by "overproduced"...I think anything that took 13 years and over $10 million dollars could be considered "overproduced".  But the word is thrown around so loosely without ever being described as anything specific.  A GREAT album that took a long time and cost a lot of money is still considered "overproduced" but an extremely bad album that still cost a decent amount but took less time and holds no talent but sells records...because it's selling regardless...it was adequately produced??  If you're going to throw a term around...at least explain what you meant by it or at least compare it to an album of similar caliber that WASN'T overproduced...

I'm sure if you requested this information his head would explode...he has no real answer for you.

I like this explanation. While we may view it as 'attention to detail' and quality production, we need to accept that others may view this as overproducing. Neither description is right or wrong.

the over produced thing comes from appetite following the classic rock blue print: 2 guitars (one left one right), Lead guitar to the middle of the mix, drums and bass. Singular vocal track in the verse and double up on the chorus/bridge with harmonies, or the 80's fave "the gang vocal"

the UYI stuff was also accused over being over produced.

I think at times there seems to be too much going on for some people tastes (see the intro to CITR), but thats no bad thing, its just opinions.

As far as "Better" goes, i think its the least "produced" song on the album.

i know its already been said but i wish Better had been first single.I have been texting radio 1 to play it but they aint even mentioned it, Chinese Demo was played loads on radio cos it was the comeback single but i think it was purely for heavy rockers like us

The stupid douchebags at one of the radio stations here in New Hampshire are playing the leaked demo version of "Better" instead of the album track. Pretty easy to tell because that heavy guitar riff that was added to the final version is missing from the one they're playing.

I swear they seem to have a bone to pick with Axl. If anyone's interested, here's the stations website:

www.rock101fm.com