Here Today... Gone To Hell!

We are now entering November 2008, the month most of us have been waiting for for more than a decade: The month where Chinese Democracy is finally released! Feels unreal, doesn't it? If it feels unreal for you, imagine what it must feel like for Axl, who's been toiling and labouring over this thing on a daily basis practically since the early 90's. Think of what you have done since 1991, and you will start to get only some of the picture of the work that has been put down in this album. That being said, I expect Chinese Democracy to be the first, or should i say most, complete Guns album ever. I do consider Appetite for Destruction to be a very complete album, and an outstanding one at that, but Chinese Democracy will be something more. Here is why.

It's no secret that Axl was always the visionary of Guns N' Roses. He was the force behind it all, the tortured soul who penned down emotions ranging from everything from desperate anger to broken hearts and love, all in a brilliant and raw way. The rest of the group were no doubt quite talented, but Axl was the man that defined Guns N' Roses. November Rain, Estranged, Coma... All the visionary, epic songs came from Axl. He was raw rock n' roll as well as a visionary epic songwriter. Axl has publically (I believe it was in the Del James interview launching the 2002 tour) that he had to toil and struggle just to get Slash and the rest of the guys from the old band to go along with songs such as Sweet Child O' Mind, the song that made Guns overnight stars and which is still one of rock's greatest classics today. The misguided macho attitude of the rest of the band kept Axl from reaching his full potential as a song writer. The I-don't-give-a-fuck-attitude of Guns N' Roses was confused with laziness, and Axl had to work his ass off just to get the old band to work on the follow-up songs to Use Your Illusion (stated in the same interview). Axl was the sole driving force behind Guns at the time, and when you see the lack of quality in material from the old members since then, it's all starting to make even more sense.

Another thing Axl stated in that interview is that he gave into a lot of both internal and external pressure with Guns to release the Illusion albums, and that he has no intention of letting that happen again. Axl has now worked on Chinese Democracy for 14 years, with hardworking, talented musicians around him and with full creative freedom and all the time in the world. Imagine the result. Nothing short of brilliant. While other artists and bands have released album after album with no real impact, Axl has focused his genius on making the first complete Guns N' Roses record since 1987.

just a lil patience yeaaaaaaaaa just a lil patience ............excellent post but lets wait 3 weeks...im ready to explode too

Hmm, well said. I can agree with that.

I disagree with how you describe the Illusions, Axl was a big part in how they turned out, but a lot the songs were old GN'R songs from the Appetite period. And noone can deny that Slash is all over those records, he even filled in for Izzy in some of the rythem guitars.

Coma was a Slash and Axl monster, I think Coma was Slash last great moment. Estranged was Axl's baby off the set, plus everyone knows how he felt about November Rain, that was Axls also.
Izzy played his part with 14 years, DTJ, Dust N Bones, plus his role in bigger songs. Its pointless to continue, Axl played his part and was the driving force in some of the epics, but Use Your Illusion was still a great Guns N'Roses record, not an Axl Rose record.

I always thought that Use Your Illusions were a great testemant to how talented those guys were, that they could pull all of that together, when they were "phoning it in". From all accounts they were not at cohesive unit by that period.

you could of saved all that writing and put it all in one sentence,

Axl is amasing and has never done anything wrong, Slash,Duff,Izzy n Steven held him back and contributed nothing!

your very mistaking!!!!

You're very mistaken. He didn't say that.

He said Axl was the one with the vision.  : ok:





/jarmo

then how did the band hold him back, they recorded everything he wanted the way he wanted it?

I've always felt that Slash's very underwhelming post-Guns N' Roses career was a clear indication that it was Axl that got the best out of him on the Appetite and Illusion records.

The people who cry that GN'R aren't the same without Slash can listen to a Snakepit or Velvet Revolver album, and can easily conclude that Slash is simply mailing it in these days.

some people could argue that CD single lacks the grit n soul of slash's guitar playing.

Because they were either drunk, high, or both?

Izzy got out because he wanted to clean himself up and didn't want to be around the other guys who were still using drugs. My guess is thst Axl never forgave them for Izzy's departure.

On the subject of Slash Axl commented:

?Originally I intended to do more of an Appetite style recording but with the changes in the band's dynamics and the band's musical influences at the time it didn't appear realistic. So, I opted for what I thought would or should've made the band and especially Slash very happy. Basically I was interested in making a Slash record with some contributions from everybody else. There?d still be some chemistry and some synergy happening and whatever dynamics anyone else could bring in to the project. It seemed to me that anytime we got close to something that would work, it wasn?t out of opinion that Slash would go ?hey it doesn?t work?, but it was nixed simply because it did work. In other words, ?Whoa, wait a minute. That actually might be successful, we can?t do that.? People like to call me paranoid. It has nothing to do with paranoia; it was to do with reality. If the material were strong enough for me to sink my teeth in then I would still be in a certain public position in regards to Guns, we?d have possibly still held a certain popularity with the public as I have previously been fortunate enough to have had. Slash and his ex-wife Renee and his security guy and closest confidant at the time, Ronnie Stalnacker could not live with that. It?s not something Slash could live with. Slash chose not to be here over control issues. Now people can say ?Well Axl, you?re after control of the band too.? You?re damn skippy. That?s right. I am the one held responsible since day one. When it comes to Guns n? Roses, I may not always get everything right but I do have a good idea about getting things from point A to point B and knowing what the job is that we have to do. Within those parameters, I give everyone as much freedom to do what they want something Slash has verified in several interviews. Had Slash stepped up and written what we captured glimpses of, it would have created an environment that was beyond Slash?s ability to control. He did not want to do that or put himself through the rigors of taking the band to that level even if he was capable of writing it. Was he capable of doing it? Absolutely 100%. I think that some of the riffs that were coming out of him were the meanest, most contemporary, bluesiest, rocking thing since Aerosmith?s Rocks. The 2000 version of Aerosmith Rocks or the 1996 Aerosmith Rocks by the time we would have put it out. I don?t know if I would have wanted to even do a world tour at the time but I wanted to put that record together and could we have done it? Yes. It?s not something I would want to approach (without Slash) because at the time there was only one person that I knew who could do certain riffs that way. We still needed the collaboration of the band as a whole to write the best songs. Since none of that happened, that?s the reason why that material got scrapped. If one were to say well then why not do it now there are several reasons.1) My band, too much time, too much effort and hardship. Confidence in our material. Excitement in watching this grow and being a part of the whole experience. 2) Money. You get what you play for and nothing?s free. Can you cover the cost of this venture and its financial potential that I am just supposed to walk away from and for what? To where? I do not believe in any true effort or potential regarding most of my past relationship from the other party or parties, creatively or emotionally. Without that the money from a reunion doesn't mean much and though I'm sure the alumni is up for it for me it would be as or more lacking than it was during our attempts to work together previously. As a friend and former friend of Slash said to me in regards to working with Slash, "you can only do so many pull ups." This is my shot and you can root for me to fail all you want, but there is simply way too much put into this to cater to someone else's selfish needs and destroy peoples dreams I truly care about including my own. Not too mention that though I've fought what feels like the heart of the nature of this entire industry, my own people would probably eat me alive if I opted for a lesser course. 3) Slash has lied about nearly everything and anything to nearly everyone and anyone. It's who he is. It's what he does. Duff's support for the man though understandable in one sense in regard to his circumstances, is inexcusable, and furthers my distance from the two of them. For me Matt doesn't figure into the equation and for as much as I was a friend to him he was incapable of reciprocating and life is much better without such an obvious albatross. Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking anything away from the alumni in regard to their prior performances on record or touring to support the albums. I know how I was treated and more importantly I know how they treated others during both of these things, it's not a way anyone should be forced or even asked to work. And for the record I'm referring to Slash and Matt in regards to their actions and behavior, Duff played more of a supporting role (for reasons I've never understood). For the fans to attempt to condemn me to relationships even only professional with any of these men is a prison sentence and something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I'd say my parole is nearly over. I'm practically a free man and if you don't like it you'll have plenty of time to get used to the idea.?

I dissagre about the slash comments.... Why do people Bag Slash..hes an awesome guitarist...and this is the time to just enjoy the new time in guns history..Sheesh!!!! :peace:

so axl had no part in izzy leaving... give me a fucking break!!!! look back in history he did just as much as the others to make him leave!

Depends on what you believe, I guess!! 

i won't read all that shit, but i'm pretty sure it will be the first complete GNR record and as of now it's just the best record ever, i dunno how i can say that but i just know it

No no no no no no no.

Considering how the most succesfull, influental, critically acclaimned and appreciated album by Guns n' Roses was  very much a group effort, and very much " us together" you have to be MUCH more convincing than that, if you really wanna embark on a road of discrediting the old members in as epic proportions as you just did.

It's very cool CD is finally coming out and all, but we are still living in a real world buddy.
This is a world where Appetite for Destruction was not a solo project of Axl Rose. That's essentially what you are saying here.

"Axl was always THE VISIONARY of GNR.
Axl was always THE FORCE  behind GNR.
Axl was always what  DEFINED THE GNR."

You are describing a solo project in semi-lose meaning of the word;a "band" where everything is solely dependant of one super-ego, that collects a handfull of additional musicans around him to work for him.
You are describing a band that is just as much a band as David Bowie or Bob Dylan,for example, is a band.
Guns N' Roses was not that band.

Most bands have a leader who steers the ship.  That doesn't mean that the others didn't make significant contributions or that they were just doing what Axl told them.

It's just human nature.  You put 5, 10, or 50 people into a room and ask them to work on something, doesn't matter if we're talking business, sports teams, or bands, leaders are going to emerge.  In the context of Guns that always was and always will be Axl.  Some of you may not like it but that's what all the signs point to

It's not a coincidence that even with the old lineup, Axl is the only person with a writing credit on all of their defining songs sans Patience, which was an Izzy solo writing effort.  Some of their biggest hits were written by the whole band.  Some were written by Axl and Izzy.  Some were written by Axl alone.  But he had his hand in writing all but one of their most revered songs.  And the fact that he had to fight tooth and nail to get Slash to do songs like November Rain, Estranged and Patience kind of indicates who the person with the vision and the "big picture" view was. 

Excactly. Very well put.
Axl Rose was essentially the one who shaped the direction the band was taking from the beginning, but really manifesting himself as the visionary leading up to the Use Your Illusion records, which have Axl written all over them, and up until today's reincarnation of Guns N' Roses.
 

Well, no major arguments there. Atleast not when talking about UYI - era GNR. By that time Axl was the boss of bosses.
It's one thing to say Axl is the leader and frontman of band, and another to say that he more or less is the band.
You are calling someone who did not play anything but piano and keyboards as the sole fundamental and essential player in shaping the sound of an album that is a very guitar heavy hard rock album.

In another news, Wayne Gretzky was the only essential entity  when it comes to arranging goaltending of Edmonton Oilers.

You're only talking about lyrics. The lyrics Axl wrote are half of the deal here. Slash and Izzy wrote most of the music, so don't give me this crap about it being all Axl's vision. Without Slash's riff in SCOM, that song is nothing. Without his solos in November Rain, its just a long, pointless, bloated love song. I could go on and on and on. It was always a two-way street.

That's your opinion.  But considering you're the guy who thinks Just 16 had great lyrics so I take it with a grain of salt

Axl did a ton in terms of vocal melodies, arrangements and other production elements that elevated songs beyond just writing lyrics

Yes, it is my opinion. But I think I'm with the majority that these songs wouldn't be the same without the contributions made by the rest of the members of the band.

I don't see what Just 16 has to do with any of this. That was just a stupid random cheap shot that has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, it is a good, fun song that has lyrics that tell a story. Not everything has to be some wannabe November Rain-esque ballad about lost love, ya know?

CD will never be bigger than AFD period. We have heard most of the songs on CD by now and although they are really great by todays standards and what is being played on the radio, it is still not even in the same ballpark as AFD that has Anthems like WTTJ & PC, and sountless hits from like Brownstone, ISE, Nightrain, SCOM, RQ, etc.

CD may be the greatest record out now and for a few years, but it will never outsell AFD. Critics will hail AFD as their best work because of the success as one of the all time selling best albums. CD will be lucky if it sells 3 million copies. Lets just say it sells 5 million copies... that would be really impressive but it pales in comparisson to what AFD did. AFD is timeless album whereas CD is more contemporary and I think may sound a little gimmicky or trendy 15 years down the road. I would even argue that even if downloading did not exist I do not think CD would surpass AFD although it would do a lot better because of the anticipation for a GNR record.

You can't compare sales of an album that comes out in 2008 to an album thats been out for more than 20 years and came out before the internet enabled people to be theives.

you can compare quality, and I do think this is shaping up to be the best album yet.. although I'll wait till I hear all the songs until I give a definitive answer here.

The rest of the band definitely contributed, as the newer Gunners have done with Chinese Democracy... but as far as Slash's riff in SCOM, every Guns fan knows that he hated it and Axl had to beg and plead for him to keep it in the song.

If you'd like to see GN'R without Axl calling the shots, listen to Snakepit or Revolver. It's not very good music, though.

Very true indeed. Some people just don't get it though, they refuse to swallow the truth no matter how many times you shove it down their throats. People who hang on to the "It's not GN'R without Slash!" doctrine will never give Axl the credit he deserves no matter how many classics he writes and no matter how much shit Slash shoves out on album after album. I can compare it to a very stupid "friend" of mine who still, after all these years, insists that it's "I'm on the NIGHT TRAIN!" - he sings it with such vigour and passion that you can't help but smile. Yet, when I have kindly tried to point out that it's "nightrain" he refuses to listen. It's night train.
"Come on, look at the song's name"
"But the words are "I'm on the night train!"
"Look, Nightrain is a type of wine..."
"Listen to the lyrics!! It's Night Train!!"
Ok, fine, man. It's Night Train".
Sometimes it's just not worth the energy...

I don't get it...it is Night Train...
http://www.bumwine.com/nighttrain.html   :hihi:
I prefered Boone's Farm, because it was $1.99 and came in flavors that made your puke taste ok.

You're both right, kind-of. The alcoholic brand is "Night Train", and the lyrics are "Nightrain".

From my understanding, the band didn't want to worry about royalties so they spelled it differently, but they were definitely drinking Night Train.

And in response to that,  I think many many many people who aren't quite as enthralled with the new songs as people on GNR fan forums would say.. "If you want to hear Guns N' Roses without Slash/Izzy/Duff, listen to Chinese Democracy. It's not very good music though."

I'm in the middle. Velvet Revolver has good songs and awful songs. NuGNR has good songs and awful songs. But the only way to bring the best out of Axl and Slash/Izzy/Duff is to put them back together.

nothing beats AFD, everyone knows that.

Nobody will beat Babe Ruths home run record...done by Aaron.
Nobody will beat Hank Aarons home run record...done by 'the asterisk'.

Something could just as well come along to surpass AFD (hopefully in 17 days), but its run as the greatest rock album of all time has been impressive.

Huh - I just realized an ironic point...it took technological enhancement (steroids) to beat Aaron...maybe Axl is onto something with his 'pro-tools'.

Name one "awful" song that GNR has put out since the 2001 tour?

I can name entire albums from Velvet Revolver that I didn't enjoy whatsoever.

Go listen to "NuGNR" play Paradise City on YouTube, and then listen to Velvet Revolver play it with Cypress Hill.

One is Guns N' Roses, the other is a horrible cover band.

We're getting into semantics now. What one person thinks is awful, another person might love. There's no right or wrong answer here.

But since you asked..

Rhiad, Silkworms, IRS, and Chinese Democracy are all pretty bad to me.

Axl definitately was always the one with the vision of what GnR should be and where he wanted to take it. I think in the bands output it has shown tho Axl has many influences so I don't expect everything on CD to be big opuses like "Coma" or "Estranged". Axl wrote "Shotgun Blues" too which I know gets slammed but it is a favorite of mine and basically a straight up punk song.

i just wanted to react on the TITLE: SO FUNNY
anyway i didnt even take time to read even one word in this post and oh, let me think....  i wont

I listened to CD all day yesterday several times and I was very excited amd enjoyed it. Then I had to go out at night, got in my car and put AFD... and it hit me like Mike Tysons Fist to my face! I was like man CD is cool but it cannot hold AFD's jock strap even by todays standards. I don't care if Slash or Gumby played on that album it is just a masterpiece.

One of the elements that you fail to see is that AFD was Raw, Powerful, Emotional, Innovative, music created by some 18-19 year old kids that were drunk and stoned half the time. CD is a fabricated body of work orchestrated by Axl and a revolving door of handpicked top notch extremely skilled and seasoned musicians in the industry which have produced and over produced CD to achieve a so called perfection that does not exist.

On a side note for a second....I don't know if I am the only one but when I listen to CD I can't help but think that it is a soundtrack to a movie... and that is not a knock on it in anyway. I can just see a lot of these songs being put in Movies or TV shows in certain spots. I get certain visuals when listening to the music and lyrics and shit being played out on the big screen.

Some people will say CD is there favorite GNR cd and that is there opinion but the majority will always prefer AFD because it is hand down the Juggernaught that will not go down!