Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I just wanted to start a thread for fellow musicians who enjoy the new technical side of the band Guns N' Roses.  The sloppiness of the Appetite days are long gone and for instrumentalists like me, I welcome the craftsmanship the new Guns bring to the single. 

Firstly, have any of you pulled off the solos yet?  I think Buckethead's work is fucking ridiculous, but not too overboard for a rock song.  I'm glad Axl had the balls to pull these guys in, but at the same time keep it rocking.  Not like some Dream Theatre stuff, but a happy medium. 

So... what are your thoughts?  Critiques?  Are any of you having fun learning the new track?   :confused:

I like the tone and I love the bluesy fills going on throughout the song.  That reminds me of WTTJ.

I think a stripped down version could have rocked a little harder, but I still enjoy it!

The composition of the actual song sounds really basic, but when you add the 20 layers to it, there is a lot going on... But its still based around some chords and not really a true "riff".

This song is in good hands with Buckethead on lead.  A lot of casual rock listeners (not hard core gnr fans) when reviewing the song point out that the guitar work is excellent. 

When the album is released there will be lots to talk about regarding technical discussion, for example the dorian tonality of "there was a time".

And to the OP, in my opinion there will always be "appetite" sloppyness as long as Finck is in the band.  He does have his good days though.

it really kind of reminds me of a modern "it's so easy"

The technical side is relatively straightforward to me : it sounds great and I'm overjoyed with the finished song.

I think its amazing how they took a basic 4 chord song and made it into a sophisticated unique collage of styles. The production forces the listener to listen over and over with its intoxicating draw and increasing tension. I truly think its brilliant how all the blues and shred fills work beautifully together as a sonic arsenal to the senses, like nothing i've ever heard before. With all these instruments coming at the listener, the track never allows the listener a chance to exhale until the final bomb drops on the last hit. The record is going to blow our minds. Whoever said "its all been done" has not heard this record yet.

I never believed the "it's all been done" theory.  Guitars, drums and basses have been around for centuries.  If anything, we've only scratched the surface. 

Considering how far the song has come since its 01-01-01 debut, it's barely the same thing. The repeated working / reworking of the track has ensured that it breaks the traditional cycle of verse / chorus / verse : each section of the song, whilst superficially the same, is different with unique fills and riffs in each bar. I love the killswitch interplay between Bucket's solo - which honestly sound like no other player in mainstream rock - and Bumbles in-verse slides. This album will conquer the world if GNR keep up the momentum of tour / record / tour / DVD / blanket press attack over the next few years.

Chinese Democracy is a phenomenal song. First time you hear it I can kind of understand a flippant remark like "its only okay" or "14 years for this!". But once you hear it 4 or 5 times and you hear a different song each time you start to think "holy crap" i have never ever heard music like this.

I've never anticipated an album so much in my life, and i know it will be fantastic. I need to hear the final mix of Madagascar...  :drool:

the song and music itself is pretty damn easy. i can play the song. i haven't worked on the solo yet... basically cuz i don't really have the effects for it. my set-up isn't geared towards that type of sound.

CD the song... is faily simple and any guitarist can nail it... atleast the rhythm sections.

I enjoy bucket's solos and Ron's fills throughout the verses. They are phenomenal.

I always thought Robin was better suited as a rhythm guitarist and Bucket and Ron are amazing lead players.


I haven't really been able to make anyhing out of the bass yet.....

anyone CAN play it
but hardly anyone CAN write it.

it's like reading.
everyone can read.
but not everyone can write a classic.

Agree

People really underestimate the genius it takes to write "A" song, nevertheless an all time classic.

Thats why i always laugh at people who take a guitar player and treat them like its no big deal that they wrote this and this. As if anybody can walk in and do it.

If you want to know why it took so long to do CD, its because Axl had to find the right guys. U just cant audition a bunch of random dudes and make a classic.

Axl, got it right with this lineup though.

lol, no way. Not the solo, the outro and the fretless rhythm at least. I even think that the rhythm is harder, because it's played on a fretless guitar.
But... are we talking about the song or the record? Because I think we can discuss Shackler's Revenge as well.
Btw Robin Finck plays the first part of the solo. Buckethead didn't play it alone, he never did. Oh, and Finck's part is cooler imo - I like it more. :)

God im glad to find people that think like i do about this. I absolutely love the new GN'R sound. They aren't stuck in the mid-80's like hmmm some other bands.....

The production of the song is really great. The song itself is no masterpiece, but with the rythm added by BBF the song is quite good.

The problem is just that the casual listener, who is not a long time GNR fan, would probably only listen to the song once and if he doesn't like it right from the start won't give it a 2nd, 3rd or 4th listen.

but if it's played on the radio reguarly then they'll listen.. so just keep on requesting it!

I mentioned this years ago but got shot down quickly.  I'v allways wondered if Axl wanted to wait for advances in recording technology to get a bigger and better sound?

i do kinda wish CHI-DEM was more laid back like at RIR 3!!
Bumblefoot's fretless annoys me a lil on the verses, it drowns out Richard n' i dig'd the old drum beat, but thats my fault for listenin' to demo's.......but im still VERY happy!!

Buckethead's solo was amazing.

Finck's is boring and simple.

There's far too much guitar work going on in the song. It's very distracting and somewhat overwhelming for other elements in the song.

The drums are perfect.

Axl is perfect. For the most part.

Overall - 7/10.

Trying to post this again:

I think Ron's guitar work really gave the song a whole new level of awesomeness. Bucket's licks (specially the killswitch towards the end) are insane it has a perfect tone (unlike his live sound).

Didn't like much the Robin and Richard's (or Paul's) riffs in the verses condensed in the right channel, but I can live with that.

The bass work is cool, specially before the change in the chords pattern in the chorus.

I rather have Frank's drums on this song. Brain's work was kinda repetitive IMO, even if I prefer his tone.

Axl's layers are awesome. I was listening to Paradise City yesterday and noticed the begining with some layers too, so I can't really understand why someone would complain for having several "Axls" singing - it was always like this.

Mixing was killer, way better than Shacklers IMO. I just don't understand why change Ron's place on stereo from right in the verses and left in the chorus. Still, is amazing and everything sounds in place.

I kinda miss the old synth towards the end like in 2001, but Bucket and Ron fills sounds awesome enough.

Overall, 9/10.

I agree with all the above except for the kill switch.  Now I know I'm veering a bit off course, but unless a good bit of Buckets solos are gone or different from the leaks, Bucket abuses the kill switch, similar to how Kirk Hammett hides behind the wah so much..  I also tend to notice that a lot of of his fast fills consist of a very similar pattern. 

Now he slays me on the guitar, and most others, but I can't help but notice similarities amongst his solos.  For this song it's awesome, but if he is abusing the kill switch and familiar runs through the entire album like the leaks, it'll be a bit disappointing.

However, Ron's contribution to this song really added some "meat" to the track.  It through me off a few listens but I think he saved the song. 

And I've been playing a long time, and when I hear most any solo, while I might not be able to replicate it unless I work hard, I can see in my mind as I'm listening kinda what the guitarist is doing.  But on Shacklers, I've rewinded Rons solo dozens of times on that track and just laugh my ass off because it's so awesome.  I cannot for the life of me imagine in my head what he is doing.  I know he is using a fretless and a whammy pedal, but other than that it is just out of this world.

Just my 2 cents, and I respect all of the guitar contributions.  Just hope I haven't veered off topic from the song.

Maybe Bucket does abuse the KillSwitch, but it's part of his signature soun, and it immediately places his work as unique in style and sound, which makes this track stand out as different from everything else around it.

you got a problem with sloppiness? >:(

An effect should not be termed as an "signature sound".

I know what you mean, but I think it fits right in Chinese Democracy, just as in Better before Robin kicks his solo.

But yeah, from what I heard, he used it pretty much in every song besides Madagascar.

Thank you. I've been saying this for a very long time. This cliche pattern is used in almost every single solo he does, including his solo carreer. I don't think Chinese has it, but anyways... The first Better solo IMO could be better without this pattern repeated ad nauseum.

I don't think he used whammy. If anything, he used his thimble along with the fretless or in the fretted part of the solo.

BTW, check your pm. :)

I love the little bits Ron added in the verses :)   I can't wait to see what he's added on the other songs.

I love the guy, but it's really annoying. I'm been saying that lately as well - his abuse of the killswitch and the patterns is damn annoying. It works on Better, it works on TWAT, but it doesn't work on CD, IRS, Rhiad... it's just too boring sometimes.

That's why I hope Ron recorded several solos, not only Shackler's solo. :)

I love the whole song, but imo Ron's rhythm brought the song to a new level. 

Well, i'm not a guitarist but i'm familiar with Ron's work. You probably know, but the first bits of the solo are some killer fretless slides, some tapping and in the end he uses the thimble (if you don't know how it works, i can show ya). I think so, though. But you're right - even Petrucci couldn't recognize what Ron was playing on his solo record "Adventures of Bumblefoot", so we're not alone on this one. :P

I love Bumble as a guy, and I respect his playing... But just because I don't know what he is doing in a solo, doesn't mean its a great solo.  Sometimes it seems because he is a virtuoso guitar player, he has to prove it every chance he gets.  Finck to me plays more for the song which is what I think you should do.  Bumble seems to get carried away some IMO...  Bucket kicks ass and I prefer his solos to Bumble's, but the killswitch thing is old.  Since bucket sometimes does play more simple ballsy stuff that maybe Finck would play, maybe he adds the killswitch to let everyone know its him, that way nobody is ever confused again.  Ha.

Fuck me, every live video of Chinese Democracy has been taken down from You Tube!!!!!!!!!  I wanted to watcht the Rock N Rio 3 video clip to see how far the song has come... I wonder why take them down now?  Ugh!!

Can anybody comment on who plays what on the song Chinese Democracy?

The main riff/powerchord is Finck, right? And as the solo starts, that's Finck too, right? And then Bucket who comes in? And as Axl begins to sing again (after the solo), that's Bumble in the background, right?

Hope somebody can share some info on what they (think) are hearing, thanks!

 :peace:

Buckets parts (lead guitar): the start of the intro i.e. 0:45 to 0:59, the fill at 1:32, 2:53 to 3:06, and 3:21 to 4:17.

Fincks part (lead guitar): 3:07 to 3:22

The rhythm guitar consists of: Finck on powerchords, Ron with the new fretless bits, Fortus, Huge and possibly Bucket are buried somewhere in there too.

Because you should only care about the single.  :yes:

THANKS, Murray.

 :)

I agree. Low and really agressive vocals, really easy rytms... easy buy agressive drums... 1 main solo and 1 outro solo behind the vocals...


What I really didn't like was the solos, too much shredding but they all sounds the same, I can't find expression

There were also some blues licks played in that solo.

An effect is a 'signature sound' ; if it makes a sound, it's a sound.  You may not like them, but Pete Hook from New Order's signature sound isn't anything but a combination of effects boxes. Nobody else uses it or sounds like him. Nobody else sounds quite like Bucket, and if sounds good, that's all that matters.

I think the final version of this song is great. Very hard-hitting. Having heard the bootlegs from the first times it was played until now is great, you can really hear how it grew and matured over a few years. I have to admit that I miss the little keyboard riff that used to come in right before the first verse though. It was pretty cool. But my overall opinion back then was that it was a cool rock number but a little plain. Bumblefoot's fretless parts really turn the verses around for me, they are really well done, those little slides are just awesome. It's the little touches like that that make it great. I also like that they added the harmony vocals in the first verse, I don't remember hearing those in the demo. Wasn't the rumor that Josh Freese actually wrote the guitar riff for this?

I feel like some people are kicking themselves a bit for checking out all the leaks because now they've heard so much of what is going to be on the album. I am so looking forward to hearing the finished product and figuring out what they've changed since the leaks. Even the first leak of IRS is different from the one that came after it.

I think I'm most looking forward to hearing the final mix of TWAT. The demos and leaks have been muddy, mix-wise but you can tell that song is going to be a motherfucker.

The main riff of 'Chinese Democracy' is reminiscent of the chorus to the Scorpions "Rock You Like a Hurricane". Someone with pro-tool skills should do a mash-up of the two.

There is a substanstial difference between a stompbox and something as abrasive as a kill-switch.

Think of it this way, would you like to hear a wah on every damn solo ala that guitarist for Godsmack?  Hell no.  It's predictable and he is hiding his sloppiness behind the wah.

OK, Pete Townsend.  What if he used a tremelo on every rhythm he does?  You would feel like you were on a boat getting dizzy.

Jack White.  I like his playing but he is always using that fuckin whammy.

Peter Frampton.  The man is known for constantly usingf a talk box.

The Edge.  I respect his playing, but could you imagine U2s songs without that damn delay pedal?

Using a pedal like a chorus, flange, phase, reverb, or something that "colors" your tone is a signature sound.  Now the guitarists I mentioned above and Bucket might "think" it's a signature sound, but really it's the same tired ass guitar trickery.


Bucket uses the same run patterns and abuses his killswitch.  Fact. 

I play in a rock band and I have 17 different pedals, and a line 6 modular pedal.  I change it up.  That might be excessive for some guitarists, but at least I'm not using something as artificial as my talkbox and whammy constantly.

And no disrepect at all to the guitarists I mentioned.  I'm a fan of every one and they are where I want to be in music, but not by relying on one or two "tone-shifting" effects.

Have you ever tried using a killswitch?  It's not an 'effect', it's a technique.  And 17 different pedals?!  I think you're the one hiding behind effects mate.

If you can't stand buckethead, don't buy the album, because his parts are obviously going to ruin it for you.

Killswitch is a cool toy.  No I do not have one installed.  A technique is pressing a button?

Different pedals are used for different songs.  I've got 3 albums out, therefore, different songs might have some different effects throughout a song.  Take a listen and you'll hear how I'm not "hiding" behind 17 pedals.  Mate. : ok:

Oh by the way, I think I'll buy the album, just like I have plenty of bucketheads albums.  This is a Guns N' Roses forum, not a Buckethead forum.  You can still respect the player and his abilities and question some techniques, right?

Appetite For Destruction is as perfect a recording as you can get. Its backbones were recorded live...yes with the musicians playing at the same time (obviously solos & vocals were over dubbed). Rock Music / Indie Music & Classical Music is all about people playing at the same time! Its like a call and response. Appetite is so popular because it has a raw energy. Rock music recorded to a click track, one bar at a time, one musician at a time runs the risk of sounding flat and lifeless. Appetite was mixed live without automation - I read a fascinating interview with the mixing engineers, something like 6 people were at the desk doing the final mixes! 

The Chinese Democracy track sound great. I love the mix. The bass seems a little quiet but apparently Pitman has added sub bass...so I will have to hear through a sub before a final judgement. I like the vocals, SFX, drums & guitars. The drums are really in your face which I love. Guitars sound great.

I can't believe that you called Appetite "sloppy" on a Guns n' Roses message board.

Appetite is not messy... but it isn't the overproduced perfection people put out now. It's not flawless.

As far as the pedals go.... I have over 20 pedals... not in use at the same time on the same set up. I am a rhythm guitarist... I'm a pitful lead guitarist. But I love to color and change the shape of the songs. I enjoy having versatility and different distortions/overdrive. No overdrive is the same. I enjoy having my choice of any 6 pedals I think would go great with a particular song.

That's just me. So do I think Thorazine Shuffle  is hiding behind 17 pedals?? no. and until you hear his stuff you don't really know either. besides guys who are into pedals... it becomes like a hobby. I'm borderline about to call myself a collector.

I'm in a 3 piece band, so I'm the only guitarist, but you are absolutely right in that I use my pedals in the same way you do.

I'm a collector too.  Spent close to 10 grand on gear this year.  Next year I have one guitar in mind, and that's it...hopefully!

do I smell PRS???? lol...

that's mine. i love my 72 Telecaster Deluxe. My next axe is a PRS Custom 22. I want a GIbson Les Paul Custom too... great guitars.

Nah, even though those are great guitars.

I'm a Fernandes guy.  Have 3 of them.  The Ravelle Elite, The vortex deluxe, and a Monterey Deluxe.

The nex one is their new flying V they have that's a grand.  I'm kinda pushing for an endorsement, but I've got to get signed first before that's considered. :)

Sorry for going off topic Mods.