Here Today... Gone To Hell!

So, a tiny northern province of Georgia, South Ossetia  wants inependence and  Russia wants a new satelite country/state out of them.
Georgia doesn't want to grand South Ossetia independence.

South Ossetia declares itself independent, no one, not even Russia  recognizes them.

Tenstions in Georgia an Russia has been on steady increase about the matter ever since West-leaning nato membership lusting Mihail Saakashvil got elected as president of Gerogia.
He made promises to restore Georgian control in Ossetia. Ossetian seperatists and Russia dont want that to happen.
For few months now both Georgia and Russia have been positioning troops in both sides of Ossrtia.

On August 8th Saakashvil decided to begin fulfill his promise of retaking Ossetia. An  attack preluded by heavy artilirrelity fire was unleashed on Ossetia's capital. Russians respond immediately and send tanks, troops, to Ossetia and bomb various locations of Georgia.
In few days, the conflict officially escalated as a war between Georgia and Russia.


Or short version,
what a fucking mess.

What do you think about this brand new shiny war?
 
.

Well those involved are white and have useful land for an oil pipeline so expect action (eventually)

Now if they were black and had no resources then I'd say Russia would be having a nice new province with a few days

...jokes aside, Russia's army is so poor I wouldnt be surprised if Georgia fought them off single handedly

Yeahp, this is happening otside of " we dont give a fuck"-zone of   Africa or far east.
It this was two central African countires  pickering a little it would take bodycount of few hundred thosands before it overshadowed Lindsay Lohan scandals or "AN AMERICAN HAS DIED!!!" news in CNN, and bodycount of few milions before some random guy would bother to make a thread about it in some random messageboard.

with that out of the way,

Ehh, i don't think west intervenes on this one in relevant way.
EU/Usa surely arent eager to wreck relations with Russia over this. Hopefully.
Poor army?:o Russian army is miles from  what it was during semi-anarchy of post soviet years around early/mid 90's.  If they'd choose to properly level Georgia's army then  thats exactly what would happen.. But naaaeh,  they wont. nu uh.

When it comes to what has happened this week, theres not much Sympathy points to be shared in direction  of Georgia either. It seems like them starting the actual war efforts is what really happened, it's not just Russian propaganda.

Russia has been busy acting like total cunts towards Georgia for a few years now though.
Small countries can't afford to get provoked by Russia.

when CDe sees this thread he's gonna think "woah is there a war in atlanta?"  :hihi:

and again it all comes down to who controls gas/oil lines running through the region, as usual ofc...::)

Russian armys fighting on other lands just doesnt have the same ring as The Soviets.

Back then youd get spetnaz operatives, that would fly helicopters straight into moving tanks screaming arrrghghghghgghghghg.

questions like, "where are zee missiles?"

exploding dams. Colonels that you think are killed in the explosion only to survive and get involved in a plot to destroy the worlds economy.

Crazy Horny russian women that kill men with there thighs.

Bah, they aint what they used to be.

Oh noes why is Russia attacking ATLANTA?!

(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6697/georgianz6.jpg)

FAIL!

Uhhh, go Russia.  The Georgians fired on them first.

The Georgians even said they were going to attack first.

That's fucking funny, giving away your battle plan.

Even funnier than that picture makane posted.

Georgia has pulled it's troops out of South Ossetia & declared its own ceasefire.

Russia is still bombing cities in Georgia and thay aren't even near South Ossetia.

What's next, Lithuania?

Their assault was one of the most irrational and pathetic military operations of the decade
It's little frustrating all in all,  it was just what Russia wanted, now they have Georgia by the balls and can fold Ossetia into  what ever they want it to be.
why play it all straight into hands of Russia. Small countries can't afford to get provoked like Georgia did. Not if they live next to something like Russia.

In the broader sense I think Putin wants to see Russia return to the level of influence it once had when it was the Soviet Union.

The country as a whole has been very busy with this steadily increasing nationalistic vibe ever since Putin rose to power and helped them restore some of the (much needed)pride.
Nationalistic vibe is a bad thing almost by default it seems, though. Or rather, its very often a 1st step on ladder leading to fucked up events

Being proud of your country and showing pride is one thing, but when you step on your neighbors in the process is another.

U.S. Begins Flying Georgian Troops out of Iraq

Sunday, August 10, 2008

BAGHDAD ?  A senior U.S. military official says the Americans have begun flying Georgian troops home from Iraq after they requested help with transportation.

Georgia has called its 2,000 troops home from Iraq to help in the fighting against Russia in the breakaway province of South Ossetia and asked the U.S. military to help transport them.

The official says that the U.S. military has agreed to their request and "some flights have already begun."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity Sunday because he was releasing the information ahead of a formal announcement.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401121,00.html

It's just way too easy to slip from being proud  to being a true patriot!! Then before you even  notice, you are being a  war horny asshole.

Many people have died when this sentiment is taken to the extreme  ( ex. Nazi Germany)

Russia is now demanding that Georgia disarm troops near the breakaway province of Abkhazia and they also have troops there. We may have a second front in this conflict.  This is getting messy.

Update- Georgia is now marching deep into Georgia & bombing their cities.

WTF is Bush doing about it other than sitting next to Putin at the Olympics?

Seems like Russia is doing it's best to tear Georgia apart. They want to make sure Abkhazia and Ossetania both are well on their way out of Georgia and towards the loving armpit of Russia before hostilities end.

This issue is more important than most realize.  Georgia is a country that has sent troops to Iraq and Bush called them a beacon of light to democracy or something like that. Now Bush is not doing shit about Russia which is now marching deeper in that country. It is a bit too early to tell, but they may be deciding to just take over the whole place.

American hypocrisy at it's best that's all I got to say about it.

Georgia has been a loyal ally to the USA and what do they get in return? nothing......
and that's simply because there's nothing to gain for them by going in there.

That's actually the main reason why I didn't sign up for another 4 years in the army. I was tired of fighting their wars.

This is what burns me up about it. We don't necessarily need to go in there with guns blazing and start World War 3, but we could be doing a lot more to help. A blockade against Russia or UN sanctions would be a starting point. Russia has pretty much violated international law with this invasion. Granted the circumstances are different, but this kind of reminds me of when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Fine line between going guns blazing and just helping out.
Seems like Putin already slammed US for airlifting Georgian troops out of Iraq.
News are now reporting that Russians are still advancing.

Bush recently; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5FHQihY7SU

That's exactly what I was getting at, a blockade or sanctions would be the least the usa could do but it looks like bush thinks the olympics are more important...

(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/TStatic/photocms.jpg)
(http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20080808BushVolleyball.jpg)
(http://avatar.movetoiceland.com/ZZ0D69201D.jpg)

I'm not happy with Bush's lack of response, while he was watching the olympics, Putin went back to Russia to co-ordinate the attack. At least now he's paying attention to the matter.

To be fair, those photos are pretty funny, but  obviously photoshopped.

We pretty much don't have a military option on the table, we somehow were caught with our pants down. Russia seems like they have been planning this for awhile due to the swiftness and numbers of its forces swarming into Georgia. We can certainly make things harder on Russia within the int'l community since most agree that this attack is  not even close to being warranted.

Time to sign up Ukraine with NATO before Russia sets its sights on that country as well.......

This will be interesting to watch.

Russia went too far.

I really understand the fact that they were fired upon first.  Their actions in South Ossetia were justified.  But they shouldn't advance any farther.  This to me, is Russia flexing its military muscle to show up the U.S. and China.

Fuck all of them.

hahah i wouldnt doubt it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia

He should be the last person telling others to pull out of countries!  :rofl:

Can you prevent a criminal from shooting at you by calling the police? Hope you need to disarm him first. That's not too far.

What?

While Russia is truly getting most out of the situationin in very rutheless fashion, it's good to remember that it was  Georgia who initially fucked up. It's them who thought it was a good idea to launch an altirillerity bombartment in Ossetania's capital, then invade it.
Right now Georgia is  doing  it's best to be in helpless peaceloving victim mode, but it is them who brought the military operations to table. It doesn't exactly justify Russia's  current actions.But it's Georgia itself that made Russia's operation posible.


Russians do have a more solid diplomatic shield for  the current operation than what US has/had for invasion of Iraq, for example.

I bet even Russia can't afford(in diplomatic sense) to actually invade and occupy Georgia..but I wonder if they are going for a forced governmnet exchange in there, instead of settling to  just tearing the seperatist parts further away from Georgia.

Also, Russia suddenly getting some sort of sanctions from UN or US because of this is about as likely as U.S getting sanctions over Iraq.
When players involved are too large, they can pull this stuff off. No one wants to fuck up world economy or start a new cold war just because Russia is kicking it's small neighbor in the balls.
As long as invasion and occupation  of entire Georgia isn't taking place all EU/U.S will do is spam pleads for peace  and " pls dont do that!" statements to Russia.

I have to agree with my more conservative friends. The Neo-Soviets are making a power play. Apparently, they have now opened up a two front campaign ... a pincer movement to trap the Georgian forces. If they make a move on Gori their intentions will be evident.

This affront to the sovereignty of Georgia can not be tolerated. It is time time for the European Union to step up ... if they have any balls.

Think Munich!!!

sic siempre tyranis

Russian President Dimitri Medvedev just declared  they have reached their goals  and war efforts have ended from their part.

What did you mean by " stepping up" I wonder.
If there is an isoated incident of a meber of G7 assing about, diplomatic whine is more or less all you can ever expect from international community.
The only speech Bush ever gave during the actual war efforts*didn't even condemn Russia's actions. Instead of " I dislike russians using force!" it was along the lines of " I dislike Russians using too much force!"



*--atleast only one I happened to come across

Trying to achieve peace by bombing other country's civilians to death? Great job!

All I can say is that I hate living next to the asshole of the earth. And I'm not talking about our beloved western neighbour, I'm talking about the eastern.

So I guess Bush can't get any credit for helping this situation right?

He needs to get tougher with Russia, and I'm not saying it has to be a military option.

At least France  tried to do something with brokering the truce.

HOWEVER, As of this AM, 50 Russian armored vehicles moved into key Georgian city of Gori, seized military base and are looting in the city - this is after a truce was signed.

It does not seem that Russia has any consequences for its actions yet from the international community, so they are doing whatever they want, including breaking truces within 24 hours of agreeing to them.

This thing is not over...

As one senator put it, both sides just need to "show restraint"  :hihi:

Going to get worse before it gets better  :no:

He spoke to Putin in China, then he was back in the White House after two days in Beijing, contrary to the belief that people think he's still there.

McCain has the right idea regarding the conflict though  :)

Unfortunately, the Georgian?s are learning what happens when a reborn super-power knocks their your door, provoked or unprovoked. Western allies are reluctant to recreate World Wars I & II by fighting over a small parcel of land called Sudetenland South Ossetia. Russia is stepping lightly to see our response, and they?ll continue to press and absorb as much as possible until the West does more than just ?talk?. Sending out troops into Georgia would escalate this by hundred fold, but we could be doing a lot more to Russia on the diplomatic and economic front. Removing them from the G-8, barring them from the WTO and economic sanctions his would hurt Russia immensely and be very effective. I think they'd turn back if we did that.

 It's the E.U.'s call mainly, with the help of other nations.  The U.S. has been active in trying to end the conflict/intrusion.  Sec. Of State Condolezza Rice has been very active in the "truce" and President Bush has called P.M. Putin directly.  The US has sent emergency aid to the area in a significant amount.  The economic sanctions that some have mentioned between the US and Russia would do nothing because we only trade approx. 26 Billion worth of trade a year.  That is typically what we trade with China per month.  That's why it is really up to the E.U. to effectively broker a real deal.  P.M. Putin and Russia has shown it's true Soviet style and slowly trying to bring the good old days back.  They face isolation from the WTO or whatever groups are out there besides international isolation if it continues.
   The President of the US would be able to have immediate and secure contact where ever he may be.  He doesn't have to be in the White House to make decisions unlike the US Congress that does have to be in the Capitol.  It's common sense people...  Sometimes people are so wrapped up in political divide, that they can't think outside the box, which is why so many problems exist today.  Think about it, some are so politically divided that they can't even agree on a good idea if it comes from the other side of the aisle.  I guess that's why there is some much gridlock in politics.  There exists a large amount of our own politicians that do not think for the people but for the party line or their special interests etc...These are professional politicians and that's where term limits would help.  New thinking and new ideas.  Less connection to lobby and re-election campaigning.  IDK Maybe I'm wrong?

There was a (fast) reaction by EU.
Foreign ministers of France and Finland(France having the presidency of EU  atm, and Finland having the precidency of ETYJ atm) were both in Georgia before Russia had set foot in Gori.
It was diplomatic efforts of them(well, okayt, mainly France with additional help from Germany) that helped to craft the seize fire treaty  in relatively quick fashion. The actual importance of the treaty is questionable but hay.

Then again, it's all just talk. That's all  EU and US have done,or are willing to do  here.
There is, and there will be various acts of sympathy towards Georgia, aid programs and whatnot..but so far, there isn't a slightest hint of actual actions towards Russia. Just some harsh talk.

Stakes are just too high here. When a G7 country wants to show off and sieze something others watch. That's how it seems to go arond here.

It's good to remember that there isn't much of black or white in this conflict.'
Obviously western media is busy demonising Russia here, it's  prolly almost a reflex to many of the writers. However,  I was in Asshole convention of 2008 and noticed Russia, Georgia and Ossetania all had their own tables in the dining room.

I don't like playing devil's advocate here but it has to be said, Russia's operation as a whole in and around Georgia still score approx. 7 points lower in Cocksucker scale than the result USA is pounding in with the Shock&awe of Iraq.

Atleast Russians have a solid somewhat waterproof diplomatic shield for this.
They dont have to start creating excuses to be able to justify even some of this by  sending  Medvedev to an embarrassing world tour with a suitcase full of dias of some obscure as fuck embarrassing animated WMD trucks:p
I hate to play devil's avocade here but imho people are very horny to forget Georgia's own actions here. Just 5 or so days an entire western media ha forgotten that the the first bodies were provided by artilirrelity of Georgia.

It would be intetresting to know the actual scale of it all. Wonder how much  groundforces Russia has mobilised and used during the last week. How many men and tanks actually crossed the border?

Most of the articles I've read have focused on Russia wanting to show off its own display of shock n' awe, but I just saw that CNN is running a headline 'Gorbachev: Georgia started conflict in S. Ossetia' (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/gorbachev/index.html?eref=rss_topstories (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/gorbachev/index.html?eref=rss_topstories))

Mikhail Gorbachev, writing in The Washington Post on Aug 12:
"What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity. . . . The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force."


and that powerful force is us!


That would be interesting to know, might get some idea from these photos: http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551 (http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551)

There is a big difference between Russia moving into S Ossetia to protect its 'citizens' and occupying 1/3 of the country of Georgia.

Also, for Russia to agree to a ceasefire, then completely ignore it does not help their explanation either. Russia is clearly the aggressor here.

I dont think anyone can deny that Russia is being aggressive, but the question is why would a podunk country like Georgia disturb the rattlesnake to begin with, unless they were fully expecting someone to back them up. It would be like, I dont know, say, Jamaica launching a missile into Florida just to see what would happen and then crying when we bulldoze them. What would be the incentive to light the fire?

I just looked through all the photos in the link I posted above, it doesn't really give a good idea of the scale of the invasion, but the photo of the open flesh wound made me wince a bit. It made me realize how most media coverage is sanitized these days.

And anti-Russia.

I've been saying all along that if the Georgians hadn't attacked S Ossetia, nothing would have happened.  How you fire upon peacekeepers is beyond me.  Oh, and giving away your strategy.  Beyond comprehension.

John McCain is such a worthless turd.  He says he wants to cut off ties with Russia.  That is really smart.

Even Eisenhower and Kennedy maintained some kind of relationship with Russia during those dark years.

Georgia = Epic Fail

Not sure if you wanna call the pre-conflict  Russian soldiers positioned in S.Ossetia peacekeepers. Unless you are an editor for Pravda and want to keep your job.
At one point, Both Russia and Georgia called their own armies in Ossetia as "peacekeepers"
So basically we have 2 armies of peacekeepers fighting and killing  over which peace is superior.:O


Maybe  Georgia got provoked and lured into thinking there was not going to be a huge Russian reaction to their operation.

Georgian Diplomat: "So, we are going to go kick some seperatist ass, mkay?Tis ok to Putin&his homies?"
Ambassador of Russia: "Sure, its your fucking country and all, whatever dood."
Georgian Diplomat: ! sweet, thx bro!
Ambassador of Russia: np
*Georgia bombs Ossetia's capital*
Amabassador of Russia. "How dare you attack our peaceloving seperatist cousins, thou  shalt perish now!"
Georgian Diplomat: "But but!!"
Amabassador of Russia: "You fucked up boi  :)"

It's not like Georia attacked Russia itself, they attacked a seperatist part of their own country.
It still seems like a fucking stupid and self destructive thing to do. But it's so very easy for us to be wise and insightfull after shit has already hit the fan. "Lisa you fucking moron why the hell did you start crossing the street, didnt you know you were ofc gonna get hit by that car, the driver is drunk after all!Epic fail!"

I'm sure Georgia could have gotten some "REAL" peacekeepers in there ages ago  if they had wanted to.But why go through all that shit when you can bomb bomb bomb!Perhaps it never  felt like a good idea to submit the Ossetania-issue for international community though.

Both seperatist parts of Georgia declared themselves independent ages ago. Well, in mid- 90's I think. There has been a few larger clashes between seperatists and  Georgian army  since then.  With no significant reaction from Russia.
In past tho, Georgia didn't have a president who is very Nato horny and eager to switch camps.
It might not be a  very good idea to piss on the boots of a huge rutheless country next door.

It pisses me off how eager Nato is  to embrace all these small-ish ex-satelites of Soviet Union. Of Course it pisses Russia off and gets them all paranoid.
They should disband Nato and reform a military Union that better reflects the post-cold war world.Easier said than done though,

Earlier today there was a mention of " about a hundred  Russian armored vehicles" driving deeper in Georgia. :-\
Who the hell knows though.  First victim of war is truth and all that. Very little reliable info of anything available. You could say there is 3 sides here, and they all color everything they pass for press with their own lies.

South Ossetian (Or Russian)Seperatist PR Division interacting with few journalists:
http://www.vgtv.no/?id=17999

Lawlz d00d, you're fucking funny.  (The Pravda thing)

That is just the way I see it.  Everything was fine until Georgia fired on the Russians, it's that simple.

We've established that Russia is trying to show the world they are back with a vengeance.  It's not all about the U.S. and China.

Did you see the footage of Georgian soldiers firing on the media?  They can't fight against the Russians so they go after innocent reporters.

Russia is DUMB for continuing to wage this military campaign.  It has shown everyone what it is capable of doing, and has successfully driven the Georgians out of the disputed provinces.  What's also dumb is having our secretary of state with the bad teeth cozy up to Sarkozy just to come off as being one of the "good guys."

I'm glad we have the Olympics, or else the airwaves would be flooded with this crappy story and the John Edwards story, if you even want to call it that.

I think that's more or less what this all IS about.
When Soviet Union broke apart in early 90's, the entire area kinda slipped into a chaos. Some newly (re-)born countries recovered faster than others.
It took a very long time for Russia to recover and have certain institutions (like Army) working properly again.

It took almost decade of Putin until the country reached a state where they can start looking around and being active playter in international politics again.

And when they DID begin looking around, what did they see? - All these ex-satelite countries and even few Ex-soviet union countries busy getting their foor inbetween the door leading to Nato.
They see USA and Nato(for some odd reason) very eagerly and openly flirting with these countries pulling and luring them from one camp to another.

An entire ideological framework of cold war vanished together with Soviet Union and communism.
However, imho it looks like during 90's Nato and U.S chose to ignore the facr there is still a super power there, buried underneath the ruins of Soviet Union. And this super power, once finished with putting it's shit together, will have it's own interests and needs in the area, still.

Ending up surrounded by countries that either sleep together with U.S or even belong to Nato IS NOT Among Russia's interests. Through 90's  they were a complete mess and Nato as able to do as they please in the region. Now, about 20 years after death of Soviet Union Russia is finally feeling functional enough and influental enough to do something about Nato(quite ruthelessly) expanding to what is their turf.

And thats what the attack is all about. I doubt Russia gives a fuck about a single oil pipe running through Georgia or wether or not they get something as tiny as South Ossetia under their control.

It's about sending a message to countries in the region. "Check the map guys. remember what you have next door. Stop flirting with Nato."

eh dude those were russian troops firing on the media, A dutch reporter was actually killed by a russian cluster bomb.

Russia says they are pulling out tomorrow.

I guess you have already seen this but it is worth watching again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKhjehHTMW8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=W1yewjpmTdg&feature=related

Yeah this...Western (and Nordic) TV has lost all credibillity. Politicians runs the show and decieve their own people.
In Russia it's very bad aswell.

Luckily there is things like mobile phones, the internet that helps people get a broader scope of truth behind things.

I think that doesn't mean anything at all.

Can anyone lend a spare tie to the poor man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSIXIwGLhI

Should they really pull out? After Georgia did this:

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=PB0g6SpA3eY&feature=related

(sorry, a bit too long).

Russia is pretty much doing what it wants and saying Fuck You to the rest of the world. They are not adhering to the promise of a pullout again. Why even sign a truce if you are not going to adhere to it?

Sholud we really condem entire countries and deny their right of independence  based on heart breaking "I was in middle of it all! My wife heard the bombs dropping! This somehow means I know everything there is to know of the conflict, and am able to provide neutral factual info about it.  And now, dear watcher, here is what I want You to think of it all: -newsclips

That's a very cheap and easy way to make a news scoop.
They can be good and effective but " war is hell" is the only message they ever manage to tell.
you can bet your ass there is just as touching "Little Tatjana here lost her parents due to Russians/seperatists  bombing them to pieces!!" - clips out there.
None of them manages to tell anything of the overall situation but they are sooo good in helping to fold opinnions.

No Confirmed Sign of Russian Withdrawal From Georgia

Monday, August 18, 2008



The U.S. State Department was also unable to confirm a Russian troop pullout.

Four Russian armored personnel carriers, each carrying about 15 men, rolled Monday afternoon from Gori to Igoeti, a crossroads town even closer to Tbilisi. Passing Georgian soldiers who sat by the roadside, the Russians moved into Igoeti then turned off onto a side road.

Russian troops and tanks have controlled a wide swath of Georgia for days, including the country's main east-west highway on which Gori sits, after a short but intense war that shocked the West. The Russian presence essentially cuts the small Caucasus Mountain nation in half and threatens pro-Western President Mikhail Saakashvili's efforts to keep its country in one piece after Russia supported the separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Some Russian military vehicles headed Monday out of the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali toward Russia, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported, adding that the leader of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity, asked Russia to establish a permanent base there.

According to the European Union-brokered peace plan signed by both Medvedev and Saakashvili, both sides are to pull back to the positions held before fighting broke out Aug. 7 in South Ossetia.

Nogovitsyn said the Russian troops are pulling back to South Ossetia and a security zone defined by a 1999 agreement of the "joint control commission" that had been nominally in charge of South Ossetia since it split from Georgia in the early 1990s.

Georgian and Russian officials could not immediately clarify the dimensions of the security zone. Nogovitsyn said "troops should not be in the territory of Georgia," but it was unclear if that excluded patrols.

"I think the Russians will pull out, but will damage Georgia strongly," Tbilisi resident Givi Sikharulidze said. "Georgia will survive, but Russia has lost its credibility in the eyes of the world."

Top American officials said Washington would have to rethink its relationship with Moscow.

The United States called an emergency meeting of NATO on Tuesday to discuss the alliance's worsening relationship with Russia, and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice flew Monday to Europe to press the American viewpoint.

"I think there needs to be a strong, unified response to Russia to send the message that this kind of behavior, characteristic of the Soviet period, has no place in the 21st century," U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday.

Rice said Russia can't use "disproportionate force" against its neighbor and still be welcomed into the halls of international institutions.

But neither would be specific about what punitive actions the United States or the international community might take.

For his part, Medvedev defended Russia's actions Monday and issued a stern warning.

"If someone thinks that our citizens can be killed, soldiers and officers who are peacekeepers killed with impunity, we will never permit that," he was quoted by Russian news agencies as telling World War II veterans in the city of Kursk before flying to Vladikavkaz, near South Ossetia, to hand out medals to Russians involved in the Georgia conflict. "Anyone who tries to do so will face a crushing response."

A U.S. official told The Associated Press the Russian military moved SS-21 missile launchers into South Ossetia on Friday ? missiles that could reach Tbilisi, a move Georgia surely would regard as intimidating.

Nogovitsyn disputed the claim, saying Russia saw no need to place SS-21s in the region.

The war broke out Aug. 7 after Georgia tried to retake control of South Ossetia. Russia, which had peacekeeping forces there, sent in thousands of reinforcements and immediately drove out the Georgian forces. Georgian troops also were forced out of another Russian-backed separatist region, the Black Sea province of Abkhazia.

Russian troops then pressed deep into Georgia, including surrounding Gori and in the Black Sea port of Poti. They also began a campaign to disable the Georgian military, destroying or carting away large caches of equipment. An AP photographer saw Russian troops guarding rows of captured Georgian military vehicles Sunday in Tskhinvali.

Russian tanks roamed the roads around Gori on Monday and Russian troops restricted access to the city. Most shops were closed and people milled around on the central square with its statue of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, a native.

The Georgian flag flew at half-mast atop city hall, whose walls were pockmarked by bullet holes. Outside, several hundred people waited in line to receive aid, pushing and jostling at a gate where municipal authorities were handing out packages of macaroni, beans and bread.

"This is a complete mess," said Georgy Toptiatkhshvili, 67, a retired engineer. They only let people in if you know somebody. People are pretty desperate now."

Nona Khizanishvili, 44, said she had fled Gori a week ago for an outlying village but returned Monday, trying to get to Tbilisi where her son lives.

"The city is a cold place now. People are fearful," she said. "No one knows what's going to happen."

Russian troops were seen in Kikhvi, a mostly ethnic Georgian village in South Ossetia, near where homes were burning Sunday days after the fighting had ended.

The British oil company BP PLC announced Monday it has stopped using a railway line that used to export up to 70,000 barrels of Azeri oil through Georgia every day. Georgian officials accused Russia of blowing up a key railway bridge on the line Saturday, severing the country's main east-west rail route.

The closure of the railway line from Tbilisi through Gori to the ports of Batumi and Poti on the Black Sea further limits BP's options to export Caspian oil.

BP last week shut down its Baku-Supsa oil pipeline ? which runs from Baku in Azerbaijan to Supsa on Georgia's Black Sea coast ? because of security concerns.

The European Union, meanwhile, said about 70,000 displaced people were around Tbilisi but there was no shortage of food even though Russian forces had blocked 11 trucks carrying in flour.

Daniella Cavini, a spokeswoman for the EU's humanitarian aid office, also said the EU is working with private relief groups to shelter refugees in schools, hospitals, military barracks and a tent camp near the Tbilisi airport.

U.S. Brig. Gen. Jon Miller arrived in Georgia to assess the need for further humanitarian aid. At least six U.S. military flights have arrived in Tbilisi, ferrying everything from cots, sleeping bags and medicine to emergency shelters and syringes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405242,00.html

Wait... it gets even better....

Defense Official: Russia Has Short Range Missiles in South Ossetia

 Russia has placed short range SS-21 missiles in South Ossetia, that could pose a threat to most major Georgian cities," including the capital, Tbilisi, a U.S.Defense official confirmed to FOX News on Monday.

"Anything such as that, or any other military equipment that was moved in would be in violation of this cease-fire and should be removed immediately," Pentagon Spokesman Bryan Whitman said. "The only forces that are permitted to remain under the cease fire agreement are the forces that were in there at the Aug. 6 time frame."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405242,00.html

:no: doesn't look good.

Beautiful, just beautiful.

I don't think Russia understands what pulling out means!  :rofl:

From today's NYTimes, it seems the decision to ignore Russia was a gesture in appreciation of Boris Yeltsin:

"As a gesture to the Russia of Boris Yeltsin, who grudgingly accepted NATO expansion, ?NATO never developed military plans to defend central and eastern Europeans, because we said, ?Russia?s not an enemy and not a threat,? and we never backed up the new members with exercises and infrastructure,? said Mr. Asmus, who was a senior State Department official in the Clinton administration."


I guess we (US govt) forgot to update our little black book when Putin came to power  :)




yes, from Russia's POV, it makes sense to prevent this exodus of former Soviet blocs and neighboring regions into an organization whose original purpose was to be anti-Russia among other things. From the same NYT article:

"The Orange Revolution in Ukraine, which Russia failed to stop, ?was the real wake-up call for Putin,? Mr. Rupnik said. ?The Russian conclusion then, and it?s widely shared there, is that the limit has been reached ? no more concessions, a push for rollback, and definitely no Georgia and no Ukraine in NATO.?

Another interesting point it makes is about how France, Germany and Italy are dependent on Russian oil/energy, so they are not willing to be outright hostile to Russia (like relation between the US and Saudi Arabia).  Which leaves the US to prop up NATO?

There's no such a country as independent Georgia and I'm afraid will never be. What I'm trying to condemn is someone other's intentions expressed by the Georgia's president.

The war will start again after the Russian troops pull out - if not in 2 days then in 2 years. Is there need to hurry?

Aye.
There is no question in average Russian mindset that this is still the main purpose of Nato to exist and expand today.
And really, it' not like Nato is doing it's utmost to suggest otherwise.
Imo it is atleast a little bit odd theres absolutely no talks of rehauling Nato or changing it's image. The cornerstones of it are more or less the same they were during end of cold war.They could use a face lift really imho.

:o  Sure there is. Just because a country is unlucky enough to have Russia as it's  neighbor which brings it's own fair share of limitations to foreign poitics  doesn't somehow rule out their independence?

Ofc they were part of Russian Federation and later  Soviet Union for some 150 years. (give or take)
If you wanna revoke the stamp of " true independence" from a nation just because it has been in armpit of another nation in past, or shares lots of cultural bonds with a "host" nation of somesort, you'll have to redra the map of entire eastern europe more or less, and most of central europe aswell right?

That's what I've been waiting for:

http://media.izvestia.ru/foreign/article397/  the war as the lesson of geography for some people.

Check the map of Europe somewhere back in 1980's and you'll see that's not me who's redrawing the maps. Why do you think the redrawing is over and everyone out there is happy with what they got in result?

As for Georgia's independence that's so ridiculous that the only different option I can suggest is the insanity of their president who was ready to start the war against Russia before joining NATO or ensure his safety some other way. That's suicide and they shouldn't complain of the pain they feel.

BTW there's rumors/speculations about a new president in Georgia soon because Saakashvili cannot justify his master's confidence.

Because there isn't a multi-tentacled dysfunctional fucking monster like Soviet Union in process of breaking down like in late 80's?
Thus there is a genuine change  and desire for stability in a very vast area of entire europe which is something almost everyone is very content with?

Only one vast conflict(Balkans) During 20 years.It's a very good track record for europe all in all.