Here Today... Gone To Hell!

The other day I heard an interview with Dave Mustane of Megadeth fame (I?m thinking it was on Talking Metal). He said that once he records a song, it pretty much is the last time he plays it unless it becomes popular and adds it to his live show. When the interviewer asked if he knew all his songs, he was like ?That?s like over a hundred songs!? and acted like only some kind of freak would know that many songs.
Now, don?t get me wrong. I love Megadeth, but I thought the interview was funny.
Look at Bumblefoot. From all accounts, he could play 100 songs from different artists in his sleep. Buckethead could do much the same. I think Slash probably could pound out 100 songs out of his head at a moment?s notice.

Anyway, it seems that Guns always has guitarists who have more than just talent, but a lot of song knowledge of what?s come before.

I don?t know what my point is, other than I?m glad that Guns has had the guys it?s had swinging the lead ax for them.

dude Megadeth has released like 13 studio albums, thats a lot more songs than GnR has put out.

the songs must be so unmemorable even for the very guitarist that wrote them.....

100 songs is not that much really.

Considering their talent, the guys in GN'R are quite underemployed, playing the same 20 songs over and over again don't you think?

Ron has a photographic memory for music...


"He has "perfect pitch" and a photographic memory for music, so playing back a song (any song) and trying to include the other parts (bass, other guitars, keys) at the same time is second nature to him. He's the only player I've ever seen (other than Guthrie perhaps) who has the ability to play anything, of any genre, and make it seem like he's been doing it for years. His abilities transcend technique. He could listen to the most insanely difficult piece and play it back. It's unreal.

I was in a music store one time with Ron and a guitarist was testing out an amp. He was a fairly advanced jazz player and was playing some very cool walking jazz chord stuff, with a bit of improvisation thrown in. Ron wasn't plugged in, but was playing a guitar and played EVERYTHING note for note which that guy played. Chords, improvised melody lines - everything. It sounded like a one second delay was turned on. Ron wasn't playing loud enough for the guy to hear him and he wasn't making fun of his playing. He was simply repeating everything because he thought what the guy was playing was cool. When somebody has that quick and perfect of a musical ear AND there is no technique that holds him back, the door is wide open to any possibility"

~-Paul Warren, founder of the Raleigh Music Academy-~

-PEACE-

That sure is a gift. But I'd take a good composer over a perfect pitch hearing speed player any time.

Considering his ability, Ron's tone is quite lousy and the playing is often sloppy. Sorry, but that's a fact.

If he's so out of this world, then why does he butcher "November Rain" most of the time? That is not a hard solo at all. Also I'd like to hear his rendition of the "Nightrain" solo, but the Buckethead version please. Or give me something only half as intense as "Nottingham Lace" - played by Ron and I will shut up.

Not want to get into BF/BH thing, but Ron is a bit overrated I think. Wouldn't any guitarist with a little taste appreciate Richard a lot more if only because of the amazing tone the guy has? Even Robin is better because he is not the greatest player but the guy has feeling. Ron neither has feeling or tone, he just kind of "gets job done" wich is not enough to make them ears ring I think. Maybe for a while, but I think people will still talk about Buckethead when Ron will be history already.

Ron writes really original, catchy and powerful songs. He's responsible for some of the most critically acclaimed (exceptionally creative) songwriting ever to come forth out of the virtuoso scene. Recorded in his own studio, relying on his own production-skills. Albums that are clearly more multi dimensional than for instance Buckethead?s and usually got more credits from fans and fellow virtuosos. You're not broadly known as the new Zappa (like Ron) when you have little to offer composition-wise, Zappa was the pinnacle of creativity...


Ron is one of the few genuine fretless virtuosos. Playing fretless is very difficult because the instrument requires much more training of the fretting hand (for exact positioning and shifts) and more ear training to be able to differentiate the minimal differences in intonation that fretless instruments can express (that's where "perfect pitch" comes in). This makes Ron?s playing very clean, especially on a conventional (fretted) guitar). That's a fact. He can play faster than Buckethead, making it harder to differentiate between notes (which can appear to be sloppy to an untrained ear).


I never heard Ron Butcher that solo. As a matter of fact, to me he plays it better than any other GNR guitarist. Buckethead often played it in the wrong key and I?ve seen Slash butcher it countless times (like during that MTV performance).


It?s all out there, look for it?


You completely disqualified yourself with that statement. In the beginning of your post you question Ron?s composing qualities and use this to make another half a dozen half assed points about the man. Yet, here you are making a case for two people who have a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y no songwriting credentials, but praise the living hell out of them nonetheless. Fact of the matter is that both Robin and Richards discographies appear to be pretty bleak in terms of quality and quantity when compared to Ron?s. How about holding everybody to those same standards instead of this fanboyish behavior?

Furthermore, emotion is a SUBJECTIVE INTERNAL EXPERIENCE being just as subjected to interpretation as music as an artform itself. So it?s pretty pointless to talk about who OBVIOUSLY has more feeling than the other. However, one thing I do know is that Ron at least has been channeling his emotions into music that he can rightfully call his during the biggest part of his life (pre-gnr), making it all emotionally as authentic and pure as it gets. Richard and Robin mostly have been playing what other people came up with throughout their lives (especially Richard the studio player). Don?t get me wrong, I wouldn?t want to miss them, but I really can?t place them in the same category (especially not higher).

-PEACE-

no, thats an opinion, actually.   I don't share it, and I know a lot of GnR fans who don't.   

I actually have a GNR interveiw CD..as Im sure most of you do also where Slash is being interviewed, and he said when Gilby came on board he actually had to put Use Your Illusion in his cd player(something he hadnt done in quite a while) to remember the parts to help show Gilby how it was done....grant it those were Izzy's parts...but I know for a fact that Slash has said on several occasions that he never listens to his own records

And yet the guy has yet to write anything that will be remembered.

you're talking out of your ass, i know, because you havent heard his albums yet. ;)

here's a review at unfretted.com: "Bumblefoot (Ron Thal), the big man of the fretless"
Do you really think that the big man of the fretless's playing is often sloppy? ::)
that's the same as some youtube kids saying '"LawLzZz!1!!!! BbF's 0ut of tun3!!!111", when he's got absolute pitch (perfect pitch).

Funny, because i've heard Ron playing it like 30, 40+ times and i dont remember him being sloppy or butchering it once.

Ha, do you actually think Buckethead's version is harder to play? Dude, Ron plays as fast if not faster than Buckethead on his fretless guitar! FRETLESS GUITAR!

guitars still suck, orf, guitars suck, fly in the batter, don pardo pimpwagon... i'm not the right guy to say that, though.

dude, Slash fans will appreciate Richard more, of course. He plays some Slash's solos note for note, plays Buckethead's solos note for note  and yet he 'steals' a buckethead lick. He's not even close to Ron, in any aspect. ANY aspect.

i'm just posting a few things i'd like to say, but slipdisc already covered it all.

Having memorable music and being popular are two different things.

I think that no offense to megadeth  , they put out some great music , but to me it's pretty standard metal riff'age which isn't bad at all but its just that , riffs. Since the start Guns has had guitar hooks , I mean Jungle , Paradise City , Sweet Child , the guitar playing is as memorable as the lyrics. It continues with the current band's guitarist as well , they all know it goes well beyond playing the guitar , you have to create something. It's like an art within an art.!  :beer:

Any great artist want's their music to be remembered in some way, and so far no one is going to remember Bumblefoot. The greatest of them all Beethoven, wrote music to be remembered. Having perfect pitch and music memory means jack shit in rock music. ::)

Bumblefoot rocks...

Buy his latest album, Normal, and see for yourself...

Bumblefoot not only rocks, he's un-fucking-believable.  : ok: I hope he gets to put some sizable input on future gnr releases.  :smoking:

Totally agree, I LOVE that album.

Those statements are nothing but an exercise in ignorance. Popularity doesn?t equal quality. So what if the guy hasn?t got mainstream successes under his belt, look at what mainstream music has become. He has some of the most memorable releases ever coming forth out of the virtuoso/prog. rock scene on his discography. Who are you and your mainstream perspective and ignorance towards the man?s work, to conclude that all of this isn?t worth remembering? Since when is your taste in music the status quo we all should live by? Since when is everything that isn't able to position itself in your narrow mind equally trivial to all of us? Ron is already a guy of mythological proportions during his life, he will be remembered by those who matter.

 
No it means jack shit to you. In the end every musician (in every genre) is happy to have as little barriers (technique, timing, tone etc) as possible to overcome when trying to materialize (play) the music that lives inside of him. The more naturally gifted you are, the easier it is to make that translation hence making the translation in itself more authentic and pure than when somebody who has to struggle.

-PEACE-

 

I think Bucket is better than Ron.
The guitar solos of GNR clasics songs played by Bucket are fantastic. The Ron solos of GNR songs are very poor. He only moves his fingers from up to down and always sounds the same.
Anyway, we have to hear him in the album. But live, i really dont like Ron.

OMG, I thought I was the only one noticing that. It was HORRIBLE! I remember stating this fact somewhere and get bashed by Bucket fans... Also, tell me if I'm that tone depth, but Richard also gets the wrong key in his last note on November Rain solo, right?

And I agree with you, Ron plays NR solo better than anyone. Even Slash often fucked up his own solo live if you compare to the original...

While I agree with you in some aspects, I disagree with your thoughts on Robin's quality. I know he's still to release a lot of music, but from what I heard so far (including covers), he's a pinnacle of creativity an quality in the band. I know it's a matter of taste, but anyways... Can't say the same to Richard, tho.

Hey mate, you wouldn't be surprised if I agree with you, would ya?  ;D

Amuses me how Richard is praised not by what he wrote, but how close to Slash he gets. Like if it's that hard... I bet A LOT of guitar players here (myself included) can come close enough to Slash in both tone and playing (I mean, covering his solos). But tell me what Richard wrote so far that reach Robin or Ron level? His The Blues outro solo is nice, but not as good as Robin's in the same song (yeah, it's an opinion, but I think the majority agree with me).

Richard doesn't have a great tone (too compressed), his writing is regular (I mean, he's a great studio session guitarist but that's it - he's not exceptional and not too different than any other regular professional studio musician) and most of his improvisations are rather boring and repetitive. Also, he tries way too hard to play Bucket's licks (above mentioned by Bruno) and Slash's solos note by note, hence why he's the favorite guy by Slash and Buckets fans (that Classic Rock article is one example).

While playing just old songs and solos he didn't write (like Madagascar one), he's good so far. But in writing skills, I've yet to see what he's capable of. Don't get me wrong, I think Richard is great. But nothing spectacular like the other guys... I don't think Axl kept him as a rhythm guitar in most of the songs for nothing.

I've been listening to lot of Buckethead lately, confirmed what I had previously thought, Buckethead probably is the most talented guitar player ever and one amazing composer. Bumblefoot is great also, but I haven't heard nearly as much of his music as I have of Bucket's, but he is damn good, they both are different and have their own strengths, Bucket can create sounds unrivaled by none and use them to play some of the most original stuff you have ever heard. Bumble's fretless guitar playing is cool and definatly one of his strengths

I like all the guitar players in guns, they all have different styles and that's important, I really don't care who is the best guitar player in Guns, as long as their playing brings something cool to the songs, I hope that lot of Bucket's playing will end up on the records, Better with Bucket playing the choruses using the "red button" style sounds just so mean and is something that the others wouldn't have come up with.

Bumble's contributions to the song Better are nice but they aren't really needed, that guitar slide, or what ever it's called is probably the best addition. But his contributions to I.R.S. are much more better and give that song something that it needed. Richard's solo on The Blues might not be better than Robin's but those solos serve a different purpose, Richard's solo is great for that part of the song.


btw. Dave Mustane has Finnish roots, Mustonen!

IMO BH is unparalleled. His guitar is unique in sounding so delightfully free from any fetter as if there was no such thing as the law of gravitation. Mind you hes even free from the band, haha.

But it doesn't mean other guitarists aren't great. All Chinese democratic guns have their strong suits respectively. why should we carp at the other to praise one?


I liked the pieces posted at 4tus site. Chic and tight lovely little tunes. Thought those were by Richard? ???

I don't know anything about music theory. I just like to listen to music....

So, excuse the ignorance, but is it possible for a guitarist to play "off key" or "the wrong notes" simply because he chooses to play the part in his own style instead of making a carbon copy of the original?




/jarmo

Theory and pure knowledge, nobody comes close to Ron in the GNR family.  Ron is an absolute beast.  Bucket was too.  However, Bucket is more identifiable because he acutally has a "sound" it seems and he does his thing, and does it very well.  Ron is so super intelligent with the instrument, and he is good at so many things, its hard to actually know Ron's sound.  When you hear Zakk, you know its Zakk, when you hear Slash, you know its Slash.  When you hear Angus, you know its Angus.  Plus those guys are all "Rock" players.  Ron is not really a "rock" guitarist, but he can be.  He is a master of all genres.  Its like you got the Jimmy Page's, Slash's, Angus of the worlds in the blues rock/hard rock genre.  Then you have Buckethead that can do all their stuff with emotion and balls, but more of a virtuoso type.  Then you have Ron, which can own all of the above but really is the least identifiable.  Do I make sense??

Jarmo, if you are in key, the improv sounds cool cause it works with the chord or key you are in. Out of key can work if its a passing note really fast (even Slash does this), but bending an out of key note, or milking a bad note is more of a fuck up cause it just doesn't go.  Now, Eddie Van Halen was famous for thinking outside the box with "bad" notes and getting computer game types sounds with it.  So it can work in the right context.  Basically if you pause on the bad note, I think it sounds awful and they usually have to try to bend up to get back in key. 

I know what you're saying, but considering the complaints don't just mention one particular show.

It's like it happens every show, so you'd think it's not because they can't play the songs.....

They're not beginners....




/jarmo

Intresting to read the opinions of everyone, when it comes to the guitarists discussions always get intresting...and nowhere?

I saw Ron live with GN'R and I have heard several other recordings of him, so I think I can afford an opinion - and I stand by it, he just doesn't make my ears bleed for a second.

In the end he fits just as good or bad as Buckethead, both are amazing players but while BH took the dominance thing over the top, sometimes stealing the show even from Axl, Ron he is the opposite, such a great nice guy from next door who has absolutely no stage presence or star factor. That sure has nothing to do with his playing, but you can sure hear that attitude in his playing. Nothing fancy anywhere with that guy.

And fretless or not, he could play on a surfboard if it won't make my goose bump I don't care. Just compare live and studio IRS, Better, CD and TWAT, there are versions of both players out there, and you will see he CAN PLAY what Buckethead played, but Buckethead just SOUNDS so much better.

Can anyone recommend some good YouTube stuff of Ron? In return, I can recommend Buckethead's "Nottingham Lace" on YouTube, the clip where he is in a small club and in the beginning someone shouts "thank you for coming", this is some pretty good stuff along with his Nightrain solo and the beautiful TWAT solo.

Funny how all of a sudden, for some it's now all about how many notes one can shred. I remember when Buckethead was new, people complained about lack of feeling in his playing - until they heard TWAT?

I would like to hear what do the guitar players among the fans think? Me I've been playing for some time and I think Buckethead just wipes the floor with Ron - in his sleep, with both hands tied to the back, getting a manicure. My favourite player at the moment in GN'R is Richard, while Robin, surprisingly, is growing on me more everyday.

can't be sure as I'm not him/her but it's very possible that it is deliberate. In that case no note is wrong.
as for the key thing, they can play on key and yet differently from the original. the intent of playing off key could be to add some shock effects. the thrills of hearing something unpredictable.


I have absolute pitch and the grade 5 in music theory so I can tell you that those don't mean a shit. :hihi:

I guess everyone who started their piano lessons as a preschool kid should have perfect pitch.
And that doesn?t give you a huge advantage unless you're tuning your instrument or singing music at sight. Or studying a tonal language such as Chinese.   ;)
Relative pitch is what a musician needs.

Exactly , you should pick a guitar up bro' this is an approach that has seem to be long forgotten. Slash has always said that he doesn't know much theory of any at hell ( neither did SRV or Hendrix ) he merely plays what he thinks sounds good. Which is something that still continues in the GNR guitarist today , and that really makes a big difference.

Wow, that's cool.

Here is what I look for in a guitar player


Originality, Feel, Composition ability and Phrasing.


I could give a shit how fast or technical someone can play because that adds nothing to a song.


Gene Simmons said it best. "Id rather hear a simple A Chord that breaks your ribs, than a million notes that sounds like a bunch of angry bees"


I laugh at people who see someone do all sorts of guitar gymnastics and tricks and believe they are the greatest this or that ever. Its a novelty that wears thin.

I actually really like Buckethead. I think he had amazing potential in this band.

Ron seems awesome as well, his playing doesn't seem as clean as Bucket's.

With Bucket he was fast and amazing but u could hear what he was playing. At times, Ron's notes sound a bit jumbled and its hard to decipher exactly what he is playing.


Riffs and memorable solos impress me

I could care less how fast u can go up and down a fretboard.

Great post D!  What you say is what made Angus Young so great!  The perfect blend of shred/blues rock may be Michael Schenker.  Pure awesomeness.  The Solo to Rockbottom on Strangers in the Night is Excactly what I mean.  MS was a huge influence to Slash. 

It is exactly like someone watching the Harlem Globetrotters do all those fantasy basketball tricks and saying they are better than Micheal Jordan cause they can do all that stuff and he can't.

this is the clip.  Watch this solo, its amazing. Pure rock brilliance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnQFLoCbWw


Holy Shit, I just watched this clip for the first time in so long.  Guys, this song came out in the 70's, look how advanced this guy was.  Its amazing.  You can see how much Slash pulls from him.  Even in the tone dept.  That solo smokes and is so well structured.  What a power house band that most people never heard of. I love it.

I'm almost certain that Mike Clink produced them , and the live album which is why GNR wanted him for their work right? UFO rock in every shape and form , not many people give them the respect they deserve. ( Rock Bottom bass line is bad ass !!! )

Now you know it better ;)

:rofl: not at all. :P

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is off topic, but i've heard Ron playing Robin's parts on Better and it wasn't bad. :-\
well, i liked it because he didn't play like he was supposed to (probably because he hadn't time to learn even his own parts, lol, or because he wanted to), but played it in a different way and it sounded really good to me. ;D


i don't think he was talking about Robin's quality, i think he was talking about the lack of released music. Hopefully Axl will fix it soon, and yes, i love his lead/rhythm playing on the new songs.

wow, i didn't know about Clink.  I like the "where do we go from here" part.  Did Axl borrow that from Sweet Child O'mine?  They were a brilliant rock band!

I donno much about guitars but aren't you mixing up perfect pitch with relative pitch? :confused:

I've found the stuff I was raving about, there you go:

Buckethead - NOTTINGHAM LACE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYxrdrzmuUw
Give it some time to build up, the beginning isn't very flashy but the second half will make your ears bleed.

Buckethead - NIGHTRAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk7plGs3RP0
It's just unreal, one of the most memorable moments in GN'R ever for me.

I like all the players past and present (even Ron) but I honestly think no one will ever come close to what Buckethead was about to tickle out of the songs and sound of this band. He and Axl could have been the greatest Michael Jackson / Willy Wonka kind of team and I really mean that in a good way.

Hope you enjoy the Buckethead clips? Post some of Ron if you like!

No offense but BH is by far to me the worst GNR guitarist , including every guitarist in the band. That solo , doesn't fit the songs mood at all , its just what it is mindless shredding running up and down scales never impressed me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVinK3AMBis - Decent nightrain'age , he sticks to the original but expands on it by making it his own , but still fits the song perfectly. With BH it's like GNR is a basketball game , and a player is throwing a football you know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSgun5Y0vEA - Slash owns the original though , I'm sure many will disagree , the tone , the playing , the full on style man. But one of the best I've heard is the Tokyo 1988 one , this one is the RIR 92 one tho' ( speaking of slash looks likes sideshow bob here lmao )

EDIT: AHH Tokyo 1988 , IMO the best sounding show from the AFD line up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K9MjjTC1w4

My god, that 1988 version is incredible. 

bumble's tone in that one clip was way too processed, but he played well.

Yeah the tone is somewhat off , but then again the stream was pretty crappy to begin with. I don't know what it is about the that '88 clip that is so fuckin' cool.

EDIT: !!! look at jungle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Z4PUG0uuE  :o  8)

Holy Fuck!!!!!  That Jungle intro was what it was all about.  That is what seperates Slash from the rest. Not a display of skill or speed, just pure rock n roll.  Primal Dino music.  Sexy and Ballsy.  That is why people hold him in such high regard, cause he is a pure badass on guitar! : ok:

Buckethead's reminds me of 80's hair metal guitar soloing, just a bunch of fast meaningless scales.

Faster doesn't mean better.


Bumble's guitar solo on Nightrain is Tight. I really like it a lot. It kicks fuckin ass. I think he should be the sole lead player as I really like his solos.

lets quit the old who was/is better/ worse competition. Besides, I don't think yourtube clip and boots can do justice.
Music is subjective. no theory can change how it sounds to an individual listener.


Back to the guitarist attitudes toward their music,
As far as I can see being aggressive, diligent and earnest is the attitude common to all of the recent GNR members.

im not gonna post youtube links, ill post just this:

http://rapidshare.de/files/38532957/05_Better.mp3.html
    
This is Better mp3 from  the Budapest 2006 show (Hungary, 31th may) . ChrisMaciel is the uploader, so thanks once again dude.

this is that show which Robin smashes his guitar and Ron improvises Robin's solo, backing vocal melodies and final riff.