Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Out of Patience, Give Us Chinese Democracy!

An Open Letter to Universal Music Regarding The New Guns N' Roses Album By Anthony Kuzminski: Over the last few months, the rumor machine has been working overtime as to why 'Chinese Democracy', the long awaited Guns N' Roses album, has yet to be released. Well, it's been one of the most talked about albums of all time, merely because of what it may or may not hold. Regardless, the rumor mill has kicked into high gear in recent months because it has been confirmed that Axl Rose has indeed turned the completed album into Universal Music. Something most people never thought would happen?has happened. There should be shouts of jubilation inside Universal Music, alas, there isn't.

To set the record straight, I don't know anyone in Guns N' Roses and I don't have a personal contact at Universal Music. However, the same rumors appear to be popping up continually and it evolves around how to market the album and since Universal has sunk a large amount of money into this project already, there are rumblings that they are unwilling to set aside large amounts for promotion since they have yet to recoup their initial investment.

The first Guns N' Roses album in fifteen-years is a story in itself and this alone should be enough to sell copies out of the box, however, Universal apparently is holding the album hostage until some kind of agreement can be made. One of the things I keep hearing is that the label has "reportedly" spent $14 million in expenses for this album. Now, granted, I believe the 'Greatest Hits '87-'94' was released specifically to recoup some of these costs and that particular album has been a consistent and constant seller ever since (selling over 3 million copies) but let's say hypothetically that Universal wants to find the easiest way to recoup this $14 million, while simultaneously getting this album into the marketplace. Here are three simple, effective and profitable ways to recoup your investment, while allowing Axl Rose to release 'Chinese Democracy'


This melody inside of me, still searches for solution
-"Better"

Option #1-The Digital Release
My advice would be to go the Radiohead route and release the album digitally first. This is the easiest way to avoid having the album leak early from the pressing plant. Whether it happens two days before the album's release or two months, the key is to unleash it before it can be found everywhere for nothing. Now while Radiohead's model was admirable, it appears that many chose to not pay anything for the album. For the Guns record, why not institute a $3 charge for the album. But here is the kicker. Charge $3 for a mid level MP3 rip (192 or better) and do not release it until you have secured two million downloads. Some people are so fanatical about wanting to hear this album; they would potentially order multiple digital copies just so they could get their hands on the album sooner. For those of you in the music industry reading this, I am well aware of the irony of my idea since Universal Music appears to be doing everything in their power to not embrace the digital revolution. In some ways, I may as well be talking to a lifelong vegan about the nutritional value of a Superdawg Hot Dog and Al's Italian Beef (it's a Chicago thing). However, I believe this is the quickest road to profit.

My editor even thinks I've gone off my rocker and suggested a $5 price. However, as Trent Reznor recently found out with the Saul Williams produced record, $5 may be a bit too much. [No offense to Sal, but he is no Axl - ed] We have an entire generation of people who feel music should be free and even if they are wrong, you must play into what the market will allow and based on my observations, $3 is the magic number. My theory is that you want to get your customers in the habit of paying for music and pricing downloads too high, will frustrate them. Make it affordable so that you build trust and an ongoing relationship. I sincerely believe Universal could acquire 2 million downloads at $3 a pop in a very short period of time. Since they've cut out the middleman, processing packaging, etc this would largely be pure profit. Most importantly, there would be rampant anticipation since the album had not leaked.
Total Revenue: $6 million

Option #2 ?The Box Set
There will always be those who crave and will want the physical product. This is inevitable. The key is to provide them with the ultimate product. Think of being a car salesman and having a wide range of lines and vehicles. While I believe music in the future should be affordable, cheap and available in bulk, the key will be to market to the select die-hard fans. Radiohead did this with an $80 box set that included not just a physical CD, but a second CD of outtakes, a vinyl copy of the album and extensive packaging. For Guns N' Roses, the contents of this package could be exhaustive and maddening at the same time. Considering that it's taken years to bring 'Chinese Democracy' to fruition, I doubt Axl Rose would be willing to put alternate versions of songs out there. However, why not include a full concert DVD from the last tour? How about a short book written by Del James about the "Making of 'Chinese Democracy'"? Why not throw in a vintage Guns N' Roses concert on DVD to lure the fans to buying the more expensive set (although I believe this is highly unlikely).

The options are limitless; Include a concert ticket with every box purchase, offer an exclusive code that gives you access to a Pay Per View screening where Axl would give his first sit down interview, follow the interview with a live performance of the entire album. A Pay Per View could pull in a separate stream of income and it would allow Axl and the rest of the band to present the album they want. They wouldn't have to abide by the rules of MTV, NBC, of E!; they could write the book themselves. Promote it as a once in a lifetime event where Axl is interviewed by someone he knows, respects and is comfortable with. Allow him to dictate the proceedings as he needs to because he's the artist and the gestation of this album has been immense and he deserves a platform to showcase his art the way he wants. Not to mention, but the windfall from just 100,000 potential buying customers would add to the coffers.

The moral of my story is that if they deliver a stellar and unique package, aside from a potential Pay Per View, the fanatics will buy it. The revenue from a special box could reign in more money than a stand alone CD release. Include the CD, a DVD, a book, a reproduction of the original 'Appetite' album cover and a few other bonus items and a set like this could retail for approximately $65. Limit worldwide distribution of these boxes to 125,000. The total gross for this package would be $8,125,000.00 and if the $14 million budget for 'Chinese Democracy' is true, it immediately puts Universal in the black and this would potentially be before a Pay Per View or physical CD release or even a tour. Total Revenue Combined from Options #1 and #2: $14,125,000.00

#3-The Physical CD
Once you get the download out of the way, send the album to stores. Include a live DVD of the entire album from the Pay Per View show, exclusive web content and assorted contests of vintage Guns N' Roses items and access to potential future live shows. This will make even those who bought the pricey box set want to buy it again. Once again, don't inflate the cost, make it affordable. When the 'Greatest Hits '87-'94' was released in 2004, most retailers were selling it at $7.99 and I believe this was one of the prime reasons it has continued to sell well over time.

These three options combined should easily put Universal back in black, give Axl Rose the drive to bring these songs to the world, get back on the road and will eventually open up the chances for more music in the not too distant future (Sebastian Bach alludes to the potential of two more albums in under three-years).

'Chinese Democracy' has been a decade plus in the making and despite what the cynics say, there are millions who want?no scratch that?NEED to hear this album and the key to its success is to deliver it to the masses in an favorable manner which will appeal to not just the longing and patient fans, but to the casual listener as well. Promotion should be a no brainer as any news magazine on television or in print would kill for an exclusive interview. However, I believe the album will sell itself, Universal just needs to think outside of the box and unleash it on a world that is beyond ready for it. The reason that 'Appetite For Destruction' sold sixteen-million records is because of its unabashed honesty. It cemented the band into an entire generation's consciousness. There are millions of lost souls out there looking for that next record that will open new worlds to them and help them seek refuge from a world that is at times far too real for our own liking. But albums like 'Appetite For Destruction', 'Use Your Illusion' and hopefully 'Chinese Democracy' help you deal with your grief, provide a ray of light and reminds us that the fight that life can be is worth fighting.


A broken heart provides the spark for my determination
-"Better"

Source: Antimusic

Awesome article, hope at least one of those things happen for real. :)

Thanks for posting!

obrigado!!  jajaj  thanks !

Nice article : ok: - I think the writing is on the wall, there is too much whispering in corners and dark nods and hints. Finally the album the album is ready to drop and I really can't see why it wont happen before 2009 - its only fucking January 2008 - this is the year :beer:

Interesting ideas.

One problem though, he suggests adding some vintage merchandise.

Why would they include anything having to do with the old band? It makes no sense....





/jarmo

Well, so far I'm yet to hear " People will hear music this year " or " Tenative release date is March 6th" or see a tour titled the "Chinese Democracy Tour"


So, I guess things are looking up :confused:

Actually it makes perfect sense since the initial response by non fanatics like us is going to be cool GNR is back! With out knowing that this is a different Gun N Roses. It will make believers out of those who don't know.

I don't have the slightest interrest in any vintage GNR material when i'm buying CD.. if there was some kind list where i could choose what kind of bonus material i'd like to buy i'd buy everything that had stuff to do with the current band.. not any old stuff

So, you see a new cd that says Guns N' Roses and you only think "oh cool, GN'R is back" when you open the box to see an AFD poster or DVD of a show from 1988?

That stuff belongs with Greatest Hits.




/jarmo

I agree with you about vintage merchandise but it would be kind of cool to bridge the gap from the old to the new in some way, so when people do open the CD and go 'WTF' who are these people, its kind of explained for them. I guess this could be done in some sort of documentary if it was included with the CD

Well, first off, I've gotta say that the article was very well written IMO.

As for including "vintage" swag, perhaps an old tour shirt from the '02 tour, or the Vegas 2001 shirt. Or like they did with the Makin' Fuckin' Videos I and II - include a shirt, with a design that's been used before, but have a different back print.

With the ChiDem boxset, the shirt could be something from the 2006/7 tour shirts, but on the back, something Axl came up with. Like MFV was "Make a fucking fashion statement (http://www.troccolitm.com/fashion.html?1166355072156) or when they had to start putting the parental advisory labels on the CD's, a shirt was produce with a jumbo version of the sticker that can be commonly found on TSI? (http://www.troccolitm.com/shirtwarning.html?1186537240656) something like "This Shirt was in the Chinese Democracy Boxset" and on the back have it say "So get on board or fuck off"

Duno, just sounds good to me right now.

The most interesting idea is doing some type of event in which Axl could present the album to the world in the way that he sees fit via an interview by a trusted friend (e.g. Del).  Of course we won't get all the questions answered but it if it makes Axl comfortable, then that is the right method.  With an exclusive concert this could be a real money maker.  I sure hope when the restructuring at Universal/Geffen settles down that they put some very serious effort into working things out with Axl. 

Any way we can persuade the record company to move things along...petitition or the like?

yeah!
I love "get on board or fuck off" they should do a t-shirt with that text.. I'd easily buy 2 shirts right away.. or something like, "support GNR or fuck off", or "buy CD or fuck off"  :hihi: (as i'm laughing i'm fully serious) i just love telling folks to fuck off  ;D

'Box Set Motherfucker'

Digital Downloaders could download a logo to print on their own t-shirt 'Downloading Motherfucker'

Traditional purchases get 'CD Motherfucker!' which naturally fits in with the name of the album.

Then we could all be motherfuckers!

"the heat is on" putting some pressure on the label for a statement.  Need a few more sources to do the same and we are well into a great start on marketing.  It's going to sell by word of mouth.  Don't know if these guys are good or just lucky.

Exactly, instead of "vintage merchandise" they should do a new t-shirt or something that would only be available in a box set, something exclusive that you can't get anywhere else. The key to marketing the band as it is now, I think, is to have everything focused on the guys who are in the band now. Stop the old merchandise on their web store etc because it only confuses the non hardcore fans.

I love these ideas.

ditto!  This is chinese democracy this is Guns N Roses now.


No it doesn't. those who buy the box set would know better.

I agree with Jarmo, stuff from the old lineup would be largely inappropriate.

I think exclusive interviews would be cool, but I'd prefer small segments and vignettes on the new members. Something like "Hey I'm Bumblefoot...I've worked on this before I was in with Guns and my favorite tour memory is..." and just show each member doing his own thing, getting a little face time. Nothing huge, but it definitely would give a new generation their "Patience" type moment.

Then all of that build up to an interview with Big Red. Everyone loves Axl's interviews. He has great stories and when asked the right things by the right people, he is incredibly insightful and wise. That'd be awesome methinks.

IMO, digital is the best way to go. But as we all know the music biz is too stubborn/stoopid to go this route. Maybe I'll be surprised...but I doubt it.

completely agree.  besides I'd rather see a show from the 06-07 tour  :)

He should announce it on MTV. Even though I hate it, plenty of people watch it and make a deal where in every major retailer's advertisement(walmart, target, best buy) they announce they have the new Guns CD.

This is the first article I have seen that offered some suggestions instead of just bitching! I salute this author. He rocks. And actually I think all his ideas are very good and hope Universal listens. As for the vintage stuff - it could just be old merch with no pics of anyone or an old t-shirt or something that doesn't allude to the old members. I don't think it's a bad idea but I guess if you look at it from the standpoint of the younger crowd< I suppose they wouldn't be too interested in previous band members. I just think they could include vintage and keep it generic so as to not allude to the previous members.

Thanks so much for posting that! It was a breath of fresh air!

Now I would love to have some "vintage" mechandise with it, FOR SURE!
But in reality, it would be disrespectful to the new members. That's not how you promote a "New GN'R" with things concerning the old band. It would be counter productive.... but wait, this is GN'R we're talking about.  hmmm, whatever is has with it, I'll buy it.

heavy, persistent viral marketing starts now!  : ok:

Hell, an old show, and maybe some reproduction merchandise seem like a great ideal to me for a box set. It could reawaken a lot of GnR fans from days gone by.

This is GnR, whereas, a few members have come and gone, the music is consistent; the legacy continues. It isn't disrespectful to anyone, applying that logic, it would also be disrespectful to listen to anything other than leaks or live boots.

It's a great article. I have to agree with the author regarding including vintage material. I think a LOT of people would
be interested in having vintage merchandise from the old band. I think you can sort of make it a bridge for the new
GNR. I think it would appease the various fanbases such as "classic GNR fans like myself",  new GNR fans, and casual fans.
It would have to be marketed though in such a way that the you bridge the various chapters of GNR.

I still don't get it.  ???

So you see a box in the store that says GUNS N' ROSES CHINESE DEMOCRACY and you think "oh, GN'R is back. No, I don't want it".

But then you read on the back that it "includes a exclusive Appetite For Destruction poster" and you'd be ready to buy the box?


I've got some of these special edition albums and I don't think any of them ave anything old in them.

U2 put out a special edition of the Joshua Tree and it had a DVD from the JT tour. Makes sense.

Now if they had put that DVD in the How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb, it wouldn't have made sense.



/jarmo

I think the vintage merchandise should be something for when every the put out remastered Cd of the back catalog.

Dude, if I wanted 'vintage merchandise from the old band', I'd check on ebay.
I agree with Jim Bob and Jarmo: they've already released old stuff- Welcome to the videos and Greatest Hits... They've already kinda buried the past with those releases and now we need something fresh. It would make more sense if they put out an exclusive live DVD from 2006 or 2007 along with Chinese Democracy.

If there's a box set there shouldn't be anything to do with the old band.  This should be all about the current lineup, guys like Dizzy, Robin, Tommy, and Richard have poured years of hard work into this, it should be about them, not people who quit the band 10+ years ago

Other than that, I like this guy's ideas.  They need to get the music to as wide of an audience as humanly possible while still making money

That is kind of antithetical to what a box set is. Who releases a box that doesn't contain old stuff?

I don't think people are talking box set like all the albums.  More like what Radiohead did, which was the album on vinyl and on CD with fancy lyric and artwork books.  Basically a deluxe version of the album for hardcore fans

Read what Jarmo said in another thread on here,

Since when is Gnr like any other band?

I think Axl and the rest of the band are set on creating an image for themselves,
will they live up to the old line up?
Dont know, dont care, thats in the past,

in the present they should be just focusing on chinese democracy etc,
I mean, its like  having a dvd in the boxset from leeds in 02/rio whatever,
it has buckethead in it, but Would that be a smart thing to do, having a disc with a former gnr member?
Hes solos were better then any other former /present member, esp nightrain/kohd, but would it be a smart move?
No, its like saying a huge fuck you to ron richard and robin,

Fuck the old, on with the new, its the only way that gnr can make a fresh clean start when they release chinese democracy.
Axl wont want any old members tied in with a project he has , for the most part, been working soley on , he wont want slash or any members  to be mistaken for being on chinese democracy, and having vintage dvds/music in a boxset will confuse the general public...

Because Jarmo

According to Axl, Guns N Roses is an evolving band of revolving door members.

So Guns N Roses by that logic can't really be seperated into new,old etc etc.

By Acknowledging there is an old band, U are kind of saying the new band isn't Guns N Roses because even though Slash etc arent in the band anymore, that is still apart of GNR's legacy which is why they still sale AFD shirts and throws,clocks and everything else in the world on GNR's store. Its why they play AFD live and old songs. Because GNR is suppose to be one continous band and not necessarily a brand new band.

U put some older live stuff in there for people who are just making the transition from old to new and it gives them something they want and will introduce them to the new band.



The boxset was my idea and fuckers ripped my idea and said it sucked. but oh well, it doesn't suck and this guy has great ideas.

Axl should hire him.

IF it was the new band's version of AFD, it would make sense. But its too obvious its two different bands with the same name, there's no need to remind people like the die-hard fans (who would buy this box) that. We all know well. And, obviously, the name Guns N' Roses itself connect to the past.

But there's a lot of cool ideas there. The pay per view show to be included as a dvd in the normal CD would be KILLER! Only the new songs performed live... That I would for sure pay to have it aside from the box package. :D

calling the band Guns N Roses makes no sense either...

Could not have said it better; It is disrepectful of GnR(inclusive) to dismiss the works of previous members. If one wishes to dismiss the previous stuff, ...

 well, I'll leave it at that.

It's not about dismissing their work.  It's about the fact that they had nothing to do with Chinese Democracy.  The attention should be on the people who made the album that's being released.  There have been countless bands that have released albums with different members, I can't think of one that released a new album that celebrated the former members which in effect takes attention away from the people who actually made the album.  It's disrespectful to Robin, Dizzy, Tommy, and Fortus, people who have poured years of work into this album, for the sake of selling more records by celebrating people who have NOTHING to do with the songs on the new album

I thought we were "talking" about a box set; not CD.

There you go, thinking again.

I agree...Slash and Duff have not been in the band for over 10 years, Steven its been 18 years...Izzy has been out of the band since 1991..with the exception of some  gigs here and there.....it makes ZERO sense to include anything with them playing on it....if Universal wanted to include some bonus material of some classic songs they have the past 2 years of concerts to choose from with the new band playing the hell out of those songs...why not use one of the Hammerstein shows from 2006? or even some of the festivals from the summer of 2006?? Using any of the old members is disrepectful to Axl and the new members for all the work that has been put into this record over the years....and I say "new" members but most of the band have been in the picture since the late 90's/early 00's with the exception of BBF and Frank...

great post and a good read i REALLY like number 2 :yes:



Anything that would happen thats anywhere close to those lines mentioned in the thread post would totally make my year and my fill a huge hole in my brain that is hungry for CHINESE!

:peace:

Give me a few more drinks, and rote memory will take over.

I heard you were released in a box set back in the 70's, any truth to that?

That was just the Coroner's wishful thinking.

We arent talkin about CD


The old members get no credit for CHinese Democracy if a video, Say Ritz88 or Chicago 92 OR HOW BOUT THAT 3 HOUR PLUS SHOW FROM LA that is now legendary.


Put that IN A BOXSET!

If Axl were even smarter, Do the PPV thing, That truly is awesome. Even if 50,000 buy it for 30 bucks, thats over a million bucks.



The boxset is a tribute to the fans

U can't have a tribute to the fans without including works from your entire history, so a DVD of the old band wouldn't take away from the new band. It would just show the changing of the guard.

DVD(s) of the new shit would be killer.

and stinky too .

Why not?  I think he's made no secret he holds everything they've done in high regards...  I don't think you can fairly rule ANYTHING out with him!!!

I'm propably a very boring fan: I don't need toys or posters, I don't need DVD:s, I don't need live internet-shit. I have nothing against those things, fine with me, just don't rub it into my face.

I only need a normal cd, 12-16 new GNR-songs.

I think  you missed understood the original post. The article was offering ideas to release CD! After the digital Download ran it's course, he suggested releasing a box set of CD for the fans that want a physical product. Therefore this "boxset" would be strictly about CD, according to the author's ideas, and not a history of the band. He just threw in the vintage idea because Radiohead did that. I can see what you are saying if they were to release a box set that was spanning the career of GNR or like "GNR 86-200?" but since this would be a release for CD, the vintage stuff doesn't really belong.

^ Agreed. It's more like a special package, not a history box. Also, as I said earlier, the target for this box would be the fan base and we don't need any reminder to connect both eras of the band.

With so many years of waiting, how can a fan wouldn't be hungry for NEW material instead of just old shit that you have already acess online?

An $80 box set? I don't get it-it's all about the first single, whether it takes off-and a pay per interview would be silly just to give it to the die hard fand who would buy a box set-Axl has an interesting story to tell about the last ten years, why would he give the first interview on pay per view? Rolling Stone, Blender, Entertainment Weekly all would most likely feature his interviews, and this should be done before the album comes out-an interview would wind up on you tube the next day anyway-they do not need to market to the people on this board to sell records

if there was some kind of vintage stuff i'd only be interrested if itr was like some folks here are saying, like a way to introduce how the band members today became bandmembers.. like if there are some audition tapes from when they got maybe fortus and stuff like that.. filmed rehearsals etc.


but not from an old show that belongs to GH stuff like Jarmo said. like whenever they are introduced to the RnRHoF they can release the inglewood show (that the 3+ hour gig right?) on DVD or something : ok:

I think D was on the same wave length as me. You need to have something to bridge that gap.
Ultimately though, he just needs to release this album once and for all. The guy is still one of
the GREATEST rock singers of all-time!!! 

something like that re-recorded AFD?

You apparently didn't understand the article in that case.  ???

It's all about Chinese Democracy and how they could put it out in different forms.

The CD box set mentioned in the article is supposed to be something similar to what Radiohead did with their latest album.

Quoting Wikipedia: It contains the album on CD and two 12" heavyweight 45 rpm vinyl records with artwork and lyric booklets. The box includes a second enhanced CD which contains 8 additional tracks, as well as digital photos and artwork. The overall set is packaged in a hardcover book and slipcase. The "discbox", priced at ?40 (approx. US$80), also includes the MP3 download.




/jarmo

They are going to release a bottle of Nightrain with CD.  See defination of vintage:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vintage

vin?tage      /ˈvɪntɪdʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vin-tij] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, adjective, verb, -taged, -tag?ing.
?noun 1. the wine from a particular harvest or crop. 
2. the annual produce of the grape harvest, esp. with reference to the wine obtained. 
3. an exceptionally fine wine from the crop of a good year. 
4. the time of gathering grapes, or of winemaking. 
5. the act or process of producing wine; winemaking


 :hihi:

Just to point it out, there's an another great article by this writer about the Illusions:

http://the-screen-door.blogspot.com/2007/12/guns-n-roses-revolutionary-illusions.html

Its also a great read. : ok:

Edited: I found out that this guy wrote that excellent review of Chicago 06 gig:

http://the-screen-door.blogspot.com/2006/12/guns-n-roses-appetite-of-determination.html

Considering the new GNR has been around for awhile, they could go back a little bit and come up with some cool stuff.

The boxset could include any or all of the following:

The CD version.  With maybe a bonus track or two (demo versions more than likely considering GNR bsides of the past...or a live version of Sailing Away)

A DVD or two.  A concert DVD could include any or all of the following (if they exist)...the Vegas New Year's Concert...Rock in Rio...the 02 tour...the 06 Tour...Inland Invasion.

A T-shirt.  Either a concert tour shirt from the 02 or 06 tours...or even an exclusively made shirt for the box set and CD release.

A Program or Poster.  From either the 02 or 06 tour.  Or a new exclusive one for the set.

An upcoming concert ticket voucher.

A vinyl version of the album.  So all us audiophiles can listen to the album in its full production glory (to see why it took 14 years) and not compressed so it sounds leveled off like a Fall Out Boy album.

And maybe any of the following tidbits:  a Hat, a Keychain, a map to China, a Lighter, an ipod Case, a Bandana,  a Watch, Exclusive Ringtones, or a flurry of exclusive downloads for our cellphones or computers.

what ever rout they go i hope they do the PPV thing for sure : ok: i think that would get alot of atension and would be a good way for the fans to see whats up and down within the band today not to mention it being very entertainning in adition to being informative :yes:


:peace:

You guys may string me up for saying this, but I would like them to include the AFD Re-Do with the new band.

I honestly hope the label has enough faith in this project and GNR fans to just do a standard CD release. Although their faith in GNR fans to actually purchase it might be misplaced now that I think about it.

You shouldn't be strung up for saying that. I'd love to hear it. The version from all those years ago wouldn't do it for me though, I'd want to hear a version with Frank, bbf and Richard on it.

I like the idea of the DVD. Maybe not full concerts, althought that'd be great. Maybe a 'Best of' from the tours since 2000 or something like that? The best performances of the songs from over the past 8 years. A clip or two from HOB 01, TWAT from Hammerstein '06, Nice Boys from Australia from '07, etc.

Special moments and rarities. Maybe some from the acoustic gigs? Bonus DVD entitled 'Acoustic Best of'

snap. I'd love the clips of the new songs live (from omg to better) and rare covers like back in the uk sway I feel good, Godzilla, etc


No he shouldn't be strung up. And everyone we're hearing on the album is a part of chinese democracy.
But I'd rather hear the re do on another occasion that this.

Most of the market to the big companies is actually those between 12-17 YO :P

Things to come with CD like a keyholder/stickers or something + a very sexy packaging and things would maybe be a good but silly idea.

if they throw in a DVD i think they should do it in the format that KISSology is in which is basically what cotis said but also include the ever so popular MTV aperance on the VMA (i know i know but i kinda liked all the hype that came with it its one of my fondness memories) and maybe some interviews on there as well.


just don't have Axl meets the phantom of the opera on there, might not sell :no:


(KISS fans know what i mean :hihi:)


:peace

To be honest, I wouldn't hate it if it includes a GNR (of chinese democracy era, of course) comic book.  Or even anime :P

sexy as in pics with the band joined by a bunch of suicide girls/playboy playmates? hell yeah!

Hello GNR Fanatics and Fellow Fans...

I wrote the article and appreciate any and all feedback.

In regards to the mention of putting a vintage concert in an elaborate box, it was merely mentioned as a way to entice the people at Universal. I didn't state it as a definitive because I knew it was highly unlikely. Also, while I am all for having items that showcase only the new GNR, if it were to be added, it would be done to get people who wouldn't otherwise buy this album, possibly buy it.

I wasn't a fan of the new GNR, didn't care as to whether it was a success or not, but then I saw them live;

http://the-screen-door.blogspot.com/2008/01/guns-n-roses-appetite-of-determination.html

...and I was transformed. There are numerous people who haven't paid attention to the group without it's original members and I was merely thinking out of the box to find a resolution to ensure that the widest margin of people would be exposed to the album...that's all.

xT
http://the-screen-door.blogspot.com/
tonykblog.com

 I think I've said some of these suggestions before?  Hmmm I did!

Re: GNR Finish CD?  on: January 23, 2008, 09:11:53 AM 
How about a stadium type show with a pay per view deal and a DVD (The making Of)/CD release) following immediately?

1- Digital download of a single.

2- Regular cd

3- Limited edition package with regular cd and a second bonus dvd documentary from the beginning of the recording 
    to the end result, tour footage, questions and answers we've been playing guessing games with for the last ten
    years.

Yeah, I know most bands and artists are doing this already, but it seems at least to me, the most realistic way that it
may go. Hey they could include a monogrammed signed pass by the band with a barcode on it. That way you bring it to a show, and you get in for free, j/k of course.

Not like that, but appealing. For example how Coca Cola made their Bottles/logo etc more appealing. You get the idea.

I just wan't the music, but I think things like additional things (or merch if you will) to come with the CD's could increase the sales which is financially beneficial for the companies. Not sure what to expect of Chinese Democracy in how it's released.

I know Pink did release a album like that, not that adults are too fond of things like that but it can help companies a little.

One thing is for sure, things will change.
Maybe we start to get additional things from the recordstores when we buy CD's. Like clothing articles, key-rings, fake tats, guitar picks...

On one side it's very exiting times, since many companies will cease the opportunity to be creative :peace:
How about free tickets to a GunsN'Roses film on the nearest cinema? It will be intresting to see how the industri cope.

no i guess a good thing is worth waiting for.

It's going to happen. Sooner or later!... hopefully before I die!!!!!!!!!!

This guy had some great ideas.  I liked his creativity.  He sounds like someone from this forum. If there is one live DVD that needs to be officially released and mastered it would be the 1988 live at the Ritz, but you don't want that out at the same time as Chinese Democracy.

if i don't beat ya there lol.dag nab it lol
have hope not dope lol
you know we have time.

It's not as if GNR wasn't ready yet.
I'm still not 'waiting' tho.


def not.

see the 10th~12th post before yours.  he's a board member now. :D
modeled on radiohead, the no release until two million downloads secured approach is quite novel.  :yes:

Welcome to the greatest and most dysfunctional forum on the planet!  Great article and look forward to discussing GNR with you in the future.   : ok:

I'd like to take some credit for the "ransom" release idea.  I'm gonna bet this kind of idea was dismissed immediately unfortunately.  A lot of folks on the fence, even die-hard fans, might perceive an action like that as a slap in the face.  I think a lot of folks already feel like Axl's been willfully holding the album back.  I don't agree with that opinion, but I think it's what the majority out there think. 

Glad the guy transformed into a GN'R fan....antimusic finally feels our pain of the last decade!!

In regards to the ransom idea...it could work a few ideas.

Have a webpage that tracks the # of downloads...but that will NEVER happen on Universal's watch because if the download idea takes off they'll want to maximize it before unleashing the album.

On the other hand, if they keep the "magic number" internal and don't make a press release, it would allow them to make their $$$ back and hopefully get us this album sooner than later.

xT

Seriously, how easy is that?  All these years the damn record companies could have had kiosks set up in every mall, record store, food court, GNR concert!, anywhere and everywhere.  All it would have to say is:  Save Chinese Democracy.  All folks would have to do is slide their credit card through, give 10 bucks to the cause...and with money rolling in while the band was perfecting the music, the record company would have had at least some money coming in and the ability to earn more off the interest in the meantime. 

Yes, I know a lot of folks have stopped waiting, and the record company feels people will be drawn back in with minimal marketing, but I don't think that's true.  Not with the complicated history of GNR.  Over the past decade there have been many folks following the band but unfortunately many just quit waiting and lose interest.  If they had the opportunity to throw in cash to lure the album out (let's face it, usually money talks) perhaps we'd have the album out by now...or perhaps not.  Personally, I think Axl will only release this thing when it's ready and no sooner.  True artists don't live by "company schedule."  Now, though, if the album truly is in the hands of the record company, money will talk!

Look at it this way.  GNR has performed in front of over a million fans in the past 7 years.  You're gonna tell me if the ability to pre-order a copy of the most long-awaited hard rock album of all-time was an option, people wouldn't have taken it?  Hell no!  I'd have ordered it going into the concert, and twice on the way out!  Now, in true short-sighted business fashion, the company probably wants to promote the album on the cheap.  F'ing idiots.

btw, great articles at antimusic.com.   :beer:

I think that's the idea behind most of the bonus stuff they package with albums these days. ;)

On a more serious note, it all depends who you are trying to get to buy the album.



We know most hardcore fans will buy it just because it's the new GN'R album. They'll probably buy the best version available regardless of what's in it.

But how do you get the casual fans to buy it? I'm not sure they'd be ready to spend more than the price of a regular cd.

How do you get them to buy the regular CD for $10?

As you mentioned, you give the buyers something extra. Like a bonus DVD or something.

But you still have people thinking "I don't need a bonus DVD, I just want the music and I can get it for free".....






/jarmo

I think a lot of times we live in a parallell GNR universe and we just automatically assume that the entire world knows what we know about GNR


I would talk about GNR endlessly at work for instance and was absolutely shocked how many people had no clue that Guns N Roses were still a band and that Axl had new musicians in the band.



Thats kind of my point with the boxset.

U include a Vintage DVD of the old band for those who have yet to truly understand that there is a new band. U have an exclusive DVD with Axl being interviewed giving his side of the breakup, the recording process, a little info on how these songs came together etc. and it gives people a better understanding and makes them accept a new band more with Axl's side of the story and why he continued on with the name etc.

D, you make some great points.  At work a couple years back, I was talkin' GNR with this smokin' hot 20 year old...she seriously thought Axl Rose was dead. 

To Jarmo's point.  How do you get people to pay $10 for something they'll eventually get for free?  Timing!!!!  It's all about timing.  Sell the product when folks are in a party atmosphere like a concert...or when they are into a decade-long wait for an album!  Make it available in conjunction with some sort of tv program or show.  Empower the consumer.  With a ransom release.  You heard it right here first, I'm coining the phrase "Ransom Release."  The music fan now has the power to pry the music free.  Once x amount of dollars go to the record company, the music is released.  That, along with a real crackdown on music theft on-line, along with fake/altered copies on file-sharing networks, yeah, that would be a start.   :beer:

The ransom idea has actually worked pretty well in the past for bootleggers who wanted, say, $1000 to release a particularly sought after recording. Fans who are willing to spend hundreds of dollars on bootlegs would definitely be willing to spend hundreds of dollars to release Chinese Democracy. I think this would generate a lot of resentment towards the label and Axl though, especially after the fans have already been fucked over so badly for the past 10 years or so.

But it's a new album, not looking back to something that was.

If they included a live DVD with Chinese Democracy, it should be the band that's gonna play the songs live. Not something that was 20 years ago!

If they want to go through the band's history, it can be done without including a live DVD of the old band.





/jarmo

Yep.
 If a general music fan decides to buy a physical cd after hearing the dl version of cd, they don't expect to see the old band stuff with it. someone new to GNR would rather start from afd than rare vintage clips to learn about the band's past.


GH was a slap in the face for both the fans and the artists but it has sold like 7/8 million?
More than that  I'm impressed with the stunning effect of the red glow with a Blue smiley. WoW :o

I agree.  Hardcore fans know and will buy, so the marketing matters little.  Casual fans probably have some knowledge that there are new band members who weren't around in the Appetite/UYI days and, in a lot of cases, they have some disapproval.  Then there is the great mass of music idiocy, who only know Paradise City and SCOM, who only know Slash as a guy in VR, and who will be won over more by marketing and videos than by anything else. 

The casual fans can be won over by the quality of the music, hearing it get good play on both classic rock and modern rock stations, etc.  Some portion of them will come around, just like all of us did.

The mass of idiots will be won over by some jackoff on MTV telling them to like it. 

But neither the casual fans nor the mass of idiots will be won over by an $80 box set.  Hardcore fans might buy it, but it still will not add up to "success."  But I think we're making too much of recouping the supposed $14 million.  If the album did well in the US (say 3 million copies), it would sell at least that many again worldwide.  We think too much in terms of US sales, when as much or more can be sold outside the US.  I'd bet anything that the debate within the company is the following: do we market like crazy, and raise our costs, or do we do little marketing, and risk losses?   

What I'd like to see is fairly simple.  As for marketing, get a single and video out, into rotation on classic and modern rock radio and on vid channels.  Do appearances on MTV to let the kiddies know it's time to throw away their black hair dye and have fun again.  If they want to release it early as a download, that's fine.  Follow this up with an album release and perhaps a limited edition with any of the following: bonus tracks (how about "Oh My God," for those of us who don't want the rest of the crappy End of Days soundtrack?), their first video, some concert footage from the Chinese Democracy World Tour(s).  Charge $10 for the regular, $15 or so for the limited/special edition. 

Or how about this: if people are willing to pay $10 for an album, a lot of that goes to the middle man (your Best Buys and Walmarts).  Why not do an early release that can only be purchased through Universal or GNR's website, say a month before an in-store release.  Cut out the middle-man and collect all the profit.  Or, perhaps better, do an early download (again, a month or two ahead of a hard copy release) with two options:  A cheaper download only option and a full price download with the promise of a hard copy being sent as soon as they're available.

I dunno...I'm no expert and there are a lot of possibilities, but it strikes me that a combination of pretty standard marketing and perhaps an innovative internet release would do just fine. 

The Ransom release strategy is HOW U STOP LEAKS


How come Record labels can't figure this out?


2 million may be a little excessive but make it 1 million.


1 million downloads for 3 dollars and the digital download gets released.

A week after the album hits the 1 million download it is released on CD.

for 3 dollars, to make sure CD hit the 1 million mark, Hell, Id buy 10 copies.

D, great post.  I also like Freedom's idea on cutting out the middleman once the cd is physically available.

About the ransom release strategy, D gets it.  That's how you stop leaks and make sure the money goes to the record company.  No matter what strategy is used apart from a ransom release, the second the album is released it will be reproduced ad infinitum and had for free by people who don't think they have to pay for music.  Why wouldn't the record companies want to guarantee their investment is returned before that crap even starts? 

Also, what better way to generate a buzz.  If people want to be negative, so what?  If people aren't interested, so be it...but I think they will be.  The new music in demo form makes other finished music by other bands sound like shit.  Imagine how incredible the final versions will be...it's just insane!   

I feel like the board is working together for a great push.  All we need is someone to be sold on the "ransom" and we may have it soon.  What if a record company takes advice from a forum and it proves successful.  Wow.

Your know SG good idea can come from anywhere. Let's just hope that people look past their pride and squabbles and take a good look at things.

Anyway, getting people to know about GNR or learn how awesome the new lineup is isn't going to happen overnight. While I think there are a lot of good ideas floating about, I think it all comes down to getting the record out, getting out on tour, and getting some good reviews. It takes time to build a client list or portfolio and building respect for a band is really no different, imo.

I like the feel of things. It seems like as a board we're finally looking ahead instead of being caught up in the past. Here's hoping for whats next.  :beer:

I mentioned a ransom release years ago and got no response...it is a crazy idea, but it's so crazy, it just might work.

Personally, I don't care how they release the music, I am a hardcore fan who will have his wife video-tape my purchase of the album!  Yes, it will be that joyous an event.  It will remind me of the time I woke my wife who was 7 months pregnant at the time, to come downstairs and take a picture of me in front of the tv when Syracuse won the 2003 NCAA basketball championship!  We still have a good laugh about that.   :D

What about a dual layer disc?  DVD on one side, CD on the other side.

The DVD side could have some live footage from some of the previous shows.  With all the dates that they've played so far I'm sure it would be trivial to put together 3-4 songs onto the DVD side, and then use THOSE as a teaser for a potential live DVD.

The live tracks are an enticement to have people purchase Chi Dem on CD.  The DVD side will then potentially spur demand for a live DVD.  win/win.

thats not a bad idea, hopefully people would buy the dvd/cd then caus it has some good footage on it

bu then how would you package it,
alot of people are wanting like proper cd covers etc, would it be packaged in a dvd cover case?
no point having 2 cases if its just the one disc,

fuck all this is too hard, just release the fucker on cd and promote the hell out of it until everyone is sick of the cd

Just one disc, but with a little sticker on the case indicating the bonus content...   Franz Ferdinand did something somewhat similar. 

Personally, I think Axl should make Black Frog a public company [stock and all that stuff] so people can invest into it and use it as his own label to release various stuff.

Something tells me that all these ideas will fall on deaf ears.  Axl is an artist, not a businessman.  I could probably guarantee the financial side is one huge headache for Axl.  I do like Halfway Famous's idea though.  I'd throw some bucks Axl's way...beyond 3 concerts and a bunch of concert tees since '02.  :yes:

There's always an e-mail blitz on Universal demanding Chinese Democracy. GNR fans are good at that 8)

The proposed live DVD should be the first Wembley concert of 2006...blinding show with lots of new songs, great new covers we've never heard GnR do before (Stones, Rod Stewart), and the amazing event of Axl announcing the acoustic show later that night and reading out names of ticket winners.  Then have a couple of songs as a bonus from the Cuckoo Club gig and there you have it - a great indication of what GnR are these days.   Am sure there are other great gigs from the tour to choose from and release - the atmosphere at the first Hammerstein must have been electric - that would also be great.  (And could include clips of some of the short interviews I recall fans in the queue doing around those gigs.)

Lots of interesting ideas coming forward though - wouldnt be surprised if there are record companies using forums on a daily basis these days as marketing tools and "think tanks" !  They really need to pull their heads out of the sand and move forward without delay.  I can see a lot of bands/musicians adopting similar idea to those addressed here (eg a Radiohead) due to the current state of the industry/advance of new media etc.

The ticket idea is a gooden, why not have a series of one-off shows in various countries/states, with a pair of "golden tickets" being placed inside CD, the winners get invited to a show in the country its won in. Would be really fantastic if it was in small clubs that only hold about 2-300 people....

For personal reasons I hope the footage of the fans lined up outside the Hammerstein has long since been destroyed. That first night would make for a great release though.

As far as the record company making their money back, I don't think that's the issue.  If it was the issue they would have FORCED a release years ago.  The only way for them to recoup their losses is to actually release a record, right?  Or am I missing something?

This whole discussion is so tiresome.  GNR & Axl Rose have long been my favorite band and singer EVER - and I feel like for 10 years the air is slowly being let out of the balloon....... not sure what's left at this point.

I really like the Ransom Release Idea posted by D although:

1. I'd want a refund if the release didn't take place (incl if it was leaked)
2. They would commit to a traditional release if the download figure was met (they could factor this into the numbers)
3. It would be cool if you could use the download contribution to get discount off the trad release.
4. A tracklisting or some evidence of the album is made available. This way when it is released we know we're getting what we've contributed to!
5. There's some kind of PR from record company to try to help achieve the required no. of downloads.

P.S. I wouldn't call it 'Ransom Release' either. there's something not quite right about the word 'Ransom'!

Maybe someone could create a mock up of what the website would look like? (I would but have zero programming skills!)

they should def do some nutty things for this release.  DVD of hammerstein would be sick.  agree that they shouldn't have much to do with the old band recordings/concerts.  if anything, maybe the demos that were recorded after the illusions as the old band started to officially break apart - get zakk wyldes recordings, buckets stuff... but that is prob a huge headache contract wise.

a free t shirt would be cool or some kind of physical take away.

promotion is $$ though - and i'm getting the vibe that the record company doesn't want to spend another dime on this.

They should use Axl's contacts with the Grand Theft Auto software company and drop a couple of tracks on one of the virtual 'Radio Stations'. Maybe Axl can be that DJ again? I believe the new GTA4 is out in April on the Xbox 360. Hows that for a nutty thing to do?

I think 2 million dl will be easily secured. especially when at a low set price.
the market is worldwide. GNR has fans worldwide.

and there're billions of potential fans.
I donno how much the internet is popularized in china but if it is, I bet the title alone interests chinese youths.

Good post!!!!! I cant beleive that people still fall for all this BS. Its not Axl's fault if the record Co. was this stupid to "loan" him all this money for the record. If it is truly handed in, which I still highly doubt, than how is not releasing it doing anyone any good? Like business is so good, they can just say "fuck it, rather than at least make 3/4 of the money back on this thing, we will just shelve it and never release it" All the arguments that have been made on this post, and some of them very good, are problems that ALL bands face. But they all seem to figure it out. and no, it does not take a year to do it. People still buy music, just walk into any record store for proof.

Didn't axl mention they were in negotiations? That's not necessarily what trunk assumed.

If it is truly 100% done - there is no reason why we shouldn't see it in 2008. 

Seeing the success of the console game Guitar Hero and the millions of people who have bought the game, i've been thinking it could be used as a good marketing tool for the album.

Inserting a code or game disc with a couple of songs from Chinese Democracy when you buy the album will allow universal to tap into a younger generation of music fans.

They should consider this option.

I have a really crazy idea! Instead of sitting around thinking up these clever ways to market and further delay the record...How about they just fucking release it ASAP!!!

I personally think it is insane to release a record these days based on the model of record releases since the 80's.

Its just outdated and dumb.


Do the ransom release. It cannot leak on the internet if u do that.



If a month has went by and u see it isn't gonna come close to the million, u compromise but it still stops the leak.


U then Release the album,boxset etc

I must be stupid or i'm really smart :hihi:



why would a "ransom release" stop leaks?

it's more clever to do a pre sale system online.

and don't forget there is 3 cds, the record company doesn't
need to sell 15 billions of chinese democracy to make money.

I don't think the problem is how to release, but also how much they will get. I mean, isn't possible that Universal wants to get some cash with GN'R tours?

I think Universal should go fuck themselves.

 It was Universal in the first place who signed the cheque on (however) much CD has cost until now. Go hunt those guys, I love how in most businesses the guys who call the shots are never held responsible. If the record company is as smart as they are they should have pulled the plug on this project years ago (if it had no chance to make money) but at that time Axl was the cash cow, so I assume it was like "give him what he wants"

So again who made the decision "give him what he wants"?

Now release it, we are talking about a billion dollar industry not a fuckin hot dog stand on sunset.  Instead of the execs. getting 2 Ferraris as a bonus they get JUST one and Cherokee. I feel so bad for them.

how can the label milk the tours?
I donno maybe it's also about  how to promote who to aim at etc.


because the dl sales doesn't start until they gets a certain amount of preorder.
That might prevent premature leaks.

I dont think CD losing money is going to make or break the record company....we arent talking about BILLIONS of dollars here...yes CD cost somewhere in the range of 15 million dollars...so what?? its going to make a good buck and besides that i have seen record labels piss away alot more money than that on some terrible artists....just look at the state of music the past 10 or so years....

oh i see, thanks

My pleasure, man. ;)


yep like emi's paid 20 millions for an robbie williams album. and if your going with the NYT article, the label's inputs can't be more than  $13 million.

Because no physical copy of CD exists, record plant people or whomever can't steal a copy and stick it online.

2 million people have to buy it before ANYONE can DL it.

So u don't pay your money and then DL it. U have to wait to the number is reached before the DL is reached.


once the DL is reached and people get it, sure then it will be available for free but they will already have 2 million copies of it sold before it can leak.

Then when the CD comes out, u figure at least a million will buy it and thats a way u can recoup your money.

I apologize that my post was not to clear. When I talk of billions of $$ I mean all of Universals business... of course it is not the only thing goin' on.

If this position was posted already, my apologies for the redundancy...

I think a serialized release of GNR material would make a lot of sense for this fan-base.  We are used to being spoon-fed, a song or two at a time.  There is no doubt I would have paid for demos of the songs that were leaked.

From Mark Cuban's blog:

The Album is Dead...

Jan 17th 2008 9:29PM
There once was a time when the release date of an album was exciting. For our favorite artists we knew when the last album came out and when the next album was due. If you loved the artist you bought it. If you didn't you either bought the single or you listened to the album with your friends and then decided.

As the price of records and then CDs increased year by year, spending 20 bucks for a CD became a purchase you needed to be sure of rather than a no brainer or impulse buy.

Then free became an option.
Then aggregating almost unlimited free music on a PC and then an IPOD became easy.

So here we are in 2008 and the only given in the music industry is that CD sales have and will fall. And fall. And fall.

Reading last weeks billboard, something interesting popped out at me. The song Low Rider by Flo Rida sold 467,000 units in a single week. There were 27 digital singles that sold more than 100k units in that week. The obvious trend continues that people are ready, willing and able to buy singles of songs they like.

So the question arises, why don't artists serialize the release of songs ? Why not create a "season" of release of songs, much like the fall TV season and promise fans that Flo Rida is going to release a new single every week or 2 weeks for the next 10 weeks ?

Sure, its not easy to come up with a great song every 2 weeks. But isnt that exactly the same problem you have with an album ? Maybe thats not the "creative process" for certain artists. That's a problem for them.

What we do know is that music fans will spend 99c and that its easier to ask them for 99c a week than it is to get 9.99 at one time from them for 10 songs.

Serializing the release of music also allows for the marketing arms to be in constant touch with sales and radio outlets. Rather than having to initiate marketing plans and hope to reinvigorate the interest in an artist, it becomes a digital tour that never ends.

If an artist commits to release music on a weekly or bi weekly basis, then consumers can make a commitment knowing they are going to get something new and hopefully exciting for their 99c. If the commitment is strong enough its feasible that artists could sell subscriptions to their serialized releases. My guess is that consumers will feel better about subscribing to an artist and getting a song a week or every 2 than dropping 10 dollars at a time for an album.

In reality thats exactly how I buy my music right now. I dont do it by artist. I go to ITunes and I go through the top 10 lists and listen to samples and thats how I determine what music im going to buy.

If there was an option when I bought a single to subscribe to an RSS feed that would send me a sample of that artists song when they released a single, I would add that RSS feed to my browser. Add a 1 click to buy, and chances are Im going to buy a lot more music.


Is this idea so great Im going to start a music label ? No chance. I wouldnt get in the music industry if you paid me. However, as a customer and a buyer of music , if I knew that my favorite artists were releasing music weekly, i would certainly check by every week or listen to what was in my RSS aggregator to see what new stuff they had for me.

Consumser are buying music 1 track at a time. I think people will pay 99c to get a single rather than steal it. I think people would rather steal a full album rather than pay 10 dollars or more for it.

Labels need to make the effort to get artists to deliver in a manner that realizes these perspectives.

The album is dead

Is D taking credit for my release strategy?  My lawyers will be in touch soon D.   :hihi:

HAHAHAHA

No No, I didn't take credit for that.


I guess I post so many amazing well thoughout intelligent posts, that anytime people see one, they automatically assume it was me.

Usually they'd be correct. This is one of the times they are wrong

Not my idea.

Thank you for ceasing and desisting.  I've got the same lawyers as Axl, you're lucky!  :hihi:

Honestly, I can't take credit for the idea of initially offering the digital download first.  My idea was just a straight-forward ransom.  If fans want the album, here's what we need.  If x amount of albums are ordered, the album is released to those folks on a set day.  It guarantees profits for the record companies...if fans want the music badly enough. 

I can see a day where instead of Top 10 CD sales in terms of quantity sold and what week the album's been out...there'd be a Top 10 list of "Fastest Pre-Ordered Albums of the Year."  It only took 3 weeks for Album X to hit the 1 million order mark.  It would build up excitement.  Honestly, traditional album sale methods are destined to fail.

Think outside the box and hold this bitch for ransom Axl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :beer:

 

I know this forum supports respecting others and blah blah-Politically Correct Garbage-blah blah, but are you seriously arguing over an idea that has been repeated hundreds of times that neither of you are being paid for, for an album whose release you have no control over?

 :drool:

Yes Mrbucketfoot...I do believe we've already determined it only takes 3 years of posting frequently on this board to legally declare yourself fucking insane!!!!!!!!!!  I'm well past that point. 

hint, hint...we're joking.   ;)

Just havin' a good time speculating.  It's all in good fun.   :peace:

If somebody mentioned the ransom idea before 2004, then I forfeit my rights.   : ok:

Taking someone else's idea (preferably your staff's), repackaging it (with a few extra little twists here and there) and then presenting as if it were your own is perfectly acceptable business behaviour  :hihi:

I went crazy a few days ago. just check out the thread in the Admin. What the fuck happened to me? :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

I've got to say, I'm a little goggled why the album isn't out or in the process of coming out.

I'm not in the loop but seems like the band has working hard for awhile to get the bitch out. I'm not bashing or want to come off as ungrateful but I just can't imagine the holdup.

Maybe plans are done, who knows.  ???

I'm curious: who the fuck still cares for CD to come out? (except for some die hards on the several GN'R forums)

It is already a joke for several years. We all need to move on and forget about CD.

i dont like the idea dealing with mp3 only releases weeks (months??) before i would be able to buy the real cd or the boxset for my hifi but well, thats how it is these days, thanks to people with the "i dont pay for music"-attitude.

about the bonus coming along: no old band stuff and no dvd whole show here please. old band stuff would probably be a goldmine $$$ but it just doesnt fit with cd......old stuff better could and should be used later like "the history of gnr" or "the early days"- dvd releases (compare Iron Maiden releases!). to the general public watching live dvds is not something they are getting pumped for, its actual a boring thing for them and would be a better option for a release in 3-4 years or so just like a live album. the "working" idea would be to release some special mix dvd:

cd itself has such a long history that exactly this should be concentrated on to make smth positive out of it and what could reach not the harder fans but the general public, too. as axl + new band are not the media friendliest people this could be some marketing aswell (the general public dont care or even know from Rock Am Ring footage, news-clips, etc.) mixing lots of stuff (new band) is the trick.....some 2001/2002 footage (the "new" start), some studio stuff (new members), interviews (new members), some 2006 stuff warm-up shows, festival shows, headliner shows.....they have so much video material that its easy to get some kick-ass mix out of it: for the 2006/07 shows you can start with the warm-up shows: fan interviews, the hype, some minutes of the 1st and last show (izzy!) then switching to some parts of the festival shows. those festivals shows look all very different from the stage, crowd and wheater itself: sunlight in ireland, bottle-throwing at donington, acoutic shows, dont-cry in japan, nice boys in australia, etc. etc.......being mixed correctly (not even whole songs - tough that would rock off course) this could lead not only us but the general public to statements like "wow, you have seen that bonus dvd coming along with cd? thats killer!!"

on the other hand a bonus dvd might only be downloaded by them just like cd, hmmmm

 http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3264556.ece  (http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3264556.ece)

Might help explain the direction the industries going. Take a look at the comments too, do you agree with them?

I really like the idea behind this 'ransom' release.

Its unique in idea, it prevents early leaks, and its almost a way for the record company to safely guage the amount of interest for new GNR material, hence based on the interest they can proceed with physical releases and plan the release of the consecutive new GNR albums thereafter more effectively.

Actually, if Universal was THAT hell bent on album sales, release the album with normal promotion and what not. People will steal it just like every other album.

Then, when GnR goes on tour for it, raise the ticket price $10 and include a copy of CD with your ticket, ala PRINCE.  He sold 3+ million cd's that way.  Axl gets his normal ticket $, and Universal gets $10 per ticket.

PLUS, it guarantees the album to be high on the charts, with 3-4 shows a week @ 15-20,000 people = 45-80,000 copies sold PER WEEK.  Most albums get released, peak, and start declining.  This would mean top 20 sustained.

This was a brilliant article.  If everyone can switch "vintage" "retro" and "old GNR" with "last tour t-shirt", "2007 festival show dvd" or "2001 Vegas dvd", we save about 7 pages of this thread. 

Will be intresting to see how it's done all in all. And yes, we're out of patience :hihi:
You're obviously have registered to the wrong site :P

Maybe, but that isn't what box sets are about. Few people will buy a box that only has recent material.

Theres a brilliant post. Great idea, lets "forget about CD and move on"  To what? another year of touring 20 year old songs? now that is really moving on!!!!!!

Oh, but it's going to be released really soon! ... oh wait, no it's not.

Maybe the point is that you need to move on..... Get a new act.  : ok:





/jarmo

Listen folks, we dont know the time or the hour when axl and his minions will stop harassing us with this album, so we just need not to give up, and reap the rewards of waiting, because if we do just all give up it will show axl the stonger.  ;D

Why would I need to? My act is just fine. I am a HUGE supporter of gnr. New and old. Being a HUGE fan, i am waiting for the NEW band to give me some NEW music. Not really a big expectation is it? Just sick of being told to "get out of the past" when still today, that is really all we have. You can spin it anyway you want, but when I read that hillary duff made 13 million dollars last year, and Madonna made 72 million, it just gets frustrating to hear all these lame excuses why gnr cant make money. Arent these people facing the same "industry problems" that gnr is facing?

Why didn't every other recording artist make as much then?

Edited to add: Funny you bring up Madonna who didn't release a new album in 2007....



/jarmo

I love how people of this forum get in knots when they are told stuff like that.



Yup , that is all we have. For the past decade all it's been is excuses with Axl and Co.

That is the point. NO ALBUM and still made 72 million. All off touring her LATEST album mixed in with the past. If gnr and record Co. really need to make the money fast, rlease it and tour the shit out of it. This formula works! You dont really need to sit in a room for another year and waste more time.

What exactly do you know about the situation?

Let me guess, nothing!


Stop acting like you're some kind of victim here.

If this is too much for you to handle, move on.

It's that easy.

Seems like that's the only thing you guys understand. I have to be that blunt.


If you hate your job, you change your job. If you hate your spouse, you get a divorce.

Or maybe you don't. Instead you keep reminding everybody around you who aren't as miserable as you about how your job sucks and you hate your spouse!

Year after year.....


Instead of moving on with your lives, you stick around spewing the same shit year after year.


How exactly is this helping to improve your life? Does it make you happier?

You come to a GN'R FAN site to post this kind of shit year after year. "Oh poor me, I've waited and waited.  :crying: ".


Move on!





If the day comes when GN'R charges as much for tickets as Madonna, I don't wanna see you complaining. ;)





/jarmo

Doesn't that reinforce his point though?  If she can make that money without even putting out an album...  Seriously GN'R should be a money-making machine.  The $13M should not be that big an obstacle!!!

This is from the Forbes article:

Madonna earned much of that from her landmark Confessions tour, the highest-grossing tour for a female artist, earning $260 million worldwide. During that time-frame, Madonna also enjoyed income from record sales, her deal with hipster retailer of choice H&M and payment from NBC for rights to broadcast her concert performance at London's Wembley Stadium.


It'd be interesting to know how much of it was due to records sales.....




/jarmo

My guess would be $4.18, but that's way more in British Pounds.

What exactly do you know about the situation that I don't? Unless you get some inside info from the GN'R camp , we both only know what has been made public. Did I say I was a victim? Nope , I said it's been excuses with GN'R for YEARS and all we do have ( can you contest this ) is the past , minus some leaks. Just because I say that doesn't make me any less of a GN'R fan than you.  As said before it isn't asking too much for a NEW band to release NEW music....

Very little I'm sure.  But for a brand name like Guns N' Roses, $13M is bus fare.  Surely the record company has enough brain power working for it to figure out how to make this work!!!

Ah, that pesky criteria of what makes a real fan rears its head again:

1. You have no right to talk about GNR unless its approved by GNR.

2. You cannot voice displeasure for anything associated to GNR in any compacity.

3. You are not allowed to wait for any upcoming album. But waiting for upcoming concerts and merchandise is okay. But not Albums. Not under any circumstance.

4. Please ignore the man behind the curtain.

5. You cannot question the honesty of any member, employee, or manager of GNR. Unless they're fired or quit. Then they're all fucking liars.

6. All official statements issued by GNR are completely true. GNR would never, ever try to spin an ugly situation to make themself look better. Not under any circumstance... Ever.

7. All media is full of shit. Unless they have something good to say. 

8. Any critique or questioning of anything related to GNR (post 1996) is hereby considered treason, and you will be labled whiner, victim, complainer, and banished to the lands of free speech, where horrible liberals will eat your children.

9. Thinking for ones self is strickly prohibited. All ideas and opinions will be given out by GNR. Any opinions other than GNR licensed opinions will be destroyed or mocked.

10. GNR/Axl Rose never, ever, ever, makes a bad or dishonest decision. Ever

Breaking any of these rules will result, but not limited to, in immediate revoking of fanhood, memory deletions, and or castration.
 

 :hihi: was it not Axl who in the Paris 1992 concert (might be mistaken) during a mini rant made a comment along the lines of " you can lock 'em up, you can throw away the key, you can kick their teeth in, but you can't f**k with someones freewill" -  the last bit often springs to mind when I read threads in this forum

Am I the one pointing fingers and whining about it?

You whine and complain about it like you know everything.


For some fucking reason, you need to make yet another topic to be about how you're suffering. Poor you!




/jarmo

people are fighting over here a lot hun ???

You're not asking, you're demanding. You know it won't change the situation, so why whining about it? They don't owe you, you didn't pay in advance for this record. You love the band, great. Why would this means that what you want is what they should do - specially when they NEVER did that in the past for anyone?

You can't change the weather, but just try to bitch about it everytime you're talking to your friends. I'm sure they will be pretty happy with this broken record everyday. : ok:

Who is Demanding? As far as that stupid line of "they dont owe me anything" NO SHIT!!!!!! Does anyone really think that? did they owe me AFD? UYI? NO! The problem here is, some people (you) cant decipher btw bithing and wanting something new from your favorite band. The Pittsbugh Steelers are my favorite football team. Do they owe me a superbowl? Hell no! But, as a paying fan, when they suck on a Sunday afternoon, the fans bitch. Such is being in the spotlight. When they won the superbowl 2 years ago, we loved them, when they went 8-8 the year after, we still loved them, were just disappointed. Same with GNR, at least me, I seen and hear what Axl is capable of. HE is the one who said this is a new band. Well, lets hear some NEW music. As someone in the public eye, promising a new album, that never seems to come out, HE puts himself there. Nobody in the enteratinment business owes me anything. And as far as "broken record"? We are as happy with it as the same broken record with excuses why new band cant make new music.

Sarcasm noted. With that,
This is the BEST POST EVER!

I'll call you next time anyone says Axl owes them.

music is not sport but..... likewise, why not bitch after you see the outcome?

You can be a "real fan" all you want.

I don't need to be surrounded by people who take any chance they can to stab the band they "support" in the back.

I don't know how, since none of you ever answered, it helps your lives to constantly whine about this.....


"Release the album, release the album, why isn't there a new album? I want a new album! They should just release it! I want to hear new music! Why don't they just release the album?" etc etc.



Are you one of those special "objective" fans who like to point out how much is wrong with GN'R when in fact none of us know the full story?

Don't you have anything better to spend your time on instead of coming to a fan site and remind us of how much it sucks to be a GN'R fan?

Maybe it sucks for you, maybe it doesn't for some of us. Did you ever think about that?

Why do you feel the need to try to bring everybody else down to your level?

It's not my fault that your life seems somewhat empty since you have to spend time whining about shit you have no control over? Wanna whine about the weather where you are too?


This site isn't meant to be a forum for whiners and people who are unhappy about shit they have no control over. If that concert is too much to handle, go ahead, wave that Freedom Of Speech banner on your way out.



I can't believe I have to keep reminding people of this week after week.

By the way, you can go build a nest in this thread (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=49910.0). Post away there instead of polluting every thread in the GN'R section with your garbage.





/jarmo

Well, Jarmo already said a lot of things about it and also pointed out a specif thread just to do your so needed whine about the new album.

It's just about one thing: if you are a person who only whine and talk about how bad you want something, it gets boring. Try to do that in real life, try to talk like that with your gf. People gets bored with all this whining. We KNOW not everything is going on as planned, nothing is perfect. Is there any need to have always someone to bitch about it in EVERY SINGLE THREAD in the main board when there is indeed a thread just to do that? Seems to me it's more about seeking attention to do such a thing in this section, in every thread.

Don't you think everybody here wants something new? You and the guy who I quoted are not the only ones. But instead of DEMANDING - what do you think it is to ask for something as you have any right to do so? - such a thing over and over, I prefer to just post when I have something to contribute. Or, sometimes, when I see people trying to hijack every thread with this bullshit. The topic has such a great read about the release of the new material you all want so bad, why keep repeating the bitching?

Amuses me how you often put Axl as the guy who wants to fuck with his fans by promising something and not delivering. I don't think he's that sadistic and I do believe he wants the album more than anyone, but in the right way - that implies not only the music itself as he thinks it should be, but also the way we will have it.

It's really off to compare Chinese to a sport team because we're talking about music, creativity and artistic business, not only "let's win" every year. 

Once again Jarmo evades the question asked , nice. Where am I whining? I love Guns N' Roses but I'm stated fucking facts. For the past 10 years we've been given excuses. Have we not? As of now all we have is an amazing collection of work pre- 94 , and a couple leaks for an album that has been promised for years with no avail.

I'm sorry if you don't want to accept the facts , but thats what's going on. It's not opinion , its a FACT.

If you want do go into a mindless child like argument by making sarcastic comments go ahead , I never said I've suffered its a god damn band I haven't suffered anything. What I'm saying is you know nothing more than I do ( but of course you failed to answer the question I asked , instead you proposed one to me ) I didn't say I knew everything but I did say it's been excuses ( which it has ) from Axl and Co for a LONG time , if you can contest that go ahead but I don't see how that isn't truth.

Sorry to burst you're little bubble but just because I have negative things to say about a band doesn't mean I'm whining. Not everything is positive you know.

Guns kicks ass , I love the band , but I won't put my self in false reality.

nor is everything negative.. but going by some of you guys' posts, you'd think it is.   if you're a fan of something, I'd think it'd make you more happy than upset. 

Good point but it seems as if both sides don't want to budge ( nay sayers seemingly think everything is bad , and vice versa ). I call BS when i see it , that doesn't mean I don't love Guns N' fuckin' Roses. As a fan it upsets me we haven't gotten CD yet , I'm not whining I'm saying it upsets me. But on the same case I'm grateful and happy for the amazing tour that got put out. It cant be completely one sided , but there are 2 sides to every coin.

Yes it can because we've heard about you people being upset for the last "few" years!

We focus on the positives here.


You don't like the company here? Nobody's making you stay.....


You can't be content with containing your "I'm an upset fan" posts in one thread so you have to post the same shit in every other thread in the GN'R section.

Guess what? I have a problem with that!





/jarmo

So you are saying it CAN be completely one sided? Dude thats flat out crazy , you are basically saying lets ignore any negative aspects , and be completely one sided?

Who is "you people"?

So focusing on the positive , means completely ignoring the negatives? This topic is going no where at this rate. I guess I'll just stop posting on the topic seeing as its completely off topic now lmao.  :beer:

Jarmo, I think you're right and have good points.

However that being said and even though the last couple of years have been great, the album is the elephant in the room. Without it, the band is somewhat on hiatus. It's more difficult to generate relevant discussion without something to actively look forward to or discuss.

I'm not saying we can't positive and enjoy what we have, but for example if we see Axl out on the town we can comment on how awesome he looks. The Rolling Stone picture of him with Baz was awesome. People thought he looked good and it was encouraging to see him. The only thing we have like that is Ron's videos.

You know what I'm saying? Or am I totally off base here?

You don't seem to fucking get it.

The rest of the known universe can think GN'R sucks and CD is never coming out. I don't give a fuck.

This place is meant for all those who don't agree with the rest of the universe.




You are a negative aspect. Does it make you feel good to whine about the album not being out day after day while pointing fingers?

Maybe you need a diary? "Dear diary, I'm so upset, the album didn't come out today either."

I suggest you try it, maybe it'll work out for you.

The rest of the board will thank you.




/jarmo

It's hard to have something positive to say right now. You blind fans must understand that. There is no sign of CD, the last tours were cool but they meant nothing, the world still thinks that GNR is Axl, Slash and Duff. I didn't see any whining on the thread. Just some people giving opinions that the admin doesn't like. This is bullshit.

We all love the band, but many of us (actually, all of us) are tired of this situation and the point of this thread (see the title) is to talk about it or do you think in a thread called "Out of Patience, Give Us Chinese Democracy!" you'd see comments like "I LUV AXELLL HE DOESNT OWE ME ANYTHING HE HAS A SEXY BUTT CHINESE DEMOCRACY STARTS NOW!!!1". Please... stop using your illusion  :no:

I am a negative aspect because I chose not to ignore some BS? Day after day? Go ahead and insult me I fail to see how it gets a point across?
do I tell you need a diary " dear diary , I'm so happy Guns N Roses is the best band in the world and they do nothing wrong EVER. " No I don't childish insults get nothing done. YOU don't get it , I'm not going to ignore stuff just because I love a band.  I'm not blindly loyal to anything , I have ideas and like anything it has pro's and con's. Anyways I'm out.

"We live and learn
And then sometimes it's best to walk away
Me I'm just here hangin' on
It's my only place to stay at least
For now anyway
I've worked too hard for my illusions
Just to throw them all away"

-Locomotive

Axl's not going to piss away all his effort by making the rookie mistake of rushing the album out. It's too bad the album isn't out. Maybe we can see you again later? Right now, I'm enjoying talking about the songs that I love and memories that I've had from this awesome band.

No, it's because you choose to focus on it and make it your priority. Year after year.

We don't know anything about the situation, yet only you are there calling it bs.






/jarmo

Well seems like you don't me , don't sit here and tell me I make it my priority. What I'm calling BS is that we still haven't got CD , it's kinda of upsetting. I don't chose to focus it I already said that.

And yet you can't say you know why....

You can speculate and point fingers until your head is about to explode, but you're still not any wiser about the situation.


I bet that at least 99.99% of the posters here want to hear the new material.

But unlike you who gets upset, some of us understand the reality. It's not worth getting upset over something we can't really do much about.

We can support the band, and believe that as soon as everything is sorted, the album will be out.

What are you doing?





/jarmo

^^ he's posting his BS  ;D

What I don't understand is why people come here to complain?  How is bitching and whining on a message board going to make the album come out any faster?  It's not like Jarmo is holding onto the album until he decides to unleash it.

When have I stabbed them in the back? Show me the post.


Um, because that's what fans do. When they get excited about their favorite band releasing a new album, yeah, they get emotional. They wouldn't be, dare I say, real fans otherwise. And a lot of that "whining" is actually legit questions that none of you can answer, except with the typical "stop whining" from the overly sensitive/defensive crowd ..... Which when you think about it, is whining in itself. Ironic...


Well gee, if we go by that no one could talk about anything related to GNR, since none of us have been there every step of the way with the band since its conception.

And if I feel something is wrong, I'll voice it. The only way it gets out of hand is when people blindly defend the band, who are just as full of shit as the bashers. If a concert is canceled, there's no reason given, I have just as much right to ask the question if it were something the band did, just as you have the right to make up a defense for the band in a situation you know nothing about either. But no one is supposed to take it personal, man.
 
And maybe because that's all we can do for the most part is talk about things we don't know the full story on, because for majority of the time, that's all there is to talk about. Sometimes we take small slices of info and speculate about it and analyze it, because that's all there is to do. We all do that to an extent. It's harmless.

You and me are both outsiders here, who will never know the full story on anything, because we're not a part of the band.  It all comes down to how you see a situation.


Dude, I'm hardly ever here. I come here because there are people I like, and interesting perspectves, including yours, that I like to debate. And I've never said it sucks to be a GNR fan. N-E-V-E-R. I have said its frustrating, especially when you know there is so much great music that you're not hearing. It is frustrating being a fan, sometimes. And its okay to say that. But I'm sure it will be well rewarded in the end.  8)

Another thing, and more important, I never attack people, or make it personal. And I never question someones loyalty to their favorite band, as if I'm the end-all-be-all authority on the band. We're all fans here, save a few attention seekers who hate the new line up.


It doesn't suck for me at all. Maybe because I'm not chasing after people and berrating them if they don't see things the way I do. I'm sure that does suck, though.


Oh jeeze... Here's a question...

Have you ever been frustrated by something/someone you love? Ever seen faults in them? Ever fight with them? Ever "complain" about something? Did it make you care for them less? Did it make you a horrible person for doing so? The things we care about will always bring out the passion in us, and sometimes results in an emotional response.

And if a hurricane hit here tomorrow you're damn right I'd whine about it :hihi:


Dude, its a message board... People come to message boards to discuss things, here, their favorite band. No one has a problem with GNR, only with people who try to hi-jack what constitutes a "fan." The only "real" argument stems from people who take it upon themselves to try and tell others what they should or shouldn't think, and whine about how no fan should disagree or question anything associated with the band. That's what pollutes a thread.

I don't litter a thread with whining about an unreleased album. I respond to posts and thread topics... As you're supposed to. I don't make personal posts like this one, but I will respond. Now, I did make a point in this thread using humor with the criteria post, but it was completely serious in its point I was trying to get across... 

If you don't see negative aspects of your favorite band, then you are a complete obsessed fanatic, possibly mentally disturbed, the same way 12-year-old girls are with the Highschool musical kid. 

I'm not trying to be a smartass, and believe it or not, I do respect you as a fan and webmaster of this site, even if you don't respect me. I know you're passionate about this band and especially Axl. I'm not going to knock you for that. But everyone doesn't see things the way you do on this board or in the vast and diverse GNR community. And if we all did post the same shit, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of a forum, if everyone had to think the same way as you, or subscribe to a single line of thought? It's not about free speech, it's about being part of an on-line community, and when you open a public message board in that community, chances are you're going to run into people with differing opinions than you. And that's okay.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
good post, 100% true.

^^^^^^^^^^
Yes so very true

Yeah, I wonder if when CD is released, if those same whiners will start complaining about the next album...wahwahwah!!

FFS The albums called Chinese Democracy, a title derived about a country where free speech and human rights are non-existant. This is a message board, where fans have the right to speak about thing they care about, without losing their heads....

You can call me mentally disturbed all you want. You're not the first one. Why do I need to find faults in GN'R? Is that fun? It makes no sense to me because I assume everything has a reasonable explanation which isn't "let's fuck with the fans".


I choose to focus on the positive and try to run a place for other fans who feel the same while others thrive on negativity.

None of you "I agree" people seem to get that. You think it's your "right" to come here to whine about the same shit day after day.

It's not. Show me the proof that you have the right to come here to post!



You remind me of people who tell others "you're not gonna make it" every day until that person actually makes it. Then you're like "I knew you could do it! I always believed in you!".




Are you fucking serious?


You're basically saying we should allow all the "real fans" who like to make fun of the band and whine about the album not being out post the same shit day after day, but when we tell them this isn't the place for that shit, we "pollute" the thread?

You got a lot of nerve, I'll give you that.

As I said, we don't want a certain crowd here. Why can't you just accept it?





/jarmo

great post mister id : ok:

um, show ME the right you have to buy webspace and create a fan site?

honestly what a ridiculous thing to say. Jst accept that people have different opinions whcih are all valid in their own head. Thats Human, thats life.

What kind of question is that?





I never had a problem accepting that people have different opinions. Where the fuck did I say so?

It still doesn't mean I have to invite them to my place!


You on the other hand think it's your right to waltz in here and act like you're at home.


And apparently when I'm telling people that we don't want a certain kind of behavior in our "house", I'm polluting the place. Ridiculous.



/jarmo

^^ If you think Jarmo is tyrannical and doesn't let you state your "opinion".... leave.

Stop bitching like a bunch of pussies and get the hell out.  :crying:

This is his space... he owns it... what he says goes. Simple as that.

So don't come here and think you have the right to do what you want... this is not a democracy.

BTW I'm not sucking up to Jarmo... I don't get anything out of it... I'm just stating the facts.  ;D

it was sattire, and in fact it was just as dumb as your question. that was the point.

you made the website public Jarmo, that means anyone with an internet connection have the right to come here and read or post, unless ofcourse their post are harming others or because they dislike the band and are out for a fight.


anyways, this is lame, i've watched this argument go on for days......no wait, YEARS now. Its the same tiring stuff.

I hope that CD is out sooner rather than later, firstly so that i can here the amazing music, secondly so that you can chill out and get off your high horse!

They don't have the right, they have the choice.

It's a bit different.

You have the choice to buy Coke, but you also have the choice to buy Pepsi or maybe even Sprite!




/jarmo

Excuse me a mo, me an' the dog happen to think that there's much to be positive about right now.  You may have splashed out on tickets for a tour that meant nothing to you but I spent my hard-earned dosh on seeing a bloody marvellous set of shows that were both inspirational and memorable; they reminded me why I fell in love with this band when I first heard Appetite and reignited the passion that I felt when I first saw them play live.  I couldn't care less who 'the world' thinks is in the band; their ignorance doesn't affect my enjoyment of the music, and I would question your addition of Duff in that statement anyway.

As for there being "no sign of CD", we've been told that the recording is done; is that not something to be positive about?  It's a damn sight nearer to release than it was 18 months ago - onwards and upwards, I say.   :D


So why keep asking them, when it must be apparent to even a casual reader that there's no one on this board who's either capable of or willing to answer them?  If the intention in posing the question is in order to stimulate lively discussion then there has to be some element of originality about it, otherwise, and speaking personally here, I'm afraid it does feel very much like the poster is merely whinging and I have neither the inclination nor time to indulge them in debate.

Are you serious in thinking that some arguments will stop as early as CD is released?  ??? I can already foresee some of what's gonna happen, some people castigating the new band, the songs, and even Axl... Jarmo will have a lot to do, I'm sure of that.

For the most part I have left - actually I'm not sure why I'm here now, but since I am I'll say that the moderation of this site is literally more intrusive, and unpleasant than any other site that I've visited. I used to enjoy coming here to discuss GNR-related things(Axl's vocal technique, etc.). I'm not a hater or a naysayer, but I really can't support, or tolerate the Orwellian way that Jarmo runs this site.

But you wouldn't go on about as how axl's vocals are great now in this thread about a marketing idea would you?

You can discuss that in another thread, speculate about the past to cry over split milk in the dead horse or challenge mods in the administration section instead of hijacking threads.

Agree 100%. This was my favourite GNR site back in the late '90s and early 00's and I've been a big supporter of the band for a long time, having gone to six shows including the original HOB show in Vegas. These days I rarely bother to visit because it doesn't give an accurate picture of the fanbase's feelings about Axl or GNR. It doesn't matter if your posts are on topic and not flaming anyone, anyone who disagrees with anything Axl has ever done will have their posts deleted.

In the interests of fair play, balance and what not, I'd just like to say that I find the moderation of this site to be sane and sensible.  Jarmo handles the public insults thrown his way with a good deal more tolerance than I would be able to muster and, in my opinion, keeps this board in better shape than any other GNR board I've visited.  Through his hard work he's made it the (unofficial) place to come for reliable info and I'm very thankful that he continues to battle on even when the apparent lack of appreciation must make him wonder at times just why he bothers.

So, just for the record Jarmo, thank you - don't let the buggers grind you down.   : ok:

Yeah, and sites who have a bunch of people making shit up and whining represents the "fanbase"? Right......

These are the kind of  people who sit at home complaining about the shows while you have 15000 people having a great fucking time at a GN'R show on the other side of the globe.

Yet these people give an "accurate picture of the fanbase"? You gotta be fucking kidding.


The same people who say things like "Axl should do this, Axl should do that". When asked why, it's either "because everybody else does" or "it makes sense to me!". Of course it makes sense! You're not in Axl's, or anybody else who's part of the band's, shoes!



Somebody wrote an interesting article on the album and you have to use it to put down the band and whine about the album not being out. Typical.

We fucking get it, you're upset. Now go play somewhere else and come back when you're happier about GN'R.





/jarmo

Well, this is just the way some human being is. And it will always be like this. I totaly give GNR 100% support. And i have done that for the last 17 years... On the streets, and in any music discussion i have been in. I have also made alot of people get into Old GnR and the New, but in all fairness, i dont think GNR have had the best way to communicate. But i dont actually care. I trust the band, the managment and the people around the band. There may also be things that they stil cant talk about, so if that is the case, i truly forgive them.. But people who come on messageboards just to make up storys, theorys and stuff like that are absolutly not making the situation any better. This is a band, this is music, dont make it a fucking sopeophera!

They never have!

People claim to be big fans of the band and yet they fail to see that GN'R never was about doing things like everybody else.





/jarmo

This just isn't true. Remember when Merck was fired and he wrote a letter outlining the basis for his firing? This wasn't allowed to be posted here because it offered a point of view that was different from Axl's. Even posts quoting people that still work with Axl, such as Beta, often get deleted here even when they make it into more mainstream news. If Chinese Democracy leaked right now, you can bet the moderators would be working overtime to delete any posts mentioning it, even if it became news all over the internet/music scene. Anyone who thinks this message board accurately portrays news in the GNR world, or Axl's fanbase's feelings as a whole, is having the wool pulled over their eyes.


Only a site that let's people offer their opinions, whether they agree with someone or not (even if that someone happens to be Axl) can consider itself to be accurately representing the fanbase. If a site encouraged negativity and deleted any posts that praised Axl then it would be no more and no less honest than a discussion board that did the exact opposite such as this one. There may be people who sit at home complaining about the shows, but there are also people who have been to LOTS of shows and may not agree with all of Axl's decisions, and this site will wrongly lump all of these people into a single category and pretend they do not exist.


Wrong. I agree that the article is interesting and I am not putting down the band.

Yeah, and it seems like some people harmonize the "good old days" when talking about the band.
But back in the days there were alot more complicated thing to worry about then today.

GnR has always been about making quality music..

No, I think it's like a class room.

The ones who are the loudest get all the attention. So you have five out of 30 in a room who are the loudest and you think they represent everybody.

They don't.

I understand and accept that some fans are unhappy. It's their choice.

However, it doesn't mean I have to let them take over this site.


Another example of how misleading your logic is: In 2007 GN'R played sold out shows outside USA for thousands of fans who were excited to see them. Because a lot of the fan sites' visitors are from the US, that excitement wasn't really present on many sites.

Based on that, maybe you could've said that "nobody cared" about the 2007 world tour. But attendances at the shows prove you wrong.






/jarmo

Of course, I would expect any site that portrays itself as a fan site to do all it could to stop the theft of that artist's music.

As far as gauging public opinion on the current line-up of GNR, the most reliable method is to get yourself along to a gig and watch the reactions of those around you.  I don't think you can try to assess the mood from a messageboard, given that a vast percentage of readers probably never post.

If someone is trying to make their opinions louder than everyone else's by flaming, spamming, or threatening people, then you're right to moderate them. That's what moderating is for, and any good forum needs to do this. The problem is when someone is calmly and rationally stating an opinion and they still get moderated because someone else simply disagrees with what they said. I will offer the famous Merck letter as an example of this, where Merck actually had some nice things to say about Axl, and simply offered a different perspective. It's not our place to say who is right or wrong in these matters, and all we can do is give both sides of the story a chance if we want to form an honest outlook.


People in Europe, Australia and Asia are free to visit this site just like anyone else. The internet is all over the world, and these people can share their excitement if they choose to. I was excited about the last tour and I convinced a lot of my friends to go see GNR with me. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Axl says and does though.

If you genuinely think that there's no middle ground between the above statement, and your style of moderation, in which you delete actual facts about the band because they don't conform to the propagandist viewpoint that you're trying to put across, you're either stupid, or deluded.

How you know these are actual facts?


and that doesn't mean you have to find every fault with him.

I'm afraid irresponsible and inconstant remarks on the message boards don't really reflect the whole fan base.
Not everyone posts their opinion on the net. Not every fan  loves vain debates.




Look, some of my posts also got deleted for unknown reasons I don't really care.
 Does this mean anyone who doesn't disagree with axl will have their post deleted?

There you go again.

Both sides?

You get all the other points of view in the regular media. Isn't that enough?

We're not supposed to be some kind of "objective source of GN'R information". That's the misconception some of you have.

Nobody here will get laughed at because they defend GN'R or actually think that people in the GN'R camp have a better idea fo what's going on than some journalists.





Of course they are.

But are you arguing that my point is wrong?

That just because a majority of the posters are in the US and they don't care about the 2007 shows, "nobody cares"?




Nobody's forcing you to do anything.

The funny thing is that you probably disagree on something without knowing the reasons behind the decision.





Nice, insults.... As usual.  ::)

We delete bullshit.

A lot of things fall under that category.


Your "actual facts" can be facts, but with a negative twist.

Here's an example: Somebody posts "they only sold 5000 tickets!". That might be 100% true, but the capacity for the venue is 5000.

Get my point?

Certain people will do anything to twist things around. You think it's fair and objective.....



It's our decision. You might not agree, but that's your opinion.

You might be happy to read something and then it turns out to be pure bullshit. You get all excited and warm inside.

Then you get disappointed and upset because it was bullshit. A few years later you remember it as "a few years ago I read that....".


We're not interested in that. Contrary to popular belief, we don't delete things that are true. That's stupid.





/jarmo

Then you're absolutely right and I think it would clarify a lot of things if you put this as a disclaimer on the homepage. I actually did have the misconception that this site was an objective source of information and honest discussion.


You deleted all references to Merck's letter because you decided it wasn't true. That was stupid.

Where did I say that?


Do you know how most publications work? Somebody decides what they should publish.

Same goes here.



/jarmo

When it made news I had to go to other GNR forums to read about it because it was instantly deleted whenever someone posted it here. If you recanted and decided to post it sometime afterwards, then good for you. It was interesting to get an insider's perspective on the band and the difficulties with working with Axl, and it's not for either of us to say whether it was all "true" or not.

By the way, who actually CONFIRMED that the record was turned in? as in DONE? Mastered and everything?

lol  . . .  we can't say.   :nervous:

I thought this was an open message board, not a newspaper. I guess I was wrong.

Well whoever it is, is a liar. The record has NOT been turned in. This is 100% confirmed with Interscope. Its been played more than once and loved, but not turned in.

Ok, that's a lie, but whatever. As everyone says, it is your site - run it the way you want. I won't be here to complain, which will undoubtedly make us both happier.  

u know someone that works at a record store or something that heard that ?

confirmed when and by whom? source it or you're another fake insider.

fake insider huh? Hmmm.  Believe me or not, i don't care. But the truth is Interscope loves the record, they've heard it numerous times, thinks Axl is a genius (still), but its NOT mastered or turned in. Some band members even think its been turned in. Like...Richard Fortus. That's all folks.

See people like you are why they feel the need to delete posts!  :no:

Hmmm. Believe an anonymous, new, poster on a message board, or multiple credible sources ... That is not a hard decision.  :hihi:

I believe you. You are correct.

Your so called "multiple credible sources" don't know anything but to spin the lies they are fed from band members that don't even know the truth.

Well, just like in a newspaper, somebody has to decide what's gonna be on this board.

That's what I was getting at.





I think it's a combination of two things. People have said it's done and some have said it's the record company holding up its release.

Obviously some think this means the record company has the album in their hands....




/jarmo

I find it very hard to believe that the band would turn in the album without all the release details and finances in place. That would  be the wrong move because it would then be up to geffen to decide the fate of the cd. The band would not do that. And just like you say, and I agree, GNR does things on their own terms. It will be no different with the CD. It may be done, but Geffen does not have it. Is that so hard to swallow?

As far as the newspaper analogy, I have to disagree with you. One of the reasons that message boards/blogs were started was because of exactly the reason you gave about newspapers. Newspapers are edited, etc. So, that's why boards/blogs were created so EVERYONE can discuss openly their views and ideas without the censureship of the newpapers editors. It's so everyone can have an outlet for their ideas and then others can either agree or disagree with them. The boards should not be censured like a newspaper unless you want to have your own newspaper online. And if that's what you want, you are 100% allowed to do that. But, don't come out and make the analogy that a newspaper and the blogs/message boards are the same...they are totally not.

I agree !
This is the truth !

Fair enough, you disagree.

I think since it's something I started that I have the right to choose what kind of orientation my site should have.

If I don't want porn on my site, it's my choice.

If I don't want hate propaganda, lies, gossip or Bon Jovi articles on my site, it's up to me.


I have tried running an unmoderated board in the late 90s. It did not work and I decided never to do that mistake again.  : ok:



What I don't necessarily understand is the fact that I have to defend myself week after week for running a site my way instead of running it to fit your needs.

You don't like it? Fair enough. Go somewhere else.

It's up to you.

But please don't think that I'll start changing things just because it'll make me more popular among certain fans.




/jarmo

WTF does it matter whether or not the record company has it?  I mean they'll obviously need it in order to eventually get it onto store shelves, but for whatever reason it's obviously not ready for that yet.  I don't think anybody got so specific as to say what exactly was meant by "done", it's just been said that it's done.  Period.

aren't these important? the definitions of to hand in might differ.
The band finished the album and the label heard it and loved it. Still they have things to negotiate.

Whoa, whoa whoa!!!!!!  You're not suggesting that you don't want porn on your site, are you ?   :o

Did you have to mention Bon Jovi? Now D is going to come here and we are going to have to explain all the big words, like "Orwellian" to him. Thanks alot!

I hope jarmo doesn't want :puke:  bon jovi in the GNR section.

We can't talk about Bon Jovi, but Fernando's the biggest Bon Jovi fan ever, how come he gets away with it?  :hihi:

Pardon me, but where in my post did I suggest to you that you change your site or state that I didn't like it? My post was simply a reply to your statement that analogized a newspaper to your website. I disagreed with that and that was all I said.

Yeah but do you like this board? Why?

I like the fact that GNR doesn't kiss fans asses. That doesn't mean GNR members never listen to the fans or others. They still stay true to what they believe.
Likewise its one of the reasons I like this board that it doesn't kiss its members asses.
A board that accommodates itself to whatever loudmouthed is unreliable in my opinion.

Not to mention  All the above are fucking off topic. :P

Quit arguing, sweet five-pound Christ.

Everyone is talking about who's "negative" and who's not. Your arguing and constant squabble is more negative than anyone saying anything unfounded about the band. And unlike those statements, your arguing doesn't pertain to the band, it pertains to disagreeing on how a website should be run.

How about we close the thread? Afterall, the thread is about being tired of following the drama that we know nothing about and the last 3+ pages aren't even about the article.

Then we can sit in the dark like a little asshole child on timeout who can't get along with the other students and share his toys.

I agree, lets close the thread.


I mean seriously, all thats happening is bitchin and whining and it's pathetic. Though i have to say the GNR negative fans arn't the only ones souring up the thread, anyone who argues with them and keeps the stupid bs goin is to blame as well.. *cough*Jarmo*cough*

I'm sorry, I just think all the stupid bickering is making anyone new to this forum think we are all a bunch of children  :P

Okay let's do everything you want to do. : ok:

I'm not calling you mentally disturbed, I'm not questioning your fanhood either...

Beavis: Fanhood, heheheh heheheheh :hihi:

And I wasn't talking about finding faults, I was talking about REFUSING to see their faults to the point of being so defensive/sensitive that you come across like one of those crazy 12-year-old fans of that Zack Efferon kid. The kind that come up with their own rules of being a fan... You can't have a real conversation with someone if that person is in a constant defensive mode.

Are there people who will only be negative? Sure. But not everyone.

And I have NEVER said GNR purposely fucks with the fans. They just don't care, as you've said yourself. And when you choose to have that disposition, you're going to rub the fans the wrong way. It's called: Cause and effect.

Like Adam Corrola said: "Axl Rose is the biggest prick in music, but I still love him."


*sigh*

Like I said, I respect you as a fan, and you can view it anyway you want. I will not knock you for being positive, but coming across as if the band has never done wrong, and berrating  people about it is different. Being positive is one thing, what we're talking about is another. You do go after people, not just someone who's come here to bash. Any good point you have is lost in the wide brush strokes you paint over the fanbase.

My right to come here... Well, it's not a private mesage board, I thought it was public. If it is reserved for only specific people I wasn't aware of it. From what I see it's a site dedicated to the band. I wasn't told in the agreement I signed all those years ago that there was an official "criteria" of what a GNR fan is I had to meet, and to agree to think a certain way if I wanted to post here. And I do follow all the rules here. But it is your message board, you run it the way you like. And if you still want to ban me, not because of breaking the rules, but because I think different than you, than that is your decision. It would be sad because of the history I have here, but again, if you do want to make this a private board for only a certain type of fan, it is up to you.



I think you're looking in the mirror at that description.  I never tell anyone what to do. I don't put them down. I don't question their loyalty. I never attack anyone. I debate them, and as I'm doing now, I am open to the prospect that I am wrong, and that you can correct me... Still waiting for that revelation...

I am a very encouraging person. I take pride in that. And I think we could tell who best fits that description if the both of us looked back on our posts made the last week or month... But I admit, I did tell the baby to stop eating the paint, but he deserved it :hihi:
 


Yes. Yes I am.


Well, since I don't fit in that "crowd", I don't need to accept it. I don't make fun of the band. I'm not whining about the album not being released. And I'm not just talking about myself, but a few others here who you may think fits in that "crowd." I debate peoples perspectives on why the album isn't out when the discussion comes up, but I'm not whining about it.

Matter of fact, you should know, that no one has ever gotten away with bashing this band in front of me. I've taken them all on and shut them up. Several, or sadly, the few old school posters that remain here, know about that, what kind of fan I am,  and some of my battles with the bashers. And my position hasn't changed. I love this band and this line up.

Not all of us fit under the same umbrella here, man. I wish you could see that.

We're all human.

People make mistakes.


But the thing I'm against is people coming up with all kinds of things that are "wrong" and reasons for being upset.

That's probably their idea of fun, I don't know. Nobody ever answered me why it's so important to them.

Anyway, it's easy to say "they should do this and that and I'd be happy!". You can tell them "they never done that in the past, and it's just better to start accepting that fact", but sure enough, they keep going and going.


 



This is another example of what I was talking about.

People want GN'R to be GN'R, but then they also want them to go on at 9PM sharp like everybody else and do things like everybody else. Well, if GN'R started doing things like everybody else, are these people still gonna be fans or is it gonna be all about "they sold out! They're like everybody else now!"?


You can't whine about not getting updates, and when you get one you use it against the band!






If I appear to be condescending towards certain fans it's only because they're totally lacking any respect for what this place is about.







I go after the people who are after ruining every other thread in the GN'R section.

But maybe I shouldn't say anything? A quick ban without warning might be a better way?





You don't have to tell people what to do, but the mods and I have to.

I question the loyalty of somebody who claims to be a big fan and then basically does everything a fan shouldn't do in my opinion.

Is that weird to you?


For example: You can say "I'm a huge fan, I saw GN'R twice last tour, but I don't think the album is ever coming out.".

So if I question the reason why that person is even here, you think it's weird?


If you have a bunch of friends and you go out every week but one of them is constantly bringing the others down. Month after month, year after year. Do you come to a point where you question the need to invite him along the next weekend? Maybe you'd even confront him about the problem? 


That's what some fans are basically doing. They're trying to bring everybody else down.

If he's not happy, nobody else should be! Who cares about the shows? They're not playing in my country! What? Album is done? Fuck that, there's no release date!



I tend to think that if you post something, you should be able to stand for it. If we all got together in a bar before a show and there was a table filled with people whining, I certainly wouldn't fucking sit with them.  :hihi:





/jarmo

Jarmo, that was an excellent post, man. And you made some great points.

Just a few things and I'm making this as "positive" as possible:

I do think people are angry and are repetative in their displeasure at the wait and bs, but I just see that as very pasionate fans who do care about GNR. But I can see it from your perspective that it would be annoying. But the result of that ends with people feeling picked on, their fanhood questioned, and all that makes does is make the situation worse.



Now this is where I whole heartedly disagree with you.

If a band is a certain way, you have to accept certain aspects about them you don't like. But that doesn't give them any right to shit on you. Example, in 2002 some friends of mine went to the Detroit and Philly shows. Friends who were HUGE fans. I can't tell you how disappointed they were when Axl got pissed off in the middle of Patience because the band screwed up and he forgot some words, and he stormed off and shut down the show. They were so excited to see their favorite band and felt completely cheated at the end. No official explanation was given at all for why he split in the middle of the show. One friend went to the Philly gig, and we both know how that turned out. :hihi:

Now, I will not EVER say these fans are not entitled to be angry, or they have no right to voice their displeasure. They are fans today, somewhat, but refuse to spend any money on another concert, and it took a long while for them to be interested in CD again. They have a right to be jaded. And a lot of people here who are labled whiners have very solid arguments, and that irks me to the umpth degree, and their points get twisted and squashed in a "My gang vs. your gang" kind of bickering that serves no one any good.

People have right to be angry/frustrated, whatever, because that's what passionate fans do. And you can be turned off by things the band does and still be a fan. But I think we can all take a step back to try and understand each other here a little better.

And I do not at all use an update against them. I admit, when I got the update from Del James for example, it was insulting to me, and I did voice my opinion about it, and GNR smartly removed it. I don't look for a reason to complain about the band.

I do understand your position completely, you explained it very well. But I do think you attack people, but I do understand your end that you are frustrated. But I think we both can understand each other here, even though we don't agree on everything. I'm not saying you have to think the way I do, or vice versa, and I will voice my opinion when I think you're being unfair, but I do think we can... Dare I say, fully respect each other and our differing opinions?


I do stand up for what I post. Which probably is what gets us into these debates. But this is a good one, in my opinion. I don't know if you would agree.

And no, if someone is being a drag, I sure as fuck wouldn't sit with them... Unless they're paying for the drinks. :hihi:

Now this whole thing cracks me up. How is it that a band member of GNR know less then your "source" which you have yet to name or even give a hint at?

"A" for effort on trying to get yourself attention though...

My point is, if you're that passionate, use that energy for something good.

Think a a little further than "I want the album out".






Ok, but I don't think GN'R has ever "shit on" the fans.

You mention the Detroit show from over five years ago. I don't know, I was under the impression that we're all human. The show was cut short. It happens!

It's happened to me too. By other bands!


You want every show to be a three hour marathon. Then you realize, maybe you don't. It's like every day being Christmas.... Then it's not a special occasion when they do play a longer show.



We don't know what happened in Philly other than some "fans" using it as an excuse to destroy things that's not theirs.

At least you were not given a "we couldn't play because of the snow on the arena roofs" excuse.  ;)



I'd tell that person to get over it. It's been a few years.....


The little experience I have of going to concerts, I've still had bands play short sets, cancel shows and start "late".

It happens. It's what makes going to a show a bit different from sitting at home watching it on a bootleg DVD.... ;)





I don't think the point was about who knows more or less, the point was that the album hasn't been turned in.....






/jarmo

even so we cant help but take offense when we see anyone implying that band members are liars.

That was my point. Calling yourself more informed then a current member of GNR is a little silly in my book.

I just wanted to touch on this subject real quick. I was at that show and it's a common misconception that they played "half a show". They only skipped Nightrain and the encore that night. I'm not saying that's right either, but alot of people act as is Patience was the 3rd song or something. Another thing that never gets mentioned is that it was the only show on that tour that GNR played Rhiad (sp?). That's something special to remember from that show and be appreciative for.

Thanks russtcb.  I was baffled at the accusation as I read many reviews about the show along the the lines of  what you said.


Are you sure your friends were really at the show?

Why not for both? If your passionate about something  you should be able to use that energy for both good and bad.

How shocking that this is another "your not a tru fan" thread.

Time and time again.....just because someone disagrees with something their fav band does doesnt mean they arent a fan.

The only people who should be encouraged to leave this forum are people who talk about Axls braids,who insult, and people who are just trouble,etc.

Other than that everyone here should be able to say what they want about the band. It shouldnt matter if you agree with them or not. This is a forum. Its for discussion and debate. like this place used to be.

I know your going to say how I sound like a broken record. Leave yada yada yada...Like I said in the post that got deleted a few min ago..."another thread about how to be a fan...shocking".

This topic has been discussed for a long time now. Why not take a step back and listen to those "whiners"? Obiviously people have a different opinion than you on this subject.

Im not even saying you have to agree. Im just saying stop acting like there is one way to be a fan of GNR.

Axl is great but hes not a saint. The sooner you realize that, the better

So instead of answering my question, you just ask another one. Way to skip the whole point!





Disagreeing and coming up with some constructive points is one thing, whining and whining because you feel like you've been cheated on is something else.





Now you're telling me how this place should be like it's up to you.

Hey, I wish YOU were like you used to be. Can you change for me?  ::)



This is a forum for debate?

Often the idea of a "good debate" centers around how much people think GN'R sucks. What the fuck is up with that?

You think fans should have to go to a GN'R fan site to defend GN'R from other fans? It's like you going to a Mets home game and being harassed for being a Mets fan in the section for the "home fans".




Obviously if people think they have the right to come to "our house" and demand that we adjust to them, they need a reality check.


When will you fucking get it? I don't want this place to turn into a place for "true fans to complain all day long, day after day, because they should have that right"! Does it make any sense to you? Or are you just gonna tell me you should have the right to complain because you are a "true fan"?


But it makes sense that you don't get it. After all, you're the one who WANTS to waste your time and energy on negativity instead of trying to put that time/energy to some good use. I guess it's too much to ask....

I guess if you had to think every time before you post, it's asking for too much. So it's a lot more "fun" to just complain.





The album's not out yet. What are YOU gonna do about it?






/jarmo

You are characterizing it as whining because everything that is discussed here has pretty much been discussed for years now. Nothing has changed for the most part. Which is why it may seem redundant. Which is why some people seem to be "whining".


No, often these debates discuss the things gnr do. I rarely see people saying that GNR sucks. Most people who whine and complain are discussing the actions of the band and what they might mean..

Your wrong. I dont know how it is at other places in the world but here in NY, fans, die hard fans, analyze their teams 24/7. Whether its on the radio or at the games. In fact the stadium, or in this case the forum, is a great place for people to discuss the team and what they think. It happens all the time.

I think fans of this band should come here and be able to discuss gnr. Good and bad. I dont think most people here just want to stroke gnrs nuts 24/7.

: ok:


It makes plenty of sense to me. People should have the right to say what they want. Maybe the same old complaints keep popping  up because its the same old story with this band? ever think of that?


I dont waste my time and energy on the negatives. Im just discussing what I read and see. I have no agenda. I call it like I see it.

What is there to be positive about?

Im sorry but after 8 yrs of following this band I cant get a boner over another "the album is finished and handed in" rumor. We have been down this road a zillion times.

Please tell me what I should be excited about in the GNR world. Or better yet...what should I be "thinking" about before I post?

Ill tell you what Im excited about....
JOHAN SANTANAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Wait, speculate, and enjoy the ride

how bout you?

from what i have read on this site so far, there is no debating. if you disagree with this jarmo guy, he ignores or belittles your opinion. this is not a forum site. this is jarmo's house.

Doesn't it make you tired?

You really wanna read about how another "true fan" is upset that there's no new album?






Well, with that outlook on things...




Eight years? There are posters on this board who passed the "eight anniversary of being a GN'R fan" in the 90s. Still, they're not as upset/bitter as you. I'm not even talking about myself, so you might just as well save your "jokes" (=insults) for later.


No we really haven't been here before. It's your ignorance that causes this.

The album was 100% finished in 2007. No matter how you twist it, if it was 99.9% done in the past, it wasn't completely done!

You never admitted that so instead you go on and on about how things are the same. They're not!

They appear the same to someone who refuses to take in facts!





Ok, do you know the concept of constructive criticism?

If you don't, look it up.




Is this you enjoying the ride? I'd hate to see you really upset.....  :hihi:

Does it suck that you're so upset about something and there's nothing you can do about it?






What am I gonna do about the album not being out? Well, since it doesn't upset me the way it upsets you, I don't think I have to do anything.

Do you?

If I'm all out of coffee and it upsets me, I go buy more.

If it doesn't upset me the slightest and I'm fine with it, why should I have to do something about it?





/jarmo

That's basically what it comes down to. The truth is it's Jarmo's site so he is within his rights to control what anyone says or reads here. He could ban everyone and just talk to himself if he wanted to. I think it explained everything when he said this site is not really a discussion board, but rather like a "newspaper" where he "chooses what to publish."

"We're not supposed to be some kind of "objective source of GN'R information". That's the misconception some of you have."

I was definitely under that misconception, and I bet most of the people reading this were as well. I'm just happy to see him being honest about it here.

Not really. But again, what else is there really to discuss?

such as? and confirmed by who?

I cant help it that I discovered in 2000. Heard Dust N Bones and was hooked! Thank you Napster!

Obivioulsy there are a lot more fans who have waited a lot longer than me. Im not even complaining about the wait. Its been frustrating...but it is what it is. Doesnt mean I cant discuss it though. good and bad


The fact is that we are still in the same position as we always have been.  And you cant tell me about the current situation because no one knows the current situation. Hence, we are still in the same situation as we always have been.

Yes, but you dont.

I think Axl should have informed us a little more over the past few months. Especially since his last press release.

Enjoying the ride...meaning the ups and downs of this band. In the end it will be something that I will look back on and appreciate. both the ups and downs


Again, you insinuate that Im upset or something. Hate to break it to you but Im not :no:

i already told you. Wait, speculate, and enjoy the ride

Idk your the one who asked the question

It was an analogy for all those of you who don't understand the concept that even if you have Freedom Of Speech, somebody decides what gets printed, broadcast etc.

Just because you have Freedom Of Speech doesn't mean your local paper is gonna print every news article.

Same goes for Internet sites. We have the right to decide what we think can/should be posted on our own sites.





Where in the rule book does it say a fan is "objective"?

We all base on opinions on something.

Somebody who's upset about something is objective? No, don't think so. That emotion will probably make him be biased.


Why is it that published works aimed at ridiculing the band are considered "objective"? Negativity sells, and when you write a negative article it's automatically objective because it doesn't favor the subject?





Let me get this straight, you're happy and content with whining about shit for YEARS that you have no control over?






Well, you just said there's nothing to be happy about.

What a positive outlook on things you have!

Cheer up!


Somebody needs a hug!




Here's a clich? that's true in your case: You sound like a broken record.

Didn't I just explain in plain English why things aren't the same? Yes/No?




I don't?




Do you have any ideas on why this might not have happened?

See, this is where you're supposed to think......






Oooh, I'm sorry! You do come across as a happy camper with the whole "what's there to be happy about" attitude!





No, you asked me the same question I asked you.

It makes no sense to ask somebody who's not upset "why are you so upset and what are you gonna do about it?" does it?



/jarmo

If you think so, you don't have to discuss anything. 
Don't you just love arguing for the sake of argument and hunt for whatever good opponent to try your skill in debating?

Again, Im not whining. Im just discussing what I see. So just because you dont have control over something means that you cant discuss it?

Thats weird because you have a site dedicated to something you have no control over.


Trying to avoid the question with not so funny responses...
again.....what is this positive outlook that you speak of and confirmed by who?

Im sure I can come up with a few assumptions.

I mean 99% of the bands out there use communication...but your right......im sure there are some extenuating circumstances that prohibit Axl from making some kind of statement. silly me

Oh wow. Talk about missing the point.

Posting about how upset you are over something you can't do nothing about. Does that seem like it could get tiring after a few years?

Oh, obviously not to you!

Maybe on some other site your last 100 posts look like this "the album's not out yet :( ".... That looks like a really interesting debate to me!





A site fueled by my frustration? No...







What the fuck are you talking about? Do I need somebody to confirm the fact that you say there's nothing to be positive about?

Do you have a spokesperson I could get it confirmed from?




You're the one claiming nothing has changed and there's nothing to be positive about.

Yet when I tell you things aren't the same, you just ignore it.

How come? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the album is done?





Ok, do go on.



Where's that list?

I asked you to come up with something and you fail..... Isn't that what a debate is supposed to be about?

Your idea of a debate is obviously ignoring facts and trying to skip questions. Or?

I thought this was supposed to be a debate. Isn't that what you were after? Can you be that "objective true fan" you want to make us believe you are? Can you put your bitterness aside and think from the other point of view for a second or two? Is it asking too much?




But yet you fail to answer any kind of question that requires you to think. Instead you make some kind of smart-ass remark..... Kinda weak.

Why is that? I guess now you can ask me "why do you ignore my questions" and round we go.....



It looks to me like you're not after a debate after all.... What are you after?




/jarmo

One of the main reasons for message boards to exist in the first place is because people don't like having one person in charge of what gets published. Your analogy was exactly right, this site is not like a forum, it is more like a publication or newspaper.


Agree 100%. You have the ability to ban/silence whomever you choose.


I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here, but you're missing the point entirely. Any one side of a story may or may not be truthful and objective, but if you only let one point of view be heard (by deleting comments from insiders and former band members such as Merck) then you are preventing anyone from forming an honest and balanced opinion and that's where this site loses its integrity.

How stupid of me! I always thought it was a place for like minded people to get together in one place.

No matter where in the world you are, you can go to a GN'R fan site and get in touch with other GN'R fans....


Now I see, it's a place where no matter where in the world you are, you can go to a GN'R fan site and read about how much it sucks to be a GN'R fan!





So you're saying people should be allowed to form their "objective" opinion based on things that aren't true?

That's what this is about. You want to be able to "discuss" stuff that's not necessarily true.



I've seen this before. As soon as somebody says something negative about the band it should be posted and discussed. It's pretty much taken as the "truth" by some fans because it's not coming from the GN'R camp. Who we all know loves to fuck with their fans!   ::)

You have a band member saying something, but that's not good enough for you. You want to hear what others say about it..... It doesn't matter if what you've heard is 100% true. You want to hear the bullshit stories so you can form your honest opinion.....


This to me is like being in a court of law and having a witness who you know is not telling the truth since the person wasn't even at the scene of the crime. But hey, the jury should listen to the person to form an honest opinion. ;)




/jarmo

You said there was a positive outlook. I asked what is the positive outlook? whats so hard to understand?\

What isnt the same. You still havnt told me. We are pretty much still in the same situation as we have been.

Done according to whom?
The album has been done a few times over the yrs.

The album has been deemed ready to be mastered and in the lables hands a few times over the yrs.

We dont know the status of the album...just like we never did the whole time...hence things havnt changed


No, you didnt ask me for a list. You asked me if I knew of any reasons.

I dont need to come up with a list.

i would assume that Axl hasnt said anything because he doesnt want to make promises he cant keep. He knows the situation can change on a dime so instead of saying something he just says nothing.


You dont ask questions dude. And if you do I answer them. get off your high horse. Is this your new theme now..."think"?

There is nothing to think about. The situation is what it is. If I wanted to sugar coat it, I would THINK of every possible excuse/copout/ and technicality and make an argument for the band like you do.

I already know that there are certain things the band cant do. Or is not their fault. I dont need to announce them or announce that I have thought about them. I also know that there are things imo that the band could have handled better.
In your eyes Axl has not done wrong. So why argue with someone who THINKS on that level?

Jarmo. I think part of the problem is that you are percieved to have an envied connection with the band, as such people think that you've kisssed major ass to have this.
You have correctly said that this is your site and its up to you inwhich the rules should be adhered to. I for one am glad that at least one site that isn't oficial offers a means for the band to connect with us mortals.

If I was to ask you a question, could you (or even would you) be so good to answer it truthfully, yeah I know people won't believe you however you answer it.

My question is;

Given that the album has been rumoured to be finished and given that the finishing touches were made at the beginning of 2007, have you heard the version, or one like it that Baz was so positive about in March " 2006? where "Sorry" was first mentioned, by him as a track on the album.

It remains to be seen, but for the record I DO think CD will be on general release this year and would like to say thanks for putting a creditable site on-line for us to enjoy.

Several people who should know.



This is once again you assuming.

How can it have been "done a few times over the years" when the recording was finished in 2007?

Will you please explain it.

As I said a while back "nearly done" or "90% done" does not mean recording is finished.



Assumptions from your part.

You ignore what I said above and then cite old rumors as facts.



Well it was only mentioned on gunsnroses.com last year..... For the first time ever!

But ignore it.  ::)



Aren't you after a debate?

Maybe my memory is wrong but weren't you the one who wanted to debate stuff?

So your idea of a debate is just a bunch of posts with "yes/no" answers?



Ok, that sounds like a good theory to me.

Now, try to follow.

#1: I wish there was more updates!
#2: But maybe there's a reason for that....
#3: Like (insert possible reasonable explanation)

What's next? Do you jump back to step #1 and keep repeating it?




High horse? Did you come up with that one yourself or are you recycling somebody else's material? :hihi:

It's not a theme at all. I assumed, correct me if I'm wrong, that in a debate you were supposed to think!

It's not a quiz!




In that case, there's nothing to discuss and you can logout!





Sugar coat?

Nice, I see you try to resort to the old insults again.

Just because I happen to think that a debate actually requires some thinking, I'm the "bad guy".....


And you're the objective true fan with no agendas...




You know you can't have something, you know there's probably an explanation for it and you still go on about it? Why?




More insults....

I "challenged" you to actually take a break from "point the finger at the band" game and as soon as you realized everything has an explanation you started insulting me.

You want a debate, but not one where you might actually see it form the other point of view.




Yeah, and it's all assumptions.


You can say "things have changed in the last year" or whatever. Well, things have changed in the GN'R world too.

Before 2006 I hadn't seen the current band live..... So I should feel the same as I did in 2005? I don't think so.



I don't know where all these bullshit stories that I have the album come from, I can only guess. It doesn't require too much thinking (good thing right Younggunner?).





/jarmo

if having anything to do with older material is supposed to be disrespectful to the new band, then why do they play old songs at the shows?  ???

Does anyone actually agree with Jarmo in all of these arguments?  I mean Jarmo you don't actually believe all the crap you say do you? It's pretty easy to see through the shit and realize that for whatever reason you only want to hear, read, or view blind faith "pro" New GNR materials.  Anybody who has integrity and intelligence realizes that you need to look at things from a logical/rational point of view.  Instead of doing that you just try to spin every single thing (no matter how trivial) to make Axl and Co look like glorious victims in this whole process. I'm a HUGE Guns fan (old and new) but I still try to maintain some integrity! I call bullshit on things that are bullshit, etc.   Wake Up, You're In The Real World, Time To Get Real!

I post what I think instead of posting what I think you want me to think. That's integrity.

As you can see in this thread, I'm not changing my opinion even after I get insulted. Isn't that what integrity is about?



What you think is bullshit often has a reason and explanation.

So because I try to make people think about that, I'm stupid and gullible?

Just because I'm not one of those "you canceled a show, bad bad bad GN'R!" fans, I'm not rational? I go a step beyond that.

"Yeah, they canceled a show, it sucks but it was canceled because......".


Some of you are amazing. You want debates, you want to discuss things, but it seems like you only want people who agree with you in the "discussions". The same thing you accuse me of!

If somebody, like myself in this case, disagrees or asks you to think, I get attacked and insulted.  :hihi:




/jarmo

In the past 5 minutes you've deleted two posts that prove my point 100%. You win, it won't be possible to continue this discussion on this "message board."

:wave:

I think it's stupid to post something you know shouldn't be posted only to "prove" your point....

It's also wrong to label people who worked with GN'R years ago as part of the "GN'R camp" to prove your point.

The most amusing thing is fans suddenly clinging onto Merck's letter like it's the honest truth. A few weeks earlier everything he said was basically labeled lies because he was presenting GN'R's side.

There's a pattern there. Whoever says the opposite of what GN'R does is always labeled "interesting" and "the truth". Only stupid gullible fan boys would believe that people in the band and around the band have a better idea of what's going on than outsiders or former associates.




/jarmo

me i guess. altho I haven't read all the arguments. have you?

I don't get why people are nagging at him when cd is completed. Is jarmo holding it up?

Yeah, it's my fault.

All these true fans are right. Bitching about it not being out and not getting updates will get it out faster! It has worked so well so far for them hasn't it?






/jarmo

First of all, I never even tried to post it since I knew you'd delete it anyway. I'm sure you're already working overtime to stop all the people who have tried to post it. These insiders (I won't even refer to their names, happy?) wrote about their experiences with GNR and they're perfectly qualified to do so. Just because they were fired or quit (along with dozens of others) doesn't make their point of view any less valid. They're not pretending to know anything about the band in 2008. They spoke specifically about their own first hand experiences working with Axl on Chinese Democracy when they were members of the GNR camp, and if you don't see the value of that information as a GNR fan then I feel sorry for you.

Yeah, me too.  Gn'R is my favorite band, and it's cool to come to a message board to talk (or read, mostly, in my case) and not have to read the negative crap so many people feel the need to put out day after day after day.  Or at least, if they do, I get the pleasure of reading their smackdown.

Would you call that kind of people objective?



For example, if we don't want to promote sensationalism, gossip, hearsay and respect the band, it's our choice.

If I choose not to promote something I feel is ripping off the fellow fans, I don't have to. It's also my choice.

You might feel upset that you didn't see that unofficial DVD mentioned on the site. But that's tough luck....



If you're only here to teach me how to run this site, you might as well start posting in the right section or leave..... It's not gonna change no matter how many days you keep going. Ask Younggunner.

People who only come here to whine about how we run this place isn't exactly the reason why this site exists.




/jarmo

I'll agree to disagree, and I think I've made my point. You can run the site and censor things as you see fit.

Thanks, and you're free to complain about the setlist of shows you didn't attend, about the lack of a new album, lack of updates, and how much it sucks to be a GN'R fan, all you want on other sites.



The idea of negativity being cool and lack of respect for the band doesn't interest me.




/jarmo

I think sometimes Jarmo, U don't try to see the point of view of fans who haven't had the priviledge of being a guest at shows who havent had the priviledge of sitting backstage and watching shows from the best seats in the house.


Its easier for you because you have been around it, U know there are great things to be optimistic about.

I even think its possible u have heard CD


But for the rest of us, from time to time it does get frustrating.

Some people bitch just to bitch but there are some who aren't like that and feel sometimes bitching is valid.

Sometimes a band needs to see their fans are pissed and upset to kind of knock them in gear.

If they think the fanbase is indifferent, they won't feel as compelled to do shit.


Positive or negative, the band should hear and acknowledge their fanbases opinion.

seems like some green eyed monster is running about.


Totally.  :yes: besides, when new fans come I don't want them to be told how the band sucks axl is an asshole guys in the band are hired don't deserve respect kinda craps and got flamed for praising the band by those 'real' fans. would be very discouraging for the fans that were blown away at recent concerts. will be very uncomfortable for the fans the upcoming album will win.
Some of them are watching the forums as we speak.

Where did you get this idea from?

Oh wait. Now it makes sense!

I must've heard it because I remain positive! Riiiight......


The truth is, the other alternative sickens me. It makes no sense to me to give up when you're on the home stretch. Just like TRUE fans of the NY Giants aren't giving up before the Super Bowl has been played because everybody else thinks they have no chance of winning it anyway.  :peace:



/jarmo

How come the superbowl statement ?
Because the is this guy on cd.com saying that gnr are going to do 30 sec promo in the second half or some shit.

Because it happens tomorrow and the teams keep trying to get there all year. Some players try to get there their whole careers....

Also because a friend of mine knows what it means to be a true fan of the NY Giants....





/jarmo

If I had a dollar for everytime "some guy" said he had 30 seconds/1 minute/full version of a GNR song from the Chinese Democracy sessions I would have a couple million dollars.

Bored 12-year olds with too much time on their hands. Do we need to go over this every year? There's not going to be a super surprise GNR show during the SuperBowl or a commercial. End of story.

Ok i know !!!!
I was just trying to see if it linked with jarmo post. no harm in trying ?
And also it isnt a show i was talking about ! No point being such a prick about it.

Chinese Democracy Sta..r.......   Oh hell, never mind :-X

Something I was trying to say in that one thread which turned into a huge bashfest was just basically, I don't know the new members.

Jarmo, u have probably been around these guys, u have spoke to some of them, u were able to get a connection that 99 percent of us on here havent been able to.

I connect through music, but really, Im not going to be able to truly connect with these guys until the CD comes out.  I need to hear their music, some interviews etc, learn about them, what they like, don't like etc.

Right now, thats the only thing stopping me from getting truly connected to this band the way i want.


I think there is a big difference between trolls coming here and stirring up shit just because and long time posters who get a little critical and want to ask tough questions.

Same questions year after year. And when you ask them to think and try to come up with possible explanations, they get defensive throwing insults around....

Having a positive outlook and open mind is frowned upon. Taking bullshit gossip for the truth and having a negative outlook based on your own frustrations, is considered being a true fan....



I don't need to "connect" with people to be able to respect them.




/jarmo

Thats just it though, I don't know any true fans/posters who take rumors as truth and frown upon people that are positive.


I think its understandable certainly in the world of GNR to get frustrated from time to time.

Didn't Axl even say something in his press release saying he understood people's frustrations and if u need, take some time away and hopefully we will see u down the road or something?


So I think its 100 percent legit for a true fan to every once in a while get frustrated. Its still being a true fan, cause if u werent a true fan, u wouldn't give a shit therefore u would never get frustrated.

Yeah, and we all understand it.

Yet we don't understand why these people don't take that advice and take that break from all the frustrations that they have to put up with because they're true GN'R fans.....




/jarmo

If someone has a open mind doesnt that mean that they will be open minded about rumours or gossip because they might consider it to have some truth or trying to find somthing to be positive about the possiblity of that rumour being true as long it is in a positive mannor.

You mention having an open mind, but you seem to be pigeonholing people who use this site. It is possible to discuss the comings and goings of GN'R without the intent  of starting an argument or being a "troll".

Adults should be able to discuss things reasonably, have their opinion heard and hear the opinion of others.
It doesnt seem right that you are stopping the game saying:

 "Its my ball, you play it my way or you can just go home"

How can you call yourself a "true fan" when you admit you know zero about the band members?  Just about all the GNR band members have done interviews talking about themselves and their music and their likes/dislikes.

It's funny how you consider yourself a musician and you know nothing about what the GNR band members have contributed to the history of music.

Exactly what are you a true fan of?  Can't be their music because you say you haven't heard any of it. 

If you constantly think the worst of the band you claim to support, I don't think you're being particularly open minded or positive.


I'm stopping the game? Damn right.

We have people who admit they see no problems going on and on with the same shit year after year.

I don't need that here!

Maybe you think that's normal and fun. I don't.

You're free to associate yourself with any kind of crowd you want. I'm not stopping you.

I'm saying that I don't need to surround myself with the kind of people who are trying hard to put me down, because I refuse to join their little club of disgruntled true fans.



I can't believe I have to do this week after week because you people refuse to fucking accept that you have no control over how I choose to run the site I started in 1996.

For all of you who keep questioning me WEEK AFTER WEEK. What's your reason?

Do you honestly think I'll wake up one day and realize "Hey, they're right! I should let them talk shit about GN'R because they're so unhappy about certain aspects of the band! It's only right that I let them turn something I worked on for years to shit because they obviously are upset! Why didn't I see this before!?!"?




/jarmo

jarmo, if you want to run your site as a censored newspaper, then thats all fine and dandy because its your house. however, let everyone know that this site is NOT a place for open discussion and a place to come and agree or disagree with other. The thing is, most people dont know that this site is constantly censored, so they are only reading one point of view . so, there should be some large disclaimer in bold lettering so the people know that there is only one point of view allowed here and that point of view is yours. and your are perfectly allowed to do that because this is your kingdom. just be open and honest with everyone and not just the people who called you out on this thread...

Don't be silly.  This whole thread is a bunch of people disagreeing.  Most of the censoring has to do with people acting like assholes or completely false statements about the band...not with differences of opinion.

FFS give it a rest fellas!!

At the end of the day it's just an album.

im sorry to disagree with you. im new here and i have had my posts deleted and the posts were just fact or opinion posts...not trying to start any problems and i know it has happened to many others. again, its his house, so he should be open and honest with everyone about how he censors it. i hear and respect your post, i just disagree with it....

It was a fucking analogy, not the description of this site.



Talk about taking things out of context.

If there's certain things that we choose not to discuss, it doesn't mean we don't discuss anything now does it?






I think we should have some kind of IQ test on the site before you can login.  ::)

If you don't understand that this board is moderated (like most others) then you haven't been paying any attention.


You agreed to the following when you registered:




Oddly enough, some of the same people who have issues with how I choose to run this site are the ones who demand updates and are "upset" with GN'R.



/jarmo

jarmo, i didnt read the disclosure when i signed up. please, no one does. its tiny and no one cares. plus, even if one does read it, it is a blank censor waiver. who gets to decide what is "objectionable" or "false?" you of course! so anything that is posted can fit into that definition because you can define those terms any way you want. you know that the vast majority of people here do not know that you censor the site 24/7. all im saying, is let them know that and dont bury it in tiny print when the register. i was hoping to have fair, open discussion here. that's disappointing....

If you dont like it go ?
Because it wasting my time reading rubbish and your time writing rubbish you dont have to be here at all !
So please go.

Is that my fault?




Correct answer!

It makes sense to most people that the one(s) who run the site should have control over what's on it.


Who did you think? Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy? You?





Oh my God....

It's called common sense!


You don't have signs one every street corner saying the police is making sure the law is upheld either, but common sense tells you that they might.

No wonder there's warning labels about the bag containing peanuts on fucking peanut bags...  ::)




/jarmo

Well me personally my reason for joining this discussion is that, like I said before, I feel you are pigeonholing people who visit this site.

I have never thought "the worse" of the band "I claim" to support, I am not "disgruntled" at all, I will be actually be sad when the wait is all over because its been such a big part of my life for 10 years.
 Please don't refer to me as "you people", you are associating myself and others to fit your narrowminded view of visitors to this site.

I don't know how many people come here "constantly think the worst of the band" and post narrow minded views in a troll like fashion, you know better than me as you are admin. I guess a lot get deleted, if the content of sites like cd.com are anything to go by. I never see posts like the typical ones of those sites around here.
Thats why I come here to read about GN'R and have done for 8 years, this site is not full bile and flaming of "noobs".
For example, I'm autistic and quite sensitive about it, I have been wanting to make a post about it in The Jungle, to see if there are any other members in a similar situation or know of anyone. But I would never even consider making a post like that on other GN'R forums because I couldnt face the snidey smug comments from real trolls who frequent those sites. I figured that I could get some useful discussion from some of the members here, because I judge many of the members here to have an opinion worth hearing.

I am grateful for "your site" and I am capable of understanding that you run it the way you seem fit, thats your devine right.

But you dont have the right to label every single person a hater who discusses the cons as well as the pros about GN'R.

That's a nice compliment to get.

It's basically what my goal has always been. Anybody, no matter where they're from, age, sex, background, religion, how long they've been a fan etc. should feel welcome here and not be afraid to post as long as they are positive, believe in and support (the current) GN'R.

I don't want people to feel scared of posting, because somebody who doesn't like that there's no album, might attack them.




And I don't.

It's a group of people who think they have the right to demand others to adjust to their needs. The band, myself etc etc.

I've tried to have discussions with these debate loving fans, but for some weird reason they turn to insults and then get all upset when they get banned after being warned several times.





/jarmo

You sound very weary Jarmo, I think you should be giving your mods written warnings for not doing their jobs properly.

You are far to important to be sifting through these threads day and night, you will end up with premature wrinkles.

Enjoy the Superbowl! : ok:

Oh lord... I thought we tried to end this on a positive note. I don't think you really read anything I wrote, nor did a few others. Reading to come back with a response is a lot different than really reading. Oh well... I tried.


After skimming this thread, I can see there's no getting through to people who slap assumptions on other fans because they don't view the world through Axl Rose tinted glasses. Then turn around and bitch about people casting assumptions on them and the band.

And remember, when you tell people to stop whining and complaining, and to get over things that happened five years ago, you're actually talking about Axl. Us whiners are much closer in the Axl Rose philosphy of life than you "positive" folks. Especially when he rants on stage every night he plays (what is a rant by the way?) isn't always the most positive person, typically feels persecuted, doesn't like being forced into a box, fighting conformity, speaking up for ones self and not cow towing to authority...Oh yeah, when Axl was bitching about ten year old bad reviews on the 2002 tour I didn't see any of you "positive" folks telling him to get over it. :o

That's because Axl Rose's rants are funny.  Yours are not.

Seriously, enough is enough.  All this arguing isn't solving anything, you're not gonna change our minds.  We're not gonna change yours.  You've made your stance quite clear.  Point well taken.  Let's move on!

What have I been saying the last few posts? Did this just strike you like an epiphany from GOD that no one is going to see things the same way? Did I not just get done saying none of us are going to see things the same way, but we needed to respect each others views? Sometimes it helps to read and understand fully what you're talking about. I asked to describe what a rant is and you ignored it to put in a little, generic jab, exactly what I just got done talking about people in this thread doing; not reading before they post. Can you do that?


BTW, what's the name of this article? Out of Patience, give us Chinese Democracy. Are you going to tell the Talking Metal and Antimusic people to stop waiting and stop complaining in their articles about wanting to hear CD? Or bitch about their speculation? Or are they not going to be allowed to have their articles, transcripts, and promos for podcasts posted here, because they won't stop whining or get on with their lives? I think they're fans too, right? What crowd do they fall under, since we're categoring fans now?

I believe you, thanks.... : ok:

The guy who wrote the article actually presents ideas to possible get the album out instead of the usual "Axl, give us a release date and put out the album".

That's constructive!




/jarmo

Hey, Jarmo. As I stated before, that is your    opinion  . Maybe others don't agree with it, so let others state their own opinion. You think you speak for GNR and you don't. Why do you think your opinion is so much better than others? That's just arrogance...Sorry......

 :rofl:

no what jarmo stated is actually a fact, check the first post yourself :hihi:

I don't want to get into petty arguments about facts. The point I was making was simply about allowing others to have different opinions than his. I do  not think it is constructive to keep up the back n' forth arguing. It's someone's opinion, it is not porn, but it differs from jarmos. just let them be heard is all im asking.

tell us why you think the article is not constructive.  That'd be still relevant.
what you're asking belongs to the admin section.

This thread is about the marketing ideas from fans point of view. for the forthcoming release.
The other thread was about cd's present status.

As far as I know axl didn't say anything about ancient events on stage in 2006 2007. 
Why so backward?
There's a suitable place for that. ie dead horse.

Now you're being as ignorant as some of the people who claim they were banned for disagreeing with me even though they clearly broke the rules of this board by insulting me.

I guess you might be one of those people since you claim the same exact things they do: That I think I speak for GN'R and that I think my opinion is better than others.

That's fucking stupid and bullshit.

I don't know why you refuse to understand that this place is for people who have similar views as myself about GN'R. Nowhere do we think out opinion is better!

I personally (not talking for GN'R) think the view is something I believe in and it feels like the right thing to do. You know, you love a band so it makes sense doe me to support them instead of put them down.

I think (personally again) that it's much cooler to be surrounded by positive supportive people than a bunch of jealous true fans who are only interested in whining and to come up with bullshit theories like "you think you speak for the band".



You obviously have some issue with me not allowing the whiners to take over the threads. Too fucking bad!

A lot of people don't agree with me, but they have the decency to actually present their opinion in an intelligent way and to think before posting (there's that horrible "theme" again) instead of attacking me for "not allowing different opinions to be heard" or the "you think you speak for the band" bullshit.


By the way, if you only come here to teach me how to run this site, you might as well just stop... It's not gonna change.



For the last time, you have no "rights" whatsoever here. You signed up by your own choice. I didn't make you sign up.

As soon as you realize that you're a guest here and adjust, the better

It's always nice to get suggestions from the visitors, but this constant fucking "you don't allow other views" bullshit is not that. You're only upset because I won't let you act like you run this place.

---

Edit: IF ANYBODY ELSE HAS ISSUES WITH HOW THIS SITE IS RUN, POST THEM IN THE RIGHT SECTION AND I'LL KEEP "DEBATING" IT WITH YOU THERE.

This particular issue is done in this thread.

There, I don't allow you to post your opinion about the site or me in this thread. How about that!


Next reply that isn't on topic, will earn you a warning.




/jarmo

Whoa....down boy.

Damn J...I thought you were unflappable. Although, I did just watch I Am Legend.

Jarmo's a zombie.

There. I've said it.

Anyway, we all love you, you're wonderful, yadda yadda.

Now give me the access code to the ban button. I'll take care of this one.

I have never been speaking negatively about GNR. I've been way too soft on how things have been handled. Just because I'm a follower and a supporter doesn't mean I can't speak up when there's something going on that I don't like. There are several things about GNR that I do not agree, for example how on earth that album still isn't out.

But it seems to me that a good fan is a positive fan at all costs on this board. It's a highly interesting approach, at best. Whiners and constant complains is one thing and they should be dealt with, but I will not sit back and be positive or happy with everything GNR does. I buy GNR records, tickets and merchendise and I am therefore qualified to disagree or voice my opinion when there's stuff going on that I don't like. My money is in this project. The idea about a forum only with positivity is not a forum I can support. A forum that does not accept discussion (note discussion!) about a big article in Classic Rock is also not a forum I can support. Unfortenately. A forum that runs with moderators that's using a downright degrading choice of words towards members is not acceptable either. Their posts should be dealt with but not in that way, no matter how frustrating it can be to read the same shit over and over again. I see it here way to often and I truly do not like this attitude and it doesn't make this forum gain more members at all.

That is MY opinion.

And if I can't discuss the article in Classic Rock and voice an opinion about it I'm sure Jarmo or any other rational person over the age of 18 can, then I'll do as Axl told us concerning GNR, "take a break". It's simply gone a bit too far here. The forum is run on ideals that isn't natural. I can go along with that, but not the arrogance and degrading tone the moderators use here. :) As Jarmo repeats in every other posts, we can go other places to discuss it. That's what I wanna do. Leave. Case closed. No problems :)

Ok, since nobody seems to read what I said and like to point out how mean we are because we have to keep telling the same shit to the same people over and over again....

Here it is again:

IF ANYBODY ELSE HAS ISSUES WITH HOW THIS SITE IS RUN, POST THEM IN THE RIGHT SECTION AND I'LL KEEP "DEBATING" IT WITH YOU THERE.

This particular issue is done in this thread.

Next reply that isn't on topic, will earn you a warning.

Thanks for reading!




/jarmo

As far as I am aware, alot of the work for CD took place in the last few years, post the Zutaut era. That makes the Classic Rock article nothing more than tabloid blood for the gossip vampires.

Zutaut doesn't make any comments regarding work that took place in the last few years. He only comments on what he experienced first-hand.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1332


You didn't exactly prove Mysteron to be wrong on any accounts.....

If sensationalist garbage is your thing, you're better of posting somewhere else.




/jarmo

I've always been a huge critic of Any supposed "Insider"

Personally, I dont believe anything Mysteron or anyone else says.

No disrespect to them, but Im still waiting on that street team. : ok:

Nice letter, I remember it. I'm glad you posted it, and still puzzled why you ban any comments from the same individual three years later.

I'm waiting for your "big guns".  : ok:

 :P




Refresh and re-read.




/jarmo

When he writes something you like, it's the gospel truth and goes in the news section. When the same person writes something you don't like, it's "sensationalist garbage" and banned from discussion. Gotcha.

Exactly!

It's no use to try to explain what sensationalism and gossip are to someone who bases his "honest opinion" on them.  ::)


I thought you were gonna stop the discussion. Why don't you keep your promise?  ???




/jarmo

Well  I'm just glad you're here to sort things out, since you apparently know more about working in the studio with Axl than his producers do.

Aren't you funny? I never said I was.

It's funny how people like you like to use the "you think you know more" excuse every time I challenge you even a tiny bit.  :hihi:


FACT: You can't tell the story of any era of the CD process without including Axl, the band or the engineers who worked on it.

You can use anonymous sources and hearsay, but it won't be "the true story about CD". It'll just be gossip and in most cases sensationalist garbage. Which is what sells copies of newspapers/magazines.


This is nothing new when it comes to GN'R. There's even a few comments about it on the Use Your Illusion albums.



/jarmo

I have a question for you Jarmo. It's not about how the site is run or anything like that and it has to do with the actual point of this thread in the first place. I know alot of people accuse you of all sorts of stuff (as you mentioned before) so please don't take this question as me thinking you know something we don't or what not.

I am curious though as to your personal thoughts on a release date. From your personal guess only, would you think we might see this album released this year?

Of course.




/jarmo

Ok cool. I meant to ask you that sometime around the time this thread got started, then obviously things got all sorts of crazy in here.

I honestly hope you're right. Not from a "GNR owes me something" standpoint, but just from a "fan that really wants more music from them" standpoint. And honestly, I sincerely hope it's extremely successful when it does happen for so many reasons.

Touche Jarmo :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:


I got em, Im just very slow at recording them. : ok:

i have to agree with that. also, same can be said of jarmo's treatment of merck. when merck was with the camp, jarmo always relied on him for things. now he's out and jarmo throws him under a bus...nice guy!

I count to 10 from now to see ya go

4 seconds left...