Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Axl Rose is a guy sitting on a 15 year old album called ?Chinese Democracy.? He has promised this thing over 2 years ago. It has been the longest worked on album in history!! After the older founding members split, Axl was left to put this potential genius album out. It was promised for March 2006 but it was Axl who pulled the plug on that one. It appears that this was enough to tick off his current label Geffen who penalized him by putting out a few Best of Guns N Roses albums out.

As the GNR fan base hungrily awaits for this new album, it appears Axl is a pure marketing genius by letting this album hype build, music leaks, do some tours, and go through a few line up changes. Even McDonalds could never achieve that. Will ?Chinese Democracy? ever live up to its release? Yes it will. Why? The album is done.

"The good news is that all of the recording for the album has been completed," the band site said once. "Drummer Frank Ferrer and guitarist Ron ?Bumblefoot? Thal integrated themselves into the recordings seamlessly and will have their presence felt."

That was nearly two years ago so the album is written, recorded, and probably mastered/mixed. It is up to Axl to release it. It will live up to all the hype I believe after hearing some leaks. That is my opinion but again does that matter at this point?

oh really?..


guess it wasn't a promise : ok:

and you have another couple of lies in your post but i'll leave that to someone else to point out :hihi:

Umm where did u get this info from??  :confused:

Heavy metal music biz.

What a poorly researched collection of bullshit.



/jarmo

Probably one of the worst posts I've ever read.  Get your facts right.

Ive been at work all day - wish I had the time to spend typing absolute drivel on here.
Im at work 9 till 6 tomorrow aswell  ::)

Wow! Are we already in 2009? :nervous:

Greatest Hits had already been out how long by time this fictional March 2006 date came around?!?!  Who wrote this crap ???

"People will hear music this year" - Axl Rose on Korns tour announcement party in early January 2006. So, yes, it was two years ago :yes:

The original post is pretty useless, though.

^ He was talking about the late statement on gunsnroses.com:

That was on March 6th 2007, not even a year ago yet. :P

Axl is nowhere near a marketing genius.


If he were a marketing Genius, he would've had the "AXL" converse line produced and made available to people all around the world. That alone cost him millions of dollars by not trying to do that.



Also, going on late and paying all the fines and overtime fees isn't smart business as they probably lost untelling how many millions of dollars.


So no, Axl is a lot of amazing things, but when it comes to marketing, I'd say no simply cause he doesn't do a lot of interviews and really doesn't put the GNR brand out there and hasn't done anything to elevate the GNR brand in over a decade.


GNR should be a money making machine.

trent reznor is a marketing genious though using axl and CD to promote himself  :hihi:

Ah, ok. My bad :D

I'd prefer the "AXL" snowblower line...

I don't care how good a marketing genius he is - it's going to be damn near impossible for him to deal with people stealing (sorry downloading) the album when it's released.  I wouldn't be surprised if this is currently what is holding the album up if it is indeed with the record company now.  They will need a very clever marketing strategy to try and circumvent people simply stealing the album and the guys not getting paid for what they created.

It's a pretty shit position for them to be in - you put your heart and soul into something for 15 years and when you finally go to share it with everyone, there is a fair chance that you will see only a fraction of the $$'s that you actually should for all your hard work because of illegal downloading.

When I first saw this thread on the Guns N Roses section, it said, "Re: Could Axl be a Marke"  and yes, I thought it was going to say, "Could Axl be a Marked Man?" 

To answer this thread's question, no.  I don't think he wants to be Gene Simmons selling everything under the sun. 

To answer what I thought was going to be the question in this thread,  I sure hope not! 

i believe the longest worked on album in history is  songwriter/musician  brian wilson of the beach boys. the smile album took over 38 years i believe to be released due to his mental illness and drug abuse. released in 2004, i believe the work started around 1964/1965. and for all those bitching about how long cd is.......smile was well worth the wait!

Get my facts right? hey i've been reading this site since you were an inch in your daddys pants, i got this article from a heavy metal website, so before you throw your toys from the pram, think to yourself i know shit.

Not my article Jarmo, Mr GNR



/jarmo
[/quote]

I've worked harder shifts myself, my dads shifts pisses all over those shifts.

In this day and age, record companies have to give people an extra incentive to go out and purchase an album, instead of just downloading it for free.

B-sides and bonus DVDs can also be easily downloaded, but what if the packaging of the album itself was so unique that both the casual and hardcore fans wouldn't be able to resist purchasing the album?

The packaging for Tool's 10,000 Days consists of a thick cardboard-bound booklet, partly covered by a flap holding a pair of stereoscopic eyeglasses, which produce an illusion of depth and three-dimensionality when the artwork inside the booklet is viewed through them.

Here is a picture of 10,000 Days so you guys and gals will be able to understand what I'm talking about:

(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/827/tool10000daysflickrge4.jpg)

While I'm sure Tool are not the first to do this, the idea itself is still brilliant.

Perhaps Gn'R should try something similar?

I'll be buying multiple copies of the album either way, but if Chinese Democracy were to come with a pair of stereoscopic eyeglasses and a kick ass booklet of artwork, I'm sure plenty of casual listeners would be intrigued enough to lay down their money on the counter for a copy or two, instead of asking for a copy from their buddy, or downloading it for free.

Because let's face it:

Music may be downloadable, but awesome album packaging and artwork isn't : ok:

Smile was not consistently worked on for 38 years, it spent more than half that time collecting dust on Brian's shelf.

Cool post - I totally agree, packaging is a big area where they may be able to entice more people to "buy" the album, by giving them something unique.  For a long time record companies have ignored packaging.  Think about when we switched from vinyl to cds.  You used to get a massive vinyl sleeve with all the artwork etc then suddenly you got a tiny cd case with a little booklet.  Right there and then people could feel justified for being ripped off from a packaging side of things and they have never really done much since.

If they get really savvy with the packaging of it and throw in other ideas like say a voucher to reduce the price of a concert ticket to see GN'R on the next tour, plus heaps of other unique things you can't get from downloading they may have a shot.   I definitely say don't package it like a regular CD, charge more for it if you have to but if it's really unique I'm sure a lot more people will buy it.

If Axl was a marketing genius he would do this:



Instead of releasing Chinese Democracy, 1 CD for 9.99 or whatever CD costs

He would get ALL of the material GNR have recorded and release it all in ONE HUGE BOX SET for like 50 bucks.  the boxset would come with the CDS, Exclusive Making of Chinese Democracy DVD, A LIVE DVD of one of the 2006 shows.  Some extra stuff like pics, pictures, whatever


Then HAVE ONE CD to market which would be a best of collection of all the songs in the boxset. Release singles/videos off of it and charge the standard 10 to 15 bucks for it.



Thats the only way to kill the downloads.


That way selling 500,000 copies at 50 bucks is like selling 2.5 million at 10 bucks.

I sure am glad D isn't on Axl's marketing team.

That is the best way to lose money.  No one is going to pony up 50 dollars for a huge boxset.

It's going to kill downloads, because no one will buy it and it won't go on the net!  :hihi:

????  I'll try to translate that in Babel Fish.. :confused: :confused:

By far the dumbest marketing ploy they could use. Anyone that isn't hardcore GNR isn't going to shell out that much cash. Axl needs to put out good music and people will by the cd , thats how I see it. I don't need any fancy package or any bs , good music is good music and its worth my time and cash.

you havent the slightest idea what you are talking about...why dont you do some research on the band before just pulling stuff out of your ass???  There has never been a DEFINITE official release date for Chinese Democracy....the closest thing to a release date was a TENTATIVE date in March of 2007.....that was never carved in stone.....do some research...i would read some of the articles archived  here on heretodaygonetohell.com or thenewguns.com....those are the only accurate sites ive found concerning GNR....

Unfortunately from what I read and sales figures etc that I see,  people like you (and me for that matter I feel the same way as you do) are in the minority.  So many people think nowadays "good music is good music and worth my time downloading - NOT paying cash for.  Just checkout sales figures for releases nowadays they are proof of this mentalilty (yeah I know some shit releases don't help but..).  LIke it or not if you want people to pay for music and not download it you gotta give em something more (as wrong as I feel this is in from a traditional point of view - it should be about the music), it's a fact of life nowadays.

Is he a marketing genius??

No. Not by a long shot. But he's good at pissing people off; fans who were planning to buy three or four copies are going to download the album now. Not that its going to be a huge faction when it comes down to it, but it will be felt.

And if the record company is holding it up, it kind of looks like he pissed them off too, so if he did have a "plan" I guess you could say it was failure.

I won't be surprised if we get some solid news saying that Axl and the label's lawyers are fighting on some court, trying to decide what share of the album's profits each one will receive.  >:( Even worse is to imagine how hard it must be to deal with every musician, making deals with each one of them about their rights over the album's royalties. o.O

I wouldn't be surprised if the record company was trying to negotiate a cut of future merchandise and concert ticket sales - that's the only place where real money can still be made in this downloading age.

The very title of this thread made me laugh!

If axl was a marketing genius, would he:
-Constantly show up late for gigs?
-Cancel tours half-way through (e.g 2002)?
-NEVER inform us about the album?
-Force out all his co-musicians?

Axl CAN   be a marketing genious

if he does the following:


Release it
at
8/8/2008
so it coincides with the CHINESE olympics,

Then he can ride the wave of hype that goes with olympics,
and also, He could steel and hotlink the official countdown to the olympics that is used on yahoo to the gunsnroses.com site..

And when the olypmics starts at 8 pm on the 8/8/2008,
He could have the albums in record stores released at the same time...

thats marketing,
riding of someone elses wave,
the best defence is offence

Hmm - not a bad shout - China is making no secret of the fact that 2008 is the year it is going to really make a huge effort to establish itself as a global player - prove it is equal to USA.  Anything linked to China might catch the zeitgeist, especially something linking China and Democracy - its human rights record and people's freedoms are its potential embarrasment so could generate additional media coverage....

Hell I am afraid to order from the GNR store.

Im afraid my order will show up a month late :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:




Ok Bad joke.............. :hihi: :-*

let's see.

The GNR camp has been selling a non existing product for over ten years now.....we bought into it....the media bought into it....they made bucks off of Chinese Democracy and no one knows if the thing even exists, let alone when it will see the light of day....

How much free media coverage did Chinese Democracy receive up until this point? Work it out.....magazine articles, tv spots...features here and there....all non commissioned by gnr....(most rumor driven, but that's beside the point)....

How many fans flocked to see those shows in 02, 06 and 07?
90% in hope that it was the big announcement of a return to greatness....almost all of those show attendants knew about Chinese Democracy, the basics of the story, and its history so far...

Wasn't Better one of the most downloaded files on the net during that week when it leaked?

Which other rock star do you know of who went out of the public eye for so long, and still, 14 odd years later stayed as popular with the media and fans as Axl Rose has?

Is Axl Rose a marketing genius?

Absolutely.
No Doubt about it.

Hell, most of the kids know more about GnR than I do(I'm an old fart). Word to the wise, read the forum before you post.

The true way to launch CD would be to offer a collectors version (not limited edition) and download version also, the fans would buy the collector version as they want more than just the music. Maybe they should include a hologram of CD to give the public the tease, as to say here it is - or is it! After all they've been doing this for years now  : ok:

The collector version would also need extra tracks and perhaps a DVD to supprt the album, I like most of you would buy something real as opposed to a file!

please tell me more about that :)

In a fleeting moment of a restless day

driven to distraction
I was captured by the game.
I have often wondered why I ever wanted to
leave these scattered hours behind me
and speed myself to you.

I choose never to forget

I want our lips to kiss and our limbs to entwine

let our bodies be twisted but never our minds.
Is this love ? Is this love ? Is
this love ? Is this love ?
Set to work idle hands
[ Lyrics found at www.mp3lyrics.org/cgQ ]
shake these thoughts

had I planned them they never would be teasing me
as viciously as these.

I would not have believed you
had I never seen

now you and I are intimately pictured
in my dreams.
I could not forsake you or gall tumbling away

and if I live in wonderland
I'm better off this way.
I choose never to forget
...

Is this love ? Is this love ? Is
this love ? Is this love ?
Is this love ? Is this love ? Is
this love ? Is this love ?

Hmm... what?

Izzy feel too dictated to by Axl
Slash quit due to Axl's legal manipulations,
Matt being sacked by Axl simply for sticking up for Slash in an argument
Duff quiting having lost faith in Axl's decisions for the band

even Gilby was sacked by Axl due to not having decent song-writing skills, despite the fact no GN'R songs had previously been released with a Gilby credit  (so Axl couldn't really sack gilby for the reasons he did)

Izzy left because:
-drug abuse within the band was getting out of hand.
-business side of the band was getting out of hand.
-too many contracts
-it was no longer a band, but a collection of over-inflated egos.


Slash left because:
-he didn't like additional guitar suggestions...Axl went against his ideas of what guitar players to hire.
-it was no longer a band


This fucker should have gotten his ass fired waaay earlier than that.


Maybe you're right there.


Gilby was always a session musician, hired to fill a void, until they could find someone proper to replace Izzy....Gilby himself said this a million times....its no secret....the fact that he was even allowed in the studio when they were writing is more than what he was expecting to get out of the deal....when huge came along, Gilby leaving was only natural....

and you're a personal friend to axl and the former members and they have told you this? that's fuckin' cool man :headbanger:

Prove me wrong then!

I don't need to, the fact that you can't prove yourself right proves that you're wrong  :)

Stick to the topic.

I see some of you are using this as yet another reason to bring back your old rumors.

Take that to Dead Horse.



Who said in 1987 that they wanted the next album to be a double?

Clearly somebody was already thinking ahead four years before that album came out.






/jarmo

ok if that's what you would like ta think.others have formed opinions lately and it isn't nice as you put it lol.but ok whatever.i think it 's kinna possitive for jarmo to knock it so fast.it's just an opinion thats all dude.

But back on topic.....

I think you need a product in stores to be considered a marketing genius. Then we'll see.

to give Axl credit however

Whoever thought of releasing UYI as two seperate discs was pure genius.

So if he is the one to come up with that idea, then yeah, i can give him mad credit for that.

Maybe it's not about marketing, but putting out enough songs in one day so you can go on a headlining tour with enough material is quite clever....





/jarmo

agreed

me too saw the article and its sequence about how McDonald should learn from him  the other day.
my impression was that the writer was a fan and meant well. and that they were basically saying it worth the wait and when the time comes people will know axl's been right throughout.

but as you see there were too many errors n flaws to bother posing here.

 :beer: But I don't think many people agree with that statement , I think someone posted early. For some reasons now a days people feel ripped off if they don't get some fancy packaging or offers inside , last time I check by a music cd was about the music..... Kind of sad what has become of it all. The days of seeing people line up for a cd release are long gone. Then again no one has really released anything good enough to wait for , but still the fact remains a lot of people now a days want a lot more then just the music on a cd.

Everyone who just read this is now stupider for having done so

Since when is 50 bucks a lot of money?

You're not kidding . Good lord , if they announced that Chinese Democracy was going to be released as a 4-Cd Monster album and would cost $100,
I guarantee you that I'd still be first on line

15 dollars for one cd

or 50 for multiple cds, dvd, tshirt, extras


50 bucks would be worth all that.


Have like the chili Peppers did for stadium Arcadium and have a DVD where the bandmembers sit around and discuss each song and how they wrote it etc.

Since people aren't even willing to pay 15 bucks for a CD these days.

Allegedly six out of ten Radiohead fans paid nothing for their latest album......

And the rest only a few dollars.

But I guess the real fans all got the boxset too.



/jarmo

Radiohead made more money on this CD that the previous 3, however it is a much better album so it's not such a fair comparison. Thom York of Radiohead is definately a genius, "All I Need" from the new album is evidence of that.

Now, regarding the original post question: Could Axl Be A Marketing Genius?

He could, but whomever is handling CD right now isn't in my opinion. Any genius would have released CD 10 years ago when it would have been truely groundbreaking. Of course, it wasn't that simple. These days the number one comment I get from casual GN'R fans and non-fans when I play it for them, and there have been many, is that it sounds cheesy and dated. I have had no less than 20 people say that, nobody says "Wow that will blow peoples minds!" Sadly, I agree with them with the exception of a couple of songs. Thus, I hope alot has been changed from the demos, cause every song has amazing potential in the right producer's hands.

You aren't thinking the big picture , sure all hard core fans , most any one on this site will shell out 50 even 100 bucks for that special stuff , but to a casual fan and or unknowning fan they just want the CD and they don;t want to pay very much for it sadly.

If you believe that more people care or even more interested in this album NOW as opposed to 1.5 years ago, then I guess you could be on to something calling him a marketing genius, as if all of this were somehow planned , or mapped out.

Right around the time of the leaks and the Hammerstein shows was the time to do it, if it were actually possible.  Doing what he has done , and making the decisions he has made since those Hammerstein shows or even since that successful tour outside of the USA, has done absolutely NOTHING to make this album any more anticipated and may actually have dampered the mood and dedication of some of his more devoted fans , in my opinion.

Most bands go on a headlining tour after their second album.

Even if Use Your Illusion was one album, I'm sure they would have had enough material to go on a headlining tour.

Skid Row was really big at the time and they were opening for GNR in support of their second album...

were they still able to download/buy it?

Yeah, and did they ever go on a headlining tour?

Not that I'm aware of.

They were probably still opening for other bands in support of their third album..


Yeah, for the downloadable version, fans were allowed to pay as little or as much as they wanted, while the physical album costs the exact same as any new release.

Yeah, Soundgarden opened for them...  In 92 they headlined in support of Slave to the Grind - indeed!

Maybe it's the warm crack pipe that I just smoked or maybe this thread makes absolutely no sense.

Since when did we go from talking about Axl's marketing genius to headlining tours, etc? Regardless, only hardcore
fans buy box-sets. Most people don't even buy the band's albums, they buy the greatest hits. One of my friends supposedly "loves"
Guns N' Roses, but he doesn't own either of the Illusion albums. He doesn't know the songs "Estranged" or "Rocket Queen".

Go figure.

This thread hasn't made any sense since the very first post . . .  This thread should be taken out and shot.  :drool:

True, but most bands didn't have an album out like AFD.....

But they had the option of playing a full set with only new songs if they felt like it.





/jarmo

To compare GNR with other bands releasing a 2nd album is just ridiculous.


Did someone actually mention Skid Row in the same breath as GNR?



Skid Row were never a fraction as popular as GNR.

No? 

That's a bold statement.

Again.

Every song we've heard with the exception of Better was written sometime between 1997 and 2000 so I guess if people think it's dated, that may be why.  Although I don't really understand the notion that it's "dated".  Rock music period is dated, you're not going to do anything within the genre that hasn't been done before.  Most of the songs just sound like UYI era GnR with more electronic elements.  Songs like The Blues, TWAT (latest leak), Madagascar, IRS, Catcher, if you heard them not knowing anything about GnR wouldn't sound out of place in the 70's, 80's, or 90's besides maybe some small elements.  The only song that would blatantly sound out of place in earlier genres of rock would be Better and I suppose Chinese D, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But it definitely has a very modern sound while the rest of it is pretty timeless.  Though Better was the only song we've heard that was written from 2001 forward so nobody outside the camp even knows what the songs written 2001-2007 sound like, the stuff written after Richard and Buckethead were both in the band has been unheard aside from Better.  Guess what I'm saying is that the songs people think are dated are  actually 8-10 years old so in that sense they're right but then again I'm not sure what people expect, there's nothing new under the sun especially in the rock genre

Ive played the new songs for a lot of people....................... no song blew anyone of them away. :nervous:



That doesn't mean a lot but they are casual GNR fans, people who can't name the members etc probably have no clue there is even a new band etc.


Axl could be a marketing genius.


I have a feeling for CD to be successful, he is gonna have to be.


He definitely has the makings of one, the Trilogy videos were definitely great marketing.

Well to be honest how much stuff do you play that "blows people away"?  It's one of the most, ahem, overblown statements out there.  I mean most people who are rock fans have heard so many great and classic albums they're not going to be "blown away" by something in 2008 no matter how good it is.  Everyone I have played it for has given some form of positive feedback but aren't blown away, nor are the same people blown away by songs like Locomotive, Coma or Estranged.  Only the hardcore GnR fans are the ones who recognize the greatness of those songs, the casual rock fan or casual GnR fan would prefer to listen to one of the big hits than any of those.  Most casual fans aren't going to go crazy about it, until there's a hit on the radio.

Sorry dude, but that sounds like a cop out.

In todays style of music,
probably very very very few songs that we have , from the leaks, would really blow any of the general public away...

Look at shit bands/"musicians " Mika, rihanna, britney , fall out boy etc
they make absolutely shit music, but it apeals to the public cause of the songs "hooks"

Thats where some of the gnr leaks fail, is they dont have strong enough hooks in my opinion, but the music and lyrics are better,

Gnr dont make pop songs, so they dont appeal to the vast majority of the market

Cop out from what?  What's the last album you played for someone that "blew them away"?   I've had friends who said they love GnR and stare blankly when I mentioned some of the less well known songs, and I'll play them Estranged or Locomotive and say something like "it's pretty good", and these are some of the best songs I've ever heard in my opinion.  Better has gotten an overwhelmingly good response from people and a lot of people have said that the new stuff is "a lot better than they thought it would be" but I wouldn't say anyone was blown away.  Though I can't think of anything I've ever played for someone that they said "blew them away" or just freaked out about how amazingly great it was.  That's just not how most people are

^
Thats the attitude that this forum has and its a huge mistake in the grand scheme of things.

THEY HAVE TO HAVE a WTTJ,SCOM,PC, NR for this album to be successful.

U think November Rain wasn't instantly loved before it hit the radio?


So far, out of what we've heard, they have nothing Id call a classic song.  Madagascar maybe......... well to me it is.



That in my opinion has alot to do with why CD has taken so long.


U dont replace an iconic legendary band, keep the name and release good material

It has to be fucking great and Axl knows that which in a way makes him a marketing genius cause he isn't gonna release it till he feels it is great.

Besides your fucking atrocious spelling, you are incredibly wrong. About everything.

Firstly, just because Joe Blow doesn't think it's amazing or "blow away" doesn't mean that their opinion is right. The movie 'The Departed' is one of the greatest films in recent years but many people that I know that saw the movie didn't think it was 'anything special'. However there is the group who realizes what an amazing film it is, for it's cinematography, it's funny and well written script, great editing, etc. They know what composes something great. If the founding fathers of the United States didn't think that the general populace were intelligent enough or dedicated enough to find the best choice to properly govern the country, do you think that most people are capable of realizing what is music good or not? No. That's why a hell of a lot of people have bad taste and a lot of people are losers.

Secondly, Welcome the Jungle, one of the greatest rock n' roll songs ever written was bashed by critics and poorly received upon release. GN'R, one of the freshest, rawest bands out there that eventually gave rock a kick in the proverbial balls was looked over. It wasn't until Sweet Child got a ton of airplays and a bunch of teeny-bopping girls thought that Axl was 'so hawt' until GN'R started to catch on. Oh, and they were the people who thought that Paradise City was a happy song.

So inclosing, taste is something that you have to acquire over a extended period time to appreciate. It's easy to point fingers and say this or that now, but when the GNR-Train gets moving trust me there will be a bunch of bandwaggoners jumping on board. It's erroneous to even discuss how the reaction will be off of demos, but songs like 'Better' have amazing hooks with pseudo-pop appeal, 'The Blues' has a eye-watering tone of reflection, and 'Madagascar' is a tale of redemption. So far "Chinese Democracy" from the demos and live performances is shaping up to be an amazing album to please casuals, hardcores, and critics alike.

So in summation, taste is something that you gain but just because you really like something doesn't mean that you are owed anything. Most people will buy or see or listen to what the big black squeekin' box tells them to. If it has flash and glitz, they'll give their money to it. GNR isn't going to have anything like Jungle or Paradise City on it because the band isn't trying to remake Appetite.

They're going for something new, something raw, something fresh. Maybe this time they'll get looked over like they almost were in '87, but atleast they're betting the house.

The majority of Better could have been written before 2000.

Just because Buckethead was on the demo doesn't mean the song wasn't a work in progress before he arrived.

Axl did say the song was written by Robin afterall..


While they might not be classified as pop songs, virtually every Gn'R song has pop elements in it.

That's one of many reasons why their music appeals to a broader audience outside of rock listeners.

My grandparents for example.

That's true, anything is possible.  What I was getting at is that all in all, out of the songs we have heard, Better is the only one that might have been written after the year 2000.  Madagascar, Silkworms, Rhiad, The Blues, and Chinese Democracy all debuted in January 2001.  Oh My God was released in 1999.   CD, IRS, TWAT, Catcher, The Blues, were all heard by Rolling Stone in 1999 and discussed in the January 2000 issue.  The only song we've heard that might have been written after the year 2000 is Better.  So to me, calling the songs dated, though I don't necessarily agree with it, it's good to keep in mind that even if someone finds the new songs dated, well they are all 8+ years old and we haven't heard much if anything that was written from 2001-2007.  The reason I suspect Better is newer is because it's the most modern sounding song and was never mentioned in earlier interviews, nor did it surface when many of the rumored track titles that turned out to be real were floating around

Attrocious spelling?

Exactly what did I spell wrong?

Fans like u are fucking dillusional if you think CD will be a success without some hits on it.  I applaud your blind loyalty but without a kick ass HIT first single, this album is going to fucking BOMB.


None of the leaks are radio friendly singles, shit that is gonna make the masses buy the album.  What people like yourself don't realize is, WE, The hardcore GNR fan Dont fuckin matter.


If you READ MY PREVIOUS FUCKING POST, u would see that I said what my friends say doesn't matter, but it is an opinion of people who are casual fans that love a lot of the old stuff.

I've had about 20 people say the same shit.  Axl sounds great, lyrics are great but it just doesn't sound like GNR.

we'd love shit if Axl did a fuckin spoken word album over a woodblock.

For this incarnation of GNR to have longetivity and to carry on the GNR legacy, they have to make an INCREDIBLE FUCKING ALBUM.

It can't be good, it can't be ok, it has to be groundbreaking and just awe inspiring to justify the time put into this.

Axl already has 2 and a half strikes against him just on his rep, the new band using the same name and the long wait for this cd, so anything less than Led Zeppelin IV mixed with The Wall mixed with AFD level music is gonna have a hard time going over and getting the credit it deserves.

It is going to take way  more than the 20,000 or so die hard message board loyalists to make this album and this band stay around for awhile successfully.

To believe otherwise is fooling yourself.


So Axl is a marketing Genius cause he knows this and is making sure everything is in place and perfect before releasing it.

D, you honestly think Better would have been a hit?  I think that it would've been a huge hit if they'd released the album earlier.  I think it's been in circulation too long now, but that song has a lot of the characteristics of the what made GnR popular despite not sounding like old GnR.  It is very catchy, it has a pop element but is still heavy enough to rock hard.  But, at this point it may have been leaked too long ago to be a viable single which is a shame

I'm not saying that the album can be "okay" can get away with it. I'm saying from what we've heard, it's more than on track to being an amazing album.

And like ShotgunBlues has said, 'Better', atleast in the poppy demo form is the definition of 'radio-friendly'. What about I.R.S.? Not as good of a hook as Better, but very memorable. With the exception of TWAT and Chinese, I'd say all of the new material is radio-friendly.

My point was that people who say the new material isn't good don't know what they're talking about or they are hanging onto the past. I agree that GNR needs something that will gain mass appeal and help get the word out that GNR is back. They need good marketing and promotion and then the album itself will speak and promote itself in many ways. I've talked about it before that GNR needs to grab a new era of fans and in many ways it's done that. A lot of kids like GNR and are sharing that with their friends. That needs to steadily increase and they need to somehow attract girls. I think "The Blues" will help that a lot and from what little Axl has said about "This I Love", so will that.

One thing they need to mirror in a 21st century makeover way is release a 'hardcore' song like Jungle was, but later one like Sweet Child.

My beef was with you talking about the new songs. They're great. Most people think they're great. But if you play them for your friends and they don't like them, it doesn't matter. Either they have poor taste or are jaded by the history of the album. Regardless of people having poor taste, if they see "Guns N' Roses - Chinese Democracy....." on TV with some boobs and shiny graphics or put a song on their favorite TV Show, they'll buy the album or at least download a song.

How many people saw Spiderman 3? A lot of people. But that movie sucked. A decent amount of people don't care or don't know that the old lineup broke up. But if you put "Guns N' Roses" on the screen, people are probably going to want to see what it is. They have AFD and UYI going for them, most people will want to see CD because they've come to expect good stuff from Guns N' Roses. Maybe it's the mythos behind it.

^

See we disagree though

I think IRS is maybe the worst GNR leak. 


Like I said about my friends, I acknowledged it meant nothing but it just shows a small opinion of some casual fans and I hope that isn't how other casual fans feel.


Cause  you all have to remember, our opinions don't hold much weight.  Especially when u consider IRS to be this massive amazing hit song. Cause honestly it isnt.


U talk about me saying the songs arent good cause of my friends opinions and then u come on here speaking for the majority of the world saying everyone thinks these songs are great.

how do u know what everyone thinks?

U know what hard core GNR fans think but of course they are gonna praise the songs. Thats what fanatics do.

But, I will say this.  IRS may be a "mid-tier" type of song in the recorded version.  But after seeing them live 3 times in 2006, IRS is a top 5 live song, new or old, live.  It's an amazing song live.  Not that that has anything to do with sales, hit potential, or single success, but it is a fucking bad ass live song

Agreed with ShotgunBlues.

IRS as performed in 2006 is a great song. It's got a great pseudo-Nevermind tinge and really hard, rip-roaring vocals.

I speak for many because of the hardcore, my friends, and the large handful of individuals that I've shared the songs with (usually with a strong, professional music background). That includes the entire hard rock radio station and media company that I used to work for. Either they really enjoy them or see the promise in them. A couple of them (myself included) didn't really care for Axl trying to reinvent our favorite band, but after seeing them in 2002 and later 2006, we were won over. I'm not a blind Axl-loyalist as you paint me to be.

There was a pretty good spread in age and lifestyles from teenagers at my nephew's high school, older music fans, moms to metal-heads. Overall I probably talked to 150 or so people. I get around. My legs are usually open.

D, to be fair there is a big possibility that he's sitting on an amazing song(s) that will blow everyone away. Isn't that what's been speculated about Prostitute?


Where have they made a penny from Chinese Democracy? Everyone going to see the band is going because it's Guns N Roses. The majority don't care who the band is, they just want to hear Axl Rose singing the old songs. Not one person went to a concert because of an album they never heard of, they went because of Axl and the band. If you remember, there were people going to the shows unaware that it wasn't the same band, and people from this very message board were having to tell people at the venue that it was just Axl, there was a new band, and there was an album called Chinese Democracy.


Axl gets made fun of the majority of the time about it!!! That's not good publicity! It was mysterious in 2002, now its a joke. Hopefully the album, if its released, will change that...


Again: People go to shows to see Axl not because of some album they've never heard. Not as many people have downloaded the leaks as you think, and even fewer (not saying they're aren't to give you benefit of the doubt) were inspired so much by them to suddenly jump on the new bands fanwagon.


He is still popular because he was a "real" musician who actually meant something. But the level of popularity that he has will do nothing to help sell millions of copies of CD. He doesn't have a very good reputation on top of it.

jeez, such hostility....


I like the leaks.   Just about all of them w/ the exception of CITR. 

And the reason that none of the leaks are "hits" yet, is because they aren't final versions.  I'll bet my balls (ok, i lied.  no i won't) that CD rocks when it is finally released.  Until then, i remain waiting faithfully.

Personally, i think some of the new leaks are better than some of the old stuff.  Maybe not better, but i find myself listening to them more.

I love the guitar work.

There ya go again with the double standard bullshit

My friends hated them but their opinions dont count

your friends loved them so automatically they are great.

U can't argue with that logic.


IRS is not a top 5 GNR song new or old. That is straight fuckin dillusional.

The only way u can say that is simply cause the old songs are so worn and played out that a new song is more refreshing to hear. I myself will shoot myself in the skull and lick up the blood if  hear some of the AFD songs live again.

Dude, I never said it was a top 5 GnR song.  I said that live it was one of their top 5 performances of every show I went to.  The song is huge live and Axl goes 100% on the vocals, it was one of the highlights of each show I went to in 2006, just a big and bad ass performance at all 3

Of all the leaks I have played to my friends, which include both heavy Slash-fans and average listeners, only The Blues has got praises. Catcher in the rye came close, but none of the other songs have gotten any notice.

I hope that possible first single is a You could be mine-type rocker, that's what gets attention.

I was thinking about this the other day- when the new songs became 'available' I listened to them a ton and thought 'wow, this is the best thing I've heard for a long time' and played them more than the AFD or Illusion songs for a while. But very suddenly I stopped, went back to the older stuff without really realising it, and haven't listened to them much, if at all since (apart from on the boot of the show I went to).
And to be perfectly honest, I'm not really that fussed, even having relised that, nor do I feel compelled to listen to them again right away.
For me the novelty of new songs, along with the rose coloured glasses that came with them, has worne off, and in honesty, I havent really given them another thought.
Now, I can't wait for CD, because I can't wait for new music from one of my favorite bands. So I'm not 'jaded by the history of the album', in fact that history could have made me blindly love them. So does that mean I have poor taste according to you? I certainly don't think so, I think I have great taste in music (my oppinion of course!), and my taste is all that matters to me. So what is it then that has made me tire of the songs? Perhaps that they don't have the longevity of other, older songs to me. Perhaps they don't have the 'wow' factor of the older stuff, which has made them timeless.
Now, don't get me wrong. I like all of the new songs, and I like the current line up (it's the only one I've seen after all), and I loved the new songs when they first came out. But after a bit of time I have sort of 'gotten over' them.

Now, people who don't like the new songs 'don't know what they are talking about'? Who the hell are you, I, or anyone to dictate whoes oppinions, or musical tastes are correct? Or hanging onto the past? My good buddy is a GnR fan, but not a die hard- ie. he likes the songs, doesn't care about the history or line up. I got him to get the new stuff, and sure he thought it was good, but not up to the classics standard, nor do they get regular play. So what's his excuse then?
People not liking the new songs do matter. People aren't sheep. If they were they would have seen the sticker on Libertad and thought 'hmm, ex GnR guys new album' and got it, just because of the tag. But a lot of people didn't like the songs, and yep, it mattered.

It's going to take more than just 'boobs' and a GnR add on TV to sell the album. They do need a big hit(s) that can stand on its own merit and just not rely on the Guns N' Roses name tag. And I reckon Axl and the boys owe it to themselves to do that.

I have friends who are casual fans-my brother went to 2 shows with me to see new GNR-I like the new band a lot, but the first single is going to have to be good otherwise this album could sink fast

Some people usually forget that what we have heard are unfinished demos not the definite tracks. These songs might have changed.

I like the new songs, but they have to pick the one that is most radio friendly-they are not going to be marketing to us (the die hards)

like better. yep the new songs are fresh enough for the people who don't come to these fan forums, after all.


and you're straight fucking arrogant to think anyone who doesn't share the same music taste with you is straight fucking delusional.

Irs is one of pinnacles of hard rock.  My opinion  and in my opinion the public will be with me later.

So you're making assumptions on "the hits" on Chinese Democracy based on unfinished demos of tracks that might not even be considered to be singles (excluding Better which might be/have been a single)?


Do you also play your friends songs like Anything Goes, You're Crazy and Out Ta Get Me to get an opinion on Appetite For Destruction?

How about Shotgun Blues, So Fine, Pretty Tied Up and Get In The Ring to get an opinion on Use Your Illusion II?





/jarmo

too lenient.
why not play unfinished demos or live recordings of those songs to 'do justice' to the albums.

True.

Like the demo of Bad Obsession with just Izzy and a drum machine. ;)



/jarmo

HA, is this even a real topic?

Axl Rose is not a marketing genius. The year IMO was 2006 to release this bitch.

They were touring, hype was at a all time high with some leaks, and they croaked.

i don't really care what excuses Gn'R has. It's been too long for something that will be awesome to have, but NOT worth the wait.

Plain.. simple... easy. He's not a marketing genius.

Ive only read the first page of this thread, so if im repeating what someone else has said, then sorry.

But: WTF? You should have known this was infact, shit, and therefor should have known not to add it to a forum filled with more bullshit threads. Spend time contributing to the decent ones. :)

Jarmo, as for playing the non-single AFD songs, I don't have to because everyone has heard them allready and everyone loves them. Nearly anyone born in the mid to late 70's know every lyric on that album. Light up a jukebox with any song in any bar in America and people in that bar 30 and above will be mouthing the lyrics, guarenteed. Any song on that album is single worthy, that's why the album is timeless.

3 out of 4 of those illusion songs you named are disgraceful... we don't need more GN'R if it's gonna sound like that bile. Illusions are not timeless, 50% of the material wasn't CD worthy, that's just my opinion. However, AFD is still charting, illusions aren't.

Most if not all of the new demo's are not on par with AFD demos. They are consistent with illusion demos in my opinion, that's not a horrible thing but it isn't great.

Didn't they even like the song 'Chinese Democray'? That's quite a typical Gn'R rocker that sounded like the old era of the band could have written.

Oi!, I love Pretty Tied Up!

For me the Illusions are timeless, I say this because I still listen to them and they still sound great. Very dynamic and warm sound on these albums. Something you don't get with new bands.

Out Ta Get me is a great GNR song



Yeah they are demos but IRS needs some kind of riff immediately

So lets hope they put something in

Problem I have with some of the leaks is

It sounds like a bunch of different song ideas copy and pasted together via pro Tools sometimes. It doesnt sound like some of the songs were written from beginning to end.

It sounds like various jam sessions copy and pasted together with some lyrics on top.

wow the subject has changed a bit..


D, IRS have a riff  : ok:  it's maybe not as "clear" or significant as the better riffs and the CD riff, but there's a riff.. how can a musician like you not recognize it?  ;)

the finished products will sound a bit (a lot) different, just by listening to early 06 bootlegs and then bootlegs from the last summer you can hear a lot of new stuff, there is a bit more synth and piano amd different drumming in IRS, BBF's solo in it has just gotten better and better, and in better there's a really cool guitar"drive" in the breakdown that wasn't there before and during the "na na na" part there's also a new guitar thingie that follows the "na's" ( :hihi:) i'm guessing that's what BBF and frank added during their recording sessions and will be on the record

I'm not feeling that "various jam sessions copy and pasted together with some lyrics on top." at all

whithout overrating the songs i've heard as of yet i can honestly say that i believe this will IMO be the best record ever made.

PTU is the second best song on II....and the izzy bad obsession demo is ace...............

The only song that is possible of fitting that description Is Better,
It seems like Axl, in that song, just wanted to try and force a vocal and musical rhytm.

For instance :



And the Pitman Breakdown in the middle of the song,
Imo , Totally stuffs the flow and rythem of the whole song,
its too out of place and doesnt flow with the rest of the song, and I kind of cringe when I listen to it on the leaks,
but once again, seeing it LIVE does it justice...

but overall Better is a kick ass song, although the flow is usually interupted just when you really start getting into it,


and I dont really know how people can make fair judgements on here based on the few leaks we have,
on regards to if Chinese Democracy will succeed or fail.

You have no reall basis,
use your logic,

1. Theirs at least 7 unheard songs probably, such as prostitute/this I love/ Thyme/seven
that we havent heard yet, and they are probably as good OR BETTER then the leaks we have... considering how all the people that have heard them
such as Moby and the likes, all said how great and electric "fire and ice" the songs are:

2. The songs we have are leaks,
not final versions, Axl layed some more vocals last year which was probably after the leaks that we have, so the songs could have more aggression and
edgyness to em, I admit at the moment, the songs sound boring cause they dont really have that raw Hard hitting edge that only Axls clear and masterd vocals can produce...

Im not saying Chinese democracy will succeed, and Im not saying its going to bomb,

all I am saying is that no one should say one way or another, untill it comes out, cause anything you do base it on,
isnt logic, its just utter bullshit  :beer:

IRS does not have a riff

It has a chord progression but not really a memorable good riff at all.


Axl's rhyme on better is a different rhyme scheme. The last word is the same but the words throughout each line rhyme so its ok.

I like the riff in IRS, it's black sabbath meets body count (there goes the neighborhood) and it's not used through out the song, which I like.

To my ears "Better" and "IRS" are the two most obvious candidates for first single of the material we've heard so far.  I liked "IRS" right away.  It's a relatively simple song but it's catchy as hell and it works (in my opinion).  "Better" was almost a lot to take in on first listen but after awhile I fell in love with the song and also started seeing it's commercial potential.  I think what both of those tracks have in common is a good dose of old school GNR snarl but done in a way that is firmly influenced by the twenty first century.  Same with "T.W.A.T".  I understand those modern production flourishes may not be for everybody, but I could definitely see these songs getting a lot of airplay on modern rock radio.  Shit, they already kinda have!  "The Blues" would make a really good second or third single as it's the most old school (as in "Illusion" era) GNR sounding and also seems to be the most popular of the leaks outside the hardcore GNR community.  Point being, I think any one of these songs could go a long way in winning over people on the fence, as well as some of the non-believers.  The quality and the commercial potential are there.

And I apologize in advance for another lengthy post, but I just wanted to say on the subject of UYI that I never saw the handful of album tracks that some deride as "filler" as taking away from the overall quality of the album.  There's definitely a handful of tracks on the "White Album" and "Exile On Main Street" that would never be considered hit single material or even standout tracks, but they do work in the context of the album, helping to make the finished piece what it is.  And I've always kinda looked at UYI the same way.  Not to mention some of those lesser known tracks are of pretty high quality, but that's another story.  :)

The first time I heard the leaks, I was in love with 'IRS' immediately. The more I listened to them 'CD' grew on me and is my favorite now, but IRS was still great and will be for me.

Order for me would be: CD, IRS, Blues, Better, Maddy, and CITR.

all the leaks have become painfully average to me.  I'd say TWAT is the one I'd want to hear the most followed by IRS.  I think all of them sound leaps and bounds better when heard live.

I hope CD is packing more than we've heard in the leaks though  :-\

You havent answered my question,
when you talk about the "songs sounding like they have been copied and pasted together"
which songs exactly are you talking about?

I dont understand,
the blues, twat, chinese democracy, irs, catcher, better (apart from the breakdown) dont even sound like that what so ever,
Your post doesnt make sense

I think that's the same guy who then in 2006 claimed that "the only way to even survive as a band was to do this double thing..."



M.

Well, no one said "I don't like this !", but they just said it's boring, no hooks. The Blues has gotten cheers from everyone, there has been no doubt or questions, just aplodes  :D

Better has blown away several folks I know personally...especially folks who don't really know or listen to GNR. 
A friend of my bro-in-law who's a big Stones fan loves There Was a Time over all others, but was amazed Axl hasn't released the album because all the songs are good.  (I didn't sample Silkworms or OMG)  Madagascar, Boston '02 surprised him because he didn't realize at first that it was un-edited live.  People don't realize how much range Axl's got.

Marketing genius?  Honestly, I think the long wait has nothing to do with marketing and all to do with fucked-up circumstances.  :(

He's going to have to do a ton of interviews and obviously the music will have to be good, esp the first single-Axl will have an interesting story to tell, so he will get a lot of attention-whether that translates into album sales is another thing-I like the new band but some of the people I work with, my friends, the new album is going to be a tough sell-a hit song can change that

I'm willing to think too that a powerful first single is more important than clever advertising. Axl's interviews might take second place...

How does this fuck-tard have 4 stars?  He's not even a GnR fan...
"Illusions are not timeless, 50% of the material wasn't CD worthy"
What a cockless fuckmuppet.

^fyi, man, the number of stars is based on the post count.  : ok:

Quick show of hands,
dos anyone here see chinese democracy coming out this year?

i.e does anyone think it will ,I just wanna see what the whole morale is in here..

COULD he be? Sure. IS he? No.

Honestly...not really.  :-\ However, way back in 2006 I didn't expect much either... then I heard the band would go on tour and I was lucky enough to attend a couple of shows.
I  don't spend my time wondering when/if it will be released anymore. I believe it will be released but I'm tired of speculating on hypothetical release dates...  I trust the band. When the time will come, we'll know.  : ok:

On topic : Axl  is a reluctant 'marketing genius'  :P

Haha, I'm not a GN'R fan? Why because I listen to thier music objectively? Listen bub, I've been listening to GN'R since '88 and I was 14 then.

As for the name calling, I know you wouldn't say any of that shit to my face without waking up in a hospital. I've been doing MMA for about 6 years. The internet is a like a girl and you are hiding behind her. Eitherway, you opinion is you opinion and it doesn't mean shit to me.

All I want from GN'R is a strong album, the tracks Jarmo listed, IMO are not good songs. I liked TSI better than the Illusions, again that's my opinion. If that angers you, then enjoy the high blood pressure and type your cowardly bullshit about me on this forum.

What I find really funny is that you are jealous of my stars, LOL! On a forum no less. I guess you haven't got much going on in real life.

FYI, not that anyone cares, but when I said the new demos were on par with the illusion demos, I mean on par with the 50% that were CD worthy. The exception being The Blues, I think that song is reflective of Axl's best work. If the Illusions were one CD, with the singles and a selection of the really good stuff, like Locomotive, I think they would still be charting today.

The illusion albums could easly have been halved. Many believe that. My problem with doing that would be that i like a lot of the longer songs. The 3/4 longest, probably.

No. It's all just a big conspiracy.

No . . .  Maybe some lawsuits related to it, but no CD.

i wouldn't worry about the shitty state of the record industry... there are new methods to distribute music and axl should take advantage of them.  for starters he should do anything he can to a new song on the new guitar hero.  this is a great way to advertise... then make the song available on itunes as a single with a couple of bsides..   and then release the album just before the a tour.  clearly the internet and itunes is the most popular way too distribute music.  i only buy cds that i want to collect.. most bands that i'm a casual fan of i just buy off itunes.   i think the album will sell well anyways.. but i think this method would promote it more as a "new" album.. and not just some new release from an old band

As much as I love, respect, and admire Axl I'm gonna have to say no.

A decade-in-the-making album still with no definite sign of life, a comeback (that failed), & two tours without an album in 17 years do not a marketing genius make.

I don't think it will come out this year or next year, and I doubt we will see or hear Axl at all in 2008.

Thats optimizism for you!  :beer:

I just hope we hear from Axl in the next few months, or I think it would be safe to say theirs probably no big "news" coming out this year

Oh but it does, you listed the points, everybody knows of the Legend that IS Chinese Democracy, all he needs now is to release the thing and the jobs a good 'en.

Withj the Olympic games being in China, the release will be about a month before hand, TV stations all over the world will then use CD - The song as to help promote Their (the TV stations) coverage. Anybody remember Italia 90 for the football (Real football, not the Rugby for softies ;)) , Nesan dorma was used world wide.... Sold millions as a result.

Just adding a comment to the release, the intro (as leaked) would be a fantastic backdrop to olympic news then the minute mark launch into the song would provide loads of opportunities to show action sequences, anybody agree...

Or even a few months beforehand. Me too think the release better precede 08/08/08.

i can't honestly see the olympics having GnR as a song.


not at all.

No but it will be broadcast world wide.

As most fans already know, GN'R is known for doing things their way.

Not necessarily a marketing strategy, more like an attitude.


Which often leads to people saying things like "why don't they..... like other bands?". The answer is: Because they're GN'R!  ;D




/jarmo

I?ve always loved this " hey, this is me, you take it or leave it" attitude.  :)

Skid Row was never nearly as big as GNR...that it true.GNR was the biggest band on the planet at that time..but they were pretty popular as far as most rock bands go....they sold millions of records and SLave to the Grind debuted at number 1 on the billboard charts(thanks in part to an opening slot on GNR's tour)