Here Today... Gone To Hell!

RollingStone's rock daily section is reporting a story from antimusic.com about Geffen having CD.? We may have started this rumor.

(antiMusic) The latest rumor swirling around Guns N' Roses is that the long over-due "Chinese Democracy" is complete and with the label but a new battle has emerged that is causing further delay.
We don't know how much stock to put into third or fourth generation rumors, but the word on the street is that Axl has turned in the CD to Geffen at long last but no release date is in sight because Axl and the label can not agree on the marketing of the album.

Are we closer to Chinese Democracy? We have no idea but we are hopeful. We have yet to hear back with the official denials or "no comment" from the GNR or Geffen camp but we'll keep you posted on what we hear officially or hearsay. Again this is all but rumor at this point , besides rumors are more fun than official news anyway.

Original Source
http://www.antimusic.com/news/08/jan/10GNR_Finish_CD.shtml

Same Story
http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily

I think it is true but we will have to wait and see. So what if we started the rumor? Someone needs to push something in one direction or the other. Besides, maybe one of the camps will confirm the information so we finally know that it is true. I hope they confirm instead of saying No Comment. It would at least be nice to know it's there and marketing is the only deal now. If you hear any confirmation or reply at all, please post.
Thanks.

who knows about the label actually having the album but there is def some truth about the whole promotion/marketing situation.

Bach has mentioned in a few of his radio interviews that Axl is trying to figure out the best possible way to release CD in this new era of music. I made a thread some time ago about this and was interested to see some ideas on how you think the band should release and promote the album in this new musical landscape.  I think it got moved(shocker ;D)

If this is the only major hurdle thats left in this saga then I think we have a legit shot fo getting the album out sometime this year. I am sure Axl and the label can come up with something in the next few months.

my parents didn't have sexual organs....they had rope.

it's interesting that Rolling Stone is reporting on these rumors. the poor journalism is a given but I would think that they heard something more than a rumor from an unofficial fansite (no offense).

I have to be blunt here..........what is so hard about marketing this release?

The myth surrounding it alone will cause great awareness.

Give a firm date 3 months or so in advance.

Play some serious live shows on television (Late Night/Awards Shows) and schedule a major world tour.

Make some ads, go on the radio, do some interviews, update the GNR website and make it have a shitload of stuff on it.

Perhaps a making of Chinese Democracy special on VH1.

Put it on iTunes with a bonus track.

Poster the fuck out of cities and put a giant billboard up in NYC and LA with the album date.

Really, I don't know what more there is to do to possibly market an album other than Axl going to every persons house and knocking on their door saying, "Buy this fucking album or I'll kick your teeth in".

To add......why not do a soundtrack release for a song, much like "You Could Be Mine".......that caused great awareness before UYI came out.  By the time it was released on UYI2....I probably heard the song 9000 times, destroying the cassette single.

Should release it on 8 track, and have a factory producing 8 track players to go with it..... :rofl: No feeker would see that coming would they.

Because what you proposed makes too much sense

Maybe Axl wanted to release a song along with a movie like Angels and Demons, but the writers strike is preventing anything from happening.

I think its all about the budget.  And for all we know, if these sides can't agree then CD could be shelved for a long time to come. 

Assuming the above mentioned is true, the next issue is: Who pays for it all?



If you've worked hard on something, you don't want some half-assed promotion.

If you're a record company in 2008, you want to make money without spending any.


Why do you think they love to release "Best Of" albums after "Best Of" album?



/jarmo

Yeah, i think it would have been a lot easier with that "plan" 6-10 years ago.

Nowadays the recordcompanies are in troubles with low record sales and the internet.

1. GNR will never play Late Nights or Award Shows ever again. Possibly a big award show, but I doubt it.
2. From my knowledge, the relationship between Axl and VH1 is estranged. Mostly due to that inaccurate, slanderous filth they called "Behind the Music", so I doubt there will be anything on VH1 (atleast accurate).

I think that the buzz will be incredible for hardcore music fans and industry professionals, however that's not who they promote for. They promote for the people on the fence or the people that have no interest and/or knowledge in the album or Guns N' Roses. The trick is doing that and making a sale. Obviously you want to maximize profits and minimize costs and any holdup is likely do to debate over such issues.

Sometimes it's not simply 'oh, hire this director for the music video and get it done' or 'release the album because people really want it'. People have schedules and as much as people want to change them, it's often very difficult getting things done. Look at the Hollywood movie system. Incredibly complex, lots of red-tape.

It's not just a matter of economics which I'm sure is part of it. It's doing things to a certain standard and not blowing your load early.

I think Axl and the boys have to be willing to pay for a lot of it.  I think the record company has probably invested enough over the last 15yrs.  Pony up boys and get the f*ckin cd out.

Or poor Richard did, inadvertently!

God, I really hope it is true though and they get whatever it is that is holding it up worked out soon!

Well at least hopefully the record company will either confirm or deny now. ?Probably not, but hopefully.

Well maybe not "and the boys" . . . . . . 

I keep seeing this rumor over and over again!  Can it please be true this time, because if it is not only was Buckethead right when he said the album wouldn't be out until 2008, but maybe the trilogy thing Bach was talking about will actually be true!??!?!

I'm sure the 'trilogy' thing is true in some regard. Multiple times Axl's talked about albums going between 1 and 2 and alluded to such a system, while mentioned it more directly in others.

Regardless, the Bucket thing is complete rumor if I believe. Or did he say that on the record? Anyway, it's 2008 now. No point of looking back.

P.S.: Also at http://idolator.com/343248/chinese-democracy-is-it-all-over-but-the-marketing-plan

who knows if it is true. i highly doubt any band would turn over a completed cd to their record company without having all the money issues resolved before hand. geffen has spent a lot of money already, but they must also spend to promote it. so, it makes sense this may be a sticking point.

well, i still dont think we know. just because the record company said they wont do promotion before the cd was handed in, that doesnt mean that the band will bend over and say "ok" and hand it in. that was geffens' position. that was not guns n roses' position. maybe one side changed their stance since then or maybe not. we do not know that...

Jarmo's probably right when he points the issue of money.  I doubt it has much to do with how to map out a marketing plan.  They've been doing that for 50+ years.  It has more to do with who's going to pay for it.

But my question is, if the album has indeed been turned over to the record label, then doesn't Geffen have the final say as to how it's marketed.  If Geffen wanted to release Chinese Democracy without any promotion, isn't within its legal right to do so?  Unless the recording contract was renegotiated to include "adequate promotion of all future releases," Geffen can just say to the band, "thanks for the disc, we'll be releasing it on this day, this will be the single, and if you want anything more, you can use the millions we've already advanced you to pay for it." 

I just have a hard time believing that the hold up is as simple as the article, and perhaps the GNR community, is making it out to be.  Once the album is turned in, a record company can do whatever it wants when it comes to promotion and distribution. 

Another thought is the delay could actually be 'caused by those owning the recording rights and those owning the publishing rights.  Perhaps there's legal issues between Geffen and Sanctuary. 

In the end, as always, it's GNR fans that get the shaft.


Cheers,


Andrew

maybe guns should do a quick tour of Europe in the next couple of months to pay for marketing!

Indicative of what Guns N' Roses is that such a thought exists.  It use to be that a tour was part and parcel of a marketing plan.  You don't tour to pay for marketing, you tour to help market your cd.  (though with the change in the music business, it's becoming you release a cd to promote your tour).

So true...

axl probably wants millions for promotion and they say no....

..and you base this on what exactly?

There should be nothing in the way of CD in 2008.
If it doesn't come out after this year, then it will never come out.

It is apparent that there is no more recording of the album. There's no more process in making the band or making the album. No more excuses to delay after 2008. GNR has finished their job in the studio, PERIOD.

As much as I like the new stuff more now than ever, that doesn't mean it can't be shelved away until the band passes away and the record company gets to claim it all for itself and release it 80 years from now on a digital format that is wired to an MP3 player in your brain. It sucks that there's nothing we can do as far as I know. Nobody has put out feelers or any official petition to make a release.

MNW

I dont buy this at all. ANY business has to spend money to make money. They know that. This album is already so mythical and huge just in that sense, that it will sell just on that alone. Sure, maybe the record Co. has not spent this much money on any album before, but guess what? It is already spent. They are not just going to to shelve it and not put it out because they cant figure out how to market it. They have marketing bigger bands than this with no problem. The band could start this year by actualling doing a chinese D tour. I dont think they should play a bunch of new song, but they could actually mention it. Everything, well almost everything, the poster said above Jarmo is the way mucic is marketed. For crying out loud people, it is JUST AN ALBUM! It is not like going to your doctor with some disease no one has ever seen. Put a real release date out, play 1 to 2 singles, do all the stuff above and get it out.

I'm not sure the focus of "marketing" necessarily has to do with the money involved.  In a VR interview that I referenced (and attempted to transcribe) in another thread, Matt Sorum discussed how Axl is the one who came up with the idea of splitting the Illusion records into two separate discs, something that had never previously been done.  Whereas double-albums were typically displayed only behind the counter at the time, having two separate albums allowed fans to actually pick up the CDs and check them out before buying, as well as give them more of a choice. 

Given that there is rumored to be 3-4 albums worth of new material recorded, I think that "marketing" could easily refer to how to best package and sell the CDs rather than simply promoting and financing the release... :beer:

Well, I did read the information listed in this rumor months ago from this site; and the source is sebatian bach................... so whatever........take it for what it is..............my guess is any and every song has been done over at least 5-10 times and they all sound the same w/ subtle differences

Where is Mysteron these days!? 

Jeez, with all the fanfare that surrounded the leaked material in 2006, I think all that needs to be done is for the band to officially release a single to radio stations. That would probably be all the promotion they need. Once people recognize the song as an official Guns N' Roses single, the anticipation for the album(s) will build quickly.

Probably enjoying his life and not obsessing over the album.  :hihi:

First of all, marketing in today's day and age is completely different than a few years ago.  How do you sell a rock album in this day and age?  MTV doesn't play videos anymore.  Rock radio is on the decline.  How else do you get people to listen?

Just look at the top 100 year-end charts.  Only 20 of the artists on the chart are rock artists (alternative, classic, etc). 

Here are the 20 best selling rock artists:  The Eagles, Linkin Park, Nickelback, Daugherty, Beatles, Maroon 5, Hinder, Fall Out boy, Fray, Bruce Springsteen, RHCP, Killers, Snow Patrol, Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, 30 Seconds To Mars, Paul MacCartney, Bon Jovi, My Chemical Romance, Incubus, White Stripes.  Pretty much all these bands have gone platinum in 2007.  Why were they successful?

Having good music doesn't mean anything anymore.  You need exposure.  You need for your songs to be in commercials.  You need your songs to be used during sporting events.  You need your songs to be used in TV shows like Grey's Anatomy (and with no new shows being made...that's a huge setback).  You need to be featured in stores where albums are sold (best buy, kmart, walmart).  You need to be featured on itunes. You need the music blogs to be talking about you (in a positive way).  Or the celebrity blogs to talk about you...in any way.  you need to do the talk show circuit (morning and late night).  You need to do interviews with magazines.  you need to be a guest judge on American Idol. You need the American Idol contestants to cover your songs.  You and your music need to be everywhere. 

Making good music today is secondary.

intresting Info but i dont think it meens to mutch sadly  :no:


Peace

Sad but true.  It's obvious most bands are having trouble learning how to promote their stuff in this new world and not having much success.  I think Chinese Democracy has become so epic in its non-release that everything needs to be perfect from a promotional standpoint.  And I really don't see how that can happen.  I don't see Axl going on TRL or American Idol.  Seems like a very tough task to me, I hope they figure it out.

Im surprised that Axl never got his own label and could just release it ?

does the webmaster of this site know if this is true or not? we are going in circles here. i asked him a while ago, but he ignored me..help! i want to know this!

Here here. Let's say this is "all the label's fault" at this point, it's still the fans that suffer alot.

I have some suggestions to Axl and Geffen

- Use GunsnRoses.com to really promote CD have like a intro page and then when you open up the site have the artwork, track listings, and possible have a 20 sec bit of each song off the album.

- promote like nuts on MTV, Myspace, Itunes, including special on MTV of the history of the album and introducing the new members.

- maybe have Axl do a interview on maybe say 60 min some legit and not too commercial say TRL but Bach was on so I don't know.

- pull a radiohead

- Tour USA for 08 !!!!!!

I think a 60 Minutes thing would do well for people still thinking that former members are going to rejoin. It'd let Axl tell his side of things, the frustration of releasing CD, and build some bridges with the press all the while getting some good face time.

He can't do this because GNR is still under contract.

This is the same reason they can't "pull a radiohead"

Axl does/did have his own label... Uzi Suicide...
 : ok:

a 60minutes interview would be really good imo. I agree fully with Bucketfoot on this one because it would make Axl look good and Slash and the rest of them look like the assholes (for the time being) depending on how Axl portraid them in his side of the story.

as for the release, Geffen i think is a little leary of putting anymore money into CD because after all this time and all this money if it fails they're fucked. But they're going to have to relise that they need to spend at least a good one or two million on advertising. adds on the internet and TV like myspace and MTV would be a smart investment. Something else that Geffen could do is put on Axl as a punishment type of thing for taking so damn long have him pay half for advertising. I mean, why not he's got the money he wants his work out there as much as the fans so why not?

:peace:

Wow...   :o   no offense but,

If he wanted his work out there as much as the fans do we'd have had 2 or 3 new GNR albums at least by now after all this fucking time.

60 minutes? lol, yea right.  :P

I don't think Axl will ever do a show again, unless it's with Kurt Loder for some short interview.  The record company just needs to get smart and start using gunsnroses.com to get this thing rollin.....

I think that if there're rumours, an official information will soon come out. At least that's what happens recently.

source: http://www.celebheights.com/s/Axl-Rose-1189.html

He informed us that the album was in the label before Bach, Mysteron and Fortys (fortus)

Fans are greedy, not that this hasn't been an extremely long wait, but it'll come out when it's good and ready.  Sure they could've released 3 albums in the time it has taken to finish up this one, but if those 3 albums were substandard would it really have been worth it?  Just saying, I've seen other bands rush out CD's when they probably could've waited awhile and gotten some better work out there.  For example, St. Anger by Metallica seemed like they got together and threw something together in a matter of days.  And it sucked, at least IMHO.

I believe it's the artist who wants their best work out there more than anyone else.


i don't see  that in the quote?

I think Uzi Suicide was a Geffen company

When was it different? ok, instead of blogs, magazines... even though the delivery media has changed, the routine is still the same

I don't think it's exactly the same.

Back when MTV was the only medium to get your video shown, you got your video on rotation on MTV and you were pretty much done. People would see it sooner or later.

Today it seems that there's no easy way to get the same amount of people to see your video.

Just an example of how I think things have changed.




/jarmo

false
his label it's called Black Frog, Slash and Duff owns Uzisuicide

its even easier nowdays.
one just has to think a little bit more....
as opposed to MTV being the only medium, now you have hundreds more.....

only difference is that artists and their management have to work a little bit harder at the moment, as opposed to sending a tape to MTV and sitting back whilst the success rolls in all by itself....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7180448.stm

With all the hype and controversy over the Radiohead In Rainbows, it seems to have worked.  BBC reports the CD release has topped the US Billboard.  Food for thought maybe.....  :yes:

Yeah, but i still find that that only changed the delivery... Put a now GNR video on YouTube and check out how many hits there would be... Of course the delivery affects the marketing operations a bit, i suppose i wasnt that clear about this, but i think its still the same formula...

nowadays there's youtube :) that's how most people watch new videos... that's how i watched sebastian bach's new video. mtv sure wouldn't play it, and i'm not gonna see mtv that soon either.

the best way to market a cd nowadays is out of a label company. with radiohead, prince, madonna and NIN, among others, getting away from record labels i don't see why axl would wan't to be tied to one to promote his cd...

perhaps it's because he can't just get away from them at this point after all they invested on the damn cd... so i say just tour and put it out on itunes... the name guns n roses sells by itself... that's why shitty ass greatest hits still sell a billion today.

I bet it would get hits, but would the people who buy the cds see it there?




/jarmo

There are 50 Tuesdays left in 2008.

I have a feeling we'll have our album on one of them :)

Yup! but i think its a bit like watching the video on MTV and not buying the cd, it would happen a lot! YouTube just has a lot more viewers cuz its worldwide, i suppose the ratio of people who'd watch MTV and buy a CD cuz of it is bigger than YouTube's, but still, since the volume is a lot bigger i think youtube would succesfully fill the MTV gap!

But anyway, its all speculation until we see what actually happens! :)

I agree and maybe that's why the whole NIN picture created a stir here.? They (Trent) got away from the label and released new stuff like radiohead and did so with success.? GnR is unable to do so, probably over money and the way promo should be done.? The label knows that GNR is bigger than NIN and Radiohead together so they want that money.? That could be why the Chinese Democracy cover sign was up, because GnR is stuck inside with the label while NIN isn't.? That's what I got from the picture.? I'm also of the belief that the CD that will be released may have different songs then what GnR has been playing live and songs that have leaked.? That could be another reason why so many studio changes were made?? Not just to remove ex-members work but to add new songs and replace ex-members work?? Pay the ex-members for their time not royalties.? I also noticed that Brain was not listed as in the band on the GNR my space.? The drummer is Frank as listed.? I may be wrong on all the this but we'll see.

True, and people share the interesting videos they find on youtube by sending the links to their friends or by posting the links on a board or blog.
MTV should loose it's "M", they only show shit these days (well, for the last 10 years or so).

YouTube does reach a large audience, as well as Myspace Video. If I was GNR and thinking about promotion, one thing I would hit up would be MySpace and Facebook.

back when video's had any influence on people buying the CD's, downloading wasn't as popular as it is now (or it wasn't even really around back then)...you either had the choice of buying a single (the ones with the remixes and b-sides on them for 5 bucks), buy the CD, or wait and hope that you see it on tv or hear it on the radio.

The flipside to the entire youtube thing is that it probably isn't going to make people buy the record. because why buy the record in the store, if you're already on the computer anyway (watching the video) and you can own the record with just one push of a button...not even to mention that it's for free if you do it illegaly.

Recordcompanies have to find a solution that would make people want to buy that CD rather than downloading it, but what would want to make people buy that amount of money on a CD in this day and age? also wouldn't it be possible to prevent people from ripping the CD, like a blockage or something? I know that they do that with DVD's every now and then.

STV? :hihi:

But by reading what the article is saying, it could be argued that the digital release is hurting the CD's sales. 

Without a doubt, digital distribution of In Rainbows hurt physical sales.  But when you consider that 100% (or close to it) of the money taken in from digital sales went directly to the band (as opposed to 5-15% per cd), I think the band made out pretty well.  Ultimately, bands like Radiohead and Guns N' Roses can bank on their names to drive cd sales.  It's about getting your music to as many people possible.  If you've made it, you no longer are dependent on record labels for reaching mass audiences.  Smaller, up and coming bands, however, still need the distribution and marketing machines that labels provide. 

That's why I think the delay has little to do with promotion and much more to do with money.  It would be safe to assume that the label would be willing to spend the same amount of money promoting Chinese Democracy as they would with any other big ticket artist.  What's more likely is negotiations are still ongoing as to who gets what from the revenue pie. 

Even if there isn't any bickering going on and the delay is 'caused by a strategic release, everything has to do with money.  I would be interested to know when Geffen/Interscope/Universal's 4th quarter ends.  Much like the rumors around the video game Grand Theft Auto 4, we'll see if Chinese Democracy is used to prop up revenues for the year by releasing it close to the label's 4th quarter.

Once the lawyers and accountants finally get things settled and out of the way, that's the day we'll finally hear something.

Cheers,

Andrew

We just have to hope that Axl and the label can compromise, give concessions, giving the fans what they want.

Can you tell us more about this Black Frog label?
where did you find out about this?

I think that some have you have lost your marbles.

So NIN, Radiohead, Madonna, Prince, etc., have adapted to digital downloading. Cool dude. That doesn't really mean shit. The only "good" album of any of those was In Rainbows and the others were given away. Whether you like it or not, it's not the bands best and NIN is in many ways a niche band. They didn't help move units or make more sales, it was getting the album to people. Albums that weren't really that good.

I think that it's important to have very substantial marketing, especially viral marketing, but GNR doesn't need a crazy NIN-esque ad campaign or a Radiohead "pay-what-you-want" system. Here's a couple of quick, simple ideas.

• Have an official band forum and newsletter to allow communication about the new record
• Offer the first single to be available free to download
• MySpace.com Skin on main page and Ads for Secret Shows
• An affiliate program with commonly visited websites
• Special behind-the-scenes look at Guns N' Roses

The two issues facing GNR (and music as a whole) are the apathy of actually purchasing the CD/a song and the over-exposure of audio and video on the internet. Whether you believe it or not it's vastly changed our perception of all media and made us more jaded and cynical to the over-the-top. Everything is very ironic now adays.

By having an official forum, newsletters, and behind-the-scenes and early ticket sales type stuff for premium members (think Rolling Stone's website) you have people regularly communicating about your band and generates a feeling of esprit de corps. I for one am going to buy a couple of copies of Chinese and hand them out to strangers just to generate word. Some people won't do that, fair enough. But all the ideas above not only is good advertising and creates positive word of mouth, but it meets the needs of the fanbase. The letter in 2006 by Axl and the View from the Side of the Stage or whatever it was called from Del James are two great examples of that. The band effectively communicating with the hardcores. We all felt good about that (for the most part).

It's not really that difficult once whatever financial problems are overcome. Oh and I'm free for hire.  :smoking:

It is the promotion negotiations pure and simple....word!

Nice Opinions but some people do things "differently"-and nothing comes for free :beer:

Sorry, but which NIN album was "given away"?

it's some kind of publishing company

Isn't black frog the label that axl set up at the time he bought out the former band members? 

Viral marketing is all about giving something away. And I wasn't referring to the NIN album being free. I was referring to Prince and Radiohead.

And I wasn't suggesting my ideas were the best or whatever, but they cover the basics of viral marketing so basically stating a general idea. Also I was pointing out a huge campaign like NIN's as a lot of those people were already going to buy the album anyway.

And I think that Black Frog is Axl's publishing company and has all of the GNR assets, as Uzi Suicide is no longer active.

Can find some of the info about it here :peace:
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=22306.0

I knew there be a lot of rumors in 2008 now :hihi:

I don't think there will every be another official forum again.  I can remember years ago on gnronline.com the official forum.  It didn't last very long as I recall because of all the rumors and bullshit that people spread (Imagine that).  It's too much trouble and I think Axl himself would completely object the idea.

well isn't that what we're told is that Axl wants to get CD out as much as the fans do?


Yeah so just "wow" yourself >:( :P

:peace:

I think it's closure actually had something to do with Axl's personal phone number being posted on the forum. 

Yes, that probably was the deciding factor, and why he has expressed a disgust in the internet.

Precisely why the GN'R Greatest Hits CD is the only disc in the catalog I don't own.

Did anyone hear Eddie Trunk talking about it just now.  Nothing new obviously, but just that the speculation is that Axl turned the album in, but the record company doesn't know how or what to do with it to make all that money back

Where can you listen/do you have it recorded?

check eddies site,
He usually posts everything that happens in the gnr world/talked about gnr on his site/blog...

Its nothing new anyways, we all know by now the records be handed in...

And i THINK why axl hasnt said anything in regards to news about chinese democracy and the like,
is because of the situation he is in, he cant say anything like "I handed it in , now its up to the record company"
cause he then puts the record company in hot water...

Its all hush - hush, until some solid non circumstantial evidence comes to light , like , I dont know,

A RELEASE DATE!!!!!
WITHOUT THE WORD TENTATIVE

One could only hope. I wish my area would pick up Trunk's show. It's good stuff.

Here's his post:
"I hear the new G&R CD is actually done, but the delay in release is not the bands issues but the label. There is so much money tied up in this record that in todays business it will be virtually impossible to be profitable, meaning the label might want to sell it off but can not find a buyer since nobody buys CDs anymore. Problem might not be Axl this time around and might keep this CD in limbo for more years to come. Hopefully it gets resolved."

Source: http://www.eddietrunk.com/blog.php

If this is the situation I think it's pretty shitty. To me it's pretty simple. Release CD, make money. Go on tour, make money. Release #2, make money. So on. I think Eddie is really off base. If "other" bands can sell 4 million, GNR and a to-be awesome album like Chinese can do that easy.

Sounds horrifying... It took years to finish Chinese Democracy and now it might take years to get it on shelves..

Could some millionaire-fan please give the company a few bucks so this tragedy could finally reach a happy ending ?

This totally confirms Mysteron's comment about the ball being in the label's court.

You have a company who cannot justify to shareholders dumping more money into a project that has already had a tremendous amount of money poured into it and will struggle to break even much less meet the initial projected return on investment they projected when Axl got his advance 10 years ago. The label probably considers CD as a sunk cost at this point financially given all the circumstances surrounding it and the environmental changes that have taken place in the industry. The company does not view GNR as an emotional investment the way us fans do, so they are making decisions based on dollars and cents and what will ultimately generate the greatest financial return to the shareholders. Considering how many of us own stocks and bonds on this board, we all understand this is the expectation.

Working off that assumption, if they have a fixed pie of money to spend in their division for artist promotion (throughout the label) they are going to put it towards promoting artists that they have little capital investment in terms of recording an album. Financially they could use the marketing budget Axl would hypothetically require( to actually sign off on letting them release the album) and put it towards 5 or 10 different artists that aggragately offer a much higher profit potential compared to the money they have invested in them. Realistically there is probably a ceiling on how many albums CD would sell regardless of marketing money, just given the difficulties middle aged rock acts have getting mainstream exposure in a world of top 40 radio. No matter who the band is if you can't penetrate top 40 or Adult contemporary formats there is only so many copies you are going to sell (for all non-greatest hits new releases), that is just the way it is.

On the other hand, from Axl's position he is between a rock and a hard place because he could hypothetically tell them they could release it at any time and they would gladly do it, but it is not in his interest to do so if it does not have the high dollar promotion that is required because he can't afford to take the chance that it would possibly bomb due to a lack of promo. He has essentially pegged his entire musical legacy to this album just given everything surrounding the costs, line-up changes, vision, band name and everything else involved with the GNR world the past 15 years. If CD fails it will significantly damage his legacy and would be seen as a public rejection of his vision and everything he is trying to do.

If he is weighing the pro's and cons of whether he is better off not releasing it, or releasing it without promo and taking his chances knowing how much he personally has riding on it he is better off not releasing it. The downside risk is far less with the not release it option than releasing it without promo if the label won't give him money to do so. It is hard to blame him for not wanting to let it go without knowing that every effort humanly possible is made to ensure it is successful. It has to be all or nothing with everything he has riding on it.

The irony of the situation and the big FU to GNR fans everywhere is that for the longest time it was the label that was completely helpless to release it (and God knows they really wanted to especially once the writing was on the wall in terms of declining CD sales) but for whatever reason Axl was just unable to come up with some sort of finished album for them to release. With no album to release, the label had no choice but to sit on their hands and wait. Now Axl is the one who is chomping at the bit to release it finally that he is finished, but he is now being subjected to the stonewalling and non-cooperation that he engaged in for a decade. Much like the label couldn't release an album they didn't have, Axl can't release an album he does have if they won't give him the budget neccessary to match the hype and expectation associated with the project. Like the label for so many years, he may be looking at having to sit on it for an indefinite amount of time until the business environment changes and the label decides their is a financial incentive to give him the budget the album needs. In a complete reversal of fortune he is now a slave to them in a sense the way they were to him for the past decade, waiting on something you aren't quite sure if it is ever coming.

As is to be expected the fans will continue to be the big losers. The sad part is that neither side is being unreasonable in the stance they are most likely taking. Given the shear economics involved and the business environment of 2008, the label is completely justified to tell Axl that it just doesn't make sense to put any money into CD at this point as there are other business opportunities that are more attractive to use the money for. Axl is completely justified to tell them he is not going to risk his musical legacy on letting them release a GNR album if they are not going to pay to promote it the way it needs to be to ensure it is not viewed as a failure.  From an objective, non-emotional viewpoint it is hard to say that either side is wrong.

That just leaves us with a big clusterfuck and no end in site. If GNR fans didn't have bad luck they would have no luck at all.

That explains a lot, It would seem to me that the release of CD may be  compromised due to lack of return.

This being the case, it wouldn't suprise me if the record label are telling Axl that he would need to tie in future releases into the existing deal. Axl would, (as we all would) feel pissed by this, pretty much in the same way Neil Young did when Geffen, who in turn sued NY for producing music in a style that wasn't complict what NY fans would expect.

CD on its own might not get the money back, but 3 (as is alleged to be available) albums worth of material might. This would indicate that Axl is holding onto the unChinese Democracy stuff and saying if you want it, its gonna cost you....... IF this is the case, then given the cost of CD, then the label  feels that Guns n' Roses own the label for stumping up the funds for CD.

This is all of course speculation, but if its near the mark, unless something gives, CD won't be out for a long time  :crying:

It's way easier nowadays. I put no money behind my web video and cumulitively, my videos have been viewed more than 3,200,000 times. If I can do that with $0, a record company can get a NEW[/b] Guns N' Roses video in front of 15 million people within a month or so.

You can do a lot more with nothing nowadays.

It would be interesting to know what the final cost is at this point-I'm not sure how a record is made, or how the billing is done, but the costs must have been out of this world for all the musicians and producers who have worked on this

Another scary scenario about this whole thing is that.......if it IS in the record company's hands now......who will protect CD from being leaked onto the market waaaaaay too early and REALLY blow the sales.  Any numbnuts with access to it can easily upload it and therefore put them in the doghouse way further than expected.  Strike hot while the iron is plugged in. 
We don't have Axl's adamantium case to protect the album anymore  :rofl:  Now it's in the hands of douches that care not about the integrity of it.

Good.

the record company will protect cd.


even so, I guess some here would pay more as they claim that the fans want to get CD out as much as axl does or more.  :hihi:


Internet kills video stars? I think it's in transition.
In a surfeit of information
People are not so passive as before.
Few people buy what vjs/magazines say.
People choose what to see.

Exposure is always a must if you want to get your music to as many people as possible.
I don't see making good music today being less important than when mtv was people's main source.

Isn't he talking about the possibility that the label is selling the right to release the album?

Internet kills video stars? I think it's in transition.
In a surfeit of information
People are not so passive as before.
Few people buy what vjs/magazines say.
People choose what to see.

Exposure is always a must if you want to get your music to as many people as possible.
I don't see making good music today being less important than when mtv was people's main source.

Internet kills video stars.

Sounds like The Buggles have a new hit on their hands.? I call for a reunion.

Interesting, but hardly suprising.

Axl's best option would be to buy it off Universal but i doubt hes going to be able to afford to do that. His only saving grace is that he has a personal relationship with Iovine, hopefully they will cut out all the bullshit corporate stuff and sort this whole thing out at a high level, above the middle managers. Compared to most other acts in the business today Axl is a dinosaur, a product of another age. He needs to be dealt with by music men of that era, luckily Universal still have some of them left, not many other majors do!

Jonx

I know theres a lot of speculation going on about how the label release the album.

but PLEASE God, DONT let it be released in a fucking jewel case. DigiPak for the win :D Lush artwork with a gorgeous matte finnish. You've come this far, why compromise the quality.? :peace:


:]

If the label is going to hold it up for a while yet, that is going to really, really suck. I really hope that it's not true that they're holding it to make as much money as possible, because this album could be profitable as anything else. When the IRS demo leaked, it was charting for Christ's sake. I don't see what they could possibly fear.

Here we go. ?Perfect solution. ?This strategy involves a tie-in with NBC television and a man who knows how to sell. ?Make the marketing of Chinese Democracy a challenge between Team Empresario and Team Hydra (which happens to include Gene Simmons of Kiss-fame who could make money alone on a desert island if he had to). ?

In typical Apprentice fashion, the company that needs help (Universal) would have its execs sit down with each team and explain what needs to be done. ?The winning team is the team that comes up with the best strategy to market and release the Chinese Democracy Quadrilogy. ?Who knows, maybe even an appearance from Axl and the band to boot.

C'mon, a guy can dream can't he??? ? :hihi: ?

and I knew you were right. :hihi:


I was referring to the line on a tee in justice's video for 'dance' . :P
yeah I've heard of the song video killed the radio star. I guess it was released in an age of transition as well.

i wish they'd throw us a bone or something by giving us the art work at least. You know that has to be done by now if the record lable has it.


:lmao: so true.......i wonder if Axl is in front of the door with an Uzi waitting.........

NOW I like that idea man : ok: :rofl: Have Gene sell it! :headbanger:


if were going to dream can i sujest a tour of G'n'R and KISS?
:peace:

I dunno,in but I guess Eddie Trunk is a bit off. Why would the label hold the cd for years? It will be even harder to sell cds in the future...

It's also baseless speculation around what could be the issue between the band and the label. Maybe it's just a matter of how many albuns, for who (target) it's gonna be released, when the follow up will be released and stuff like that. Things that does take a while, but not years to work out.

Here's a thought...

Maybe Axl gave them a CD containing a group of second tier songs. ?Not the best stuff the band is recording, but good enough to sell to the public.

Maybe he is hoarding all the bands best work. ?He's only obligated to 1 more record through Geffen right? ?Maybe his plan is to finish out his contract and then release all the top tier stuff on his own. ?He can get the band back into the mainstream with a Geffen release and then kick everyone in the face with the best stuff and he can reap all the rewards. ?He's got the money to do that. ?It's not like he would actually haev to produce a "Record." ?He can release it through the GNR website and make it available on iTunes. ?He'd make a killing.

And maybe Geffen is aware and saying that he needs to give them his top material.

Maybe... or maybe it's just another stupid obstacle like every other one in the past 15 years.

That seems.. unlikely.

Let's try the whole "Bucketfoot" insight volume two without my hilarious slurs.

Okay so lets just say as jumping off point the recording of Chinese Democracy has cost $20 million bucks.

Lets say promotion, etc. takes 3.5 million. That's a net of $23.5 Million spent on the album in general. It costs something like $100,000 for radio at most for a pretty serious campaign and about $500,000 for a primetime spot for a commercial. So, hey, we'll just assume a cool 3.5.

Say the album sells 4 million copies. Roughly $12 bucks a pop, there's $48 million dollars. Who knows how it's distributed because different people on the album in the past, but we'll assume generality for brevity's sake. Usually around 15-20% but depends on Uncle Axl's contract. I don't know if there is an individual clause for each member or just an even distribution of the money given to the band.

So assuming this, $48 million dollars from CD Sales. Lets say that the band earns 17.5% from the album sales. Then there's a high tax on the earning, so after taxes the band gets about $3,360,000. Split 8 ways you have $420,000 for each member not even including other artists who have worked on the album. Whether their one-time costs are apart of the "recording costs" or not remains to be seen. The band makes most of it's money from touring anyway. I doubt Bumblefoot is going to cry if he only pulls in half a mill. Probably get him some good protection from Dark Angel.  :rofl:

That may seem slim, but this is a low number of 4 Million. Honestly, I think Chinese Democracy can hit 12 million worldwide, but hey that's me. So assuming that the record company gets 50% of this number in profit at the same 40% tax (I'm not certain if the tax on the record company differs, but I know artist tax is typically 40%). That would mean they pull in 9.6 Million.

If the album sells 8 million, the record company will get around 19.2 Million. Stadium Arcadium sold about 7 million just for reference. So assuming Chinese Democracy can sell 8 million copies, that's a deficit of 4.3 million bucks. This doesn't even include profit received from merchandising, touring, etc.

So yes, there are a lot of costs involved. Can they be overcome? Yes.

There's a big word in "IF" you have there Mr Bucketfoot? :rofl: it's almost as big as "soon" nice thought though.

PS. Tax can often be offset against loses....

There's a lot of costs involved, but not the amounts you just dreamed of ::)

Apparently this is a somewhat describing breakdown of where the money goes from a new album with a list price of $15.99:

- $0.17 Musicians? unions
- $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
- $0.82 Publishing royalties
- $0.80 Retail profit
- $0.90 Distribution
- $1.60 Artists? royalties
- $1.70 Label profit
- $2.40 Marketing/promotion
- $2.91 Label overhead
- $3.89 Retail overhead


Now we know most albums don't retail for that much so some cuts need to be made....



/jarmo

They certainly wont split the profits each way between the band! I find that very hard to imagine. I think one man will get the lion's share of the artist's profits.

Well that makes a lot of sense.   Just because an album sells 4 million copies at $16 per CD doesn't necessarily mean the Label is going to pocket 64 million dollars. 

According to Jarmo's scale, it's be 6.8 million. And no one ever said they'd get 64 million.

I think the touring and merch can probably offset a lot of the recording costs.. I mean, a big company could easily take out a loan to come up with the money if they had to (which they probably don't) for promo. i don't think that's a huge deal...

Just some food for thought on album sales for the year 2007 from an AP article I saw:


Of that list, the Eagles would be about the only artist close to the GNR situation in terms of being a big name middle aged rock band releasing new material for the first time in years. The rest of that list is populated with artists who have access to top 40 and adult contemporary formats GNR won't, and those are the 2 biggest platforms on radio.

Assuming a 10% decline in rock sales this year alone in keeping with the trend, if GNR were the top selling rock act of the year they are most likely looking at a ceiling of 2.3 million copies, and that is in the best case scenario. To assume that some how GNR will be completely immune to the retail realities facing the genre given the challenges they will face is just not realistic. 2 million in sales would be a tremendous showing all things considered.


According to Jarmo's chart (assuming that it is somewhat accurate and it seems very likely looking at the breakdown), with a minimum capital investment by the company of $13 million dollars (the money spent just to record the album) the would need to sell an astronmical number of CD's to even get to break even (based on the chart #'s provided it looks like they see maybe $3.00-$4.00 revenue on every album after all the other non-recording costs are considered, and that is assuming a 15.99 retail price which is completely unrealistic). When you then consider the additional money they will have to spend to promote, distribute, pay Axl, and all other new costs associated with a release that $13 million climbs even higher. ?

Any way you look at it there is almost no viable scenario in which this thing can be seen as being worth putting even 1 more dollar into, as the additional money spent from here on out won't bring in the incremental sales increases to make it worth doing compared to the opportunity costs of not using the money elsewhere. This thing will sell at least 1-1.5 million regardless of whether it is promoted or not, so putting in another million or two promo to gain at most a 500,000-700,000 incremental sales increase (under the most optimal projection) is just not worth the risk to a financially strapped company considering the downside potential if everything doesn't fall into place perfectly.

Axl has to much riding on this to just take his chances of a release with no promo. He is better off not releasing it considering how catastophic failure would be to his and Guns legacy and everything he has spent a decade doing. If the hypothetical numbers are true based on Jarmo's chart and the known 2007 year end albums sales statistics, there is little chance in the near future of the label making the financial committment Axl needs based on their likely ability to break even on this (much less be profitable).

Just like with Axl, based on their risk they are better off sitting on the album in the hopes that a more viable financial model may develop in the future as digital sales are at least showing signs of continued growth and more people become comfortable with the notion of actually paying for music again. For almost a decade now people have essentially been able to get music for free, and convincing people to buy something they can still get for free currently is a hard sell. Things are improving slowly, but at least there is finally some semblance of hope for the record companies on the horizon potentially.

Any way you look at it this is a major recipe for gridlock. We don't know anything for sure, but based on the tone of Jarmo and Mysteron's posts the past few months regaurding things "the ball being in the label's court", coupled with all the rumors from outside sources like Rolling Stone and Eddie Trunk essentially echoing the same thing it seems entirely plausible and probably likely. Without knowing the nuts and bolts it is not terribly difficult to come up with a somewhat reasonable guestimate as to the financial realities surrounding the album from the labels standpoint in regards to the desirability of it being financially worth further investment. The outlook is not rosey(pardon the pun) at all for any sort of release in the near future. It is hard to even see how any compromise to break the gridlock could be reached because both sides have entirely legitimate and reasonable grounds for the positions they appear to be taking regarding and not backing down from their current stance.

The majority of the money spent to produce this album was spent years ago.  I'd imagine that a lot of it was recouped by the Greatest Hits which is still charting almost 4 years after its release as well as the tours the past two years.  Now they're going to have to spend a lot of money to promote the album and they will have to be creative about it because the industry is in transition right now.

The negatives:  the music industry is adjusting to new sales trends and trying to figure out how to use technology to their advantage.  Promoting CD is going to be a large and expensive process.  There are a lot of politics and egos involved and it's going to be difficult to come up with a plan where everyone involved is satisfied

The positives:  the amount of money spent on CD is not just for one album.  It's apparently 3-4 albums worth of material that they actually plan on releasing.  The large majority of that reported $13 million was spent years ago.  Greatest Hits was a huge success with minimal investment from the label and showed that the GnR brand name still sells records and has staying power.  The past two tours were successful even without an album.  GnR has a huge international fanbase that will make recouping easier for them than it is for most bands.  The curiousity around the first album will generate a lot of sales by itself.  And despite reports, the $13 million is not unprecedented or even out of the routine.  Mariah Carey had a contract with Virgin for $20 million an album, that they ended up buying out for a lump sum of $28 million because of a couple flops.  Madonna's albums have been budgeted in the 8 figure range for years.  Michael Jackson's last album cost over $30 million in production costs alone.  $13-17 million or whatever in production costs is huge, but not unprecedented, especially if 3-4 albums are culled from those sessions. 

And put it this way.  Using Jarmo's scale, let's say they release the first album, they spend $10 million promoting it, they sell 6-7 million worldwide.  Okay, the label still technically lost money overall.  But they would have made a dent in the $13-17 million investment and have 2-3 more albums worth of material that can be released.  Now let's say, all said and done, the CD sessions result in albums that cost a combined $40 million to record and market when all is told.  And let's say the label takes in $35 million.  They lost money, but they would've cut their total loss down greatly.  Then you factor in touring profits.  Then you factor in the other greatest hits and best of compilations that can be put together.  Then you factor in money that can be made by using these songs in advertisements and movie soundtracks and everything else.  These mythic recording costs are long gone, they aren't going to come back if the label doesn't release the album.  At this point, if the label can release the album and make more in sales than they spend on marketing, that's a success at this point from their POV because at least they made back some of the money they invested.  Realistically, they cannot expect to recoup or turn a profit on the investment with the first album.  You have to look at the current investment as an investment in 3 new albums, combined with the boost in sales to the old catalogue that will result from the new release, combined with the potential for more compliation albums, song use in advertising and marketing, use in movies, etc.  The only way the label can profit off if this is to look at the big picture, because obviously Chinese Democracy Volume 1 isn't going to be the thing (whether or not anything will) make them a profit off of this investment

exactly...nobody benefits from not releasing the album. : ok: I think it will take two albums to recoup the costs. The big thing is the first one has to be moderately successful so the band and label are confident enough to release the second one. :P

Yes, Jarmo's chart is a good chart. ?:crying:

But seriously, even-though there are a lot of costs tied up in the album the recording costs aren't just for one album which is a strong side going for the GNR camp. So even if it's only 1 or 2 more albums of releaseable material, there won't be too many future costs in terms of recording.

The delay for whatever reason is probably for making Chinese Democracy a success. People loving the record and a new generation finding GNR. If it doesn't then not very many people will buy the follow up, regardless how good the music is. It will be GNR's 'Smile' and not GNRs 'Hell's Angels'.

So it sucks not to have the album. Bitch all you want. Fact remains, it's best for the future of the band and us as fans to wait until things are in order.

I know it's sort of apples and oranges, but if you look at the movie industry, they regularly spend a ton of money marketing movies they know they won't make a profit on.  They take some movie that cost $70 million to make, spend $30 million marketing it, and their only real goal is to make back what they spend on the marketing while it's in the theater then hope to break even or lessen the damage once it's out on DVD.  They'll spend $100 million to release and market a movie that they realistically can only hope to make $80 million off of after everything, ticket sales and DVD sales, is accounted for.  Why?  Because losing $20 million dollars is not as bad as losing $70 million. 

Someone on the megadeth forums said something about Eddie Trunk's show.  Apparently whoever was on it said the label won't release it, even though it's finished, because of the prospect of not making profit.  The label must be stupid if that's what they think.

It's amazing that this stuff still gets talked about in all honesty.  The band's great, the new songs are great, just bloody release it.  I've been coming on HTGTH for years now and nothing changes, except my anticipation slowly wanes with each passing year!  I want to take this opportunity to say "keep up the good work Jarmo"!  You have the patience of I don't know what!

The idea of this "3-4 albums worth of material" thing is moot if GNR doesn't have an existing contract with the label to release 3-4 new albums worth of original material. Say 2 more new releases satisfies their contract, they will have to sign Axl to another big deal if they ever dream of releasing those 3 or 4th albums. So he may have recorded all that material, but if they can only release half of it without having to give him a new contract then it puts a whole new spin on how much revenue would need to be generated with however many albums GNR have left to satisfy their current contract. If anyone knows it would be appreciated to add to the discussion.

Further, this myth that GH somehow pays the label back for CD is absolutely not true. In the band's recording contract it is a near certainty that there was to be at least one GH hits release, as most artists of that stature have the same thing. If the label signs you to a 6 album deal, they expect expect to earn the projected revenues from those 6 individual albums. The bean counters aren't accounting profits/and losses in the aggregate, but based on the financial success and viability of each individual project. Doing at or above expectations in one is not going to entail throwing money at a bleak financial situation in another just because they made more than they expected off of one. Any company's management has a fidicuiary responsibility to shareholders to maximize shareholder value, so they are not going to make a risky financial decision in regards to the CD project nor call things even in regards to the 13 million in debt just because GH did well.

Let's say you had a sales job at a bank, and also had your home mortgage through them. Then let's say you are a star earner for the bank and beat your projections every month. For some reason or another though you are completely unable and unwilling to make your mortgage payment and are in danger of forclosure. Does anybody in their right mind think the bank would forget that you refuse to make a mortgage payment and not forclose on your house just because you are an above average earner for the company?

The argument some of you try and make applying CD to that logic is that somehow the bank would say "well, he is this far delinquent on his mortgage and owes us X dollars, but he did beat his sales quota by X dollars the last few months, so we will just consider his mortgage paid for that money even though we still paid him his full salary and commision. Everyone understands that would never ever happen in the real world as those are considered entirely separate entities from a business standpoint is that there is an expectation by the bank that you perform all of the duties of your employment and pay your mortgage in full every month as is the expectation when a loan is made. They don't just call it even because you are succeeding at one and failing at the other when the expectation from their end is that both tasks should be completed as specified.

That is the nature of finance. Maximize revenue on every project, and make decisions based on the merits of each individual situation. Just as a bank doesn't consider a mortgage that isn't paid back forgiven because you are an outstanding sales leader for the company, the record label is not applying the excess financial gain from GH to the CD debt. They expect to see full performance on each individual project, not an aggregate of everything combined. No financial model on the planet will do something they know is going to lose money just because they had one that did well.

I doubt that's true at all...

It's kind of an interesting move on the label's part to now start shopping the album around to other labels.  If you think about it, why would anyone want to buy the recording rights to a band like Guns N' Roses unless there's proof that the album is finished?  Geffen might have been stringing Axl and the band along, and once the album was completed and turned in, they look to shop it around. 

Seems like it comes down to math.  If you've invested $13 million into something but only expect a return of $6 million, why not try to sell it for $7-10 million to someone who thinks a $6 million return is undervalued. 

I never understood why the label would considering selling the recording rights away, but now I'm starting to see the logic.


And whoever pointed out that tour and merch revenues could offset losses from cd sales is obviously unaware that labels rarely get a piece of that pie.  The industry is moving to '360 deals' where a label will give an artist higher royalty fees for recordings in exchange for a piece of the revenues made off tours and merchandise. 

If the fate of the album is now being decided by lawyers and accountants, well, we could have a much longer wait than we thought.

Cheers,

Andrew

Logically, the investers want a profit from this music, but regardless it will be a great album no matter if it outsells afd or illusions.  I just keep asking why not tour a hell of a lot more to regain some of that investment? I know that it may not be that simple but there are plenty of promotional things that can create cash, alot without spending too  much for it.  idk just ramblings. :rant:

hold on.. i may have missed it but who said the label was shoppin the album around??

Eddie Trunk suggested it and seemingly been perpetuated since.

If it is being shopped around, its a good thing.  If no good offer comes in, they will be forced to release it. Its judgement day now.

Very well written, but the one problem with your statement that the GH album doesn't help to at least recoup some of the costs for CD is that no money was spent recording GH. ?None. ?All the tracks were already recorded. ?For that reason alone, you can't compare it to the cost and profit made off of an original studio album. ?If nothing else, the timing of the GH release indicates it was done to recoup costs.

Ali

Yes, but let's keep in mind that just because Eddie Trunk heard something that doesn't make it so.

Ali

why would they shop it around now just for cost reasons, when they have known the cost got silly years...? They could just have dropped 'em.How does their contract lie just now, anyone know...?

Thats my point. I was trying to explain the economic side and Jarmo elaborated.

It's still a rumor.

The label themselves stated that the reason GH was released without the approval of current/former GnR members because, at least in part, because CD had yet to be delivered and so they went ahead and released GH in an effort to recoup some of the money spent on CD.  That's straight from the label themselves.  And in fact with around 8 million copies sold worldwide, they succeeded in that regard.  You can dig up the legal documents relating to Axl, Slash and Duff's lawsuit against Interscope over the GH album and you will see the label mentions this in those legal documents

And while you're right that in the ordinary business world nobody is going to invest money into a project they know is going to lose money from the get go, that's not necessarily true in the entertainment industry.  I use the film industry as an example because I know more about it than the music industry, but since both are entertainment I think they're more closely tied than they are to the home loan industry.  The film studios at times greenlight projects that they believe will improve their artistic reputation, even knowing 99.9% for sure won't be profitable but will raise the studio's "credibility".  They will give a $25-30 million advertising budget to a film they know isn't going to recoup production costs, because they want to at least recoup SOME of the investment.   Take for example Beowulf, which had a budget of $150 million and an advertising budget of $35-40 million.  The film grossed about $190 million worldwide.  The studio will rake in about 55% of that, or $104.5 million on $185-190 million invested, plus distribution costs which push that total even higher.  Now where the movie industry differs is that they'll still get a lot of money off of DVD sales and in the end Beowulf will probably break even eventually or come close to it.  But the point is they had a film they had to know realistically was not going to make back its production costs, much less the overall production, marketing and distribution budget.  So why did they pour huge $ into promoting and advertising for it?  Because they would recoup $105 million than recoup $75 million.  They realized that if they skimped on the advertising budget that they would actually lose more money

Even if the label realizes the obvious, which is that they probably won't recoup all of the $13 million on CD at least with the first album, they also must realize that with a proper release and the right promotion, they will recoup SOME of that money, which is better than recouping none, in any industry.

Why would you drop an artist if you can sell them to another label and at least recoup some of your losses.  Remember that this album has been under production for a better part of 10 years.  My bet is that most of money spent by the label on recording was done earlier on, when cd sales were still viable and not in the tailspin that they're now in. 

Furthermore, I wasn't suggesting in my previous post that this is actually happening, but that I can now start to see the business sense of such a move.  What label in their right minds would take GNR off the hands of Geffen without physical proof that the album is done and ready for production and distribution.  The value of the recordings jump enormously once they've been turned in. 

Cheers,

Andrew

This is an article I just noticed on the troubles Robbie Williams has been having with his label, EMI.  Now, I didn't post this to start a war of words about Robbie Williams, his music, or whatever.  Just take away from this article that it sounds like a lot of big artists are taking issues with their respective labels. 

Perhaps GNR is in the same predicament as Robbie Williams and Cold Play.


Also interesting is his record deal with EMI.  From the sounds of things, we might have our facts wrong about revenues.  If Robbie Williams is getting 80 million pounds for 4 records, then at 20 million pounds per record, there's plenty of money to be made off an album that sells 4 million copies. 


Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080111/wl_uk_afp/entertainmentbritainmusicwilliams_080111204133

 LONDON (AFP) - Pop star Robbie Williams has gone on strike against his record label, with his manager accusing British music publisher EMI's new boss of acting like a "plantation owner," a report said Friday.
ADVERTISEMENT

The singer, who has sold 70 million albums for EMI, will not deliver his new album to the label, manager Tim Clark told The Times.

"The question is, 'Should Robbie deliver the new album he is due to release to EMI?' We have to say the answer is 'no'. We have no idea how EMI will market and promote the album.

"They do not have anyone in the digital sphere capable of doing the job required. All we know is they are going to decimate their staff."

Clark accused the new EMI boss of acting like a "plantation owner" who had stumbled into the record industry via a "vanity purchase", the paper said.

Guy Hands, head of Terra Firma, which won control of EMI in August, pledged last year to drop recording artists who were not working hard enough for the label, and change the pay system for executives at the company, according to the Financial Times.

The group Coldplay has expressed concern over changes at the label as well and may decide not to deliver its next album, the rock group's manager, Dave Holmes, told The Times.

British rock legend Sir Paul McCartney split with EMI last year, and released his latest album "Memory Almost Full" with coffee giant Starbucks's newly launched Hear Music label.

McCartney lamented the amount of time it took for EMI to develop a marketing strategy for his songs, also telling The Times he would ask the label for a song to be released the week after he wrote it, only to be told by executives that it would take six months instead.

Williams is also seeking greater control over his past releases and over digital sales of his music, his manager said.

The star could decide to sell his next album or certain songs himself online, according to his manager.

EMI refused comment when contacted by AFP.

Williams signed a four-album contract in 2002 that media reports at the time said was worth 80 million pounds (106 million euros, 157 million dollars).

so then really,

If this is true, then Geffen has made a bargain for 15-20 mill they have spent,
if their is 4 Chinese Democracy albums..

whats that 5-7 million an album?

thats not so bad when you break it down,

I think only once axl has released 2-3 albums, will he then start making profit for geffen/himself...


Which begs the question, I wonder how much  Money Axl has invested in chin dem, when Geffen stopped the funding? :-\

It's good to hear something about the album I suppose, but rumors only get you amped up for pretty much nothing which is troubling.

Just more good old GNR fan speculation.  :D

Let's just hope the album is released before albums become extinct.

I wonder if Axl selling publishing to Sanctuary has any impact on any of this stuff?

It all depends on the contract a band signs.  Generally an artist will enter a recording contract with a label, meaning the label owns the recordings but not the songs.  The publishing rights are then owned by the artist, unless such artist decides to sell the publishing rights.  Best example I can give is if the song Welcome to the Jungle from AFD was used in a commercial, both Geffen and Sanctuary (and anyone else that owns publishing rights) is paid.  But if Axl were to re-record WTTJ and sell that version, Geffen would be cut out of the loop.

So to answer your theoretical question, perhaps Geffen/Interscope wants to tie in publishing rights but Axl has already sold them off to Sanctuary. 

Again, who knows.  Can't wait for the dust to settle.

Cheers,

Andrew

what do we actually KNOW, coz im getting a little confused about facts and rumour? do we know any real figures on the cost of the album? Do we know for sure that the label withdrew funding? Do we know when...?

well...we actually know it's a game of hardball, and it's the record company's move now....mmmmmkay?

According to Axl "the album has a tentative release date of march 2007" This is the ONLY fact he has ever said

Cheers. So we know nothing...? I do personally buy the story that its been handed in tho, as Fortus said so, and theres no other way of interpreting that. Unless the story was a lie, then all bets are off, of course.

I think that Geffen put that (about) 13 million dollars to recording sessions and Axl paid 2006 and 2007 recordings himself OR something like that. Nobody knows anything official ? I thought that label pulled the plug in 2004, around the release of Greatest Hits and after that almost nothing happened until Bumblefoot came along.

Sebastian Bach has said several times few months ago that there are 3-4 albums worth of material, so Chinese Democracy alone hasn't cost that now legendary 13 mil. And someone already posted that for example Madonna's one album can cost 8 million dollars so Axl isn't quite so extravagant as most seem to think.

I take Geffens 2004 comments and Bachs last years talks with grain of salt BUT like to think that 90 % is true  ;)

I also believe that one album is truly mixed & mastered, Del James told us almost an year ago that recordings are done.

what were geffens 2004 comments?

I'm skating on very thin ice here: just a fading memory that Geffen announced that recording sessions of Chinese Democracy have already cost 13 million dollars and yet nothing has delivered so they are withdrawing their money.

I really can't remember if this was official or Blabbermouth speaking.

http://eddietrunk.com/blogarticle.php?columns_id=1030
We need someone or something to act as a savior now.
Maybe something new and unique will happen, like a quick resolution to this current obstacle.

This part, if true, might be troubling...

There is so much money tied up in this record that in todays business it will be virtually impossible to be profitable, meaning the label might want to sell it off but can not find a buyer since nobody buys CDs anymore.

OK, so who wants to start a fund to buy Geffen's rights to CD? 

axlnyc - is the podcast mentioned there the one everyone has heard a while ago...?

I dunno the figures, but CD sales still out flank downloads dont they...?

it was from the Ny times.
According to the article the label alleged that they had stopped founding the album in Feb, 2004, after having invested about $13 million.


If true the label can't have spent anymore on the album. If that's the case, shouldn't the rights to the recordings done after 2004 be reserved by the bands not by the label?

I don't have a clue about where the 15 ~20 million allegation comes from. 

Not true Axl has made many statements as to when the album will be out.  The only time he has mentioned a specific (albiet tentantive) release date is when he said it will be out in March 2007.

yeah many.  like 'soon is not the word' 'don't hold your breath'.

He's made vague statements in the past.  Let's be honest, it was fall or late fall, spring, summer, etc.  They certainly weren't specific or promises.

Ali

This rumor made it on the music news section of my local radio station today.  Kinda unexpected as I live in the middle of nowhere Minnesota.

But figure that the record company, after production, distribution, advertising and whatnot grosses $1 per copy of CD that is sold, that means, they only have to sell 13 million copies of it to make it profitable.

Oh, that's bad ...


Personally, I don't know if I buy the $13 million production costs? I mean, on what? Where they paying Axl and the band by the hour to record? I know different producers were brought in, but not $13 million worth? Is the cost of recording media that expensive? Album advance money? Cheetos? Peppered turkey? Whiskey? I just don't get how that much could have been spent on it.

Whatever the issue is I hope that it can be overcome very soon. Or at least our Mysteronous guardian angel pays us a visit. Regardless of financial issues that need to be overcome, I'm sure Chinese Democracy will set the internet and the music industry ablaze once it's release date is announced and promotion begins.

The jaded speak of a failure to capitalize on the momentum in 2006, but it can be easily regained. The band is inspiring and that's that. Eventhough the wait is sometimes arduous, Chinese Democracy will be worth it and you should keep the faith.

:peace:

Why worry about it?  I mean, won't we have news that will tell us all of this?  I just think it's better to just continue to support the band and the perks and things we get are enough to make up for the silence.

people focus on the album too much.   i say jus sit back and let it happen.  no need to over analyze anything or try to think of this as if we are music professionals.    it'll happen when the time comes.

I hear the new G&R CD is actually done, but the delay in release is not the bands issues but the label. There is so much money tied up in this record that in todays business it will be virtually impossible to be profitable, meaning the label might want to sell it off but can not find a buyer since nobody buys CDs anymore. Problem might not be Axl this time around and might keep this CD in limbo for more years to come. Hopefully it gets resolved.

I still buy CDs! So do lots of people....

Yeah you're right, but it's human nature to try to articulate what and why. Good or bad, people have a lot invested emotionally and would like to see the album come out. Whether that is for selfish gain or because they want to see Axl and the band succeed. For some it can be a bad obsession, always messin my mind. :P

i agree. i dont think declining cd sales are that much of an issue just yet. i bet they still outsell downloads.

Some people buy CDs, but declining CD sales are most certainly a huge issue for the music industry:

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/01/14/record-executives-literally-cannot-give-cds-away/

Ali

Someone should just leak it and be done with it, almost seems liek its the only way we will ever hear it.

Also, where does the $13 Million number come form? I can't see how it could cost near that. $3M MAYBE but not 13, studios and musicians cost a lot but not that much.

According to a Rolling Stone article from 2000, the label was rumored to have given an advance of around $10 million although that included when Slash, Duff and Sorum were still in the band.  This is huge but not unprecedented.  A couple of examples in this thread have been posted already, but to repeat, Mariah Carey had a deal with Virgin paying her $20 million per album.  Robbie Williams has a similar contract with EMI.  Madonna's advances have been into 8 figures for well over a decade.  Michael Jackson's last album cost more than $30 million just in production fees.  Is it necessary?  That's another story altogether but considering they've been in the studio on and off for the past 9-10 years and have recorded who knows how many albums worth of material including stuff that will never be released, it's not that surprising.  Studio time, producers, techs, engineers, etc are very expensive when you're doing everything top of the line like GnR

he wants marketing - i have some ideas.

Rock of Love 3 - Starring Axl

or

Making the Band 5 - Axl searches for a new Tracy and Roberta

or

a Cloverfield type of guerrilla marketing - an internet based game where you unlock the secrets to hear Chinese Democracy...

Haha. I miss Tracey and Roberta. Make it a 10-piece Axl!

Well lets all hope CD comes out soon can't believe its almost been two years since Hammerstein shows.   Funny Axl hasn't been out in the public eye or there is no more new photo's I think everyone in the GnR camp is working hard to get this CD out.

Is this what this whole GN'R saga has come to? Long essays about the inner workings and future of the music business, marketing strategies, break even points, ROI calculations etc etc?

Its nothing against you guys and girls, but its so sad that we can't come to this forum to read and talk more about what the bands up to - the music, artwork, tours, singles, videos band members.  I sincerely hope in the next few months there is a change in events otherwise I fear will be discussing Geffens liquidation and Axl's pension plan.  :(

Could the writer's strike be holding up CD?


I wonder if Music Videos have anything to do with the strike?



He needs to get a song on a kick ass summer movie like the new Batman or something.

I think thats riddiculous ,
I dont think the writers going on strike,
would have any effect on the writing of a music video,
I mean, worse comes to worse, just show some live footage, with some love story being acted out based on the song Better,

easy as that,

and I agree with



We are here just to talk about music,
not the inner fundamental workings of a record company,
I want to talk about my favourtie band/cd, Not the financial breakdown of how a Cd's profit is distributed,
and considering that some Cds etc are sold at different prices / dual cases etc,
I think that "breakdown" as Jarmo described would change per cd...
so its not really accurate, considering CHinse dEmocracy might be 2 cds (we never know)

If I want to learn business and how to meet profit margins, Ill read my colleege textbooks  :hihi:

It seems I may not agree with your comments as my post was deleted....  ???   ::)

No harm in disagreeing my friend.

From SoHood Magazine regarding the Eddie Trunk blog...

Geffen holding back Guns N? Roses Chinese Democracy CD

Tuesday, 15 January 2008

Eddie Trunk host of  ?Friday Night Rocks" in NYC on Q104.3 (NYC, NJ, LI, CT) has updated his blog on Guns N? Roses, about the now infamous Chinese Democracy album. Eddie Trunk has posted the following on his blog:

 "I hear the new G&R CD is actually done, but the delay in release is not the bands issues but the label. There is so much money tied up in this record that in today?s business it will be virtually impossible to be profitable, meaning the label might want to sell it off but can not find a buyer since nobody buys CDs anymore. Problem might not be Axl (rose) this time around and might keep this CD in limbo for more years to come. Hopefully it gets resolved."
 
I?ve heard rumors that maybe the album was finished, and it was actually handed-in, I guess it could be true. I do find it believable that Geffen or Interscope is the one holding back the album. There have been artists on that label whom have had their albums pushed back and delayed for odd reasons. Resulting in many artists leaving the label, so this is nothing new.

Geffen Records or a representative were not immediately available to comment on the report.

http://www.sohood.com/1/content/view/3274/41/

Nothin'new

What would those quality papers call these albums? cd is not the most expensive record after all.
isn't the Inflation aggravating?

related articles
"EMI plans to tighten support and make cuts to tune of 2,000 jobs"
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article3182127.ece

geffen/interscope is also reported to have done a lay off just before christmas.


The Industry seems to be in a mess.

If the band were up to something right now, then we may have something else to talk about.

It was also well documented that there was a large studio booked around the clock with a recording engineer on call and ready to record at all times. I don't think Axl showed up that often during this rather expensive process.

A revolution in music distribution, who will surrive? :P

The industry will be a little diferent in few years time, lets hope it doesn't take that long for CD to be released :hihi:

Chinese Democracy!  :D

So then maybe we aren't asking the right people for updates?..

With all these rumours going around, someone from the record company should ideally make a comment.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/upcoming_releases/gnr_finish_chinese_democracy_report.html

Sounds like CD could actually be a finished product!  :beer:

EDIT: Under the comment section I saw this and it made me lmao

darkfire_storm wrote:
plus, no one actually gives a crap about these guys anymore.

it's funny cause you've obviously never been on one of the fan forums

This would be plausable. It was a real pricey album to record and the CD market is not what it used to be.

Hehe, when I first glanced at the thread I thought somebody had thought the album would feature songs in Finnish!  That would be a good reason for why its taken so long - its a difficult language to learn!

i dont wanna be an ass, but the last few words of that article are "...this is nothing new".

I heard on tv news today that some big record companies no longer will put out singles in the future..... not profitable or something. Guess all that shit lately with record company's, money involved, all play a part in the delay. Since it seems that the album is really done? I wonder where that cool album is, why is it collecting dust.  :(

That's freaking dumb! What will they profit off of then? Nothing? Just make a format that could not be ripped onto a PC.

They should remove everything on the official website and just have a picture of the album that's really dusty and the room filled with cobwebs. People would go nuts.

Nuts with awesomenesss. WOoooo Vodka

I bet the record companies will now be angling to try and get a cut of concert tour $$'s and merchandise off the back of the album - seems to be the only place left where there are still $$'s to be had.

So even when the album was reportedly supposed to come out in fall out 06 which was stated in Axl's open letter, do you think Geffen would of hold the cd back then as they are doing now ?  seems pretty interesting Geffen spends all this money on a CD and not release it.  j\Just release it !!!! you know everyone is gonna buy it.  It would be diffrent if no one ever talked about it ( punch lines ect) I think Geffen is making a huge mistake delaying longer they will probaly lose more money as if say they released in april or may.

Anybody think that it could be the label making the situation untenable for the album to be released and thus Axl takes the album to another label?  In doing so, the contract would in effect be torn up, something that the label might want, ie to remove themselves from contracted obligations......

Nobody knows the deal between Axl and the Label, given recent movements in the industry in general, this could be the cheaper option for the label, lose whats already gone and protect themselves from future losses.  In some cases, some bands have been granted extra monies when target sells have been achieved, if this is the case with Guns n' Roses, maybe the threat (funny how close that word is to treat)  of the album selling too many copies and even more obligations becoming into play. If the number of sales is tied into a deal where another album would become required at a given rate, maybe the price is now too high, getting the band off its books maybe the best option for the label - and as per usual, the label says "sod the fans" but then that's nothing new is it......

Nah, Axl would come out and say "Hey guys it's in the record companies' hands now" so everyone would get off of his ass. If there ever was a time for him to release an open letter, that would be it.

Axl doesn't give two hoots what people think, he'd be a broken man if he did. Think its fair to say, that he's been there, done that and got the tee shirt. He's proven that the hired guns stigma that the media and the sceptics tried to pin on him doesn't faze him whatsoever, if anything he's gone the extra mile to prove the doubters wrong... and I guess I'm one of them, but I'm coming round to the idea that the label have not only got the album, but are the bottleneck into getting the thing out. Just give 'im what he wants will ya, and let us have what we want as well  :peace:

Let's do this.  I'll pay per track, whatever we have to do.  Traditional release, non-traditional, summer, Christmas, whatever it takes.  Let's just get the plan into motion.

Hmm. So if the reports are true, basically what has happened is GNR has fiddled around with this album so long that albums (at least $13 million albums) are no longer viable. So I know someone will come in here and tell us it's not Axl's fault, it all the record company's fault now.

Yet, a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, if it had been released, it may not face this problem. 


sorry, I'm just cynical after all these years of "It's coming really, really soon ... ah, wait, don't hold your breath ... but it'll be out really really soon, uh, but don't wait for it, but it's basically done and should be out soon, but don't get your hopes up, but it's coming, or not, or it is or ..." who gives a flying fuck? It'll come out when it comes out, or it won't. The safe money is on won't.

The issue is with who owns the masters.  Based on the amount of money the record company fronted to produce the album, I'd say the record company does.  They will likely want to recoup expenses by getting in on tour, merchandise, etc. action.  Meanwhile, I can only imagine how Axl is going to react to that deal.  This thing could be litigated for years to come people. 

How do we get a statement from the record company?  Someone with some time and ambition should work their magic and get a statement from Geffen since the band isn't talking. 

Granted it's taken a heckuva long time to get this album finished but what most people fail to recgonize or give any credence to is how much Guns N' Roses has been through since the words Chinese Democracy were first uttered.  When GNR re-appeared in 2001-02 it looked like things were going in the right direction.  And obviously they wrote a lot of material, BUT Buckethead was a major player in the band and he left and wasn't replaced until 2006.  So I don't really see how they could've released the album 3 or 2 years ago when they were minus a guitar player.  And you could argue they could've gone with just 2 guitarists, but that was obviously not in their plans.  Then in the summer of 2006, Brain distanced himself from the band.  Both Ron and Frank were brought in to make their presence felt.  I know it could be argued that it shouldn't have taken 4 years to find a replacement for Buckethead, and maybe it shouldn't have, but it did for one reason or another.  I really don't think we should be looking to blame anyone.  What good does that do?  It doesn't get the album in our hands any faster.  The album wasn't ready until the end of last year (supposedly), and the music industry is vastly different than it was in 1999.

ur not cynical... just pretty much dead on. i have a been a fan since i was a wee dipshit with no life experience. 20 yrs later basically... i know how the world works. let's face it. GNR is not the investment it was in the 80's or early 90's. there is no way in HELL the record company will make $13 million from CD.... lol... that's laughable. There is no way in hell GNR will sell atleast 8 million copies... which sound about right to make up $13,000,000!!!!

GNR can sell out a few shows... A FEW... without the original line-up... no chance in hell. This bullshit of holding up the record for 13 damn years has come back to bit axl hard in the ass!!!! he can't climb out of the hole he dug for himself. he knows it... they know it. he'll have to tour for 10 years to make up that money... make enough to pay the new band... pay royalties to the old band... and continue to make money for himself.

CD will not come out... is it so hard to admit??? FUCK... to some people its like a heroin addiction... they can't let it go.

Some shows' attendance have been lackluster, but it's pretty silly to make judgments about the new lineup just yet. Tons of people are still pouring into the shows for a band that hasn't had a new album in 14 years. That's pretty impressive.

I mean, how many people from the original era were die-hard GNR fans? Some, yeah. Some thought Axl was hot and in the words of some forum member, "November Rain makes their vaginas wet". Which is a un-eloquent way of saying that charismatics may have had a role. Some people liked 'Sweet Child' on the radio.

When 'Chinese Democracy' comes out and people listen to it, who are you to say that a new generation won't find GNR or absolutely love the new material? People obviously still love GNR regardless of members who have departed. It's more of a big deal to the hardcores that hold onto a grudge than anyone else.

i totally get ur point too...

i went to 2 of the new band shows... hell they were amazing!!! they really were... IMO gave the old GNR a good run their money... any day of the week.

but the US music scene is not the same. come on... the biggest selling rock band is LINKIN PARK!!!!! and NICKELBACK is close there too... WTF?????

exactly... people that buy that garbage... don't generally strike me as sophisticated enough to buy CD. I know what you're gonna say... don't underestimate the general public... I do and I have the right to... let's face it the general public is stupid. That's why I don't even listen to the radio anymore...

I guess I would have to see GN'R make another splash like it did before. People lining up at midnight... waiting for HOURS to buy the UYI cassettes... I did that with my bro... don't see people doing that anymore. The generation after us are too fucking lazy. They wan't everything handed to them. Lyrical meaning... musical depth... it means shit today.

I miss those days... when music meant something in the mainstream.

Could be the record label doesn't know what to do with it, or how to market it. Whatever the label does is going to cost them money; release it and they may not make any money back, releasing it with no promotion would be a death nail. And pumping money into promotion they may not recoup could be too scary of a risk. Shelving it will cost them zero extra dollars. He may have waited too long. :-\

Yeah I understand your point, I'm just conservative and have a "wait and see what happens" approach. Obviously 'wait' isn't a popular term in the GNR community.  :P

In my opinion, Chinese Democracy can make an impact on the music scene and the industry as a whole. How large an impact remains to be scene but around the time of AFD the music scene was tepid with uniformity and electronic new-wave pop, and I think Axl has some powerful words to say on this record, so I really believe in him and the band.

I want GNR to return to their 'former' glory too, but I think this album will need to grab people's attention bursting fanbase thing can happen again for the 2nd record. So whatever the holdup is, I may not like it but I sure as hell respect it.

I don't think it will never come out, I actually do think it will. But it will probably be a long while before it sees the light of day. And it could be the label has specific plans for it, they really have no clue what to do with it, or they're trying to sell it off. Either way, I have no doubt it's a great record, but that really doesn't help the labels interest in this matter. And unfortunately, their's is the only one that matters at this point.

I don't think GNR will make an impact sales wise, I just don't think this is going to be a HUGE record; its probably going to be a big disappointment sales wise. But what will matter is that it could become a success in a critical sense. I really think its going to get high marks as a powerful and relevent record. That might be a victory in itself.

If all three or four records end up making a profit then it will be a success. I just hope we're able to hear the second one. Sadly, we may only get one GNR album out of the four, folks.

I'd be happy with that.

I'd be a little disappointed if all we got was one album and we've heard half the tracks already. Not that we're meant to have heard them (other than the live environment)  but still....

I'd be quite happy if they released every song out there, good or bad, then I could make up my mind which ones I like. I'd pay good money for it too

But Axl must have known when He played a few live songs in 01/02 that someone would be recording it either video/audio,
Although I know leaks are better quality, but the only undoing of this is Axl, He could of road the wave that the leaks created and
use that as promotion for the album, but The wave came and gone, and Axl's left stranded with the record company...

I just hope he lets us know if its coming out soon or not in the next few months, so Us fans can get the heads up,
the last bit of news/information we got out of axl was in december 2006, 2 years ago...

Time to Axl himself come and bring some news

No offence to the man but I'd rather hear from Universal/Interscope/Geffen whoever is releasing this.

I dont think 14 years is enough time.......I dont think its quite ready. I would prob. tweak some things for about 4 - 5 more years first to make sure its perfect. Maybe get Weird Al Yankovic to redo Pitmans parts ...add some acordian, then switch back to pittman again 3 or 4 times. Nope I dont think the time is right.....wait for the industry to go acordian.

How about a stadium type show with a pay per view deal and a DVD (The making Of)/CD release) following immediately?

Longer than the Lord of the Rings trilogy and credits costing more than Star Wars, hang on, that's the sticking point....... :rofl:

Any info from either of them would be nice!  And I don't really think the label gives a fuck so that would put the onus on Axl.  It's his baby. 

ps...I'll bet money that they are trying to put together a GNR reality show.  (Axl Rose is 45...or something like that).

Actually, this would be very cool.  Start the show when Axl turns in the CD and show the entire process of marketing such a legenday CD and band.  then follow the band on what happens over the next few years. 

please dont bet very much on it. Axl. Reality/Osbournes/Gene Simmons kinda TV show...?


EDIT - hey, and finally, (after deletions), 666 posts! Whooo!

it's not very likely but it could happen, wouldn't bet any money on it but i'd bet that VH1 and mtv have tried it

I'd rather see a serious documentary than those.


congrats! when I got to there, I didn't feel like posting for a while. the point of leet was also great. ;D

I'm surprised you can remeber back that far, you at 666 must have been pretty close to the year 666.

I would like to know why my posts are being removed... that's not quite fair now is it?

Clowns.

And yes... i have a lot of posts because this site is awesome, and even though I'm a fan and keep posting doesn't mean that I'm so much a "fan" of the NEW gn'r which really isn't gn'r at all..


get real man

You're the one who makes himself look like the clown by posting shit in the wrong thread just because you crave attention.




/jarmo

Yep: Game, Set , Match, we have a winner  :hihi:

Eh?

@Bartlet Oh My Choking Soul is talking about a doggy calendar on which GNR set out for cd in the year 3000 bc or so.   
lets not go off topic further.

Everyone knows that GNR finished cd. Heres to GNR and the upcoming release :beer:

Ah, thanks.

Anyway, indeed ppbebe. rock on. or somesuch  :peace:

...  er assumes it's finished at least.  Nobody from the GNR camp ('cept for the "you heard right" email) or the label has said anything official about it.

It's perplexing why if the label is the hold-up that Axl wouldn't want an update to be issued.  I know I would be jumping up and down screaming that it isn't my fault this time!  Maybe it's not done.  I see no reason to assume it is.

So have you been in a time machine Bodine?

Well besides Bach, Fortus, and other sources confirming that it's done and "everybody knows that" we were updated by Del James in February 2007 telling us that recording is done. Now I don't know the interworking of mixing and mastering, but common sense tells me that it doesn't take a year to do so.

And then there's Mysteron's comments stating, "The delay is being caused by the record company. The ball is in their court now."

Even if Axl came out and said CD was finished and it's up to the record company now, that still wouldn't make things right for some people.  Already people in this very thread have stated that it's STILL Axl's fault because it's taken so long.  So even if he tried to clear the air, it wouldn't make much of a difference.  Not until we all have copies of CD for ourselves.

you get real.

you aren't a real fan.   and you aren't someone with ANY authority to decide was is or isn't GnR.

While I want to agree with you . I do think it is a bit stupid saying that some one isn't a true fan.

They very well could be a true fan of the older line up.

Common sense tells you a lot of things that do not apply when you're talking about Guns N' Roses.  In regards to your time machine comment, I don't know maybe I'm one of those 'monkeys' you like to talk about, but I don't get what you're driving at . . .

maybe, but its lame to come to a GnR board to troll about something thats been gone for 15 years.   

Talk about authority? Well you're it aren't you?

Talking tough, and saying this and that and that and this?... Doesn't matter.

I'm just tired of this no news no show Gn'R stuff as we all are. Saying I'm not a true fan is almost immature. So lets pick out a real name Jim Bob and make your next post count even more.

And yes Bobarcord is quite accurate, I'm more a old fan than a new one.

I don't think he feels the need to do so for us, the almighty fans, for whom he makes the songs.

thats why the delay and no news/ update. its because axl respects us all far too much for that!  ::)

How can you be SO frustrated about the band that you don't even accept as GNR AT ALL ? ??? Very strange.

immature is coming to a board about a band you do not like.   if you only like the old, you are wasting your time here

do you have anything good to say at all? like really?

grow up or leave. : ok:

Gotta love the people here... bunch of fools.

I like the new GNR as well guys. It's hard to accept them as Guns N' Roses when there's been no album for so many years. So instead of growing up and making this thread into something else... look at my original statement.

Gang bang Thorned_Rose!! YEAH!

People like you are very popular here. 

Shut the fuck up and get back on topic.  :)




/jarmo

You know what Jarmo my man?

You're right, lets cut the shit.

ANyways. I don't think CD will be out anytime soon. We've all said "this year" and so on. I guess we'll know when it's actually out.

I do believe the master copy is done though and ready for mass production.

If you believe its done, how could the whole scenario turn to be the same thing as the past years?

 :hihi: maybe because it isn't his fault this time?

he said we will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date, and the album will be released as shortly thereafter as is possible.

I'd expect to see no official update on cd but about the imminent release date.

I dunno about you guys but since the news dropped that it is finished and turned in, I have stopped listening to the new songs that were leaked. I figure I don't want to be listening to the album for the first time and be trying to spot how the polished ones are different from the leaks (as I suspect many people on this board will be doing). I just want to listen to it and be blown away.

i agree
i want to be able to blast it off my deck,in the summer.im hopin by then something more then leaks.

Maybe we should start a "look forward to CD Thread" maybe thats Dead Horse material, but I think that it's a step forward if anything. Personally, I can't wait to hear 'Chinese Democracy' and 'Better'. I really dig those songs. And of course I look forward to Ron's fretless on 'Chinese'.  :)

That thread needs to wait until we get a definitive release date...which in itself would be a step forward.

METAL' MIKE CHLASCIAK: GUNS N' ROSES 'Is Capable Of Totally Turning Rock Around' - Jan. 25, 2008

Michael O'Brien of Australia's The Metal Forge recently conducted an interview with guitarist "Metal" Mike Chlasciak (PAINMUSEUM, HALFORD, SEBASTIAN BACH). A couple of excerpts from the chat follow:

On touring with GUNS N' ROSES for nearly a year:

"I think it has to do with us really liking what we do because it's our excitement. You've seen the fans and in L.A., L.A.'s seen everything so when we play our shows and the fans are so into it we get excited by it. We're kind of like a bunch of little kids who can't wait to go and play really! Sebastian's [Bach] like a 14 year old boy who never grew up. We just don't really know anything else. There's nothing else I would really want to do outside of it so for me it's just like this is how I keep going you know?"

"GUNS N' ROSES are one of the greatest bands of all time. They are a band that is capable of totally turning rock around. Even though now heavy metal and hard rock are really big they could be responsible for making things big. They have a huge dedicated fan base. The other thing that has blown me away about them is that the kids are so young you know? Most of these kids weren't even alive when 'Appetite for Destruction' came out!"

http://www.themetalforge.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1419

Thanks for the article :)
It's a good thing the band don't consist of drunken junkies imo. I don't even care about the name, it means nothing.

It was cool, hype and all that before but it's was so stupid in retrospect. I see some wan't Guns'Roses to be listpop, whatever matters for them.
I'm just gonna be happy if I like the music and Axl's ear-piercing sound. :peace:
Yeah, unless something weird happens.

Could this whole "record company is fucking with us" thing be a part of the promotion?

just think about it?

what would bring even more atention to this album?! If the most awaited album turns out to be blocked by the record company!

weather they want it or not... record company delaying the album gives even more attention to this (no)release.

yeah but go google news for Guns N Roses and see what come up.  :-\

I understand what you are saying, but I think the attention is only created inside the hardcore fans.

Wow, do I hope not.  It's time to let the music speak for itself and put the never-ending asinine rumors and speculation to rest, you know (I'm saying this in general, and not in response to your specific post)?  Personally, I feel that any sort of finger-pointing or fanning-of-flames from either side only further undermines what the band has been working to accomplish the past few years - touring, finishing the album(s), etc.  I don't want a commemorative box set, a re-recorded AFD, or a souvenir T-shirt.    I just want to hear the new music that has been 13+ years in the making.   :beer:

well... most likely it's not... because, if history has thought us anything... when there's something bad happaning,... it's not a part of a master plan... it's actually something bad happening.

but either way... although it's not been talked much yet... wait a few days, and the internet portals will be exploding.
all it takes is for Hard Rock/Classic Rock to relay the news, and every possible portal (including the www.birdwatchersonline.com ) will be publishing it.


now... IMO there's some chance this is a part of the promotion, or at least an attempt by the band to put a pressure on the record company.
we've known that the band has been negotiating/renegotiating since jan2006... and that the album was finished last year...
They've keept quiet for so long... why all of the sudden this outburst of information? There's a reason for it. Hopefully we'll know what it is... soon.


in the end... planned or not... it's a good asset for future promotion. all it takes is someone with minor marketing talent to use it. Hopefully the band finds someone who'll know how to use all of the mystique/intrigue/ of the album to use it. 
it would be a shame to let all of these assets created over the years go to waste.

This latest event is something that could create a lot of buzz... it's only a matter of finding someone who could put it to good use.

I'm just afraid, that as always... this will turn out to be a fussnote in the history of the band...

Eddie Trunk host of "Friday Night Rocks" in NYC on Q104.3 (NYC, NJ, LI, CT) has updated his blog on Guns N' Roses, about the now infamous Chinese Democracy album. Eddie Trunk has posted the following on his blog:

"I hear the new G&R CD is actually done, but the delay in release is not the bands issues but the label. There is so much money tied up in this record that in today?s business it will be virtually impossible to be profitable, meaning the label might want to sell it off but can not find a buyer since nobody buys CDs anymore. Problem might not be Axl (rose) this time around and might keep this CD in limbo for more years to come. Hopefully it gets resolved."


"I?ve heard rumors that maybe the album was finished, and it was actually handed-in, I guess it could be true. I do find it believable that Geffen or Interscope is the one holding back the album. There have been artists on that label whom have had their albums pushed back and delayed for odd reasons. Resulting in many artists leaving the label, so this is nothing new."

Geffen Records or a representative were not immediately available to comment on the report.

Same stuff has been said before by different people, nothing new that we hadn't previously known.

 :-\

we the fans should buy it.  lol :rofl: just need 20 million or so... :drool:

People focus so much on how much money has been invested into the forthcoming albums, but forget how much income has been generated from previous albums.

Very nice to have you back.  We're always in need of some perspective around here.    :beer:   

Exactly.

You don't sell about 80+ million albums and not make any money...




/jarmo

In the end, even if the Chinese Democracy recording sessions don't recoup for the label, the Gnr recording agreement was an EXTREMELY profitable one. Sometimes you take the good with the bad. However, all in all, Geffen and now Uni has made quite a killing off the Gnr brand and Axl Rose.

ps Mysteron, like to comment on that "albums" thing? :hihi: :rofl:

^ Isn't it common knowledge that there are several albums on the way from GNR?  The press loves to have a field day touting CD as a $12, $13, sometimes $15 million album...it's totally misleading.  Take whatever number is out there and divide it by 3 or 4 and there you have your cost/album.

 

I agree, but Motley Crue ran into this problem in the late 90's while on the Generation Swine tour-about how much money they made for Electra (I may have spelled that wrong), and yet they were having all kinds of problems with the label-Guns made them tons of money, but greedy execs have short memories

Here's a reminder:

Top Pop Catalog
#1 This Week

Guns N' Roses
Greatest Hits
Geffen   

Peak 1
Wks On 200

   
Chart Issue Date: 2008-02-02


GH is selling more copies than  Eagles' "The Very Best Of",  Tom Petty And The Heartbreakers' "Greatest Hits" and Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon"





/jarmo

Draven,of course, but the Gnr recording agreement was not a one album deal (and Motley Crue didn't sell near as many records worldwide as Gnr did). Record labels are greedy bastards who have wrecked rock and roll and their own industry. In the end, the biggest question is "did the artist recoup the costs over the life of the recording agreement/contract?" Whatever happens with the Chinese Democracy recording sessions will only minimally affect Geffen's profit margins over the life of the agreement. They made a fucking killing off Gnr. That is reality.

Axl did not support putting out a greatest hits album-my point exactly about execs looking for his best interests and wantingt to make whatever money possible, not matter if it is a product the band does not endorse

Axl didn't support it and neither did Slash or Duff. Remember, before you blame Axl for all the costs, alot of recording costs were incurred from 94-97 when Slash and Duff were involved. However, by 98 they had left and Axl carried on shouldering the burden of being responsible for the recording costs.

"Since 1992, the parties have executed various amendments to the Recording Agreement, including most notably, two amendments dated as of May 1, 1998. One of these amendments, see Froeling Decl. Ex. D, confirmed Slash's and Duff's departure from the band and their status as ?Leaving Members? under the 1992 Recording Agreement, thereby relieving them of charges against their royalty accounts for the enormous recording costs and other expenses being incurred by Axl Rose (the only ?Remaining Member?[FN1] of Guns N' Roses) in connection with the recording of the new Guns N' Roses studio album."

that is straight from the the GH lawsuit document from awhile back....

I'm not blaming Axl, I'm blaming a record label for giving Axl any trouble at all, and for things like putting out a greatest hits record he and the former members did not want-if the record is 10 mil over budget or whatever, so what-I know I'm not living in the real world, after selling 80 million records, stadium tours, merchanside, ect., some of the things that have gone down sucks

The original band definitely deserved a better compilation than that-no doubt. But, it has been successful.  :peace:  The downside is that by releasing a premature GH, you dilute the sales of the rest of your catalog. In other words, instead of buying AFD or UYI, the casual fan just gets the GH. Unfortunately, the tracklisting for that GH sucks so some fans don't get to see how great Gnr actually was. The original catalog was still selling well so in my opinion, the label released the GH too early. They also created bad blood between them and their artist. :P

The greatest hits done properly by the band I think would have been great-it probably did add to the bad blood, of course-I would have loved Axl's promotion on it, or maybe liner notes he could have provided-instead they just put out an album with the hits-I'm 36-a lot of people on this board may be too young to remember the late 80's or early 90's to see how huge Guns were-Axl had a natural charisma and just something about him that you could feel in the air at the time-I remember MTV would have a whole Guns n Roses weekend, or a Guns/Metallica weekend-Motley Crue were just as big in the late 80's-I hated the way Motley was treated by a lot of the media in the 90's-I'm getting off topic here-but at this point if they are haggling with Axl over marketing, they truly have no clue-Guns had great music, but it was just everything about them, and you didn't have to market it, it was just there-if I worked at that label, I would pretty much let Axl do what he wants-he already did it once

I don't get it ? if GH is selling like hot cakes then why don't they just release Chinese Democracy !!!!  I would love to be a fly on the wall in geffen headquarters.

You'd have plenty of company as a fly, I'm sure there are plenty of flies there...flies love bullshit.   :hihi:

STOP PRESS! OLD GNR ALBUMS STILL MAKE MONEY! Jesus.

I believe Jarmo was just pointing out that GNR still has great selling power despite little to no promotion of the Greatest Hits. They've managed to stay week to week on the Top Charts and I think it's great that we're not the only people out there still in love with the band. If/when CD hits mainstream, I believe it'll sell greatly.

yeah i know, its just so frustrating for people to go round in circles about the finances. I mean, who didnt realise long ago that of course they still make money on old stuff, and that thtat compensates the label for money spent on CD? Its just so old, and no one has a clue about CD figures anyway, apart from the apocryphal 13 mil.


In fact, im agreeing with jarmo really - you dont sell 80 nillion without making some money. And that applies to the label more than to the band, really.

I'm feeling positive tonight that the forthcoming cd will be a top priority for the label after the restructuring has completed.  It would be interesting to know if GN'R have hired a new management team, if so who they are and what role they might be playing in working things out with the label.  Lets just hope that the voices of reason prevail.

People aren't in love with this version of Guns , I hate to be the asshole , but people are still in love with Guns a la Axl and Slash. Everyone I have met , outside of this board,  either thinks Axl is an idiot and new GNR is a sad excuse for a band or want the old line up back ( sometimes both ). The masses don't look at this GNR as GNR , to a lot a lot of people it is  still ( and always will be ) Axl and Slash....

thats a load of bullshit.   most of the people who would say such garbage probably haven't even seen the band the way it is today and don't have enough knowledge to make a real judgement.     

Besides, Guns is Guns.   Its still Guns N' Roses and Axl, and the name Guns N' Roses do have a lot of love.

Whats a load of bullshit , their opinion or that I said a lot of people think that? I agree most people who talk shit haven't seen the band and don't fully know GNR ( considering they think its Axl and Slash lol ) but thats what a lot of people think.

Guns Isn't Guns to lots of people , I'm not trying to be the douche but I haven't meant many people who think that outside this board.

This isn't really the thread for this argument but the only way to introduce this band to the masses obviously is to release the album.  GNR now is a band full of hugely talented people who obviously enjoy playing together and I think once they can actually get this album out some who may have been skeptical can realize this is the band now and stop harping on the past.

 :beer: But as of now its not out....

GNR's catalog has probably been the thing that has kept them on the label, but you also have to understand there has been a long line of execs at Universal who have come and gone who have tried to help Axl complete this album and they've had to put up with a whole bunch of bullshit.

Even though people defend Axl like he was their girlfriend around here, there has been a long trail of people at the label who've taken a bunch of bullshit from him. And it's really hard for me to believe that he has been the persecuted victim over the last decade in trying to make this album, and the big bad label has been throwing obstacles in front of him at every turn. No other label would have given him this much time and money to finish an album. Remember when they were going to give him a million dollar bonus to just finish it, and another million to bring it in on a specific date? Yeah, what a bunch of assholes.

And to say people shouldn't concentrate on the money pumped into this album... Um, it's easy to say that when its not your money. It doesn't matter how much their old albums bring in, when they pay for a specific PRODUCT they want to recoup that money. The music labels aren't in the business of spending any ammount of money on an artist to make a NEW product and being okay that they make nothing on their investment, especially in this age of music. Just being satisfied with the monthy royaltee check isn't going to make it okay... Ask Mariah Carey and Michael Jackson that, who have all been booted off their labels when their hugely over budgeted albums bomb while past albums still bring in more money than GNR.

if I paid someone, put them under contract, paid for all their supplies and expenses, to paint my house and it takes them ten years to do it, I'd be pretty pissed too.

 :beer:

Good points mister but I still think wasting more time looking for the perfect marketing strategy isn't going to help in the long run either or whatever the reasoning is for the holdup at this point.  I mean no one really knows the exact reason-we know it's being held up but still no official word from the record company as to why.  I don't think anyone is saying that Axl is innocent in the holdup in the past just that he most likely isn't in control of the holdup right now. 

This is probably the strangest-ever music story to follow . . .  Really kinda wish I could've stopped paying attention a long time ago .  But I'm hooked  : ok:

I agree, I don't think for a second Axl is holding this up. But I'm sure the label is trying to figure out how and who exactly to market this mega-monster to. It doesn't fit in any genre, it doesn't fit in with what the kids are listening to, or even what older fans are listening to, either. If its a bomb they're also going to look stupid. 

I still believe that they're waiting for summer to release it.

And if they want to sit on it, unfortunately, they can. I don't think they're going to purposely eat it just because they're being mean to Axl. He's the one who's pushed them into a corner here, so a lot of it is his fault. And I'm also certain that Chinese Democracy is far from the top of their list of priorities, too.  This is a thorny project, that's for sure.

But you also gotta recongize that why it took so long was finding the right members for the band.  People where leaving left in right due to not wanting to tour and being in the band just to make a name for themselves.   Guns N' Roses r finally a well oiled machine and have been touring the last two years so now Axl is hard at work getting this album out and it will come out !!!!! think about it Axl  doesn't wanna get a group of guys that r lousy musicans and don't fit the image of the band that's why it took so long.  People wanna say well Axl took this long and that well what the hell do we know !!!! about the situation we don't I want the album out as much as anybody else does but it takes time.  I can honestly say we will see the album shortly I believe that and if your not down with that then got back in your time machine and relive the past cause Im ready for the present.

Here's a little thing, I think an artist should go about making art their way. But he's been putting the finishing touches on the album for at least 7 years, and from that time, three albums has turned into four albums for Chinese Democracy. So I doubt he has been working on finishing the one, singular album for those seven years. Which, like it or not, was his responsibility to the label to do.

He said himself in 2002 that it was time to "wrap the bitch up" and stop tinkering with it. But, he is an artist, and he can create the way he likes. But right now it looks like he's paying the consequences for his method.

I don't believe in anything.

Mister ID, long time no argue! ;D Just a couple of points.....
1. The Gnr catalog outsold Mariah Carey and Michael Jackson in the US for 2007. Go look it up at Billboard or refer to an earlier thread I made. They actually outsold the Beatles too.... : ok:
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/charts/yearendcharts/chart_display.jsp?f=Top+Pop+Catalog+Artists&g=Year-end+Top+Artists
2. Of course, the label wants to recoup for Chinese and Axl is certainly no saint. But, as I have stated, in the end, labels want to recoup for the overall recording agreement, not just one record. We still have no idea what is going to come out of the Chinese Democracy recording sessions anyway. Did every Rolling Stones record recoup for the label? I highly doubt it but you take the good with the bad and look at the big picture.
3. The label paid Axl back for his sins by cutting off funding in early 2004 and then releasing a GH album AGAINST his wishes.

If this ever was a Daffy Duck-cartoon ("So you realise this means war !")...

I'd like to believe that they are even now. We can only hope that this is the year to leave speculations behind !

If you read the previous post by GNR4L, he explains things quite well.  Sure AXL has been working on and putting the finishing touches on the album for 7 years.  But in that time guitarists and drummers have come in and out the door.  Should Axl have released the album from 2003-2006 when there was no replacement for Buckethead yet?  Doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  Seems to me, this current lineup came together in the summer/fall of 2006 after Brain left.  Seeing as how the album was supposedly finished near the end of 2007, it took about 15 months for the current incarnation of GNR to wrap this thing up.  Doesn't seem too crazy to me.

Bottom line, I don't think anyone should be looking to place blame for any of this.  Everyone played a part, Axl, former and current members, the record company.  Blaming people isn't gonna get the album here any quicker, so what's the point?

Here's what I can't understand:

At what point did the label realize they would have a hard time recouping their investment on this?  When they spent that 13 millionth dollar? How is this just becoming an issue now that the record is finished? Supposedly they cut off funding in 2004.  The record business wasn't exactly on the uphill swing then either. They should have seen this coming a long time ago.  They played their part in creating this monster and now they just need to deal with it.  Meanwhile, they're not recouping shit by having the thing sit on ice.  But like someone else said, execs have come and gone and who even knows who is running the show at this point. 

What I don't get is that GN'R is an icon, new band or not. GN'R CD's will sell millions regardless. Axl said there's a ton of new material. Get this one out ala Radiohead, then the next, then the next within 12 months. By disk three release some sort of uber $100 box set containing all three disks, throw in some advertising to make Axl happy and they'll have their money back with plenty to boot.

Sure, there is no persecuted victim here.  But, everyone, including the label has played a role in this situation getting out of hand.  Did it really take the $13 million barrier being crossed before they realized that the situation was out of hand?  They could have cut off funding sooner and kept this a $7 million situation instead of a $13 million situation.  What about the fact that Axl said there were times they thought they had the right collection of songs and the people at the label didn't agree?  People in the record company had many opinions and they wanted to make the best possible record. Every time that we thought that we had the correct songs, then somebody thought that we could make it better. We started over, we continued adding songs, continued recording and recording.  from an interview on Jan. 22, 2001.

Sure, it was generous of them to offer bonuses to finish the record.  But, what's more important, getting the record done or getting it done right?  If the artist isn't happy with the record and it is released anyway, who is that going to benefit?  The artist may be less inclined to promote the record, or at least promote it in an enthusiastic way, so that's not going to help record sales and consequently the label.

While I understand your point, the house-painting analogy doesn't seem completely applicable to me.  This situation is far more complex than simply painting a house.  Regardless, laying blame for what has already transpired won't help the record get out or the label to recoup their money.  It's a messy situation, but what's done is done and it's time to do the best with the situation as it is.

Ali

Altho i phone is tempting I'd wait a while for a number of improvements. 
It's not one of necessities of life when you have your cellphone, i pod, notepc etc already.
I'd rather wait to get the better/best version.

The fact that executives basically kept telling him that it wasn't good enough yet kind of worries me.  I think we all just assume that this album is gonna be amazing because Axl is a perfectionist and it's taken so long, but maybe the long time is a result of mediocre material.  I hope this isn't the case, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.  I really enjoy most of the new songs, not sure if it's the novelty of new gnr songs or if it's that the songs really are great though.  I will say this though, the new songs didn't really blow anyone away at the concerts I went to in 2006. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I wouldn't worry about that because it's from an interview on Jan. 22, 2001.
It could be the situation before BH and brain joined.

Yeah, people weren't all blowing away for Estranged when it was first played on RIR2. And remember, that was a band most known by the AFD by that time, so the epic songs were not on their front yet.

To bad that album sucks for a greatest hits. Need more songs. and less covers. But we all ready know that. If there was input in to that album it would make the band look even better. At the sametime its still nice to have gn'r at #1

It might not have been that the songs weren't good enough, but more that they weren't commercially accessible enough.  There's a distinct difference.  "Civil War" and "Estranged" are great songs, but are not necessarily commercially accessible because of their structure and length.

Also, I know plenty of people that have been very impressed by "Madagascar", "Catcher In The Rye", "The Blues" and "Better".

Ali

I am with Ali on this one. All parties are to blame for the $13 million being spent on the album. If the label is stupid enough to lay out that kind of money for a rock record, then they get what's coming to them. As far as the quality of songs, all record companies will review a work in progress from time to time and give their opinion. IT HAPPENS WITH EVERY BAND! So, the Axl comment is normal and it doesn't mean the album was rejected. Plus, that is a comment from 7 years ago! :confused:

Isn't that one of the jobs the A&R guy does?




/jarmo

Proving Jarmo's point further..... He is saying GN'R have selling power , you just said it needed more songs and less covers and wasn't great yet it still outsold all those other records , now imagine a GN'R record that have all originals.....

Jarmo, I think so.....Axl also talked about the major change in personnel with Geffen during those years 97-01. He went from dealing with people who intimately knew him to dealing with people who didn't know him at all.

Right on.  By telling Axl either he needed more songs or more commercially accessible songs, or just different songs for whatever reason, the record company was in effect instructing Axl and the band to spend more and more money recording.  Therefore, they played a role, even if it was a small one, in the total cost of the record being what it is.  But, the more important and relevant point at this time is that all that is done and cannot be undone at this time.  The label, if they are holding a grudge, aren't doing themselves any favors with regards to recouping their investment.

Everyone is to blame to some extent here and therefore everyone should work together to try and make the best of the situation as it is.

Ali

If only the music industry was the simple lol

It takes time to build trust in any relationship, professional or otherwise.  That kind of trust I would think would be essential to the working relationship between an artist and those who are responsible for promoting and distributing his or her art.

Ali

The core-operation to record-industry was always to distibrute music.
I can see it collapse to becoming the music-buisness, one administration marketing music instead of a co-operation between many instances.

The company obviously have intrest and it's nothing new with conflict of intrest between artists and the companies.
Any names been set on the other forthcoming albums you speak of? Swedish Dictatorship? :P

Yeah I agree that sometimes new songs don't get a big reaction live right way, but we're talking about an unusual case of songs that have been in the works for 10+ (maybe not all of the songs, but the album anyways) years, and they're supposed be epic and great.  Or atleast that's what we all hope..  As far as record executives always questioning the commercial viability of songs, I agree, but the case of chinese democracy seems to be a little different.  With all of the stories about 1 million dollor bonuses,etc to turn the album in, doesn't it seem like the record company just wants to release the damn album?  If that's the case then the rejection of the songs and advice to go back and make better material becomes a problematic sign.  Then you have a record company that desperately wants to release an album at a great cost to them, but they then still reject the material when it's turned in becuase of the lack of quality.  Doesn't this seem like a troubling sign to anyone else?

I see what you are saying, but it seems like are you still assuming it's a lack of quality issue as opposed to a commercially accessible/radio-friendly issue.  It may be that because many of the songs, while they are good, don't have a traditional sing-along chorus that would make them more likely to be hits on radio.  In my estimation, "Catcher In The Rye", "Madagascar", "The Blues" and "There Was A Time" are all good songs, but none of them has that sing-along chorus that is a staple of most radio hits.

Ali

QFE.

Also, a lot of people both professional and not have really liked the new songs. Madagascar was hailed as a 'gorgeous piece', reminiscent of mid-period Beatles. Better was described as a 'triumphant composition with fuming guitars and perfectly textured harmonies.' The song Chinese Democracy was compared to the heaviest "Use Your Illusion" moments and described as a fist-pumping 'turbo-charged adrenaline rush.'

While about the performance of the band: 'judging from Los Angeles' response to "Chinese Democracy," another era of Guns N' Roses domination is imminent.'

Everyone may not agree on every track on the album but people are definitely digging the new tunes. People are just jaded. When the album finally does come out people will totally be into it methinks.

Yeah, I agree.  I think most of the new songs kick ass, and I can't wait to hear the studio versions.  The only one that I think is lacking a little is IRS it's not bad, but it doesn't seem in the same league as the others.  Plus, I think the title should be changed.  And maybe CITR (that's probably due to the demo quality though).  I'm just hoping all of our assumptions are true, and the "Big Guns" haven't leaked yet!  If you have Better, The  Blues, TWAT, Madagascar, and Chinese Democracy (although this song doesn't really fit with its simple and ambiguous narrative), that's a pretty kickass start.  Add on 5-7 "Big Guns" and the album will be quite special, and not just because it took so long to be released!!

I don't think we have any idea what is going to ultimately make it on the album.....a few of the leaks will,  but I don't think all.

Wasn't Estranged epic and great?

Plus, we're talking about a new band with new songs. GNR is not on top of popularity anymore. The reaction of the regular crowd would be way more cold, but the reaction of the fans who knows the new songs are always good.

No, it was 9 years ago. We know a lot of songs from this era and, IMO, they are all awesome.

If it was the case again, they wouldn't even hand the finished record mixed. :P

It's all about the he said she said bullshit.    Speculation speculation speculation.   So that's the latest rumour the label has the record huh....Hopefully thats the truth but  none of us know anything further until we hear from king dick AXL himself.  That said ive been waiting for more than a long long time for this alblum and at this point whats another 13 years. Soooooooooooooooo kidding

Hey madagas!  :beer:

The thing that gets me in this conversation is that people are still trying to level blame at Universal. Y'all would be going crazy if they didn't give Axl a blank check to be an artist and to create the way he wants to. But according to this crowd, since they gave him everything he wanted, it was their fault for supporting him? That's ridiculous.

Their cutting him off in 2004 and releasing the greatest hits is a huge statement that they've had it with his antics. And it still takes him three years after that to finish a supposedly finished album?

He has recieved all the support in the world and the label has done everything in their power to get this thing released short of taking him to court. If they cut off funding, they had every right to, just like they have every right NOT to release Chinese Democracy.

May I remind you that GNR has always had a revolving door of musicians. Hell, Gilby was hired right before the UYI tour. And with Buckethead staying on the album, his departure should not have effected the release of the abum at all. In fact, Axl said it would speed things up. Brain was replaced on the spot, and the only reason, according to Del James, that it took so long to get Bumblefoot was that Axl was still trying up to a week before the first new york gig with bumblefoot to get Buckethead back. So that arguement carries no weight at all.

As for the painting my house thing not fitting. Here, you pay someone to do something, THEY SHOULD DO IT and fullfill their obligation. It's very simple. He has made it difficult on himself. We're not reinventing the wheel here.

As for the residules from past GNR albums; the label spends and loses a great deal of money each year. They can't afford a huge bomb. They pumped money into this project to make a profit, and in the meantime they have caught nothing but grief from their artist and the media. They deserve to make money on this guys. Shit, I love Axl, but call a spade a spade for once. And after all this I'm positive Universal will still do all they can to make Chinese Democracy a success. But it is also their right not to do anything with it, and that's all on Axl.

No, no, no.  If they said to Axl, "you need to go back and record more songs" for whatever reason, they were basically instructing him to spend some more of their money.  Anyway, $13 million is too much to spend on recording an album.  They should have cut him off sooner.  There is no way it should have taken the $13 million barrier being crossed before they saw the situation was out of hand.  They were enablers in this situation by allowing it to get so far out of control.

There is a world of difference between creating a work of art and painting a house.  One can be easily put on an estimated time table, the other cannot.  And if you saw what the people painting your house were doing and said "I don't like this, I changed my mind on what I want, start over", YOU would be contributing to the delay in getting the job done.  That doesn't mean that the person doing the job is relieved of their responsibility to do it.  It just means that by either not being clear about what you wanted in the first place or by changing your mind mid-stream, you are playing in role in what is transpiring.

Therein lies the problem with the analogy.  You can tell someone to paint a house blue, but you cannot tell an artist what to create or else it won't be genuine and will ring hollow and false to all those listening to the music.

Everyone played a role in the situation getting to where it is now, not necessarily to the same extent, but the only way to make the best of it is for everyone to work together.  It's about getting the record out.  That's what's best for all involved.

Ali

True, but one can only hang his hat on past achievement for so long.  Eventually he was going to have to prove himself all over again.  Sure, Greatest Hits has sold great, but that's all music that came out at another time with the help of another group of people.  That's no guarantee that any of the new material or new band will be accepted en-masse.  That's not to say it won't, either - I certainly hope it will be.  But in the business context what's been spent is more relevant than past achievement.

That was nearly ten years ago when they told him to go back and work on the album! They wanted it to be better, so how is that being an enabler? They could have just released it, saved some bucks, and if it tanked they could cut their losses there. That was for HIS benefit as well as theirs, you might want to remember. Calling them enablers is just the lamest cop out I've ever heard. They didn't give him money to allow him to procrastinate ten years to finish an album. If you're handed a finished product, and you tell someone to work on it some more, you don't expect them to take 8 years to do it!

Plus, there have been many people on the label who came and went, starting when GNR was still relevant, which they're not now, who tried to help him, and even more people have inherited this burdon known as GNR and Chinese Democracy since then who've tried to help him. This isn't just one person who's been forking out money, people have tried to make this album a success and as good as it could be for a very long time. And business practices in music, and the music business itself has drastically changed since then as well.  And don't try to tell me that its somehow the labels fault because of Axl's behavior. He decided to drag ass, and again, he's paid/paying the price for it.

To give an artist support and huge funding, there is a trust factor there... Somehow you believe Axl is the only human in the world immune to this, and he should have free range to do whatever he wants, without having any responsibility to meet his obligations.

Yeah, he was enabled by the big mean record label who gave him money and support to finish his album because they had the gaul to think he should actually release it within a reasonable timeframe in return. Those mean ole bastards! How dare they! :hihi:


What are you talking about? Artists are put on time tables all the time. Let me try this again. You are in a business. You pay someone to make a product. It is then their responsibility to meet it. Axl obviously didn't, and they pulled the funding. So how in the world can you justify your argument when four years after the label stopped paying for recording that they are still at fault for enabling him? From his explanations, and those of Merck, he recorded when he "felt" like it. How many times since 2002 did Tommy, Brain and Richard say the album was finished/their parts were finished? The album has been in the final recording process for TEN YEARS!

If you have a huge investment, you want to get it out and for it to be a success. It's as easy as that. So if you want to throw full fault on the label, because 9 years ago they told him he could make the album better, then you are comepletely delusional and there is no getting through to you.

If I told someone to paint my house, decided I didn't like it, and told them to paint it another color, that does not give them a right to take ten years to do it. That's why business and artists are taken to court all the time.

In legal language its known as Good Faith.


I'm not putting full blame on Axl, I know he's had to deal with bullshit, and he's very unconventional, but there is a price for that. And I do not believe that this delay was all because of his "artistic" indulgences. Some of you really think he doesn no wrong. I hope, and truley believe Chinese Democracy will be released (this year  ;)  ), but I am completely baffled how people try to justify his bullshit. And they're not even on his payroll!!.... I don't think.

You could argue that they mindfucked him and hurt his confidence in what they'd been working on, fueling the perfectionist fire.  They gave him money to record, the band made what Axl thought was an album good enough to release, they sent him back to work.  It's possible that such a rejection bruised his ego and/or made him totally rethink everything they'd done to that point.  I'm not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility


Your math is off.  Interview from 2001, it's 2008, I'm counting 7 years, not 9.  You're also assuming that the record label didn't reject or suggest revisions to subsequent versions of the album which could very well have happened. 

I'm not saying the label is the only party at fault.  But you don't know the whole story.  You don't know how many times the label made "suggestions" about songs they'd recorded that may have caused Axl to second guess the work and added years onto the process.  You don't even know for sure that the label cut off funding, that's never been confirmed by anyone but an anonymous source for one newspaper article, who Merck said hadn't been involved with CD in many years.  You can't compare art and entertainment to painting a house.  Many albums and movies get delayed for years longer than anticipated, for a myriad of reasons, even with millions of dollars already invested.  It is a very frequent process in the entertainment industry.  The latest Superman movie took 9 years from the time they started production, they spent $50 million on pre-production costs just trying to get the project off the ground.  Same with Terminator 3, they spent millions in development costs and hit repeated snags throughout the 90's until it came out in 2003.  Batman Begins, again, development began in 1998 and they didn't start filming until 2004.  All of these are examples of movies that took many millions and many years more to get off the ground than was originally anticipated.  Shit happens, studio magnates have creative differences with the producers/directors/writers, studio execs come and go, the producers can't find a writer to capture their vision, whatever.  The point is that in the entertainment business, amount of money involved and the complexity of the behind the scenes stuff and label/studio politics are way too detailed to compare to such a simple process as painting a house.  And to further that point, what us outsiders do know is very little, about 99.99999% of what we've heard about why the album isn't out, including the supposedly cut off funding, rumor and innuendo from unverified/anonymous sources

Great post ShotgunBlues.  Well said.  Once again, it does no good to choose sides and figure out who's to blame.  It's all pure speculation on what actually has gone on.  If you've followed GNR (and Axl) for any length of time you'd know that they don't do things by the book and they're tight lipped on the goings on within the band.  That's the way it always has been, in the past to the present.  So it's really not worth the time and effort to take what you think you know and use that to try to place blame.  All parties have played a part in this.  There's no reason to put anyone on trial, it doesn't bring the album any closer to being released.  So in the meantime, enjoy your life and let the chips fall where they may.

 ??? Basically, What is the blame for?

Now the album is finished and there're a few more succeeding ones. is that horrible?

It's not GNR's fault that the industry is in the mess, is it?

The interview where Axl revealed that the record company instructed them to go back and record more was only seven years ago, for one thing.

It's not a cop out at all.  If you basically instruct someone to redo their work and spend more money in that effort, you are helping to push that overall total of money spent on recording sessions higher.

And please, don't say it was for Axl's benefit that they instructed him to go back and record more.  They instructed him to do that for their own benefit as much as anything, so that they could have an album that would sell more.

And I'm not saying eight years is a reasonable amount of time to finish a record.  But, first off, let's be clear here.  It isn't ONE record.  It's several RECORDS, plural.

No matter what you think or say, they could have cut off funding sooner so that this would be a less glaring expense.  If their argument was a pattern of not finishing the record prompted them to release the GH, then the pattern had long since been established.

My point was the record company enabled the total cost of the recording reaching $13 million.  They could have cut off funding sooner.  They are not responsible for anything that has happened since they cut off funding in terms of money spent.  The label is not responsible for Axl's behavior.  They are responsible for the funding reaching the total it did.

Yet another reason why your house-painting analogy is flawed is that Axl and the band have been recording multiple albums, or painting multiple houses, so the timeframe expectation for one house is not applicable.  No matter what you say, you cannot compare the creative process to something like painting a house.  Sure you can put time frames on both, but one involves creativity, the other doesn't.  If you stifle the creative process by putting boundaries on it in terms of time, the art will suffer.  If the art suffers, no one, including the record label who is trying to profit off it, wins anything.  Sure, there are limits, but you have to balance the desire to have the product out so you can make money with what is best for the quality of the product.   Eight years would be too much for an album, but when they were pushing him to finish in 2000 or 2001, the band had only been together for a couple of years, really.  Then Robin left and Bucket was brought in as a replacement.  Then Josh Freese left and Brain was brought in.

For the last time, no one is throwing "full fault" at the label.  I am only saying that they played a role.  I'm not saying that role is larger than Axl's.  It is a role, however.

Now having said that, the only way to get this thing out with the interests of all parties taken to heart is for all parties to work together.

Ali

Oh yeah, I find it odd that Geffen would have a problem with the record as it was in '99 or 2000, when their own A&R man was quite fond of what he heard.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1467

The Robin Finck/Josh Freese/Tommy Stinson/Billy Howerdel/Dizzy Reed version of the album that existed in 1998 was pretty incredible. It still sounded like GNR but there were elements of Zeppelin, Nine Inch Nails and Pink Floyd mixed in. If Axl had recorded vocals, it would have been an absolutely contemporary record in 1999.

Ali

1. So basically, you're saying that instead of Axl saying "Fuck off" to the suits and finding another way to release it, he reacted like a pimply 12-year-old girl and lost all confidence in himself and his music because some guy in a tie told him that CD wasn?t good enough. Hmmm. Doesn?t sound like the Axl we all know and admire. If it is, then I think his days of being admired are in the toilet. Plus any record executive that is warm to the touch would be smart enough to know that dumping a substandard GNR album on the market would still bank big bucks. GNR was, and possibly still is, bullet proof from music critics. It still would have sold several million copies. It doesn't make sense that a guy in a suit would stop this album until the last year or so, because, for whatever reason, the powers that be waited until releasing the album was no longer financially viable. But even with that, you're going to recoup at least some of money by releasing it.
Sitting on it is a stupid business decision and is just kissing the millions spent good bye. Anyone with any business experience and or savy would recognize a bad investment, do what they could to get whatever they could out of it, write off their losses and move on.

Of course considering the current state of the music industry, it's dubious as to whether or not anyone involved has any business sense or savy.

2. Now your math is off. Production for Superman Returns (awful movie BTW) didn't start 9 years prior to release. You're confusing the different pitches that were made (my favorite was an adaption of the death of Superman comic story). Different story ideas and scripts were shopped around for years on all of the movies you mentioned, but not a single frame of film was spent, nor was a set built for any of these films until a year or two before their release. There were lots of rumors, story ideas and a few scripts, but nothing was started until the films got a green light.

And movies are a much larger investment than albums. SR was rumored to have cost upwards of $250 million to produce. Batman was over $100 million to produce. Plus these films are all tied into merchandising and marketing that would make any record company's head swim. Many movies' expenses double once marketing is figured in. So even if it did take SR nine years to be "produced" as you claim, there was a lot more riding on it than the  rumored $13 million spent on CD.

You don't know what you're talking about.  WB was trying to develop a new Superman movie from 1997 forward.  In the end that movie became Superman Returns.  What you're talking about with different scripts and different stories wasn't free.   Pre-production for movies costs money.  The writers don't work for free. 

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117952909.html?categoryid=1350&cs=1

There you go.  $40 million in production costs before they even began shooting, which didn't occur until 2005.  Whether or not you thought it was a good movie has nothing to do with it.  But don't tell me I'm wrong when you don't have a clue what you're talking about.  And I don't see what pointing out the obvious (that movies cost more than albums) has to do with anything.  The point is that the entertainment industry has production and release delays constantly, even when people have spent millions on the project.  The music and film industries are a lot more closely tied than trying to compare a big budget entertainment industry projects to a process as simple as painting a house

Now as for Axl, yeah, he could've told the suits "fuck off".  But he's smarter than that.  You don't get to break your contract when the label has spent as much money as they did on CD.  Axl is wise enough to realize that by telling the label to fuck off, it would've ruined his chances of succeeding with the new band.  There is no "other way" of releasing the album short of buying it from them and then buying out your contract which isn't financially realistic.  This isn't a situation where he can just say "fuck you", take his recordings and release them another way.  It doesn't work like that, not when the label paid for the recordings. 

And on the other side the record label is smart enough to realize GnR is one of the few acts with true staying power, they would rather make money off of multiple future GnR albums, not just one.  So they're not going to be anxious to dump a "substandard" GnR record out there and risk ruining the brand name of one of the most valuable acts on their roster.  I take it you aren't in business.  You would've burned a lot of bridges and you have an extremely shortsighted view of things

Oh... My... God...

You could argue that they mindfucked him and hurt his confidence in what they'd been working on, fueling the perfectionist fire.  They gave him money to record, the band made what Axl thought was an album good enough to release, they sent him back to work.  It's possible that such a rejection bruised his ego and/or made him totally rethink everything they'd done to that point.  I'm not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
There's no real adult response to that statement.

Slashsbaconpit is the only one of a slim few who has made a remote lick of sense in this thread.

Since 1999 people have come and gone saying what a great album CD was and that it was finished. That's what Josh Freese said, who got so frustrated wth Axl that HE LEFT the band. Ask Youth...

1999 - 2008 = 9 years

Yes, its totally plausible that Universal didn't want to put out a great record and demanded he use more money and spend (lets say for argument sake 2000 to 2004) 4 more years to finish a finished album.  :hihi:

Could they have asked him to go back some more during that time? Maybe, but we know of only one time, but we also heard from various sources that they wanted it FINISHED since at least 2003.


That's correct. And you could say he has said "fuck you" to them and he's paying for it. He had an obligation to finish the album within a reasonable timeframe, and he didn't do it.

Again, this whole argument is about people blaming Universal and not Axl for putting himself in this "mess."

If you think that the rejection of his vision of the album couldn't have caused him to second guess everything they'd done and caused delays then you don't know much.  For an example of another band with ties to GnR, Duff and Slash have both stated in print that Rick Rubin's continued requests that they write more material hurt their current band's morale and made them question if their stuff was any good (I personally think Rubin was on to something but that's another story).   They ended up parting ways with Rubin instead of heeding his advice.  Axl didn't have the option of parting ways with his record label.  They recorded an album sometime between 1998-2001 that Axl was satisfied with and turned in to the label.  It got rejected.  That is from the mouth of one of the only two sources that really matters in terms of getting the album out (two parties being Axl and the label).  Everything else is pure speculation, and you're stating innuendo's and unfounded rumors like they're facts

Exactly. Mr ID has no idea it would seem.
Still painting that house motherfucker?

I doubt any label would tell Axl to go back to work on this album......

With no news and no cd or tour in sight this band gets more disappointing and embarrassing by the day.  It has really become pathetic. 

OH NO ssssssssh don't speak of that stuff 'round these places!
 :rofl:

 I think at the end of all this it will be " Chinese Democracy : The Greatest CD that never was ". Didn't Axl say he'd inform us if stuff was happening?

I think I read a quote of Axl saying that he would let the fans know if the ball was rolling. I wonder why it's not though?

He is supposed to be a real perfectionist right? I guess that's what is holding the album up. Either that or they are considering going in the direction of Radiohead or something. I doubt that though.

I've heard this same speel since 2002, however, no one has ever sunk so low, or grasped that far for straws, to say the delay was the label's doing by giving him too much money and creative control to finish the album. That sure as hell wasn't said back then.

If it hurt him that badly as you suggest, why the fuck did he keep recording and touring, if his psyche and confidence was fractured that much? Have you heard the leaks from 1999? Are you going to tell me that the 2002 versions of the songs weren't better? Give me a break.

Everything is speculation, isn't it? I'm quoting "speculation" that ended up being confirmed, and quotes from people who worked on the project. I don't subscribe to the idea that only one source is being truthful, being Axl's word is golden, but I do give him benefit of the doubt. But you cannot deny that the predicament he is in is completely a result of his own doing. He did things his way, that's well reported, and he's paying for it.

And saying a producer telling a band during the writing process to write more songs, and a label, who according to you yourself, liked what they heard, telling an artist he could make it better, are two totally different things. You could also make a case that that pissed him off, and he was going to "show" them, if we're getting into speculation here.


Awww, baby made a post. Good boy. Now go stay behind the chainlength fence with the others like you're supposed to. And stop eating the paint!

... or the label doesn't want to release it right now in middle of a recession or Axl and the label can't agree on terms or mercury and uranus are not aligned in the correct equinox.  Who knows? 

Who said they gave him too much creative control?  Nobody has said anything resembling that.  If they rejected his initial vision of the album then he didn't have total creative control did he? 

Sure, the post-2000 demos are better than the 1999 versions of the same songs largely because of Buckethead's contributions.  So in that sense the label was right, they "could" have made the album better which they did on songs like IRS and TWAT.  The stuff should be better, Fortus and Bucket are much better players than Paul Huge was.  Nobody has suggested they gave him too much creative control.  What some people have suggested is that maybe the label created a monster by telling him to go back and rework the album or write new songs, which led to additional years of reworking, re-recording, writing new songs, all of which equals spending more money which they themselves put up.  You also don't know how many times the label has made additional suggestions about reworking or writing more songs.  For example in 2001 Axl said they thought they had the album and the record wanted them to work on it more.  Just because nobody has said anything about it publicly since then doesn't mean it hasn't happened again behind closed doors.  How do you know the same thing didn't happen in 2003?  You don't, nobody does except those close to the situation. 

I'm not sure which speculation you are saying turned out to be confirmed (by a credible source), but you have repeated ad nauseum that they were cut off by the label.  That has never been verified by a credible source.  It's been rumored that the label cut them off, and that Axl has funded the remainer of the album out of his pocket, but never confirmed by the label or the band.  Perhaps they cut him off because of the lawsuit spat, not because they'd given up on the album, and they worked things out.  People who worked on the album have credibility in many areas, but the only people whose opinions really mean anything in terms of an album release are Axl and the label executives.  Both sides have been very tightlipped about the whole thing aside from a handful of comments, most of them from many years ago.

Believe what you want. You know what I meant by creative "artistic" control which allowed him to bring in numerous producers and such. And according to documented proof by Axl, the only time they told him to go back was once. Anything else is speculation on your part, if I go by your logic. You are the one who's speculating on what happened behind closed doors. Not me. It was said several times that the label was tired of his bullshit, funding was cut, and I'm in no position to say that that's a lie.

If you want, believe whatever floats your boat. :beer:

For the record, I have said several times there is a good possibility that the label could be putting together a killer marketing plan, or figuring out how to market it properly. I have no idea why they're not releasing it. What I have been saying is that the idea that they somehow created a monster because Axl was unable to control himself and cared not for his obligations, is complete bullshit.

I know what you mean. This thing is supposed to have been out for a very long time now. Who really knows why it isn't? Here on the outside all we can do is speculate.

Many musicians have "creative artistic control" in terms of writing their own material.  That's the way it should be.  But, if the songs that the artist feels are appropriate for release are not allowed to be released, then they don't really have control.   And "documented proof" are you referring to that says they only told Axl to go back with the band and re-record only once?

The label didn't create a monster.  They fed it and let it get bigger and bigger.  I see an analogous situation with the steroids situation in Major League Baseball.  When Senator George Mitchell released his report, he layed blame on the players and the League.  The players for using and the League for not acting sooner to stop the problem from becoming so widespread and out of control.  I feel the label's role in the out of control funding and to some extent the delays in releasing the record is similar to the League in the baseball steroids situation.

Ali

Ask shotgunblues1978, he'll point you to it.


If it was truley a problem, then it was Axl's responsibility to seek treatment for this strange problem he apparently had. Or someone close to Axl should have told the label that Axl had this problem and couldn't handle anymore money, and to stop supporting him.

Just go away already.

We really don't need your "truths" here.

If you didn't fucking realize it already, you've missed the point of this site.



Now I see the same people pointing fingers and trying to be funny in two threads.

You don't like the situation? Fine. Move on.

None of you has ever managed to answer me the question regarding what all this does to your life? All the blaming and pointing fingers. Does it make you feel good?

Most of us know that the situation is like this and we can't do anything about it. If you don't think it's coming out, then leave.

You're the kind of people nobody wants at a party. Always trying to ruin the mood and bring everybody down with your "truths".





/jarmo

Jarmo, do you think Chinese Democracy is going to be released this year? Is it as close as we have been to it being released? Not being condesending, just asking for your personal thought on it.

Assuming it will eventually be released (and I don't think there's any way it won't...the question is how long), every day that passes we're "closer than ever to it being released".  It's just the nature of the passage of time. :)

Good point. But besides that, 2007 was the year when it was finished. Not "almost finished", not "nearly done" etc.

In my opinion, it would've been out already if it was just up to GN'R.

So obviously I think they'll get it out in 2008.



/jarmo

That's cool. I like seeing significant points still being made on this site rather than fanboy fodder. I know my last couple of post have been deleted because all I really said was "Awesome" or "Damn" etc.

Either way, just like most of you guys I want to see CD released this year, and though Jarmo's logic is simple... it's nice to see that there are still optimists among us. I am optimistic, but only because there's alot of money riding on it and it serves no purpose unless it's made avaliable to the consumer.

I know you all love analogies, so here's one:


Think of this as a big cruise ship. Occasionally the ship is out of its course, but in the end we know we'll get to the next destination.

While most of us know that we're off-course, we don't just fucking whine and whine about it. We know people in the crew are working on correcting it. Some of you are the opposite "oh no! We're not on course! Why can't we go to that place where all the other cruise ships go? Everybody else is going there! Look at that Bon Jovi cruise ship!".

Sometimes you hit bad weather, sometimes there's technical difficulties, sometimes you can't leave the port on time because the people working there have made an error, sometimes you have to sail through bad weather because the other alternative is worse etc.....

But some of you are happy pointing fingers at the ship's crew without knowing anything about what's going on.

I guess now one of you will say "the captain is responsible".  ::)


But if you're that unhappy, nobody is stopping you from disembarking the ship!

 : ok:




/jarmo

the number, '8' is always with GNR.  8)

This thread is about if GNR has finished the album. Yep too bad that the label is delaying it seems but
the completion is confirmed.

Why not offer words of cheer for the band?

I love Analogies so much, i thought i would post! For the first time in ages.

The real reason i am posting though is because i love Jarmo.  :love:

Like it or not, that's some funny shit (and a very appropriate analogy). However...

Technically, the captain is responcible for the ship and it's cargo, he also goes down with the ship. Being in the marine industry I will say that not all ships make it to port, but I have faith that this one will because the cargo is far too valuable.

Let it be known the Shipping Company is the Label, and the Captain would be an employee of the Label, Axl is the cargo owner... the cargo's fate is out of his hands, more than anything he just wants it to arrive safely.

Damn Jarmo, I'm impressed. That is a very well thought out analogy. I could continue typing because it actually works on many levels but I digress. Either way Kudos.

As we have seen in the past, people have tried to sink it.




/jarmo

Either that or someone will find CD at the bottom of the ocean in 100 years?   :-\

IF they had started to work on chinese democracy in 3000bc. remember Oh My CS's dog year.

ok.  not whining. but a bit scared. allowed to be if you`re thinkin about the titanic. the ship metaphor has first been mentioned by finck on his website, by the way.

axl's the captain, and the record company doesn't allow him to sail: hm, so the ship can't even sink right now. at least nobody's left so far out from the shore that he can't find his way back to his malibu home. sticking to the analogy: being afraid is something for the future, not the presence.

Sorry, think I've missed something... Dog Year?

I really have no idea what you are referring to in that last bit.  I'm not implying that Axl had any kind of mental or emotional issue complicating the release of this record.

Bottom line:  The label could have protected themselves and excised themselves from this out of control situation by cutting off funding sooner.  There is no way in hell it should have taken the $13 million barrier being crossed for them to realize that this situation was out of control.

Ali

Oh My Choking Soul's dog year
meaning: you've said my post count must have reached to 666 in the year 666(ad) .
A year for you must be like a month for us.  :D

what did robin say?

Sorry Jarmo I see where you are coming from but I don't completely buy this.

Normally a crew or passengers will be aware of not only the destination but also the course they are headed and an estimated time of arrival. When the ship goes off course, the captain will update the crew as to the exact nature of the problem, what needs to be done to resolve it and how it will affect the ETA. Its the same with good project management - you have a critical path and if it goes off course you replan and revise your completion date.

Whilst I agree that whining doesn't achieve anything, the lack of communication is generally what drives people insane. Before you refer 'recording is done' or to some bizarre comment made by the bands spokeswoman well thats fine but we still don't know what Axl's intentions are. Why is that so hard to share with people? I think that supporters of the band are probably a lot more understanding than some people think.

Why is it any of our business until he, and the band, want to tell us?

this robin said: "i trust you may understand. there will most certainly be a time to embrace this new ship. let's first allow it to launch from the pad in all it's glory. i look forward to such a time."

Sure.

But there was only one planned arrival date announced. So until there's another one, enjoy the scenery!




You don't know Axl's intentions?

I thought it's been pretty clear. Finish the album and release it as soon as possible.

Maybe it's just me....






/jarmo

wow thanks! I haven't seen it. In this case, the ship is the band/ the project innit?

the statement is about the record. you can find it on robins homepage, it's a message for the gnr fans (already some years old); it's under the faq section.

http://robinfinck.com/quest/faq/index.php

1. I didn't say it didn't cost money in development costs. That's what the $40 million was, not preproduction, DEVELOPMENT. Preproduction is when you build sets, get a cast, create a shooting schedule, hire a crew, sew costumes. It was still a stupid movie, and still had a lot more riding on it than CD does. Even though it was a substandard movie (I'm sure executives saw early screenings and were like "We spent $40 million in DEVELOPMENT and $209 million in PRODUCTION and we're going to spend another $100 million promoting THIS!?) , they still RELEASED it to make back the money they had spent, which with world wide box office they just barely did.

2. That's the dumbest thing I've heard. If that were the case, would TSI ever have been released? Look at Metallica. Their last album was shit, the record company still released it so they could move on to the next project. Hell, look at all the established, big name bands who have put out shitty albums. "The business" that you pointed out that I'm not in, is still a business. If you want to stay in business, you don't dump $13 million down a hole, and then when the ability to make some of it back comes along (I.E. the release of the album), you don't then sit on the hole it because the product doesn't tickle you in just the right way.

Unless the album is a complete and total disaster, I just don't buy the idea that the record company is going to sit on it. If the company has it, they are likely developing a promotional plan for it. If they are setting on it, they are too stupid to be in the positions they are in.

Guess what! GNR isn't going to have the sale performance it had 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. It doesn't matter how good the album is. The fans will buy it, the non fans will not. If it has a catchy single, it may get some cross over, but it's not going to be 1987-93 for GNR ever again. You know why the greatest hits album sold so well? It was a way for non-fans to get ahold of all the GNR songs they liked without purchasing all the albums. Non-fans don't care about Coma, Double Talking Jive or the alternate version of Don't Cry. They just want the songs they heard on the radio.

Manage expecations?
Public Relations?
Keeping the fanbase excited?

We all know there's a project called Chinese Democracy. The gauntlet was thrown down with the 'tentative' date. The band have mentioned it on numerous occasions and they have even played the songs live. Sebastian has ramped it up in the press, a lot of people have been left salivating at the prospect of new music. So its not as if the carrot hasn't been dangled.
 

Funny.

The fact that Sebastian has given us some info is now used against GN'R.

So if he hadn't said a thing, it would be the "no info" route.

Now that he has said a few things here and there, it's the "dangling the carrot" route.



How much shit would you be posting if there'd been an update last year saying they hoped to release the album soon?

It'd be "they promised it would be out soon and it's already January 2008!".....



Axl wrote a letter explaining the situation and it was turned against him. Yet you wonder why there's no updates?

Maybe they learned not to say anything until it's set in stone and completely finalized?



/jarmo

Haha, got it LOL. Sorry, I'm a little slow.

Also, I have no doubt that mums the word until they have some real news.

Record execs have a slightly different perspective.

They have a contract for a certain amount of material, measured in albums, from a band.

They weigh the worth of the material turned in vs the worth of the future material the band could produce when deciding to "accept", or sign off, on the albums release.

It doesn't HAVE to be a disaster for a label to pass on it.  It could just be deemed either unmarketable, unprofitable, or not as valuable as future material would be.  The situation with Fiona Apple is a great example.

I'm not saying that's what's happening, FYI.  But it's the perspective that execs use to judge the material....not, necessarily, how good or bad it is.  But how "worthwhile" it is, in terms of the contracted material.

Grr. I don't think the majority of people (me included) have posted that much 'shit' about this band. I haven't once personally attacked the band or anyone associated with them, I've attended and throroughly enjoyed the concerts, bought Tommy's album, bought the HTGTH T-Shirt and told my friends how much I like the new music.

The only thing I can see from a person that enjoys GNR immensely is there has been a lot of talk about new music but no official output. For a LONG time. So I don't really see why its so 'bad' to ask 'how are things going'?

Sorry, maybe I am being out of order here - and just so you know I really don't want to disprespect the rules of this board. But if I could ask a few other people just for my own sanity - am I really being out of order by asking for a little more info?


 

You mean like the band's potential?

If you're talking about being "uncommercial", I agree. But the album was great and it sold very well, even on iTunes back then, proving how Sony was wrong and how good the fans were when they camped with the "free Fiona" thing. Also, the album leaked way before its release, even tho the arrangements went slightly different, and that didn't stop the Extraordinary Machine to be a hit.

But I agree with what you said. IMO, Chinese Democracy may be too artistic to have the mass appeal the old tunes had, but songs like Better shows how they still can catch a lot people with pop-ish heavy songs. :)

 

More like "potential earnings".

Again, I'm not saying that's what's going on.  Only explaining what the thought process/evaluation process is at the labels executive level.

I can't see, if they pass on CD, that the potential for future earnings would outstrip that pass.  But you never know....

I'm actually talking about Apple's situation with Machine being a good example of the way record executives evaluate material.

The material was certainly not a "disaster".  The leaks showed that...for both Apple and the supposed material on CD.

But that didn't stop Sony from being unhappy with it (meaning Apple's material) and refusing to release it in that form.

I don't think Chinese Democracy will be too artistic to sell a lot of copies. I actually think it will sell very well. It just won't get the same amount of popular media coverage GNR's older albums got. The music world has changed since those days. Like, it's less about legendary icons now and more about grounded accessible bands. At least in rock.

I was talking about certain fans in general, not you personally.

My apologies if you felt targeted.




Wondering how things are going isn't bad in itself, it's just the bitching that comes with it that gets very boring in my opinion.


As I said, I personally still believe that as soon as the plans are finalized and things are sure to happen, we'll get news.




/jarmo

They'll buy chinese democracy too. You can't say the recent tour hasn't helped the GH sales.
Those casual fans are still talking about how electric the shows were. Chinese Democracy will win many new fans that are free from the past as well as bringing back the fans from 1987-93.
says a fan since chinese democracy. :headbanger:


 I wonder from who we hear about the release first. from the band or the label and how?

thanks. that reminds me.  Tommy referred to Axl as captain A.

I always enjoy reading the rumours, speculation and debates around here, but all of that aside, I don't think we will get any more official updates until the release date for the album is confirmed. We don't obviously know what exactly is going on with Axl and the record label, but we just have to assume/hope that the album is completely finished and, business issues aside, we might get it this year..

Ah, the great conspiracy. The only time info given out by Axl or Bach or anyone has been turned against the band is when after a long period of time expires and nothing happens. That's what is making fans mad. The short spurts of activity with vague info saying "It's almost here, it's basically done, it's almost time, I've heard the finished album and it's brilliant ..." and then nothing. It would be one thing if they always chose to be silent about it, but they don't. They preview at random night clubs, they tour under it's bannr, mention it in interviews, set tentative dates, then nothing.

That's why you see so many people frustrated. Axl said they were canceling the last part of their tour to finish up the album, now it's a year later and nothing has happened.
If it was nothing all the time, the criticism would go away. But we're always being teased.

Personally, IF the album really is done, I imagine the record company folks are likely developing the marketing material for it and promotion strategy for it, and not just sitting on it because it's not good enough or commercial enough.

Its funny how people say they don't updates us on things well if I remember right and correct me if im wrong when Axl wrote us the open letter he said the following...... 

For much of the time some form or another of legalities have been taking place that really the best way to deal with publicly was to keep our mouths shut in an attempt to ensure the best outcome and especially one that wouldn?t jeopardize the band or the album

A. BINGO !!!! that's why we don't hear anything



as well as contract negotiations need to be completed and barring any unforeseen complications these things have now been adequately scheduled. Both the band and I along with our record company feel that this record deserves the proper setup and promotion

A. I believe now that the record has been turned and my GUESS as we speak they are currently in negotations with regards as not to the contract but in proper setup and promotion.



It takes approximately 8 weeks for an album to hit the shelves once it has been turned in to the record company

A. those eight weeks probaly will happen this year and everyone will be excited.


So people its been a rough road but it should make you feel good that you support this band and for the non supporters who say THE ALBUM WILL NEVER COME OUT !!! you can say well I told you so.

How many times do we have to go through this? They finished the album!

He kept his word, you were not lied to about finishing the album. No matter how you twist it.

After the recording was done, several things didn't go as planned.

It's been evident for anybody who can read. It was even mentioned on gunsnroses.com last year!





That's where you are wrong.

Some of you are upset about being teased and others are upset because there's no updates.



How come many of us aren't personally insulted when Baz says there's multiple albums of material?

Personally I think that's just awesome! It proves that they haven't "just" been working on one album like some of you like to claim.


You, you're insulted because Baz is teasing you....





/jarmo

I guess some people are upset about there being no "official" news and other people are upset over the endless "teasing" that happens. But I don't know what is to be upset about? If there is no official statement to make then there is no official statement to make. And can you really blame people like Sebastian for mouthing off about the amazing GNR material that has been recorded? Gee, even if the teasing has been given a thumbs up from Axl himself, then at least we know he is keeping us hooked for a reason - Chinese Democracy is coming out! When? Who really knows? But it is.

Fair dinkum  : ok:

I just think its weird that for a band that is so desperately trying to release their 'debut' album, an album that could potentially be a make or break for them, they aren't using the fan base as well as they could to help their cause.

Oh, yippy skippy! The album is done. Or so we've heard from unconfirmed sources. For all the good it's done, great. The album is finished, yet no release date! Great!  And the record company apparently doesn't think it's good enough to release (have you heard what is passible for being released these days!? Ugh!) or they don't think it will make enough money with the state of the business today. That's just awesome. As long as GNR fulfilled their promise of finishing the album!

For the record, to me and a lot of other folks, a finished album is an album that is released. Not an album that Sebastian Bach said is done.

Do you think GNR is the only band that has things go wrong during recording? Unplanned stuff happens all the time for all kinds of bands, but they still manage to release albums.

I'm not trying to rag on GNR, but there are always vague excuses as to why they didn't make it to this or that show, or why the album isn't out, and why it's not their fault. I'd like to see the band for once nut-up, be men and say "This was completely our fault, we're sorry" about anything. Ever.  But it always someone else's fault, or some universe-spanning conspiracy, or usually just some vague allusions about legality or something.

Honestly, I'd just like to see the album on store shelves. I think the material we've heard is strong (honestly, some of the best lyrics Axl has ever written for ANY album!), I think the band is great, I want nothing but the best for them and I think if the album can get released, it's going to do nothing but help the legacy of GNR.  That's what I want. I want the legacy of GNR to be strong, and not the joke it's become among non-fans in recent years.

This is amusing. So when the news is good, you're pointing out that it's "unconfirmed sources".

When it's something negative, the source doesn't matter?  :hihi:


People who actually know something have said it. Sebastian Bach was on tour with GN'R in 2006 and 2007.

He's not some journalist who met Axl 18 years ago!




Yeah, for so long I read about how upsetting it was not to have any updates. Now you know it's done and you're still not happier?





Your try at humor isn't funny. It's just sad.

You're the one who basically implied that you were lied to regarding Axl canceling shows to finish the album.






I guess you love all the other bands as much as GN'R then?

Since they're all so alike.....




So that's it? You want to be able to point fingers.....

Would it make you feel better?



Regarding GN'R being a joke. Certain fans are helping in that department.

When non-fans read about GN'R fans protesting this and that, obviously that only strengthens their perception about GN'R being "a joke". One look at a GN'R "fan site" and you see people posting about how much it sucks to have no new album and how much it sucks that they didn't play this or that song live.

It's up to you to decide what side of the fence you're on.

I know which side I'm on. Always been.

I get attacked for it by people who'll be first in line saying "we knew you could do it, we always believed, we never doubted you!" once the album is out......




/jarmo

In fact, and correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that what would really make your day would be for Axl to apologise to you for running his life the way he wants to and not the way you think he should?  Because, in all honesty, I think a lot of the frustration shown by yourself and others of the same frame of mind, is due to a lack of understanding and/or acceptance of how Axl has always tried to remain true to himself and not compromise his art to satisfy the needs and desires of others.  Supporting a creative genius such as Axl isn't only about the good times, there are bound to be dark places to visit too, but the rewards when they come are all the more sweeter for this and I'm looking forward to that day with more hope now than I've had in many a long year during his struggle to re-build the band.

Excellent point.

People want to have things their way.

Whatever fits their needs.






/jarmo

I think a lot of GNR fans have to adopt to the bands needs - even when they're quite awkward - e.g. going on stage 2-3 hrs late - therefore it wouldn't harm GNR to give a little more. In my opinion it should be a two way relationship, give and take, otherwise GN'R might aswell exist only for their own satisfaction and not a commercial outfit.

We should all consider ourselves lucky, obsessed Nirvana fans will never get new music.

I dont think nirvana fans are the only obsessed ones !  ;)
We at least get somthing every year sinice 2004.  : ok:

Oh really?

Where do you think the media finds their stories?



I didn't blame all fans, I said "certain fans".


Same goes for the fans who rioted at shows. Are you saying those fans helped GN'R's image too?




They're responsible for their own actions.


You can't blame your parents for everything that's wrong with you. Just like you can't blame GN'R for everything.  ;)



/jarmo

It's cold I think GNR is to blame.
Cds don't sell nowadays guess that's GNR's fault. 
some GNR fans are so rude. The band is responsible for their behaver.

Is a rock band supposed to be almighty?


 

Thanks Andrew. That's all I'm saying. I think it's funny that you can't criticize GNR, even when the criticism is coming from the fact that you love the band and the new music and want to see it be successful, without Jarmo getting on your case about how we "can't blame GN'R for everything."

Hell on this board, you can't blame them for ANYthing. Not for canceling shows, not for missing shows, not for taking a decade to put out an album. If Axl forgot to wear pants to his next performance, it would be someone else's fault.

Didn't axl flat apologize for canceling four 2006 shows in his letter?
If I see anyone forgetting to wear pants, I will have more sense than to pick at it.

Does it make you feel better?




/jarmo

I'm confused.  Most negative articles written about GNR deal with the album delays, volatile tours, coming and going band members.  I don't recall a lot of stories that deal with negative vibes found on message boards.   I seriously doubt that GNR would be treated better from the media if only its fans weren't so negative.

I'm sure there are plenty editors out there that tell their staff to pass on the album costs and delays and focus on the 'loss of faith' permeating through GNR message boards.  ;)

Cheers,

Andrew

I understand.

Did you ever heard or read about a radio DJ repeating "exclusive news" that you had already read on a message board?






I didn't mean it that way.

Imagine that you're a journalist writing a story. You obviously know that negativity sells (when was the last time you saw a positive Britney related headline?).

So you browse some fan sites and see a lot of whining.

Do you think A: "Those people look happy, I must be wrong in writing this garbage" or B: "Look, even their fans think they suck!"?


Some time back a fan site shut down in protest of the "lack of updates". Normally a fan site shutting down doesn't really make the news on the Internet.

But in this case, they could tie it into their usual GN'R bashing, so it did.



Now you can call me paranoid and whatever else. But please prove me wrong.



When the fans have the same opinion as the "general public" about GN'R, what makes the fan different from average Joe?

This isn't personally aimed at you, but why should you be treated like a "real fan" when you're doing the same thing average Joe is doing? Bashing GN'R.

Just because you have all the cds that makes you special? But in reality you're being as supportive as the guy who hasn't any GN'R cds.....


Another example. Line up three people.

A: I love GN'R and support them no matter what
B: GN'R is a joke! They suck!
C: I went to see them, but they're a joke. Release the album!


Which one would you pick out to be the fan?


I guess it doesn't make sense either.....





/jarmo