Here Today... Gone To Hell!

does this mean it wont be out this year for xmas ?? :crying:

Sebastian Bach: I think there?s a lot of business shit that goes on with him. It?s just not as easy. It?s a little more complicated than people think.

They NEED to further explain the business thing that has gotten in the way the last 15 years.? I would love to know exactly what that is.

i think you can fairly say that. the question is: will we have it by x-mas 08? i hope so, but im gonna guess no. we will see...

If hewant the album out, then he should put it on the website for download...

Based on EVERY OTHER BAND that REALLY wants to put an album out, it is really not that difficult. If you want proof, walk into your local record store. The business goes something like this. write music and lyrics, record, submit to record co. or if you have the cash, do it yourself, market it and release it. WOW! so hard to do.

Based on EVERY OTHER BAND that REALLY wants to put an album out, it is really not that difficult. If you want proof, walk into your local record store. The business goes something like this. write music and lyrics, record, submit to record co. or if you have the cash, do it yourself, market it and release it. WOW! so hard to do.

If hewant the album out, then he should put it on the website for download...

You would think it's that easy, but it's not.

The record label probably wants every strong song on ONE CD to maximize everything. That way its kind of the greatest hits CD u never heard.

Please explain, because I don't know.

does this mean it wont be out this year for xmas ?? :crying:

Nothing is scheduled right now

I don't know exactly how it works in the USA because these rules and steps aren't the same on every country, but, let me try...

Yes, what you said is basically the bottom line. To release an album you have to write songs and lyrics, record them, submit to a record co and it's basically it.

But there's a lot of legal things that have to be done when the band is as big as Guns N' Roses.

When an album is edited, every song has it's register code, it's like It's ID. When this song is played on the radio, TV shows or something like that, it generates money. This money is collected by a performance rights organization, like ASCAP, that sends the money to the company that edited the album and for the musicians that are registered on that organization too.

The songs of the album will generate money. Every single one involved with the songs have their % of the profits those songs are gonna make. The musicians have to be registered on any performance rights organization, like ASCAP for example...but what if not every member of the band is registered on the same performance rights organization?

For example: Let's say that Robin Finck is registered on ASCAP, but all the other guys are registered on SESAC. I don't know, but maybe this can be a problem.

And I'm just pointing one legal problem regarding all the business involved on release a big record. I'm pretty sure that this is just the tip of the iceberg...

Nice synopsis Pinball Wizard.  I can only imagine how difficult getting all involved (it's apparently been a lot!) on board with the correct %'s, credit, etc.  It seems like an impossible task.  I would think lawyers have to be working behind the scenes like crazy.  My only question would have to be whether Bucket is represented by a hand-puppet lawyer or a lawyer with a hockey mask.   :hihi:

well... shit happens.
2008 release 100% confident.

Its like now or never ,but only gnr boards members are concerned about that cuz the regular people doesnt even know gnr still in the game.

any idea if it will be scheduled in time for a x-mas 2008 release?

I'm sure the intention is to release the new album as soon as possible.

As for now though, nothing is scheduled or planned.

Sebastian Bach: It?s just not as easy. It?s a little more complicated than people think.

'Well of course he did, don't be ridiculous.'

does this mean it wont be out this year for xmas ?  :crying:

Damn, looks like I lost another 10 euro bet to a friend of mine. The previous one was about whether CD will come out before March 2007. I guess I should start doubling the stakes, I'm bound to win eventually! ;D

I'm sure the intention is to release the new album as soon as possible.

As for now though, nothing is scheduled or planned.

Come to the Argentine :peace: :peace:

ya know when this happened last year i said well hopefully we'll see it in '07. So i guess now i'll just say hopefully we'll see it in '08 ::)


Mysteron:

not to be hasty or be an asshole but how would you know? what is your affiliation with the band these day? are you still in the loop?

:peace:

Mysteron:

not to be hasty or be an asshole but how would you know? what is your affiliation with the band these day? are you still in the loop?

:peace:

I don't know exactly how it works in the USA because these rules and steps aren't the same on every country, but, let me try...

Yes, what you said is basically the bottom line. To release an album you have to write songs and lyrics, record them, submit to a record co and it's basically it.

But there's a lot of legal things that have to be done when the band is as big as Guns N' Roses.

When an album is edited, every song has it's register code, it's like It's ID. When this song is played on the radio, TV shows or something like that, it generates money. This money is collected by a performance rights organization, like ASCAP, that sends the money to the company that edited the album and for the musicians that are registered on that organization too.

The songs of the album will generate money. Every single one involved with the songs have their % of the profits those songs are gonna make. The musicians have to be registered on any performance rights organization, like ASCAP for example...but what if not every member of the band is registered on the same performance rights organization?

For example: Let's say that Robin Finck is registered on ASCAP, but all the other guys are registered on SESAC. I don't know, but maybe this can be a problem.

And I'm just pointing one legal problem regarding all the business involved on release a big record. I'm pretty sure that this is just the tip of the iceberg...

I'm sure the intention is to release the new album as soon as possible.

As for now though, nothing is scheduled or planned.

It's a shame that Axl cancelled the end of the 2006 tour to put his 'finishing touches' on the album, since he could have taken all the time in the world to do that now and it didn't make the album come out any faster. The cancellations accomplished nothing other than upsetting the fans who wanted to see those California gigs. Oh well.

Yeah, doesn't really have an excuse for that one. Cancels shows to finish album yet announces more dates...and it's still not out. Sad thing is though, i'm not really that surprised...

One year ago, Axl promised to inform us. And now? Nothing :no:

How do I put this nicely for all the sensitive people....

He did finish the album when he said he was gonna finish it.

The tour was added after he had finished recording the album.

So instead of "just" trying to get the album out since January, they toured and worked on getting it out. I think that without the 2007 tour, this year would've been more frustrating.


It's always easy to point fingers afterwards when you know what happened. But in order to reach the tentative release date, the album had to be finished then.

You probably think the tentative release date was some kind of joke?

Obviously it didn't happen and we haven't heard of a new date since. It's not exactly hard to figure out that it could be because Axl isn't gonna announce a new date only to have it pass due to things that are out of his control.




/jarmo

...the 2007 tour was also great, they played songs that weren't played like in 15 years......

You wanna hear AXL ROSE? in STUDIO shape,? BUY Sebastian bach Angel down.? Yes that's right, he didn't lie when he said you'll hear music.......

Jarmo, I agree with what you're saying and it makes alot of sense.

But surely you have to agree that some sort of communication with the fans would prevent alot of the negativity from people on the boards, and dare I say, the media.

his affiliation with the band is the same as a year ago.. do you still think merck is mysteron :rofl:

2008 will be the year...it fits the pattern:

AFD- 87 (odd year)
Lies- 88 (even)
(UYI)- 91 (odd)
(TSI?)- 93 (odd)
(Live era) 99 (odd)

So it's about time for another even year release...right?

People didn't even understand the simple facts that the tentative release date was what the band was aiming for when Axl wrote the letter. In order to get the album out, he had to finish it. Hence the canceled shows in January. Now I see certain people saying the cancellations weren't needed....





/jarmo

Why not play the shows as scheduled and finish the album some other time? The cancellations didn't make the album come out any faster. He could have just worked on the album right now in December 2007 since nothing else is planned or scheduled (as Mysteron pointed out).

They could've done the early January concerts and booked the studio the very next week to finish the "minor additions" and the tentative release date for CD would have been March 13th or March 20th.  But.... you can't just waltz into a good recording studio these days without some advance warning.  It's more than likely that the studio was NOT available the "very next week" after the early January concerts which is why the concerts had to be cancelled. 

If you read Baz's recent interviews or saw the video clips on line, I believe the (or some of the) "minor additions" were in fact adding his vocals to the song "Sorry".  Baz had mentioned that Axl wanted him to be there "January 1st" and Axl was very adamant about Baz being there on time.  "you don't mess with the artistic process of Axl" Baz stated. 

So obviously Axl had the tentative date in mind and quite honestly he was trying to accomplish that.

Sorry, but your post makes not sense. It not that hard for Robin or anyone of the guys to go online and sign up to one of those organizations. Plus, its not like something as trivial as that would prevent a release.

I don't know, but maybe this can be a problem.

And I'm just pointing one legal problem regarding all the business involved on release a big record. I'm pretty sure that this is just the tip of the iceberg...

In a perfect world, yes.

Unfortunately this world is far from perfect.

Anything you say can, and most likely will be, used against you.

Need an example? The last tentative release date.


People didn't even understand the simple facts that the tentative release date was what the band was aiming for when Axl wrote the letter. In order to get the album out, he had to finish it. Hence the canceled shows in January. Now I see certain people saying the cancellations weren't needed....

Also another thing I remember reading in a mexico news article was Axl stating that he had a big suprise for GnR fans this year.  That right there tells ya that he wanted the album out like Baz stated but due to the business side it isn't.

Can we just offer up our support without a but or I think they should do?  Just right now when they need their fans behind them?

Personally I'm just over the whole thing.

If it comes out well and good, if it doesn't well whatever. 

Do you understand that when Axl said March 6th was a tentative release date, it meant that they had to finish it ASAP to get it out in March?


I mean, are you serious?





/jarmo

well i thought he was and if not my bad, but still, what is his affiliation with the band?

:peace:

and again Axl never said he'd tell us what happened. or promised he'd keep us informed.

If we are delayed for unseen reasons, you also will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date, and the album will be released as shortly thereafter as is possible. We thank you for your patience.

He says right there that if the deadline couldnt be reached they would inform us. DId he say "I promise to inform you"..no but he clearly states that he was going to let us know if the plans change.

If we are delayed for unseen reasons, you also will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date, and the album will be released as shortly thereafter as is possible. We thank you for your patience.

He says right there that if the deadline couldnt be reached they would inform us. DId he say "I promise to inform you"..no but he clearly states that he was going to let us know if the plans change.

Im sure Axl wanted the album out by the end of the year. He also wanted it out before the end of last year. Im sure Axl has always wanted this album out. But the fact is that its not out.

It just boggles my mind though that Axl, the company, and or his legal team havnt hammered out all the details over the past 7 yrs in regards to the release of this album.

The most amazing thing is, that if the album is already in the company's hand,

I don't know where this rumor started.....

Just because the record company is the obstacle, it doesn't mean they have it. Does it?





/jarmo

Just because the record company is the obstacle, it doesn't mean they have it. Does it?




/jarmo

This is where it started.   A question of interpretation:

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=49983.msg1012376#msg1012376

Why do you think, that the record company is the obstacle?

I think we will get the album Nov 2008, Axl will play the SUperbowl in 2009

So have all of these "why doesn't he just release it or tell us something" posts on this board throughout this year been misplaced?

It seems to me that there should be just as many or more posts on the Interscope(?) message board asking "what's  the holdup?" ;)

...do they even have a message board...? heh.

I will be a very happy man when I finally get to hear the whole story......the "what the hell has happened all these years???" story.

I hate when Pepole spell his name Axel haha

Peace

But he wanted it out in 2006 too! March 6th? Didn't happen... "if there are any delays, you will be notified."

But he wanted it out in 2006 too! March 6th? Didn't happen... "if there are any delays, you will be notified."

Here's the direct quote:? "If we are delayed for unseen reasons, you also will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date."? Now, if they don't have a new date, how the hell are they going to notify you in regard to a new date??

The statement didn't read, "If we are delayed for unseen reasons, we'll immediately tell you what they are."? So, a tentative date turned out to not be the actual date.?

CheapJules, btw, I'm not looking to forgive anybody for anything.? The albums will eventually be released.? I hold no grudge like some idiotic people out there who feel they are "owed something."? I just want to satisfy my curiosity.? I'd pay anything to hear the behind the scenes story of this band.? ?:peace:

I think we will get the album Nov 2008, Axl will play the SUperbowl in 2009

Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

Please be honest.


/jarmo

Nope. I don't see how that has bearing.

stuff like this is the reason the band doesnt communicate to the fans....they dont talk..we bitch....they talk...we bitch and tear apart Every little statement and every little word...

Imagine this the last few years the music world has lost its fans with garbage music that's today's music just check out Itunes top 10 songs.? Record industry is dying record stores are closing there's no good music..................................................... Then one morning you flip on MTV your in the kitchen making breakfast the Tv's going in the background then all of a sudden you hear the intro of Better you run to the TV its the video there back !!! you turn on the radio everyone is talking about it nobody can believe the music industry is saved all thanks to one band the only band big enough to change the face of music twice.? This is what I invison one day and that band will be none other than GUNS N ROSES !!!! :hihi:

if you look through out the history of music its always changing 60's the british invasion, 70's Rock Punk, 80's new wave glam rock metal ,90's alternative gangsta rap,2000 pop hip hop, 2008-on the return of Rock !!!! Baz said its a epic record I believe what he says.

Only problem with that is, MTV never plays music videos anymore.

Imagine this the last few years the music world has lost its fans with garbage music that's today's music just check out Itunes top 10 songs.  Record industry is dying record stores are closing there's no good music..................................................... Then one morning you flip on MTV your in the kitchen making breakfast the Tv's going in the background then all of a sudden you hear the intro of Better you run to the TV its the video there back !!! you turn on the radio everyone is talking about it nobody can believe the music industry is saved all thanks to one band the only band big enough to change the face of music twice.  This is what I invison one day and that band will be none other than GUNS N ROSES !!!!

Bottom line is - the CD isn't out because of Axl.

the only band big enough to change the face of music twice.  This is what I invison one day and that band will be none other than GUNS N ROSES !!!! :hihi:

if you look through out the history of music its always changing 60's the british invasion, 70's Rock Punk, 80's new wave glam rock metal ,90's alternative gangsta rap,2000 pop hip hop, 2008-on the return of Rock !!!! Baz said its a epic record I believe what he says.

Only problem with that is, MTV never plays music videos anymore.

And when they do, it's usually in the middle of the night, and it's allt he new pop/hip hop crap. :/

lets just hope for news, before the end of the year.. Things are really starting to get a bit laughable...

lets just hope for news, before the end of the year.. Things are really starting to get a bit laughable...

Despite what people have said, I really don't think the "absent original members" thing is really a bg deal.? GnR have already toured and made money since the incarnation of the new band, as well as releasing a single back in 1999.? If none of those things were stopped for legal reasons concerning the use of the name, why would an album be?

cause the album has approx 300+ musicians appearing on the album

Where do you get this number from?

300 musicians for ANY album is absolutely insane.

No where, its a guess,
but say 30 people each year for the last 10 years (since 97) that have been
session drummers/bassists/guitarists Whatever,

thats 300 peopl, I think thats a fair estimate,
even if its 100 , thats still alot,
which is why it is probably taken along while for cd to be released,
But this is nothin but speculation, and is probably as true as any other speculation on here,
as how can we know otherwise?

I always used to say "when Axl himself gives us a release date you can take it to the bank."? After that was proven wrong I find myself mostly out of philosophical anecdotes.

It's funny how much difference a year can make.  Last year at this time it seemed like everyone was interested and excited about the possible release of Chinese Democracy.  Now I'm starting not to care anymore and it seems a lot of other fans feel the same way.  Imagine what people who aren't "die hard" gnr fans think.  It all changed when Axl said (nearly 1 year ago) that it might come out March 6, but even if it didn't we'll let you know what's up.  One year later and nothing.  Not even an official statement from Axl.  Bravo, Bravo... I can take delays but not blatant lies or broken promises.  Either way,  the luster on this project is quickly vanishing for me...

There were two release dates, but I'm not sure if Axl himself told us those release dates... well, technically one, but I thought he said he hoped it would come out sometime soon (back when...) on VMA awards.

True that... :/ though I still have tiny bit of hope. :] I'm just not letting my guard down. XDD

at the 2006 vma's, he said it will be out before the end of the year (2006)...he was asked if it was coming out before the end of the year, he said , "yes."

at the 2006 vma's, he said it will be out before the end of the year (2006)...he was asked if it was coming out before the end of the year, he said , "yes."

http://www.mtv.com/overdrive/?id=1539535&vid=104872

When I agreed to do our recent North American tour, I did it with the understanding that my manager, Merck Mercuriadis, and I were in full agreement regarding our strategy and touring plans and, most important, that any and all things needed to release the album by Dec. 26 at the latest were in place. Unfortunately, it turned out that this was not the case, and I regret to say that the album will not be released by the end of the year.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1744




/jarmo

of course, we all know that. just saying axl, not his manager, said it was coming out before 2006. just play that link on the previous post....who is in charge? axl or his manager? im gonna say axl.

What part didn't you understand?  ???

Knowing what he knew in August, he thought they could get it out before December 26th. Then later on, he learned it wasn't gonna happen.


Your username is pretty ironic....



/jarmo

What part didn't you understand?? ???

Knowing what he knew in August, he thought they could get it out before December 26th. Then later on, he learned it wasn't gonna happen.




/jarmo

cmon its never Axls fault!

What part didn't you understand?? ???

Knowing what he knew in August, he thought they could get it out before December 26th. Then later on, he learned it wasn't gonna happen.


Your username is pretty ironic....



/jarmo

i think we all understand it . its pretty clear.

we heard the statement at the vma's. we read his letter and merck's reply (well, some of us, that wasnt allowed here). its like the boy who cried wolf. how much can we believe if we are always getting statements, then other statements, and ultimately nothing happens...well, that's up to the individual. im just pointing out what was said, period...

oh, and one other point. remember how jarmo said they had to cancel those shows in january 2007 because they needed to do some more recording and finish the cd? well, that makes no sense. axl says its coming out by the end of 2006, so the album had to be done. he coudnt just say it would be out by then in september 2006, without it being done. it takes 2-3 months to set up the release...so, this doesnt make much sense...i know the people who had tickets for those shows were very upset. they couldnt wait 1 more week and then do what they had to do with the record?

or maybe they didnt have to do anything...

its not ironic at all. you dont know me, bro. you have no clue. you always use that line when i post something that does not jive with your opinion.

/ibelieveinaxl

haha,you are funny jarmo :D,these people dont get it,i got what your saying,lol.  one thing though,will you drop quotes next year at this time again like last year and the year before etc,,,

Cutting through all the crap,  The problem is he said it would "probably" be out March 6 or shortly after.  If not he said he would communicate with the fans what was going on.  9 months later and we haven't heard jack shit.  How is this not a problem?? It's the first time Axl has said anything about it in a written statement and it hasn't been done.  That's what pissed me off. 

It pisses you off?

Wow.

I'm more like the opposite. Once the album comes out I'll be really excited and glad that it's out.

But in the mean time, it not being out yet doesn't affect me in the other way.....




/jarmo

Axl has never given us a firm release date.

Just put your disappointment down to your own lack of understanding of what "tentative" means. 

And down to your own lack of knowledge regarding the issues, apparently.

"It'll definitely be out this year (2006)" is not "tentative", my fairweather friend.? Axl followed up with an explanation why it wasn't coming out in '06 later in the year, with a tentative release date of March 6, 2007 followed by assuring the fans that "If we are delayed for unseen reasons, you also will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date, and the album will be released as shortly thereafter as is possible."? The date is now 12/5/2007.? Yet another year is about to end with no word on anything (I don't consider the "update" from Del James to be official, unless he's in the band now).

I am beyond "disappointment."? I think all of us die-hards are.? I'll continue to be a fan and support the band if I ever get the chance i.e. a new album to buy or a concert relatively close to my hometown I can travel to.? But until then, there are more pressing issues in my life.

I don't consider the "update" from Del James to be official, unless he's in the band now

You read--lol--most of us just skipped over it.

In an effort to counteract all of the negativity and childlike ignorance, I will hopefully shed some light on the managerial and marketing process in hopes that it will provide some clarity into your dark, clouded prepubescent minds. And since I doubt that any of you monkeys actually understand the labor involved with releasing an album, I'll try my best to cover the basics.

I nominate that post.^Ffor most long winded post while trying to make ones self look more important then others.

Nope, pretty simple: I'm tired of all the bitching and complaining.

So you complain about the complaining . How great .....

I don't know if this has been said yet, but IF AXL WANTED IT OUT THIS YEAR-IT WOULD BE OUT!!!

Either that or there is no Chinese Democracy because democracy doens't exist in China. lol... or this is the biggest prank in rock history and we've all been punk'd.

In an effort to counteract all of the negativity and childlike ignorance, I will hopefully shed some light on the managerial and marketing process in hopes that it will provide some clarity into your dark, clouded prepubescent minds. And since I doubt that any of you monkeys actually understand the labor involved with releasing an album, I'll try my best to cover the basics. And if you're in need of proper credentials, I've worked as an intern at Jackson National Life (management consulting) and a Marketing Manager at high level management company for some time. And as a disclaimer, I'm not claiming to be in the know, rather explain in business terms the difficulty of releasing Chinese Democracy.

Firstly, Marketing would best be described as: 'The process of planning and executing the conception, pricing, promotion and distributions of goods or services (in this case, good; ala, Chinese Democracy) to facilitate exchanges that satisfy individual and organizational objectives.' It's business 101, look it up.

Now that "Marketing" has been properly defined, in stark contrast with the "release the album, do a video" idea suggested by the fanbase. So you see, Marketing is a much more complex task than doing something that satiates the fanbase, if that were the case, the album would come out next week. Look at recent 'superhero' movies; Spiderman, X-Men, etc., most of those movies have a base in the source material, however very rarely do they stick solely to the books. Why? Because the comic book market is a niche. It's a very small piece of a very large pie. Guns N' Roses would have remained a poorly selling cult favorite if weren't for songs like 'Sweet Child O' Mine'. Making movies is much like making records, it's a very difficult, refined process that takes a lot of work, but in the end the goal is to make it seem like a beautiful and effortless presentation of story and art.

A release as huge as "Chinese Democracy" deserves proper attention. Think about what Axl and the band are trying to accomplish. Not only does "Chinese Democracy" serve as an reinvention of a huge brand name like Guns N' Roses, but also it's marketing Guns N' Roses to an entirely new demographic. The people on these forums are an easy sell, some loyal fans who have stuck with the band through it all, but an aging fanbase isn't going to make "Chinese Democracy" a success. There are the 'individual objectives' of the Axl and the band, the labor of updating, reinventing, and refining the GNR sound all the while satisfying the fanbase and attracting new fans. Then there's the "organizational, corporate" objectives of dollars and cents, making a return on their huge investment and not simply releasing an album because of all the history involved of making it.

Then there's the issue of promotion. Promotion, or 'All the techniques that sellers use to motivate people to buy their product and? an effort by marketers to inform and remind people in the target market about products and persuade them to participate in an exchange.' Obviously, it's a very difficult thing to market a huge name like GNR not even mentioning all the expectations that are riding on the album by those involved, the fanbase, and critics alike.

This may seem long winded or too brief to some, however I encourage you to take these ideas into account and reread Axl's letter except this time without your ideas of what the band should do. Because honestly, you have no idea. In regard to the effort of creation: writing, recording, mixing mastering, or the effort of production: marketing, promotion, pricing, distributing, most of you are in the dark. Not one f'n idea. Just because you know a lot about the history of the band doesn't mean you know what goes on or has gone on during the conception through completion of "Chinese Democracy".

That may sound condescending or presumptuous, but I'm just like everyone else, I love the band, I want to hear new music, I'm a fan. But the real sin would not letting the album be released properly? after all the "behind-the-scenes triumphs and casualties" as Axl calls them and having the presentation of such a powerful album by a very talented group of musicians be ruined. So however long things take, I'm willing to wait.

Just some thoughts.

>Bucketfoot.

Thankyou oh great one. i feel touched by the hand of a genious...!

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

In an effort to counteract all of the negativity and childlike ignorance, I will hopefully shed some light on the managerial and marketing process in hopes that it will provide some clarity into your dark, clouded prepubescent minds. And since I doubt that any of you monkeys actually understand the labor involved with releasing an album, I'll try my best to cover the basics. And if you're in need of proper credentials, I've worked as an intern at Jackson National Life (management consulting) and a Marketing Manager at high level management company for some time. And as a disclaimer, I'm not claiming to be in the know, rather explain in business terms the difficulty of releasing Chinese Democracy.

Firstly, Marketing would best be described as: 'The process of planning and executing the conception, pricing, promotion and distributions of goods or services (in this case, good; ala, Chinese Democracy) to facilitate exchanges that satisfy individual and organizational objectives.' It's business 101, look it up.

Now that "Marketing" has been properly defined, in stark contrast with the "release the album, do a video" idea suggested by the fanbase. So you see, Marketing is a much more complex task than doing something that satiates the fanbase, if that were the case, the album would come out next week. Look at recent 'superhero' movies; Spiderman, X-Men, etc., most of those movies have a base in the source material, however very rarely do they stick solely to the books. Why? Because the comic book market is a niche. It's a very small piece of a very large pie. Guns N' Roses would have remained a poorly selling cult favorite if weren't for songs like 'Sweet Child O' Mine'. Making movies is much like making records, it's a very difficult, refined process that takes a lot of work, but in the end the goal is to make it seem like a beautiful and effortless presentation of story and art.

A release as huge as "Chinese Democracy" deserves proper attention. Think about what Axl and the band are trying to accomplish. Not only does "Chinese Democracy" serve as an reinvention of a huge brand name like Guns N' Roses, but also it's marketing Guns N' Roses to an entirely new demographic. The people on these forums are an easy sell, some loyal fans who have stuck with the band through it all, but an aging fanbase isn't going to make "Chinese Democracy" a success. There are the 'individual objectives' of the Axl and the band, the labor of updating, reinventing, and refining the GNR sound all the while satisfying the fanbase and attracting new fans. Then there's the "organizational, corporate" objectives of dollars and cents, making a return on their huge investment and not simply releasing an album because of all the history involved of making it.

Then there's the issue of promotion. Promotion, or 'All the techniques that sellers use to motivate people to buy their product and? an effort by marketers to inform and remind people in the target market about products and persuade them to participate in an exchange.' Obviously, it's a very difficult thing to market a huge name like GNR not even mentioning all the expectations that are riding on the album by those involved, the fanbase, and critics alike.

This may seem long winded or too brief to some, however I encourage you to take these ideas into account and reread Axl's letter except this time without your ideas of what the band should do. Because honestly, you have no idea. In regard to the effort of creation: writing, recording, mixing mastering, or the effort of production: marketing, promotion, pricing, distributing, most of you are in the dark. Not one f'n idea. Just because you know a lot about the history of the band doesn't mean you know what goes on or has gone on during the conception through completion of "Chinese Democracy".

That may sound condescending or presumptuous, but I'm just like everyone else, I love the band, I want to hear new music, I'm a fan. But the real sin would not letting the album be released properly? after all the "behind-the-scenes triumphs and casualties" as Axl calls them and having the presentation of such a powerful album by a very talented group of musicians be ruined. So however long things take, I'm willing to wait.

Just some thoughts.

>Bucketfoot.

Yep, my betting is that we're gonna get another 'Open Letter From Axl Rose' like we did last christmas where he'll give us a load of old pony about how he tried his best, it wasn't his fault e.t.c, and then he'll set another 'Tentative' release date just so we can shut up and leave him alone for a few months

Mr. Rose, on behalf of us all, i say to you:                         :rant:

I enjoyed the "lesson" from Mr Bucketfoot.? That was classic.? But isn't 10 years long enough to do all of those things?? Plus it's been a few years now since we were told the album was just about done and coming out soon.

I'm sorry, but IMO this is 100% Axl Rose and his own issues about releasing music.? It just can't be all about business at this point.? Nothing takes 10 years.? ?

Hell, Def Leppard had a drummer lose an arm and a studio burn down (with the master tapes) when they were making Hysteria, and it still was out in about 4 years after Pyromania.

I completely agree what someone else said - if Axl wanted this CD out, it would be out next week.

I enjoyed the "lesson" from Mr Bucketfoot.  That was classic.  But isn't 10 years long enough to do all of those things? 

I completely agree what someone else said - if Axl wanted this CD out, it would be out next week.

I can't wait to see the reaction on this board when Chinese Democracy comes out...I wonder if people will still remember the years of waiting and "agony" created or will it all be forgotten now that we have it in our hands?

Mr Bucketfoot courted flack by having a "smarter than thou", patronising attitude, while stating the bleeding obvious. What many are saying is ENOGH! enough time has passed to render almost any excuse laughable.


Or "ENOUGH" even  :hihi:

I don't understand all this shit thrown at Mr Bucketfoot.

Not everyone, the ones who thinks its all easy and has no clue about the business surrounding such a big (monetary and personal) investment. But yeah, that was rude, I guess I skipped that... Still, he made a lot of other points. Valid points about an album release.

but no points taht we dont already know. and, he says that knowing the history of the album isnt enough, but actually it is, especially when combined with his rather obvious points about how the industry works.

i would itemise all his condescending lines, but i cant be bothered.

^^ Yeah, because Axl never had problems with the record company before and would willing to give the album some half-assed promotion or whatever just to have it released ASAP, huh? ::)

Again, tell that to the people who thinks Axl didn't want to release the album.

im not sure we understand eachother. i am one of those people. i think hes trrified of releasing it. if anyone wants to try and argue that he has really been keen to get it out this lat several years, and that he hasnt done anything to jeoardise its release, its all the record labels/lawyers faults, theyre wasting their breath im afraid.

Then why during the North American Tour we heard: Better, IRS, Madagascar, The Blues, Chinese Democracy ?

hysteria, in its day, wa by no means a half-assed album, it was HUGE, and that band overcame all their problems..... a drummer with one arm is a bigger problem than the excuses we've heard round here for the delay.

End of the day i just want to hear new music from my fave band, and i think i will do, i just don't understand/ comprehend how that can take so long even after listening to the reasons suggested.

They NEED to further explain the business thing that has gotten in the way the last 15 years.? I would love to know exactly what that is.

you made the same post 4 times and can't even quote it correctly... and bucketfoot is the idiot?

People, I think you are all taking this far too seriously.? Yes, I want to hear the record too; but remember that Chinse Democracy is just an album, and however kickass GnR may be they are just a band.? Live your lives and if you really want some kickass music then either write it yourself or listen to Wintersun or somebody else.? Hell, listen to AFD, that's a good album.

If it comes it, it comes out; if it doesn't, it doesn't.? Remember that its just an album, no matter how long you've been waiting for it.? There's more than enough other albums to listen to in the meantime.

If you had read my post properly, you would have noticed the last sentence which talked about condescension and one of the first sentences which talked about me trying to provide insight to people who think things are as simple as "putting the album out" and rebuking the individuals behaving childishly without end, rhyme or reason as they say.

it's not really important to me, whoever's fault it is that cd is not out yet. i'm just sad it has not been released yet.

People, I think you are all taking this far too seriously.? Yes, I want to hear the record too; but remember that Chinse Democracy is just an album, and however kickass GnR may be they are just a band.? Live your lives and if you really want some kickass music then either write it yourself or listen to Wintersun or somebody else.? Hell, listen to AFD, that's a good album.

If it comes it, it comes out; if it doesn't, it doesn't.? Remember that its just an album, no matter how long you've been waiting for it.? There's more than enough other albums to listen to in the meantime.

Maybe that explains why you don't get your beloved regular updates about who ate what and when......



/jarmo

I havn't a clue what you are going on about my friend!

I havn't a clue what you are going on about my friend!

Do you understand how ridiculous that is?


This all seems to come down to one thing. Some of you feel like you're owed this album. Get over that. It's not your decision to dictate when others should release their art/work or even how.


Here we have a bunch of "fans" who still think the band they're supposed to be fans of don't want to release music. Amazing.




/jarmo

Why do you keep comparing GN'R to other bands? They're not like other bands.

If they were, things would be pretty boring.....


I don't know the details of why it's not out at this moment, but I tend to think that Baz knows what he's talking about. He's not some guy who met Axl in 1990 and has used that ever since to make himself some money.


This is "not just another album". If you went through all this to get it right and finished, wouldn't you want to make sure its release does it justice?

I think the album deserves it.





/jarmo

You know, it's funny.

I've stayed out of the GnR "discussion" of late because not much has happened.

So today, having some "slow" time to work through, I decided to peruse some of the threads.

And then I had to look at the calender...because it sure feels like it's December of 2003 again.

Same discussions , same dissatisfaction from "fans" who sound an awful lot like some of the same "fans" in 2003, 2004, 2005, late 2006...ad infinitum.

It is what it is.? No amount of whining, complaining, bitching, moaning or screaming is going to change things.? The album isn't out.? It may be out "soon". It may be out 10 years after Axl kicks the bucket when the label gets access to the vault.? In either case...nothing anybody on this board says is going to change it.

It's an album.? Even if it is the greatest album of all time, it will still be JUST an album.? So what use is there is BITCHING about the what's, who's, and why's of the reasoning behind it being delayed in it's delivery to the public?? 'Cause I can't see a one.

Unless some of you are under the impression Axl gives a flying fuck what you think/want/believe in all this.? His goal is to, ultimately, release the album on his terms, in the best light/way possible.? If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.

HOW/WHEN/WHERE he decides to do that isn't even in the realm of capability for any of us to make.? Why? Because we have no earthly fucking clue what's really going on.? You can speculate, you can ponder, you can suppose, but the reality is this: You don't fucking know. Period. End of story.? You have not walked the mile in the man's moccasins. You have not, for example, dealt with a 10th of the bureaucratic? bullshit that goes along with dealing with a major record label.? You haven't, for example,? tried to convince someone to spend millions of dollars on a project you KNOW would be successful, if only they'd invest in "proper promotion".? You haven't, for example, gone back and forth with lawyers over 3 tiny words that completely chance the intent or execution of the clause of a contract (witness Greatest Hits, for example).? All things that occur every day in the recording industry.? All things that need to be dealt with.? You can poo-poo them if you like, simply because they don't fit into your "preconception" of what SHOULD be, but please don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do.

I have no issue with people commiserating about the delay.? I have no problem with people being disappointed.? I expect it, and, hey, at the end of the day I'm right there with you.? But the bitching "at Axl" about it?? About the reasoning behind it? About placing "blame"? Not so much.? Because, in the grand scheme of things, IT'S AN ALBUM.? It's not civil war.? It's not global catastrophe.? It doesn't impact your ability to make a living, feed your family, or find happiness in the world (or, rather, it SHOULDN'T!)

 It's artistic expression from a group of individuals, led by a particular individual.? Their art, their reasons, their schedule.

audio can still be ripped from dvd's. i know cuz i do that. i rip the live dvd's so i can hear em in my car.

the mp3 theory is good... but not true. if that was the case... then no cd's would be released now.

they don't expect for CD to sell 20million copies... it ain't gonna happen. not now not ever... that time has come and gone my friend. their ultimate goal is to recoup as much as much as they can that they've lost.

Why do you keep comparing GN'R to other bands? They're not like other bands.

If they were, things would be pretty boring.....


I don't know the details of why it's not out at this moment, but I tend to think that Baz knows what he's talking about. He's not some guy who met Axl in 1990 and has used that ever since to make himself some money.


This is "not just another album". If you went through all this to get it right and finished, wouldn't you want to make sure its release does it justice?

I think the album deserves it.





/jarmo

And.. get sued?

WAIT FOR CD IS BORING, for God's sake. You as an admin must be bored, just look at the front page of this forum.

For fucks sake stop the bitching already! The album will come out when it's ready to come out and not before, until then focus on something else. It's not actually hurting you that it isn't out yet so stop.

thanks YOU!!! thats what im saying...? :peace:

From the Rope:

Music industry layoffs on the horizon
Dec 3, 2007, 10:29 PM | by Shirley Halperin
Categories: Music Biz

There's industry talk of a "Black Monday" on the horizon at several major record labels, including SonyBMG and Island DefJam, as reported by Digital Music News. Now, we've learned, Geffen might also see the ax come down this week. According to several insiders, as much as 80 percent of the staff may lose their jobs as part of a massive restructuring at Interscope/Geffen/A&M. The label would ostensibly be folded into market-share behemoth, Interscope ? home to Gwen Stefani, Fergie, Sheryl Crow, and U2 ? headed by Jimmy Iovine. It's unclear what that would mean for artists like Ashlee Simpson and Mary J. Blige, who has a new album coming out on Dec. 14. Or for label president Ron Fair, the mastermind behind recent successes like the Pussycat Dolls. All, we suspect, will have a future at Interscope. (Representatives of the label declined to comment.) Elsewhere in the Universal Music Group, Island DefJam executive VP of promotion Greg Thompson left the company, it was announced on Friday, sparking chatter about a wider executive exodus.

As for SonyBMG, Digital Music News reports Columbia, headed by Rick Rubin and Steve Barnett, will bear the brunt of a cut, but our sources say Epic's future may be on the line as well. Or at least the Epic we've come to know, which has had recent successes by the likes of Sean Kingston and Good Charlotte. "It's just tumbleweeds [at the Santa Monica offices]," says an insider who works out of the Sony building. "At 3 in the afternoon, the lights aren't even on." Adds another: "It's the culture of an ever-shrinking business, which feels a lot of things are outsourceable." Still, a senior Epic executive contends the label has already seen its major cuts go down "when no one was looking" and adds, "in six months to a year, who knows what will happen, but for now, Epic is a lean and mean frontline label that's already a small, tight machine where the business plan functions." On the formerly-known-as BMG side, Arista artists have already been divvied between Jive (urban acts like Usher and Pink) and RCA (pop acts including Avril Lavigne, Christina Aguilera, and Chris Daughtry), but we hear RCA may also see some significant changes. (Reps for Columbia and Epic declined to comment.) At least J Records can rest easy: Clive and Co. have a platinum seller in Alicia Keys, with Whitney Houston on the way.

I heard you make a guest appearance on one of the tracks on Chinese Democracy as well.


Yes, I sang a song on Chinese Democracy called "Sorry," and sorry I don't know when it's coming out! It's sort of like John Lennon was asking me to sing on The Beatles' record. When that comes out, people are going to freak out that we finally have a new Guns' album. There I am on it!

not telling anyone to run their site in any way.. but there really should be only one Baz talking about axl thread IMO.. I just found this and don't know if it has been posted and don't feel the need to start a new thread about it anyway here's from ultimate guitar:

I'm sorry, that was uncalled for.? I had been some where else.

Let me explain what I think is going on.? When you take a company out of business or reorgainize it, there a certain tax advantages and you can get rid of debt or delay it.? I'm not Donald Trump but if I was Geffen and knew I was going down I'd save the GNR cd and the money I thought it would bring in for the next company or restructed company.

Just my thoughts.? I could be way off.

Meaning? :)

could be meaning that the other 2-3 albums after cd might be very difficult to release in future compared to today... :hihi:

Jesus christ people , can we just concentrate on getting the first album released ?

why should be concentrate on that? we can't do antything about it, i'm concentrating on enjoying my life instead :D

So baz confirms that he is now going to be on chinese democracy?

Wow,
 Baz is one lucky man,
getting to be a guest on the most expensive biggest rock album of all time,
This man has won the lottery 5 x over...

Gotta love Baz's P-R skills : ok:

The record industry in 5-10 years time is going to be very different

Those who adapt early and with good foresight will prosper. Those who wait will fade away

It'll be interesting to watch

Haven't we know that Baz is gonna be on "Sorry" for like a year now?

What business and/or legal stuff coul be in the way ?

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but if CD isn't really in '08 I'll be terribly dissappointed.? Now that the record is done the record company, axl and management need to come together and compromise and make it happen.? I beg of you!?

What ? Mysteron said it was.

like mysteron knows shit ....
i wish the dude does but i think he is as much a insider like you and me 

No one's really sure what the deal is with him. I don't think anything solid has ever been posted.

well... shit happens.
2008 release 100% confident.

Its like now or never ,but only gnr boards members are concerned about that cuz the regular people doesnt even know gnr still in the game.

No one's really sure what the deal is with him. I don't think anything solid has ever been posted.

Plenty of "solid stuff".  Including news on a tour (before it broke) and a myriad of other tidbits.

And jarmo trusts him, and, I think, has verified his "connections" to the band.

If there's one person, on ANY of the GnR boards you can trust it's Mysteron.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care who trusts him and I don't care what his "connections" are. I just don't honestly believe myself that anything solid has come out of his posts.

I'm not trying to be negative so I hope you don't take it that way. I don't mean to run the guy down either, I'm just sharing my thoughts.

How about the pre-sales in 2006?



/jarmo

How about the pre-sales in 2006?



/jarmo

This is "not just another album". If you went through all this to get it right and finished, wouldn't you want to make sure its release does it justice?

I think the album deserves it.
/jarmo

Actually, didn't Axl say that it IS just another album?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care who trusts him and I don't care what his "connections" are. I just don't honestly believe myself that anything solid has come out of his posts.

I'm not trying to be negative so I hope you don't take it that way. I don't mean to run the guy down either, I'm just sharing my thoughts.

You can believe what you want.

But reviewing his posts pretty much gives the clearest picture on the issue.  And that's the FACT there's been lots of "solid stuff". GH, tours, presales....it's a pretty extensive list.

You can ignore it, or choose not to believe it, as you see fit, of course.  But let's not mislead the rest of the posters on the board, unless we're sure.....OK?  Just a suggestion......

The rest of the posters on the board could review those same messages and draw their own conclusion. I said nothing misleading, I shared my thoughts on the subject.

Actually, didn't Axl say that it IS just another album?

That's why I'm not an expert on the subject. I don't know what he's had to do with and what he didn't. 

(http://www.Smiley-Town.de/smiley.php?bild=RXJzdGF1bnQvMDA4LmdpZg==) (http://www.Smiley-Town.de)

I think Axl (and others) wanted CD out also in 2006, why else would he have made those cryptic "late, late fall"-speeches ? It's almost impossible to think that an actual finished compact goddamn disc could see the day of light in 2008 or any other year.

BUT, who could have believed in december 2005 that we would see a few months later Guns N Roses performing around the globe... So when it happens, it happens pretty fast, 8 weeks promotion etc. etc. and Then It Is Reality.

Merry Christmas, believers !? : ok:

Haha, true that. And atleast we got some swell people like Mysteron to warn us about pre-orders and all that jazz. Thanks again for that heads up, my May was made because of that!  :peace:

I think Axl (and others) wanted CD out also in 2006, why else would he have made those cryptic "late, late fall"-speeches ? It's almost impossible to think that an actual finished compact goddamn disc could see the day of light in 2008 or any other year.

What do you mean there?? Mysteron warning us about pre-orders?

It's not that odd that a record company has faith for a man who has been part of a band that has sold tens of millions records. Axl hasn't sang his swan song yet...