Here Today... Gone To Hell!

First of all, I apologize for my bad english, it is not my first language.

I don?t take myself or my words any more seriously than any other fan, but I do hope sharing these thoughts here can help and lead to an actual and useful discussion among the fans, aside from the only two options currently available: complaints and asskissing, both leading nowhere. Please read the whole text before you respond on only parts of it. I am very intrested in your opinion and I will respect, but first I have to ask for a bit of your attention. Thank you.

Back in the early 90?s, Slash was the one who did most interviews. Axl spoke with the media every once in a while, but when he did, it was usually of a lot more subtance than a normal interview with a normal rock singer. I don?t know Axl, but from the picture he paints of himself in public, to me it seems he prefers an actual conversation over a brief chit-chat. I think he just wants to be understood and get his points across, rather having one big interview every five years than 100 small chats every five minutes. I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.

Today, the actual communication (in sense of interaction) between the band and the fans takes place in personal chats or e-mails. Actual interviews are rare, but you can ask / write to Bumblefoot and Richard and though they do not answer everything (maybe not so much because of confidential agreements, but maybe because they do not want to raise hopes too high or give false promises) they really try and do their best to not let the fans stand alone in the dark with nothing but speculation.

I ask you: Who else does that? Did Slash do that? Buckethead? No. You could get an autograph, but that was that. With ?the new guys? you can actually communicate personally. So what do you prefer? An autograph FOR you? Or personal communication, someone taking not only time but actual thought and effort to communicate WITH you?

From most artists you just get useless chit-chat nonsense, blatant promotion, yellow press party crap or third hand information (at best) that is selected and provided by the mass media. With GN?R today, you don?t have to buy a magazine (no info there or just bullshit), you can directly ask members of the band. I ask you: What other band that plays in front of 30.000+ audiences provides such an opportunity? Why do you criticise this band for not communicating with their fans? Please explain.

In reality they do communicate more than any other comparable artist. They just don?t use the mass media to communicate. And I do mean actual communication, not the usual ?here?s your autograph, I had tea for breakfast and don?t forget to buy my CD? chat. You know what I mean. Don?t you see the difference?

I don?t understand why people whine about broken promises and the band owing them something. Please explain. The only time I was actually spending money on this current band, I got a great concert in return. All the new music came over the net as leaks for free. Do you hear them whining? Do you hear them complain? Do you see them take action against their fans? Is this Metallica? No, this is Guns N? Roses.

Maybe their strength is their weakness and the other way around and maybe both can?t function without the other. The same can be said about their fans. Maybe it has to do with them only being human beings and having a personal life. Maybe it has to do with things in the music industry not always working as it seems on the surface. Maybe it has to do with misunderstandings.

See, especially at the moment, for a lot of people, there are more important things in life than music. Take a look around you, the world is changing. If you were an artist, would you consider your cultural efforts, a big part of your soul, worth putting out to audiences consisting mostly of cynical and hypocratic zombies in this time of madness and cultural downfall? The weakness of the US dollar, the struggle of the economy, the rise of gold, these are just foreshadows of dramatic things to happen. People discuss the climate change, when it is actually nuclear power they should worry about. People fear terror when they should actually fear losing their rights and living in a control-obsessed police state. But you just can?t wake up people because everyone has to wake up for oneself. The truth is inside everyone, you just have to lift the curtain to BE (a part of) the show rather than just watching it.

And yes, this does have a lot to do with music, as it affects our whole culture today.

If you spend precious time worrying about rock music, then you should spend also time caring about the culture that rock music reflects. Because you can only reap what you sew.

I ask you: Would you spend years of your life and energy on building a house for people who just want to see it burn so they can enjoy the fire rather than the shelter? Would you give your precious work away for people that care more about your haircut than about ten years of work? Or would you rather share it with the few that actually care, and maybe just wait until the rest wakes up from buying Paris Hilton records and goes back to what once made the western culture so great: progression.

The only thing worth criticising about GN?R is the setlist. They should finally use their full potential with playing more original (= new) stuff. That is progression too. But I don?t understand why so many prefer a music video on MTV and a physical CD over the personal real life experience of seing the band in concert. Please explain.

Too many ?fans? are talking about promotion and business related stuff more than they talk about the music, the lyrics. The stuff that really counts at the end of the day. The stuff that made you a fan in the first place. In the meantime, the band was already playing lots of concerts in America, Canada, Mexico, Japan, Australia and all over Europe for thousands of people. If you don?t go and rather sit here whining about no album then you are an idiot. I?m sorry, but you are really an idiot then. Fans that do nothing but complain about not having a physical CD when in reality they can get music for free and see Axl and the band IN PERSON, playing music live PERSONALLY FOR YOU, those people are idiots. You are idiots for not appreciating the most precious interaction you could possibly have with the band.

I believe in this band and I believe Axl really cares about his music and the fans, but I think maybe he prefers to have things as they are wich he found to be the way for him and his music. The result is great music (Catcher, TWAT, Better?) and probably the best rock concerts you can attend on planet earth at this time. What else do you expect from musicians other than good music and good concerts?

They are doing their job and they do it well.

You should not stab the band in the back with all the negative energy. Take them as they are as they never asked you to change either. Support them as you like or turn your back. They never asked you to kiss their asses. Just don?t use your energy to complain all the time. They do not deserve this. And you do not deserve this either. May I say?use your illusion? If you can. If you understand. I hope so. In other words: ?It don?t really matter.? But you have to ?find out for yourselves?. It?s right there in front of you, happening for years, happening as you read this. You are a part of it. All you have to do is lift the curtain. Why don?t you lift the curtain?

How about the lyrics of the new songs? What do they mean TO YOU? I would be intrested!

To me, they are about personal freedom, knowledge and growing up spiritually. I don?t know if that?s what they are about, but that?s what I read into them. And I think they are great lyrics, very layered and thoughtful, working on many levels, going hand in hand with the music.

For example: When it goes ?wrong time? in TWAT, the guitars play the ?wrong? thing ? a dissonant powerchord contrasting the beautiful harmonies with strings and all and just perfectly fitting with the lyrics at that part of the song.

In Better, after the aggressive middle part about all the negativity, the last part of the song with Robin?s solo lends onto beauty and relief, onto being sorry without regret, but rather having learned a lesson, becoming more complete, it?s very light and ?lifted?, as if a weight was taken off the shoulders, making the song a great carthasis piece.

How come so few write stuff like that? I don?t mean the lyrics, I mean the fans discussing them like this? Why don?t you make up your mind a bit? I read your postings and you are all very intelligent people, but you are wasting lots of time an energy on nothing. A lot of your questions would be answered if you would just do YOUR job as an audience and LISTEN. It?s all there.

You have a discussion board given to you but you are killing discussion with spreading bullshit lies and complaining about the band. If more discussion about the music would be made, then less lies and bullshit would occupy the boards and less censorship would be neccesary. On the other hand, less censorship would lead to better discussion quality. It's both sides.

Sorry for so much writing but I hope I could give you some food for thought and help start a discussion that needs to start somewhere. Looking forward to read you comment. Take care!

the morning after a trash party

Your writing is intelligent and you make some good points about the band and their music but you have way too much free time on your hands.

I liked what you had to say about the music and lyrics of both Better and TWAT

Thank you. I know it's a lot of reading, but I think it was better to make one long statement than 1000 small ones here and there.

I think it's a great post and kinda needed for some people here.

I wonder about that too. I love to discuss about the songs, about the changes they had since '99 to '07... I had a great time reading some posts about Better when it leaked (I mean, I searched for it and read it again). That's what I'm talking about. And now, when we had great 2007 boots for free to discuss about the changes and how they improved, people rather talk about some bullshit than the songs.

Some may back this behavior up with the "oh, but they don't release songs and the leaks are already old". That's bullshit too. The songs we know are always changing, sounding as fresh as possible again after the next listen. The performances itself deserves to be discussed, but it looks like as the setlist is the "same" (tho it's not), it doesn't matter. I care about what they do about their music, and that makes me satisfied until the album is finally released.

Anyways, I think a lot of nay-sayers will complain about your post anyways. You should expect that people always wait for something to go wrong and, even when there's nothing or something is actually positive, it's still wrong because it's not the way they expected. Clever, they always win.

IMHO, I wouldn't spend my time talking about a band that makes me feel so bad. As it's not my case, I'm still here trying to post useful thoughts about the music itself and being proud of what Guns N' Roses is and, hopefully, will be.

great post for the most part although I disagree in some spots.

I think you are dead on about the band and Axl in terms of communication and caring.

Same with the lyrics and music.

I think the problem is, atleast for me, I have "experienced" that live show over 5x. And I cant wait to do it again. But your post didnt really touch on the people who are in my boat. I feel stuck. I love and appreciate everything this band has done for me. I really dont demand or expect anything. Just great music, which thus far has been great.

Everyone targets the person that 'sits at home and doesnt even go to the shows". You discredit them and you should. But what about the person that goes to a couple of shows or practically travels with the band on a tour. Dont they have a voice? How come they arent addressed? How come they are considered whiners or asked to just walk away? Dont "good"/die hard fans have a right to sometimes question this whole process? Or should we just as you say...be ass kissers?

The thing is it seems as if we are just in a rut. I just want to enjoy the new album and hear what the new band has to offer. I want to get back to the old discussions that once flooded these boards of song and band topics. But I think those left after things seemed like one long cycle. Its the same thing every yr and it seems all that positive energy has now shifted to the long wait.

The wait is an issue. Im not trying to make this a "whining" post but I think it is important for people to realize that the reason some of the energy is down is because of the wait. I understand things change over time and sometimes Axl cant control certain things but when its all said and done it has been a very long time for this album. We have discussed those scenarios a zillion times.

Point is that the majority of fans are just waiting to rock out to the new stuff and the band. Honestly I think this band has squeezed out all the haters. There were a lot more haters on these boards from like 2000 till the better, twat,catcher etc leaks came out. There were a ton of debates of old vs new, new songs blow etc during that period. Its not even an issue. The hatred, cynicism, and annoying posters and media articles were much more prevelant during that time period. All of that is pretty much gone now. And you can credit Axl, the band, the concerts and most importantly...the music... for that

During this period I think we have die hard and new fans. And the wait is taking its toll on some. The true haters are gone imo. All the questions have been answered. When was the last old songs vs new songs thread and comparison? The last Slash vs Robin thread etc. I cant even remember. This place was much more hostile back in the day than it is now. And imo that is a good thing.? There was more energy as well during that period. There was a certain hunger from the fans who took it upon themselves to fend off the haters and "fight" for the new band. Now its totally different. Any haters that remain cant say anything and fans who have some legit gripes cant express that and being labelled a whiner or not a fan in the process. A very nuetered, watered down, one side/one view attitude and approach results fromt hat. Kind of like each view point now has there hands up in the air type thing. Now for a variety of reasons you cant express your opinion on this band and what has gone on ...thats for another time though...

I think mainly we all want the the album so we can enjoy it and see the band rock out and start the new chapter of gnr. The bookmark has been in place for way to long.

Thank you for your post! Brilliant!

To me, Better is the GN'R song with the best lyrics after Coma. Unlike Coma though, it is not as long and as heavy and thus is suitable for non-stop listening and for live performances. It has a much better chance of not being underrated.
TWAT I don't fully understand lyrically. But musically it is a spiritual journey...

P.S. This needs to be posted on other boards as well  ;)

First of all, that was a great post and I liked what you said about the songs and your perspective of the band, world, etc..

I don?t have much time now so let me comment on this.  I think everyone is different, some prefer the cd and some like concerts and some like both.  Some people may not like large groups of people so they may avoid going to shows and other live gatherings.

I think a lot of people are aware of this but I will say it anyway -
The physical CD is really the key to the Guns of 2007, that will be what breaks them to the next level.  At that point is when the setlists will start evolving and changing more.




p.s. younggunner i loved your post too about the state of the fanbase.. good call!

Well...to me, when the song surfaced, I was going through a very bad time. And to me, the lyrics sumed up everything that had gone wrong. Broken glass was the pain n' suffering I felt and the cigarettes...well, I went from smokin' like 5 a day to a pack or so or more...the rest. Well...I'd rather not get into that.

Like everyone else, I too am looking forward to the release of the new album, but if it never sees the light of day, I'm okay with that too.  I would imagine that the more time that passes, the more difficult it would be to release the album.  Nobody can judge the album if it isn't available yet, especially if you are a public person who know that the haters are just waiting to say "See, 13 years and the album sucks!" I'm only guessing -- it's just my personal theory on why the album isn't out yet, but who knows what goes on behind the scenes in the music biz.

Regarding fans feeling like the band owes them, I don't agree with that.  If you go to a concert, the band owes you a good show where they gave it their all and didn't phone it in.  If you meet a member of the band in public and you are respectful to them, they equally owe you respect as well, even if it's just a passing nod in acknowledgement to let you know I see you, thank you for your appreciation.  I've been a fan of GNR since I was 12 years old (I'm 28) and I don't think GNR owe me a darn thing, but then again I've never been to a show like many of the other board members (i'm disabled so it's not practical for me).

And regarding some of the lyrics (at least what I've heard so far) I think the "broken glass and cigarettes" line is a reference to Stephanie and Axl's Christmas party where there was apparently some big upset.  I read something about broken glass on the kitchen floor.  But that's my own theory -- I don't personally connect to the song lyrics in relation to my own life because I've never lost a great love like that.  I feel blessed to not be with my ex anymore so I can't really relate to that longing for a past love. 

When I first read the lyrics of this song I thought I was about the Charles Manson / Tate-LaBianca Murder.

Just listen to the rest of the lyrics...it's about Axl going through a tough time with a chick.  It was the wrong time for you, it was the wrong time for me, it was a wrong time for everyone.......

I just wanted to say this : Thank you for this amazing compilation of thoughts and points. This is probably one of the best posts I've ever read about the band and their way of doing things.

Hell if english ain't your first language you sure do have some skills there ! It's not mine either but I hope I'll write someday like this :yes:

To me the lyrics and music of the new material are simply beautifull. I can listen to There Was A Time over and over again, same with The Blues and Better. Those songs can deliver and/or fit any emotions you're going through and to me that's priceless.

Broken glass and cigarettes ... To me (at the moment) it sounds like the description of a morning after a fight with the loved one, when that person has left and you just wake up and all that's left behind is a mess.

The broken glass line is describing the apartment

"Broken glass and cigarettes, writing on the wall
It was a bargain for the summer, and I thought I had it all"

I always thought of those lines as a metaphor for being in a shitty relationship and not realizing it.  As in, he's describing an apartment he lived in that was a total shit hole but at the time he thought it was great, connecting that experience the relationship he talks about in the song

Thank you all for your replies. I see there is some kind of demand for discussion even when it takes some more time to post / read then. You have made some intresting points, younggunner. But don't you think the band sometimes is as frustrated? What do they have from playing games with the fans? Nothing. And I don't think they do. I think it's a lot of things coming together why some things sometimes not work as planned.

In another discussion, I asked someone what he would prefer: The CD or the band? I said what is more important to you, a little silver piece of plastic or the band and their music? If you could only have one, what would would choose? I know that is tough but think about your priorities for a second.

If you are intrested in my views on TWAT and want to share yours about that song, I say keep this thread for general "state of interaction" discussion and take the song discussion on to the new topic.

Again thank you everyone for your respond. I see I am not alone with some of my views. And you see you are not alone with yours either.

You are 100% right.

Great post  : ok:

freedom of speech was allways my moto '

ok.. you can call me everything you want but... what does the title has to do with the post?  ???

I think people complain and are negative because the media and society teach us negativity. Plus, you are right, Western civilization is nothing like it was, I believe we will become a controlled, policed country because the government is taking away all our freedom - which makes people negative as well. The music is an escape and I think people are looking for some new material to escape to. Plus, I also think people think that complaining or whining or ranting will make the CD come out faster but it won't. It's just like a kid, you can ask them to do something they don't want to do, then tell them to do it, then start yelling because they won't do it and all the while the kid is not going to do anything because you are taking the wrong approach. Maybe if we were positive, Axl would release the album because he wouldn't be so fearful it would bomb and he would get ripped apart by every person in this world with an opinion.

I think it is a great suggestion to discuss song lyrics, setup, what is the message? So, many people see so many different things in music, it's great to open up your mind to their ideas and think of things in a new way.

As for broken glass and cigarettes, well, I think Axl was talking about a time in which everything was a party and all he did was fight with someone he loved because they were either high, drunk, or hung over. The place he lived was probably trashed after many of the parties so this imagine will stick in his mind. (I know, I have a similar scene from a Florida hotel room at spring break - between two beds, I have a pic of coke, a mirror, cigarette ashes, bud stems, beer cans and a smoking bowl all on the little table and the phone is knocked off the hook.) Anyway, he fell in love with someone at the wrong time - when he was partying and messed up and he didn't have his shit totally together. Again, I have experienced being in love with someone definitely at the wrong time in life. He longs for the relationship now because he is centered and has a better handle on life. He wishes it could happen today instead of so long ago.

Thanks for the post. It certainly brings up many things to blog about!

i know that could be true.if you think back on times in life.that you would do different now.sometimes you feel like if someone knew you really had a grip on things.it could go way differently.and maybe that other person isn't happy right now in there life.and would think of you at the same time.if would come true both people could end up happy.

Ok then I call you intelligent for asking that question.

The line refers in the song to an aftermath but wich is just the calm before a storm of clearness and enlightenment that goes on later in the song muscially. Wich is what the fans experience too. The calm is the waiting. If you manage to get past your frustration and dissapointment and transform that energy into something positive then you are in for something more inspiring wich I hope this thread can help to get there.

I agree RocknRoses the music is where its at, unfortunately there hasn't been much over the last 14yrs and thats whats extemely frustrating. And yes I've been to see the new band numerous times. Unfortunately now I'm quite disappointed with the whole thing, but I keep coming back just in the faint hope of an announcement or release date.

Release some new music and we're all happy. And yes I'd prefer to have an album over unofficial leaks or having to wait until the next time they tour or listening to Axl guest spot on Seb's album. But thats just my opinion though.  : ok:

As for broken glass and cigarettes? I don't read much into lyrics (I prefer listening to the instruments) but its a cool line. Not sure about the funny bit at the start though
 

 ;D You look like a Philosophy teacher I once had. You got a gift with words  ;)

broken glass and cigarettes?
Night on the piss ain't it!!

Yeah man, I don't get it either.  My mom and I have had this conversation a million times, and we agreed that if faced with the choice of CD coming out faster or more tours, we'd like more tours.  There's really nothing else like seeing the boys live. 


AMEN.  I haven't been around the fanbase as much lately, but it's one of the reasons I turned away for a bit, the negative energy is way too overwhelming for a band we all love. 


I viewed both of these examples the exact same way.  TWAT was awesome for me because there's sometimes a point in life where even knowing what you know now - it won't change that person from your past because knowing them it won't change a damn thing.   :) I've always loved Axl's way of putting things.

Did they erase the VELVET REVOLVER threads?

damn

and Broken glass and cigarrettes I guess it doesnt mean something beyond that...
unless you wanna interpret every single line he sings...

rockNroses, this is one of the best posts I've read on this board. I couldn't find one thing that I disagree with ... which is unusual.
 The song to me is a metaphor for a love/hate relationship, that should have ended before it did, and the chaos that ensued when the break finally occured.


@ .Carlos M.s., the VR threads are still here ... look.

read my post and you'll see what is bad english? ;D

I agree

I agree

ok...just listen to madagascar live and the leak, especially the solo, which is inaudible live !
Like you said, The stuff that really counts at the end of the day is the lyrics and the music, and only on a physical CD you can hear each instrument perfectly and whenever you want...that is not the case with a concert, is it ??

that's a joke ... when they play live in front of 15,000 people, do you really think that every single person can see axl and the band IN PERSON ??? :o

I agree, and the lyrics that most illustrate this is "I'm freed of all the chains" from Madagascar.

About the song "the blues", two things I don't understand:
first, I wonder why the music is joyful whereas the lyrics are sad.
second: axl says "I don't know just what I should do, everywhere I go I see you", then he says "what I thought was beautiful don't live inside of you anymore" , it is a little bit contradictory , isn't it ?

nice post rockNroses !

I think he's just setting the the tone with those lines. Damn, I love that song! : ok:

On the studio demo of Madagadcar the solo is in the background too, maybe that is intended? I don't know, but some bootlegs that have the solo up front have the quotes in the background, it's mostly either one thing or the other. I think it could be a mixing problem or they are just trying to see what works best for the song. Looks like the quotes are more important in this song as they were up front in the mix on most shows so far. If you can hear each instrument that depends...if you want pure sound there is nothing to live sound. But as for home a decent soundboard recording can keep up with an official live CD. For me the only thing wrong with their live sound is that it is just not loud enough.


If you want, of course. Sometimes it depends on the venue but if you want to get close to the stage, that should not be a problem. You might need to come early, bring some patience and nerves and you might have to say some "sorry" or "excuse me" here and there but it was not a problem for me. Some time ago, I was at a Rolling Stones concert with 100.000+ people now that was something else. It makes you kinda grateful when you attend a show with 15.000 audience.


I thought the same, but it makes sense for me this way:

"What I thought was beautiful..." = maybe the key is "thought", like he only THOUGHT it was beautiful , "...don't live inside of you anymore" = the illusion is gone. Or, if he only "thought" it was beautiful, whatever wasn't beautiful is gone. But I agree, it is contradictory, you can look at the song from different sides and still it would make sense, like a song in a song. Or just great lyrics.