Here Today... Gone To Hell!

To make it more apparent that this is not a VR site, the VR section is now a subforum of the main Ex-Gunners section.


I hope this makes it clear for everybody that the focus for this site is Guns N' Roses.  : ok:




/jarmo

Its cool, i suppose. Its your decision, I wasn't particularly bothered by its previous location. Hopefully this puts an end to the ongoing debate regarding it.  :)

Yeah like this is going to solve anything...

it does look better off the front page, i must say.  8)

Just when u think it can't get any worse.................................

wow...this is becoming a joke...  ::)

geez guys its not like the section is gone and you can't get to it and discuss the same topics.   does one extra click hurt that much?  :crying:

I have a request




How about all Threads in the GNR section promoting lame ass Tribute bands get deleted?


That isn't exactly Guns N Roses u know?

I know. They add more GN'R songs to their set.

Isn't it bad enough to have that talentless poser ass clown singing two GN'R classics.... Now it's three.





/jarmo

I'm a bigger GNR fan than a VR fan, but in the last 24 months which band has released more CDs, sold more CDs, played more shows and played to more fans?

Scott may or may not be a "talentless poser ass clown".? But as a band there's really no doubt who's achieved more in the last couple of years.

Don't let blind hatred get in the way of facts.?

Honestly, I don't care if they release 10 cds in a year.

This isn't a VR site. Why should we focus on them?

I don't get it.


I think GN'R have played for more people in the last year than VR.....



Judging by the activity that happens here when GN'R tour compared to when VR does, I'd say it's clear people are here for GN'R.

A small group of VR fans come here to start shit and claim they're here because they "love the real GN'R".

Well guess what, this site's not for them and it should be extra clear now.



/jarmo

Rather than treat the VR fans as if they have leprosy, why not just get rid of the section then?

What don't you understand?


There are actually decent people out there who can support GN'R but are just a bit curious about what people like Izzy Stradlin, Steven Adler or Duff McKagan are up to these days.


In also respect that these people were once part of GN'R.




/jarmo

Just all seems a bit hypocritical.    One second you're bashing them.  The next second you're saying that the forum sticks around "out of respect".

Anyway, never mind. 

Just because I respect what they did in GN'R doesn't mean I have to like and agree with what they do now in 2007 (or since they left GN'R).

Just because I respect the fact that Steven was part of making AFD the classic it is, doesn't mean I have to think the Adler's Appetite EP is a classic.



/jarmo

Long live VR and never interrupt GN'R. :peace:

Wow we agree , amazing.

Great desicion in my opinion. In fact, I've always thought that a sticky topic in the ex gunners section should be enough.

Now the forum does look a lot better from the index  :beer:

I think it was a good move!  Not that anyone cares what I think, but I'm just sayin'.....    it makes more sense where it is now, under Ex Gunners. 

Well leave, quit your bitching and get over it.

THIS is a GUNS N' ROSES site, not a Velvet Revolver hooligan hang out!

 Great quote, there!  :hihi: :hihi:  Well, I guess I could be included as a "hooligan"!  (A hooligan?!?)  But, I have learned (I hope) to have respect, because I do like this site.  I do understand the administration and where it's coming from. 

Let me preface this by saying that I am a VR fan. It was the logical thing to do; It should have been there from the start.

No biggie.

Exactly.....

If I had any clue as to who the fuck u even are, maybe I'd get offended by your statement.

I just find it to be bullshit that guys who have helped make GNR the legendary band they are today get pushed to a Sub board when they use to be celebrated around here.

People can swallow whatever kool aid they want but without 2 of those guys in VR, this forum wouldn't exist.

Its just the principle of it all and leads to the belief that this board is further doing nothing but tryin to please Axl instead of being a subjective place for GNR fans to gather and discuss.

Uh...you know who it is.

if VR deserve a board on the main page, then so does Izzy and so does Stevens' Appetite or whatever the fuck he calls his band.   It all fits much nicer in the ex-gunners section.   If I really want a place dedicated to VR, I'm pretty sure they have an official board.

^I think I have gained a whole new respect for you.

I think the reason VR has its own board is pretty much that they are an active group with some success. The fact that they're active and present in media also doing interviews and such means that more people want to talk about them. And there's actually some news to talk about.

Other members are not so active, and do not get as much coverage so it is only natural to group them all into one board and not have 5 subboards with 1-5 topics each.

I really don't mind the VR-section. What I do mind is people's attitudes towards one group or ?the other... YES, this is the new GN'R, deal with it... And YES, the new wouldn't exist without the old, deal with it... They're both valid arguments. But can we _please_ as humans try to fucking move on. I really don't know how people can find the energy to whine and bitch about the same topics year after year. It seems like by having a VR section (never mind whether it exists as a main-, or a subforum,) something gets taken away from the people who only like the new GN'R.

I don't think that moving the board as a subsection is making things worse. In fact I believe it is the right thing to do. But it does make me wonder why some people don't like the idea of having a piece of the board for discussing an active group that has 3 ex-members. I believe for fans like me who like both bands, it's a hell of a lot easier not having to register to a few forums when I can talk about the bands that I like with the people on this board. I don't know if I'm getting older or what the deal is, but I sometimes think that the board used to be a lot more mature in some ways.

I agree with everything u said but could u imagine this place if everyone agreed and got a long......... :hihi:

Here here, (takes a big drink of Ky liquor):beer::beer:

I get your drift but, Slash and Duff didn't make Axl's voice what it is did they?? :hihi:

Quit it, stop this shit right now. lock this thread

you can thank jimbob mainly for this change to the forum ways.

Nope. Not at all.

Everybody can thank you.  :hihi:





/jarmo

Thank you Jim Bob and mrlee


everybody satisfied now? :P

sure ok.

jarmo i think you need to do some thinking about your website and your forums.

Its labelled a guns n roses fansite. Its one of the biggest, there was a reason for that.

Back in 2004 i was getting heavily into guns n roses, i googled them and at the time there site was dead, so i saw this and how active it was the site provided a great deal of information on what happened to gnr and all members involved, past and new. For ages after watching a bootleg of gnr with buckethead i thought they were a load of shit and freaks and wanted old gnr to reform. However as the new line ups came out 2006 and leaks came out i got into gnr2007, saw them live and had a blast, i liked the way the forum everyone had oppinions and there wasnt any bias, moderators sorted arguments out fairly. So because of the tolerance and open mindedness of the place, you got another fan into the 2007 gnr, isnt that what this place is about?

Now everyones biased just because you had a moment of fame touring with guns and now anyone who has an oppinion which in any way isnt that of your own or axls its a big deal.

The forum was popular for open mindedness and acceptance of all fans of all gnr line ups.

notice many people are deleting accounts? because of your change in policies around here are ridiculous, your "if you dont like it then fuck off you're not welcome" statements put people off what was once a great forum and website. 

If anyone agrees with me please state in this forum or in a pm to jarmo, maybe it will kick some sense into him and wake him up again.

Obviously you don't get it.

Did you ever think that the board has changed because things have changed?

Maybe I could understand some of the frustrations in 2005 when nothing was going on with GN'R.

Then 2006 came and some of those people, not all of them, were still fucking whining.

It's like in 2005 it was "why can't they tour like everybody else?  :crying: ". So we get two tours in 2006 and it becomes "why are they playing these songs?  :crying: ".


At some point you have to either let these people keep bringing everybody else down or you just put an end to it.

So I did what people like you dislike, because I'm not allowing you the platform for your senseless whining anymore, I decided I've had enough.

I decided I've had enough of people whining about things happening at concerts on other continents and things that happened ten years ago.


All this has been going on for more than just a few weeks.

I'm not gonna pretend to love Velvet Revolver to get a bunch of VR fans to register here. I'm not gonna start a new old GN'R section to get people who live in the past to register.

I just do what I've always done. Since day one. Do what feels right.



Explain this so called fame thing.

I still don't assume people know about this site or me and I get surprised when I hear somebody say they visit it.

You make it sound like I should be ashamed for spending my savings on traveling wherever GN'R are playing.





/jarmo

ive never complained about guns n roses current set list. nor did i complain about axl making me wait hours overtime for a show despite him having a ban of people taking there own drinks in because of fear of people throwing them onstage so we all died from heat waiting. i didnt care about that, i just wanted the show, i got the show.

my issue here, is the sudden change of ways which are frankly ridiculous in which people who are more fans of gnr line up 86 to 94 are looked to be lesser than that of people who bum  gnr2007 and discredit the older line ups. Because some people preffer slash doesnt mean they dislike gnr2007.

It?s useless... I?ve tried but it?s just useless...

For the first time since I joined this board I?m joining another one.

some shit has went too far.. not only the VR stuff, for example all the SLC crap with people having screen names that are like 25 letters long, i remember when i had a long ass screen name and you said i should change it because it it was "stocking up the look of the board" or something, i don't know how to say it in english but i'm sure you know how i mean.. it must be much more annoying with 5-10 regular posters have those long ass names then when one person had it, don't you think?

Poor kids, you didn't even read my post. Just the usual "I didn't complain" and "the sudden change".

You don't even try to see the other side of the coin. It's all about what you want, not about what kind of board we want.



And then you have the nerve to talk about useless.




/jarmo

well surely isnt that a hypocritical statement? because its exactly the same thing.

Why thank you SLC Punk ! ?:D

I just I don't mind Velvet Revolver, but this is a Guns site.

I have belonged to other sites, like RosesofVelvet.com.  But all they do is bitch and whine at that place.  That routine get's sad, and on top of the fact they punk articles from here and news reports, which is unoriginal. It has one of the biggest whiners / bitchers / flip floppers in Guns site history: James Lofton 29.

What appeals about HTGTH, it is the best Guns site on the net, Jarmo has not let it get out of control and people here for the most part are very positive and want this band to succeed. So, I think it is necessary, that Jarmo cracks down hard on the bitchers and whiners.

Sorry for my whining, this is my last post in this thread.

We, as in the people who run this place.

According to you, we should adjust instead of having the guests adjust.


It's like you demanding a restaurant or night club to change their dress code because you don't agree with wearing a jacket.



/jarmo

surely a person running something for the public, runs it to please the public. if it was all about the moderators then youd have a private 7 member forum or something.

Like the government for example, they run the country, but they still have the please the people in it.

the restaurant would be better if everybody was welcomed as long as they could behave.. and don't order a hamburger at the italian restaurant, if the guests want that they could go to mcdonalds.. but also the customer can complain about the food though.. right?

but maybe the customer's never right either i guess

As I said, if you had actually read what I posted, there'd be no argument.


I've never been about trying to figure out what "mrlee in England" or anybody else wants me to do with the site.

I figured pretty early on that you can't please everybody and the only way you can keep yourself interested is by doing what you believe in and what you think is cool.


Because of that, I have to make a lot of unpopular decisions and do things that cause others to hold grudges.



/jarmo

ok then. well ive given my oppinions and reasons. youve read them which means youve taken them in even if you disagree. Thats good enough for me.

end of discussion for me for now.

Maybe but they are not in GN'R any longer. They have moved on to different things. One can deal about their past in the GN'R section (as long as one doesn't bring back V.R. or any current activity by a former member, ?::) ) so it 's all good, ?: ok:
Jarmo found a good compromise, keeping a board about V.R. but removing it from the main board. ?It is the best solution as the band's being pretty active and news are posted every single day -or so. A ?V.R. thread would reach 200 pages within a week and would be such a mess, ?:nervous:. ?And if there was no specific place for V.R. in wasn't yesterday great, threads about V.R. would be mixed with threads about Izzy and stuff = a mess as well.
So... Be happy !

I must say that i find all those changes confusing and even with the sigs which didn't change, i must still have a look at those persons ' profile to make out who is who,  :confused:

^
It's unfortunate
That people don't have distinct
Posting styles here.   ;D

Back to the topic:
This ain't a democracy!
Jarmo's in charge, kids.

I like some VR,
Haven't purchased "Libertad"...
I'm not a huge fan.

They ARE "Ex-Gunners".
I love the "Star Wars" movies,
But when Mark Hamill

Makes "The Guyver 3"
Do I need to discuss it
On a "Star Wars" board?

(There are Star wars boards
Somewhere out there, aren't there?
Never been to one...)

Splash

/Mike

Good move Jarmo!

No hard feelings to Slash and Duff at all!

I agree, it's a really lame joke.

Not that this thread should be turned into a ROV thread but let me say this, we talk about good and bad about GNR of today, people express how they feel to a point and we allow it.   We don't just lift articles from here, we get articles from our own sources as well as here like mostly all forums get articles from other forums, doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that. 

I can quote many a post and post them here of your extremely negative posts against GNR and Axl.

And before you start praising HTGTH [nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong] and bashing us, don't let me prove how you really feel about this place.

Peace out!

You should change your name to Sterlingupunk then.

its Four.




Edit: Personally, I don't mind where the VR section is. As long as its here.

sorry MIke but thats a bad analogy, If they ever REMADE Star Wars U can guarantee the new actor playing Luke would be compared and scrutinized like hell compared to the original.

The fact Axl is keeping the name means anything his band does has to live up the legacy of what the original band accomplished and did. This is why they are compared and scrutinized and why Axl OWES himself, the fans and most importantly, the band that has stuck with him all these years an album release.


To me releasing the album is how u truly gain acceptance for the new band, cause a new album shows their creativity and shows whether or not they measure up.

I sympathize for the new guys and how they are constantly scrutinized but it's Axl's fault for taking them on an Appetite For Destruction world tour.

We want to see what THEY can come up with, we already know how great the old band is/were.'


My problem with posters on here are, they are ready to call so and so the greatest this or that before they've done anything.

Playing guitar parts written by someone else does not make u a great guitar player. U become a legend based on what u create and right now this band gets an incomplete.

I was pissed once here, about some censorship.

But it is a good thing.

And no you guys do bitch about the band constantly.

Don't tell me how I feel about this place, because I like it.

So grow up, you advertise your board on our site, and yes I can criticize that place.

If you don't like it here move on, and go micro manage your own place.

The fact of the matter is you have a forum member that constantly bitches about new gnr and he is a moderator.

So please don't dare tell me how I feel about this place.? What are you Hitler?

I love this place and have posted since 2002. At times, I have got frustrated. But that is human nature.

Get a life and fuddle duddle!

and this is lifting and bashing a member of our site here!

http://www.rosesofvelvet.com/forum/index.php/topic,6078.0.html

Last time I checked, this thread was not about ROV. So getting cheap advertisement in is lame. I am just defending myself.

The fact is your site does bash the band a lot and punks updates and messages from here.

That is all I am saying, so get back on topic and end this sillyness!

Jimmer do me a favor go show boat on someone elses time instead of Jarmo's board if anyone is bringing attention to us, it's you.   You have a beef with James and us for banning your ass and now you feel the need to "get us back"

oh and I don't have to tell you how you feel but I can sure show it if I so choose and I think I will.

http://www.rosesofvelvet.com/forum/index.php/topic,4984.msg85503.html#msg85503

http://www.rosesofvelvet.com/forum/index.php/topic,3292.msg99948.html#msg99948

besides wasnt it you jimmerjammer that wanted to "hack" this board for all the leaks the staff was hoarding ::) you're just sore cuz we got sick of you shit then you came crawling back here cuz you had no where else to go

and as for james when you thought he had the leaks from a while ago you were begging me to tell you what James knew

just fuck off k? : ok:

uh no i never said that thank you.

and i appreciate you modifying my messages. it shows your class!

Oh Please, I don't think on any of those messages it says on the bottom that they have been modified by any of the staff.. Try again : ok:

That second one was because JJ threw in a bunch of shit about Jarmo and HTGTH that James deemed inappropriate for our site.  We don't like to toss around insults, which is why you were banned in the first place... If you keep this up we'll have some fun and post what we removed from our open board because you were spewing shit about HTGTH members.  Of course... This has nothing to do with Jarmo's decision to move the VR section (technically, it makes sense as they are ex-members of the band and I don't see it as a big deal), so why do you even bother with the ROV insults here? 

Posting shit from other message forums is fuckin Lame and thats all Im gonna say.



Everyone needs to vent sometimes.

Doesn't mean u aren't? a fan but sometimes I get pissed and curse Axl. Oh My God did I really say that?? Oh Shit, there goes my backstage pass when GNR come to Atlanta. ::)

Quick better retreat

Axl is Jesus and Robin has more talent in his belt buckle than 10 slash's combined.

There, Backstage pass resecured : ok:

^ now that was lame.

Oh, you still didn't get about the setlist. I'm sorry, how many shows where you at in 2007?

About the guitar parts... When you have at least 8 new songs out there (demo or live versions) and all are way above average, unlike the other band with ex-members, you can prefer those ones. It's not about being a legend or not, but more if you like it or not. I don't need to wait for a failure to still prefer them.

And please, if you take your time to answer my post, don't use this "I don't know who you are" shit again.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
thats just a pure class comment right there D. : ok:

Well when someone asks for it, they ask for it and just for the record for someone who wants to vent sometimes is fine but he was one of the biggest whiners as he put it on our site, the biggest and vulgar which was another reason he was outted.    I called the kettle black in this situation, lame or not.   

you are quite welcome sir.  :beer: ::)

Who are Velvet Revolver?

a band that probably puts on a pretty cool show but releases mediocre albums.

Yeah, I was banned at your site.

For sticking up for Mysteron cause I was sick and tired of the bashing going on.

You guys bashed him, and I got banned for telling you to fuck off.

With, regards to those messages or posts I have no knowledge of ever saying anything bad about here and if my user name suggested I did on your site it was not me, since I use a shared computer thanks.

Yes I was pissed, because your lame site claims that they do not allow bashing of other site members yet you had a whole thread dedicated to bashing Mysteron.

So fornicate off TWAT! and as I stated before go crawl back to your lame hater site and troll on.

Nice move Jarmo, thank you :)

Personally that fucking section could even disappear for me.

Yes, I feel like I've been wading through dirt every time I'm held up in there!  :confused:

a band with a drummer who thinks axl rose is jealous about them  :hihi:

they also allow their members to bash people in their sigs (Communist China).  Nothing against them, I used to go there and post alot and theres some cool peeps, but its gotten way to cynical for my likes.

You also seem to think you're the only one with access to e-mail. Considering you think I take your "news" and post them here without giving credit.

FYI: I got an e-mail with a quote by Ron. I didn't go to your site to find it.  : ok:




As I told somebody from your site, you guys have a totally different definition of what supporting the band means.


It's no wonder many artists hate the Internet.


/jarmo

 Anyone just has to click on your profile Jimmerjammer to see just how much you bashed over and over and over again one of the biggest bashers at our site infact before we cut you lose.    This thread just shows how pissed off you are at that fact.

Keep trying to scam people for leaks too, that went over well.



I guess he just copied and pasted one email to you and to me then at least I gave credit for the email on my site.   

As far as definition, good I am glad we see it two different ways.   At least I don't troll my own VR section and ex gunner section and also disrepect the original band as you say you don't but you very well do so.   Ban me now cuz Jarmo, I support this band but it ain't all sunshine and roses like you want us and I am sure they want us to believe that this was another banner year for GNR just cuz they had a good tour, which btw I am happy about but lets face it, this band is extremely dysfunctional and you and them will find every excuse under the sun to explain all that is fucked up away.    Insane and more people are seeing it and getting pissed here or you wouldn't be arguing in every thread that you have.

Yeah, I'm just a bit more subtle.

I just didn't think "Hey look who e-mailed me!" was that important to get the point across.




I don't disrespect the past accomplishments. Or the part that former member's had in those accomplishments.

If you have proof that I do, let's see them now.

Or maybe you're busy posting Youtube clips of yourself promoting ROV?



I don't pretend to love something I don't only to get visitors.

Funny how you attack me for "trolling the VR section" while on your board it's ok to attack GN'R.  On one hand I get attacked for posting my views on VR, but on the other hand you're proud of having a board where speculation and negativity about the band we all are fans of (GN'R) is just business as usual.


People living in glass houses should not throw stones.




/jarmo

Well that's concerning, does it not bother you that somebody's logging onto GNR sites as you and started bashing HTGTH? Are you not worried this person who bashed HTGTH on ROV as JimmerJammer won't come onto this site and start bashing it? I can show you the posts if you like, just so you know what this imposter pretending to be you said about this site and GNR in general.
 
: ok:

I was going to ignore this shit from the rov street teamm but after reading this I can't resist. Almost every single one of you over there have bashed this board and Jarmo on a regular basis. Hell I can even remember a thread with you're good buddy jameslofton bashing the shit out of Jarmo because james wasn't picked as a mod here. That's the kind of people that are at rov, and then you wonder why people say bad shit about you guys over there.  ::)

Sorry, ROV Team, but I was banned for sticking up for Mysteron.

I called your "god" James Lofton a stupid shit or something, and he is.

You guys have / had a whole post dedicated to an individual who supplies insider info and who has allowed fans pre sales. To me that is a good guy, and none of you guys are insiders so it comes off as jealous.

If I ever said anything bad about Jarmo or this site I am sorry, but upon my recollection I have not. It is a fact the computer I use in my apartment is a shared computer and 2 of my roomates have changed my messages and gone on my board accounts. So sorry, and no I don't have to explain myself anymore.

The fact of the matter is I am not a hater, I have been frustrated sometimes but I want this band to succeed.

As for leaks, I didn't want any, I just wanted to? and did prove that some people are flip floppers.

The fact of the matter, this is about the Velvet Revolver section being moved and I am glad it is moved.

In conclusion, get a life (ROV team).

Hey Jarmo


When the fuck are we gonna get a Bon Jovi sub board in Bad Obsession? :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

I think I visited that section once or twice (the VR section) and actually didn't even notice the change before reading this thread lol, so it's not like it's gonna change my life. I don't see what the big deal is. I'm sure there are lots of boards out there for VR fans (and I respect them, I just...dislike the singer of the band they're rooting for). No harm done here. It's a Guns N' Roses board after all.

As for the SLC thing...it took me a while to see that the "real" SLC didn't have SLC in his screenname (unless it changed again), I have to click on their screennames to see if I know them or not. A bit annoying, but it'll pass. It always does.

Good call, and hopefully some of the people who are in love with Velvet Revolver and have a negative view of GnR will find somewhere else to post.  There are plenty of GnR "fan" sites where the crybabies can gather and bitch about Guns to their hearts content.  Thankfully, this isn't one of those sites

You have the section "wasnt yesterdays great", why not have a couple of sub sections in there like:

Paradise City - Discuss the GN'R era from the 80's

Get In The Ring- Discuss the GN'R era from the 90's

Estranged - Discuss former members other projects
 

Mabye not as detailed as that, but something clearly defining the bounderies between past and present.
I think that this could be a fairly decent way to smooth over some of the problems that running a fan site for Guns N Roses brings. It is a complex history and many people do visit this site just to read and learn about the band and also to discuss it with fellow fans.
 Most of the people who come here just read, they dont really post and they dont spam the board with futile arguments.

They come to read about the band they wanna know about, and the band they wanna know about has been around since the 80's up to today. Thats a lot of history and it may work well for visitors if it was strutured a little clearer.

It would be cool if folk could freely discuss and ask questions about the Guns N Roses they know from their album covers (for the younger folk) or sharing memories and stories of those days (for the old timers 20/30 somethings :-X)

I have never seen the point in having a Velvet Revover section, it is a completely different band and should be filed under other projects.

Then mabye that would free up the main Guns N Roses section for discussion for the current era, the recent tours and future tours, the new songs, the new album, the members who are currently in GN'R etc. To discuss what Guns N Roses is today and tomorrow.

I know you say you wont pander to anyone, but mabye this way you can state that the Guns N Roses section is for discussion of the present band, not the past and visitors to the site will be less tetchy and wont feel as if they are being denied something.

*cough* my gnr *cough*

You must've misunderstood something.

We don't deny the past.

Just because we don't want people here who says things like "I only support the real GN'R" or "I love GN'R, but they don't exist anymore".


The focus is obviously on the present. But If I feel like posting a question about the November Rain video, I'll do so in the GN'R section.




/jarmo

Except for tinfoil crossover shit. That's fuckin' kool.

It's spelled KEWL.

That will be all.

 :beer:

Well played...

Well the point to a VR board IMO is that the ex gunners section would get insane with topics on them , its inevitable that it would. I don't see what the issue is , just click the little Velvet Revolver child forum link underneath the Ex Gunners section and you're set to go. But I agree having a certain board to post for only a specific era is a good idea.

Hmmm.

I happen to think that the SLC Army are pretty funny. And, on a slightly related note, that "Prostitute for the Sterling Pictures" comment that someone made was downright hilarious.

I've lurked around the ROV board a little, and while they seem like decent enough people, their constant negativity makes the board almost unreadable. Ironically, DoubleTalkingJive is one of the least negative posters there, and "J" was one of the most negative. So this whole change of attitude wreaks of desperate hypocrisy - which would be a great album title, by the way.

And I think turning the Velvet Revolver section into a sub-forum was a good decision. Of course, Jarmo and Jim Bob staying away from that sub-forum as much as possible would be an even better decision, but what can you do.

Alright, I'm done commenting on everyone. Feel free to keep arguing though...

Exactly , It feels like JB and Jarmo go in there , just to stir stuff up and start controversy and than complain about how the VR forum is horrible and too many people say this or that , and its like well sometimes it feels provoked.

what do I say in there that's so bad?  8)

I got banned on another board today for "hijacking" a VR concert thread when all I did was disagree with someone's statement.   yet at that very same board the GnR section gets FLOODED with hate, negativity, poking fun the band at their expense, and velvet revolver shit.     And most of the trolls doing it have been doing it for months, even years.

My point is, there are plenty of other boards out there that claim to be Guns N' Roses boards but embrace Velvet Revolver even more than the band the forum is named after!    Check out those sites if its such a big deal.   The double standards are fucking insane and so I don't see why this board can't have more of a GnR focus and let the VR shit take a back seat.   Way the fuck in the back.

They embrace a certain era of the band , you have to face it that YES to some people ( sadly ) Guns N Roses will to them be Axl and Slash , some go as far to say Axl , Slash , Izzy , Duff and Steven. I don't find a problem with the last statement though , obviously this isn't a Velvet Revolver forum , sure we have some VR fans but as stated its a GNR board , and its clear that the administration wants to focus on the NOW not the PAST. VR have their own board , for their fans on this site. If you aren't a fan don't come in pretty simple.

People don't understand that this forum has a different focus, just because there is a section dedicated to VR here it doesn't mean that people who post in the VR section have to be fans of VR. People who support this site offer a different point of view about the VR situation that Duff and Slash have found themselves in.

If you just want to read positive comments about VR, there are other sites for that.

There are people here old enough to remember GN'R in the 80s and the strange feeling of 'brotherhood'/togetherness that the band gave to the world...........

Sometimes, it is good for Slash and Duff to hear the constructive criticism from their 'fans' in the 80s. We are sometimes harsh but if your friends can't tell you the truth then who can?

Come on now, enough's enough! Scott does the Nazi salute way too freely.
 :no:

That defeats the purpose of everything because in THAT case check this out

There are people here who are from the 80's and DON'T like NEW GNR , and sometimes they post comments , its good for Axl to hear constructive criticism from "fans' in the 80's right? We are harsh but someone needs to say it right?

I mean its retarded if you don't like VR why post in the section? Just to stir stuff up and cause problems.

You need to understand the point of this forum. People here support Guns N' Roses. We give all our support to Axl and the band. That is the main focus of this site. Respect it. If you can't get your head around it go elsewhere.

As far as giving Axl some constructive criticsim from fans in the 80s, it would be good if those 'fans' had their facts straight before opening their mouths to criticize something they really know little about.

No I completely understand that I'm saying do you see how stupid my statement sounded , thats how it sounds for you to say that about non VR fans on the VR board. The same can go for VR and criticism from old fans.

No mate, the difference is that this board supports Axl in every way.

With all due respect RageNirvanaNIN, I don't know how many times Jarmo, Jimmy Bobby, myself and others have had the same conversation with you. I think Jarmo has shown you more than enough patience by explaining his vision of the forum to you........and yet, you still don't get it!

It's like talking to a brick wall sometimes. Sorry, I can't help you anymore.

I get the policy very well , 110% Axl blind loyalty lol , ahem I mean support the current version of GNR. I don't understand why in the fuck if you DO NOT like a band go into THEIR FUCKING part of the board? Thats all I'm saying if you don't like VR why in the hell would you go to the area DESIGNATED towards them. The whole reason there is a VR section is so no issues are started else where , yet certain members continue to lurk into the VR section and provoke and antagonize. I was never asking for your help in the first place, and you haven't help me at all.

We're sorry if you see it this way.

It's clear that what we've got here is failure to communicate... It's been explained to you a million times. But one more wouldn't hurt...

We support what we believe in. Not someone who keeps on changing what they're saying any way it fits him...


We, as in the administration of this board (admin, global mods, mods), go there to moderate.

If we see something that to our knowledge is not the truth, we'll talk about it.

I hope I helped you.

so if axl left GnR, and allowed the current members to continue under the GnR name, then you wouldn't defer to whatever axl was doing and ignore the rest of the band???

i understand where this guy is coming from totally. there is certain members and mods on the board who really dont give a fuck about the band, but just axl and what he does, if GNR broke up and Axl released his solo album tomrrow, this would be a GnR board anymore, but an Axl board instead...

^Would the Axl board still have a VR section?

I see what you mean
And respectfully differ.
The current lineup

Is not a remake
But the next generation.
Take "Star Wars", again

Sir Alec Guinness
Has the classic portrayal
Of ol' Obi-wan

But in the prequels
The younger Kenobi is
Ewan McGregor.

They do not compete
But rather they are facets
Of the same key role.

Splash

/Mike

i personally never had a problem with the VR section, in all honsty i wasn't a fequent reader of the posts, but from what i can gather, it was just a whole load of people who wanted to slate VR and reduce most of the conversations there to rubble.

i thought that it was good that this board had a section dedicated to VR, as it reflected what the old gunners were up to, and kinda made the whole site seem impartial. is it sooo hard to like both bands?? it isn't for me.... :peace:

Its not unusual for even official boards to include hwta the old band members are up to...take iron maiden for example, they include how clive Burr is getting on all the time with his illness, and he hasn't been in the band for about 20+ years.

is that what it takes for a reality check, an ex band member to be seriously ill??

or would it still be "yeah fuck slash and fuck VR. Matt is just a fat dick..."

people just need to settle down and realise that these are just bands, if someone in a band offends someone in another band that you like and it becomes a major issue for you, you need to take a step back like Axl has mentioned previously.

I agree with that slightly , But Ewen wasn't playing been in a Star wars remake. He was playing a him in a prequels.

That's my point, Big T!
Current lineup's a sequel
Rather than remake.

Splash

/Mike

Oh McGann, as usual your Haikewl is absolutely delicious. Even more so is that you quote yourself as your signature-who else does that? Nobody, just the man himself. However your tinfoil is misused dudio, you let the darkness in and keep out the light. I hold out hope that one day you'll come to my side of the aisle, and use that tinfoil to keep the Rove Rays from infecting your brain even further. Come to the light man, we're here for you.

I've missed ya, buddy!
I'll fire you a PM
When I get a sec.

To stay on-topic...
Jarmo made the correct call
And VR's still here!

Splash

/Mike

...failure to communicate...

One more suggestion:

Can we get a sticky thread that only ShotgunBlues1978, Jim Bob, and Jarmo can post in... We can call it something like "The Faults of Velvet Revolver:  Talent Limits, Contradictions and Money-Making Opportunities!"

 :P

What, like you, RageNirvanaNIN and Booker wouldn't find your way over there to argue?  If it weren't for us you guys wouldn't have anything to talk about

I don't got to the GNR section and ramble on their faults , so why do you come to the VR section. We have a lot shit to talk about something called a

compact disk

( alot of new gnr fans don't know what this is , seeing as axl's has none with the new band )

interviews , tours , videos , lots of stuff. Instead you guys chose to come in and provoke shit , when you antagonize people you get arguments.

You could try. Let's see how long you'll last.  : ok:

Maybe you can start posting about how GN'R owes you an album.  :rofl:


You still don't get it. Oh my.....



/jarmo

Im being sarcastic bro' , but thats my point Jarmo , If I did shit like that on the GNR board I'd be gone in a second , but it always goes on in the VR section. Double standards.

I'm sure if I went to velvetrevolverforum.com I could talk all the shit I want about GnR in the GnR section, but would get banned in a second if I went to the VR forum and started slamming them

You still don't get it.  :rofl:

I explain and explain......




/jarmo

Shit I was a little to buzzed earlier. Agree with Dog. : ok:

Actually, there's no bashing at VRforum.com.... and it's an official board. ?So there are a few subtle differences... other than that, I'd like to see the bashings stop. ?But as long as there are immature people in the world, it's like death and taxes. ?I don't mind criticism, in fact, I encourage it at our board (http://www.rosesofvelvet.com), but when all I see is "loser fag" and "piece of shit" peppered in peoples' posts, I don't really take that as criticism. ?It's idiocy. ?There's a big difference in my books. ?I don't mind people saying "I don't like [such and such a song] because..." but when they say "that song sucks because [band member] is a [generic explicit moronic comment]," it really makes me wonder why people even bother posting such rubbish. ?I'm all about intelligent conversation and debates, but when it gets down to people spewing sewage about bands just because they want to start a fuss, well that's not so cool. ?I'd like to see the insults cut altogether. ?Unfortunately, I don't see it happening in the near future.

Jarmo, just wondering - where did all of your bitterness come from? Wasnt it you who helped set up the Velvet Revolver forum on their site? Correct me if I'm wrong and I may well be. If so I apologise...

What have Slash etc done that is such a personal affront to you that you behave in the way you do? Is it because Scott said some mean things about poor defenseless Axl or did you not get your Contraband advance copy or something?

For a GNR fan you sure have a problem with the guys that made the band. Maybe your bitter because when you set up a GNR website you didnt think that 10 years later you'd have to write about something called Bumblefoot or a guy that played on an Nsync record.

^and for a "GnR fan" you sure seem to have a problem with the guys who are actually IN the fucking band.    One could probably assume you aren't even a GnR fan anymore.  your only interest is in ex-members and nostalgia so maybe YOU sir should find a board that suits your interests.

If we are going to blow up the VR section, please let me push the button  : ok:

Not to attack anyone in particular but this thread is pretty absurd. Who cares where the VR section is? And I am a fan of VR. I am guessing it was a move done because of all the animosity on the board, altho I don't believe it is going to help any of that. But really if you think about it that's probably where all the VR information on the board should have been to begin with 5 years ago. I don't like that there is no more VR news on the front page of the site tho, I think that's kinda lame but hell whatever it's not my website.

What is odd is that a Bumble Foot Guitar sweepstakes, or a Tommy Solo album info is front page worthy.  Or maybe even an Izzy update (Izzy is not an official member of GNR).  But when Slash or Duff do something, no mention.  Even if GNR related.  Just don't see how Izzy is more important than Slash or Duff. Either you are in GNR or not.  And as far as I know, Izzy is not. 

Humm... maybe cos Izzy is friends with Axl again? hummm....


Your last paragraph was quite funny lol... Where did you get that Nsyinc part from? Never heard about it.

Richard Fortus did some work on some N'Sync Record

And if he didn't play his couple of fills the way the producers wanted him to, NSYNC would never even have done anything.

Thats the stupiest thing I read :P

But if you wanna go there...
Think of someone called Slash and duffy mcduck...playing on Michael Jackson albums :hihi:

Cool. How prestigious  :)


Well... still, Michael Jackson had a bit more reputation (at the time lol)

Yes, his a great artist...just pointing it out I thought :P

Couldn't have said it better myself man!

Don't forget Blackstreet, Paulina Rubio, and American Idol's own Daughtry

And Christina Aguilera. Oh no! Sorry... that wasn?t Slash.  :no:

What surprises me is the absurdity of your comment. Why the fuck wouldn't it be front page worthy ? One is GN'R guitarist, the other one is GN'R bass player. And this is ... a GN'R site, right.

This stupid VR section should be gone, pure and simple. Hell, I'd be happy to press the button before Destry.

I absolutely agree with NicoRouke - that section provides the main source of upsets/fights on this board.

More attention should be given to current GN'R members so we could get to know them better.

Too bad that "Beautiful" wasn't written by her, it's a cover.

Snap...

Well said SB1978 :yes:

And at that time, Slash was already a fucking "legend". Isn't that what we call selling your soul ?

Sorry if Richard had to make a living, like all musicians before hiting the big time. All musicians don't become rich and famous like Slash. Some have to do some works in order to get fucking paid.

Lol and what does it have to do with anything?

Uhm...

If I'm not mistaken, you were taking a swing at Richard Fortus and Robin Finck because they play "Beautiful" during their solo.

And my point was that the song wasn't written by Christina Aguilera.

no, but he's friends with Axl. that's what counts.

and CSS, Richard Fortus have played with Aguilera. dunno if it was for touring or for albums, but that's what Ines is referring to.

if he has, good for him.  She has such a great voice and I'm sure it was a great gig for him.   You gotta remember he is like 40 years old and GnR is the biggest thing he's ever been in, and I truly think GnR is where he belongs.   He's been a musican for many many years and its how he's made his living.    Can't knock someone for making a living.   I get pissed when people give me shit on what I do for a living.

exactly. that was my point  ;)

He did?

My bad, I didn't know that.

I'm sorry, Ines.

no problem  : ok:  this is just a forum anyway... no need to get angry at each other for stupid things  :)

Exactly.

I only posted because I thought you were taking a swing at Richard and Robin.

And what difference does it make if you play with pop stars? I mean, what Slash did was pretty damn good.

Well... As I said, I didn't know about Aguilera - but I knew about N'Sync and Iglesias.

The difference is that one of them made it for a living as a studio guitar player and the other one was cashing out his GN'R fame with "artists" like Paulina Rubio, Elan, Daughtry etc. etc...

And don't tell me Slash needs money as well when Steven Adler can live only on the AFD sales...

I dont see problems at all... the thing is... the way this forum has turned up... you either end up in one side, defending it and mocking the other... well... I wish it could end but... you know lol guess it never will  :-\

I won't, believe me.

I'm just saying that the songs were great.

Actually I heard someplace I believe that 4tus and some buddys wrote it or something stupid like that. He's got writing credits I believe on it. I duno...

Beautiful was written by Linda Perry but originally sung by Christina Aguilera.


OK, I'm done.

Yeah.? Linda Perry is the only name credited on the music sheets.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=34286.0

See how when current members do something as simple as studio session work its great and good but when ex members do it oh its them cashing in on their GNR fame. I think all studio work by both Fortus and Slash is pretty cool , but I'm sorry Nysnc thats sort of...well gay.

See how you refuse to see the difference just cause you love Slash too much?

Having a different OPINION and not seeing the difference are not the same. Slash does session work just to do it , i doubt he needs money. I've always thought NSYNC was gay , before I knew fortus even did work with them. Jimmy Page did loads of session work , but i guess he was cashing in on his zeppelin fame. I also heard Axl will be on Seb's new album , cashing in on GNR fame right?

This is a joke, right?

It's either money or a favour to the record company for Slash... He doesn't do session work just to do it...

Doing session work with Paulina Rubio, Elan, Blackstreet or Daughtry is not "gay" but Nsync is "gay"?

How many of Page's session works do you think are "gay"? Is Sebastian Bach "gay"?

Please... Don't insult our intelligence...

Yea because Slash is always in it for the money? hahahah He doesn't do session just to do it? How do you know? Actually yes I think NSYNC where a gay band. Daughtry can at least sing decently , Elan is decent , Rubio is fucking hot hahahahaha. I just dont see why Fortus is ok , but Slash is just in it for the money and blah blah blah.

Nope, he's not ALWAYS in it for the money, I'm not talking about a session with Billy Idol or Paul Rodgers here.

The difference is that when Fortus did the work on the Nsync record, you only knew Nsync. The reason is that Fortus was just a payed musician. That is not "gay". That is called a job. People work for money.

If he did the Nsync thing today, I'd call it gay as well. Cause he is a Guns N' Roses member.

But being Slash and "contributing" for such "artists" as Elan (decent? did you listen to the rest of her album? Or the rest of the song, besides Slash's solo?), Paulina Rubio (Hot? Lots think Britney Spears was hot as well, maybe he'll do some sessions with her too) and Daughtry (American Idol... No need to go further) is "gay".

Cause you're a fuckin legend from your work with GN'R.

And you know people will buy the damn record just cause you play in it. That's why you do it for money (cashing out fame) or as a favour to the record company...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2cSgdZegDM

The only artist that I don't like at all of the bunch is Paulina Rubio, and I don't understand why he did that. The Elan song (in addition to the two others I've heard from her album) was good in my opinion. The Blackstreet song was good as far as that type of music goes. While I haven't heard Daughtry's album, I've heard him sing, and if the record label hasn't completely castrated him, he has an amazing voice and with the right songs sounds amazing. I have no problem with that.

The following not directed at AG, but just thrown in the air for something to think about:

Why shouldn't an artist be allowed to work for whoever he wants? Why shouldn't an artist be allowed to do a favor for the record company if they ask for one? Why are those things selling out? How does that make a guy at a VR concert enjoy Slash's solos or riffs any less than if he hadn't performed on a song that deviates from the stuff he generally does. Why is working with N'Sync gay if it's a job and you get paid for it? Maybe his ego doesn't shatter from doing something that isn't concidered by a bunch of no face 'fans' as being 'cool' and 'rock' or whateverthefuck category you feel like pushing them into. Again, I feel like there's something I'm not getting 'cause I don't understand why the guitarists should be compared like it's a competition. The one can never be the other. For so many reasons. So why even try and make your own, and everyone else's life more difficult because of something as fucking trivial as this?

Again.. This is not an attack on anyone in particular.. Just an observation and a bunch of questions that I would like someone answer me.

To answer your second question: "Why shouldn't an artist be allowed to do a favour for a record company if they ask for one?"

Let's take the words "record company" - a record company is a money making business. In asking an artist for a favour, depending on what it may be, the company may be exploting the artist for their own greedy needs. ARTIST EXPLOITATION.

On the other hand, the artist and record company may be on good terms. In accepting the offer, the artist may indeed see it as a favour or the artist may have his/her own agenda such as publicity, money or some aother reward. SELL OUT.

That being said, let's look at the word "artist". True artists by nature tend to be creative, sensitive souls, often with a message to tell. Many artists would rather starve than compromise their talent. In the case of the "true artist", the bohemain, if you like, if he or she decides to do a favour for a record company it tends to be FROM THE HEART.

Am I to interpret this in the way that since Slash is doing work (and I really do believe that the correct and key word here is work) to a record company as a guitarplayer for money, he is selling out? My question is that if a guitarist such as Slash or Richard as guitarists who if not directly, but at least indirectly are under a contract from a money making business (in this case the record label), do some _work_ outside their primary projects (bands where they act as artists), are they selling out or is there a reason why they couldn't be seen as doing work just like every one else who contributes to the society in their own field of expertiese?

I don't think that the issue is clearly that black and white.

Yes, work is work, that may be one motivating factor.

Money can also be very motivating. This is indeed an ethical issue. Ethical issues are never black and white.

We know that Slash is a muliti-millionaire. We know that some young people see Slash as a role model. He has the power to influence the young. In this world where greed often reigns supreme, what do we want the next generation of artists to learn about money?

Two lecturers at uni came up with a model to help students when discussing ethical issues. It is called the CURF model.


C is for circumstances.

You must take the circumstances particular to the situation into account.

U is for the Utilitarian principal.

When taking into account the circumstances you have to anticiapte the consequences. Wiil the action bring more harm than good? Who will the action hurt the most? You must also have empathy for the situation.

R is for Reasoning.

Think about the situation rationally. Dialogue with people (as we are)! Call it a Community of Inquiry.

F is for facts.

It is important that the facts and consequences are put "straight".



As an artist myself, I can discuss this issue with empathy. I can act, sing and dance. I have worked professionally. I could most certainly use my skills to make easy money as an 'exotic dancer', for example, but I won't.....

(Though I did do singing telegrams for a while there........shhhhh.....)

Not a very popular model from the results google (and google scholar) gave me.. I found no references to any published articles what so ever.. What UNI, and when? Smells a bit like bullshit.

But ok. Lets test this model.

One interpretation in this case of the usage of the model could be as follows:

Circumstances: Slash is a guitarist in a band. Doesn't need the publicity, likes the cash in it. Propably feels no way or the other about the song in question. The artist that is doing the song likes the fact that bringing Slash in helps him/her get some more publicity for her song, and maybe getting some substance to the song. The record company likes the increased sales.

Utilitarian principal:
   Harm: The world has another pretty irrelevant song not to listen to. Both of the young fans that are still influenced by the actual actions and not the music itself of an artist read that he's done something for money (almost as bad as some sportsmen endorsing products they sometimes have no intention of using). I relly don't see the harm here. His work with artists like this has gotten very little publicity when compared to the publicity his primary projects have had. If you're buying a cd just because it has Slash on one track and you know to look for that, it's propable that you know what kind of a track it is, or can look for a sample before buying it.
  Good: Slash gets paid for what he did, record company gets a few more records sold, the artist gets the little solo to the song and a bit more cash from the few more albums sold. Nothing good in a creative sense though.

Reasoning: I honestly don't understand what this means... Talking to other people about what they think the utilitarian principles, facts and circumstanses are?

Facts: I think the facts are pretty much there in the first two... 


I'm propably not using the model right, but I don't see where the problem is. He has a bad influence on the next generation's concept of money? Really? You don't think that's a bit of a stretch and that there might be other things that may have a bit more concrete effect on younger people? Big corporations making more profit at the expense of the normal worker just off the top of my head.

The CURF model was devised by Dr Sue Knight and Carolyn Collins (2000) and is part of an unfinished thesis. They are lecturers at the University of South Australia, Magill. I have permission from Dr Knight to teach the model.

You seem to be ignoring an aspect of the circumstances that I raised in my previous post - Slash is a multi-millionaire.
But yes, you have pinpointed that the record company would probably like the increased sales and yes, Slash must like the money. Fair enough. It depends what value you place on money over art and integrity. One must also consider certain truths about money being a corruptor.

The harm factor: some artists consider that it is not right to compromise one's ideals and talents just for money. Real artists must struggle for their art (I know it sounds corny). Do we tell the next young talented female that it is ok, to do nude work, for example, beacause it will help her get more work. That road often leads to ruin.

The reasoning factor is just that. As this is not a clear cut issue, it is important to share your ideas with other people. Sound them out. Other people may bring another facet to the argument. A reasonable discussion certainly is not one where people use the terms 'that's bullshit' or 'how stupid' for example. If that happened in my classroom, I would ask the student to leave.

You raise the point of big corporations making money at the expense of the normal worker - when discussing facts therefore, one must fully understand the impacts/facts to do with large corporations and worker exploitation......


Emapthy is vital when using the CURF model. Are you saying it's ok for big companies to make money off normal workers even if it can lead to exploitation of that worker? For me, in the world of show business, artists are exploited a little too often and easily for my liking.

I guess in the end, the question is - would you do it?
You can only answer for your own actions.

Ok...

I don't think it's about what value _I_ place on money and artistic integrity. It's about where _he_ does, and how does he see the piece he's doing work on. If he looks it as just work and doesn't even try to put it off as his finest art. Just says like in the case of Chris Daughtry that it was no biggie, just done as a favor to the record company. Who's to say what the correct amount of money one must have after it becomes forbidden to do anything just for work and the money in it.

No we propably don't go telling next young talented females to go do nude work.. But I really don't think that's comparable. You're making comparisons between a young person and a guy who's seen the industry, is very capable of doing his own decisions. And I really don't think it's compromising one's ideals if the piece the guest is working on isn't even his. It's just an ordered piece of work. Surely some people think that artist should only do art, and not just work for the money. But again. I don't think it's a harm factor. Nothing gets taken away from the purists who'd rather eat dogshit than work just for the sake of getting money. But again I think in this case Slash for example is in a place where he can pretty much do whatever he wants. He doesn't have to reach a certain status by pleasing the public or any of that.

I'm not saying it's ok for them to do that. I was saying that those are more legitimate problems (when talking about the value of money and the ethics behind it) than an artistic integrity over one solo which is put on a song by a guy who can choose the people he works with from pretty much anyone. But let's not get into that example as that's beside the point. But again I do feel that all the facts can be found in the circumstanses and the good/harm categories if covered well. But I'm not the maker of the model so I don't get to decide what's relevant to it.

Yes, and you only answer to yourself.

Because people are brainwashed by the way the media choose to portray the bands :P

I know I wouldn't work on a tobaco-fabric, regardles of the money...some feel that way about art.
Some places they guard art (paintings etc) with armored guards, how fanatic is that...it's a little the same idea's when artists lend out their talents.

Fortus is/was guitarist for hire or an professional that worked within his own parameters of his intergrity. Then peeps says they're opinions.

Ok, Skeba good discussion. Your reasoning is relevant, you provide explanation to make your opinion understandable, and your reasons for your opinion now sound more credible....(don't take that the wrong way)!

Just some minor points -

Lets go back to your original question: Why shouldn't an artist be allowed to do a favour for a record company if they ask for one?

In attempting to answer the question I considered the obvious money aspect that is pertinent to the situation. In applying empathy to the situation - one must put oneself in the other's shoes - so a consideration of what value I place on money is valid here, if it helps one understand the circumstances better.

Also, in considering these circumstances, we must apply what we honestly know about Slash's behaviour - here, we need not attach any value judgement to his behaviour.......just the facts.

A way to cross check ones reasoning when using the CURF model is to apply that reasoning to a similar situation and see if it still fits. If it doesn't, well then more discussion of the 'grey areas' is needed....

With the utilitarian principle - the right action is the one which brings about the greatest balance of good over harm in the group as whole. There is no room for fence sitting here, it is either right or wrong.

And yes, in the end, ?you can only answer for yourself. A big aspect of the Reasoning part of the model is the ability to think for oneself.

When teaching this model in the classroom, we teach students the thinking skills involved in the CURF model -
consider the circumstances, anticipate the consequences, show empathy, get the facts straight..........
so that eventually students are capable of thinking for themselves.

This discussion on the Velvet Revolver section sure has gotten intellectual.