Title: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: polluxlm on August 06, 2007, 10:23:45 AM He was the pin-up boy of Bush's War on Terror. But the story of Pat Tillman's heroic death soon started to unravel. Today comes the most astonishing claim of all - that he was assassinated by his own side
Pat Tillman died a hero's death. At least, that's what America was told when this former football star and steel-jawed poster boy for the War on Terror, returned home in a box. Here was a soldier who had paid the ultimate price for defending his fellow Army Rangers from an enemy ambush in the badlands of Afghanistan. President Bush awarded him a posthumous Silver Star and made speeches in his honour. Such was the mood of public mourning that his funeral service was broadcast on national television. In death, he was promoted to Corporal. More than ever, the huge, slab-sided face below the crisply trimmed beret became the face of American patriotism. But that was never the true story. One month after the fateful day in April 2004, when the 27-year-old died in a ravine on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan where Osama Bin Laden hid with Al-Qaeda, it was officially acknowledged that Tillman had not been killed by the Taliban at all. Instead, he had been cut down by his own side, a victim of "friendly fire". This was a revelation that triggered outrage. Spearheaded by Tillman's devastated mother Mary and father Pat "senior", a swelling tide of protesters demanded to know whether the Pentagon and the White House had deliberately played Tillman's death for propaganda value to boost support for the war. Plainly there were lies and cover-ups. Who knew what and when? Now comes a new and even darker possibility. A growing body of evidence suggests that Tillman died neither at the hands of his nation's enemy nor in the tragic, accidental confusion of "friendly fire"; rather he was shot with three bullets in tight formation in the forehead at very close range. If so, this is evidence of murder. Only now are the original battlefield reports emerging and they clearly suggest that his death was not a mistake, just as his mother - who has inevitably been trying to make sense of the inconsistent reports surrounding the loss of her son - has long suggested. But could Pat Tillman really have been assassinated? And if so, why? The dark shadow of "black ops" has fallen over the Tillman story, and it reaches all the way to the White House. Conspiracy theories are multiplying. Preposterous though it may seem, there is a growing view that Pat Tillman was targeted by American special forces because he was about to become an embarrassment. New evidence shows that he was turning out to be a very troubled "hero", a poster boy for the Army and the War on Terror who may have been about to speak out against the war he had come to symbolise. Letters home and memories of those who knew him in Iraq suggest that after his initial enthusiasm, he had decided that Iraq was not just a quagmire but an "illegal" war. Tillman had been heard arguing bitterly against the Iraq war and urging his fellow soldiers to vote for Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry in 2004. He had also been using his celebrity to contact the best-selling anti-war intellectual Noam Chomsky, and they were due to meet as soon as Tillman returned from Afghanistan. Astonishingly, long-hidden details of his death support the murder theory: medical evidence never did match up with the scenario of friendly fire; those three bullets from an M16 combat rifle could not have been fired from farther than ten yards; there were special forces snipers in the group immediately behind Tillman's platoon. "The nation has been deceived," says Mary Tillman. "It's now about justice for Pat and justice for the other soldiers." After three years of grief and anger - three years during which the national mood has changed from gung-ho support to rejection of the Bush wars and an atmosphere of dark suspicion over every White House motive - questions over the Tillman story are now convulsing America. Just this week, the Army produced its seventh report into the affair to try to wipe away the stain of Pat Tillman's death. There is no mention of assassination: the report adheres strictly to the friendly fire line. But it apportions blame for the initial confusion over how Tillman died - enabling the White House and Pentagon to portray him as an all-American hero - on Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, who was in charge of the special forces in Afghanistan that included Tillman's Rangers. According to the report, the General had failed to notify both the Tillman family and senior officials of inquiries into the possibility of friendly fire. He then lied to two sets of investigators about the stage at which he knew that American bullets had killed him. This was a "failure of leadership". The report insists there was no cover-up and that the death was a battlefield accident, followed by a misunderstanding. Kensinger faces post-retirement demotion by one star and a cut in his pension from $9,500 a month to $8,500. In Washington, Army Secretary Pete Geren unveiled the report, saying: "General Kensinger was the captain of that ship and his ship ran aground." He added that he expected this report to be the last. There is little chance of that. Mary Tillman, who has long suggested her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said the report was a farce - "a complete donkey show". And Senator Barbara Boxer, a Democrat, added: "We don't know the full story about the way the Pentagon and (the White House) managed this tragedy. "In my view, the Army should reconsider today's announcement and move forward with harsher punishment." Only a day after the Army report, the Congressional Committee on Oversight and Government Reform convened an inquiry titled The Tillman Fratricide: What The Leadership Of The Defence Department Knew. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: polluxlm on August 06, 2007, 10:24:06 AM Chaired by another Californian Democrat with an eye on next year's elections, Henry Waxman, it is calling a slew of top brass and key Pentagon officials to the witness stand.
These include former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who was sacked by Bush when the Iraq war turned sour for the voters. "How high up did this go?" asks Waxman. In other words, did Bush ignore the truth on Tillman to use him for votes? Or did Pentagon officials, White House staff or election strategists keep the truth from him? The answer to that might be momentous. But this has all been pushed aside by the revelations prised from records by national news agency the Associated Press (AP). Using the Freedom of Information Act - American law since the Watergate scandal - they went to court in San Francisco and sued for the right to look at the Pentagon records on the Tillman affair. They were rewarded with 2,300 pages of documents, and what they contained raised extraordinary inconsistencies when put alongside the official versions of events. The first mystery surrounds the nature of the wounds he sustained. "The medical evidence did not match-up with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body told the first group of Army investigators. Several doctors, their names blacked out in the reports, said that the bullets were so close together that Tillman must have been shot by an M16 combat rifle - a highpowered repeat machine gun - fired from no more than ten yards. But soldiers have said their experience with an M16 on a three-shot burst suggests the killer was even closer. To put three rounds into a man's forehead, they would need to be no more than ten feet away. The Army doctors told the investigators that these wounds suggested murder and urged them to launch a criminal investigation. The documents record that another doctor who conducted the Tillman autopsy was similarly so suspicious that he told investigators he had taken the unusual step of contacting the Human Resources Command which deals with personnel matters. He was rebuffed. He then contacted an officer in the Army's Criminal Investigation Division (CID) to suggest he open a criminal case. "He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said 'no'," the doctor testified. The newly uncovered papers then reveal, however, that as the controversy grew, the Pentagon did go back to check on the possibility of a fratricidal murder. There is a record of investigators talking to then-Cpt. Richard Scott, who was in charge of the first, local army review. "Have you, at any time since this incident on April 22, 2004, ever received any information or even rumour that Cpl Tillman was killed by anyone within his own unit intentionally?" they asked. Scott replied he was sure the killing was accidental, though he must have been aware of the rumours that Tillman had been murdered. Was Tillman disliked? Was anyone jealous of his celebrity? Was he - considered arrogant? His brothersinarms all insisted that Tillman was admired, respected and liked. But there are more bombshells from the pages released to AP. First, there was no evidence of any incoming fire from the enemy, and no sign of damage to any man or equipment from enemy fire. Yet, the official story has always been that the tragedy started with the breakdown of a personnel carrier as Tillman's unit went into the ravine on an early evening seek-anddestroy patrol. Tillman and his squad were ordered to continue on foot and were then ambushed; and the squad from a second vehicle following behind mistook them for the enemy ambushers. If there is no evidence of an enemy ambush, how did the shooting start? Is it coincidence that after more than three years it has been discovered that there were never-before-mentioned US snipers in the second group? Could there have been a secret sniper on a mission to Afghanistan to assassinate the Army's poster boy? Or perhaps three assassins, because as a general rule snipers fire in single shots, from specially tuned rifles, rather than in bursts of three? Could the suggestion that Tillman was going to become a voice for the anti-war movement be why his mother says that a journal he'd kept since was 16 has gone missing? It disappeared, along with most of his possessions, two days after he died. "It's time to really ask who ordered the assassination of Pat Tillman," wrote blogger Josh Swiller on The Huffington Post, a mainstream website, sparking off a series of conspiracy theories. If that is going too far, it is at least time for the Army, the Pentagon and the White House to come clean on the Tillman tragedy. In these troubled times, the last thing America and its allies need is such suspicion, rumour and intrigue. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=473037&in_page_id=1770 Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: polluxlm on August 06, 2007, 10:24:38 AM It's starting to fall apart for real now.
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: 2NaFish on August 06, 2007, 11:25:52 AM i believe the magic friendly-fire bullet theory. one bullet from an assasin just got out of hand....
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: polluxlm on August 06, 2007, 11:47:52 AM i believe the magic friendly-fire bullet theory. one bullet from an assasin just got out of hand.... Haha. I can picture it right now. How about we blame it on a magic bullett or something? We've already used that one, sir. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Loaded NightraiN on August 06, 2007, 04:14:59 PM i believe the magic friendly-fire bullet theory. one bullet from an assasin just got out of hand.... Haha. I can picture it right now. How about we blame it on a magic bullett or something? We've already used that one, sir. :rofl: :rofl: Yes.. Spot on, spot on Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Axl4Prez2004 on August 06, 2007, 10:24:38 PM Honestly, I was ready to type an angry response to this post without reading the articles because it sounded just absolutely ridiculous at first...then I read the articles. Wow. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I've already discounted the conspiracy theorists surrounding 9/11 and U.S. involvement in that...but damn, I didn't realize how strongly anti-war Pat Tillman was. I'm actually very glad to hear that news. R.I.P. Pat Tillman...a real hero.
:peace: Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 06, 2007, 10:48:48 PM What a bunch of bullshit.? Some of you are so out there, I'm frightened by the fact you have a right to vote.? Pat Tillman was not asassinated.? He's not the only one against the war, and to assume the Army Rangers would shoot and murder one of their own over political disagreements is just insulting.? You are so fucking moronic Polluxlm and are so damn gullible it is truly pathetic.? Have you ever heard of a conspiracy or cover-up you didn't immediately buy?
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: SLCPUNK on August 06, 2007, 10:57:02 PM He's not the only one against the war, and to assume the Army Rangers would shoot and murder one of their own over political disagreements is just insulting. I bet you would, if you thought you could get away with it. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 06, 2007, 11:18:50 PM You know nothing about me which makes your statement that much more dangerous.? You throw insults at people you don't even know and fabricate stories to build yourself up.? When you can't find someone to think something up for you to repeat, you resort to character assasination.? Real class.
Title: On the contrary, I am insulting somebody I know quite well. Post by: SLCPUNK on August 07, 2007, 01:08:15 AM You know nothing about me which makes your statement that much more dangerous. You throw insults at people you don't even know and fabricate stories to build yourself up. When you can't find someone to think something up for you to repeat, you resort to character assasination. Real class. I know you well enough to bet you have infospace saved under your favorites list... Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: polluxlm on August 07, 2007, 01:37:52 AM What a bunch of bullshit.? Some of you are so out there, I'm frightened by the fact you have a right to vote.? Pat Tillman was not asassinated. Let's wait a minute here. Did you read the article or is this just you lashing out in emotional anger? If it's the latter, shut the fuck up. Quote He's not the only one against the war He is one of the few with Chomsky waiting on the other end. Quote , and to assume the Army Rangers would shoot and murder one of their own over political disagreements is just insulting. Political disagreements? We're talking orders here, and they're there to be obeyed. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 07, 2007, 10:17:24 AM You know nothing about the military. You don't follow illegal orders and no one would issue that order to begin with. Since you mentioned Chomsky, I thought I'd post an interview with the man himself where he states 9/11 conspiracies are bullshit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGd0t8v-d4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM Chomsky believes in no conspiracy so it's very likely Tillman didn't share your kool-aid either. And let's be honest, there is no proof that Tillman was anti-war. One letter to NBC, CNN, FOX etc. from him would have made national headlines - the same effect as meeting Chomsky. You choose to believe what you want, regardless of total lack of evidence or more commonly, evidence in the complete opposite direction. Title: Re: On the contrary, I am insulting somebody I know quite well. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 07, 2007, 10:17:47 AM I know you well enough to bet you have infospace saved under your favorites list... I have no idea what that is. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: supaplex on August 07, 2007, 10:38:26 AM You don't follow illegal orders and no one would issue that order to begin with. you would be amazed my friend.would you like me to tell you a story about soldiers shooting innocent people just because they were on a street? soldiers that followed orders? Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 07, 2007, 10:45:16 AM You don't follow illegal orders and no one would issue that order to begin with. you would be amazed my friend.would you like me to tell you a story about soldiers shooting innocent people just because they were on a street? soldiers that followed orders? Is this something you witnessed first hand or 3rd party information? Cause I've seen all the independent podcats where someone who's never spent a day in unform interviews some 20 year old reservists who went on one combat mission. I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. Every shooting that occurs in Iraq must be documented and is then followed up by a CID investigation. In case you haven't been watching the news, soldiers are being convicted for every infraction of the rules that is found. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: The Dog on August 07, 2007, 12:17:01 PM And let's be honest, there is no proof that Tillman was anti-war. Thats BULLSHIT. Just ask his brother.... (do a search for it) Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: sandman on August 07, 2007, 01:52:02 PM And let's be honest, there is no proof that Tillman was anti-war.? Thats BULLSHIT.? Just ask his brother.... (do a search for it) you mean against the IRAQ war? or the afghan war (where he died)? or war in general? i read his piece last year which was very well written. he pointed things out without nasty name-calling, and i repsect him for that. here it is... After Pat's Birthday By KEVIN TILLMAN It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice... until we get out. Much has happened since we handed over our voice: Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that. Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is. Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the military. Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat. Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes. Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground. Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started. Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated. Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated. Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated. Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated. Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe. Somehow torture is tolerated. Somehow lying is tolerated. Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense. Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world. Somehow a narrative is more important than reality. Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is. Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world. Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance. Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country. Somehow this is tolerated. Somehow nobody is accountable for this. In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites. Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday. Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman, Kevin Tillman Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: The Dog on August 07, 2007, 02:08:15 PM I was referring to the Iraq war, which I think its safe to say Pat Tillman was also against. Of course he wasn't "anti-war" - the guy volunteered to fight for crying out loud!
Yes, there are no name calling, but its a VERY scathing account of the current admin and of the war. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: supaplex on August 07, 2007, 02:12:47 PM You don't follow illegal orders and no one would issue that order to begin with. you would be amazed my friend.would you like me to tell you a story about soldiers shooting innocent people just because they were on a street? soldiers that followed orders? Is this something you witnessed first hand or 3rd party information? Cause I've seen all the independent podcats where someone who's never spent a day in unform interviews some 20 year old reservists who went on one combat mission. I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. Every shooting that occurs in Iraq must be documented and is then followed up by a CID investigation. In case you haven't been watching the news, soldiers are being convicted for every infraction of the rules that is found. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Bodhi on August 07, 2007, 02:14:06 PM Polluxlm....next time try to hide your erection when you have news regarding America lying.....
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 07, 2007, 05:47:25 PM You don't follow illegal orders and no one would issue that order to begin with. you would be amazed my friend.would you like me to tell you a story about soldiers shooting innocent people just because they were on a street? soldiers that followed orders? Is this something you witnessed first hand or 3rd party information?? Cause I've seen all the independent podcats where someone who's never spent a day in unform interviews some 20 year old reservists who went on one combat mission.? I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed.? Every shooting that occurs in Iraq must be documented and is then followed up by a CID investigation.? In case you haven't been watching the news, soldiers are being convicted for every infraction of the rules that is found. He's not an American soldier. With all do respect, the Armies of ex-Soviet countries or Latin America (where ever you're from) don't compare with the United States military. The US Military is the most well-trained and equipped military in the world. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: The Dog on August 07, 2007, 05:49:15 PM Is the government not telling us the whole story....Yes. Was Tillman assassinated by his own government? Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Axl4Prez2004 on August 07, 2007, 06:29:25 PM Is the government not telling us the whole story....Yes. Was Tillman assassinated by his own government? Absolutely not. I agree with Lil Butters on this one. Like I said before, I'm very impressed with Pat Tillman. He was brave enough to give up millions of dollars in professional football and risk his life defending this great country.....and I'm even more impressed with his realization that our actions in Iraq were plain wrong. btw, Dr. Cox, great quote,"Polluxlm....next time try to hide your erection when you have news regarding America lying....." Polluxlm, that is pretty funny. :) Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Dr. Blutarsky on August 07, 2007, 07:09:04 PM Polluxlm....next time try to hide your erection when you have news regarding America lying..... Yeah, I second that. To say he was assassinated conveys that he was taken out on purpose. It was friendly fire - ACCIDENTAL. I do agree however how the military tried to cover up it was friendly fire and not from enemy forces was bullshit. The military handled that horribly - Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 07, 2007, 07:18:04 PM Polluxlm....next time try to hide your erection when you have news regarding America lying..... Yeah, I second that. To say he was assassinated conveys that he was taken out on purpose. It was friendly fire - ACCIDENTAL. I do agree however how the military tried to cover up it was friendly fire and not from enemy forces was bullshit. The military handled that horribly - And a General is going to lose a star over it - proof that there isn't some grand conspiracy. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Axl4Prez2004 on August 07, 2007, 08:31:58 PM Like I said before, I don't believe in some crazy assassination conspiracy. The general will take the fall, but from what's reported, it aint that big a loss for him. I'm sure he looked at his choices and decided hmm, 1 star and $1000/month less in my retirement, or I might get away with making it look like a fuck-up didn't occur. Unfortunately, friendly fire accidents happen. I'm sure the U.S. soldier that got him feels terrible.
With a high-profile guy like Tillman, I am sure he was put through the ringer upon enlistment in terms of questions, etc. I have to believe the military knew his feelings on Iraq and that probably played a part in his serving in Afghanistan and not Iraq. If I were drafted and given orders to fight in Iraq, personally, I would not. Afghanistan yes. I'd want to hunt Bin Laden down and take him out myself...but Iraq, no, it's disgusting what we (my country) has done. :-[ Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: fuckin crazy on August 07, 2007, 08:39:49 PM Inside the Iraq fragging incident
Retired colonel Jacobs describes investigation and risk for more incidents MSNBC Updated: 3:40 p.m. ET June 17, 2005 For the first time since Vietnam, the term "fragging" is in the news with military officials currently investigating whether revenge was a factor in the murder of two National Guard officers in Iraq Sgt. Alberto Martinez of the New York National Guard is accused of killing his two superior officers after reportedly being disciplined by one of them and is believed to be the first soldier in Iraq to face such charges. MSNBC military analyst and retired Army Col. Jack Jacobs joined MSNBC's Amy Robach on Friday to discuss the charges and whether there is a danger of fragging becoming a growing trend. MORE (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8257256/) Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 07, 2007, 08:44:12 PM The article says it's an isolated incident. There are bad apples and evil people in all occupations and walks of life.
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: The Dog on August 07, 2007, 10:17:38 PM The article says it's an isolated incident. There are bad apples and evil people in all occupations and walks of life. yeah but the fact it happened should raise a randall flagg Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: SLCPUNK on August 07, 2007, 10:25:40 PM yeah but the fact it happened should raise a randall flagg Ewwww.....ahhh. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Dr. Blutarsky on August 08, 2007, 12:28:07 AM Seen that name around here before - who the fuck is Randall Flagg?
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 08, 2007, 02:30:14 AM Seen that name around here before - who the fuck is Randall Flagg? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Flagg Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: SLCPUNK on August 08, 2007, 03:14:55 AM I think the question really is: Who cares?
Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: supaplex on August 08, 2007, 04:45:19 AM You don't follow illegal orders and no one would issue that order to begin with. you would be amazed my friend.would you like me to tell you a story about soldiers shooting innocent people just because they were on a street? soldiers that followed orders? Is this something you witnessed first hand or 3rd party information? Cause I've seen all the independent podcats where someone who's never spent a day in unform interviews some 20 year old reservists who went on one combat mission. I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. Every shooting that occurs in Iraq must be documented and is then followed up by a CID investigation. In case you haven't been watching the news, soldiers are being convicted for every infraction of the rules that is found. He's not an American soldier. With all do respect, the Armies of ex-Soviet countries or Latin America (where ever you're from) don't compare with the United States military. The US Military is the most well-trained and equipped military in the world. i'll say only one thing: orders are orders no matter which country you're in and there will always be soldiers to obey blindly and execute them no matter what those orders are. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: fuckin crazy on August 08, 2007, 07:27:54 AM if you are one of those americans who think your country is the best there is and your country is perfect i won't bother discussing anymore. i'll say only one thing: orders are orders no matter which country you're in and there will always be soldiers to obey blindly and execute them no matter what those orders are. Might I add ... hence, Abu Ghraib Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Juanjay on August 08, 2007, 09:46:56 AM You know nothing about me which makes your statement that much more dangerous. You throw insults at people you don't even know and fabricate stories to build yourself up. When you can't find someone to think something up for you to repeat, you resort to character assasination. Real class. Not to start a flame war but: You are so fucking moronic Polluxlm and are so damn gullible it is truly pathetic. that could be considered character assassination. As for the real story its possible, but unlikely that it was an assassination. But he could've been killed by one of his brothers in arms, being a vet and having been attached to SOC units before I know that there are a lot of fights, arguments, disagreements amongst the people in the units. Don't think it would resort to murder but given a high stress environment such as Afghanistan it could've happened. I believe it was friendly fire personally, but until the Army stops with the cover up and lets the after action reports out no one will know the truth except those soldiers that were there. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 08, 2007, 12:50:34 PM if you are one of those americans who think your country is the best there is and your country is perfect i won't bother discussing anymore. i'll say only one thing: orders are orders no matter which country you're in and there will always be soldiers to obey blindly and execute them no matter what those orders are. I don't think America is better than every country or that our soldiers are the most disciplined. In fact that is part of my point, US Soldiers are no where near as obedient as soldiers in many other, poorer countries (which I think is a good thing). US Soldiers would never committ the acts you decribed against their own people. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it, but the US military is far better trained and equipped than your own; that is the luxury of our defense budget. US Soldiers follow(99% of the time) the orders that are right. Now I'm not saying that what is right is always in accordance with the law (and that works both ways), but as a group they certainly don't follow orders that are openly acknowledged as heinous crimes. No soldier would follow an order to rape and murder a woman. Do these events happen, unfortunately yes, but they are few and far between and never condoned or tolerated by the military. Just look at those recent American soldiers caught or the Marines last year. Maybe you get offended by this, but the US Army is alot more respectful and considerate than the Armies of 3rd world countries. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 08, 2007, 04:11:17 PM Your study involved normal people whom have never undergone military training. I'm simply stating that the probability of US Soldiers acting out on these orders is extremely small. There are fucked up people just looking for an oppurtunity to bring harm to others and of course some of these people exist in the military. I'm saying that the US Military wouldn't behave the same way as former Soviet Bloc and Latin American countries.
I had the oppurtunity a few months back to train with some foreign officers. The majority of the were from the middle East (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Lebanon) and their beliefs and practices were much more different. They had no objection to shooting and threatening "civilians" if they could gain valuable information. Now while I certainly understand putting a gun to a suspected terrorists head, I know that it is against US policy and I would be punished if I did such an act. How many other countries would allow enemy combatants to shoot at the from a Mosque and do nothing out of respect for rules of war? I can only think of a few off the top of my head and they all are in Western Europe. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: 2NaFish on August 09, 2007, 05:03:58 AM Your study involved normal people whom have never undergone military training. . from studying psychology at university i can tell you that soldiers are more conditioned to be submissive than normal people. i'm not saying this guy was murdered intentionally, but to say that soldiers don't follow orders that are illegal/immoral is just plain wrong. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: Juanjay on August 09, 2007, 02:59:09 PM Your study involved normal people whom have never undergone military training. . from studying psychology at university i can tell you that soldiers are more conditioned to be submissive than normal people. i'm not saying this guy was murdered intentionally, but to say that soldiers don't follow orders that are illegal/immoral is just plain wrong. well being a vet and being SOF I can say we were also trained to NOT follow illegal and immoral orders. some soldiers do follow those orders, no one said they don't. but its just like society, you have scum bags in all walks of life. the only people that know what happened to Tillman were there when it happened. maybe he was murdered, maybe he wasn't. but if it was an order to kill him that wouldn't fly. the shit storm would be a lot worse than it is now. who's to stop other people in the unit from talking? what next take out the whole group? but people don't think about those things because any SOF unit is obviously a group of brainwashed murders.... : ok: Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: DevilHatesALoser on August 09, 2007, 03:52:24 PM I wasn't claiming that it made you less likely to follow orders, in fact it would be the exact opposite. But part of that training is to identify right or wrong, legal and illegal. Just because a soldier doesn't like or agree with an order doesn't mean he doesn't have to obey it. But part of the training is to disobey illegal and immoral orders.
In the Army, there exists a universal moral compass. Not everyone agrees with it, but they understand it and abide by it. That univiersal compass doesn't exist in the outside world and none of that studies test subjects would necessarily abide by it. Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: pilferk on August 10, 2007, 07:47:57 AM if you are one of those americans who think your country is the best there is and your country is perfect i won't bother discussing anymore. i'll say only one thing: orders are orders no matter which country you're in and there will always be soldiers to obey blindly and execute them no matter what those orders are. I don't think America is better than every country or that our soldiers are the most disciplined. In fact that is part of my point, US Soldiers are no where near as obedient as soldiers in many other, poorer countries (which I think is a good thing). US Soldiers would never committ the acts you decribed against their own people. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it, but the US military is far better trained and equipped than your own; that is the luxury of our defense budget. US Soldiers follow(99% of the time) the orders that are right. Now I'm not saying that what is right is always in accordance with the law (and that works both ways), but as a group they certainly don't follow orders that are openly acknowledged as heinous crimes. No soldier would follow an order to rape and murder a woman. Do these events happen, unfortunately yes, but they are few and far between and never condoned or tolerated by the military. Just look at those recent American soldiers caught or the Marines last year. Maybe you get offended by this, but the US Army is alot more respectful and considerate than the Armies of 3rd world countries. Wow...that's just...naive'. Edit: Let me clarify. I think, mostly, you' re right. You probably couldn't order some rank and file soldier to put 3 bullets in the guys head (though that may have happend, just not on orders). Given what's happened in previous ground campaigns (like Viet Nam) though.....I'd not be 100% confident even in that. I also think that any thought that there are not specific wetworkers out there, who will pretty much do whatever they're asked, is naive. Tillman was a high profile soldier, before he died. The math isn't so hard to do. I'm not saying it definitely WAS an ordered assasination. None of us were there, so we don't know. But I don't think you can discount it just because of your high regard for MOST of the "military moral compass". As you said...there are "scumbags" in all walks of life. What makes you so sure the CO who gave the order didn't "know" of a specific "scumbag" (or "scumbags") and send him/them out to accomplish the objective? Title: Re: Pat Tillman, U.S. poster boy, assassinated by fellow soldiers. Post by: fuckin crazy on August 10, 2007, 05:15:02 PM Wet jobs have been illegal in the US since the 60s. The DCI gets other orgs. to do his dirty work.
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