Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I am seriously pissed the more I listen to this album.


SBQM was the first single cause it was the most "Slither" Sounding song which pisses me off.

Then Get out The Door has a Slash Solo ONLY because the label wanted it.


Now one of the best fuckin songs I have heard in a decade "Messages" was left off the album and I can already tell u fuckin why.


I can see all these suits sittin around saying:


SBQM will be the first single, it is a lot like "Slither" so people will recognize the band's signature style on the radio immediately.

When it comes to ballads, We got to throw a cover on there, cause cover songs are instantly liked and recognized songs.

They got this song "Messages" fuck its great but it's between Messages and Gravedancer and God damn if Grave Dancer doesn't sound a lot like "Fall to Pieces" which was a big hit on the last record.

Yeah let's recommend the band go with Gravedancer and the cover song.

If the record sales are slow, we can always repackage the album with Messages and something else and resale it


Genius!



I love VR but am pissed off at the same fuckin time.

U put a shitty fuckin cover over a brilliant original


That would've been like GNR putting Knockin On Heaven's Door on UYI2 and leavin off "Estranged"

hate the term sell outs with a passion.

are vr sellouts?

hell no.

did the label make some bad decisions for them?

hell yes.

D, they are not sellouts.  They are putting out a good album and touring behind it and making the other available even if not on the album.  I really think the guys tried hard on this album and that is all I can ask. 

As far as leaving their greatest song ever off the album?  I too am speachless.

Sellouts is a strong word, but my scenario is the only one i can think of.


U only use cover songs if u dont have great enough original material to fill an entire album.

They proved with Gas and a Dollar Laugh and Messages that they had more than enough material.

And who gives a shit if an album flows properlY? What the hell does that mean anyway? what u hav e to have some sort of ratio?

thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Not really sellouts, more like a corporate rock band. They do what they are told to do by the label and that's how things go. Even though in 2004 they were claiming that they had so much musical freedom from the label but now we know the difference. They are told how things should be and thats it....

"She Builds Quick Machines" was the first single because it got the best reaction in the record companys tests.  Slash favored it as well.


No.  Clive Davis, an individual for whom the band has great respect, suggested it.  Do you the honestly think the band did it against their will? 


No you cant.  You cant even accurately explain the two previous situations and theyve actually been discussed by members of the band.  You have no idea why "Messages" was disincluded from the retail album.


Wrong again.  It was Brendan O'Briens suggestion.  Unless you consider him a suit?

Its nice that you like the song so much (though you have an odd way of expressing it), but if youre going to make these kinds of charges, you should try sticking to the facts rather than your imagination. 

Everyone seems to hate the Cover song

Read the reviews and the cover song is the only song that gets shitted on.


Maybe O Brien didnt want Messages on there cause maybe he didnt produce that one? Its possible........... Maybe they already had it finished but he only wanted songs on  the album he produced?

How else can u explain leaving off a song that in my opinion is the best VR song ever?

If they release that its a number 1 single easily.


Everytime I hear that song I get mad.

Big record companies stink is all anyone can really say.

It always seemed like Axl was the one with the balls in GNR, and everyone else just stepped aside... Looks like the guys in VR are still doing it, and so is axl...

Yeah lets dont get too carried away.

I'll take a VR album without Messages over having to wait 10 years. : ok:


I just am real passionate about this band and when they fuck up it pisses me off cause everyone shoudve been able to hear "You Got No Right" on the radio and experience what a fantastic song it was

THEN

Everyone should be able to hear Messages.

That song basically puts VR up even another level in my opinion.

As I've said in the past, VR appear to care more about selling as many records and making as much money as possible than they do about artistic integrity.  A lot of evidence, from the way the band was formed, to the music, to some of the behind the scenes decisions, points to that

There's no decent reason I can think from an artistic perspective of that the ELO cover is on the album and Messages is not.  No excuse at all.  But it's also odd because Messages would likely be a bigger hit than any of the songs on the album.  Maybe the record execs were afraid that the subject matter was too touchy, scared it would be seen as exploiting a recent national tragedy to sell records, so they canned it.  Still a bad move

I'm just sayin tho... The creative stuff back in the day, sigining the band name over to axl... Kinda seems the same with VR taking the back seats to suits(honestly i'm not to familair with this whole thing), nowadays...

But like you said we have another VR album, and still no CD... Cause Axl wants it his way...

Weird, because it has the only Slash guitar solo that is going to be remembered from this album. The original song sucks, the VR version sucks even more, but what Slash does in the track is fabulous, simply killer.

Nope

Yes VR are a band concerned with selling records.
Yes they are trying to be successful.
Is this really a newsflash for anyone?

You hit it right there D, it was of their opinion it didn't have a spot of record. ?It' all subjective.

Big picture wise, VR/label/management have done little wrong since day 1. ?Aside of a sketchy decision to go with DLT over STB for a third single from CB, that's about it.

Let the thing play out before you label them "sell out", just not sure if that term applies.

I didn't really mean "Sell out" as in the way most people use it.

Just maybe they aren't as in control as they should be.


I may over react a bit but Damn I just can't understand this.


I slapped Messages on my Libertad and it has helped me get into the rest of the album and to me its way better than all the other slow songs.

i don't think there sellouts i don't think they're much of anything, i mean they're not good, they're not bad, they're not sellouts.

But scott is a poser in my opinion but thats just me



:peace:



ps Slash Rules :headbanger:

What is he posing as, out of curiosity?

Scott is definitely not a poser.


I think the vocals on Libertad are some of the best he has ever done.

he's posing as some one that thinks he can sing as good as Slash plays >:(

Get out the door has a Slash solo because the record company wanted it , and how to you know this?? Not to mention you make it seem like everyone knows about ELO and the cover song? They are far from sell outs , they play what they want.

To answer your question...no.

But if they hooked up with Desmond Child and made a Country album...yes.

This is all just based on your assumption. It's very likely that the above never happened. I mean, if they were sellouts and all about the money like some in this thread have said, then don't you think they WOULD have included a propable surefire #1 single like "Messages"?

I can't say why they did it. Who knows? Maybe they felt there were enough ballads on the album? I'm just happy we get to hear the song, I don't care whether it's on the CD or not.

"Messages" is not a single.  It likely wouldnt be a hit; Im not sure why so many of you think it would.

Some of u on here are so dillusional


Bands need hits and songs to grow their fanbase.


YGNR as a single and "Messages" in my opinion would grow VR's fanbase. People would really love these songs.


Booker how can u say "Messages" wouldn't be a hit?


SBQM sure as hell ain't blowing up the charts and if Fall To Pieces can be the huge hit it was, Messages certainly could be as big as FTP.



Good job Dick Nixon tryin to slam BJ in a VR thread.

WOW Bon Jovi have the balls to make an album they want to make instead of the same ole shit and they get riduculed? but if they would've made another rock/pop album it would've been the same ole playing it safe shit I guess.........

I'm just busting your balls D.

I don't like BJ, but I admire you for sticking up for them since you like them so much.

actually D doesn't stick up for BJ unconditionally.

he'll call them out when they release shit.

So he's called them out every time they release an album?? :hihi:

A lot of their shows sold out, so my guess is that they are 'sellouts'.  ;)

In case people havent read every post.

Sell out is probably the wrong word.

Its just established Vets like VR should be able to call a lot of the shots and I just can't think of any reason on earth why They wouldn't put GAADL and Messages on the real album when they are both innovative and better than a lot of the stuff that did make the album.

Messages doesnt have to be about 9/11. I interpret it as other t hings when I hear it.

Why did they allow themselves to have poor decisions made for them by the label?

You blame the label , I mean what if they didn't want it on there?

id say they did sell out, especially this radio friendly album

how do u now messages was there greatest song??have u heard it.the only piece of it is on the vlog!!

Yikes! where have you been for the past couple of days ;).....

maybe they have plans to use messages on a soundtrack or something..its definitely a great song but theres gotta be a good reason for leaving it out...same goes for gas and a dollar laugh..that shoulda been there aswell

He is posing as whatever he thinks will make him the most money at any given time.

Iggy posted this over on the sludge boards and I think it gives a pretty good idea of what Scott is really like.

"Over the years, I'd hear something like "Sour Girl", or "Big Bang Baby", and find myself nodding along to the DeLeo Brothers catchy pop hooks, but for the most part, these Pilots seemed like bandwagon jumping con artists to me."

"So those of us who'd known the band, Big Bang Babies in Hollywood, were put-off when Stone Temple Pilots shaved their corny grunge facial hair and mohair sweaters and used that obscure glam band's name as a song title"

"it felt like, if all these grunge people were so bloody cool, why didn't they ever have the imagination to come up with their own non-glam shit"

"Fuck, man - I could show you pictures of me in 1989-1994 when I weighed 120 lbs, shirtless, in the same nazi hat and silver leather pants Scott Weiland wears now in Velvet Revolver, and pictures of him from the same year with the Anthrax facial hair and Mister Rogers sweater. It's weird. So anyway, when I saw the STP video for "Big Bang Baby" that was made to look like the sort of early MTV low budget new wave bands I loved, I was starting to get a little annoyed, cos I thought he was supposed to be the tortured, smacked out, depressed, flannel wearing, grunge guy"

"So for a moment, I got to thinking, that maybe the brothers in the band STP were actually the frustrated frontmen brains of the operation and that maybe they DID have talent, and at least some good taste in the music they always chose to rip off, and it was just their dumb manikin of a vocalist who was the one opportunistically imitating anyone who came along with their own style and vision. But that was only until my producer friend tried to make me sit through their band after the rehab-related breakup with Weiland when they got an even worse singer, called TALK SHOW, which was mostly still more unlistenable homages to each trendy target market, demographic that existed at the time."

"to me, it always seemed like this Scott Weiland fella was just so desperate for stardom and addicted to reading his own press clippings like he'd go to each and every length to try to stay vital, keeping up with musical fashion trends, no matter which way the wind blew, kinda like Tommy Lee and Courtney Love."

"Scott Weiland's kinda like Lenny Kravitz-he's got some ability, he wants to rock, he just don't fully get it."

"The Evan Dandos and Scott Weilands and Ryan Adams and Gavin Rossdales of the world are always enabled and given access to make all their shitty, boring, brazenly derivative music, Kid Rock and Sheryl Crow-but almost everybody I ever fully dug, respected, loved or believed in's been silenced, shut-out, retired, dead, or chased into seclusion by the merciless lumpen herd who never get it."

"it's kinda challenging to stay that focused on Scott Weiland's shamefully derivative oeuvre for that long, cos well, it's all thoroughly redundant even dissecting his heavily sampled, cut 'n' paste, xerox'n'roll cos all his best stuff's predominantly montages of other people's sounds and visions turned upside down and pedaled off to a sadly programmed generation and a half of kids who don't know any better"

"Scott Weiland usually DOES manage to pull off all these shop-lifted melodies and appallingly-"influenced" pop culture pastiches in an aesthetically pleasing, nearly tasteful way-he's marvelous really, at sewing everyone else's shit together and passing it off as his own. He's a little more subtle than Puff Diddy. At least the guy does have an eye, or ear, for what WAS cool, and authentic, even if he probably realizes deep down, that it ain't him-that deep down, there's no deep down, just a cool t-shirt, some tailored leather strides and rock candyTM mascara. At least he's hip enough to WANT IT, savvy enough to gravitate TOWARDS IT, instinctively, and dumbly brave enough to even occasionally GRASP FOR IT! Hell, I'd probably be a bit charmed by W if he was some kid who was just discovering the Misfits via Blink 182 or something. Problem is - he got the millionaire figurehead rockstar gig me and a zillion other bitter rock ranters all wanted and it hurts to see the winners all suck so bad. He does remind me of some mildly gifted, and clever young punk geeks I meet sometimes who ain't sorted it all out yet, but know the Velvet Underground were supposed to be cool if only cos some shite band they like, likes them. Scott's radar's always up, you can see him searching, but aside from his struggle with drug addiction, and plush, purple lifestyle, you can see how he has really yet to develop an identity of his own. It's always struck me as if poor Scott's really such a timid follower, with a spine of ?clair, that all he really ever does is regurgitate whatever someone else has already said better, and first."

http://www.sleazegrinder.com/flashmetalsuicideScottWeiland.htm

The above is only quotes taken from that page as it's too long to post it all.

Wow, I just read the "article," and what really strikes me is the author railing and rambling against Weiland and STP for being posers, all the while hypocritically revealing himself as a trendy, band name-dropping, scene-whore.  It's like, damn dude, are you angry at Weiland, or do you dislike yourself so much that you've written a thesis-length diatribe against someone you don't even know (poorly researched I might add).

the guy who wrote that sounds like some Wanna be Rockstar that never got to be so he is jealous and mad. : ok:

yeah, Ive read rockers that never made it say the same thing even about Axl. pointless drivel by a bunch of never has beens.

Most rock journalist are guys who write about it cause they can't do it.

How the fuck can some dude with a pen who cant play shit criticize anybody?

That angry, teething with jealousy article didn't sit well with a lot of people.  Rather quickly there was a rebuttal article posted in answer.

http://www.sleazegrinder.com/sleazyreaderweilandrebuttal.htm

Oh, and the author of this write-up is a lot hotter, subsequently giving her article more integrity  : ok:

I have to admit that it was strange to see Scott abruptly change his look, specifically with regards to what clothes he was wearing when he joined VR.  There were several pictures where he was wearing this leather hat and these sunglasses that made me think, wow, he looks a lot like Axl in the late '80's.  But, that's just his look, not his voice or music.

That article is way over the top and goes beyond, in its tone, as a mere dislike or lack of appreciation for his music.  It seems like this guy is crossing the line between talking about the artist in anything resembling a fair way and just using Weiland as a target for his anger and frustrations as a result of whatever is pissing him off.

At the same time, I don't agree with what the rebuttal said about STP turning out more cohesive songs than Pearl Jam or Nirvana.

Ali

Why Ali?

I like STP better than Nirvana and Pearl Jam

yea i wuld say they area sell out band.  i've always saw that side of Slash even in his GNR days since the first time I saw him play with Micheal Jackson.

I just don't think their songs are more cohesive than Nirvana or Pearl Jam.  Their songs are cohesive, but not moreso than Nirvana or Pearl Jam. Look at "Teen Spirit", that is such a simple yet catchy song, how is that anything but cohesive?  As far as better, to be honest, my main sticking point with STP, or VR, for that matter, is that I don't get anything significant, on a consistent basis, from Weiland's lyrics.  It's hard for me to get a deep attachment to STP, or much of VR's songs because I just don't get a lot of depth from his words.  For me, no lyrical depth more often than not equals no significant emotional impact from and emotional attachment to the songs.

Ali

? So EVH is a sell out too? And anyone that has ever contributed to another artist work? Sell outs change their image for the better of money , to appeal to the masses. We wanna talk sell outs , look at metallica and st.anger. : ok:

(http://www.lt24online.com.ar/2003news/graficos/scott_weiland.jpg)

While Scott was still in STP (circa 2000).

sell outs? yes they are exactly what KISS is like, maybe worse ;)

ohh... shut up  ::)

NO  : ok:

I never noticed that during his STP tenure.  I have him from the early to mid-nineties locked in my mind's eye.  Regardless, it's still stealing Axl's look :)

Oh yeah, according to the image URL, that picture is from 2003.

Plus, I went to STP's original site, and I couldn't find any pictures of Weiland wearing that hat, although granted some of them were blurry fan shots.  It genuinely appears that the leather look became much more pronounced after joining VR.  I didn't say that makes him sellout.  I just thought it was a bit strange.

Ali

Prove it! http://www.stonetemplepilots.com/photogallery_fan.html thats the STP official site, not 1 picture on there has him doing the leather and cop hat look. Not 1 picture, including the pictures from 2000.

Seen a couple of boots were he was rocking the look from back with STP.

ha!? The Bon Jovi thing is kind of funny.? ?I mean my next 2 favorite bands after GNR and VR are AC/DC and the Rolling Stones.? Though I love some Bon Jovi songs, they are in a totally different area of rock.? ?:beer:? But it's cool.? Rock on D, no matter who you like.

I like Nirvana but most of Kurts lyrics are drugged out nonsense. Some songs make sense, "Sappy" (sometimes called verse chorous verse) is great. If you like Nirvana than STP thats fine with me, millions do. But don't say your reason for liking nirvana better is cause scott's lyrics don't make sense when almost non of kurts songs ever did.

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j40/L5jml/010826_Lowlands_RobvHoorn14.jpg)

Let's not go down this road.

Thanks,
Falcon

Photoshopped







 :rofl: :hihi:   JUST KIDDING   :beer:

Its likely inspired by Axl, though it might be part Rob Halford as well.


No, the story from which the picture was used was posted in 2003.  And if Im not mistaken, VR only played 2 or 3 shows in 2003 - one at El Rey, in which he wore a button-down shirt and no hat, and one at the Smashbox, in which he wore a suit.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/luvsstp/stp-080401-36.jpg)

Almost looks like the banner behind him says "Pilots."  : ok:

Did they play at all (STP) in 2003?   I didn't realize they did.  My mistake.  In all honesty, it seemed to me like the leather look became more frequent after joining VR.  I was joking about the stealing Axl's look part.

Ali

Reread what I wrote, man.  I never used the term "making sense".  I used the term "depth" because I never had any significant emotional reaction to STP's songs.  That's not something for you to judge, so don't tell me what my reasons for liking a band should and should not be.

Ali

Yeah you tell him Ines. >:(

i did have a post with a quote and a >:( and a :rant: face but apears to be erased ::) 

KISS RULES :headbanger:

KISS does in fact rule , but you have to admit thanks to gene they are the BIGGEST sell out band ever. Disco Albums , Condoms , Kiss Koffins hahah!!

Not to my knowledge.  What Im saying is that the website from which I got that picture probably had a story in 2003 that used that picture, which is from 2000-2001.

People act like Axl was the first to wear that hat

He wasnt

So...........

Hey man no doubt but Dynasty was a good record. "I was made for lovin' you" is one of there best songs a true classic and that koffin is bad ass. It plays Rock 'n roll all nite" while your going into the hole. I want to be buried in one just like dimebag. and those kondoms are cool :rofl: in the future when i fuck some one and DON"T want to be a daddy i will ware a KISS Kondom : ok:


KISS RULES :headbanger:

I know man, that's why I said I was joking.  Rob Halford is the first I can remember.  Looking back, Halford cited that as a clue he was gay.  I just thought he was really metal :)

Ali

I hope that is sarcasm seriously....

Dont even fuck around about Kiss or I'll bitchslap u all with Kiss Info like I do with Bon Jovi info.


If u have never heard Kiss' first album Kiss, Alive, Destroyer, Love Gun, Creatures of The Night or Revenge, U really shouldn't comment on Kiss. : ok:

Dude I love kiss as much as the next guy. But they are sell outs , the biggest sell outs in rock n roll. There is a point where merchandising enters selling out , and kiss have crossed it along time ago. But i hold nothing against them great band,  but they are sell outs.

Dude


All bands are sell outs in some way or another.

Any band on a major label are sell outs in some sense of the word.

Look at even Nirvana

Kurt supposedly hated being a rock star but did everything to be successful

When he allowed "rape Me" to be changed,  I lost a lot of respect for him.

YEAAAHH ya God damn right there :beer: :lmao:

now leave D alone he's got alot of defending to do over at the VH vs BJ thread Nixon started.

i bet the little smart ass will start a thread doing KISS vs some one else.

and i agree every band is or are selling out in some way shape or form

:peace:

Kurt was a real case , he made no sense. When did he allow rape me to be changed? Any band on a major label is not a sell out , selling out means changing yourself to better suit the current musical climate. A la Metallica , look at GNR , they where 100% bad ass , they got signed to Geffen did they sell out NO. Now had axl dyed his hair bleach blonde , slash started tapping and looked like a carbon copy of most other LA bands at the time THATS selling out. A band on a major label is not a sell out.  How is every band selling out?

every band sells out but its only to what extent.

Like KISS, I have to say it don't hate me D :-[, did it in the worse best and biggest way posible, Nirvana on the other hand not so much but its all to an extent

btw KISS > Nirvy

U make music videos, go to awards shows, change your song to "Waif Me" so Walmart will sell it.

That is selling out. : ok:

Making videos is selling out? Awards are selling out? Do you understand that music is an INDUSTRY a job people make money of off?

And thats what i meant- selling out to a high extent, however there are many levels :)

There are a lot of ways to define a sellout.  To me I mainly consider a sellout a band or a musician who begins to compromise the quality of their work in order to make a few more bucks, sell a few more records

As has been pointed out, everybody wants to make money.  But when musicians start watering down their music and putting out a lower quality of work to make it more "accessible" that's when the term sellout comes into play

Sellout isnt necessarily a bad term.

Everyone sees it as something bad.

But technically if u compromise any part of your vision or art to make money, that is selling out.

Somewhere along the line, "pop" became a dirty word. Now I'm not saying VR are pop music, but they employ a pop sensibility to their songwriting, most mainstream rock acts do. I enjoy a lot of pop music, especially 80s glam metal, which is what most of these guys were sort of birthed from, in one way or another. So are they sellouts? No, I don't think they've sold out in that literal sense. I don't think they're commercially minded as much as they are commercially aware.

you don't need to play an instrument to be a connoisseur of music. you can still know whats good and bad, ie: what you like and what you dont like.

if you go take your car to a mechanic, and the mechanic does a shit job and your car breaks down a day after you get it back is the mechanic gonna say to you "oh i did a good job, what would you know about being a mechanic you aren't one how can you criticize my work".

its like people that watch sports on from their arm chair. obviously they can't do better but they can point out when somebody fucks up or does good and it can still be a valid opinion.

 

i have absolutely no problem with artists "selling out".

music is a business.

you don't make money then you're no good to a record company.

the best you can do as an artist is try and strike a happy medium between your artistic vision and what the record label want to make money.

True, I agree with that but I am speaking of malicious journalist who seem to just not like someone so they slam them as much as possible and don't fairly review stuff.

this girl just don't know what irony is  :crying:

Generally this applies when a band is trying to make a complete piece of work with their album, as opposed to recording as many single songs as possible and slapping them all together onto a CD.  Saying you don't understand why the "flow" of an album is important is basically saying you think tracklists are meaningless and songs could be ordered alphabetically for all you care...

I think the dumbest thing I've heard is this idea of "just toss all the completed songs you have on the CD and release it"... Can you imagine if Pink Floyd had an extra track lying around so they forced it onto Dark Side Of The Moon?  Do you think the RHCP should put a song like "Me & My Friends" on By The Way?... Or, like Booker said, should November Rain be included on Appetite?

Messages is a great song, it's just very different in style from the rest of the CD.

D!  Since Messages and Psycho killer on Deluxe version, are you happy?  We now have a 16 song Album!  Pretty good to me!

Now we are just missing Gas and a Dollar Laugh and Wasted Hearts, and Motherfucka.

I think the point was that he wanted the song on the official album and not an extra track on the iTunes version... It has less exposure if a person who picks the album up in the store can't hear it.

Messages should be on the album. Only reason its not was because it was used to sell more albums, itunes, etc. Never have like the VR marketing strategy.....but dont blame the band  :-\ ...blame the company or better yet  blame canada

You clearly haven't listened properly. The instrumental music on Libertad is mostly poor (SBQM, Pills, Demons, For A Brother, Spay) but Scott's vocals saves it from being an average album. Most of the most memorable moments come from Scott. Slash is my favourite guitarist and I never liked STP, but Scott is the man on Libertad. Last Fight is the best example - the music is just average, but the chorus line sticks in your head forever and the lyrics are great too. Just Sixteen is my favourite song on the album, but that's all because of Scott's vocals. The music is good but Scott brought it to a new level. I admit there is nothing revolutionary in the vocals/lyrics on this album, but it works perfectly well for the music the other guys wrote.

Remember, Scott was the one who wanted to challenge himself by making a concept album but Duff denied this soon after and then the idea was dropped. So they made a vicious rock n' roll album instead. Duff admitted recently he has nothing to prove, he just wants to make music without expectations. I think Scott has a lot more to prove than the ex-GnR guys, so as not to be outshined by the rest of the band.

It seems a lot of GnR fans can't figure out how ex-members can make a poor record so they blame it on Scott. He done the best he could with poor instrumental material. His vocals are great.

I couldn't disagree more.  I think the band is extremely tight and wrote some great tracks.  Scott's vocals are good on the record, and great on a few tracks like "Get Out The Door", "The Last Fight" and "Gravedancer".

Ali

This Weiland that you talk about - what's his cultural background? German? Just curious.....

That's one big long pointless rant. Pity he forgot to review the album he was supposed to review and instead wrote an essay about someone he clearly is bitter about because Scott made it and the writer didn't. Wow, Scott combines his influences and forms it into something new - isn't that what every successful musician/songwriter does? And as for changing trends, do all peope who lived in the 70's still where 70's clothes. Do people in the 80's still where 80's clothes? Dumb article.

Yeh, but what are his influences exactly? I'm not talking musical - from what I gather he seems to like the German military uniform look. Is that because his background is German or is he just trying to be provocative?

Don't make random statements - back it up. The Michael Jackson comment is dumb - loadsa great artists played with Michael Jackson - Eddie Van Halen for example. How do you know Slash played with Jackson for money, maybe he did it because he wanted to. The music he played with him was great. If I got the chance to play guitar with Michael Jackson, I'd do it too. Money or no money. So give proper examples before calling Slash a sellout. I've never seen you back up comments against VR.

velvet revolver are not sellouts.please stop coming to this setion making stupid threads.stay in your guns n roses section.i could easily go over to that section and make threads about waiting 15 years for 1 album,axl ruining gnr,axl being a control freak.axl rose is the biggest sellout playing to crowds everynite and not releasing material.living off all the old hits and promising the same album for 15 years.

You should know by now this is a GnR forum - stop trying to provoke people - this is how arguments start and thread gets derailed.

no he is the 1 tryin to provoke a argument with are vr sellouts,,,they just arent at all.they are a excellent band with two excellent albums out and they treat their fans great.libertad was being streamed a week before its release on the internet.they certainly are not sell outs.if use are allowed start stupid threads trying to make vr look bad at this section then we should be allowed do it in the guns n roses section but no they get banned and i wouldnt do it anyway.certain people on dis bord get a buzz out of tryin to make vr look crap and make gnr look like the greatest thing ever when their certainly not the greatest thing ever and far from it.

are VR sellouts?
to answer this i am gonna use Jason Newstead's words:
Sellout? Yes, every day, everyshow! we allways sell out!


i dunno if that is VR's case.. but still fuckin' funny said by mr. Newstead!

Eazy u are missing my point



November Rain is DRASTICALLY different than Appetite.

Me and My Friends is Drastically different than BTW


but Messages isnt that much different. On my burnt copy and sounds absolutely perfect following any song on the album.



My bitch with Messages is, Dont give the god damn thing away for nothing.

That song sells albums, that song creates new fans, that song sells concert tickets. That song should be the showcase song an album not some B side extra.

Duff said in an interview where they are comfortable having success but not too much success.

maybe they felt Messages would catapult them too high?

Duff said he's comfortable with the success they currently have, he didn't say they would be opposed to getting bigger.  I think "Messages" is a great song, but it doesn't have as catchy a chorus as "Last Fight".  So I can understand why the record company wanted that song on there instead of "Messages".  "Gravedancer" has a bit more of hook-y chorus, so maybe that was why they put that on there instead of "Messages".  I'd be willing to be it has as much to do with the label as it does with the band, if not more.

Ali

Messages is a tad bit overrated with the VR fan base me thinks.

I have to say that I honestly feel it is Slash's most beautiful and moving playing since the Illusion records.

Ali

Being a new father myself, the line:

tell my son i wish i never yelled at him yesterday,
cause everythings changed

brings a tear to my eye.

Scott hit a bullseye this time and this is the best VR song since YGNR.

American Man is seriously a grower as well. Slash does some great stuff here too.

Ya know, that's the exact reason I'm not a fan of the song musically.

Way too UYI for my taste.

Id personally use that description for Elans "Street Child" and "You Got No Right" before "Messages."

In the words of MJK

All you know about me is what I've sold you, dumb fuck. I sold out long before you ever heard my name. I sold my soul to make a record, dip shit and you bought one.


The minute you start getting paid to make music you're a "sell out" it's their job so fucking what if they "sold out". Would you bash a stock trader on Wall Street for trying to get as much out of his/her chosen profession? Probably not.

And the people that are mad because its not GNR-like... news flash they're not GNR.

I think the style/mood is different from the rest of Libertad, which is more upbeat and positive.? However, I've tacked Messages and Gas & A Dollar Laugh on to the end of the CD and have no problem listening straight through (but it could be because I consider them "bonus tracks")... I just don't see how you could sandwich a song like Messages between Mary Mary and Just 16...

I agree about giving it away for nothing though, it sucks that this song won't be the highlight of an album.

that writer was a cynical douchebag i love STP

Only thing VR are selling is albums.
RE: messages- it's to typical. Its like a poor man's estranged and nobody in that band wants to make a guns n' roses song. Its alright but not stellar

I honestly don't think Messages are better than any of the other slower songs on the album. the cover song is even brilliant IMO and I never skip it, more almost look forward to it!
Slash is great on Messages, but he's more brilliant on the cover song and American Man IMO, Messages is a bit repetative lead guitar wise, isn't it? I actually for once feel Slash could have done more with a song!

nah, the weak part of messages is scott in the second verse and parts of the chrous.   

None of these VR songs hit their possible potential.

Very much so, it's definately not my cup of tea musically. 

The only thing that gets me through this song is Weiland.

Kind of curious, what about it makes it sound UYI-ish to you? Because I really didn't get that.

W
I agree, Slash sounds very good on Messages.  I'm not sure if I respond to it because it's really great or that it's just great compared to the other songs on Libertad.  Anyways, Slash's guitar playing in this song is the sound that made him famous, his emotional guitar riffs...which would sell a lot more albums than a bland/lame song like SBQM!!

The tone,? predictability,  repetativeness.

That photo was taken at some Gay Pride march. It actually says FAGGOTS in the backround. Jarmo can verify this, he was their. Anyways, no, they didnt sell out. Why is it that whenever a band makes their best album, people accuse them of "Selling Out"

UYI repetitive and predictable? No way! I thought that was one thing you couldn't say about them albums. There are so many different types of songs and so many different parts in the songs.

As for Messages, I see what you mean, but I think it works. Its a simple musical idea for a simple song. It's just a riff. Lots of songs are based around 1 guitar riff. The only part he coulda changed was after the "angels and the demons fight while the others cry" it sounds like the start of a big solo but its sorta the same idea again. Still, its a small complaint.

Forgive me, but how to I go about hearing this song "Messages"?

We must be listening to different versions of UYI!

I am such a  loser.....I read the title of the thread and thought it meant whether VR was selling out their shows!!  :rofl: Fuck me.

As to the real meaning of the thread: look, the point of  being in the business  is to sell albums and to be  popular  on tour. That  means to make music that people enjoy.There  is no "true" definition of what great  rock is, so every artist makes different music. The album sales  and ticket  sales  reaffirm that what  the band is doing  is "good." Is that  a sell out? No, it just means it hits  with  an audience. "Popular" does not equate to sell out, or then the logic would  be  that every band that was successful (GNR, AFD) was a sellout.

So is VR a sellout? No. Anymore than GNR is for playing the same songs from 20 years  ago. If  it is great  music and people like  it, then it is not a sellout.

As to the other question, is VR selling out their  venues?

i define sell out as a band which is popular for their own merits and style  ie TOOL, GNR.  but try to change their style and experimentation to be more popular ie Metallica (load and reload)

So u didnt like Axl tryin to be Trent Reznor on "Oh My God?"

"Oh My God" sounds more like Manson then Reznor.

My definition of a washed  up band is when they try to start to sound like the original. What made GNR--as well as the Stones, Who, Kinks, Beatles, Nirvana, etc etc--great is that  they had their own original sound. When they came  on the radio you knew who they were instantly because no one else sounded like they did.

GNR needs to keep to an original sound.