Here Today... Gone To Hell!

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Four men have been charged with conspiring to blow up jet fuel supply tanks and pipelines at John F. Kennedy International Airport.

Homeland Security sources said there is no current threat at the airport and the attack as planned was "not technically feasible."

The alleged plot did not target airplane flights, officials said.

A wiretap transcript given to CNN by the FBI indicates the alleged plotters targeted the airport because of the popularity its namesake, John F. Kennedy, who was assassinated in 1963.

"Anytime you hit Kennedy, it is the most hurtful thing to the United States. To hit John F. Kennedy, wow ... they love JFK -- he's like the man," former JFK airport cargo worker Russell Defreitas allegedly said in a telephone conversation monitored by the FBI.

"If you hit that, this whole country will be in mourning. It's like you can kill the man twice," Defreitas allegedly added.

At a Justice Department news conference Saturday afternoon, the plotters were described as "a determined group" whose signature was persistence. (Watch how authorities foiled the plot )

A law enforcement source told CNN Saturday evening that the idea for the plot allegedly came from Defreitas, who also apparently recruited the other men. Those three supposedly directed the effort.

Defreitas, 63, a native of Guyana who has been a U.S. citizen since the 1960s, was arrested in Brooklyn, New York, according to the Justice Department. He was arraigned Saturday in federal court in New York. (Watch experts examine whether the plot could have worked )

Abdul Kadir of Guyana, a former member of the Guyana parliament, and Kareem Ibrahim of Trinidad, are in custody in Trinidad. The United States will seek their extradition.

The fourth suspect, Abdel Nur of Guyana, is being sought.

Defreitas was once a contractor for the aviation company Evergreen Eagle, a law enforcement official told CNN. James Nelson, a company spokesman, said the firm is cooperating with authorities, but declined to provide further information.

Defreitas identified targets and escape routes and assessed airport security, the complaint alleges. Officials said the "defendants obtained satellite photographs of JFK airport and its facilities from the Internet and traveled frequently among the United States, Guyana and Trinidad to discuss their plans and solicit the financial and technical assistance of others."

Group tied to extremists in South America, Caribbean
The Justice statement said the men began planning the assault on January 6. A complaint alleges that the plot tapped into an international network of Muslim extremists from the United States, Guyana and Trinidad.

"The defendants had the connections to present their terrorist plot to radical groups in South America and the Caribbean, including senior leadership of Jamaat Al Muslimeen ('JAM'), which was responsible for a deadly coup attempt in Trinidad in 1990," said Mark J. Mershon, assistant director-in-charge of the FBI's New York field office. "Had the plot been carried out, it could have resulted in unfathomable damage, deaths and destruction."

"As the complaint alleges, defendants Kadir and Nur were longtime associates of JAM leaders. Defendant Kareem [Ibrahim] was also preparing to send an emissary overseas to present the plan to extremist networks there when law enforcement stepped in to disrupt it," Mershon said.

An official described the suspects as "al Qaeda wannabes."

In one conversation taped by the FBI, Defreitas allegedly discusses an incident he says motivated him to strike JFK. He claimed he saw military parts being shipped to Israel, including missiles, that he felt would be used to kill Muslims.

He allegedly says he "wanted to do something to get those bastards."

In another recorded conversation with his alleged conspirators in May 2007, Defreitas compared the plot to attack JFK airport with the September 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center, saying, "Even the Twin Towers can't touch it. This can destroy the economy of America for some time," according to Justice officials.

The alleged plot was revealed when the planners tried to recruit a person who was a law enforcement informant, sources said.

Fuel line covers large, populated area
The fuel supply for the airport is linked primarily to the Buckeye Pipeline, which distributes fuel and other petroleum products to sites in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York.

"We were concerned, not only about an attack on the fuel tank farms at JFK but along the 40-mile aviation fuel pipeline that courses its way from Linden, New Jersey, through Staten Island, Brooklyn and Queens," said New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.

"The fuel line is the feeding tube that nourishes national and international commerce through LaGuardia and JFK airports."

Kelly said the NYPD's counterterrorism unit conducted a mile-by-mile survey of the pipeline after hearing about the alleged plot.

Suspect's wife denies his involvement
JFK handles on average more than 1,000 flights daily, about half of which are international flights. Each year, the airport processes about 45 million passengers and more than 1.5 million tons of cargo with an estimated value of $120 billion.

Kadir's wife, Isha, told CNN by telephone from Linden, Guyana, that she is shocked by the allegations.

"You know, my husband -- we are Muslims for 33 years," she said. "And no way, at no time we were ever involved in anything of plots of bombing or any plots against America. We are not a part of that. We have family -- both of us -- in America."

She said her husband was arrested Friday while flying to Caracas, Venezuela, to collect an Iranian visa in order to attend an Islamic conference there. In addition to being a former member of the Guyana parliament, she said, he is a former mayor of Linden.

"We are a mother and a father of nine children and 18 grandchildren," she said. "No way will we get into anything like that."

Asked why she thought her husband was arrested, Isha Kadir said it could be related to his connection to Iran. The family is Shiite, she said, and two of her children studied Islamic culture in Iran. But "we have no problem with the United States," she said.

She said Defreitas, whom she knew as Mohammed, visited Guyana for a week at some point, and that she knew the other suspects but hadn't seen Nur in years and did not know Ibrahim well.

She said she has not spoken to her husband since his arrest, but "the truth will stand out clearly. And I believe in God, and I know that God knows our intention, and he knows, and he will, you know, he will play a part in this."

A written statement from the White House said, "The president has been briefed and updated regularly on the progress of the investigation, and this case is a good example of international counterterrorism cooperation."

"Anytime you hit Kennedy, it is the most hurtful thing to the United States. To hit John F. Kennedy, wow ... they love JFK -- he's like the man,"   that guy sounds higher then me :smoking:

So...will there be a trial or the usual trip to the torture camp?

JFK Terror Suspects Face Extradition
U.S. Officials Attempting To Bring In Two Suspects Arrested In Trinidad

Two suspects in custody in Trinidad face an extradition hearing Monday morning, as the United States seeks to prosecute them for their alleged roles in a plot to blow up jet fuel tanks and a fuel pipeline at John F. Kennedy International Airport.

Abdul Kadir and Kareem Ibrahim, who were arrested in Trinidad over the weekend, will go before a magistrate and be asked whether they consent to extradition. If they fight removal, under the U.S.-Trinidad extradition treaty, the U.S, will have 60 days to submit evidence supporting their transfer.

"They have the wrong guy they should do some more investigating," Kadir's wife, Isha, told reporters Sunday on the Caribbean island of Trinidad. "We are praying and asking God for his help and guidance, and we're begging and asking Him to free my husband because he is not a terrorist."

The U.S. first asked Trinidad for help with the arrests Friday evening, according to David West, a prosecutor in Trinidad's the Ministry of the Attorney General. "We had no idea of what this investigation entailed," West told CBS News.

All four men accused are Muslims, foreign-born and middle-aged, according to the FBI. When announcing the arrests Saturday, officials revealed that alleged ringleader Russell Defterios, a former JFK Airport cargo worker, is the sole U.S. citizen and is 63. The rest, it turns out, are 51 to 57 years old.

Kadir, a 56-year-old engineer, is a former mayor and Parliament member in the South American nation of Guyana. Kadir was arrested by Trinidadian police Friday. He was pulled off a flight bound for Venezuela and connecting to Iran, where Kadir's wife says, he was to attend an Islamic conference.

Ibrahim, 51, was born in Guyana but is a citizen of Trinidad.

The fourth suspect, fugitive Abdel Nur, 57, is originally from Pakistan but is a citizen of Guyana.

A senior federal official told CBS News on Sunday the U.S. government considered the JFK cell operational "in the sense that they were taking affirmative steps to move forward with the planning" ? undertaking surveillance, seeking to obtain funding ? "but not in the sense that they had the explosives already or had selected a date to strike."

After 18 months, the official said, arrests were made because investigators had gathered all the intelligence they needed on this group and their operation.

"We could have watched them for another year, but we would not have learned much more of intelligence value," the official said. "What we could not do was walk away and leave them out there."

Defreitas was arrested Friday without incident at the Lindenwood Diner in Brooklyn, New York, where he lives. He is being detained pending a Wednesday bail hearing.

A longtime friend of Defreitas and Queens musician, Ricardo Johnston, said he can't believe the accusations against him. "The level of hatred you would have to have to plot something to injure innocent people ? I saw no signs of that in him at all," Johnston told CBS News. "I would bet all my money that him being the mastermind is utterly ridiculous."

Johnston said he has known Defreitas for 30 years and that his Guyana-born friend was "very happy to be an American citizen." They have not seen each other in five years. "I assumed when I didn't hear from him, he was living happily ever after in Guyana," Johnston said.

Johnston described his friend as neither very political, nor fanatically religious. "He would have to be one of the world's greatest actors for me to know him that long and for him to have these type of qualities," he said.

NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly rejected the notion Sunday that the four men charged were mere terrorist "wanna-bes" since they lacked money, weapons or explosives to carry out the alleged plot.

"Certainly the intention was there. You can see it by the rhetoric, you can see it by the fact that they went to Kennedy Airport on at least four occasions, took in depth specific pictures of the targets, went back and forth on trips to Guyana, to Trinidad," Kelley told CBS News.

The criminal complaint says the men allegedly approached a Muslim extremist group based in Trinidad, Jamaat al-Muslimeen, to finance and arm their operation.

The alleged JFK Airport plot has parallels to a number of other post-September 11th plots the U.S. government has claimed to foil ? suspects with no real ties to al Qaeda, attacks not beyond the talking phase, and undercover informants building the case.

Examples include the seven men who allegedly targeted federal buildings in Miami and the Sears Tower in Chicago. After they were videotaped taking a phony oath to al Qaeda, they were arrested last summer.

A New York jury last month convicted a Florida doctor, Rafiq Sabir, who planned to aid wounded "jihadists" overseas. He too had taken an al Qaeda oath administered by an undercover agent.

A Pakistani immigrant who plotted in 2004 to bomb a busy Manhattan subway station, Matin Siraj, is now serving 30-years in prison, in part due to a police informant who recorded their conversations.

More recently, five foreign-born men and a U.S. citizen, infiltrated by a pair of informants, were accused of seeking automatic weapons to attack the Fort Dix army base in New Jersey.

In the alleged JFK plot, the informant bought Defreitas his video camera and drove him on those airport scouting trips.

Critics say without the informants, the evidence is otherwise sometimes thin.

Kelly says, "We don't want these cases to go forward. We don't want them to morph into people having the ability to act out."

This seems pretty thin. Will be interesting to see where it goes.

These terrorists were attempting to kill a lot of people.


What do you care if they get tortured or not ?

Because this country is supposed to adhere to higher standards and set the bar, not lower it.

Fuck that, if we went back to the corporal punishment, and the public ridicule maybe there wouldnt be so many freaks walking the streets every single day. Most sick minded person knows if they fuck up they are going to go somewhere they can have 3 meals a day a hot shower and get treated a hell of a lot better than what there life has now.

maybe.



But when it comes to a group of people whos sole objective is to kill as many americans as humanly possible, i couldnt care less  : ok:

emotionally, i agree with you.....but we should consider that maybe torture is one of the reasons people want to kill us in the first place....

don't think for a minute the torture/humiliation at abu gharib isn't used by the terrorist groups in their recruitment videos.  it just gives them another reason/excuse to hate us. 

besides, we are better than that.  or at least we should be.

We used to be.

First off, you don't know that.

And I care because I don't want us to sink to their level. Vengeance solves nothing. It's super ego more than anything.

Science disagrees with you. Capitol punishment actually increases crime.

You talk as if you actually know what goes on behind the curtains of the war on terror. Have you ever stopped to think how many terror plots might have been stopped using this method for information ?

I'm not saying that I am for or against torture as a way to get information. But in this case, if it means saving hundreds to thousands of lives, well, FUCK REPUTATION

What I'm saying is non-dependent on situation and reason. If we want to change something, and set examples, we need to stop acting out on violence and hatred. It's something all the politicians love to proclaim, but in reality it's a hollow display.

Let me ask you this; what if instead of trying to hunt down everybody that hates us, with all needs necessary, we tried to search for the reason for all this hatred?

Maybe, then, it would go away.

The US is much larger than just New York - why us? Go pick on another city for a while. 

Dude,

WE KNOW EXACTLY WHY THEY HATE US AND WHY THEY WANT KILL US !

you think sitting down and talking it over is going to work with these extremists ?

how rude of them  :hihi:

why ? tell me why.




ps: if you're a troll and you're just acting dumb and ignorant, please tell me, it'll save us time.
cause you're too clich? too be taken seriously. thanks.

its a good thing nobody here likes you or really cares what you have to say.


otherwise i think i would be a little offended.

Continuing the actions that created the hate suggests otherwise.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't fight it, that's a given.

But do so with example, not with childish notions of justice.

You should send a complaint to Cheney. Maybe next time he'll choose your city.

To what actions are you referring to ?

The Entire Earth Must Be Subjected to Islam "How can [he] possibly [accept humiliation and inferiority] when he knows that his nation was created to stand at the center of leadership, at the center of hegemony and rule, at the center of ability and sacrifice? How can [he] possibly [accept humiliation and inferiority] when he knows that the [divine] rule is that the entire earth must be subject to the religion of Allah - not to the East, not to the West - to no ideology and to no path except for the path of Allah"

"As long as this Muslim knows and believes in these facts, he will not - even for a single moment - stop striving to achieve it, even if it costs him his soul; his time, his property, and his son, as it is said, 'Say [to the believers]: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your wives and your kinsfolk and the worth you have acquired and the trade, the dullness of which you apprehend, and the dwellings that you fancy are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger, and striving in His cause, then wait until Allah issues His judgment. Allah guides not the disobedient people" [2]

The on which we base ourselves as an organization, and on which we base our operations and our method of action, are practical and realistic. They are also scientific and [in accordance with] Islamic religious law, and they give us confidence and certainty In writing them and in [publicly] revealing them, I do not intend to be apologetic for what was done; I lay [these arguments] before you so as to emphasize that we are continuing with our blows against the Americans and the Jews, and with attacking them, both people and installations [so as to stress] that what awaits the Americans will not, Allah willing, be less than what has already happened to them. America must prepare itself; it must go on maximum alert;  because, Allah willing, the blow will come from where they least expect it"

America is the head of heresy in our modern world, and it leads an infidel democratic regime that is based upon separation of religion and state and on ruling the people by the people via legislating laws that contradict the way of Allah and permit what Allah has prohibited. This compels the other countries to act in accordance with the same laws in the same way and punishes any country by besieging it, and then by boycotting it. By so doing, [America] seeks to impose on the world a religion that is not Allah's"

"America, with the collaboration of the Jews, is the leader of corruption and the breakdown, whether moral, ideological, political, or economic corruption. It disseminates abomination and licentiousness among the people via the cheap media and the vile curricula."





This was posted by Al Quada spokeman Suluiman Abu Gheith in June to the web site for the Center for Islamic Research and Studies.

you are so naive.

there is so much to tell you, i dont even know where to begin ...

rationality of actors in conflict? propaganda? relativism of religious messages? the political reality behind any irrational dialogs?
the fact that *your side* use the same methods/messages although you dont see it as you're submerged by it?
action-reaction? american hegemony? the rich countries claws on the poors? palestine/israel conflict?
the incoherence of our actions (what we condemn, what we do)?

you're the kind of person who thinks terrorism is just pure hate and has no valid/understandable message behind it?
you're the kind of person who thinks almost anything can be escused in order to save *your own people*?
you're the kind of person who thinks these *terrorists* just hate our freedom and democracy?


read that book if you can:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dining-Terrorists-Meetings-Worlds-Militants/dp/140504716X

DINING WITH TERRORISTS

Opinion 1
This book is a fascinating read if you really care about background to the so-called "war on terror". What always interested me was the motivations behind those who resort to extreme acts of violence to progress their ideas. Are they really just blowing themselves and others up because of a hatred of freedom and democracy, or are they driven to such extremes because of circumstances?

Opinion 2
This is a truly awful book. It is part apologia for mass-murderers, gangsters and criminals, part left wing polemic. Rees is (or was) a BBC journalist and this book is a sad indication of how low the BBC has fallen, dragged down by leftist politics and crippling political correctness.

PEACE

Wasn't a major reason OBL got pissed off at the US was b/c we "tainted" arab soil by basing our forces in Saudi Arabia during the first gulf war?  Explain to me how that is an "extreme circumstance".

OBL is quite wealthy isn't he?  Whats so extreme about his lifestyle?  The extreme amount of money he has?

I disagree with. I believe that your buddies want to blow us up because we are not Islamic. And of course there is hatred behind there actions.


Not just my own people, but anybody who can be a victim of terrorists. So basically that narrows it down to anybody who is not a Islamic extremist.


Are you saying they like it ?

Attacking them with weapons of war
Sabotaging their economies
Black CIA ops to stir up shit
Polarization through the media
Supporting suppressive regimes

And just about every other trick in the book to piss them off.

i think the book focus on the *simple* terrorists. the ones that actually fight and die. not OBL ... i havent recieved it yet (the book) so i cant tell you more.

like we talked about in another thread, OBL is just one parameter. we cannot crystalize these worldwide issue to " OBL+Islam hate our democracy ".
it sounds simple and appealing, keep our mind to rest and, for people like Axlfreek and GW Bush makes everything so simple and easy .... great political tool > simplifying an issue, defining 1 or 2 clear enemies, you got 80% of your country behind your lies.

worked in the USA couples years ago, worked in France couples weeks ago, workes in Germany couple .....

PEACE

Did anyone see Countdown, on MSNBC, Monday night?  Keith did a nice little montage of thirteen instances, since 9/11, when "credible threats" or broken up plots have led to an increase in the alert level, and how each occurred at a time that was politically convenient for the Bush administration.  It's easy to pass off any one as coincidence, but thirteen struck me as pretty damning evidence. 

Keith is the man.

Well, there's alot to OBL people don't know.

The Bush Sr. connection is obvious. So is the fact that he trained with the CIA in the 80s against the Soviets.

Then it gets interesting. When Osama started attacking the US instead in the 90s, Bill Clinton wanted to do something about it. Strangly enough the CIA, military and the rest of the intelligence community were very reluctant to help. It almost seemed they didn't want him to get caught.

Then you have the reports of Osama recieving medical treatment from a CIA agent months before 911.

911 happens (not even gonna start on that one), new terror bills flies through congress, Afghanistan is invaded and then Iraq. All in agreement with what is written in the plans for the 'project for the new american century'. Read it here http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm

Few coincedences are coincedences in high politics.

i'm sure there's some truth to that. but when your approval ratings are below 50% or even below 40%, you could make the argument that ANY day in the last few years would be a politically convenient time.

and this last one was on a saturday. alot of people still don't even know about it.

Here are the videos:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIs_UgeVAqM

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjwWmg5LD_s&mode=related&search=

as more details of this case are coming to light it seems there wasn't much to ever REALLY worry about.  yes it sucks that there were people out there even thinking about doing this and taking steps towards hurting people, but it seems their idea wasn't really even feasible, that they were kinda, well crazy (literally). 

i think its terrible when instances like this one specifically are used politically.  was this a "win" for the war on terror...i guess so.  but idiots like these aren't the ones who are TRULY going to cause the damage.

case in point...from Newsday:

When U.S. Attorney Roslynn Mauskopf described the alleged terror plot to blow up Kennedy Airport as "one of the most chilling plots imaginable," which might have caused "unthinkable" devastation, one law enforcement official said he cringed.

The plot, he knew, was never operational. The public had never been at risk. And the notion of blowing up the airport, let alone the borough of Queens, by exploding a fuel tank was in all likelihood a technical impossibility.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-ushype0606,0,6561947.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

Boo!

yeah i thought about that, it was a wierd thing to hear from an official mouth, so much emotions, when nothing had been done or seriously plan
great way to keep people in fear, hate and resentment.

they could come up with some crazy lunatic found on the street and pretend he wanted to blow the statue of liberty and replace it with the statue of allah or else, that all was planned on his little sketchbook ....

I don't blame anyone for initially thinking this could have been REALLY bad.  I was pretty shocked when I first saw it on the news. However for a public official to make such claims, well.....  thats not good.  Terrorists win when they keep the masses in fear, our officials certainly aren't doing much to help that....

No, the government wins when the masses are in fear, which is why these 'terror plots' are getting so much attention.

We're currently on threat level orange at me casa right now....

I'm curious what you have to say on these topics...particularly those I haven't struck through in my quote of your text (I've read your thoughts MANY times on propaganda!  :hihi:).  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything...I really want to know your thoughts, especially on rationality in conflict!  From what you've written, I can't tell if you believe in rational theories of conflict or not.  And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "political reality behind any irrational dialogs."   

Yeah, but that's because the administration knows that YOU'RE there!  :rofl:

Jarmo or Bush?

 :o

That's cold blooded. 

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

That amounts to no more money for vast military contracts, or for Bush' pocketbook.

I guarentee you Bin Laden is no doubt living quite comfortably in the United States.

Probably clean-shaven and well disguised amongst the masses.

You don't really believe that, do you?  ???

Warmongers like Bush will always be elected, which often results in bullshit wars such as this one.

But yes, I truly believe that if Bin Laden were not still at large, the present War on Terrorism would not still be occuring.

A. you're wrong (at least not while bush is running things)

B. that's a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives - how to fight terrorism. you probably disagree with the approach, and haven't taken the time to understand what it is and how it can be effective. which is why someone like edwards can make assinine comments mocking it, and why the major democratic candidates barely mention fighting terrorism on their websites.

Here's the deal.  I'd definitely be considered left of middle on the political spectrum...but there's no way in hell I'd say the war on terrorism is over if we caught Bin Laden.  With all due respect to Axlsmainman who's a very nice guy, I think that's just wrong.  The real-life Jack Bauers, whether out in the field, or behind a computer screen are going to be needed to save our asses time and again.

On that note though, I still believe the invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake.  The money would have been much better spent on covert ops, pin-point missile strikes on Al-Qaeda and associates, diplomacy/under-the-table-payoffs with nations we might not like very much, homeland security, etc. 

Where we used to have a check on Iranian dominance in the region in the form of Iran's enemy Saddam Hussein...we've tried to bring "democracy" to a land that doesn't understand the word.  Iraq has a majority Shia population that was held in check by Saddam.  We've effectively removed the Sunni Iraqi leader (Saddam) and tried to install democracy.  Guess who will win any election in Iraq?  When we leave (which eventually we'll have to) guess who will take power?  Nice move "W.!"   ;)  Every time I think about it, it's like a kick in the balls.   :crying:

I think the electoral problems that Iraq has will eventually resolve themselves.  Once they have a stable economy and whatnot, eventually members of all religious sects will realize that their interests aren't completely defined by sect.  Under Saddam, you were either in or out, based on sect.  That system will fade away. 

Think of it this way.  Imagine, in the US, that people voted for a party that represented, mostly, one racial group.  So, there's a white party (the biggest), a black party, a latino party...and so on.  Eventually, though, people aren't going to be satisfied with those parties.  The poor whites will be irritated when the rich whites use the party to help themselves, or whatever.  All I"m saying is that, in the long run (and for Iraq, this could be decades down the road) parties based on secular identities aren't going to be stable.  They may be so long as there's a violence problem...but once that ceases to be the MAIN issue in Iraq, once it's more about the economy, and workers' rights, or ANYTHING else, those parties will cease to be.  Of course...that brings up the possibility that violence may be used as a way to insulate those in power, which, of course, is what's occurring right now, in cases like Al-Sadr's militia, and so forth.  Don't get me wrong...it's not an easy path to tread, for Iraq, but I think that, if they don't fall back into authoritarianism, they'll eventually vote in the ways that people in democracies all over the world do, which is by beliefs about the role of government, and economic policy. 

yeah, those neo-cons REALLY know how to fight terror -- by creating MORE of it to fight!!!!  Lets invade another country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or terrorism around the globe! yeeeee-haaaawwww!!!

sadly, you don't see the hypocrisy of your statement considering you supported the invasion of afghanistan.

Freedom, nice points.....but my money (and the smart money) is on a return to authoritarian rule. 

My post that attacked the folly of the Iraq invasion is worthless though because it happened and now we've got to figure out a way to muddle through the shit.  Our reputation is lower than low around the world and I'm sorry, the world is a big sandbox we all have to play in, and goddamit if we didn't lay a huge stinky log in the box.   :(

I hope it all works out, but damn, whoever is elected in 2008 has one hell of a problem on their hands thanks to W. 

Normally, I'm an optimist, but I just don't know how we are going to stop the civil war in Iraq.

Kudos to those who foiled the fucked-up plot in NYC.   :beer:

Your money may, indeed, be smart, unfortunately.  If there's one thing the neo-cons have proven very well, it's that democracy has to be homegrown.  Even if every Shia and Kurd in Iraq believed in the democracy, the fact that a substantial minority of the population (about 18-20% are Arab Sunnis) feels that losing an election means the the government is against them and, therefore, illegitimate, is quite a problem.

However, regarding 2008, no matter who is elected (even a Republican), they have the advantage of world opinion automatically rising, because the winner is NOT Bush.  That should allow for new dialogs on a number of world issues...somewhat of a fresh start, so to speak.  Even candidates who support the war have the advantage of NOT being the ones who led it down Fubar Avenue.

I cant even begin to imagine the amount of work the next President will have on his hands thanks to George.

explain to me what Iraq has to do with Afghanistan?  Then find one normal (not the left wing nut jobs) who didn't support going into afghanistan.

Yes, we prefer to actually go after the terrorists.


Sadly you still don't have a clue of what the fuck you are talking about. Afghanistan had terrorists, while Iraq had a secular dictator who had nothing to do with 9-11.


They have nothing to do with one another. Sandman is angry because Bush screwed him over like a chump-bigtime. Saying this bullshit is all he has left.

pakistan has terrorists, the UK has terrorists, germany has terrorists, the US has terrorists....

Australia has a dob in a terrorist hotline. The government issued us all with 'important numbers' fridge magnets.

I think what he was getting at was the overt state-sponsored terrorism of the Taliban and the fact Al-Qaeda's training camps were in that very nation.  Iraq's connection to 9/11 was non-existent.  pre-invasion Iraq reminded me more of Tattooine from Star Wars.  Ya know, thugs passing through and whatnot...but Afghanistan was a straight-up haven for Qaeda.  Iraq's connection to terrorism was cooked up and exaggerated on a criminal level.  For the White House to ominously warn us of "the smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud" was way out of line.  We would have been justified by the same level of reasoning to invade Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt.   

afghanistan did not attack us. it was a small handful of terrorists.

should we invade every nation that harbors terrorists?

Plenty of time left in the world....

And most of them lived through! They even got Norad to stand down. Impressive.


Only those with oil resources.

fair point. i disagree with you, but at least you are consistent.

there are similarities between our invasions of both countries.

That's kind of my point.  Leading a gigantic army into a nation that has looser ties to terrorism (Iraq) than Afghanistan has to be viewed as a mistake.  The Taliban and Al Qaeda had very well-known close ties.  Iraq did not.  The connection was tenuous at best. 

As you know, those terrorists were mostly from Saudi Arabia.  Should we have attacked them?  No.  Did Saudi Arabia condone Al Qaeda activity in its land?  No.  Did Afghanistan?  Hell yes.  Hence, at least in my eyes, Afghanistan was the right call.  A massive coordinated effort to find, infiltrate, and destroy Al Qaeda with subsequent anti-terror intelligence ops placed/bought in the various theaters was the correct action, not an invasion and occupation of Iraq.

PS, if you look closely at our Afghanistan involvement...oil is involved to a degree as well.  Don't forget, the old Soviet Union wanted Afghanistan for their own needs as well, pipelines etc.  It's like Hollywood Squares, "John, I'll take Afghanistan for the block!"   :D

Iraq did not.

Lol. I saw that coming from last page :hihi:

Are you implying we SHOULDN'T have attacked Afghanistan to respond to 9-11?!?!?! 

OBL was located in Afghanistan, the Taliban were knowingly housing/sponsoring him.  OBL had his camps there, he funded/helped launch the attack on 9-11 from afghanistan.

What was going on in Iraq at the same time?  Sarin gas?  Please.

so would you support an invasion of pakistan if we can prove he's there? (a topic no politician seems willing to discuss these days.)

i'm not implying that at all. just pointing out that afghanistan had nothing to do with 9-11.

if the pakistani govt was knowingly sponsoring OBL and letting him have active terror camps, then yes.  we should.

to say afghanistan and the taliban had NOTHING to do with iraq as a way to justify the invasion of iraq....man, you need to rethink your logic my friend.

Rethinking logic, and all. About that.

I'd be interested to see the logic behind judging a whole population on behalf of the actions of a small elite.

As far as I know, and I think a couple of experts would agree, all terrorism stem from hatred. Now, I might be wrong, but don't you think dropping bombs on a whole nation would increase that hate, and you know, by extension, create more terrorism?


So....what are we doing here?

The world has always been at war with South East Asia......

(just quoting a line from a film).....

No. There has be a more effective way. War won't solve it. These suicide/terror attacks are happening on a grander, more organized scale than people realize. It's not a small handful of people who are just crazy and want to attack at random. They're being recruited, trained and financially compensated . There's been a social broadening of this phenomenon. A Suadi telethon raised millions of dollars for Palestinians after an 18 year old girl bombed a supermarket in Isreal. It's a huge population that encourages this crisis.

The NIE said just that.

So I see.

It's all a bunch of bullshit. 'Terrorism', give me a fuckin' break. Terrorists blow up themselves and maybe a car or 2. They are simple people, enraged, and justly so.

And somehow we are led to believe that these farmers, working class people are responsible for the massive coordinated operations we have seen in NY, London and Madrid? Bullshit. It's all a game to instigate fear so our 'leaders' can gain more power and control.

And we let it happen, in a democracy, how stupid is that?