Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Associated Press

By MARYCLAIRE DALE 05.30.07, 3:25 PM ET

Illegal immigrants who worked long shifts scrubbing theme restaurants for an indicted janitorial firm have signed their names to a lawsuit seeking unpaid wages.

Some of the plaintiffs were rounded up in federal workplace raids in February and deported before receiving their final paychecks, the suit charges. Others said they worked 80- or 100-hour weeks without earning overtime pay or even the prevailing minimum wage.

"People should be aware of the kinds of exploitative situations that are happening out there, in particular with immigrant workers," said lawyer Nadia Hewka of Community Legal Services in Philadelphia, who helped file the federal suit. "Someone who worked 80 hours a week should get paid fairly for those hours, no matter their immigration status."

The 14 plaintiffs - most from Mexico - worked for Rosenbaum-Cunningham International Inc., a Palm Beach, Fla.-based janitorial contractor. In Philadelphia, the company placed workers in Dave & Buster's Inc., the restaurant chain that has a popular waterfront outpost in the city.

Other immigrants who worked in restaurants in Pittsburgh, New York, Anaheim, Calif. and elsewhere are expected to join the suit as early as this week.

They plan to seek class-action status, but would have to try to recover any judgment they might win from the government, which has seized the shuttered firm's assets, lawyer Justin Mixon said.

Rosenbaum-Cunningham and three top executives were indicted this year in Michigan on federal charges they harbored illegal immigrants for profit and failed to pay the federal government more than $18 million in employment taxes. The charges are still pending.

The immigrants say they worked as many as 110 hours a week cleaning kitchens, washing floors and scrubbing toilets. Many were locked in at their work sites and most put in 11-hour days, seven days a week without breaks, their lawyers said.

They typically earned less than the federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour or the higher minimum wage in Pennsylvania and other states where they worked, the suit charges.

The attorneys are trying to reach the approximately 200 immigrants detained in the February raids, which targeted 63 restaurants in 18 states that used Rosenbaum-Cunningham workers. The restaurants included the Hard Rock Cafe, House of Blues, ESPN Zone and Planet Hollywood.

"Some of our clients were deported, some left voluntarily and some were not picked up at all," Hewka said. "The challenge right now is finding them."

No lawyer has yet registered to represent Rosenbaum-Cunningham in the civil case, according to court records.

Shannon D. Farmer, a lawyer representing Dave & Buster's, said she could not immediately comment on the suit.

RCI co-owners Richard M. Rosenbaum and Edward Scott Cunningham and firm controller Christina Flocken face criminal fraud, immigration and tax charges in the 23-count indictment.

Their workers may not have known about U.S. overtime laws or may not have had the energy to fight for the money they were owed, Mixon said.

"You're aware people are taking advantage of you. You're just trying to feed your kids," he said. "Unfortunately - even the American public - a lot of people don't understand overtime."

This is total exploitation by the employer.

Unfortunately, since they are illegals many companies have gotten away with things like this over and over again.

True, but the reason people HIRE illegals is because they're willing to work for less.  I'm not sure what minimum wage is, now, in Mexico, but there was a point in time where our $5.15/hour was roughly equal to the DAILY minimum in Mexico.  So they could have been paid $3/hour, over eight hours, and still make $19 more than in Mexico.  Not to stereotype all illegals as being Mexican, but I'm sure there are similar discrepancies in wages between the US and other central American countries. 

Now, they certainly deserve their pay for the hours they worked, but we shouldn't falsely put a shocked look on our faces, and say "I had NO idea that illegals were working for less than minimum wage!"   

I don't think anyone doesn't realize why illegals are hired in the first place- no benefits  extended to them as well as working below minimum wage.  In my younger days Ive worked in many restaurants who had illegals working in the back...

How outrageous! I can't believe these criminals have the nerve to file a lawsuit!  :rant:

With out trying to come off sounding like an assole, you are exactly right...
"Hey look at me over here!!! While I was breaking the law and cheating tax payers, those people over there wronged me. Make them pay!!! But don't punish me in anyway for my wrong doing"

If the VERY FIRST thing you do when coming into this country is break the law...(ie. come here illegally), what rights should we AWARD you?

I don't know, what rights should you afford to humans if you're supposed to be a civilized modern country?

"If the first thing you do when coming to this country is commit state-sponsored genocide of the indigenous people. . . ."

So because we're a "civilized modern country", we should reward people who disregard our laws?

You are talking about something that happened 200-300 years ago and using it as an argument as to why the United States should look past the crimes of over a million people and offer them all the rights of a citizen...

If thats the case the "Indians" and Illegal workers are going to have to get in line behind the "Blacks" for reperations. Let's hope there are enough acre's and Mule's to go around.

I agree 100%

Not quite. I'm pointing at something that happened a couple of centuries and giggling to myself as the enormous shame of it makes illegal immigration pale into insignificance.

But in response to your response; "The Bill of Rights" is a nice name and all but surely an accurate title would be "The Bill of Dubious Privileges, Each Of Which Will Be Contested By Your Own Government, Forever."

You haven't answered my question. Should we reward people who, by their own choice, disregard our laws?

I'm not heartless, I understand their dilemma, but should we put them above those that have gone through the process legally(many of them still going through the process)?

Citizens break the law everyday, by their own choice, and it doesn't affect their status as citizens. Should work both ways.

I think that you should change the process, regardless of and separate from policy. I've said before that pretty much any normal decent person can enter the country legally if they have the money and patience required to do so. Perhaps it's time to look at which part of that two-part qualifier is failing. Hint; It's the money part.   

^ Citizens do break the law every day, and if they're caught, they pay the penalty; either by a fine or by jail time. Shouldn't that be the same for everyone?

So should a group of people who entered the Country illegally and continue to break the law every day they are here have all the rights of citizens? Also should they be given services that they don't pay into?

Sure we wiped out Native American's and took generations of slaves... does that mean we should allow a flood of illegals into the country now?

What about Germany... after all they killed Jew's... so what happens there? what Illegal activity should they turn a blind eye to?

That's all well and good... but right now I pay enough taxes. If we did what you are proposing and let anyone who could apply (regrdless of financial standing) into the country, the first place most of them would go would be to the window where they sign up to recieve free money on the 1st anf 15th of the month. Who pays into those programs?

I already addressed the first two, as for the third; Currently the Biographical Information  paperwork necessary for any sort of visa asks a number of questions about military and political affiliations the applicant may or may not have depending on where in the world they're from. I'm fairly sure that if you admit to having been a member of the Nazi party that's an immediate end to your claim for entry. Of course, that didn't bother the US government post-WW2 when they shipped a slew of Nazi scientists and spies into the country and bankrolled them abroad.

I'm not asking what former Nazi's should do.... What I'm saying is you are holding the entire US responsible for wiping out millions of Native Americans, and saying that because of that we should turn a blind eye towards Imigration.
If thats your argument, what laws should Germany pay no attention to because of something that happened in the 40's about 150 to 250 years after what you are holding the US responsible for.

Make your mind up, are they all on welfare or stealing your jobs? And how are they getting welfare without social security numbers? Seems like a failing of administration.

All of the money you pay into social security is going to other people, you'll never see a penny of it back. Hopefully the next generation won't scuttle the program and leave you without welfare in your old age but I have a feeling that they'll do just that and you'll be cheering them on while they do it. I have no proof of that last part though, rather like you have no proof that Mexicans are jumping the border to take advantage of your rather crappy welfare system. But we can both jump to conclusions on topics unrelated to reality all day long.

As I already said, I'm not connecting the issues of genocide and immigration. I brought up the indians to amuse myself, to put your shock(!) and outrage(!) over immigration in comical perspective.

Absolutely. Should work both ways.

So do you believe illegal immigrants should be deported, and not be afforded any American rights, since they're not legally Americans?

No. I think they should be made to pay some big fines, garnished from their newly-legal wages and made to apply for work-based permits to remain in the country. And those who were employing them beforehand should be fined for the indiscretion and investigated further. And then fined some more.

Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless. Once you allow an exception you're opening the door to further twisting of the law. And given that immigration law changes vastly over short periods of time it would be ridiculous to recommend the harshest possible enforcement of the rules when the rules will be different or non-existent down the road.  Can you justify both deporting illegals and the green-card lottery? Is immigration something that needs to be tightly restricted or something given away to lucky applicants depending on their country of origin? It sure as hell can't be both. 

The employers should be shut down.

Period.

Welfare isn't SSI... and I'm not the one proposing letting them into the country with free passes...You are.
Once they get here, you know they are going to depend on us for plenty of government services.

Once legal or illegal Mexicans get here?

Big fine.?. some of them are picking oranges for less in a week than I make in an hour. How are they paying these fines?

As far as extending rights, they are extended to tax paying citizens of the United States. Just because you can swim acrossa river, slide under a fence, or engineer a boat out of a bath tub doesn't give you the rights that I have earned by years of playing by the rules.

As of right now both. If an illegal shows up at a hospital right now (or someone on a work Visa), they are treated and then handled later. Who pays that bill?

A few questions,...first, you say their newly-legal wages,.. why are they newly-legal, simply because they're here, legally or not?

I agree that their employers should also be penalized, drastically, because they're basically practising in slave labor, in one form or another. If need be, shut them down and jail them.

"Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless."--Again, does that mean whether you broke the law (entering the country illegally, stealing someone else's ss#, etc.), or not?

Should we at least try and respect the rule of law, or not?

If you say it's the latter, because 'they're only trying to better their situation', does that mean that I can break whatever law I want to, to 'better my situation'?

Yeah, I'm sure that providing government services is just back-breaking work for "us" as it is. I'd advise you to let the government worry about providing government services (if they do get around to providing some any time soon).

Let's look at a few other, more important concerns;
1) Over-population: This country has expanded so rapidly in such a short time that if I had to guess I'd say that the country is at nearly 1/10th capacity as it is. If immigration is made simpler or easier we should all start to worry about pushing that 2/10ths  barrier within a scant couple of centuries.
2) Employment: Nary a day goes by when employers aren't reduced to the internet and newspapers as last-ditch attempts to fill positions. Apparently, there aren't enough illegals to steal all the jobs that Americans don't want. If we allow immigration to become any easier employers are going to be in the perilous position of having full staff rosters.
3) Economy: Our grand corporations seemingly provide fewer goods and services than ever while posting record profits. If we increase the number of people living and working in this country legally there's a very real danger that demand would increase and companies would sell more of almost everything (border slingshots excepted) which would mean that after a slight lag in meeting the demand while they invest in increasing production the many and varied industries of this country could be drowned in a deluge of bank notes. Even without raising taxes, this might mean an incredible increase in the government's budget allowing them to spend money on things other than space-age rod-dropping satellites and missile defense plans which have no guidance systems. This is the number one threat to America; The broadening of our social and political horizons combined with the strengthening of industry and a solid economy is just the kind of combination of circumstances which forces scary things like change and progress. Granted, a lot of things would have to go right for those circumstances to come to fruition in our lifetimes but still, it's a risk we can't afford to take!

So you are referencing hospital bills rather than general welfare assistance...

That's one thing, but I can't imagine any Mexican, legal or illegal, not working for their money. They are some of the hardest working people I have ever met in my life.

People are misdirecting their anger in this country I think. Employers who hire these people also keep the flow of illegals constant. It's a bullshit mixed message man. On one hand it's "against the law", on the other hand once they get here they are rewarded with more work than they could ever imagine, rent them a place to live, and sell them a vehicle. Who wouldn't come here? In order to turn off the spigot you have to cut off the work. There should be harsh sentences for the companies who hire and exploit these workers.

Ted Kennedy isn't exactly paying for these programs out of his pocket....I do (all tax payers do). Why should a portion af my salary (even as little as a penny) get spent supporting a group of people who are here illegally (or aren't paying into these programs)

1. The hospital bill was just an example, but when a non-educated person enter this country and works his ass off, but isn't qualified to earn enough money to scrape by, they are going to turn to welfare.

2. I know that the largest problem are the employers hiring them, but the solution to the problem isn't jumping illegals to the begining of the line... they came illegally and stayed illegally, they should be punished. Obviously save the fines for the employers... but o me the only fair punishment is deportation.

They would be newly-legal because if we did choose to allow them to stay in the country and pay fines to remedy their indiscretions we would probably need to give them temporary worker status to retain their jobs while we're garnishing their wages and making them apply for a more permanent visa. Otherwise it wouldn't really be possible for them to pay your fines, would it?

Yes, people should have rights even if they break the law. The question isn't respecting the rule of law but making punishments fit the crime. If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along, are they? On the other hand, enforce fines and give them the opportunity to rectify both their crimes and their legal status and a much higher percentage of them are going to take that option, especially as they'd have a good chance benefiting from it eventually.

I don't recall saying what you quoted in your last point but it's relatively true. Even so, there's a vast difference between breaking a law that you need to in order to improve your situation and, say, shooting the neighbor dead because he plays shitty music too loud. And there's the question of the effects of breaking the law - using someone else's social security number to work is one thing, using their social security number to fraudulently run up thousands of dollars of purchases on credit is another.   

If I don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail for murder 1, guess what, I'm not going to plan and commit a murder.If they don;t want to be deported for being here illegally, then don't come illegally. If you want to be here legally then go thru the proper channels in the first place.

Is it that hard to follow the rules?

Again I ask you, how are they paying these fines? they are going to sky rocket from 2 dollars an hour mowing lawns to 5.15 cleaning dishes. at that rate I'd have trouble paying a public library late fee, never mind a fine for entering the country illegally

We can all argue about our disagreements with government spending but they're going to tax you regardless of whether you like it or not. Regardless, I'm not interested in discussing the personal financial cost of illegals and its ramifications on your wallet. We were discussing making immigration easier and finding a way for illegals to become legal, neither of which relates to your concern about your governments spending habits.

Why give someone who broke the law a free pass at entry? (again I'd like to see how your fine plan works, and how they will pay)
As far as government spending... why increase it by flooding social welfare programs? I know I am paying taxes for the rest of my life, but why should it benefit people who are here illegally or were rewarded for comming illegally.

They're going to pay the fines by working. They are going to work by keeping the jobs they're illegally working now. They're going to be able to afford the fines because they will be paid the legal minimum wage and garnished according to their means. The fines would also have to be appropriate, rather than prohibitive.

You can deport people but it simply doesn't solve the problem. We have deportation right now and we have as much illegal immigration as at any other time, doesn't that tell you something?

So fine them just to fine them, but make sure it doesn't burden them?? What good does that do??? Congratulations, you have now been raised from 2 dollars and hour to 5.15 an hour... but don't fret, you are only moderatly below the poverty line, so as soon as you can't pay for heat there is a program for that, and if you want to go to school... just go to any State run school.. don;t worry about it, we'll just get someone else to pay for it.. by they way we need to fine you, but we don;t want to make it tough on you, so pay what you can... Also now that we are expecting you to pay that fine, we'll understand it if you decide not to speak the offical language of the US... so don't worry about learning english (but stay away from the asshole with the Cheese steak stand in Philly (sorry old joke))

Why? To make them legal and therefore accountable. You prefer they remain illegal and unaccountable? That benefits you somehow?

Screw your taxes. Write to your congressman, seriously. I'm really, really not interested.

I am however interested in how deportation has proven itself to be an effective solution to illegal immigration. As well as what a good job our lawmen have done so far in identifying and deporting illegals as well as toughening up the borders. I'm ready to hear all about the successes, go! 

It should be a burden without being impossible to repay in their lifetimes. You could fine them a million dollars but I'm not sure that would achieve anything.

First off I;m fine with what I pay for taxes, but why should it goe to the million or so people that you just want to deem citizens...

Second, as far as border security goes... we haven't been allowed to toughen the border. As soon as the fence gets brought up... It is either "Racist" or it is too close to the Horny Toad habitat...

So let me recap;
1) You're obsessed with your taxes.
2) No great success fighting illegal immigration by current methods.

Yep, got it.

1.) I'm obsessed with making sure the money I do pay goes to legitiment programs benfiting other "Tax Paying Americans"

2.) There is a huge imigration issue, which could be limited by properly guarding our borders. Unfortunatly serveral groups want to do everything possible to protect the rights of people who don't belong here as well as protecting frogs and owls from the "dangerous" walls and fences instead of protecting our borders.

First let me say, I appreciate this discussion staying on a level that doesn't involve name-calling and insults...

now,..'if we did choose to allow them to stay in the country and pay fines to remedy their indiscretions '...

that should be a country-wide decision, correct?

'people should have rights even if they break the law.'--granted, but does that mean that someone who's first act in this country was to break the law should have the same rights as someone who's played by the rules. Do we grant prisoners the same rights as someone who isn't ?imprisoned?

'If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along'--they don't have to play along..they're either in jail or deported

Believe it or not, I can actually sympathize with both sides of this issue, it's just very hard for me to side with someone whose very presence here is breaking the law.

Since this is going in circles for the umpteenth time, how about some new blood.

In response to the above:

1.) There are BILLIONS of dollars spent every year by you and me, the US taxpayer, that are spent on non-Americans...and I don't mean illegal immigrants.  We send money everywhere.  So, the idea that illegals are getting a piece of some special "Americans only" pie isn't really true.

2.) The general argument over immigration is one taking place through rose-colored glasses. 

C0ma argues for the fence as a largely untested method of border control.  While true, I would question the ability of maintaining a border fence of that length.  They do, I'm assuming, have wire cutters in Mexico.

25 claims that, as all prior methods have failed, the solution is to fine illegals, and make them pay taxes.  Of course, this is a noble idea, assuming that illegals are willing to step forward and pay their fines.  But can you imagine any other system working like this?  If a driver didn't fill his/her parking meter, and the system in place asked that he/she  go to the local police station to pay a parking fine, how many times out of 10 do you think that would happen?  Oh...but there's an incentive!  IF you come in to pay your parking fines, we'll keep better track of you and make SURE you fill your meter every time, from now on, meaning that, basically, nothing in your life will change, except that you'll have less money.  Deal?   :rofl:

It is understood that tax revenues get distributed among several foreign and domestic programs, but, unleashing this many people into the US with limited income is going to add a HUGE burden on our domestic social programs. That is going to require either more money or for government to take money from their several pet projects... which do you think is going to happen?

As far as the fence/wall... sure it is unproven, but to dismiss it out hand is insane... I'd rather let it fail than not try and move forward with a plan to reward criminals by waving a magic wand over their head and making them legal.

My bet would be neither...they'll run up the debt with high deficits, while trying to avoid raising taxes so as to get re-elected.  Which is probably the worst option...


I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, but I'm not one for liking fences, in general.  What the government says is to keep the illegal immigrants out, now, can one day be used to keep someone else in, which is a frightening prospect. 

But that aside, once there are holes, which there will be, you're right back to the problem of trying to patrol a massive border. 

I'd say those holes will be smaller than the ones in the system where illegals line up to pay their fine...
Also as far as holes, I don't think they are proposing Hawkeye Fence (Brockton, MA) install a 1400 mile long 6 foot high Chain link fence. Everything I've seen is more wall than fence (insert Berlin Wall comment here) which is what outrages environmentalists due to it's impact on frog migration. (I also think there is a possible related barn owl issue, but don't quote me)

Nice turn of phrase.  And you may be right.  As neither is proven, it's tough to say.  I want to be both practical and humane, and I don't think it's practical to say "Deport 'em all, and keep the others out." 


Oh, I'm certain it's not the fence that keeps my dog from shitting in your yard.  :hihi:  But I'm very much against any Berlin Wall type of fortifications.  Keep in mind that that wall wasn't to keep Westerners out...

1) That is simply not true. I see Mexicans who come here all the time (legally) and work 15 hours a day (two jobs) 6-7 days a week, and do just fine. They'll work construction during the day, then at a restaurant at night, they bust their ass when they come to this country simply because they are able to.

2) They both should be punished, but the punishment towards the employers should be the harshest.

I'm not saying that Mexicans are the total problem. I hate to sound like Reggie White... but "The Mexicans" are hard workers, and I understand that they do work insane hours at multiple jobs and do everything they can to get by. But there are more than a few who don't or they still can;t get together enough to live on, so they become dependent on things like assisted housing programs... yes they work their asses off, but their asses in most cases aren;t qulification enough to stay above the poverty line.

I agree that the company hiring should be punished the most severe... but my point is there is no good way penalize them (the illegal) with fines they either can't or won't pay, they are already here illegally, what is going to flip the swithch that says "Well I wasn't supposed to be here, and I came any way, but I really should pay the fine that I can't afford"

Have you been to Mexico recently? Outside of Cabo San Lucas, it should be illegal for Americans to travel there. If that wall stops my wife from hounding me to go to Playa Del Carmen once a year than it is worth it's wieght in gold. (just kidding)

Not too recently.  It's been probably seven years, I'm guessing.  Maybe eight.  Back when they still allowed you to climb the pyramid at Chichen Itza.

My view has never been to just close the border "No more dirty Mexicans", I just want to see them make a legal stab at comming here from the get go. Not swim up the coast and run across Interstate 5 in SoCal (hoping motorists know what that funny "Danger Illegals crossing the highway" sign means) and then sort out how there staying here after the fact.

If you come here illegally go back and get at the back of the line and do it right next time.

1) I understand what you are saying, although don't agree with it. Mexican culture and respect for money is day and night compared to "white" America. They also tend to have more in a dwelling which cuts down on their expenses. Mexicans mostly buy "things" with cash, are amazing hagglers (while I respected Mexicans, I friggin hated dealing with them because they were hardcore bargainers, and I mean hardcore. I still admired them for it though, even though it was a PITA) The money they make they respect, and don't part easily with it. Based on my experience with this culture I find it extremely difficult to believe many would ever end up in the welfare line (any more than any other race.)

I read an article recently that pointed out that the majority of new millionaires in this country were not born here. For good reason: People who come here, especially from poor countries, bust their ass when they get here simply because they are able to. While many of us have become complacent with easy credit, pay later attitudes, poor savings and no respect of money or how it truly works. I'm not claiming Mexicans are the next waive of millionaires, but they do come to this country with that mindset (work and attitude towards capital.)

2) I agree, I don't think fining illegals make any sense.

I guess my biggest point is I'm not pinning this issue on Mexicans, while thats where they are crossing from. They aren't all Mexican, and don;t share the same engrained work ethic. We have a huge Hispanic Population up here in MA (Brockton MA for some reason is like Aspen to these people (and Brockton has been a shithole since Rocky Marciano retired)) they tend to run at a slightly lower speed than Mexicans (or so it seems) based on what I see every day. That city barely stays afloat after all it does for (education (special ed/ESL), healthcare, housing, etc...) sure they get money from the state to help, but there is only so much to go around.

It is quite the conundrum that's for damn sure.

I still think the solution has to be a Mexican one.  The reason for illegal immigration, here, is the same for their emigration, there...it's just better to live and work here!  As long as that's the case by such a large margin, this will be a problem.  When the Mexican standard of living and wages start to close on ours, the problem will diminish.   

When? I can't recall any immediate plans to improve the very profitable explotation of the third world.

The government loves immigrants. The economy grows, without the extra expenditure of health, pensions etc.

Oh, and yeah, they can be used as another fear tool when somebody needs to be blamed.

Oh, I didn't say it would happen soon.  But imposing fines and putting up walls are "solutions" to the problem that don't do anything to actually fix the root causes of the problem, which are the Mexican (primarily) and Central American economies. 

Do you know that in politics the 'third world' is no longer referrd to as the 'third world' - these countries are now called 'developing countries'.

I also know that black people are referred to as african americans although most have never set their foot on that continent. I love politicians.

Well actually I claimed that the solution was to make the immigration process more accessible to those coming from poorer countries (way back at the beginning of the discussion)  and to give illegals a means of becoming legal. I'd whip the fines on them to appease the "rule of law" types. And I think it would work a little better than your parking meter example if only because you left out the part about attaining some sort of legal status and no longer living on the scraps handed out by dubious exploitative employers. I'd think that not being a fugitive and not being exploited are fairly decent carrots and paying a fine is a fairly flimsy stick. I'm not claiming it's a great idea but I will go out on a limb and claim it would be more effective than spending the money on detaining and deporting people who will then re-enter illegally, nullifying your efforts.

I still can't get past the fact that you are rewarding someone who broke and continues to break the law. Which sends out the message "Please come by any means nessesary because once you are here will fast track you to legal status, so why wait for the proper channels"


Lady Liberty's inscription is a little out dated:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

That was all well and good in the late 19th and early 20th centuries when we were building a country (with people who entered legally (for the most part)), Now we do all of our nation building in Middle Eastern and African sandboxes... we have no time for it here

If you want to be less PC about it and more illustrative of the idea of exploitation, you can refer to the industrialized world as the core, and the non-industrialized world as the periphery.  That would make Mexico part of the semi-periphery, consisting of somewhat industrial states. 

illegals shouldnt be making money here in the first place...nevermind have the opportunity to sue people....

1) Why would tax payers have to spend tax dollars on illegals that were made citizens?

they would be paying for it too wouldn't they..... they would be paying taxes under the Idea presented by 25, along with their fines.

2) As I stated B4 the only way to solve this issue is to curtail the influx of illegals that you currently have. How do you do it..... Fine and jail the shit out of companies and corporations that are hiring illegals, and importing them. Build 1 wall and 2 fences along the border. design it so that areas that are affected by migration routes have large "controled" gaps. embed ground force sensors in all non regular patrol areas. Add fixed CCTV camera points every 200 yards complete with IR NV and daylight features. incorporate "spewer" UAV for low level and mid level flyovers of the entire border. Create border stations every 20 miles that can house 10 patrol officers each..... so you will need 70ish so that 700 officers...... with the use of all the electronic survaliance you could drop this down to 1 station for ever 100miles and include helio support for longer hops and give it 10-25 each of officers and ground crew.piolits..... down to about 350. if you are worried about tunnels..... spewers can look for exits and entrances.... have 7 teams haul a ground penetrating radar over the boreder area every other day to check for em.

so i just spent...... about 1.2 billion in in construction of this..... another 200-400 million in equipment costs and 15yr maintance agreements. another 33 million on officer salary and about 20 - 30 million in fuel costs per year and about 5 million in power bill...... say 2 billion and you just secured your border. if you want a reall good high grade gravel road...... as well... tack on another 400-600 million

3) Then you can start to do the internal clean up. Though i do agree with the arguements of giving a gift to law breakers..... if you an manage to toss 10 million est illegals out without a riot or war, i say good fucking job. realisticly the Idea brought forward by 25 is more do able..... is it exactly what needs to be done... maybe maybe not... but something looking in this direction where the illlegls pay ?even a token fine of say 2k over 3 years would net you about 20 billion and it just payed for the border wall and its operation and up keep costs for the next long while. They would also be paying taxes so there would eb another big injection into the coffers of the US....

It seems an easier distinction to make, when it's about a paycheck, but the right to use the court system is one that should be open to everyone.  Suppose something like a wrongful death suit needed to be filed.  The idea that someone should NOT benefit from the system of law and order is a bad one, even if they, themselves, are law breakers.  If an illegal immigrant is murdered, it's not as if we just don't investigate and prosecute.  Whether someone is an illegal immigrant has little to do with the jurisdiction of a particular court and, if something lawsuit-worthy occurs when someone is in another country, illegally or not, then that's where a lawsuit must take place.

It seems, to me, that there are two separate issues, those being immigration and its problems, and questions of rights.  Solving immigration problems has little to do with taking away people's rights.  Just because someone is an illegal immigrant does NOT mean that they don't have the basic freedoms that come from being in this country.  To do so is to treat them as less than human, a la Dred Scott.         


Are you kidding?  Congress couldn't commission a report on how to wipe its own ass with 2 billion.