Here Today... Gone To Hell!

A man living in Cleveland lawfully caried a concealed weapon. Two young punks accosted him while he was walking up to his home. One of the douchebags, a 15 year-old street gang member, pulled out a gun and attempted to rob the guy. The homeowner pulled out his .40 caliber and killed the gun-weilding shit head. Now the homeowner is under seige by neighborhood asshats, and was forced to leave his home.

Cleveland man caught up in gun debate
Posted by Damian G. Guevara and Patrick O?Donnell April 23, 2007 19:56PM

Damon Wells is the man gun supporters imagined when they fought for the right to carry concealed weapons.

He had a permit to carry his gun, and he had the gun on him when a pair of teenage thieves approached him Saturday night on his front porch.

When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells whipped out his and shot one of the boys multiple times in the chest, police said.

Arthur Buford, 15, died after stumbling away and collapsing on a sidewalk near East 134th Street and Kinsman Road.

City prosecutors decided Monday that Wells, 25, was justified and would not be charged for what appears to be the first time a concealed-carry permit holder has shot and killed an attacker.

Nonetheless, the shooting reignited the debate that roared three years ago when Ohio's concealed-carry law took effect.

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police refused to punish Buford's shooter. "They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's accomplice disappeared after the shooting and had not been caught Monday night. Police found a .38-caliber handgun in the mail chute of a nearby house. They believe it belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson firearm from Wells, the police report shows.

Both sides of the gun debate said it was sad that a teenager died.

"It's tragic," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the Buckeye Firearm Association. "Anytime somebody dies it's tragic, but it's hard to have any sympathy when he chose to have a gun and go threaten somebody's life."

Irvine said it was "great that a potential victim is able to continue his life instead of having a criminal take it."

Toby Hoover, of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving a concealed-carry permit holder.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

A man who answered phone a number for Wells refused to comment and hung up. No one answered the door at Wells' home.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/04/cleveland_man_caught_in_gun_co.html

More here: No sympathy for thug culture
Wednesday, April 25, 2007Regina BrettPlain Dealer Columnist
There's a sheet of tributes taped to a red brick wall.

There's a utility pole covered in glittery balloons.

There's a pile of teddy bears resting not far from where 15-year-old Arthur Buford died on the sidewalk.


But there's no debate over concealed-carry laws.

A debate would be as unnecessary as the tributes posted to honor a teen who went looking for trouble and found it.

Damon Wells, 25, was sitting on his own porch Saturday night. It's a long, narrow gray porch with a wicker chair at the end. The house sits near Kinsman Road and East 134th Street in Cleveland.

He was minding his own when two teens tried to rob him. The plan backfired. When Wells saw one kid pull a gun, he drew his own Smith & Wesson and blasted away.

It's sad that a delinquent died on the sidewalk.

It would have been sadder if a law-abiding homeowner had died on his porch.

Wells had no criminal record.

Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, was still on probation. Last year he committed an aggravated robbery.

Three years ago, Ohio made it legal to carry a concealed weapon. Wells had a permit to carry the gun. Back when Second Amendment advocates argued for that right, they warned people: Don't carry a gun unless you plan to use it if your life is threatened.

The Smith & Wesson could be credited for saving Wells' life, but it didn't protect his home.


After the shooting, someone smashed in his front windows. The house looks deserted now, with sheets of plywood nailed over the windows and front door.

Ever since the shooting, people have stopped at the nearby memorial to scrawl messages honoring Buford.

"God gave me a new angel man . . . Why Da Good Die Young . . . I'll see you in eternity . . . You are with the Lord and we happy for that."

One woman walked by with her toddler. She set a teddy bear in the pile of stuffed animals and scrawled a message on the sign. Her little boy pointed and squealed at the balloons dancing in the wind until she pulled him away.

Others drove by and stopped to tie more heart-shaped balloons to the pole.

Buford's cousin had grumbled to one reporter about the shooter being allowed to run free.

Wells killed the teen Saturday. City prosecutors cleared Wells on Monday, calling the shooting justified. Which leads me to wonder: Why does it take so long to clear police officers when they fire in self-defense?

At least no one can cry race this time. Both the shooter and dead teen are black.

I can't bring myself to call Buford the victim of a shooting. He was the instigator of one.

His family should be ashamed of his actions and apologize to the man he tried to rob.

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What's the over/under for Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson to fly to Cleveland to side with the shooter?

"[T]hat the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed."  Hey here's an idea: the 15-year-old might be alive if he didn't try to stick a gun in someone's face!

In the eyes of certain people, the perpetrator is never at fault when he gets what's coming to him.  Certain people are really fucking stupid.

Well, Its a matter of Time before That boy killed people, That Man send him to Hell for The good reasons. :yes:

That's the kind of thinking that will get you to hell, no? :hihi:

It was clearly self defence, I don't see any 'news' in this. The 'intellectuals' needs to find a proper job, this is not what I'm paying tax for.

Mess with the bull you get the horns.....

It would have been selfe defense if the guy had shot the boy in the leg or arm.

But again a good example for why weapons are no good, no matter who carries them. If it really is a matter of self defense, I can imagine injuring the one who threatens me. But killing him as a completely different matter.

In 'Merika, we shoot to kill.

Jesus christ this world sucks when you can't even kill 15 year old shitheads anymore without getting harrased by all sorts of shitheads.

That's why we ol' Europeans have our problems with 'Merica...  ;)

It's sad that someone had to die, but this is perfectly justified. 

Of course, some will decry the violence.  The real culprit isn't guns, though, but the situations that lead urban youths to join gangs and commit crimes.

15 years old rob you with a gun? people need to carry guns for protection ?

man, that's some fucked up country you guys live in .... and i wanted to move to NYC for a bit ... is upper east side safe ? ;)

Avoid areas with gangs and you should be ok.

the little shit got what he deserved.   

people are actually sorry for this piece of shit?

there are, but i can tell you that, you dont FEAR for your life. i dont think i've ever seen a gun in my life (except at the shooting range or so). i did live in nice areas in france, but i often, all my life, go play soccer in the "bad" neighborhoods. so.

i can tell you for a fact that "your life and safety" is really NOT the main subject you have in your head in my country.
i think it's sad state where you get into the mindstate where you "need a gun to protect yourself".

so yeah, compared to what you guys live, im sorry for you, it's pretty much sunshine and roses ;)


Jim Bob, i am sorry. we are not supposed to take on justice alone.
The guy kille a little boy.

Let say, the kid robbed the man. got away. then got picked up by the police later.
what do you expect ? Death Sentence? Prison.
i dont think that you will morally kill a 15 years old for robbery, even with your hardcore cowboy mind.

So here you are happy that the Kid got killed.

In our civilized countries, we have police, justice to ensure the good cycle of a safe society. if people start to police their life and lay down justice on their own (cause in the end that's what he did, he sentenced the kid to death, for robbery ...)


you know what? i'm kinda tired of trying to debate with youze guys crazy society. it's your kids dying.

Yeah, the kid was armed too.  I suppose that if the man knew 100% that the kid wouldn't shoot that your argument is perfect.  But the reason the kid had the gun is because the threat of shooting is what lends him credibility in this crime. 

So, actually, it wasn't justice.  It was defense.  The shooter didn't seek out someone who had committed a crime.  Crime came to him, and he acted to defend himself. 

do you know what the kid wanted to do? are we sure he was about to shoot the damn man?
He sentenced him to death by doubt.

What i want you to see, is that the next step for these kinda of mentality, would be me shooting a guy that kinda walks on my yard ... because i dont know what's gonna happen .. maybe he wants to kill me !

what's the point of the police?
by telling people they need to carry guns for protection, you are destroying any value the police has. you are telling your citizens " we cannot do anything for you, fight for yourself " .... (oh wait ?... :) )


there is not death penalty for robbery? but there is for "threatning life".

?_?

freedom78

so for you the crime has already been commited?
threatening a guy with a gun or actually shooting at him is the same thing ?

some man should choose "killing another man, a kid" over " getting your money taken" ?  ... wow. just wow.

Walter Sobchak- What's mine is mine.

Shoulda bitten the hooligans' ear off.

If you had a gun and someone was pointing one at you, how long would you wait to see if he really intended on using it or not?

Problem is, gangs are spreading like wildfire...

considering the fact that this situation will never happen to me, except if i become a soldier on a warfield, i dont have to answer this question.

again, you'd rather play the cowboy rather than giving your money or so ?

here is a little something for you:

Bullshit. say some punk tried to get you for your auto
Would call the one time and play the rolemmodel?
No! I think youll play like a thug
Next hear the shot of a magnum slug, humming coming at ya!

i hear you. i heard what you call " big jump " - i say never be so sure about how stable you think your society is -

and then i read "when you fear for your life.". THAT is the problem. right here.

it goes back to my guy on my yard : how can you deny me, when i said " i feared for my life "

I am the only one who can feel my fear. if i say i feared for my life when you kinda crossed on my yard, you have to take my words for it ... i will shoot a lot of people ?;D.

i tell you lady, if the majority of americans think like you do - and they have the right to do so - you're society is going down the drain .... oh wait ?;)


Sterling > ok i would have given what the thugs wanted to rob from me.

No...what I'm saying is that if someone is using a gun to rob you, you have to believe they're willing to use it.  How could the man who was being robbed know that the kid wouldn't take his money AND kill him, so as to get rid of the witness?  If someone points a gun at you, it makes NO sense to assume they aren't willing to use it. 

it does to me, i would think the robbers would just go with the shit. that's just me i guess, i think people are nice ;)

and again, it's about a one case scenario, it's the global impact, direction that its given to society. it shakes down everything civilized we have organized. it's one step ahead from anarchy.

i used to like anarchy ... when i was 14.

who will put black people behind bars ;)

I honest to God cannot understand Europeans' obsessions with the "cowboy" stereotype.  Yes, cowboys were a part of American history.  Whoop-de-fuckin'-do!  I have my doubts as to whether most victims of gang violence think "what would John Wayne or Clint Eastwood do?" 

As much as this country is criticized for its ignorance of other cultures, it's pretty apparent that the critical hypocrites never consider their own stereotypes of others.     


Again, you're equating self-defense with vigilantism, when they aren't the same thing at all. 

You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to incapacitate. ?Being from Ohio and having a CCW in Ohio, I know the law very well. ?In fact, I spoke at the statehouse several times and worked with Ohioans For Concealed Carry and the Buckeye Firearms Association to help get the law passed. ?Any shooter knows you always aim center mass. ?To aim at someone's limb is risky because of the size and likelihood of missing. ?Aiming at the torso increases likelyhood of a hit and is the most effective way to incapaciate someone. ?

That little bastard got everything he deserved. ?He was establishing himself as a career criminal. ?The fact that people are attacking a man for defending himself drives me nuts. ?Think about that, some piece of shit thug goes to harm someone, gets killed for his troubles and the blame the would-be victim. ?That thug is no angel and is probably rotting in Hades right now. ?

Spare me the bullshit about his circumstances. ?He was a street thug who messed with the wrong person. ?Notice how the fact that he was 15 and convicted of a felony didn't stop him from getting a gun to all of our gun control advocates out there. ?An honest, law abiding citizen defends himself and is now being attacked. ?How some people can vicitimize the thug is beyond me.

Robbers aren't nice people.  Nice people don't threaten your life at gunpoint to steal your money.

I'm certainly not saying that circumstances justify criminal actions, merely that if we got to these root circumstantial causes, perhaps we'd have fewer instances of violence.

i'm with the guy that killed that little bastard, he pulled out a gun the other dude, in self defence, pulled out a bigger gun and called his bluff. That guy was in the right. :yes:

Maybe he did shoot his torso and it killed him.

I don't really want to give someone a chance to shoot back.  I wouldn't shoot for their head or limbs since they are smaller targets, but I def could still kill him.

And Freedom is right about Europeans and cowboy thing.  Maybe in Texas.  :P

That was my point Cornell.  You shoot someone in the torso to incapicate them.  More often than not, you incapicitate them through death.  It is actually against the law in some states to try to just maim someone by aiming for the leg or arm.  You are only allowed to fire at someone in self defense, when life or limb is in danger.  You don't want to let them shoot, so you aim center mass (the torso) and put at least two controlled shots in them.

People who think you should aim for limbs to minimize harm have no understanding of guns or even self defense laws.  They are the ones who perpetuate the cowboy sterotype with their ignorance.

Incapacitated through Death.  The next Motorhead song?  :rofl:

My thoughts exactly.

That Damon Wells guy did what I would have done in a situation like that.

If somebody pulls a gun on me and I happen to be carrying, I'll shoot the fucker in the head, no matter how old. That kid fucked with the wrong guy, and now he is dead. He should of thought about the consequeses before HE decided to try pull a gun on somebody and rob them.

aaahhh - I see.  I though you were saying that you don't shoot to kill, but rather you shoot for the torso which is the same thing to me. :)  In any case, I don't see how anyone can blame this guy for defending himself.  He didn't pull the gun first and it came down to who was going to shoot first.  I'm not waiting to find out.

You gonna risk shooting an arm or a leg, and probably miss? Then you're definitely dead.

I agree about the stand on guns in general, but if somebody threaten you with one you got all the perogative in the world to end that perps life, imo.

well ... i must really live in a different world ... move here guys.

With all the bad breath and german legions waiting to include you in their next reich? Nah, come north. :hihi: