Here Today... Gone To Hell!

(Updates death toll, includes campus police comment)

WASHINGTON, April 16 (Reuters) - At least 22 people, including the suspected gunman, were killed and many others were wounded on Monday in a shooting rampage at Virginia Tech university, police and university officials said.

The rampage took place in two separate areas of the campus about two hours apart during the morning. Police said they believed a single gunman was responsible.

"This is a tragedy of monumental proportions," Virginia Tech president Charles Steger told reporters.

It was one of the worst shootings on a university campus in the United States since a massacre at the University of Texas in Austin on Aug. 1, 1966. Charles Whitman killed 15 people, including his mother and wife the night before, and wounded 31 others in that shooting.

Virginia Tech, with 26,000 students, is located in the southwest corner of the state, about 240 miles (390 km) from Washington.

Police said they were investigating whether the gunman killed himself or was killed by authorities.

Most of the shootings took place at a part of the campus called Norris Hall, according to campus police chief Wendell Finchum.


http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN1631605420070416


Shocking Stuff

This shit is horrible... People are nuts... RIP to all  :no:

Again? Already?

Where are we heading...

ABC News is now reporting 29 http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045574

Federal Sources: At least 32 dead

This is horrible.

Here we go again.......disgusting.

I'll just say it

The same people shot today were defending their ''right'' to bear arms yesterday

You reap what you sow

Honestly what do Americans expect?

And not one of you will do anything about it - you'll be defending your ''right'' tommorow and savaging any politician that dares to do something about this

The right to bear arms got little to do with it. My country has the highest concentration of guns per household in the world, and we've never had a school shooting. It's a problem rooted deep in the society, and there are no short cuts to a solution.

Try looking at the increased work pressure, the power of television and marketing, and the increasing alienating of different thought/behaviour.

You're really going to draw out the nut jobs with that one.

well the gun law mixed with the appetite for destruction in th usa doesnt help at all.

sad stuff, i know people from virginia :(

and tommorow will there be a great uproar against guns? Will we see presidential candidates campaigning against guns?

No.

We'll have everyone from Bush to Obama saying how sorry they are - but its still a good idea to have every psycho armed to the teeth

How many school shootings does there need to be before people do something?

In the UK a madman went into a school and shot children a decade ago and over night every gun was banned, shooting clubs were banned - the government did everything it could possibly do

America will just wait for the next shooting and condemn the ''evil'' individual society had armed

guns are bad.

this is fucking ridiculous, when will America learn. i wonder who the media will blame for this now, i mean marilyn manson has been used already..... i guess people will try to blame violent video games and movies etc, which i think is bullshit.i mean c'mon violence has always been in human culture/society since the beginning of time. i don't have a problem with those things because sane people obvoiusly know that its just a form of entertainment and they aren't gonna try to copy it or be persuaded by it to go out on shootings. give me a break.


as someone said earlier in the thread, this is a problem rooted deep inside our society. and unless we stop blaming other people/things and using scapegoats, this will continue to go on. we need to take a good hard look at ourselves and get to the root of the problem.

How could the rampage of taken place in two instances, two hours apart? Why didn't the police evacuate the building after the first killing spree?


You can't speak for anyone who was shot. For all you know all the victims were in favor of more gun laws.

I personally feel that for anyone who isn't a cop or in the armed services, only rifles should be legal, and for hunting purposes only.

I went to school there and lived in Blacksburg for about 4 years after that. It's definitely not a place where you would expect something like this. Small town, pretty quiet overall...very unfortunate this happened. And not all of us Americans defend the right to bear arms, just a very vocal minority.

If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns.  A ban on alcohol didn't work.  A ban on drugs isn't working.  Why do people think a ban on weapons will be any different?

The only way it would be any different is if it becomes completely impossible for guns to be manufactured.  Ain't gonna happen.

That, if true, is something that someone is going to have to answer.

Yup.. People around here act like their countries have no problems and are perfect...  Just because school shootings dont happen alot there, dosent mean your way of life, or society, is any better...

I wonder what will happen if the murderer happens to be from Iran etc...

This is so crap, USA should rethink their gunlaws.
There are idiots all over the world, but only in USA they get armed..

Sad shit.

The shooter was Asian, don't know if he was an American citizen or what. Apparently he was looking for his girlfriend and I guess the crazy fuck just decided he'd shoot everyone until he found her.

a ban on guns did the job in britain. nobody is saying it would stop all gun crimes, but surely to take a bite out of them would be worthwhile?

I know I'll get jumped on for this but what the fuck...

Really the solution is that more mpeople should have guns.  You get a madman like this in your dorm, where do you go?  What do you do? Nothing. All you can do is wait for the police to respond, arrive, and find him. In that time span, you get a massacre.

Of course a bunch of people having guns on campus isn't exactly ideal, but all it would have taken was one well placed bullet to stop this sick fuck sooner and we wouldn't see 31 dead.

Thats true.

But maybe small quarrels will be solved with aid of a gun instead of intelectual conversation if more guns are given to people gathered on a limited area.

yeah cause a soccer mom with a beretta is going to get berserk on a big black guy with uzi ... come on.

outlaws will always be more armed than you.

i'd rather have some criminals killing each other and having trouble getting weapons, than just going around buying them like chocolate candies.

I spent allot of time in England last year, and it was weird to hear on the news... the biggest problem was teen hulligans stabbing people with knives. (Not usually resulting in death) Also having to crack down on retail store owners who sell knives to minors.

Let there be no illusion... this is the way they want it in The U.S. And it'll never change. They could also make the drug problems virtually go away tomorrow, but it'll never happen. It's the way they want it... and they get it. And I don't like it any more than you do.

I love the neglect about why we have guns in this country.  Two reasons:

1.) Once upon a time, the assholes from YOUR country decided the colonies didn't deserve a voice in Parliament.  So, we needed guns. 

2.) The great unspoken reason for gun ownership is that it is the people's last defense against the overreaching powers of their government. 

So, yes, I'll defend our right to bear arms.  The shootings today are horrible, but they'd be no less horrible if the gun(s?) had been attained illegally.  The lunatic shooter could just as easily have decided to run over his target victim, and could have mowed down any others in the vicinity with a car.  But, of course, cars aren't really controversial, and everyone has one, so we CAN'T ban cars!  The problem isn't the means of violence, it's the CAUSE of violence.  It would be no less sad if there was a mass killing by any other means.             

Since the shooter is firing no matter what, then yes, I'd rather have it be a "gun battle."  They wouldn't call it "shooting fish in a barrel" if the fish could fire back.

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/ireports/2007/04/16/ireport.va.tech.shooting.cnn


very eerie and frightning video.
when reality is way more sober and simple than all the macho gun fighting movies and games. but in the end, so much fore frightening.

the sound of the gun shots, the apparent calm ....

you know what, lets go back way further than that, what about adam and eve ?  ::)

that's what happend today ... and your guns served you well when your country got fucked in the ass by g w bush ....

do not tell me your serious.
comparing guns to cars?
so the guy is mad he is going to plan to kill a lot of people with a car ?  ::) puh-lease.

we ALL agree about the cause.
we are just stating that some specific ELEMENTS make it easier for bad things to happen. that's all.

if i'm mad and i have my fist, i'll jst break your nose.
if i have a gun, i kill you.
if i have big guns i kill a lot of people.
simple.

if Simple Joe can have a gun to protect is condo, Big Black Guy In The Hood can get a bazooka and Simple Joe dies.
simple.

This is true, I felt the statement was a little unfair, especially since the people just got mowed down.

Punk, what does mowed down means?

i know its something funny as freedom78 said it, but im not sure is it related to grass ? ;)

Shot down/bloodbath.

my bad. it's late, i guess i'm tired
well i gotta go finish a powerpoint presentation.
be good to each other.

Sick shit. I can't believe it. How can anyone take out 32 people? It's flat out disgusting. A ban on guns might help, but these incidents have a deeper cause that has to be dealt with at the roots beyond pussy-i-fication in elementary school, as they are trying now.

Give me a break, a guy is going to go around attacking people in his dorm with a car? What an analogy.  ::)

It's the ease of guns that allow people to react in such a way-all too common these days. If guns were illegal, there would be less guns, and less chance of shit like this happening.

Take the guns away, give an amnesty period, no questions asked, and anybody caught with a gun after that face harsh jail time. Simple as that. The entire "bad guys will be the only guys with guns" argument is stupid. How many crimes now are committed by bad guys with guns that were attained illegally to begin with? How many of these crimes have been aborted because we were armed as citizens?

People kill people, yea, people with guns kill more even more people.

It's shocking. What is happening to this country? Why are things not improving? How many killings before people deem it a good time to ban guns?  32 confirmed dead now....sad, sad day....

Just giving a bit of historical context.  Are you aware that to ban guns in this country would require a Constitutional Amendment, which has the following process:

1.) A two-thirds supermajority vote in both houses of Congress
2.) Approval by the legislatures of three-fourths of the states in the US

Yeah...not quite so easy as those who want to tell us how to run our country would make it seem...


While Bush is controversial and unpopular, he is still a popularly elected President, through January, 2009.  Should he abuse his power to try to retain control of this country after that, you can bet your ass I'll be arming.


You're missing the point, which is that the means of violence isn't nearly so important as its root causes.  As usual, you pick up on a simile or metaphor that you think is weak, rather than addressing the argument.  ::)


No, apparently we DON'T all agree about the cause.  Some people think guns are the cause of violence, which is silly.

Guns came about around the 15th century.  Was there violence before then?  Why, yes, in fact, on a ridiculously bloody scale!  Hmm...let me think.  The Romans, the Mongols, the Persians...nope, no guns.  Yet they conquered the fucking world in a very violent fashion. 


You're right of course.  Every time I'm mad, I pull my gun on someone.  If only I didn't do that, I'd just be breaking thousands of noses. 

Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of people would pull their gun and kill someone they're mad at, even once during their lives?  No.  Most people follow the law. 

I haven't made an argument about the types of guns that should and shouldn't be permitted, so I'm not sure why this matters.  Thirty-one people died today.  The shooter had a 9mm pistol.  That's NOT a big gun.  This has NOTHING to do with whether we should be allowed to carry automatic weapons or assault rifles. 


I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  ???

Absolutely beyond depressing. ?So fucking sad. ?

I cannot imagine how devastating this must be for the victims' families.

What the fuck is it going to take to get effective gun control legislation passed in this country? ?Do people really believe that guns will protect them against criminals or the government? ?In a battle of average citizen wth a gun vs. criminal with a gun, guess who wins? ?And protection from the government? ?What a fucking joke. ?I personally would love to see Charlton Heston and his rifle cabinet take on the most powerful military in the history of the world.

It's really quite simple, gun control legislation has reduced violent crime practically in every country in the world it's been enacted. ?It's our turn to make ourselves safer.

32? damn thats columbine x 3 almost. Thats one disgruntel mother fucker right there hope he burns in hell........ :(

well i dunno what all my fellow english people are ranting at americans for, this countries going just as bad for crimes and gun crime now.

we should ban guns just like we banned drugs.

yeah that would work great ::)

how would we fight wars and if there was a ban on guns people would still use them like they do with drugs

I think he was being sarcastic.  For example:  OK, then let's not ban anything at all, since bans on drugs have not been very effective.

Things need to change, but they never will thanks to bureaucratic douchebags.

what the fuck :no: just read about this.. what's wrong with people..



in america they should show bowling for colombine in school, most of you guys probably have already seen it, see it again..

it's so sad, i read 33 killed (could be wrong) it's a tragedy for everybody, think about the people who knew the ones getting killed.. it's hundreds of people who's directly "affected" by this..

I can't believe some people in this thread are saying more guns are the solution.


What is this trying to say?  The easy access to guns may not be the CAUSE of violence, but how the fuck does it help the situation?

cheap jon, you were right they just said on CNN 33 including the gunner (no pun intended)

R.I.P. what a damn shame :'(

God help us all...

What the fuck is wrong with people?

Britain's property crime has sky rocketed since the gun ban. ?What part of law abiding citizens don't some of you comprehend. ?The 2nd Amendment isn't about the right to hunt or even self-defense. ?It's the fundamental right of American citizens to own private firearms should their government become tyranical as was the case in the American Revolution. ?Dr. John Lott's research has shown that outlawing guns does nothing to lower crime. ?Simply look at Washington D.C. where all firearms are outlawed. ?Criminals will always have guns. ?

Even more amazing, people seem to think these school shootings are common. ?While each one is tragic, the media's expolitation is nothing but misleading. ?School crime and violence is at an all time low. ?Do some research and quit going off of opinion. ?Firearms are inanimate objects. ?Saying guns kill people is like saying spoons make Rosie O'Donell fat.

Did this movie blame video games?  I cant remember which one did that. 


A sad situation indeed  :(

Bowling For Columbine is one of the most ridiculous and dishonest movies ever made.  Moore is a oppurtunistic, worthless piece of dogshit.  Thank god he has gone into hiding after his botched get out and vote drive in 2004.

I see SLC deleted his post, maybe he found the info, I will still provide the info he requested.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493644/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5961820-0093711?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176764450&sr=8-1  --  All research shows the change in crime and gun ownership stats.


http://www.amazon.com/Bias-Against-Guns-Everything-Control/dp/0895261146/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/102-5961820-0093711?ie=UTF8&qid=1176764450&sr=8-1  -- Shows how crime rates drop proportionally to increased media coverage.


http://www.johnlott.org/  -- All data sets can be downloaded from here since I know you won't buy or borrow the book.

Lott's research has drawn plenty of criticism from his colleagues. Just because he wrote a book that supports your position does not mean anybody here agrees with it.

You think the government is coming to get us? Once our guns are taken away from us?

Look at the data sets and then make an opinion.? Lott was never funded by the NRA, only later celebrated.? His critics can't make the same claim for lack of bias, Sarah Brady has fiscal ties.


Personally, no I do not.? But it is always possible.? For someone who's vehemenetly Anti-Bush as you, I'd assume you'd not find it not too hard to believe in gestapo tactics in the near future.? Regardless, it's a fundamental right to preserve liberty.

It is his colleagues that criticize his data, and feel that he produces no real credible proof.





What it meant then and what it means now, are two totally different things entirely. Nobody is going to create a militia and fight the boogy-man and you know it.

Somebody like Bush can attack his own country without ever using a gun-in fact he already has.

http://capefeare.com/snake.gif

Is this the evil baddy criminal that will always have a gun that you are referring to?

We're talking about a college student's easy access to a gun, what is the purpose? ?To uphold some American right that was put into place 100 years ago? ?This is the 21st century, changes should be made to move forward and better everyone's lives... Especially from a country that is thought of as a world leader.

Jesus, i never thought i'd ever agree with anything this man says...quick, the calendar  :hihi:

That right has been around for more like 200 years. I agree with you about what needs to be done. I'm in college (live on campus in a dorm) and am pretty shaken right now by this even though I'm in Texas. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone impacted by this. God bless the victims.

School seems so insignificant right now it's not even funny.

What do you have to be fearful of?  there are 2700 public universites in America.  When was the last shooting prior to this.  Don't fall into the hysteria, use your head.  This is a tragedy, but sticking your head in the sand and letting your imagination get the best of you isn't helpful or healthy.

It's not necessarily that I'm fearful of something happening here, it's that the whole school thing in general seems pointless right now. Stuff like this, as terrible as it is, does serve the purpose of keeping things in perspective.

From http://www.drudgereport.com/

HE LINED STUDENTS AGAINST A WALL, THEN EXECUTIONS BEGAN...
AT LEAST 33 PEOPLE KILLED...
'Everyone Started to Panic and Jumping Out of the Window'...
ROANOKE TIMES: DETAILS...
Police Can't Identify Gunman Because He Had No ID and Shot Himself in the Face...
Asian male in his twenties wearing a maroon hat and a black coat....
Cell phone video...
TRAPPED IN CLASSROOM: Hall Doors Were Chained From Inside...
'All I saw was blood in the hallways'...
'LOVE-CRAZED KILLER: Jilted boyfriend went on rampage'...
Two 9mm handguns...

He was said to have quarreled in a dormitory with his girlfriend, whom he believed had been seeing another man. A student adviser was called to sort out the fight. But the killer produced a gun and shot dead both his girlfriend and the adviser....

Just absolutely horrible  :'(

On the contrary what do you have to be fearful of?

Hysteria? Like making sure all of us are armed in order to protect us from our government? That kind of hysteria? Some kind of government conspiracy theorist you are. Take some of your own advice and use you fucking head for a change, you hypocrite.

While I find your debate on guns interesting, isn't anyone wondering why nobody was warned after the 1st shooting that there was a murderer on campus?  There should have been a lockdown or something and 30 people could have been saved.

Yeah, it's disappointing that the first email sent to students was at 9:26. That's over 2 hours after the initial double murder was reported to police. I would have sent out that email no later than 8 AM. The kids deserved to know about that kind of thing. If that happened on my campus, I doubt I'd go to class that day if I knew about it.

SLC, I am using my head. ?I am using fact and statistic. ?I support the right to bear arms because I enjoy recreational shooting, believe in self-defense and support the basic ideal of self governance our founding fathers had. ?It amazes me how every other idea our constitution calls for is okay and valid except for the right to own firearms. ?It's not like a criminal can legally buy a gun. ?You have to pass a background check. ?Guns aren't even the primary weapon used in murder and assault. ?You sir need to quit beinga ?hypocrite, do some research and realize that guns aren't the big menace many make them out to be. ?Do you find it a bit ironic that those most against guns are those who have little to no experience or knowledge about them? ?Some analogy about the typical racist are in order. ?I'm not a government conspiracy theorist, but the day someone comes to my door to collect my legally owned and purchased firearms is the day I give them the ammunition first.

Yes, I've been wondering this all day.  And, to take it a step further, I think an email is far from effective.  I'm sure plenty of students don't check their email before classes.  They should have called every dorm, fraternity, and sorority and told them to post notices that classes were canceled due to a shooting.   

agreed - this is a total disgrace.  someone should lose their job over this and maybe more.  this is negligence on a Bush/Cheney level.

an email?  what a joke.  the place should have been on lock down.

Yeah it's very unfortunate. Hopefully every school across the country is learning from this.

Terrible. I don't get it. Why not just shoot yourself first and save everyone the trouble, instead of killing 30 people and then shooting yourself. Stupid motherfucker.

Well, if the Chicago Sun-Times is right, he might have been a Chinese terrorist.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266463,00.html


Here's the Sun-Times article about it:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/343354,vatech041607.article

Wow, you are such a man. Cold dead hands and all that.......

Hey ageless are you going to organize an NRA meeting/rally next week for that area?




I didn't catch this until it was pointed out. Wow, that's amazing.

Um, I seriously doubt he was a Chinese terrorist, but hell, what do I know...

IfwhiteAmericatoldthetruthforonedayitsworldwouldfallapart"

Next Thursday you're invited to watch Rising Tide's live coverage
of a gala tribute in salute to Ronald Reagan.
Host Haley Barbour joins special guest lady Margaret
Thatcher in celebrating the former president's 83 birthday.
Ticket's are 1000 Dollars a plate but you can see the event free on GOP TV.

Images of perfection, suntan and napalm
Grenada - Haiti - Poland - Nicaragua
Who shall we choose for our morality
I'm thinking right now of Hollywood tragedy

Big mac: smack: phoenix r: please smile y'all
Cuba, Mexico can't cauterize our discipline
Your idols speak so much of the abyss
Yet your morals only run as deep as the surface

Cool - groovy - morning - fine
(If white)
Tipper Gore was a friend of mine
(America)
I love a free country
(told the truth)
The stars and stripes and an apple for mommy
(for one day)

Conservative say: there ain't no black in the union jack
Democrat say: there ain't enough white in the stars and stripes

Compton - Harlem - a pimp fucked a priest
The white man has just found a new moral saviour
Vital stats - how white was their skin
Unimportant - just another inner-city drive-by thing

Morning - fine - serve your first coffee of the day
Real privilege, it will take your problems all away
Number one - the best - no excuse from me
I am here to serve the moral majority

Cool - groovy - morning - fine
(If white)
Tipper Gore was a friend of mine
(America)
I love a free country
(told the truth)
The stars and stripes and an apple for mommy
(for one day)

Zapruder the first to masturbate
The world's first taste of crucified grace
And we say: there's not enough black in the union jack
And we say: there's too much white in the stars and stripes

Fuck the Brady bill
Fuck the Brady bill
If God made man they say
Sam Colt made him equal

I have posted these lyricsa mainly because of the double meaning. The first on is the more obvious hypocrosy of American foreign policy and the 2nd which is with regards to hypocritical gun culture.

I feel so sorry for the victims of this tragedy, but like columbine im almost expecting hollywood to turn this into a film. The sooner US starts to look at there own gun culture the better. Do you need guns to live day to day?

Answer no. People will always kill each otehr over nothing its nature for you, but if you lessen the risk then theres killings become less frequent worked somewhat in the UK, why not the US and after columbine and now this why not start now.

it's absurd...This world is going mad...That's not love, that;s illness...

i never got the point.

so just in case the government go all tyrannical on you, you've all got guns to take them down? ???

i don't know about you, maybe that would have worked in the 1700's, but right now it wouldn't do anything. the army is far too powerful even against a shitload of gun crazed civillian militia.

there are otherways to overthrow a government. you've had the chance to do it every 4 years i think. its called voting.

and to the people saying "oh people kill people guns are just a means". well fucking duh, but with a gun somebody can take out 30+ people.

just look at other countries with gun control. i don't remember any school shootings here in Australia or in the UK. yeah they happen rarely in the US. but wouldn't you want them to not happen at ALL. how many times are you just gonna turn a blind eye and say "oh well.........it was a sick person..................but we love our guns because they protect us from the bad guys".

the other day....i heard a story from my old highschool that some kid tried to stab another kid with scissors. infact he accomplished that and the ambulance was called. luckily he didn't pierce any vital organs. just think what would happen if the kid was able to get a gun.

once i saw on the news at some school some kid brought a crossbow and fired it at a girl he hated. luckily it only pierced right through her shoulder. just think if that lunatic had a gun.

there are some real nuts out there. why make it easier for them to fulfill their desires of killing someone else or even multiple people.

So you're condoning a reactionary measure? ?you're saying because of one isolated incident, banning every firearm in the UK overnight was justified? ?What about rationale discourse. ?Just because one dog bites someone doesn't mean we euthanize all of our canine companions. ?You mentioning this as a positive shows just how emotional this issue is. ?Rather than look at it objectively, people assert that guns are bad and refuse to listen to anything that shows that to be bullshit.

It appears that this man was an international student, meaning he wasn't legally allowed to own guns - so he got them illegally!!!!!! ? He had chains to lock the doors and magazines loaded with ammo as well as possibly made the three bomb threats the week prior to gauge response time. ?In other words this was pre-meditated. ?The legal access to fireamrs wasn't a factor and he could have easily constructed a bomb or conceived another method if he was this helll bent on murdering people. ?If all these reports turn out to be true, no gun law in the world could have stopped this. ?There were over 100 guns laws in play at Columbine too, but criminals don't give a fuck about the law. ?Law abiding citizens don't murder people and I'd be willing to wager not a single one of you can show me a trend where people get angry, hop down to the gun store, buy a gun and blow someone away. ?It doesn't happen.

In the entire 20th century, only one murder was committed with a legally owned machine gun in the United States, and the criminal was a cop. ?Do some fucking research on the issue and think rather than feel. ?More babies drown in 5 gallon buckets every year then are shot, but you never here about that. ?The whole gun issue is a media driven frenzy bought into and repeated by idiots. ?The right to bear arms is the most important freedom we have and every objective study shows that crime rates are dropping while gun ownership increases. ?Concealed weapons holders are statistically more law abiding than policeman; the people some of you think should be the only ones armed.

School shootings do happen in gun control countries.  One happened in Europe just last year, Germany I believe.  Your examples show how little you know about guns or the weapons you mention.  In many aspects it would be worse to be shot with a cross bow than a gun.  A cross bow is meant to continually cut and cause internal bleeding while a bullet is designed to go straight through.  How you can compare a student with scissors to a gun is beyond me.

Children can't have access to handguns legally, so only irresponsible adults can allow that access.  That's what this ultimately comes down to on both sides of the coin.  The personal responsibility to be able to defend oneself with appropriate means (everyone in Switzerland is required to have a firearm) while being responsible in sotrage and use of said weapon.  Many of you are simple projecting your own behaviors onto others.  The fact that many of you are so reactionary and emotional is justification why maybe you shouldn't have a gun, but not why I shouldn't. 

I love how some of you are like, "we can't beat the Army, so why even bother."  Wow, talk about cowardice and not believing in something.  Assuming that the Army was on teh side of a tyranical leader, and that is a safe assumption,  wouldn't it be better to die trying to save your country and freedoms rather than being a slave.  You can vote until you're blue in the face but that won't mean shit to a tyrnaical government,; you'd have no way to enforce your vote.

I'm done ranting for a while, I need to get away from all this kindergarden politics.

Could someone point out how easy it is to get a gun in us?

Here we need a license.

It's sad what happened and maybe if someone would've carried a gun, he could've shot the gunman. Or even a stungun.

Then again, even with our gun policy here, even I know the people to call if I need one. So I don't really think banning all the guns would be a soltution.

I've never understood what's  the point of anyone(not involved with law enforcement etc etc.)being able to buy a gun that is only ment and designed for killing other people. It's incredibly stupid. The fact that gun laws at U.S are still loose as hell 18th century bullshit is even more stupid. How there isn't any more outrage around making gun laws much more strict in there..it's completely beyond my understanding.
Just what the fuck is the point of someone being able to go and legally  buy a say, a magnum  or some semi automatic assault rifle.There is absolutely no sense in that.
Hunting rifles/sharpshooting stuff and whatnot isn't entirely different matter..It's not like it was impossible to kill someone with a shotgun..But atleast being able to buy one legally is somethign that fits into my understanding of what is remotely rational.Atleast they aren't designed to kill as many humans as possible as efficiently as possible.

THE SHooter was a English major CHO SEUNG -HUI , 23 yrs old. Whoi was a student .

south korean?
blame it on mmorpg ....

There's still no confirmation on how he purchased the gun, other than a vague mention of finding "receipts" for a Glock 9mm in his backpack. ?Doesn't sound like an illegal purchase to me. ?We'll find out soon enough.

Gun control seems to be working rather well in Great Britain, where there were a total of 46 homicides involving firearms last year. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, had 579 homicides last year. ?Still, it must really suck not being able to shoot firearms for fun and God only knows how frightening it must be to be at the mercy of Prince Charles' tyrranical whim.

The gunman responsible for at least the second of the two Virginia Tech attacks that claimed 33 lives to become the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history has been identified Cho Seung-Hui, a campus student and native of South Korea, Virginia Tech police said Tuesday.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said the shooter was a 23-year-old resident alien who was an undergraduate senior English major. He had a residence in Centreville, Va., but was also living on campus in Harper Hall.

There is also talk that he possibly phoned in the 2 bomb threats the week earlier to test the security of campus.  They also announced that the same gun was used in both shootings.

Such an tragedy

Maybe the contacts he got the weapons from got them legally due to the easy accessibillty?
Access and crime goes hand in hand.

Not saying ancient and extreme gunlaws is the reason this happen but we don't want the world society to develope in this direction where civilians cary any type of firearms anywhere.
There ARE places in the world more brutal than USA tho, Russia, middle-east etc

I support self-defence but this is should be acheived in non-lethal means...such as stun-guns, alarms, tear-gas etc, less effective but security-personel is alternative means before you arm civilians with guns

He may have had a receipt for the gun.

Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a Glock 9 mm pistol, purchased in March. Witnesses had told authorities that the shooter was carrying a backpack. Police also said this morning that Cho had a .22 caliber pistol. Sections of chain similar to those used to lock the main doors at Norris Hall, the site of the second shooting that left 31 dead, were also found inside a Virginia Tech dormitory, sources confirmed to ABC News.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108&page=1

I seriously can't understand why some people are so fanatic about not losing the right to bear arms...

Over here it is almost impossible to get a gun you have to go trough all kinds of tests and when you do finally get one you either have to leave it at the gunclub or you can take it home and put the ammo in one safe and the gun itself in another safe on the other side of the house...

did this kid commit suicide after the shooting or did the police take him down ?

Gun control in the US is a tricky issue because, like other issues, it's very much divided up between central and state control.  In 1994, the US passed the "Brady Bill" which imposed a five day waiting period, during which a background check (specifically for criminal records) is done.  This law has fluctuated some since then, and I'm uncertain about exactly how it presently works. 

However, MOST gun control is done on a state by state basis.  So, the length of a waiting period, the types of conceal and carry permits available, licenses for hunting, and so forth vary a great deal based on where you live.  For example, in my state of residence (Illinois), you have to apply for a FOID (Firearm Owners Identification) card, which is essentially a license, and has your photo on it.  Your application is handled by the Illinois State Police, who check your criminal record and are the ones who issue the license.  You also have to be a citizen or resident alien (I'm not sure yesterday's shooter is a resident alien...?).

I'm sure other states have similar measures, but as they vary by state, I'm far from an expert.

There are a few types of gun violence that have plagued the US.

First, there are those families whose children think the family gun is "cool," and want to show it to friends, and then there's an accident.  I, personally, blame this one on the parents, for not educating their children about guns and for not having them inaccessible by the children. 

Second, there is a great wealth of illegal weaponry, much of which is used in gang violence and other criminal actions.  It is either illegal by type (some assault weapons; modified weapons such as sawed-off shotguns) or because the purchaser is not entitled to possess firearms due to a criminal record or some other reason. 

I don't have any numbers regarding the percentage of violent gun crimes carried out by someone who is legally entitled to the weapon and who purchased it legally, versus those where the crime is carried out using an illegal weapon.  And, because of the bitter division between the pro and anti-gun lobbies, I don't really trust the numbers that come from either side. 


Well, in the US it's part of our Constitution, and most Americans, rightly or wrongly, treat the Constitution as sacred and are very hesitant to support changes therein.  And, as I stated earlier in this thread, changing the US Constitution is a long and difficult process. 

Suicide, the police never fired a shot apparently.  He barricaded the doors and it was all over by the time they broke it down.

tragic :no:

my thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims :'(

Well, if we are going to blame the government for gun control laws then let's blame the US government for our immigration policies as well. Another crime by a "resident" alien-not an American citizen. Couple that with all the illegal alien crimes, 911, and well, you get my point. Fine, get rid of guns, but let's also get rid of anyone and everyone who is not a US citizen. Until we get a handle on the war on terroism and on our own poverty issues with our own citizens, maybe it is time to really shut the borders down. Get the fuck out of Iraq and shut the borders stone cold down. I know that will never happen because our politicians are too fucking corrupt and money hungry, but one can dream. What a fucked up mess our society has become.....the Fall of the Roman Empire part 2....except we have only been around 250 years. :rant:

this is horrible

verysad for young people

There are disagreements concerning what exactly that part of the Constitution means.  The only opinion that matters, the Supreme Court's, is that it is not an individual's right to bear arms but the right of states to keep an armed militia.  More importantly, no gun control law has ever been declared unconstitutional.

Dunblane in Scotland 1996.? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_Massacre

? I hear what you are saying, but also although the UK has a far lower rate of gun crime than US, what is worrying here is the reasons and ages that people are getting guns and using them.? I'm talking about 13/14/15/16 year olds blowing each other away for lack of respect.? its something I think will increase in the UK.? Although guns are illegal, it is extremely easy to buy one in London certainly. A lot of drug dealers sell guns and ammo on the side - and they are dirrrrrrt cheap.? what price a life??? It's devastating.?

my heart goes out to everyone affected by this tragedy.

Oh, I know there are disagreements, and I agree with you that the Supreme Court has the opinion that matters. 

But there has been a gun control law that was ruled unconstitutional.  The provision in the Brady Bill that forced state/local law enforcement to perform background checks was found unconstitutional, under the 10th Amendment.  This decision is now relatively unimportant, as far as the Brady Bill goes, because of the national database, which makes such background checks less of a task. 

Of course, it still illustrates the basic belief of the Court that this is a matter primarily for the states to handle.

dishonest? ok, showing the statistics of killings in the states and compare it to all other big countries in the world.. it's something wrong with that country when it comes to shit like this.. i mean a country where some banks gives you a free gun when you open an account on the bank..

it's sick and there's so many to blame that you can't blame anyone :no:

You're right, should have said no such laws were found to violate the 2nd Amendment.

The problem with delegating this issue to the states is that guns will simply be acquired in states without the restrictions. 

That's true, though I question the extent to which most criminals seek out legally purchased guns.  After all, if you intend to commit a crime, it's probably worth the effort to make sure the gun isn't licensed to you. 

The advantage to state controls, though, is that you have 51 distinct approaches, and there's an opportunity to see what really works and what doesn't.  I think DC is evidence that a simple ban on guns will not solve gun violence in this country (at least for major metropolitan areas).  But if you think of gun violence as being one of two types (guns connected to larger levels of criminal activity vs. previously non-criminals who use then use a gun in a violent conflict), then I consider the former to be a far more serious problem.  And, I think it is largely tied to other problems that plague the US and, in particular, US cities.  Poverty and crime go hand in hand.  And, where there's crime, there are also illegal weapons.  To fix America's gun problem, you can't simply ban guns.  I truly don't believe it will work.  It's like trying to keep the Titanic from sinking by giving it a fresh coat of paint.  You really need to get to the root causes of violence, such as poverty, inner city education, and so forth.  Give inner city youths a choice that's better than joining gangs and dealing drugs. 

Of course, this has little to do with yesterday's shooting.  When someone is committed to killing on a mass level, and then committing suicide...well, the repercussions for violence matter little when you plan on taking your own life, anyway.

What this country REALLY needs is an open and honest gun debate.  Not the one raging between the Brady Campaign and the NRA, which is so full of bullshit and rhetoric that you couldn't find the truth if it bit you, but a REAL debate about what is necessary for self defense and what is not, and how to reign in gun violence by getting rid of its root causes.  There are tough questions to be asked and answered, but just like any political situation, little will be accomplished if this is left purely in the hands of the lobbies and the politicians beholden to them.

Nothing wrong with the Gun Laws.

U cant throw blame around cause one deranged idiot goes on a shooting spree.

People will always kill other people. People since the beginning of time didnt need guns to mass murder people right?

Every campus needs armed guards basically. I don't understand how 30 people just let someone kill them. I say rush the motherfucking piece of shit bastard. Maybe 2 or 3 get killed but they would've been able to tackle him and disarm the bitch.

Stuff like this really infuriates me to no end. If u hate life do everyone a favor. Go out to a secluded beach,forest, mountain range or in the comfort of your own home. Put the gun in your mouth and blow your brains out. Dont take innocent people's lives just cause your life sucks.

I hear ya!  In fact, I'm willing to bet he'd have trouble getting good shots off, while being rushed.  Sure as hell beats dying execution style.  But, it's hard to say what happened.  There have to be some serious moments of shock and confusion, so far be it for me to criticize those in such a situation.  It's just a shame that no one stepped up to the plate to interfere with this guy (before or during his crime). 

This is shocking news :o  lt was on BBC news this morning 3 times and l heard it on the Radio numerous times while l was working, there was even an interview with one of the survivors on the news this morning, he said that he was targeted but managed to get away quickly .

to all those who have been murdered

R.I.P  :'(

you yanks really need to change something in the ammendment, to stop these kinda of things happening!!!!

...the 33 dead at this campus???


oh but we can - that gun didnt grew on a tree, it was available for him to purchase - and why was that?


...a man with a knife wont be able to kill 33 people in one go....think about it

a man with a knife might have got one, maybe two before he was taken down



....?!?

so there is no problem with guns....except you cant rely on being safe anywhere?

over here we dont have armed guards, and guess what - we have a handful of shootings a year in a population of 62 million


you have to be drunk to say something like that

a decent pistol can have 15 rounds - thats 15 dead, and a pro can reload in seconds, even an amaeteur could clean out a room with ease - this isnt the matrix, you cant dodge a bullet

if this clown had taken in a machine gun he could have fended off hundreds - that was after all the idea behind their design


there will always be madmen - but take away their guns and they are considerably less dangerous

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page8.asp

just follow that link, thats official government figures on crime, backed by independent research - burglary has fallen from over 700,000 cases to 344,563 since 1993

The ban on gun clubs came during that period. In case you hadnt worked that out.

'Burglary in a dwelling' - Long-term national recorded crime trend
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/IzzyHTGTH/TREND_Burglary_in_a_dwelling_06.gif)

Here are some significant crime statistics from our most recent research, Crime in England and Wales 2005-2006:
shows the risk of being a victim of crime is 23% - the lowest level since the British Crime Survey began in 1981
reveals crime has fallen by 44%, representing 8.4 million fewer crimes
shows domestic burglary and all vehicle thefts falling by over a half (59% and 60% respectively) 

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/crime-statistics/?view=Standard

How does it feel to be revealed as clueless?

Enjoy :-*

I'm shocked at your incredible stupidity.
Utterly moronic. Nothing short of retarded.

Let's see how you would handle the situation if a gunman stormed your school and started shooting your friends, let's see how you keep your cool.

How the fuck can you say they let him kill them?

I hate these "clever" know-it-all comments whenever a horrible tragedy occurs. Next time think before you post and show some respect towards the victims you stupid fuck.

dont rush your analysis too.
things can happen.
and as you said no one really know how they will react in such situations. so it's VERY plausible that some of us - and not the biggest ones - would do something aggressive towards the shooter, like tackle him, and from there anything is possible.

the fact that " we don't keep it cool" pretty much destroy any rational analysis you would do ....

For those of you foaming at the mouth about gun control, they are saying that both guns used in yesterday's tragedy had the serial numbers filed down. That usually means that the weapons were bought from some back-alley thug, not a legal gun store. Laws do not prevent killers from committing crimes! They are already planning on murder, so illegally obtaining a weapon is the least of their concerns. Gun purchases should not be completely unrestricted, but strict gun control only prevents good law-abiding citizens from obtaining guns. Criminals will still obtain them through the same illegal means that they do now.

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-browstone-page-2/20070417142209990002

One of the documents just released.

What exactly is it??

EDIT: I see now it is a play he wrote.

Some play he wrote.

comparing a stupid math teacher to being addicted to heroin?   :-\

yea this guy was definitely out there.

Oh boy.  Here we go.

I don't think he got the drug reference.

He may have been among us here. Maybe he was  that dick head that was posting gay porn last fall.

THAT would be creepy.  Is there a way to do an age search on the member lists?

You mean this guy? The one with the gay porn: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=8804

Theres no definitive correlation.  The name "Mr. Brownstone" might be inspired by the song, it might just be a name he thought of.

i dont see why this has anything to do with GnR.

it all comes back to Ozzy being hit with this subliminal messages shit and also marilyn manson. its just stupid.

music is music, and i never heard any music that made me want to kill people. i hate that asshole lawyers and governments try and blame music for what essentially is someone having pyschological problems

Quote from his roommate...

Mr. Aust and Mr. Grewal, 21, said he was often on his computer.

?When he was in the room, he would spend a lot of time on his computer, downloading music and stuff,? Mr. Aust. said. There was no single style of music that he particularly liked in particular, from rock to country to pop.

Mr. Cho was often out of the room.

 :nervous: :hihi:

yea he gets it, read the whole thing.. theres a whole page on there of them quoting the lyrics.

Wow, very eerie.

Good find, Dunkin Dave.

Definitely demonstrates that he had an interest in GnR.

No he Quotes the lyrics from the song as well


But it doesnt mean he was a big fan

Wow, that is pretty odd. I think you can tell from the play that he was quite disturbed  :no:

I didnt even catch that.

Plus, he mentions the song and the band directly in the piece....

yay.....another "the music made him do it" court case ::)

There's a picture of an asian guy and "Stick to your guns." :nervous:

I heard he was from Salt Lake City and considered himself a "punk".























Just kidding.

someone probably asked already, but where you from polluxim? just out of interest : ok:

from the news reports ive heard, the guns were bought legitimately.

Get this sick, out-of-place and disrespectful topic out of the GN'R section now.

I aggree...this is unhealthy and off-topic.


Although, he did use GUNS to do the massacre.  What does that tell you?

And that play he wrote sucked anyways.

I wonder if he ever got a chance to see the new band play live. 

Back in 2k1,
Yet another school shooting
Happened at college...

The newspaper said
That 2 heroic students
Tackled the gunman

And wrestled him down.
What they failed to report, though,
Was that the heroes

Had guns in their cars!
They trained them on the shooter
Until he dropped his

And then held him down.
If more students had had guns,
This would not happen.

And before you say
"If there were no guns at all,
All this matters not!"

Let me remind you
That, indeed, most criminals
Own illegal guns.

Law doesn't matter
When it comes to criminals,
And rehab?  A joke.

These people must DIE
By either state or layman
To keep people safe.

If that means MORE guns,
Then I am all in favor.
Good must SLAY evil.

Splash

/Mike

I think he's from Germany...

nice poem.

Yeah, I see it now.  I didnt realize there was more than one page.

this is absurd.

get this shit out of the GN'R section.

it is disguisting to see and does nothing but discourage and make GN'R fans uncomfortable.

STOP COMMENTING ON IT YOU STUPID FUCKS!! and yes i will indeed take my own advince.

let this topic die.

Indeed, thanks, my friend!
I don't have much time, so
Haikus improvised!

Splash

/Mike

There's a reason you're not a moderator, so I suggest you stop trying to act like one.

way to go with trying to make a connection between GN'R and these killings you sick son of a bitch.

What's "disguisting" mean?
And, indeed, how 'bout "advince"?
(If you're ESL,

I apologize
And I wish you no ill will.
If not, use spellcheck!!!!) ?:P

Splash

/Mike

oh no, a typo :nervous:
and yes, it's "disguisting".

and while you're on the topic of correct typing, slow down with the exclamation marks.

There's only two of the letter "i" in "disgusting," Mr. Quayle.

Desperation. It's always funny.

You take a funny stance here, my unfriend. You accuse Michael of going overkill with the grammar bit, yet you prance around like some vigilante mod, letting go a disproportionate amount of overkill ALL THE TIME. You antithetical bastard.

Get a clue.

I didn't say it had to do with the killings - all I said was the killer was a Guns N' Roses fan.

You're an idiot.

what the fuck does that have to do with GN'R?
why did you have to mention it at all? to cause a stir?

it's pretty clear that the only idiot here is you.

Surely not a great place to see Guns, but figured I'd pass it along.

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

This is the text of a play he wrote that references "Mr. Brownstone."

Be sure to take a moment and have a good thought for those affected by this horrendous tragedy.

Here is the murderer himself!

(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/news/2007/04/17/cho_seung_hui_lg.jpg)

Good thing he killed himself! Saved the tax payers a tremendous amount of money and spoiled the story blitz of a trial there would've been by the media.

I was just about to post that...how weird is that? Wonder what that is all about?

I wouldnt line up against a fuckin wall, I wouldnt sit in my seat on a fuckin airplane and let someone just murder me without a fight.

Im not blaming the students for their lives being taken but There is no way in hell if someone broke into my school or home that I would just get on my knees and LET them blow my brains out.

Sure I'd 9 out of 10 times probably end up dying anyway but I know if I line up against a wall everybody dies. So maybe if a few of us rush him from different angles, Maybe one of us dies, but at least everyone else lives.


U ARE A FUCKIN PUSSY that would probably stand by or run away and let someone rape your mother.

Yeah, curious that in the 4 deadliest mass shootings in American history, none of the 5 shooters were taken alive. But I guess that's what is so dangerous about suicidals.

Here's the link...complete with GNR lyrics.  I can't wait to see the shitstorm this creates:

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

Peace,

SBM

This should delay CD even more ....   

One again, Izzy here to spread lies and disinformation.  As you can see, Izzy's graph indicates burglary, not violent crime.  The chart shows crime steadily dropping since 1981.  The Britain gun law was not enacted until 1997, 16 years later.  To claim a correlation between the two is dishonest.  But WAIT FOLKS!!!!  Here is a BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/1440764.stm that claims gun crime rose 40%!!!! after the 1997 gun ban in England.   So in other words, theft was steadily falling prior to the gun ban, conitnued to fall afterwards but at a slower rate and GUN CRIME ROSE 40%!!!! after the ban.

Enjoy  :-*

This is the guy? He looks like a wimp.

No wonder he needed guns, there's no way whatsoever he'd take anyone down if he hadn't had firepower!

I agree with D in this, I would've tried to take this motherfucker down.

The we'd see if he hits a moving target.

well said Mike. ?For those who don't know, this was the infamous Appalacian Law School

God damn it.  You've got to be fucking kidding.  You just know some asshole will freak over this. 

"When the shit hits the fan, it was all I could stand."

By the way, for a senior English major, that's a pretty fuckin' horrible story.  I hope when our young mass murderer arrives at the pearly gates, Mr. Brownstone is once again there to fuck him over.  Asshole.

I'm not familiar with these figures, but I do have a hypothesis that if we remove all penises, we can reduce rape by 100%!

However, restroom-cleanliness-related domestic violence would go up significantly.

You sir have forgotten about stap ons and other forms of penetration. Although I have no doubt some of our members would support castration to end rape.

Bet you can't find one (1).

Democrats signal wariness on gun laws

WASHINGTON - Democratic congressional leaders signaled Tuesday that they will not move swiftly to try to enact gun control legislation in the wake of Monday?s killings of 33 people at Virginia Tech.

In a briefing for reporters Tuesday, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Maryland did not commit himself to action on any specific legislation.

?The country and the Congress will have additional discussions, as is always the case after an incident, particularly one of this scope and tragic consequences,? said Hoyer. He added, ?I don?t want to get into a debate with reference to what we need to do? in terms of legislation merely 24 hours after the shootings.

But in what may be an early test of House sentiment on gun regulation, Hoyer said the Democratic leadership would bring up for debate on Thursday a bill that would give the District of Columbia?s non-voting delegate the same voting rights that representatives have.

Attempt to overturn D.C. gun ban
A House vote on that bill was delayed last month by a GOP maneuver that would have overturned the District?s nearly total ban on gun possession.

When a reporter asked Hoyer whether Monday?s shooting would make it harder for the Republicans to again try to use the gun ban to derail the representation bill, he said, ?I would hope.?

But it wasn?t clear whether there will be a vote on overturning the D.C. gun ban or whether Democratic leaders will use a parliamentary tactic to avoid a vote.

Many Democrats shied away from discussing gun policy proposals Tuesday, saying it would be unseemly so soon after the massacre.

Asked whether Congress should reenact a 1994 ban on certain types of semi-automatic weapons, freshman Sen. Jon Tester, D?Montana said, ?Really, to talk about anything to do with weapons at this point is way, way, way too insensitive and way, way, way too premature.?

Elected last November, Tester is a strong supporter of gun owners? rights.

Caution from Montana Democrat
His Montana colleague, Sen. Max Baucus, who is up for re-election next year and who voted in 2004 against extending the ban on certain types of semi-automatic weapons, sounded a note of caution, ?Let?s just let people think a little bit about all of this. All of this requires a lot of careful thought? let?s get more information first.?

Sen. Charles Schumer, D- N.Y., told reporters, ?When I feel it?s appropriate ? which will be in a few days after we get over the grieving and all of that ? I?ll talk about it.?

Schumer spearheaded Democratic efforts to regulate guns when he served in the House in the 1990s. But last year as head of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee he made a point of supporting strong gun rights advocates as Senate candidates in GOP-dominated states.

Schumer?s pick in Montana, Tester, told one sportsmen?s group during the campaign, according to the Associated Press, ?I am pro-gun, I've got a lot of ?em. And what I tell folks is because of the Patriot Act we damn well better keep ?em."

In Virginia, Democratic candidate Jim Webb was likewise a supporter of gun owners? rights.

Webb had argued in his 2004 book ?Born Fighting? that Al Gore?s ?position on gun control cost him the election (in 2000), not in Florida but in the Scots-Irish redoubts of Tennessee and West Virginia, both of which through history and logic should have been slam-dunk electoral votes in his favor.?

In his second debate with Bush in 2000, Gore had boasted that he?d cast the tie-breaking Senate vote on a bill to curb sales at gun shows.

Webb on Monday called the Virginia Tech shootings ?an incredible human tragedy,? but like other members of Congress did not address legislation or policy.

Last month Webb used the arrest of one his aides for unwittingly carrying a gun into a Senate office building to underscore his support for gun owners? rights.

When asked if he thought the D.C. gun ban should be overturned, Webb stressed his support for the Second Amendment and added, ?I believe the Virginia law (which allows law-abiding people to carry guns) is a fair law. I believe that wherever you see laws that allow people to carry (weapons), generally the violence goes down.?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18138352/

I post this story for two reasons:

1.) Even though I am moderately pro-gun, it illustrates that nothing will get done politically as long as it could be costly at the polls. 

2.) For those pointing out the paranoia of the pro-gun opinion that they're the last defense against the overreaching of the government, italicized is a quote from a Democratic Senator who seems to share that position.

I applaud our leaders for taking a rationale stance on this tragedy and not acting on emotion like our friends across the pond.

Quite. If only they'd shown the same restraint consistently for the last six years. Or more, depending on your point of view.   

Here is his play "Mr. Brownstone."

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

More info from Izzy's own source.? Is selective reading a possibility?? ?I THINK SO......



'Violent crime' - Long-term national recorded crime trend

?
(http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/files/images/TREND_TOTAL_VIOLENT_CRIME_06.gif)



Source: Research Development & Statistics (CRCSG) Home Office

There were 1,220,198 recorded violent crimes in 2005/06, an increase of? two per cent.
Of these, 17 per cent were common assault (including assault on a constable) and 20 cent harassment, both of which involve no physical injury to the victim.? In addition, many of the 'less serious woundings' (43 per cent of violent crime) will have resulted in minor injuries, such as bruises, grazes and black eyes.
Understanding the chart

Numbers of recorded crimes are affected by changes in reporting and recording practices.? Expanded coverage and revised Counting Rules came into effect in April 1998. The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced nationally in April 2002. The national impact in 2002/03 was estimated to be 20% per cent for all violent crime.
Data for the British Transport Police are included from 2002/03 onwards.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page66.asp

---

Again, keep in mind the gun ban was put into affect in 1997.? Granted they changed their measuring standard in 1998 which I will assume account for the drastic jump, but look at how it continually raises.? ?If you think britain is bad, just wait to see Austrailia's increase in crime - you ain't seen nothing yet.


I say again Izzy.? How does it feel to be revealed as clueless and a pompous asshole who's been called out?? :-*

I read it earlier, disturbing and weird. AND he added almost all of the lyrics to Mr. Brownstone,  :(

Here's some more stats from justfacts.com and gunfacts.com.

Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times.

Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%


Myth: If it saves the life of one child, it is worth it
Fact:
Firearms in private hands are used 2.5 million times each year to prevent crime, or 6,849 times every day 138, including rapes, aggravated assaults, and kidnapping. The number of innocent children protected by firearm owning parents far outweighs the number hurt by guns.

Myth: Assault weapons are a serious problem in the U.S.
Fact:
In 1994, before the Federal "assault weapons ban", you were eleven (11) times more likely to be beaten to death than to be killed by an ?assault weapon?.142 In the first year since the
ban was lifted, murders declined 3.6%, and violent crime 1.7%.143


Fact:
Nationally, ?assault weapons? were used in 1.4% of crimes involving firearms and 0.25% of all violent crime before the enactment of any national or state ?assault weapons? ban. In
many major urban areas (San Antonio, Mobile, Nashville, etc.) and some entire states (Maryland, New Jersey, etc.) the rate is less than 0.1%144


Fact:
Even weapons misclassified as ?assault weapons? (common in the former Federal and California "assault weapons" confiscations) are used in less than 1% of all homicides.

Myth: Banning ?Saturday Night Specials? reduces crime
Fact:
This was the conclusion of the Johns Hopkins University Center for Gun Policy and Research ? and it is wrong. They studied firearm homicide rates from Maryland after passage of a Saturday Night Special ban in 1998. Seems the firearm homicide rate has gone up and stayed
up, while the homicide rate declined over the rest of the country.241


Fact:
Even banning guns does not slow down criminals. In the U.K., where private ownershipof firearms is practically forbidden, criminals have and use guns regularly, and even build their own. One enterprising fellow converted 170 starter?s pistols to functioning firearms and sold them to gangs. Hundreds of such underground gun factories have been established, contributing
to a 35% jump in gun violence.



Myth: Private ownership of guns is not effective in
preventing crime
Fact:
Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times ? more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.264 Of
these instances, 15.6% of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so.


Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives.
Fact:
In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense.


Fact:
Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.


Fact:
Less than 8% of the time does a citizen wound his or her attacker, and in less than one in a thousand instances is the attacker killed.265


Fact:
For every accidental death, suicide or homicide with a firearm, 10 lives are saved through defensive use.


Fact:
When using guns in self-defense266:


?
83% of robbery victims were not injured


?
88% of assault victims were not hurt


?
76% of all self-defense use of guns never involve firing a single shot


Fact:
After the implementation of Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun possession for protection, the ?breaking and entering? crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the American rate.267


Myth: Only police should have guns
Fact:
?. . .most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.?268


Fact:
11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person.

and you are a delusional little macho fuck with no clue on reality.
long as you talk about how i'd watch my mother get raped, here is what i'd stand by and watch:
if i had the chance to save you from drowning i would easily walk away. have a goodd ay now.

^
I'd never drown cause I wouldn't go deep into waters without a life jacket. U are calling me an ignorant whatever u spewed out cause I said I would've been active and not just let someone kill me. whats wrong with sayin that? I value my life way too much to let some asshole take it without a fight. Im not tryin to sound tough or macho, I am just tellin it like it is. Pussies like u would r un and hide and let your friends die.

I wouldnt, id do whatever possible to save lives.


Va Tech passed a law banning faculty from carrying concealed handguns that they had been properly trained to use. If the faculty had their guns, 20 some people would've been saved.

So I hate the bullshit gun control argument.


Our Death rate by Handguns is an inflated statistic thanks to Gangs and other groups who illegally obtain firearms and use them for crime.

I guarantee the crime rate for registered handguns is extremely low.? U outlaw guns and the United States would be overran with crime.

i guess you are prepared for anything, huh?
what will it take for you to understand that human beings react differently in situations with extreme danger that come unexpected than they would in their dreams where they are not stricken with fear?
i bet you would just be waiting for a gunman to enter the room so you could put him in a headlock, huh? what are you he-man? understand that panic and fear is a factor most people cannot control in these situations, no matter how much tv they watch.

edit: i can't believe you debate by saying i'd let my mother get raped and my friends die.

mr. tough macho talker over the internet, the only person i would let die is you.

That's the stupidest thing I've read today. I bet the murder statistics are unfairly inflated by serial killings and mass murder too? Because they don't really count, right?

what do you expect from this machoman, his manhood depends on defending his country's gunlaws.

Well, that's probably not true.

Afraid so.

The handguns used in the murders had the serial number filed down which means they were stolen or obtained illegally.

Getting rid of guns will not solve any problems whatsoever.

Getting rid of illegal guns will.


so many americans are murdered by illegally obtained guns which makes our gun death rate seem so high. Americans who go through the proper channels, dont go around killing people at record high clips.

Oh,  I see. What you're saying is that it's really only criminals who commit gun crimes. Thanks for clearing that up. If only you had some way of taking the guns away from the criminals, I bet all that gun crime would disappear overnight.

Except for this last asshole at VT, huh?

^
Has it been said how he obtained the guns? were they legally registered to him?


Back to my point though, if the faculty were allowed to carry their concealed handguns, He wouldn't have had free reign in his murders.


Remember the law school in Virginia where the guy shot 3 people? only reason he killed just 3 was cause students who had Concealed handgun licenses got the drop on him and aborted his mass murder plan.


In a perfect world, Sure u could get rid of every gun, every weapon but that isnt realistic. I mean hell, lets throw in a cure for Aids and cancer while we are at it.

Criminals with weapons vs innocent everyday people with no weapons would be an unbelievably scary world to live in.


Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%

Only three people were shot and killed? This is a pro-gun argument?

^
I dont understand your point?

The guy killed 3 but had the other students not had guns, he probably kills 30 or 40. Surely u can tell the difference in 3 as opposed to 30 or 40 right?

Lets say there was a 6 month ban on purchasing a gun. the guy waits 6 months and kills people.

I guess we shouldnt let kids play Halo, we should ban all music and movies and we all should sit in our fuckin houses with the doors locked right?


Outside of banning guns permanently, I don't see any logic in tougher gun control laws.

The guy was a college student with no record. He passed all the background checks, waited and was granted a handgun.

As I stated above, if there were a 1 year waiting period, He would've waited a year to carry this out.

Only thing that could've saved those people's lives were if faculty members or other students were carrying guns.


Reminds me of something my dad told me once.

My dad was a baliff for a district court judge and this lady after her case was heard and after she was granted a restraining order against her husband asked the judge, "This means he won't kill me right"

The judge answered: "Well ma'am, that paper isnt bulletproof."

Regulate guns all u want, people will always be able to obtain one illegally if they want one bad enough. Making it harder for innoncent law abiding citizens to obtain guns, won't make it any safer in the world.

You might understand my point if you don't try to force some retarded "Halo!Music!Movies!" bullshit on me. Thanks. I think the point may have been; Thanks to a firearm the guy was able to shoot and kill three people before another schmuck with a gun could put him down. That isn't a positive thing. That isn't a convincing argument for either retaining lax gun laws or allowing concealed weapons in the schoolroom. And isn't it extremely obvious that the shooter would have killed fewer people if no-one on campus, including him,  had a gun?

Here's a better idea than allowing the general population to carry guns; Take 90% of the cops currently wasting our time and money on traffic violations and put them on the street, in the schoolyard, wherever they would best protect and serve the public. I'm sure you'd see fewer shootings over time. Well, fewer shootings of people who aren't cops anyway.

Yeah, you're a lot safer because you can shoot back. No, wait, which way does time go again?

Dude, u make no fucking sense.


The guy came to school HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WITH A GUN TO SHOOT PEOPLE!? How he obtained the gun doesn't matter. Had there been stricter gun control laws, he would've still got one cause he had no record and was an upstanding college student. He always could've got one illegally as well.

there are laws stating u cant bring guns to school, but u think a guy with the sole purpose to kill gives a fuck about breaking a law?

U live in a fantasy world dude. no offense but Damn, I can't relate to u at all.

We live in a society where people have guns, people do bad things with said guns but taking guns away from the innocent WILL IN NO WAY stop the crazy bastards from gunning everyone down. U can only hope one of the good citizens has a gun on them and is able to shoot the crazy guy before he is able to mass slaughter tons of innocent people.

U know why the guy only killed 32 people?

Probably cause he ran out of bullets.

there was NO ONE stopping him.

U say lets put Cops in schoolyards etc etc?

Why would that work?

cause COPS HAVE FUCKING GUNS!

Thank U!

Criminals don't like being shot back at which makes them really thing twice about who they commit crimes against.

So you'd prefer defending your family against the gunman who has entered your house by throwing stones at him?

I'd choose a gun.

Exactly. And if there's a cop on hand with a gun there's no need for a member of the public to have one concealed on their person. Therefore, less guns in school. People who intend to kill people will always get their hands on a weapon, that's inevitable. Doesn't change the fact that fewer people would be slaughtered if angsty teens can't just stock up on automatic weapons from their grandfather's arsenal.

And again; You aren't any safer if you personally have a gun. If someone badly wants to shoot you, you're going to get shot.

25 is trying to alter the universe with his what ifs.


Guns exist

There will never be a time that they dont, u cant collect every single gun and melt them down and rid the world of guns therefore any solution involving NO GUNS will not work.

its not like this guy who commited the murders was a felon who was just released from prison.

Everyone can blame what they want to, truth is no one knew this guy was capable or would do somet hing like this. U cant really blame the gun laws or the gun store.

Thats as bad as blaming hip hop for Don Imus.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. How silly of me.

Tell me, how many armed intruders have you fought off?

Faculty members TRAINED and certified to carry concealed weapons are just as good as Cops with a handgun. : ok: Pretty much the exact same training and qualifying class.

I dont disagree with an AUTOMATIC handgun ban. U cant mass murder people as easily with a 6 shooter. So if u are against Automatic weapons, I can get behind that definitely. : ok:


Also, if someone was after me with a gun, Id feel 1000 times safer if I had one of my own. Sure it guarantees nothing, but What are my odds if I dont have one? Guarantee they are no where as good than if I have one.

On a side note: I hate guns and don't own one and personally am terrified of them. I still don't support gun bans though.

You can ban the public from owning them. You can ban the makers from producing guns for public consumption. Instantly you have fewer guns to account for, fewer guns to control. It seems to have worked quite handily for most other civilized countries. Yes, yes, yes, criminals will always have access to guns - children are a different story. 

U cant compare other countries to the melting pot that is the United States though.


Most other countries dont have the gang,drug and racial problems the United States has.

Bullshit. Pure, ignorant, bullshit. I don't think it's even possibly to argue that point reasonably as it's so utterly, completely false.   

I gun would've been a great help once.

I think there's a bigger step to attack someone pointing a gun at you than to attack someone who's unarmed.

And I if I'd had a gun back then I think I wouldn't be attacked at all.

Seems GN'R are about to face another backlash. The kid who did the killing was a GN'R fan who wrote a play called Mr Brownstone in which he fantasised about killing his proffessor...

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

it's a pretty tenuous link. i'd be surprised if there was a "backlash"

everybody loves a scapegoat, but this isnt it.

I dont think its gonna be like the Nightstalker / AC-DC connection.

great , why dont we blame the world not being at peace because of gnr while we are at it,


a stupid thread that intends on building more anger/frustration/sadness/blame in the hearts and minds of people,

and should be ? ?LOCKED***
STRAIGHT AWAY

I agree. This is a tragedy. No need for this thread at all. I don't want to read about it here.

I think it's fair to discuss it or atleast recognize that GN'R are being draged into this terrible shit, if you don't want to, fine, just get the fuck out of the thread.

This VT thing this is a huge tragedy, but it has become a typical american phenomenon over thal last decade. The fact that this guy was a gn'r fan does only proove thart he was americanized in his ways and was aware of american culture. He knew exactly what he did so noone in their right mind can drop this on GN'R. I mean, no matter how far you twist and tweak Mr. Brownstone the song aint about killing people and teachers and fucked up shit like that.

To me the song is about kicking a habit.

i dont see how in anyway mr brownstone can influence someone to go around blowing everyone away cause they were pissed off at the world.

Generally its always the parents of the criminals fault for bringing there child up wrongly.

The point is that with less guns around, it is more likely the attacker wouldn't have a gun either.

Then again if he got a legal one, he prolly would've gone throught the trouble to get an illegal gun.

You've got to be kidding me?, you actually think that other countries don't have those problems?

That's pretty ignorant if you ask me...

In some cases, perhaps. But you can't dispute the fact that with less guns around, you are also less likely to be attacked with one.

I don't like the whole "it doesn't matter if they're legal or illegal, people will always get their hands on a gun". Yeah, maybe. But what's the point of putting a high price tag on a Ferrari then? People can always steal one :hihi: You have to think about this on a bigger scale...

Guns N' Roses have become embroiled in the aftermath debate on the horrific shootings at the Virginia Tech in the US.

US website AOL News has printed two plays allegedly written by 23-year-old Korean student Cho Seung-Hui, who has been identified as the gunman at the Virginia Tech University massacre.

One of the plays, Mr Brownstone, appears to be named after a Guns N' Roses song.

The script of the play seems to borrow lyrical references from the Gun N' Roses song and tells of a crew of 17-year-olds who skip school to gamble at a casino and fantasize about killing their professor.

You can read the plays here.

The apparent association has lent a chilling resonance to the Guns N' Roses album, Appetite For Destruction, of which Mr Brownstone is taken from.

It is likely that sections of the US media may leap on this association with rock music, just as they did following the Columbine Shootings in 1999.

Then much was made of the fact that the students responsible, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, were Marilyn Manson fans.

This later turned out to be false - but Manson was still denounced and was forced to cancel his US tour under pressure from Christian protest groups.

Police say Cho killed at least 30 people and wounded 17 others before killing himself in Norris Hall, an engineering classroom building at Virginia Tech University, Monday.

It's also believed the student killed two other people earlier that day in a dormitory on campus.



Here's the play, if anyone wants to read it:
http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001


:: Vicente ::

A few days after one of the U.S.A.'s most tragic events, will the media try to put blame on GNR? I think they are going to start by the beginning of next week. The kid had really no good reason to kill those people. It seems like in the past that Bands are the first to take the blame rather than the real issues. Having the word "Guns" and having a play (taken out of context) created from a GNR song, I know that Bill O'Reilly is going to make it his mission.

LOL = if they blame Guns N Roses

U cant? compare the US to places like Canada and smaller countries. I hear all the UK people on here bashing our Gun Laws, but how is your murder rates?

The guy in the Va Tech case got a gun 6 months ago.

Its not like he got a gun and the very same day did this.

Guns save lives. Sure they are responsible for some horrible acts, but I guarantee the crime rate would be double maybe triple if people didn't have guns of their own to protect themselves.

Blaming Gun Control for this is like blaming Rap for Don Imus.

When something like this happens, everyone has to be able to point a finger somewhere, as if this kind of shit happens everyday here.

I think people don't realize how many gun deaths gangs account for in this country. People try to make it out like every American is a gun toting lunatic ready to open fire on anyone who crosses their path and that's bullshit.

When i was 4 years old, this guy broke in on my mom while my dad was at work and tried to rape her, just luckily my dad came home at the right time, pulled his gun on the guy and called the police.? they arrested him and turns out, the guy had raped countless other women.
Had my dad not had a gun, that dude may have killed us all as there was no way my dad could've took him hand to hand.

So some of u need to slap a bandage on those bleeding hearts and use your heads and really think about what u are saying before acting like outlawing law abiding citizens to access guns is the answer. It's not.

while u are at it, outlaw knives, airplanes, hairspray cans, matches and gasoline. Maybe then u can sleep in bed at night without fear.

Murders (per capita)', GOOGLE_KW_STRATEGY_OLD_KW_AND_TEXT), null, 'oneliner', 'oneliner'); phpexecute-->VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita Definition Source  Printable version Bar Graph Map Correlations Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom) #1 Colombia:<b>Colombia<b>0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa:<b>South Africa<b>0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica:<b>Jamaica<b>0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela:<b>Venezuela<b>0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia:<b>Russia<b>0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico:<b>Mexico<b>0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia:<b>Estonia<b>0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia:<b>Latvia<b>0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania:<b>Lithuania<b>0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus:<b>Belarus<b>0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine:<b>Ukraine<b>0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea:<b>Papua New Guinea<b>0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan:<b>Kyrgyzstan<b>0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand:<b>Thailand<b>0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova:<b>Moldova<b>0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe:<b>Zimbabwe<b>0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles:<b>Seychelles<b>0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia:<b>Zambia<b>0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica:<b>Costa Rica<b>0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland:<b>Poland<b>0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia:<b>Georgia<b>0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay:<b>Uruguay<b>0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria:<b>Bulgaria<b>0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States:<b>United States<b>0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia:

Very clever D. And while YOU are it, hand out Glocks to everyone once they turn seven years old, maybe they'll feel safer since they can properly protect themselves against any danger they might face. (PS. Also one extra grenade for every couple that gets married, for protecting the family.)

I think GNR's off the hook:

The news is saying that he liked to play violent video games, "Counterstrike" in particular.  I don't know it, but it looks like a shooter game, so the media will latch onto that before GNR.

i haven't read it all, can someone sum up what GNR has to do with this?

The Virginia Tech Killer Cho Seung-Hui supposedly wrote a play named "Mr Brownstone".

He mentions Guns n' Roses on the play and also uses the full lyrics to the song.

You can see details (and read the whole play) here:

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

How smart do u have to be to get into creative writing classes?

His plays suck.

That actually shocked me as much as anything. I graduated from VT and am not proud that this guy made it into his fourth year as an English major.? This play has no narrative direction or cohesive plot at all.? It's like something a little kid or a mental defective would write. I realize this point is fairly unimportant considering the massive level of instability that we're talking about with this guy.? But, it was written kind of like a bad dream where you have scenes and random events that don't add up to anything. Also sucks that he mentioned GNR, I hope that aspect of it doesn't get blown out of proportion in the press.

In the play, two people are talking about a teacher named Mr. Brownstone.  They imply that they were molested by him and there's a lot of rage there.  It's apparent that this guy had little understanding of what the song was saying.

I don't think the lyrics to Mr. Brownstone are controversial enough to create a fuss... then again, I guess you never know :-\


One line does say:

"JOHN: The song by Guns N' Roses called Mr. Brownstone. The song was about their heroin addiction."

One line does say:

"JOHN: The song by Guns N' Roses called Mr. Brownstone. The song was about their heroin addiction."

You're right, it does say that.  What was this guy thinking then?

CSS owns!!! i play it all the time, its just a internet swat vs terrorist game.

Based on what? Show us your work, where is the research which even suggests a correlation between an increase in domestic arms and a decrease in crime? If the one personal example you gave earlier is your sole source then you must already know that your conclusion is flawed as a single example is not a representative sample.


And I'm not going to make too much of this, but you did say that the US can't be compared to smaller countries and that no other country has the gang, drug and race problems that the US has - And then you post a table of "Murders per capita" (doesn't say which year) in which the US is 24th behind a host of smaller countries which also have much worse gang, drug and racial problems than the US (except maybe Poland and Mexico. Not sure.) Doesn't it strike you as odd, or at least mildly ironic, that you so easily disproved your own statement?
Also; Congratulations on the US having marginally less murders per capita than the ex-soviet block and South America. It's a shining example of the success of western civilization.



Having said all that; I've given it some thought and I've decided that gun control should be eliminated. All legislation relating to firearms and their use should be stricken from the   books. If anything, gun ownership should be mandatory for everyone from Jr High students on up. I think that there would be no quicker, surer way of turning public opinion against guns than to hand them out to everyone with no oversight and no qualification requirement. I'm relatively confident that within 12 months we'd either have a total ban on guns or a new system of government. 

I thought I did earlier?

Washington DC in 1976 placed a ban on all handguns. Crime rose 200 percent in washington DC between 1976 through 1991 as opposed to 12 percent for the rest of the US.

Criminals are scared of breaking into houses where they know they may get shot.

If u take that fear away from criminals, they have free reign to terrorize whomever they see fit.



Ban automatic weapons, I totally agree with that but some are just not thinking realistically.

Guns will never be totally banished from existance. So any conversation where someone says all handguns should be disposed of are not valid conversations cause thats impossible.

So u have to start with realistic measures.

One being banning all automatic weapons. A guy could never do all that damage with a six shooter. Campuses should have gun trained guards roaming the campus during all school hours, Like Mall rent a cops only with guns.

Virginia Tech are to blame for this also. the cops were super slow responding, I think I read where the gunman actually had two attacks more than an hour or two apart but the school didnt even warn the students that a shooting had taken place. Am I accurate on that or did I get bad info?

And as I already said, a single example is not a representative sample.

No-one is saying that. What is being said is that guns in general should not be available to the general public. That suggestion makes sense, so those who oppose it have to twist and mutate it into "you people think we can magically make guns disappear from the surface of the planet" because that's the kind of idea that even a five-year-old can argue against.

There is no way that it makes sense to look at an horrific shooting, a bona-fide mass murder, and say "the problem here is that we need more guns." It's textbook Orwellian double-think, "people keep shooting people, therefore we need to give more people guns" - "guns will never be eradicated therefore we need to give more guns to people." It just doesn't make any sort of sense, no matter how many caveats and footnotes you attach to it.

25 here is where I think your logic is flawed.


What u are proposing basically takes guns out of the hands of most people but how can u keep guns out of illegal people's hands? the people in gangs and the criminals who obtain this shit illegally?

What u are proposing basically puts every innocent law abiding citizen in danger cause the only thing protecting a lot of the population is the fact they own a gun and can protect themselves against bad people.

If the bad people can still get guns illegally but the law abiding good guys can no  longer, we are in serious trouble and would be in far worse shape than we are now.

U ever heard the saying "Guns Don't kill people, people kill people"?

That is absolutely right.

Until u can get illegal automatic firearms off the streets, U cannot take away people's means of protecting themselves.

Sure in a perfect world your theory works, but this isnt a perfect world and unarming innocent law abiding citizens IS NOT the answer.

Holy Shit! Sorry if this was already reported here but, you guys here the latest about this motherfucker! This is not a joke. I am sure this will be all over the place soon enough. You heard about the fucked up plays this guy wrote right? Fuck...

This dude was a GNR fan, and named one of his plays after his favorite GNR song, "Mr. Brownstone." You believe this shit! You can read the play here:

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

I think he had a teacher named Mr Brownstone, didn't he?

I guess it works in other countries because they're part of some other, more perfect world?

Guns don't kill people.People with guns kill people. <- THAT is absolutely right.

For the record, how many gun-totting citizens have been out fighting crime and cleaning up the streets lately? What's the statistical comparison between crimes prevented by the police and crimes prevented by regular citizens? Got any numbers on that? Because it seems a lot like the old "people need guns to protect themselves" argument is a crock of shit, especially when people seem to actually use their guns to look macho at the range or murder their families and then shoot themselves in the head. Statistical comparison between people defending their families with firearms and people killing their families with firearms? Anyone? Statistical comparison between people protecting their families with firearms and people accidentally leaving their firearms loaded within reach of children who then accidentally shoot themselves or their playmates? Can we get a ballpark figure?

Here's a fun one, Statistical comparison between gun shooting deaths perpetrated by criminals with illegal guns and ordinary citizens with legal guns. Wonder how that one plays out.

Illegal weapons will always be around. Saying that you intend to do nothing about the ridiculous number of weapons sitting around in homes across the country until the criminals pack it in is an invitation to more horror and bloodshed in the workplace, schoolyard, college campus, at home, at the god-damn mall, wherever. The fact, usually, is that these shootings are committed by relatively normal citizens (ie; not career criminals) with legal, or legally obtained weapons. Frankly, I have no particular interest in guns being banned or being freely available, and I don't much care who gets shot by them  as long as it isn't me. But if you're going to argue that arming the public is a good idea, please don't insult all of us by throwing out conjecture and NRA slogans as if they have some bearing on reality. If all you mean to say is that you like the idea of being allowed to own a gun, then say just that. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion - and no need to justify having one. All of the speculation and platitudes you're piling on top of it do your opinion no justice, as it can't possibly sustain the weight of so much unfounded, unconnected tripe. 

The killer sent a package to NBC News with video, photos, and writings. They believe he sent the package in between the double murder and the massacre 2 hours later. Here's a photo from MSNBC's website:

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/redfirebird2008/STG_Mega_KillerSpeaks_250p.jpg)

I personally don't own a gun, will never own a gun and I absolutely hate guns but people are too quick to blame this or blame that when a tragedy happens. millions of people own guns and sure murders are committed but the kind of thing that happened at VA Tech is something that nothing could've prevented. The guy was insane. Sure no guns for anybody would've but once again, that will never happen.


Personally, I think any kid under 21 who is caught with a gun should go to jail but ALSO their parents should go to jail.

If your child steals your gun, murders someone and then kills himself, the parent should be charged with 2 murders.

How bout that?

What a total scumbag loser.

Don't acknowledge the fact that he existed.
He wanted to be remembered, to go down in history. Let's remember the tragedy, not him.
Let's just be happy this nobody is dead. No-name human garbage, that's what he should be remembered as.
Don't post up his pics, either. Die nameless and faceless, bitch.

Anyone else find it disgusting how the media use this for ratings and ad dollars?

Here's a thought;

How many of you have been in a fight or seen a fight?

Okay, let's take a few situations;

1 vs. 1
1 vs. 2
1 vs. 5
1 vs. 10

It get more and more likely, the more people are involved, right?

Don't you think those ten would walk away if the guy they're up against would pull out a gun?

Then again, where I live, you get commited even if you shoot a junkie who's on something and is dangering your family. Now how just is that?

You even get commited if you participate in a fight defending yourself.

Now I wouldn't go and blame a guy for beating up a rapist, but gues what, he got to pay the rapist 'cos he stepped in.

It's just that, the more power you have, the more chance you have that you get to walk out of the situation without having to use force.

I think you've gone off on a tangent. Punishment is irrelevant as penalties don't seem to prevent anything. I think that in the second scenario you proposed it's possible that the parent could be on the hook for two counts of manslaughter anyway, depending on the circumstances. Unlikely, but possible.

The VA Tech thing, well, I think you already suggested that if the guy had only a handgun he'd have been less able or less likely to kill so many people. I'll say that I think that if he'd had no legal way to obtain a firearm he would have drawn much more attention to himself in his attempt to procure one, especially given the court ruling on his mental health and threat level, which could have lead to this shooting being prevented. We're told that this guy was not exactly a subtle, low-key individual which does suggest that this could be one of the few clear-cut cases where prevention should have been a real possibility. We can only speculate but I would think that if there had been, at the very least, more obstacles in his path such as more strict gun ownership laws or better background checks then prevention would have been more likely. Of course, it's all irrelevant now. 

That's just not true. It may hold water in martial arts movies and bad DTV action flicks, less so in real life. Besides which, a gun is not power. If you (specifically you) walked around armed all day, getting into shit left right and center, pulling that gun out would likely go from "last resort" to "first choice" pretty quickly. And then it's lost all of it's "power," because eventually someone is going to call your bluff and you're going to have to back down or pull the trigger. And either way,  you're screwed.

Now this, I don't understand. Consider; Cho Seung-Hui wanted to commit suicide, but instead of the tried and tested shotgun in the mouth, he decides to take a few people from this world along with himself, have a bit of fun on the way out, whatever he saw it as. In my eyes, it would appear to be win win for ol' Cho there.

Do you believe in capital punishment? If so, why? Because it's the ultimate punishment? For who? Surely not for those who wish to die? Of course, if it ain't a form of punishment, why so then? Be rid of 'em?

Personally, I'd rather he lived to reflect on what he had done. It wouldn't have to be that long, maybe a few years. But I'd let him die on his own time, but not through his own choosing. Though, of course, not as a free citizen. You never know, he may come good!, that is, see the error of his ways. Of course, he wouldn't be forgiven. And therein would lie his punishment. For my money, his time in jail wouldn't be geared towards rehabilitation, oh no, but realization.

Jim, I am happy he is dead because as I said earlier we won't have to sit thru a media circus before, during, and after his trial. Tax payer money will be saved. I won't have to hear about his depression and why he blames the world for his sadness. He had no regards to the lives he took and therefore he should not a life himself. I don't feel pity for him at all. He is a waste of a human being.  In my opinion, he doesn't deserve the right to sit in jail and be taken care of courtesy of tax paying citizens and reflect upon himself to may or may not realize what a horrible crime he committed and what a worthless person he is.

I just can't imagine what there families are going through right now. just awful.

33 dead  :'(

RIP

Now there's the danger. Then again, if somebody forces entry to your home, anyway you look at it, you're screwed.

And for my own experience; an upper hand giving tool helps; since for an example, when I popped my trunk at took my old (t)rusty crowbar suddenly the thought of fighting weren't as appealing to the two guys I was facing. (story short, a friend of mine called me about some guys trashing a party).

15 minutes of resrach would answer all of your questions - and they wouldn't give you the answers you want to believe.  I've posted data comparing statistics that is valid, regardless of political opposition.  But just look at raw numbers; people like yourself can't argue those.

Yes and this is from the Washington Post, they run through many theories as to the name he uses but they are really reaching on this one.

"Ismail Ax" The VT Gunman's Final Message?

"Ismail Ax." Eight letters scrawled in red ink across the inside arm of Virginia Tech shooter Cho Seung-Hui; possibly the last thing he wrote before taking his own life.

The idea which seemed most promising to me was that "Ismail Ax" was possibly his screen name or maybe an anagram. I began playing around with the eight letters and reading through Cho's creative writing for some other clues. One of his plays, "Mr. Brownstone" references a Guns and Roses song by the same name. The lead singer of GNR was Axl Rose, so perhaps his online identity might be "Axl is I am"? (You never know!)

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/offbeat/2007/04/ismail_ax_the_vt_gunmans_final.html

corean democracy huh

The media is going to have blood on their hands with their 24/7 coverage of this kids pictures and video.  A copy cat is sure to be "inspired" by all of this.

Some asshole just got arrested for sending threatening text messages to this girl he dated, saying he was going to kill her, a friend and people at her school.

"its going to be VT all over again"

or something like that he said.

The VT killer referenced the columbine killers in his rants....   Something to think about.

One thing us Americans are good at is mourning and mourning and mourning.  as tragic as this news is, life must go on or the bastards that cause us this pain win (same with 9-11).  This story will probably carry over into next week. 

Link me.

What is up with these sick fuckers. All day on the radio, and now on the tube, I have too look at this disgusting piece of shit babble his madness. I hate the cable channels for giving this maniac a posthumous soap box. Curse them.

Jim, no, I don't believe in capital punishment, it's barbaric, and surely you can understand that my comment about being happy he is dead was merely me venting frustrations and anger towards this coward. could have worded it better, yes, and i considered not writing that, but i felt it was not disrespectful to the victims to say i am happy he is dead, after all it is pretty clear i sympathize with them.

I believe stuff like this shouldn't be televised or given any media attention whatsoever.

I do believe also it inspires other sick fucks to give up on their worthless lives and try to leave a mark and become immortal.

To hear news pundits debating this shit made me sick. As if everyone should've known he was a killer just cause he was quite and didnt say Hi to people.


I remember when Fox News used as their tag line "the number 1 coverage of Hurricane Katrina" Promoting themselves with an enormous tragedy.

Drives me crazy how they try to present it like they are doing people a favor and reporting the news but YET u know all they see are dollar signs and ratings.

http://www.johnlott.org/

Oh jesus, you're kidding me right?
Actually, you couldn't have picked a better example if you wanted to argue that the lack of accurate data on the subject makes it difficult if not impossible to reach any sort of valid conclusion on the possibility of a causal relationship between gun ownership and violent crime. You could have picked from a handful of guys on the pro-gun side and a handful of equally "good" sources on the opposing side and every single one of them has had their work both credited and discredited by peer review and competing studies. The fact is that there just isn't the raw statistical data to back either side's argument, and without the raw data all the fancy mathematical models in the world don't prove a damn thing. And it certainly doesn't help that Lott himself has been accused of falsifying his own data and of shilling for his works under pseudonyms, casting doubt on the validity of all of his past, present and future work. 

That link does contain raw numbers already setup to be computed.? You can look at FBI crime stats to see number of people who use illegal weapons versus legal ones.? the anti-gun crowd never provides raw numbers, they simply take a statistic and spin it.? Take for example the brady campaign, they consider 21 year old gang members "kids" in their numbers.? If you shared a taxi with someone and they murder you, the Brady campaign calls that an aquantince murder.? I say again, only one legally owned automatic weapon was ever used in a murder and the murderer was a cop.? More babies drown in 5 gallon buckets than are killed by an accidental or even intentional discharge.? Do some research and don't discredit someone just because they're advocating a side.? Maybe just maybe they're ahead of you and have already looked at the data.

Ageless Stranger, i'm with you, i really don't see how people can be anti-gun.

i loved the double barrel shotgun in Doom 2. it was awesome !

It was a big improvement over the pump action in Doom 1 I thought.  I was always a fan of the BFG 9000 though.  IDKFA and IDDQD was a life saver

Exactly what I would've done if that fucker was coming at me!! Nobody takes my life with out a fight!!

Don't be such pussies, a tank is the only way to go!

Lott doesn't need to be discredited for advocating anything, he has already discredited his own work (on the initial "More Guns, Less Crime" paper) when he asked to have his name removed from it - even though he was the primary author. He discredited his own data by changing his coding to manipulate the outcomes, especially in the Replies between himself and the Ayres & Donohue  papers. And he discredited his integrity when he admitted to using a pseudonym to argue with his critics online and to shill for his papers, telling people to download them as often as possible so that they get more attention, and writing fake reviews of his books on frigging Amazon.com.

Lott is not a credible source. If you weren't aware of that, I suggest doing your own research instead of assuming the ignorance of others.

(Waiting for Ann Coulter clip n paste job.)

Don't worry I have no more interest in getting involved in disucssion with you.  After the low blow you/Bud Fox took yesterday accusing me of numerous lies and crimes against you, I've realized you have no intention of following any code of ethics or fair debate.  When you can't outwit or debate someone, you result to the lowest forms of attack possible.  Shame on you for dishonoring those 32 vicitims by using that tragedy in your libel.

yet you just did....

are you guys still talking about v tech ?

south africa shows just got cancelled guys !!!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND !!!!111!???????!!!!

Americans will never learn. The truth will never come out about why this happened. The reason the truth will never come out is because ever since Ronald Reagan was sworn in, mental health in this country has taken a back seat as crazy people were literally let out onto the streets in droves. The money that should be used to treat those people is now lining the pockets of fat mafia fucks and crooked politicians.

Your (U.S.) news media now has over 40 video clips sent to NBC by the shooter. They won't show them and they never will, using the excuse that it's taseless and insulting to the famlies of the victims. BOLLOCKS!

You will never know the reasons and so the problems that cause this kind of thing will never be addressed. You are powerless to do nothing more than wait for the next soldiers in Jodie Foster's Army, and hope that YOUR children aren't their next victims.

(JFA / Jodie Foster's Army, is a punk band from the 80's that was named after an idea... an idea of what would happen when crazy people are ignored in a country with little or no gun control. The actresses name was used because the schizophrenic who shot at Ronald Reagan in 1981 was "doing it for Jodie Foster")

I have no idea of what you are talking about.

It's odd that everything you accuse others of doing, actually mirrors your actions. Veiled threats, false identities, personal attacks, dishonesty etc...nobody here buys your Karl Rove tactics. Most of the right wing morons have either left or been banned by now, and the "say it, 'til it becomes the truth" doesn't work for the remaining posters here. Don't get me wrong, you are free to say it, but the only person you are fooling is yourself.

And on the contrary you have done nothing in this thread but use the death of these kids to push your gun agenda with discredited data. Now go cry about being picked on somewhere else, nobody gives a shit.

Actually, NBC and other news outlets showed many of those video clips and only stopped when victims families dropped out of interviews with NBC.? Most people didn't like the fact that the killer was getting what he wanted all along by painting his whole martyr self-portrait on national television.

Don't think for a second that the problem of mental illness is somehow limited to the US.  There are millions of mentally ill people all over the world, most of them don't walk in a building and kill 31 other people.

That's what happens every time. This is a free country. We even have YOUTUBE now. Those media outlets should have the right to post every clip without fear from a bunch of psychophant victims' relatives. There was a time when Americans were curious to learn what made people do things like this and try to learn from it and prevent it. Now everyone plays into the bollocks.

Of course mental illness isn't limited to the U.S. But the U.S. just has more gun stores than gas stations.  :rofl: And the U.S. ignores more mentally ill people than any advanced country because tax dollars are funneling into the pockets of fat mafia fucks and crooked politicians. The money is actually GONE now. They can't even reverse if they wanted to. That's why more people are going to die. And every time anti-deppresants cause shit like this you never hear mcuh about it because it's a multi-billion dollar drug industry. The fucking prescription pills are being given out like candy. You think that South Park episode was a joke? Think again.  :hihi:

The POLICE were even called on this kid... school administartors. NOT A WORD ABOUT THAT NOW! People should be fired or go to jail for this. But it won't happen. Just like no one who let 9/11 happen were punished and no one who let those black people in New Orleans drown were punished.

The irony is what cracks ME up. Reagan was the one who started letting these mentally ill people onto the streets, and then he was shot by a schizophrenic  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

There was this old TV show from the mid-70's... before they let the crazy people go, called "Welcome Back Cotter." Some of the 30+ crowd here probably remember it. But there were always these scenes where they would pick up some crazy guy and throw him into the holding cell to be "processed into Belvue," which was a famous New York City mental hospital.

Well guess what? The reasons for which they were arresting those guys, are things that happen on city steets every day now.... UNCHECKED!

Perspective my friend, perspective. Jodie Foster's Army will continue their battle, and YOUR children might be next.

(JFA / Jodie Foster's Army, is a punk band from the 80's that was named after an idea... an idea of what would happen when crazy people are ignored in a country with little or no gun control. The actresses name was used because the schizophrenic who shot at Ronald Reagan in 1981 was "doing it for Jodie Foster")

You mean HMOs and their lobbyists?

Glad to know someone took joy in that.  ::)

Oh...and much love to the hypocrites who hate the US for being involved worldwide, yet jump on a crisis like this as an opportunity to tell us what's wrong with our country and how it should be run.   : ok:

Back on topic: this makes me incredibly sad. I work with college-aged kids every day, and they have their whole lives in front of them. Some will go on to do great things and help society. To lose any one of them is a sadness, not only to the families, but also  to society. I am so sorry.

I just realized that the S. African shows were cancelled 2 days after it was discovered that the V-Tech shooter used the Mr. Brownstone lyrics in one of his plays. Might be unrealted, but it's been a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy long time now with no word from gunsnroses.com since cancelling the S.A. shows. (3 days and still no official word aout S.A. dates)

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=195909

An Emmanuel College professor has been fired after re-enacting the Virginia Tech massacre in his classroom in order to air a pro-gun viewpoint that offended students at the Catholic liberal arts school, the professor charged yesterday.
     Nicholas Winset said he was terminated and permanently barred from campus following a Wednesday lecture in which he dramatized the massacre to show that deranged gunman Cho Seung-Hui could have been stopped if another student had been carrying a gun.
     ?If there were more guns in society, the response time to the (rampage) might have been much faster,? said Winset, an adjunct professor of financial accounting. ?Someone might have been able to do something to stop it.?


    In an interview yesterday, Winset also decried media coverage of the massacre, saying, ?Just because everyone is portraying this as the national tragedy of the year doesn?t mean it is. More people died of AIDS today? than in the massacre, he said.
     Administrators at the college apparently did not appreciate Winset?s classroom message. They quickly fired him via a one-page letter delivered by courier yesterday.
     ?You are hereby directed not to enter the College campus or any College owned property at any time for any reason,? the letter states. ?Also enclosed . . .is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts form, How to File for Unemployment Insurance Benefits.?
     A spokeswoman for Emmanuel College, Molly Honan, would not give the college?s rationale for firing Winset. She said the school?s policy is not to comment on personnel issues.
     Winset, 37, of Newton called the college?s decision to fire him ?pathetic,? and said it will have a ?chilling effect? on professors? willingness to engage in open discussions about controversial issues.
     ?A classroom is supposed to be a place for academic exploration,? he said. ?It?s just gotten so politically correct. It?s sad that we have come to this point.?
     Winset said he gave students a disclaimer before he started his Virginia Tech re-enactment, which involved him pointing a Magic Marker at students and saying, ?Pow.? He then had another student shoot him with an imaginary gun to make the point that Cho could have been stopped by another student with a firearm.
     Winset said the skit was meant to be a somewhat tenuous segue into an assignment asking students to examine whether the massacre has had an impact on the financial markets, which have remained healthy in tragedy?s aftermath. He said he wanted students to see that intense media focus on a story does not always mean it has the same relevance to the markets or to society in general.?

I read about this earlier.  Just goes to show how open minded and free speech oriented people in academia really are.  You have Ward Churchills who never even get reprimanded and this guy makes a very valid, down to earth point and they fire his ass.  I guess the cardinal rule is don't break a liberal's fragile ego and comfort zone.  Maybe they can fire the next gunman who comes in and waste people, I'm sure he'll care.

Welcome back Flagg  : ok:

I actually agree with you here, this was absolutely ridiculous.  But lets not pretend this is happening all over the country.  its an isolated incident.

well said my friend. 

It was too soon after the tragedy. If he had done this exercise 6-12 months down the road I doubt the reaction would have been as drastic.

yeah it was just a little to soon . I don't think that dude should have been fired.when you start telling teacher how to teach their class's then why the hell have them.

From The Q Daily...

-----------------------------------------------------

http://news.q4music.com/2007/04/q_blog_virginia_tech_massacre.html

Virginia Tech massacre

(http://images.q4music.com/content/q/theqdaily/160x120/axl_rose_160x120.jpg)

Yesterday we predicted that it was only a matter of time before some band or artist was blamed for warping the mind of Cho Seung-Hui, the Virginia Tech gunman. After the Columbine shootings in 1999, much was made of the fact that the students responsible, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, were Marilyn Manson fans. This later turned out to be false - but Manson was pilloried all the same, forced to cancel his US tour under pressure from Christian protest groups. His career never recovered.

Well, lo and behold, today the media is buzzing with speculation that Cho Seung-Hui may have been incited to murder by Guns N' Roses. Details are sketchy but it seems the killer once wrote a play which takes its name from the GN'R song Mr. Brownstone. It tells of a gang of 17-year-olds who skip school to gamble at a casino and fantasize about murdering their teacher. The play apparently goes through the lyrics of the entire GN'R song, relating Mr. Brownstone to the teacher the main characters want to kill.

Once again, a rock band comes under fire for the actions of an unhinged individual. Why this need to find a scapegoat? If anyone is responsible, beyond the killer himself, it is surely those responsible for upholding America's gun laws, which ensure that getting hold of murderous weapons remains laughably easy, even as the murder rate spirals out of control.

But the NRA is too vast and nebulous a target. People need easy targets, and that's why we can expect to see Axl Rose denounced by ill-informed moral guardians in the coming weeks.

Entirely gratuitously, here's a live version of Mr Brownstone, from back when Guns N'Roses really were the 'most dangerous band in the world'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9O82ydYL_c

Your appeal to emotional argument, with your accusatory bullshit lends nothing to anything.

Hey genius, this guy got fired based on emotional outrage.  It's a fact that academia is 90% or more dominated by leftist ideals and lectures.  Ward Churchill blames 9/11 on the victims and is either applauded or defended for his right to do so.  This professor uses reality in showing people that their violen free utopias are something only given creedence in the classroom.  Because this professor dare question the university's policy on creating victim zones, he was fired.  If some professor got up there and called US Troops terrorists, talked about fucking his partner in the ass, called Bush a fascist and liar they'd be handed tenure.  Their is liberal indoctrination in college and anyone who attempts to stray from it is punished.

so what? the world is 90% or more dominated by rightist ideals and capitilistic crap. gimme a break.

Sarkozy all the way baby!  : ok:

But, really, free exchange in college classrooms has little to do with a professor using their position as a bully pulpit to push their own ideals.  That applies here and to Mr. Churchill.  I'm all for free exchange of ideas, and I HATE the idea that professors should censor their own beliefs so as to not "offend" anyone, but this was the professor using his classroom as a forum to make his own political point, which is wrong.

That said, I agree that this firing is a bad move.  Hell, there's only a couple of weeks left in the semester.  Let him finish his class, so the lives of his students are less disrupted.

Also, shame on the PC pussies who ratted out their teacher because he's "offensive."  How many college professors are just plain boring?  Most students would probably like an offensive one!     

"Fact".

Yes, FACT!  Look up any study on party affiliation among professors.  Compare the percentage of students in extremist groups compared to the nation as a whole.  There was an entire thread dedicated to this a few months ago.  Just because you agree with what they preach doesn't mean it isn't wrong or being forced on students.

Show me the studies clown.

Using yourself as a source does not count.