Here Today... Gone To Hell!

This is something that I've been thinking about now for the past few days.  I know I could have posted this in the "LIVE chemistry" topic but I really wanted to talk about this in broader terms.  And more or less addressing why we've been waiting so long for this new album....



The original line-up of GNR had incredible chemistry.  And matching that chemistry is an exteremly difficult task.  This was a group of five guys who all started out struggling but all lucked together by having the same vision.  Think about how hard it is when bands change one member, let alone four (Matt, Izzy, Duff, and Slash).  Metallica took almost two years to find a replacement for Newsted.  Red Hot Chili Peppers thought they had a great replacement with Dave Navarro but the album was mediocre and they had to re-recruit Frusciante.  Bands take years finding good replacements to match the band's chemistry.  Pearl Jam went through numerous drummers, waiting for Soundgarden to break-up so they could get Matt Cameron.  REM still doesn't have a permanent drummer after almost 10 years. 

Now imagine being in Axl's shoes and having to start over from scratch.

First of all, GNR isn't some indie rock outfit that doesn't have too many expectations.  When Matt Sharp left Weezer did anyone worry too much about who would be replacing him?  No...but GNR is a rock n roll icon.  Slash is a rock legend.  You can't just go and get anyone off the street to fill his shoes.  And the hardest part, just because you find someone as talented as Slash doesn't mean that guitarist is the right fit either.  The guitarist has to fit in with Axl's voice and vision.  Finding the right match may take years.  I don't think anyone will argue that Buckethead isn't a great guitarist.  But was his style a right fit for GNR?  Who knows?  But what I can say is that when I saw GNR in LA in Dec. Finck was outstanding.  Watching him and Axl on stage together seemed liked the perfect match.  And I know for a fact that isn't something that happened overnight.

But Robin is only one piece of the puzzle!  Now Axl has to find a bassist that not only fits with his voice, he has to find a bassist that fits with Robin's style.  Then he has to find a rhythm guitarist that fits with Robin, Axl and the bassist and then he as to repeat this again with a drummer.  You can imagine why this process is taking so long.

Remember, he's not recruiting members for the Axl Rose Band.  He's hiring people to be in GNR.  There is a standard that he needs to live up to.  If he replaced the members with just about anybody, he would be doing a disservice to the the band's legacy as well as most importantly...the fans.   

If you believe that Axl is taking too long of a time to rebuild the band...then think about this...  Name one other band in the history of rock n roll that has replaced all but one original member and has remained as important, popular, and as relevant as ever.  The new band headlined major festivals last year and thousands of fans came out in droves to see them.  People didn't go out to see Axl and Slash, they went out to see GNR.  And I don't know one person that came away from a show (fan or journalist) who didn't love the new line-up.  I can't tell you how many times I read a review where the author started the article by saying..."I was skeptical about the new band, there's no way they could be as good as the original gunners..." and every single one of them ended the article extremely impressed!  I remember some of the reviews of the Buckethead years and they were mild at best.  But this time around, everyone is praising the new band.

Think of all the thousands of bands that fail every year because they don't have chemistry.  I can tell you right now, that Axl knows this more than anyone.  When new bands start up they go through many members finding the right fit.  And even when they settle on a line-up, there's no guarantee they will succeed.  But if this new band fails, there's not a lot of hurt feelings besides the band members.  If the new GNR fails, imagine how many disappointed fans there will be.  Axl has a big task to undertake.  And he's trying to do it right...because in GNR, there's no room to fail.

I more than anyone want the new album to come out.  And I can't tell you how frustrated I am.  But at the same time, instead of throwing rocks, I'd rather try to understand why this process is taking so long than just getting angry. 

That was one of the best posts I have read around here in a long time. :peace:

I don't think Buckethead fitted in with the whole 'chemistry' thing, although he did make the band sound good live.

From the picture's we have seen, few (if any) show Axl hanging out with the rest of the band. I don't think it is about chemistry, I think it's about Axl wanting to front a band that contains musicians that can play their instruments to the max. He wants the lastest incarnation of Gn'R to sound the best it possibly can when performing live (thus boost Axl's ego's more so)  :peace:

This is without a doubt one of the best posts I've read, period. You hit the nail right on the head with this one. I've thought about this a lot myself, Axl's task of putting this new band together that will match or outmatch the old, legendary one and making it all fit and get the right feel and chemistry is a task that is unmatched in music history, yet he has pulled it off with perfection. Your post pretty much said it all. Kudos.

You act like this is an ongoing process, it's not. Axl had his band in 2001, the very same band that did most of the recording for this record. So what gives? Why an additional 6 years? It's got little to do with members, but it's got everything to do with him not being satisfied with the product. If it is like you say a member problem he would have replaced parts of the band by now, that hasn't happened. The only changes that has been made have been by the member itself.

Until Axl can get rid of his demons and insecurities we won't see CD. It took fucking long when he had the original band too, it's not about that.

You know, I don't usually reply to these kind of posts, but for you to say that Axl has to deal with his demons and insecurities before we see CD is utter ignorance. What do you know about what the reasons are for this project taking so long to complete? Axl has had an enormous task at hand with putting this new band together and making the best damn Guns record possible, and facing all kinds of obstacles and lawsuits along the way. Like you (completely without reason) told me, stop talking like you know when you really have no clue.

I agree with everything you said makes sense. It takes alot of time to find that chemistry. If you look at the original GNR live at the Ritz-1988 It was amazing! AXL jumping in the crowd surfing, singing his guts out, Slash on the floor just laying the guitar perfect, Duff and everyone else in rythym. Now that is hard to replace but although I think the Buckethead era sounded very fast and heavy live! I saw The Guns last year at the Palace and let me tell you there is a mutual love and respect for all of them on stage and they were awsome! I think everyone has finally got on the same page in a group vision.

How is it any more ignorance than the thousand of speculation posts written here every day, including yours. I don't agree with your hypothesis, deal with it. Fronting the GN'R name on his own is a demon, not being able to make music is a demon, not daring to release something is insecurity. There's nobody with a gun to his head.

Interesing Post.

In My Opinion... this Line Up is The Best OF aLL tIME...

HBK *

First off, Axl had every right to do what he did, the other band members quit on him and he wanted to continue with the band, how is that a demon? "Not being able to make music"? Are you serious? Axl is a creative genius, if you don't think he is able to make music, what the hell are you doing here? "Not daring to release something"? Again, what the hell do you know about why this record is taking to long to put out? Seems to me you are doing the same speculation you accuse others of doing. You know, I used to think you made intelligent posts, thanks for changing my mind and proving me wrong. I suggest you check yourself before you make another post accusing other posters of groundless speculation.

There were plenty of people who didn't 'love' the new line up. Did you go to Download or read Kerrang's review. A lot of people don't even know who the members are.

The fact is the band probably didn't see Axl for long periods of time, worked on solo stuff and as a result any chemistry that was there between the members fizzled out. Buckethead got fucked off and well, fucked off.

Whether Axl was in the right frame of mind to do anything is more the question - If your 'leader' isn't positive or present no matter who the members are its not going to work out. Which brings us back to the fact that the delays rest with Axl not the band. I agree with polluxlm.

But hopefully thats all been resolved and this year we will see the fruits of their labor.

Cool.  : ok:


Seems like many won't even bother trying to understand.....


It's kinda sad that some people will use their imagination to come up with all kinds of scenarios of what can go wrong with GN'R, but at the same time they just won't use that same energy to try to understand what's going on with this band.


Look at this:




Amusing to read this guy explaining how the band works when the band members are saying everybody contributes.

So if you add two new guitar players and a new drummer to the mix, why wouldn't they be allowed to contribute?

Did you ever think that maybe they want the album to represent the current band, and not a band that existed six years ago?


Nothing has changed... Is that your new motto? This is the second time you repeat it and it's still wrong.



Do you honestly think those emo kids even gave the band an honest chance?





/jarmo

The obvious thing to do would be to start a new band. He was in his 'right' if there really is such a thing, but that doesn't make it smart. Alot of weight to carry.


He said it himself, that the lawsuits and shit in his life depressed him so much he didn't know how to put it on paper. The fact that he didn't even sing between 94 and 98 is evidence enough (source Moby).


I'm accusing someone now? Must have missed that part. We're all engaging in pretty much baseless speculation, yes, including me. If you want hard facts I suggest we both go do something else.

@polluxim

your 2000+ posts unfortunately became irrelevant at some point, I really don't remember when, I think it was soon after first 10 ...


@acompleteunknown

nice post ...


edit: added unfortunately

you mean he didn't sing for 4 years? can you find his exact words?

I don't know any more about how the band works than you do, and I never said new members didn't contribute. What we can assume is that it's not any particular member not doing their parts, if not they'd most likely be out the door pretty fast. How many hours of recording, how many versions, how many edits and mixes? Probably thousands. The music is there, in loads. If after all this time it's still not good enough it's either Axls problem or some of the members need to go. Apparently it's not the latter.

And please explain to me how things have changed? They're still in the studio, they're still not releasing anything, nor music or specific info. The recording process moving forward isn't new, just an addition to the old.

The stuff he played me reminded me of U2?s Achtung Baby. It was powerful but groovy. They were doing everything on [audio software program] Pro Tools,? Moby remembers. ?Axl?s soft-spoken and a decent guy. The only time he got testy was when I said, ?These need vocals.?? Moby passed on the project.

You also have a bunch of interviews from the ex-members talking about the ongoing process in 94-96 and that Axl didn't really do anything besides observing and throwing around ideas.


Like this one here you mean? ::)

Kerrang will diss Axl Rose no matter what he does.  They're still pissed off over the whole "Get In The Ring" outing...even if they say they're not.  That's like being surprised that Hilary Clinton gave out sanwiches to homeless people and Karl Rove criticized her for it.

Also "not knowing the members" doesn't mean they don't like them.  Some people went to the shows looking for a familiarity with music they grew up with.  Having new members was I'm sure slightly disappointing...BUT very few of them have said they didn't like the music being played.

Those who bash the new band are basically the Goth kids from South Park.  They would hate the band no matter what.  The original members could all get back together and they would find a reason to hate them.  And I wouldn't be surprised if half of them didn't  even see the new band play live and merely wanted to "be cool" and jump on the negative bandwagon. 

I went to see the band in December.  I was skeptical.  I even had the stomach flu.  I came out of the show completely floored.  All I could think to myself was "they don't make rock bands like this anymore."

nowhere those say that he didn't sing between 94 and 98. isn't it just your speculation?

The songs didn't have any vocals, what else do you need? Moby even described him as getting 'testy' for just bringing up the subject. If that isn't indication of some sort of temporary inability I don't know what it is. What he does in the shower doesn't concern me.

When watching the '01-'02 line-up on dvd the chemistry seems to be pretty good except for Bucket, Robins look was.. different but he was rockin' and playing the songs with his own style, adding solos and stuff. When listening the '02 bootlegs you hear great chemistry and out standing instrumental playing while Axl being the weak link on some of the old songs, I still prefer the '02 version of Maddy and The Blues.

When I saw the '06 line-up live with Bumble the chemistry was great, probably the best I've ever seen. I was thinking about this on monday after talking about the new line-up to a friend of mine and one of the reasons I think why this new band works ('01-'02 included) is that all the band members know what the old songs mean to Axl, when they were made Axl gave all he got, they know and honor this. Also when the new band was formed Axl probably didn't dictate them on how to play the songs, kinda like, "Play them the way you wan't as long as they sound right and have feeling" and this is more audible on the '02 bootlegs, Axl gave them freedom to play the songs they felt was right, they weren't just some hired musicians to duplicate the former band members playing and sound, they created their own sound.

These are some of the main reasons I feel made the new band has been a success

This is silly.
You think it takes 12 years to reconstuct a band?
Maybe the chemistry is off because when the band is recording or rehearsing, Axl is never around?
It's well noted he didn't show up for rehearsals or recording for months.
You think he hires and fires producers and group members because of "team chemistry"?
It had more to do with uncertaintly and insecurity more than anything...
Tommy has been with the band for over 8 years. You think he's still working on his chemistry with Axl?
Give me a break.......
I'm an aXl and GnR supporter, but it's silly when people who don't know anything make up these excuses as to why things take so long. We're talking about a decade. You've got to get serious.

A band that is as iconic as GNR?  Yes.  No one has ever attempted that task.  So we really don't know how long it will take.  And 12 years ago, Slash and Duff were still in the band.


No, he fits.  That's why he's still in the band.  That's why he was able to leave go to the Replacements reunion and still come back and record. 

Linkin Park has all their same members and it's taken them 4 years to put out a new album.

Tool's taken 5 years between their last two albums.  Nine Inch Nails took 5 years between Downward Spiral and The Fragile.

Changing band members complicates things.  Especially when you're trying to make something of quality.

well if Trent needed 5 years to find chemistry between himself and ... uhm ... himself  :hihi: all is clear   :P

There was a tentative release date issued by Axl himself, Axl saying they were gonna finish the album, a successful tour, an update saying the recording is done, it's being mixed.


Did you see any of those in 2001?


Just by sticking to the facts, you can see that it's not the same as in 2001.




/jarmo

The daily voical exercises and such singers do are already singing.

How can you decide that axl didn't sing at all from 94 to 98  just because moby didn't hear him sing on the songs?


an assumptive remark. now you call it  indication but it was the source of a fact .  ::)

maybe that where the root of your negativity is.

We're not debating wether or not he sung at all, but rather if there are indications that there are psychological reasons for him not being able to finish. I'll say that quote is a pretty strong indication of that.

Axl not singing kinda makes sense.

He probably fucked up his vocal chords pretty bad during the massive UYI tours and wanted them to recover. If he ever got upset with people asking about vocals, he probably had trouble singing at that point. His voice is the most important thing he's got.. if he can't sing his career is over.

If I scream for an hour or so I lose my voice completely for 3 days  ;D

That depends on your definition. The words and claims are different, and I'll agree the state of the project is different as to being more complete, but they're still just words. There are no hard evidence suggesting CD is imminent. When I see a tracklist, cover art, single or Universal statement I'll jump on the train, but at this point we're still pretty much in the same mode of waiting as before.

Good post, but the members have been there. Several of them for near a decade. The songs we hear are all at least 4-5 years old now too, so it's not like it's been an ongoing process. The new band's growth is not a y=x graph. It's had many dips and haults, and those are due to member problems (at least not all of them).

The problem in the process stems from Axl's insecurity imo. It took him a long time to be able to do anything, and then when he finally had a product he was proud of (Oh My God) and it got a cold response, his confidence was shattered. He even changed his opinon of the song from 'it's great' to 'it's just a demo'. He refused to respect his own work just because others didn't like it. That's too bad, because it probably derailed the first steady CD train and added years onto the release of the album.

That was well said, perfect post my friend : ok:   

say so from the start.
and if you think he couldn't put the vocals for some psychological reasons then, you must know how things have changed.

All of the mitigating factors need to be taken into account, but this whole thing with Chinese Democracy is still a disgrace!  I agree with wanting to be your best and maintaining the credibility of GNR (although that seemed to be going down for years before the orginal band broke up).  BUT sitting around fretting about the shit is a complete pussy move.  A bad ass rock band (like GNR was and hopefully will be again) would cut the tracks and go out and play it the best that they can play it. End of story. If it was me I'd think I'd rather do that than wait til I'm 45+ years old to release another album. But that's just me. (By the way, I still support Axl and I'm anxiously awaiting CD but i'm just saying!)

How long did it take Michelangelo to paint the chapel? It was no disgrace in the end. However the pope was pissed that it took so long...  So stop your Bullshit, Axl is an artist...

Well, Michaelangelo didn't want to paint the Sistine Chapel - it was a pre-condition of him getting the job of sculpting 40 or so statues for another place (which ended up not happening). I'm guessing it took so long because the Sistine Chapel is frigging huge, not because of any artistic block. 

compairing axl writing and singing about 13 tracks with painting the sistine chapel... wow. absurd.

This is a specious arguement. There is no relationship between time and building chemistry. I'll ?"name another band" for you. ?. .

Ever hear of the The Yardbirds (#89 on Rolling Stones greatest artists of all time)? A guy named Jimmy Page joined the Yardbirds in 1966 to play bass guitar. After everyone else quit in the summer of 1968. . . he hired Robert Plant , John Bohnam, and John Paul Jones to complete The Yardbirds tour of Scandinavia as contractually obligated. By the end of the year, they changed their name to . . . . let me clear my throat . . . Led Zeppelin. I think their first album came out in January 1969 - six months after he replaced everyone.

Yeah, but Axl doesn't wanna do this by ripping off a bunch of old blues musicians.

Really? I hear during the work he himself went around searching for founds.

I'm guessing chinese democracy took long because it is frigging huge, rather than because of artistic block.

Good example hellhole.

HellHole you're a douche. ?This ain't the sistine chapel bud, it's a cd. ?I'm fairly sure the Beatles knocked out classic cds year after year in the 60's. ?Appetite took an hour to make compared to Chinese Democracy. ?You'll have a difficult time finding someone who actually thinks this is going to be better than Appetite (although we can only hope it is!). ?My point is, just because an artist takes a long time to complete something doesn't make it better. ?In GNR's case look at Use Your Illusions. ?

Excellent post. I totally agree.

More people here could be as articulate...

Depends on your sources  :P
I'm sure he tried to do the best job possible, but there isn't any doubt that he'd rather have continued working on the papal tomb. He also rejected the Pope's instructions to decorate the chapel in much gold and precious materials, which smacks of a guy trying to get fired. "No Pope Julius Part 2, I think what God would actually want is. . . "

I don't want to over simplify things. However at the same time there are some very easy explanations for why things have taken so long. Number 1. It's important that this CD reflects the current bands lineup. When various members leave it just holds up the whole process. Then a lot of re-recording has to be done. Is it possible to keep former members on the current CD? YES. Is it preferred? NO. This will be an album that is 100 percent represented by the current ?band lineup. Out with the old and in with the new. Let's stay current. It's all about NOW.

Number 2. It's not easy to be a perfectionist. Have you ever done any kind of project in your lifetime and felt that something wasn't quite right? You felt that you could have done a better job? Axl doesn't want to release something only to end up having those same feelings afterwards. Once the CD is out there it will be to late to change shit. So feel confident that once it's released you'll be geting a top notch product that will be it's very best. The band will be happy and hopefully you will be happy.

 ?Let's all stick together to ensure the bands future success. I know that we are all frustrated right now. But there is nobody more frustrated than Axl. It's a waiting game. In a sense Axl is waiting with all of us. Things are moving ahead though and it would serve everyone better if you could focus on that one point. The bands lineup is locked in. Tours are happening and you will get a polished product in the end. So go about your day as if the CD is never coming out and then you'll be happily surprised one morning when it suddenly does.

 Rock On ?: ok:

 

 ?

The problem with that though, is that the best ideas just come to you. You can't force it. I usually have the best ideas when I'm sitting on the toilet  :rofl:

I release stuff in which I felt I could have done a better job all the time. I am a software developer who has to meet deadlines. I deliver stuff that works, even though I know there are better ways of doing things (but they take too much time).

And even when I have the time, I make the product nice enough to be proud of it.. but there always is a point in time where you just have to release the damn thing. Otherwise the whole point of making it might have become irrelevant (other solutions become available, the demand for the product disappears, etc).

And the famous loincloth...he was true to his muse. Real artists have such guts ( / balls? :P)

 The Yardbirds at the time were not as big as GNR in their heyday.  And like YOU said, they changed their name and became a new band.  So, it's not the perfect example.

Well said.  I totally agree.

I'll quote Shakespeare's Macbeth here:

Life?s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

Not calling Axl an idiot, but there has been a lot of sound and fury that, in the end, hasn't meant a lot in terms of the album's release.  I remember back in 1999 Axl saying to Kurt Lodder that they weren't doing all this work to not release the album.  That I do believe, for economic reasons more than anything else.  But eight years later, I've come to believe that assertions, performances and whatnot are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Like Polluxlm said earlier, until there's real proof that the album is imminent, it's difficult to take anything this band says at face value.  Of the four things you mention (tentative release date, Axl saying they're going to finish the album, successful tour, and updates about recording being finished), only the successful tour is valid.  What's the point of a tentative release date when you haven't finished recording, or mixing, or mastering, and the actual release date isn't going to be anywhere near the tentative one given. 

Actions speak louder than words, and other than the tour, GNR is a tough band to defend right now.

Cheers,

Andrew

Whatever the reasons for the original line up breaking up,
Axl deserves enormous credit for rebuilding a band that can carry
the GNR tradition and standards.

I went to 2 shows last year, I thought the band were superb.


And now, with the imminent release of CD, I believe the band are (finally)about
to get the respect that they deserve. The music will speak for itself.

From what I have read, Axl wanted to take a different direction to Slash, so they parted ways. If anything, Slash was the one who wanted to keep Gun's doing what guns had always done. What the original members should have agreed on from the out set, was no one band member should be allowed to take the name and perform under the name with a new line up.  :peace:

Yeah but had it not for the ex yardbird's claim on the name, perhaps we'd know the band as yardbirds.

Just words?

The recording is fucking finished and you keep repeating "it's the same"?

That's the problem with you. You won't believe what you're told. Why would you believe a track listing? It's just words you know...






/jarmo

This is a good post dude.   : ok:

I was actually just thinking the other day about some of what you wrote.   :yes:

In the sense that so many people have been bad-mouthing Axl and bitching about him. They've all pretty much blamed the whole disintegration of the original GNR on Axl. Fans of GNR and the media included.   :nervous:   :confused:

The thing I was thinking about was how Axl has been left, (not by his own choice I might add) with the mantle of GNR and has had to singlehandedly re-build GNR from the ground up. He could've just said fuck it and retired. It's not like he's a poor dude. Axl decided to not just say fuck it and you've got to admire and respect the guys perseverance. I'm sure that this whole journey for him, has been anything but easy or fun. Up until now of course as I really think Axl enjoyed himself a lot in 2006 and it's probably given him a bit of confidence and strength to finish what he started.   :peace:

Kudos to you Mr. Axl!!!   : ok:

Do you think you know Axl? If so, think again.
Oh My God was put out by the label without Axl really agreeing to it, he was more or less pressured into putting it out.
I don't think that would shatter Axl's confidence. It's a soundtrack song, get real, he had way better tracks up his sleeve even then, even though OMG is a good song.
I hate it when "fans" think they know Axl and starts spewing out shit about his "insecurities" and drawing false conclusions. That's excactly what he hates, and yes he did say so.

And I hate it when people here are unable to use the power of inference.

Super confident and pleased: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=120

Then it got the cold reception, and now it's referred to as a song that was released without Axl's permission. Clearly the public reaction affected his confidence and he was unable to admit that he was proud of Oh My God. If that isn't obvious to you, then you must believe that Axl lied in that press release about Oh My God.

Don't tell me what I do or don't believe, and don't try to force your views on other people.
I draw my own conclusions but I guess that's "asskissing" to you cool objective internet people.

This was a good post. Stated very clearly.

And for those who seem bent on denying the relevance of any of the reasons for the long wait (as if they want to believe that the only reason the album isn't out is because Axl's being difficult)... understand that the original poster was describing ONE way in which the process was most likely difficult.
We also know that Axl spent some time learning and trying different things.
We know he felt he couldn't do a traditional record without slash.
We know he replaced members several times.
We know they now feel they've made a Guns N Roses record (meaning, he was trying to make a band that would be GNR in the way the fans want, while still letting the members be themselves and have input).
We know he wanted to revisit the way Appetite was a lot of different influences.
We know they worked on at least two albums of material.
And everyone who ever worked on it says it's amazing, but they also say the songs were in fragments and that the project was mammoth (though i think that's just Axl's process. remember the interview with the guy who mixed NR?)
My point is, no matter what, it's not like we don't know this album was a big order and a lot of work went into it.
And then, yes, there were legal problems... and you know what else? Maybe the band had lives, and things happened in those lives.

I get upset every passing year without a release too, but i just don't get being angry.
Stevie Wonders last album was his first in 10 years, but i never had a casual conversation in a bar where someone said "yeah i'm a big stevie wonder fan, but i'm so pissed at him for not releasing anything new lately, he's such a dick!"
But GNR fans say things like that all the time, and it really doesn't make much sense.

And by the way, Michaelangelo knew what God actually wanted... Chinese Democracy.

So I gather from reading these pages , that the album is done , besides small items of detail.And we are just waiting patiently for a press junket of some kind offering a release date ?

Recording is done, and mixing has begun. As far as i know that's the last word we got (correct me if i'm wrong).

Does any of you know the exact date that , this was reported ...I am trying to get a idea of how long this mastering project reflects

 ?glad to finally see some proper discussion ?: ok:

 ?i'll agree with what's been said here on both fronts...to some extent.
 ?the bottom line is that this year as well as 2006 have been watersheds in the fusion of GNR as a proper band...
- the tour went much better than 2002 (not sure on ticket sales, but as a band-effort...A++)
- songs leaks, GNR getting more coverage for music as well as concerts
- a measly attempt at Fan-based and public PR...that i hope will actually spring back to life once CD comes out
- BBF has (thank God for him) provided to the "select" media a fairly cohesive and unified image of the band...
- solid performances, solid new songs, etc...

 ?HOWEVER...what i think people need to realize with open eyes and objective reasoning, is that to the rest of the world, GNR still needs to prove themselves...

- there's been no proper media discussion of the other members of the band...none...BBF talking to various online sites and creating internet dialogue doesn't really go that far

- the communication that Axl spoke of is once again absent...lol...updates on what the crew thought of some indie band is pointless...i believe we were told that we were going to be updated on the status of the album/single/promotion...saying two lines: recording's done. mixing now, is...well...is it really enough? are we closer as fans to the group than we were at the beginning of the 2006 tour? BBF's discussion of GNR has been enigmatic at best. the more you build a raport with the general public, the better. you're complaining that the media has a bad take on Axl and GNR? too bad...live with it...the world's opinion in general is divided, and enough with making Axl seem like cannon fodder for the media...he's not some martyr for rock...

- i for one was put off by the attitude of the GNR camp to all of the people that had issues w/ either the late start, etc...Tommy telling us to either get on board or fuck off? wow...Beta's insults on here were the icing on the cake...and Del James with his blog-cum-gossip column attack on some fans was beyond puerile...hard to think these people are well in their adulthood...and NO, it's not rock n' roll...it's called MANNERS and professionalism...BBF should give them a little crash course

 ?Bottom line is this...think OUTSIDE of the forum world of HTGTH or other fan forums...think of what the general impression of the band is...can you blame them?

 ?People need to be A LOT more open minded to the situation of GNR in the public sphere...

 ?I'm as eager for the album as everyone is, but the reality of the situation is that too much doubt has accumulated over the past couple of years, and especially months...don't categorize the fans that voice differring opinions as non-fans or start some crusade on behalf of Axl & GNR on forums...
 ?The fact of the matter is that whoever posts on this (and other) forums POST because they're still fans of the band...they'll be the first to buy the album (and try to be realistic about it...they will).

 ?Now let's start hassling Mysteron to poke the GNR camp and ask for some updates again...official tourdates? single coming up? yes/no?

awesome post man , nice read...

It's enough for now. Until there's other news to report.





/jarmo

so we can assumne with logic that the album is still being mixed ,


newsflash , it doesnt take a month or even 3 weeks to mx a album

I'm sorry but thats just a stupid attitude.   They'll give us an update when the update is READY.   

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Does it matter?

It's one step in the album making process.

If they just post a "the mixing is done" update, certain so called fans won't be happy with that. So why bother? Just wait until they get to the "announce release date" step instead.




I'm glad you know the process of mixing this particular album.  : ok:






/jarmo

mixing of all albums in 2007 fall under the same concept ...this isn't reel to reel , and I can offer you some personal resume background on myself to prove that .

Its pretty hard to believe what you're told with this band. I'm still waiting on that release date Axl said he was going to give in 2004 :hihi:

Don't get me started on finishing touches.

You really are unbelievable.....

I'm not gonna mention why this is different once AGAIN.

It's fucking pointless to try to explain it to some of you because you just refuse to think.

I've posted examples on why things are different now and yet you guys keep posting "it's the same, it's the same, it's the same, it's the same, I'm not listening to you because it's the same, it's the same, it's the same".






Enlighten us then. Tell us how long it took to mix Chinese Democracy.

The truth is, you have no idea. You base it on what others do.

We don't even know if all the tracks were mixed in one batch or if they were mixed at various times over the last few weeks.

Yet you claim to know all these things about how long it took.....




/jarmo

I didn't say how long cd takes I am telling you it doesnt take a month or even 3 weeks in general dude ,


I qoute myself here for you to understand ,"mixing of all albums in 2007 fall under the same concept ...this isn't reel to reel , and I can offer you some personal resume background on myself to prove that ."

  i'll add emoticons next time to underscore the sarcasm

One of the best posts I've ever read in a GNR forum. Brilliant, and I agree 100%

I specially agree with what you say about Robin. Axl Rose did something impossible: he succeded on rebuilding completely a mythical band like Guns without losing that myth and without losing the ''big league band'' status. And even more: he found , if there was one in the world, the right replacement for a heavyweight guiitarist like Slash. Robin not only replaced Slash properly, he also gave some things to the band that I've never seen in Slash. He's skillful, but he is incredibly charismatic, cool and he has tons of attitude onstage. You know... his face doesn't lie... he's happy of being a GNR member, he enjoys playing live and that feelings are transmited to the fans/audiences.

Musically, Axl found right replacements for everyone. And more, because if we exclude nostalgic arguments/excuses, this band sounds better than the old lineups, and we can smell in the air (considering the leaked songs and how the band sounds in the live shows) that the musical direction that this current lineup is taking is much more complex, open minded and risky.

I do not have an album to strengthen my thoughts. But I just know it. That's why I can wait all that is necesary for the album. I dont consider myself in the conditions of ''demanding'' an album. I prefer to wait, and in the meantime, I have lots of bootlegs to watch and hear, because the world is full of fast-cheap-crap music and bands that release one shity album after another. GNR gave me some scraps of music in 2006 and Im still amazed and shocked. 4 leaked-unfinished tracks in 128 kbps quality and I cant listen to any other music. What is yet to come will be better, so... why ''demanding''? Why not being a little grateful?

Axl Rose is the one that made it possible. He wrote all the songs we fell in love with. Let him and his band, Guns N' Roses, decide when the album needs to be released. I dont think this can be hard...

You're pretty unbelievable yourself. All you have ever done is make excuses or defend this band, never admitting any wrong they do, and tell people "true fans" don't give any criticism towards the band, which is the biggest mindless follower dribble I've ever heard. According to this line of thinking GNR does NO wrong. Ever. No matter what they do you turn it around on the fans and make it their fault, or they're wrong some how, not the band.

And for the record, since you clearly don't understand, why people say its the same is because of a track record, the history of this band. This point has been made several times but YOU and some others refuse to accept it.

If Axl shit on your floor you'd find a way to defend him for it. Man, some of you really make it embarrassing to tell people your a fan of GNR.

I think EVERYONE is wrong... and this is just my oppinion.

Don't ANY of you think it's a little odd to go from being dirty rock n' roll drug addicts with an album (AFD) that had a Robot Rape/Skull Cross on the cover, to an album with Freemason art on the cover?... with the kind of ode lyrics that UYI had?... and quoting movies? Don't ANY of you think it's a little odd that Izzy didn't even KNOW that "My World" was on the abum until he practically saw it on the shelf of a record store when we all did?

No one in the media EVER asked the right questions and neither do any of you. And God forbid if someone DOES bring this stuff up, they'll get flamed and called a conspiracy theorist. I found out for myself where the UYI art and some of the images in the "Don't Cry" video came from by reading BOOKS.... books that were eventually made into a movie called "The Davinci Code." I'd say that puts him about 15 years ahead of his time.

I think Chinese Democracy will be as complex and awesome as UYI ended up being, with just a little bit of the perfectionist thing thrown in. I think Axl is working on the "Secret Weapon" from that 1994 interview, and I think THIS time around, it'll be many times as epic as UYI and WELL worth the wait.

i never really thought of it that way, i mean it makes sence. Great post dude nice thinking : ok:

you totally get it...one of the best posts I have ever read...The expectations for the record are unbelievable...Lets review what is expected of Axl....He needs to follow up albums that made GNR the biggest band on the planet...AND..he has to do do it without the original line-up..AND he's had to find just the right players..AND on top of finding the right players for the band there is the whole writing the songs thing, AND hes had to deal with certain players coming and going..AND hes had to deal with an unbelievable amount of scrutiny from fans and the press..AND he has to deal with  people who are still talking about a reunion of the original line-up..AND he has to deal with a market for rock music that is much smaller than it was in the 90's...AND he also has to deal with people referring to the new band as "replacement players", "Hired Guns" or "whatever cronies Axl has working with him this minute" despite the fact that most of these guys have been in the band for several years..AND he has had to deal with getting on stage and winning fans over every night they go out there..Axl has plenty of money..so why does he do this?  He is just trying to keep the integrity of the GNR name and make the best record that he thinks he can make..and for this he gets shit on all the time by his OWN FANS no less.....This is only a handful of the things Axl has had to deal with over the past 15 years...and the thing I dont understand is  right now, here in 2007 we are closer to seeing this thing released than we ever have been...yet we still have people complaining...if you have been around for the past 15 years what is another few months??  You guys are sitting here complaining about how long it is taking to mix the album or print the cd booklets... :confused:

I agree with everything YOU said too... plus my crazy theory about his "Secret Weapon" and the album being many times as epic as UYI... and well worth the wait  : ok:

It's also really easy to sit around and let your MONEY make money. So mad props for him doin' time in the studio, gettin' out there on stage so many nights last year and so many more to come THIS year  :beer:

Look.? I think alot of the frustration comes from this.? If it's taking GNR this long to put out this album, how long will it be for the next one?? And the next one after that?? I know that's what upsets me the most about all of this waiting.? Axl is a perfectionist.? This I know.? And this project is his pride and joy.? He does'nt want to put out something that is sub-par in HIS mind and he wants to make sure he's happy with it.? What upsets me the most is that this perfectionism may lead to even further perfectionism in the future and we will be stuck with a very small overall GNR catalog when it's all said and done.? Axl's not getting any younger and he probably only has 10, 15 years tops in him left to create music.? It took that long alone to release this...if not longer (and we don't know that yet).? My biggest dissapointment is the lack of art from my favorite artist that I will be able to enjoy for the rest of my life.

How sad for you, that you don't get what you want. On the other hand, GNR aren't spending your life working on their music, they're spending their time. It would probably be more fulfilling for them if they were happy with the record than if you're happy with it, so it seems fair that they get to decide when it's "done." There's no point in being prolific if only half of your work ends up being any good.

Oh come on.  I'm not saying I don't understand the perfectionism.  I'm just telling you how I feel personally.  And yeah, it is sad.  To me.  And only to me and I realize that.  I don't expect anyone to feel bad for me...GNR fan, non GNR fan, or GNR band member.  And I don't expect/want them to change what they do just for me...a fan.  However, I actually WOULD be happier if we got more quantity rather than what one guy considers quality.  But again...that's just me.  I look back to many, many years ago when I was desperate to hear anything new from Axl.  After TSI was out.  When Sympathy came out, I was thrilled.  That meant just one more song from my favorite artist.  Axl on Gilby's album.  Again...more for me to listen to and enjoy.  I'd like to say that the list goes on and on and on, but I can't.  What else have we got?  Oh My God.  It's Alright (which was new to me when I heard it on Live Era).  And a handful of demos.  And that's it.  I just am a little upset at the fact that I've been basically a music fan and a fan of this band for 2/3rds of my life and all I've got to enjoy, disect, break down, analyse are less than a hundred songs.  Unfortunately...I don't see that list getting much bigger due to this wait.  I'm just a bit saddened by this and I wanted to vent a bit.  Ok?

It's just like Axl said in an interview in '02 ("We're not a group of guys that just met at a bar"). If he'd have gone out and got a bunch of regular guys, chances are they probably couldn't reach Axl's vision. I think a lot has to do with how Axl gels with each of these guy's souls and personalities, so he had to search and search until he found the right group of guys. Perhaps is all of these guys had fallen into place earlier, we wouldn't be waiting, but you just gotta wait for the right time for things and Axl didn't want to risk blowing it. I have all the trust in the world and you all should to. Axl, after all these years, has gathered possibly one of the best lineups in rock history and I can't wait to hear what they've come up with. Have faith...

This is just another BS excuse people tell themselves to take the blame off Axl for the album not being out.

Chemistry doesn't take decades to build. It's not something you can manufacture in a studio, it's either there or it isn't.

If Axl is trying to build something that lives up to the old band, then we're never going to see this album. It's never going to happen, and if he wanted that why not just bring the original band back? New music means he should move into the future. Constantly trying to "rebuild" what already was (which I believe was his quote to Kurt Loder) will NEVER EVER EVER happen because you just can't rebuild something like that. That kind of magic just "happens".

 Two, three and four years ago there was NOTHING! Nobody knew if they would even hear from Axl again. Then last year we all got a very pleasant surprise. There will be more surprises to come. Just hang tight. Frustration is understandable. You guys have a right to be pissed. But the band has every intention to make it up to you. Enjoy the concerts and let's rock the mother fucking house!

You whiners keep fucking whining about there not being any news and how it's the same as in 2001, but when there's actual news you refuse to believe it.

Of course everything is the same when you disregard actual news.

No wonder you're so bitter all the time.


Keep mentioning the "track record". Maybe you can look up in that track record if there's a mention of the recording being done. Get back to me when you find it.



By that logic, you could say many things are the same. Just ignore the news you see on TV or read about in the papers.

Live in your little bubble where nothing  has changed.  : ok:




Once again, another example of somebody who refuses to think. Instead you try insulting me.

 :hihi:




/jarmo

nope, but I think I can come up with a number of articles that said "music 90% finished, vocals 80% done" (or something like that), ever since '99.

it's like the kid who cried woolf to many times... you'd still doubt him even if he started yelling "bear".
nothing changed.

personally, I think this is the year, and I guess the album would come either june (19th :D) or november...
but I can undestand why some people might be bitter.
on the other hand i dont undestand how some others can have so much blind faith.



and if album accidently doesnt come out this year(god forbid), I can still see the same people still preaching, and calling guys haters for no reason.

I know you can. But how is "almost done" or "90% done" the same as finished?



On the other hand, Axl said this in January 2006: "We're working on thirty-two songs, and twenty-six are nearly done"

Many people here still talk about them working on just one album.

Now, imagine if the average song is about three minutes long. 3 x 32 = 96. You can't fit that one one cd.......  :hihi:



/jarmo

will CD be a double album? or released as 2 separate albums at the same time or over time  :peace:

Another brilliant post. It's pretty funny how the only well thought-out and intelligent posts around here are written by Axl supporters. For all you worthless piece of shit haters who talk about how Axl is too "insecure" to release the album, fuck off, the band doesn't need your support.

he has me convinced. but I understand if some people still have their doubts. even if the recording is done, they can still be afraid that the mixing might drag on.
I'm also a little bit paranoid when it comes to this tour, since it might take away time from Axl being involved into the mixing process...



yeah, that's great, but it's 3 album wort of material, not necessarily 3 albums.
and I guess only the 13 that are slated for CD are actually done.
I cant see Axl, the perfectionist that he is, finishing all 32 songs, releasing the 13 on CD and leaving the other 19 alone...
he'll probably tinker again with those (which is not a bad thing).

but I guess this is the 1st time u and I actually agreed on something : ok:

There are some well reasoned posts on this thread. ?

I personally doubt there is any one single reason for the time taken to finish this album; forming of the band and getting the right group together, the desire for "perfectionism" in all aspects of the CD, outstanding legal issues, and other unknown reasons (e.g. possibly some of the factors why 2002 tour was cancelled) have probably all contributed...

At the end of the day very few people know the whole story, it's just guess work and surmising. ?I am sure the CD or the whole saga behind it will be come out sometime, though I wouldn't necessarily say soon is the word

if Axl writes a book, I bet it would sell better than CD.
people are more interested into "what the fuck was going on" than in the actual music.
it's like a soap opera.

I wasn't insulting you. People take things wayyyyyy too personal. I'd have no problem with anything in the GNR world right now if it weren't for the snottyness of you and others who jump on anyone who aren't completely in love with everything Axl does. That's what's driving people away. He's like the Wicker Man around here. I might be a "whiner" but I'm not going be Axl's lapdog. A lot of the negativity is caused by FANS around here more than the band. If you say, or suggest, one thing that you wish the band would or wouldn't do, or voice an opinion of something you don't like, you're instantly slapped with one of the many witty titles you guys have for anyone who speaks their mind. Its called an opinion and everyone has one and should be able to express it. If you keep getting called negative or a whiner, that's exactly what you're going to get. That is a legit observation, not an insult... I can't say the same about the "supporters" posts around here, though.

So everything you hear on TV, or read in a magazine is real, huh? Just believe what your told? Don't question or criticize? Riiiight? ?::) Boy, George Dubya would love you, man.

And everyone has a trackrecord.

I think we both have our bubbles, even though mine was made up by you, but I don't want you to feel lonely : ok:

I'm not disregarding real news, I'm holding out a bit of healthy skepticism. And that doesn't make me any less of a fan, or make me a "hater".
 :peace:


 

Been telling everyone all along - this most likely isn't ging to be a single CD of 13 tracks.  I would imagine a minimum of a double-album if not a 3-Cd set.  Whether it will be sold sold seperately or packaged as one set is anyone's guess, but i would bet 2-3 CD's. 

That's very highly unlikely for a number of reasons.

Really???  LOL  I gotta hear this...start listing the reasons.

Axl said so

Axl says a lot of different things so I wouldn't use a year old quote to say how many tracks are gonna be on the album.
The last time he said 13 tracks, there were many numbers before that, I guess we'll have to wait...

Boo-fucking-hoo.

The problem is that you're not "in love" with anything about the band. Or at least you won't post about it if you are.

So you stick to the old "whine, bitch, moan and repeat" routine.



No, but you don't seem to believe anything unless it's something negative.

People like you are often criticizing and questioning what the band says while believing what people who weren't present say.




Yes you are. You and others who say it's the same as in 2001 are disregarding the news that the recording of the album has been finished.

What the fuck is real news? If it's on GN'R's official site it's not real?




Yeah, we don't know how many tracks are on the album, but it's funny how all these people who keep complaining are disregarding all kinds of interesting information.




/jarmo

The number of tracks may differ, but hardly in the sense that it becomes a second or third disc.

Why are you even here? You seem depressingly bitter with your negativity in every post.

It could. I doubt it, but anythings possible.

CD will be a double album.  : ok:

How about you stay the fuck away from me if you don't have anything usefull to say.

I wouldn't say anything. The best deal for the record company is to shelf out albums with intervalls so they can maximize sales, I don't think Axl got the leverage anymore to push through something against their will, and I don't think he wants to either.

A double album would be more expensive to purchase. ?The record company knows that if it's more expensive, people who are on the fence about buying something new from a band that hasn't released anything in so long they may lean against buying it.


That's the most obvious reason why it's unlikely to be a double album. ?Another reason is we've never really heard any indication from the band that it will be more than one album. ?Also, double albums are sort of rare these days, aren't they?

Actually, it does, because "whiners" have always been right, but also have always been loyal. Everytime someone says the album won't be out by such-and-such, they're called a whiner. And yet, every single fucking time they've been right. If the band is not held accountable, it will continue to tread water. Sadly, it seems that action is only taken by fans nowadays. In 91, there were the other band members to say 'enough is enough, let's release this' but now that doesn't seem to happen.

Maybe you're so optimistic because you've been here one whole month and a half (wow-ee!).

By the way, you never told me what you thought of the OMG press release that I used earlier in this thrad. Please let me know what you think, oh great, wise one.

Gn'R can't pull of a double album.


They aren't on the same popularity level as the Chili Peppers no more.

my mums dog died today, could do with some good news to cheer me up!!! you listening Mr Rose??????

Yep, he's definitely gonna release something soon now.

Holy fuck man!!!   :rant:

I can't believe all of the fucked-up little mini-wars that are constantly going on around here with some of you dudes.   :confused:

It's really not getting any of us anywhere and not changing a single fucking thing.   :confused:

Can't everybody try to calm down a bit and stop being so bitter about this shit???   ???


 :peace: :beer: :smoking:

Hard to say that this isn't a good point, no matter what side of the issue you're on.

Are you kidding me???  LOL  the chili peppers are ok and all but if people walked into a Best Buy and saw three volumes of new GNR albums on the shelf with the right marketing push they would outsell the chili peppers three times over - even if the albums were packaged together or seperately.  Sorry, but i gotta disagree with you here.  This album, though painstakingly long in development, has become legendary and it will sell.  If the marketing and first single along with video hit right, it could easily get to the top of the charts and stay there for a bit.  But, we'll see.

^ People won't spend 30-40 dollars on a band that's had as much negative press (and if anyone remembers that VMA performance  :nervous: ) as Axl's new GN'R has.

One disc could do well on the charts with a good marketing plan, but a double or triple album would never be allowed by the record company. Best thing to hope for is a release the following year of unused material.

or maybe brand new material!!!!

But that caveat is really the key, isn't it. ?The marketing has to be much heavier than just the "proper marketing" we have heard about. ?It would have to be pretty insane for this band. ?I'm talking lots of interviews to lots of different mediums and lots of public (televised) performances and such for a long, very consistant amount of time before the album is released. ?Not just the blurbs we get on the website hinting at a release and scattered articles here and there that frankly lean more to the "GNR...who cares" side of the fence. ?I just don't see that happening, and I don't want that happening. ?If that was going to be done, then the album would not be as imminent as alot of people around here seem to think.

Oh, where do I begin... Boo-fucking-hoo, nice touch, and so ironic :hihi:

Of course I love this band, and you can find many, many posts of mine over the years where I've displayed that love... but what else can I say about them? There's nothing really new going on. I'm not just going to keep showing my affection over and over, repeat. Am I excited the album is finished? Yeah, but I'm not going to blow my load over it because I KNOW and YOU KNOW Axl could change his mind at any time and go back and record again. That's a fact, and its a very real possibility.

Am I going to drop to my knees and worship at the temple of Axl because Del gave a blurb update and because a tour I already knew was happening was announced? Fuck no. That's fucking lame as all get out. I'm not going to post my undying devotion to a band over that. That's like all the shameless "I love jarmo" "jamo is so awesome" posts that pop up. Sad. It's good that they're updating, but its what they're updating that matters. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they do update. I'm very happy. I appreciate it. But I'll save the cartwheels for when they update something I care about. Does being a fan mean I have to care about some update reguarding some stupid ass band making comments about Axl's security? No.

What the fuck is real news? If it's on GN'R's official site it's not real?

Uh, cookoo...cookoo...cookoo...

I'd like to know where I've called the band or Axl a liar. I have supported him, and actually disproved negative rumors before. Thank you. But lets look back and I'll show you why I might hold doubt about news or updates coming from GNR:

GNR has announced tours that Axl didn't seem to know about.

GNR has not finished a tour since 2001 for various said and unsaid reasons.

GNR has said the album would be released (insert year/season here) several times over the years.

People within GNR seem to have a history of undermining Axl and issuing statements he is not aware of, approves of, or has any knowledge of.

Things have been sheduled and announced, then disappear for unknown reasons never to be heard about again.

Chinese Democracy has been in the "Finishing Touches" stage for 6 years.

So when something is announced I do doubt it and I don't get my hopes up. Even though I truly believe he will release it, when the release date is announced I will still have some doubt that it will meet that date because of the above.

And I hold doubt about everything I hear outside GNR and I don't just believe negative. I'm just not going to believe everything that's come out of GNR, either.


 

If the emphasized points above are accurate, don't they contribute greatly to the multitude of problems and reversals which have hurt the band's reputation with both the media and it's fans?
In many cases where shows were announced or the album was said to be "X percent finished," hasn't it tended to be by people outside of the actual band who, when their plans backfire horribly, claim that they were trying to motivate the band (or Axl specifically) or hurry the release along, or simply make money from ticket sales. With the exception of last year's debacle, neither the band nor the record label have endorsed the many, many speculative stories about the album being close to release. They have been entirely non-committal, and when you look at how things tend to have turned out it seems to be the best approach.

Granted, if it was up to the band we would have heard no news on the album for years at a time. On the other hand, would the fans and media be so jaded towards the project if outsiders hadn't been stirring things up every couple of months?

Over the years?

You mean we'd have to go back years to find posts to see that you actually like this band?





Ok. So, why exactly are you here then?

What exactly are you doing on this board since nothing new is going on?

You like to come here to feel cool because you're unable to get excited about the band playing live shows without you in the audience?









Your posts don't show any kind of excitement.

More like the opposite with your "it's the same as in 2001" posts.






Wow, you appreciate it but it took a while for you to admit it.

Now that wasn't too difficult was it?





Now you're once again downplaying something good. It's great, but remember that it's not that great!

Right?




You mean in 2001?

It's 2007 now.




What did they do in 2006 then?

I guess you're gonna say the North American tour was cancelled because they cancelled a few shows at the end of the tour.

But in that case, did you miss the European tour?

Or maybe it doesn't count because Axl missed 1.5 songs at the end of the show?





True.

But did they ever give a tentative release date or say the recording was finished?






See above.




See above.





Well, I don't believe a release date unless it comes from a reliable source. Does that mean I have to post whiny posts day after day on this board?

I know the album will be out as soon as possible, and that's good enough for me.


But for some of you, it seems like it's not good enough. You seem to use that lack of a release date as a reason to come here and whine about everything.

I just can't relate to that.


If you don't care about the tours, if you think there's nothing going on with this band in 2007, why do you come here?

If the band hasn't managed to do anything right since 2001, why do you come here?




/jarmo

HA! All Haters ahem;polluxim,MrID;cough.........PRINT this out and duct-tape it to your forehead, the next time you are TEMPTED to rattle on with

negative BULLSHIT.....pull it off and read it!!!!


NICELY SAID!!!
KUDOS!

WC

Hello, McFly, McFly, anyone home?

Nice try on twisting my words. Too bad your argument is so fucking weak that you had to stoop to that, and give such lame responses. What do you want me to say jarmo? What kind of post would make me a true fan? Please tell me.

Its not 2001 anymore? I was showing you a track record, since you seem to have no clue what one is. Here -- You date a girl, she lies and cheats on you, you see her again years later, you have a good time with her... She would almost be perfect to marry IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW HER TRACKRECORD. :hihi:

The Chinese Democracy tour, as a whole, never finished. But that's neither here nor there, because I do understand that's who this band is. But when they piss me off I'm going to say it.

imo, the band has hardly done anything right since 2001, but thats my opinion and no one is going to control my opinion. I know how much you hate that. I love the new band and the new music, I just hate some people around them, how those people treat their fans, and I hate a lot of fans too. I try not to let those people taint my view of the band, but it is difficult.

I have posted my love for this band over and over. I come here to check out the posts, see what's going on. I don't hardly post here anymore, but there is some entertainment here from the Axlites. We know how interesting posting about Axl's clothes and how much we love Madagascar is. Hey, lets start an appreciation thread again!

I love the band, but I don't worship blindly.

And since when has wanting to hear a bands album been a bad thing? If they can't handle criticism Axl should have picked another line of work. You put yourself out there you are going to be commented on. That's life.

There is no criteria to being a fan. Maybe if the whining is getting to you, you should take a look at yourself. Are you a fan, or a pawn desperate in your overcompinsation to appease the band? If I was a judgemental prick I might try to tell people that's not a "true fan".


Look mommy, someone left the cage door open!

On second though maybe you should staple your copy of Jarmo's response to your dented forehead.........

how does it feel to look like a know-nothing fool????

mommy hit you in your head too many times with a frying pan rufus????

this is a FAN forum, not a HATERS forum.....that would be......that "other" one....maybe thats where you belong!!


you are really looking like an ass right about now....maybe the preparation H wasn't a good Idea for a facial scrub!!!!


WC

More insults?

Or maybe this was aimed at somebody else again and not me personally.....






Weak? There's the facts for you to think about. Get back to me when you have looked at them and answered the question.





I know what a track record is. Nice try of trying to insult me again.  ::)

I pointed out what was wrong with your claims and that's the best you can do?





Maybe because the same tour is starting up again in April?




No, I don't hate it. I just can't relate to spending time on something I hate.






There's new music?

You mean there's something else to whine about than what Axl said or didn't say?



That's a lot of hate. Can't be healthy.

Funny how you have all this hate for people (you don't even know) and then some of you wonder why I have some problems with people like you.




I thought nothing was going on.....



Axlites?  ::)





Many people are like that.

But they don't come here to point out everything that's wrong.





So are you calling me a prick now?



I just don't see a place on this board for somebody like you.

You obviously can't relate to people being happier about what the band is doing in 2007, compared to say 2005.


You're like one of those bitter persons at a party trying to bring everybody else down.


Or that one guy who's never happy.

This is basically you:

Me: It's sunny outside!
You: Yeah, but it rained all week and it'll probably rain tomorrow too! It sucks! I'm not gonna let somebody tell me it's not sucking! I hate all of you who think it's great to have sunny weather today.



You can keep calling me an ass kisser and come up with your bullshit ideas of why I do the things I do. I know the truth, you and others like you have no clue whatsoever.

I just refuse to let a few people like you turn this place into a "nothing is right, everything sucks" kind of place.





/jarmo

That was not an insult, I was actually proving a point about how people are treated around here. Lets see "whiners" and "Axlites"... Kind of evens out.

"Weak? There's the facts for you to think about. Get back to me when you have looked at them and answered the question."

I really have no idea what facts you're talking about, if you can show me, fine. All I know is that you keep bringing up 2001 for some reason. As for the best I can do, I'm saying that it is difficult to believe everything that's come out of GNR when Axl himself has said that statements out of GNR on behalf of him, the band and the album were false. And before you bring up 2001 again, this was just a few months ago.

fwiw, that part was in no way an insult. Just thought I'd point that out.

"There's new music?

You mean there's something else to whine about than what Axl said or didn't say?"

When I say weak, this is what I mean. That really made no sense, unless it was a stab at humor.

Going on, as in what's going on on the board, btw.

on blind worship:

"Many people are like that.

But they don't come here to point out everything that's wrong."

Well that would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? :hihi: But they whine the MOST. They jump down peoples throat for innocent comments, and I'm not just talking about the assholes who start shit. They are a HUGE part of the problem of what's going on around here, and they're insults have been ignored.

I didn't call you a prick, that was a description of a person who tells someone they are or aren't a fan. Like you respond all the time about no one knowing who you are to those who criticize you....

Its more like:

you: Its sunny outside.

me: the weatherman said there was a chance for rain, though.

you: Stop fucking being so negative, you fucking whiner!

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to somebody like you....hater/whiner........

hell, that deserves repeating.....take all your negativity elsewhere, need a suggestion???? You ain't gonna like it......but I am rapidly losing patience

with people like you........

you do not know what you are talking about
Jarmo does......

FACT!


WC

Game, set, and match.  :rofl:

Jarmo, this is silly. ID, is not a hater at all. He has been defending Axl on the internet for at least 7 years now. Davegnfnr2k, ID, and I were saying the album will come out ?soon back in 1999-defending Axl on the Rolling Stone board. You have to agree that the album release is the biggest prick tease in the history of rock and roll. Seriously, just think about it. In essence, all ID is saying is that he, like me, doesn't believe a word anyone in the band says about the release or the recording of Chinese Democracy. Why would a sane person? On the other hand, I do believe it when they say they are going to tour. Why? Because they actually follow through 90% of the time-minus a few cancellations. Sure, things look better and feel right now. However, I don't think you need to keep running down fans. If they are that much of a pain in the ass, ban them or just simply delete their posts once they repeat themselves for the 800th time. Maybe you should just stay out of these discussions and let the topics just die a natural death. Just a suggestion. It's your party, you can cry if you want to! :peace:

ha!! Checkmate...! !!

why in the universe would you spend the time to come on here and insult and slag the band???? stupidity in motion!!


Peace
WC

Wrong.


I assume by "Axlite" you mean a blind follower.

My guess is that that person would be positive and supportive of the band. That is  : ok:

A whiner is somebody who's trying hard to bring everybody down. Somebody who's not interested in trying to understand that not everything is black. All the time.

Now, I don't think we need those people here.


This place wasn't created for you to come here and feel good about yourself because you're not an "Axlite".




For example, you said the band hadn't finished a tour. I showed you the fact that they had.





If you come here to complain about the band day after day, chances are some people won't like it.






No, you forgot the whole "they haven't done anything right since 2001" part....

Also, add to that:

me: Stop fucking being so negative, you fucking whiner! Chances are the sun is here to stay for the rest of the summer! Go out and enjoy it while it lasts! And if it rains, there'll be more sun at a later date. No need to be so negative!

That's more like it.



Look what happened to Dave.

I see a pattern....  :nervous:

 :hihi:




The interesting thing is that some of these fans actually are able to admit that things might not always be black or white like they claim day after day....


I'm not attacking anybody who doesn't deserve it.

If you've been here for a while, you'd know that this is a fan site. We're here because we like the band. We think that the album will be out and we want to hear it.

If you come here with an attitude like "I was a fan in 1987 when you weren't and I hope they reunite because this new band sucks", you won't be welcome here.

If your attitude is "they're not doing anything right and you're all idiots for being excited about these shows", you're not gonna feel welcome either.


If I wanna read about how much this band sucks, I wouldn't go to a fan site.


If I didn't believe that there was some great music coming from this band, I wouldn't have started the site in the first place. And I'm not gonna let some people on the Internet tell me everything sucks when after all those years of nothing things are actually happening.



/jarmo

This post was pretty much the ultimate punch in the face to the haters, kudos on that one. I think this post pretty much sums things up. Most of us are here because we are thrilled to finally see some activity with this new band and we are exctited about the new record, we don't need you negative so-called "fans" to try and bring us down day after day with your pitch black view on things. So I think this sums it up, if I read Jarmo's post right. If you are here to spread negativity among fans, leave. We don't need you, and Guns N' Roses certainly doesn't.

Yeah, that was very nicely worded....a TKO on the haters and whiners ..........DESERVEDLY!

(and much more calm and pleasant than if it had come from me! I'm not nearly as NICE)

Sooooooo haters, whiners and miscreants........now that you have been torn a new one, might wanna go lick your wounds (if you can)

warchild....!

Yeah, old Dave refused to believe that a firemarshal and the city of Portland had a personal agenda and put a conspiracy together against Axl ::)

Axlite = Blind follower. Sums it up.... But you take up for them.

I don't come here to bash the band, or feel good about myself, or bring anyone down. If you have evidence that I have I'd like to see it. And I doubt my whole 3-4 posts a week could possibly bring anyone down.

"For example, you said the band hadn't finished a tour. I showed you the fact that they had."

But jarmo, you just said the CD tour hasn't finished yet ???

I'm not spreading negativity. I just pointed out that Axl himself has said false statements have been made on behalf of GNR and I also did this without insulting Axl, so it was not bashing.which I NEVER have. My point is I have an opinion, and I will not be force fed bullshit of what a fan is by other FANS. And it remains, I have a legit reason to doubt information that comes from the band, and not one of you is able to discredit. :-*

 

I can understand the optimism from the members who are, I'll say, "fresh" here. But certainly the long time optimists must at least comprehend the reason why so many fans (real fans, ticket buying fans and album buying fans) are bitter over the state of things. But we know there is no substitute for Axl. There's no option to leave, because nothing will fill the void. So we vent frustrations in a public forum, and leave feeling a little calmer and happier.

Until some newb who came here in 2007 tells us we aren't real fans when they couldn't name the 8 band members just a few months earlier.

As a GNR fan for 20 years or more it seems like, I couldn't agree with some of you more!  I don't know what Axl is going to do nor does anyone on this board.  he is probably reading this bickering and laughing.  We've waited this long for an albumn already and over-analyzing things gets nothing accomplished.....so if you really love the band and the music why don't people just accept the fact that Axl has his way of handling things and the albumn is coming out when he's frickin ready.  end of story 

It's like they say, birds of a feather flock together.

Yes, they do don't they? Your post proves it.

Mr ID.....hater.whiners.......

Plans change, shit happens.......maybe not in YOUR world, but in everybody else's it's a given..........

and to react to said changes and shit happening, sometimes you have to roll with the punches......you are nit-picking and assuming

so, Mr. Doom and Gloom......whine elsewhere!! OR expect to be fucking attacked by those of us that still believe......

I wouldn't be here if I didn't...I don't have time to waste, or much anyway....

yeah we still believe......come hell, high water or varying shades of grey,come what may......

G&R Motherfuckers....believe it!

warchild

and birds of a feather DO flock together, so do PIGS and SWINE....(that is the rest of the rhyme. very fitting!)

No wonder you're so bitter.....  ::)



As I said, as long as they're supportive and positive.





Well, I'd say statements like "they've done nothing right since 2001" is bashing the band.

Calling people who support the band "Axlites" and blind followers is also something you might wanna think about not doing in the future.




Now you're taking things out of context.

You said this band hadn't managed to finish a tour. I told you they did last year.

An European tour and a North American tour.


They're both part of the World Tour..... At this point we don't know how long this tour will be.






Oh you're not?

Your posts these past few days haven't seemed that positive...





/jarmo

I certainly don't hope you are referring to me, mr. "cool long time fan", I'll have you informed that i have been on online message boards, including gnronline.com and 2TI, waiting for this record since '99, back when the only news was about Axl's court hearings and the occasional Slash and Duff sideprojects. Check yourself. There's alot of us who have waited for this record for a long time (in my case, I became a fan in 90/91 at the age of 7) and can perfectly fine do so without hearing the negative bullshit spewed out from you negative bores. Here, have a cookie for having known the names of the band members for more than a few months, I hope that makes you feel better about yourself.

You see, so many of the Axlites like to put a little childish insult at the end of their statements. Those in here being accused of being whiners at least intelligently mock their opposing "debaters" (not a great term for this group, but it'll suffice). I was not referencing you. In time you may learn that not everything said here is about you. However, it is obvious that the majority of threads are started by members with new accounts and less than 100 posts. Obviously, they are not used to the constant disappointment common to this band. And, therefore, do not like to hear that their stay here may be a bumpy trip. They often react poorly and violently, and end up insulting long time members. I remember lurking here throughout 05, and back then that'd be a ticket to a ban.

Sadly, that has gone out of fashion.

Most of the statements/storys that have come from the band/old management regarding touring/incidents/cancellations have turned out to be true...

Unfortunately a lot of the statements regarding the album release have turned out to be false hope, but us fans put so much pressure on the band to throw us something, maybe most the time people in the band are just throwing stuff out there to get us to lay off or shut up.

The only thing you can REALLY complain about that happened last year was the repeated "13 tuesdays left this year", "you'll see the album before the end of the year", Axl on Mtv "it's coming this year"... however he manned up and apologized for the whole deal or he had his attorney/Merck write a letter of apology, it really makes no difference as Axl seen it, approved it, and it reflected his thoughts. I'm a fan of this band, they are my favorite band, yeah it's hard at times to get teased with a "tentative" release date and we get ourselves too excited, but 2006 was a very good year, 2007 is shaping up fine imo, there is nothing that has happened that proves a release is not imminent. The only dissapointment of 06 besides no album was Merck leaving in my opinion. :peace:

Not to go completely off topic here, Communist China, but calling Axl supporters "Axlites" and talking about "n00bs" who couldn't name the band members a few months ago isn't childish, right? I'm glad you view yourself as an intelligent debater, perhaps it would be more convincive if you took your own advice and refrained from mocking people with different views from you.

Wow... just... Wow... I'm really glad you said that. It really says so much.

The Dave thing doesn't bother me, he was dropping this board anyway, like so many others are doing, and will continue. Which is unfortunate because this used to be a great board. I don't mean that as a stab at you, it really is sad seeing what happened since management left its fingerprints on it.

Do you remember when the old line up fans were here? I was the one who was defending my favorite band, jarmo. Now the fans have mutated into what management wants them to be... Being realistic and negative are 2 different things. I love the band, but I call a spade a spade. Call that a hater, fine. The opinions on this board of 'true fans' really don't mean anything anymore.

My point is still valid.

The best thing about the new album will be the threads won't degenerate into stuff like this and we'll all be able to talk about the studio versions of the songs along with comment from band members regarding the musical/studio future of this line-up.

To be honest, noone cares about who's been a fan of the band the longest, active online the longest or has the most posts.

I've been online since about 2000, yet I don't feel the need to whine.

Not really surprised you quote Communist China, who has been very diplomatic in this thread, but not the others who were spewing their own negativity.

exactly....been a supporter of G&R since 89...........not online that long though, but quite a while.....this seems irrelevant and it does no good to slam

the new Fans........does it CC?



WC

So you're a "true fan" because you complain then, is that how I understand this post? That's pretty funny. What about those of us who grew up with GN'R when Slash and Duff were still in the band and still manage to not whine about the new band? I have been a fan of this new band since the start and a fan of the old band since the early 90's, but so what? Why this nonsense about being a "true fan"? And your shit arguments about "mutating into what management wants us to be", just because we don't complain, really knocks all your credibility from under your feet. It's ridicilous. Who cares how long you have been a fan? How dare you call yourself a "true fan"? An 8 year old girl who saw Axl on MTV yesterday for the first time is a fan I would respect more than those who have been forcing their negativity down the throats of happy fans for 5 years.

Oh good, I aim to please.

Alright MisterID, ?
First let me say, you've posted 2600+ times, I am sure w/o looking back through your previous posts your attitude was much different back then than it is today. ?You have a right to vent, you have a right to let loose on some things you feel strongly about.. but at the same time, challanging the head of state is ridiculous and shows the mentality of ones personality, typically a person who doesn't even respect their parent(s) or dearest friends and will turn on them faster than they can turn off a light switch...

I've been a long time fan, check out this site daily for information and I am getting turned off by the ignorance of some people here, you included for picking arguments because something is lacking in your life and it's not GNR. ?

at this point, nothing said is best said, especially in your case... vent on the other boards, boards myself along with others choose not to go to for that simple reason. ? Like WC has said, Like jarmo has said.. this is a fan board, let's not turn this into "those" boards..

Again, myself with others I know come to the board for information, we are too old to sit and read this pointless shit people put on here thinking what they say or do may influence what the band with ultimately do...

all you are is a blade of grass in an open field, if some little kid walks up and rips you out, no one will notice and more importantly, no one will care!

This whole idea of what is and is not a fan is completely out of hand around here. It seems that if you are not in direct lock step with the propaganda pushed by the band and those associated with advancing their agenda it means that you are some how not a fan.

Saying that you aren't a fan because you disagree with the way GNR and it's management have handled matters for the past 5-8 years is like saying that I can't be a Republican anymore because I think the President and those surrounding him and giving him his advice have proven to be incompetent. It is simply not the case.

If we applied the GNR fan rational provided by many around here it would mean I am disloyal to the party and no longer a Republican because I have not taken the President for his word every single time for the past 7 years because "I don't know what he knows and plans change", even though there are a billion instances in which the explanations offered by The Whitehouse for his actions and the course of events have been proven not accurate and misleading.

We all need to take a deep breath around here and realize that the crux of the problem everyone seems to have with the band has nothing to do with the music, but everything to do with administrative BS. Disagreeing with the way they run the ship doesn't mean you aren't a fan of the music. Just as thinking the President has done an awful job of presenting and carrying out the message of conservatism doesn't make me any less a Republican.

All it means is as a member of any party or fan base you can disagree with the method of operation while still being whole heartedly behind the message. I think that even the biggest rubber-stamp "fans" can agree that the band's handlers have done a very poor job of orchestrating the band's return to the public over the past 5 years. When you look at what they were once able to accomplish, and then what they have struggled to accomplish recently, in no way can the situation be looked at as a success.

The schism in the board ?has occurred in the last year though when it was proclaimed that being a fan of the music the band makes it imperative you agree with and don't question the administrative function of presenting the band and its music to the people. Certain people on the board refuse to realize there is a tremendous difference in being a fan of the music, and being a fan of the band's management team and administrative staff. So when it is declared that the management or administrative staff have proven to be somewhat incompetent, it is turned into a "you hate the band, get out of here" call to arms.

I would like some sort of clarification as to how anyone on this board who is a fan of the music is not considered a true "fan" because they think that the business side of things is run poorly. We ultimately are here because of the music, which in turn makes us fans. But just like members of a political party, we have wildly different ideas on how to best present our message to the masses.

So the true question is is a fan considered someone who buys into the music/ideology of a movement, or the function in which it is carried out? Seems to me there are alot of very confused and short sighted people on the board right now. Being a fan of the bands music, and thinking the management of the bands affairs is awfully poor are not mutually exlclusive things. Being a fan of the music but not the way management handles the affairs does not preclude one from being a fan of the band, as they can happen concurrently. Somehow that message has been lost or distorted around here over time.

For those of you who continue to bitch and complain...why dont you just stop following the band?  Dont buy the record....If Axl is causing you so much pain, and you feel the band is screwing you over by not putting the record out when YOU want it to be out...there is a simple solution....piss off....why are you here?

 ::)
mixing politics as part of your acessment is more off topic than anything I've seen in recent threads...  keep in mind, the internet is not only in the USA but all across the world... also keep in mind, there are several if not at least 1/2 of the people who belong to this board which come from somewhere other than the U.S.

Yes, you do have the right to your opinion, of which I will not bash, just leave politics out of it.. not the place for it...

He was just using a general analogy, which would explain his point more efficiently. As a matter of fact, it made it very clear. I fuckin' adore this band's music, yet I have not been very happy on how the band has been run (management wise). Although, just because I hold this opinion, it doesn't mean that I'm right in repeating it over and over again, but on the flip side of the coin, this does not give anyone a right to call me a lesser fan when I do let my opinion on this subject be heard, which I really don't do often as I think this point has already been layed out on the line.

Because they don't have lives, that is why they are so bitter that Axl doesn't follow their timeframes.
Pretty pathetic if you ask me. How can a person with a life be this bitter at a person they've never met?

Why do we all bitch at eachother about havin no life eh? we are all equally as lifeless, just for puttin so much of our time into this - even those who keep whining about all the whining.

Speaking of which, Jarmo may aswell ban all discussion bout the album til it comes out if the whining pisses too many people off (people so lacking in initiative that they think they have to be here havin it forced down them - to whomesoever it may apply - i have seen that complaint in one or two previous posts in this thread).

Some whining is inevitable, and sometimes perfectly reasonable. Whether people should whine or not is a moot point, but some of the whiners make valid points. And even-handed points. And then it is pointed out to them that even-handedness is not tolerated here!

Moreover, I for one take exception to ANYONE who thinks they can tell anyone else what it is to be a fan.

You are a gem. What are you talking about? So now you diss Zeppelin?

My own thoughts (and I have not read all 8 pages ?so far) are ?the following;

1. the ?whole ?"squelch the negativity" thing is part of the growing censorship/get on board ?or fuck off trend ?that ?is ever more ominous. If ?this board ever loses ?its ?diversity and the right to an opinion, if ?it ?becomes monotonic, it will be BORING. Everyone should thank the dissenters ?for ?having the guts ?to say something different, if for no ?other ?reason than to keep things semi-interesting. Can you imagine how boring it would be ?if every single ?fucking post was about how the person idolized Axl and the band. If that were to happen, this board would ?close ?down ?because ?everyone with a brain would migrate somewhere else.
2. the current ?state of affairs ?is much different than 2001/2002 and I am optimistic that the album will (finally) come out.
3. it is hard ?to be patient after waiting so long, and so people are impatient. It is natural. It ?is a ?sign of loyalty (for the most ?part), not disloyalty. People are anxious ?to hear new music.

Exactly..being a "fan" does NOT mean that you are privy to each and every detail in a person's life, and you are not "entitled" to anything other than what they decide to release to the public.......why is this so fucking hard to understand??????

and yeah, situations CHANGE, plans CHANGE.....Fuck-ups HAPPEN........but it happens to EVERYBODY..........

So Mr. & ms negativity, know-it-alls or (presume it alls)......hater and whiners, if this is fucking up your life so badly I hear Britney Spears needs a new fan club......

GO...........maybe she will give you a lock of her hair :hihi:


you won't be missed!
A forum is for new fans, old fans and ?don't dis the new guys......hell you were new once!!! some of these kids are cool as shit!


G&R.....believe it!


W.

This is  actually a very intelligent post. Can't argue  with someone who knows what the word "crux" means and uses it correctly. Good job--you are right on point.

Wow - an insightful intelligent post for once.  And the politics analogy works pretty well (despite not being from the US I could still work it out!).. and I totally agree. I am a fan of the music but the management of GnR leaves a lot to be desired...

Yes it does, doesn't it?

It pretty much means "support the band and you're welcome here".





People change. Somebody who supported the band a few years ago might do the opposite today.





I remember.

But I can see similarities of what's going on now.

We have fans who remain positive and support the band, then we have these so called realist fans who point out that everything is wrong.




That's the problem, you label yourself a "true fan" because you have a different opinion from somebody who you call an "Axlite".

You seem to hate many things about the band these days. Yet you seem to take it personally when I question your motives.

You might be a fan like the rest of us, but you also have a lot of similarities with certain people who aren't fans and who only post here to cause shit.



/jarmo

Jarmo, I'm not the one taking it personal. If you're going to ban someone for using the term Axlite, even in a general sense, then that is a far cry from how this place used to be. Its not the posters who've changed. That was what I was pointing out; compare Communist China's posts in this thread with warchilds and eazyduzits and look who gets called out by a mod.

I have no motives other than voicing my opinion, and sticking up for people who do as well when they're being ganged up on and called haters or whiners and not real fans. Since we're not allowed to mention these posters in any negative light whatsoever, that fact pretty much sums it up. It's not about not supporting the band, I do and so do others. And I understand there are shit staters, but that's no excuse to let "supporters" treat others like shit, and nothing gets said to them. We are all fans here... Well, most of us :hihi:

And please, show me where I've bashed the band. I've said over and over I support them, but I'm not going to believe everything they say. That's MY choice and MY opinion. And I have pointed out the reasons several times, imo, in a very rational way. It doesn't mean I hate the band, and I have no motives to undermine the band.


floppyfish27 - Your post is completely assanine. And I'm really impressed that you know so much about me through a few of my posts on a message board. : ok:

Ganged up on?


Well, if you knew that this place is a place where people who support the band, and you didn't, maybe that'll happen.



I still think saying the band has done nothing right since 2001 is disrespectful and bashing.

By saying that, you're not even criticizing the reason we're fans in the first place, the music, you're criticizing something else.

You also say you hate people around the band, that's also personal and nothing to do with the music.


Maybe you should stick to discussing the music since you're so filled with hate regarding everything else concerning GN'R?





/jarmo

I'm not filled with hate at all, maybe I should have said I "can't stand" them instead, since hate is a strong word. I don't hate Del James, I just can't stand him, for example.

Again, I'm not talking about shit starters getting ganged up on, I'm talking about a fan voicing their opinion on a subject and getting bum rushed by a bunch of immature shit talkers with a hard on for Axl, and not only are they not told to stop, they get defended for it. I don't understand that.

I think even Axl would agree a lot of things haven't been handled right since 2001.

 

Interesting.

Any particular reason?



It goes both ways.





And when he says so, guess what happens?



/jarmo

these two posts are fucking fantastic!!!! : ok:


actually didn't michaelangelo paint the sistine chapel by himself with no help cuz he felt nobody else but him could do a proper job of it?


now we have people telling us who can and can't be a fan of GnR...nice of you to decide for axl who is deserving of being a fan of his band ::)


i dunno if they can't pull it off, but if the rumor of their contract consisting of 3 studio albums is true then why would they release more than they have to? IF they do owe threa albums we'll see 3 albums then the contract will be renegotiaited...besides let them get one out first and see what the reception is like before trying something so grand as a double album or even a followup...let alone 2 :-\

Well said Neemo-- too many people will say they hate how people interpret Axl's words and actions. That's somewhat justifiable, we don't Know what Axl thinks, then again that's why it's called speculation and not necessarily 'stupid spam'. But anyways, these people then turn around and declare who is and isn't a fan. That seems like a bigger act of arrogance to me. I don't think anyone should have any say in who is or isn't a fan. Jarmo can decide who is allowed to post on this site, but even he cannot truly say that someone is not a fan. Hell, Axl can't say that certain people aren't fans. It's internal.