Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Well I don't believe in god and I really can't see a reason why some people do so I would like to know why do people believe in god.

Is it because they are scared about the meaning of life, why are we here? There has to be a purpose for us being here!

What is it, why?

Let me preface this by stating that I've been an atheist my whole life, and now consider myself a Buddhist atheist.

The belief in a god started out as a hope to explain all we didn't know in life.  Go back about 5,000 years, and you don't have the science you have now to explain things.  So everything came from the gods.  Gods were created to fit whatever purpose the people had at the time.  If you needed a victory in war, or in a fight against something, you had a warlike, angry god (hence the early, vengeful god in the Bible).  The Greeks and Romans had numerous gods for different purposes.

Fast forward to today.  Many people still believe in a god.  For some, it was just the way they were raised.  Some are taught the Bible is infallible, God's perfect word, and the ultimate truth.  Some find a god in hopes of stabilizing their life.  A friend of mine was raised Catholic, strayed from it the last few years, and is now greatly contemplating a return to it to find some stability.

There really is no single reason one believes in a god, or chooses not to believe.  I'm an atheist because I think belief in a god makes little sense (if the universe were the size of Boston Common, the earth would be about the size of a pea-- and I'm supposed to believe that there is some all-knowing, all-powerful creature out there who cares about what a speck on a pea does?).  Before someone tries to comment, no, the Buddha is not a god.  He is just an ordinary man whom I model my actions after.

This isn't to say I hate those who choose to believe in a god.  This also doesn't mean there's no reason for me to be moral if there's no higher authority for me to answer to (I've had people try to claim that on me).  However, I still have to question the logic in following a 2,000+ year old book that claims to be the full, unedited, 100% truth on everything in the world.  Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

I'm agnostic.........

I know God doesn't exist - but choose to believe anyway

Maybe that doesn't make sense - but hell, what does when it comes to religion?

I?m a god.

I know aliens do exist (I think it's stupid not to believe they don't) and I believe in them

People say I'm crazy  :'(

Though I don't think they have visited Earth.

Originally, I believed in God because that's what my parents taught me, and I just gew up believing.

Since I had a big fallout with my Church, I reconsidered a lot of my believes, and I still believe (even if I have a problem with a lot of modern Church institutions)

I do make a distinction between Christianity and other religions, and I believe Jesus is the one true savior.   It's common and understandable to respond by saying "why do you think your God is real and not the others?", and all I can say is, look at the facts, what we do know - research the histories and what's happened.

Contrary to what Izzy says, God is the one thing that makes sense in my fucked up life and in this fucked up world.   I've felt God, God has moved me, and God has saved me time and time again, when I fuck up everything so bad, and can't escape my own flaws - all I do is look up, ask him for a way out, and it's always there, even if the path is not an easy one.

Additionally, there's so many historical reasons for believing it.  I can go into more detail into this, but, aside from the King James version, the New Testamant in all major Bible releases is basically 99.9% accurate to the original (they've have a number of copies from as early as 50 years or so after all the books were bound together), and all the other historical recordings of the time.

There was a Jesus, and he did rise from the dead after being crucified, witnessed by thousands of people, and not a single one disputed it.   No historical records of the time argue against it.  It was a major event, and everyone, even those who didn't believe in what Jesus taught, acknowledged it, according to what written history we do have.  Either the greatest historical revision of basically the greatest event ever in history occurred, and noone, anywhere, let anything out or recorded anything about it - remember, this would have to involve thousands and thousands of people - or, it really did happen.

And if the new testament is true, then so is the old.

Coupled with my own personal experiences, with God fulfilling everything he claims he would do according to the Bible, and all the historical reasons that back it up, I do believe.

America is a great proof of Christiantiy, in my opinion.  The constitution and the founders of our country all believed in the Christian way of life, and the ideals it taught us.   And coincidently, we've reaped incredible success: hard work, public education, compassion, self dependence, etc. the list goes on.  This is all straight from the Bible, and it works.  Compare this to Islam, which breeds a culture of backwardsness and impedes progress.

Edit: A lot of people look at the question of the existance of God or some greater purpose as an unanswerable rhetorical one, but I say otherwise.  You need to ask questions, and work to find answers, and be willing to accept some harsh truths about life, and yourself.   Many people don't like the answers that Christianity provides: that they cannot save themselves, and they are at heart, evil, and flawed, and the only salvation comes from giving up, and letting someone greater save them.

These song lyrics express my sentiments towards the subject:


Hey there Lord it's me
I wondered if you're free
Or not asleep
This just won't keep
It seems I just don't see

Why all the things we asked
Or prayed would come to pass
Have gone unheard
Like silent words
That slip into the past

For Lord they're not schemes
Can't you tell dreams
Why do you
Let them slip by
Never even tried

It isn't you don't hear
There's far too many tears
Or can't you feel
Are we unreal
To one who knows no peers

You say we must pay dues
But still I am confused
I need to walk
And with you talk
Instead of to statues

For Lord they're not schemes
Can't you tell dreams
Why do you
Let them slip by
Never even tried

You take all the fame
But who'll accept the blame
For all the hurts
Down here on earth
Unnecessary pain

For surely you must care
Or are you only air
Built in out minds
When we're in binds
And never really there

And can we be tired of you
Is that something that we're allowed to do
For even the blind change their view
And it's time we tried something new

And so I pled my case
I'll now pull my escape
Didn't mean to doubt
What it's about
Seems I forgot my place

But if you find the time
Please change the story line
Or give a call
Explain it all
I'll even leave the dime

Ok how about this.

In the bible I think there is a phrase, in the 10 commendments?

"Thou shalt not kill"

If this is a direct "order" from the god, do you think that people who have broken this, (killed other people) are forgiven this sin and have been given access to heaven?

Ok I would like to start off by saying I do believe in God I once was  a christian but due to some wrong doing within my church I quit going and do plan to go back.

As for your question The 10 commandments were the old law given to mosses by God and the law changed begining in the new testement like instead an eye for an eye type thing it turned into turn the other cheek.You ask if  a person murders will they be given access to heaven under the old law no but now through repenting believing confession of jesus as the son of God and baptism all sins will be forgave. The only sin that is not forgivable is blastphomy of the Holy spirit.

I do not condim anyone for not believing in God that is not my job. I respect everones right to their own beleif as long as they respect mine.

Well, you have to read the whole Bible.  According to the new testament, God will forgive us for every single sin, regardless of how great or devastating.   If we simply ask for forgiveness, we will be given it, it's that simple.  He knows we're imperfect.

It's also important to note what is meant by "Do not kill" - it means do not murder, ie, illegally kill someone. The other parts of the Bible not shown  :)  here clearly illuminate that killing in a just war, or self-defense, etc is not a violation of God's law.

i dont believe in god but i do believe there is something higher almost like a god ???

I would say that Buddhism is more my route. However I still believe in God as well. I believe in a caring compassionate God, not a God that punishes us for our sins. I believe we create our own suffering and our own pleasures in this life. I also believe in Karma 100%. I've seen it too often to not believe it.

Something, somebody had to create us however. There is something bigger than us for sure. I'm not sure what, and I don't have to know right now. All I can do is try to be selfless and honest with myself and others. Hopefully after that everything will fall into place.

I believe in aliens more so than in God.  The whole concept of an angry God obsessed with vengeance and tormenting poor errant souls in the Hell fire is so... yawn.  

I wonder if aliens believe in God - and do they create it in their own image?  

And do they kill each other over their religious beliefs?  Imagine an alien Spanish Inquistion, an alien Crusades, an alien jihad.  

There might a higher power out there, but it's an imperfect being like all of us. And who created it?  Another higher higher power?  And who created that one? Another higher higher higher power?  And so on.  Like those cool Russian dolls who live inside each other - what are they called again?


Let's be crazy together.  Strength in numbers, ya know.


The Man Who Fell to Earth.  ;)

I think you need to read your history book. Our country was founded on "freedom of religion". The constitution does not define religion either. And it certainly does not define our religion as "Christian".

You should also be more respectful towards other religions. The bombers who blew up the building in OK were both devote Christians. And there are screwball mormons in S. Utah and N. AZ who call themselves christians as well. There are many many flawed groups that claim to be followers of Christ. Funny how you don't use them as examples? But then you will take a complete slam on Islam assuming the entire culture is defunct because of bad examples within that religion.

Your statement is flawed and hypocritical. Don't assume that one religion is the true way and slam others. And understand your history better. Your statement is why people do not like organized religion. And helps create a divide between our culture and others such as Islam.

There are plenty of hardworking people that are Buddhist, athiest, agnostic, Jewish, Islamic etc etc. Christianity isn't the only foundation for hard work. Do you really think that hard work ethic is just from the bible only?

Are you an intern for Hannity or what?  ::)

John Adams wrote:

?The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.?

The posts in this thread have given me a better view of christian religion and the fact of god, thanks guys.

SLC, I do have some believe in karma but can't really say that I know what karma really means, is it basicly like, there is a balance that you live in, for example you steal a jacket worth of 50 dollars, don't get caught then sometime later you get a fine of 50 dollars for something you did, is it something like this?

Hey Headless Horseman, great to know I'm not the only crazy on these boards :beer:

I think that is on the right track. For example I've seen countless people who were selfish pricks. Just didn't care about anybody but themselves, and for them it was one shitty thing after another. Also we confuse "stuff" with happiness. You may see somebody that is a total jerk that is surrounded by material things and think "oh yea right..bad Karma ::)." but he may have thousands of dollars in credit debt. Or may have horrible personal relationships.

I grew up with a guy like this. Thinks the whole world owes him something. He won't pay child support because he hates his ex. So he can't really get a real job because it'll get taken out of his paycheck. So he lives in a shithole because of it. Has no credit really to buy anything. It's almost instant Karma. His selfishness leaves him living as a poor man, but he can't see it. If he decided to change and pay for his daugher, I'd bet all sorts of good things may happen. He would have a real job and be able to buy a home one day. Not to mention the personal aspect of it all. He blames his life on everybody else. "If it wasn' tfor that bitch, I'd be able to get a real job"....

But that guy is the creator of all his pain and suffering. I have never seen a person as selfish as that guy. He has bad things happen to him over and over. His life totally sucks. But to know the guy (and how selfish he is) your first thought would be, "Jeez, the guy deserves what he gets anyway".

I honestly believe that if he changed who he was that good things would come his way.

I've seen it the other way around too. I see people who work endlessly for others. Putting themselves first. And yes, life throws them tought things too. But they are more content and doors seem to open for those people more often. Things always seem to work themselves out.

That's how I live my life. I believe there is a God that created us, but allows us to create or own heaven or hell based on our actions, and more importantly intentions. I could do you a favor, but if my intention isn't true then it doesn't mean shit. If I help somebody I am not thinking "Oh now they owe me one." That is not honorable intention. To help another human being and expect nothing in return, that is honor and integrity.

This is the closest of what i believe in. I could not describe it myself, therefore, i am using something some of you may already know :


THE GNOSTIC SOCIETY LIBRARY

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Thunder, Perfect Mind

Translated by George W. MacRae


I was sent forth from the power,
and I have come to those who reflect upon me, and I have been found among those who seek after me. Look upon me, you who reflect upon me,
and you hearers, hear me. You who are waiting for me, take me to yourselves. And do not banish me from your sight.
And do not make your voice hate me, nor your hearing.
Do not be ignorant of me anywhere or any time. Be on your guard! Do not be ignorant of me.

For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
I am the members of my mother.
I am the barren one
and many are her sons. I am she whose wedding is great,
and I have not taken a husband. I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me. I am the mother of my father
and the sister of my husband and he is my offspring. I am the slave of him who prepared me.
I am the ruler of my offspring.
But he is the one who begot me before the time on a birthday. And he is my offspring in (due) time, and my power is from him. I am the staff of his power in his youth,
and he is the rod of my old age. And whatever he wills happens to me. I am the silence that is incomprehensible
and the idea whose remembrance is frequent. I am the voice whose sound is manifold
and the word whose appearance is multiple. I am the utterance of my name.

Why, you who hate me, do you love me,
and hate those who love me? You who deny me, confess me,
and you who confess me, deny me. You who tell the truth about me, lie about me,
and you who have lied about me, tell the truth about me. You who know me, be ignorant of me,
and those who have not known me, let them know me.

For I am knowledge and ignorance.
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.
I am the one who is disgraced and the great one.

Give heed to my poverty and my wealth.
Do not be arrogant to me when I am cast out upon the earth,
and you will find me in those that are to come. And do not look upon me on the dung-heap
nor go and leave me cast out, and you will find me in the kingdoms. And do not look upon me when I am cast out among those who
are disgraced and in the least places, nor laugh at me. And do not cast me out among those who are slain in violence.
But I, I am compassionate and I am cruel.

Be on your guard!
Do not hate my obedience
and do not love my self-control. In my weakness, do not forsake me,
and do not be afraid of my power. For why do you despise my fear
and curse my pride? But I am she who exists in all fears
and strength in trembling. I am she who is weak,
and I am well in a pleasant place. I am senseless and I am wise.

Why have you hated me in your counsels?
For I shall be silent among those who are silent,
and I shall appear and speak, Why then have you hated me, you Greeks?
Because I am a barbarian among the barbarians? For I am the wisdom of the Greeks
and the knowledge of the barbarians. I am the judgement of the Greeks and of the barbarians.
I am the one whose image is great in Egypt
and the one who has no image among the barbarians. I am the one who has been hated everywhere
and who has been loved everywhere. I am the one whom they call Life,
and you have called Death. I am the one whom they call Law,
and you have called Lawlessness. I am the one whom you have pursued,
and I am the one whom you have seized. I am the one whom you have scattered,
and you have gathered me together. I am the one before whom you have been ashamed,
and you have been shameless to me. I am she who does not keep festival,
and I am she whose festivals are many. I, I am godless,
and I am the one whose God is great. I am the one whom you have reflected upon,
and you have scorned me. I am unlearned,
and they learn from me. I am the one that you have despised,
and you reflect upon me. I am the one whom you have hidden from,
and you appear to me. But whenever you hide yourselves,
I myself will appear. For whenever you appear,
I myself will hide from you. Those who have [...] to it [...] senselessly [...].

Take me [... understanding] from grief.
and take me to yourselves from understanding and grief. And take me to yourselves from places that are ugly and in ruin,
and rob from those which are good even though in ugliness. Out of shame, take me to yourselves shamelessly;
and out of shamelessness and shame, upbraid my members in yourselves. And come forward to me, you who know me
and you who know my members, and establish the great ones among the small first creatures. Come forward to childhood,
and do not despise it because it is small and it is little. And do not turn away greatnesses in some parts from the smallnesses,
for the smallnesses are known from the greatnesses.

Why do you curse me and honor me?
You have wounded and you have had mercy.
Do not separate me from the first ones whom you have known.
And do not cast anyone out nor turn anyone away
[...] turn you away and [... know] him not. [...]. What is mine [...]. I know the first ones and those after them know me.

But I am the mind of [...] and the rest of [...].
I am the knowledge of my inquiry,
and the finding of those who seek after me, and the command of those who ask of me, and the power of the powers in my knowledge of the angels, who have been sent at my word, and of gods in their seasons by my counsel, and of spirits of every man who exists with me, and of women who dwell within me. I am the one who is honored, and who is praised,
and who is despised scornfully. I am peace,
and war has come because of me. And I am an alien and a citizen.
I am the substance and the one who has no substance.

Those who are without association with me are ignorant of me,
and those who are in my substance are the ones who know me. Those who are close to me have been ignorant of me,
and those who are far away from me are the ones who have known me. On the day when I am close to you, you are far away from me,
and on the day when I am far away from you, I am close to you.

[I am ...] within.
[I am ...] of the natures.
I am [...] of the creation of the spirits.
[...] request of the souls.
I am control and the uncontrollable.
I am the union and the dissolution.
I am the abiding and I am the dissolution.
I am the one below,
and they come up to me. I am the judgment and the acquittal.
I, I am sinless,
and the root of sin derives from me. I am lust in (outward) appearance,
and interior self-control exists within me. I am the hearing which is attainable to everyone
and the speech which cannot be grasped. I am a mute who does not speak,
and great is my multitude of words.

Hear me in gentleness, and learn of me in roughness.
I am she who cries out,
and I am cast forth upon the face of the earth. I prepare the bread and my mind within.
I am the knowledge of my name.
I am the one who cries out,
and I listen. I appear and [...] walk in [...] seal of my [...].
I am [...] the defense [...].
I am the one who is called Truth
and iniquity [...].

You honor me [...] and you whisper against me.
You who are vanquished, judge them (who vanquish you)
before they give judgment against you, because the judge and partiality exist in you. If you are condemned by this one, who will acquit you?
Or, if you are acquitted by him, who will be able to detain you? For what is inside of you is what is outside of you,
and the one who fashions you on the outside is the one who shaped the inside of you. And what you see outside of you, you see inside of you; it is visible and it is your garment.

Hear me, you hearers
and learn of my words, you who know me. I am the hearing that is attainable to everything;
I am the speech that cannot be grasped. I am the name of the sound
and the sound of the name. I am the sign of the letter
and the designation of the division. And I [...].
(3 lines missing)
[...] light [...].
[...] hearers [...] to you
[...] the great power.
And [...] will not move the name.
[...] to the one who created me.
And I will speak his name.

Look then at his words
and all the writings which have been completed. Give heed then, you hearers
and you also, the angels and those who have been sent, and you spirits who have arisen from the dead. For I am the one who alone exists,
and I have no one who will judge me.

For many are the pleasant forms which exist in numerous sins,
and incontinencies, and disgraceful passions, and fleeting pleasures, which (men) embrace until they become sober and go up to their resting place. And they will find me there,
and they will live, and they will not die again.

 

'Under God'
Michael Newdow is right. Atheists are outsiders in America.

BY SAMUEL P. HUNTINGTON
Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

The battle over the Pledge of Allegiance has stimulated vigorous controversy on an issue central to America's identity. Opponents of "under God" (which was added to the pledge in 1954) argue that the United States is a secular country, that the First Amendment prohibits rhetorical or material state support for religion, and that people should be able to pledge allegiance to their country without implicitly also affirming a belief in God. Supporters point out that the phrase is perfectly consonant with the views of the framers of the Constitution, that Lincoln had used these words in the Gettysburg Address, and that the Supreme Court--which on Monday sidestepped a challenge to the Pledge of Allegiance--has long held that no one could be compelled to say the pledge.

The atheist who brought the court challenge, Michael Newdow, asked this question: "Why should I be made to feel like an outsider?" Earlier, the Court of Appeals in San Francisco had agreed that the words "under God" sent "a message to unbelievers that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community."

Although the Supreme Court did not address the question directly, Mr. Newdow got it right: Atheists are "outsiders" in the American community. Americans are one of the most religious people in the world, particularly compared with the peoples of other highly industrialized democracies. But they nonetheless tolerate and respect the rights of atheists and nonbelievers. Unbelievers do not have to recite the pledge, or engage in any religiously tainted practice of which they disapprove. They also, however, do not have the right to impose their atheism on all those Americans whose beliefs now and historically have defined America as a religious nation.





Statistics say America is not only a religious nation but also a Christian one. Up to 85% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Brian Cronin, who litigated against a cross on public land in Boise, Idaho, complained, "For Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and other non-Christians in Boise, the cross only drives home the point that they are strangers in a strange land." Like Mr. Newdow and the Ninth Circuit judges, Mr. Cronin was on target. America is a predominantly Christian nation with a secular government. Non-Christians may legitimately see themselves as strangers because they or their ancestors moved to this "strange land" founded and peopled by Christians--even as Christians become strangers by moving to Israel, India, Thailand or Morocco.
Americans have always been extremely religious and overwhelmingly Christian. The 17th-century settlers founded their communities in America in large part for religious reasons. Eighteenth-century Americans saw their Revolution in religious and largely biblical terms. The Revolution reflected their "covenant with God" and was a war between "God's elect" and the British "Antichrist." Jefferson, Paine and other deists and nonbelievers felt it necessary to invoke religion to justify the Revolution. The Declaration of Independence appealed to "Nature's God," the "Creator," "the Supreme Judge of the World," and "divine Providence" for approval, legitimacy and protection.

The Constitution includes no such references. Yet its framers firmly believed that the republican government they were creating could last only if it was rooted in morality and religion. "A Republic can only be supported by pure religion or austere morals," John Adams said. Washington agreed: "Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." Fifty years after the Constitution was adopted, Tocqueville reported that all Americans held religion "to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions."

The words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution, and some people cite the absence of religious language in the Constitution and the provisions of the First Amendment as evidence that America is fundamentally secular. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the end of the 18th century, religious establishments existed throughout Europe and in several American states. Control of the church was a key element of state power, and the established church, in turn, provided legitimacy to the state. The framers of the Constitution prohibited an established national church in order to limit the power of government and to protect and strengthen religion. The purpose of "separation of church and state," as William McLoughlin has said, was not to establish freedom from religion but to establish freedom for religion. As a result, Americans have been unique among peoples in the diversity of sects, denominations and religious movements to which they have given birth, almost all embodying some form of Protestantism. When substantial numbers of Catholic immigrants arrived, it was eventually possible to accept Catholicism as one more denomination within the broad framework of Christianity. The proportion of the population who were "religious adherents," that is church members, increased fairly steadily through most of American history.





Today, overwhelming majorities of Americans affirm religious beliefs. When asked in 2003 simply whether they believed in God or not, 92% said yes. In a series of 2002-03 polls, 57% to 65% of Americans said religion was very important in their lives, 23% to 27% said fairly important, and 12% to 18% said not very important. Large proportions of Americans also appear to be active in the practice of their religion. In 2002 and 2003, an average of 65% claimed membership in a church or synagogue. About 40% said they had attended church or synagogue in the previous seven days, and roughly 33% said they went to church at least once a week. In the same period, about 60% of Americans said they prayed one or more times a day, more than 20% once or more a week, about 10% less than once a week, and 10% never. Given human nature, these claims of religious practice may be overstated, but the extent to which Americans believe the right response is to affirm their religiosity is itself evidence for the centrality of religious norms in American society.
Only about 10% of Americans, however, espouse atheism, and most Americans do not approve of it. Although the willingness of Americans to vote for a presidential candidate from a minority group has increased dramatically--over 90% of those polled in 1999 said they would vote for a black, Jewish or female presidential candidate, while 59% were willing to vote for a homosexual--only 49% were willing to vote for an atheist. Americans seem to agree with the Founding Fathers that their republican government requires a religious base, and hence find it difficult to accept the explicit rejection of God.

These high levels of religiosity would be less significant if they were the norm for other countries. Americans differ dramatically, however, in their religiosity from the people of other economically developed countries. This religiosity is conclusively revealed in cross-national surveys. In general, the level of religious commitment of countries varies inversely with their level of economic development: People in poor countries are highly religious; those in rich countries are not. America is the glaring exception. One analysis found that if America were like most other countries at her level of economic development, only 5% of Americans would think religion very important, but in fact 51% do.

An International Social Survey Program questionnaire in 1991 asked people in 17 countries seven questions concerning their belief in God, life after death, heaven and other religious concepts. Reporting the results, George Bishop ranked the countries according to the percentage of their population that affirmed these religious beliefs. The U.S. was far ahead in its overall level of religiosity, ranking first on four questions, second on one, and third on two, for an average ranking of 1.7. According to this poll, Americans are more deeply religious than even the people of countries like Ireland and Poland, where religion has been the core of national identity differentiating them from their traditional British, German and Russian antagonists.

Along with their general religiosity, the Christianity of Americans has impressed foreign observers and been affirmed by Americans. "We are a Christian people," the Supreme Court declared in 1811. In the midst of the Civil War, Lincoln also described Americans as "a Christian people." In 1892 the Supreme Court again declared, "This is a Christian nation." In 1917 Congress passed legislation declaring a day of prayer in support of the war effort and invoking America's status as a Christian nation. In 1931 the Supreme Court reaffirmed its earlier view: "We are a Christian people, according to one another the equal right of religious freedom, and acknowledging with reverence the duty of obedience to the will of God."

While the balance between Protestants and Catholics shifted over the years, the proportion of Americans identifying themselves as Christian has remained relatively constant. In three surveys between 1989 and 1996, 84% to 88% of Americans said they were Christians. The proportion of Christians in America rivals or exceeds the proportion of Jews in Israel, of Muslims in Egypt, of Hindus in India, and of Orthodox believers in Russia.

America's Christian identity has, nonetheless, been questioned on two grounds. It is argued, first, that America is losing that identity because non-Christian religions are expanding in numbers, and Americans are thus becoming a multireligious and not simply a multidenominational people; second, that Americans are losing their religious identity and are becoming secular, atheistic, materialistic and indifferent to their religious heritage. Neither of these propositions comes close to the truth.





The argument that America is losing its Christian identity due to the spread of non-Christian religions was advanced by several scholars in the 1980s and '90s. They pointed to the growing numbers of Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists in American society. Hindus increased from 70,000 in 1977 to 800,000 in 1997. Muslims amounted to at least 3.5 million in 1997, while Buddhists numbered somewhere between 750,000 and two million. From these developments, the proponents of de-Christianization argue, in the words of Prof. Diana Eck, that "religious diversity" has "shattered the paradigm of America" as an overwhelmingly Christian country with a small Jewish minority.
The increases in the membership of some non-Christian religions have not, to put it mildly, had any significant effect on America's Christian identity. As a result of assimilation, low birth rates, and intermarriage, the proportion of Jews dropped from 4% in the 1920s to 3% in the '50s to slightly over 2% in 1997. If the absolute numbers claimed by their spokesmen are correct, by 1997 about 1.5% of Americans were Muslim, while Hindus and Buddhists were each less than 1%. The numbers of non-Christian, non-Jewish believers undoubtedly will continue to grow, but for years to come they will remain extremely small. Some increases in the membership of non-Christian religions come from conversions, but the largest share is from immigration and high birthrates. The immigrants of these religions, however, are far outnumbered by immigrants from Latin America, almost all of whom are Catholic and also have high birthrates. Latin American immigrants are also converting to evangelical Protestantism. In addition, Christians in Asia and the Middle East have been more likely than non-Christians to migrate to America. As of 1990, a majority of Asian-Americans were Christian rather than Buddhist or Hindu, and about two-thirds of Arab-Americans have been Christian rather than Muslim, although Arab Muslim immigrants have become much more numerous. While a precise judgment is impossible, at the start of the 21st century the U.S. was probably becoming more rather than less Christian in its religious composition.

Americans tend to have a certain catholicity toward religion: All deserve respect. Given this general tolerance of religious diversity, non-Christian faiths have little alternative but to recognize and accept America as a Christian society. "Americans have always thought of themselves as a Christian nation," argues Jewish neoconservative Irving Kristol, "equally tolerant of all religions so long as they were congruent with traditional Judeo-Christian morality. But equal toleration . . . never meant perfect equality of status in fact." Christianity is not legally established, "but it is established informally, nevertheless."





But if increases in non-Christian membership haven't diluted Christianity in America, hasn't it been supplanted over time by a culture that is pervasively irreligious, if not antireligious? These terms describe segments of American intellectual, academic and media elites, but not the bulk of the American people. American religiosity could be high by absolute measures and high relative to that of comparable societies, yet the secularization thesis would still be valid if the commitment of Americans to religion declined over time. Little or no evidence exists of such a decline. The one significant shift that does appear to have occurred is a drop in the 1960s and '70s in the religious commitment of Catholics. This shift, however, brought Catholic attitudes on religion more into congruence with those of Protestants.
Over the course of American history, fluctuations did occur in levels of American religious commitment and religious involvement. There has not, however, been an overall downward trend in American religiosity. At the start of the 21st century, Americans are no less committed, and are quite possibly more committed, to their religious beliefs and their Christian identity than at any time in their history.

Wow... :o
"Public education"?? For who? Not all over the country...public education is so poor in the South it's really worrying. "Compassion"? For the rich? Yeah, the poor can die. "Don't have enough money to pay your medicine or hospital bills? Sorry buddy, you're gonna have to die!" Free (or almost free) healthcare for all would be a first step. I'm sorry from where I live, I don't see an "incredible success".

Islam was actually a progressive religion a couple of thousand years ago...unfortunately lots of bad things happened in the last century, and because 19 fundamentalist muslims crashed in the WTC in 2001, Islam is now seen as a bad/evil religion. It's just a culture/religion we don't understand.

I don't believe in God; I was raised in an atheist family, I maybe went 3 times in my life to church (besides visiting like Notre Dame, Sacre Coeur and stuff) -- not because my parents didn't want me to, just because I think that's very boring and I don't relate to anything they're saying. I hate when I got to church after someone has passed away and the preacher praise God the Almighty. Yeah right, if he's so good, why did he take my friend/ family member? Sorry I don't believe in that God. I believe in other things, I just don't believe in God, the way it's generally described/believed.


Edit: I re-read the first part of my post and it might seem aggressive. It's not, I'm just in "shock & awe" ( :hihi: )when I read things like that, which are so far from the truth in the region of the country I live in (and probably in other parts too).

A few weeks ago, two young guys were shot in the small city (20k) I live in. When interviewed by the paper, people said it's because young people don't go to church anymore, they play video games and watch violent movies. I don't go to church, I love video games, Scarface, Gladiator, Heat, etc. but I don't go on the streets killing people. Come on.

Will, you're French right?  I thought that most French people are strongly Roman Catholic - is that not true anymore?

As for America being a great proof of Christianity...sure..., but let's not forget that the Founding Fathers advocated separation of Church and State.  They didnt want to get too carried away with religious dogma.

All religions have had their share of breeding 'backwardsness'.  Islam is being plagued by fanatics and madmen which is sad.   :-\  

Let's all take a moment to remember poor Galileo and how he was made to recant the Copernican theory of the earth going round the sun because of the Church...

?E pur si muove?   [nevertheless it (the Earth) does move].  -- Galileo

Especially in the region I come from (Brittany)... :hihi: But I think it's generally still true in France, lots of people don't go to church though.
I don't know, my parents both had a religious education and both didn't like it so they chose to let the children choose if we wanted to go to church or not. I chose not to! ;D

Im sorry but terrorism and Islam is not limited to the 19 that crashed into the WTC.

Islamic extremism exists in huge numbers.  Sure not all of Muslims are extreme, but but if there are over a billion muslims in the world and .001 of 1 billion are extremists then that is still 1 million islamic extremists.  And yes these people are evil.  It may be a culture that we dont understand, but I personally dont want to understand the Islamic extremists.  They want to take over the world, strap bombs to kids, give women no rights, and eradicate christians and Jews, and take over all countries that have Islamic ties.  I understand that they are evil, and that is enough for me.  I know, evil is relative right?  Fuck moral relativism, Im a moral absolutist when it comes to certain things such as life and freedom.

The church I attended (Church of Christ)tought me that was incorrect. I believe in the book of John it says that God does not hear the prayers of sinners by this it means people that have not been baptised,so therefore if you are not baptised how can God hear your plea for forgivness?This is just based on what I have been tought and believe in.

People believe in God because they need a crutch to lean on.  And I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, because we all "need somebody to lean on" as the song goes.  Agnostics (such as myself) and atheists need crutches too, some of us use music (like I do), some of us have family and friends.  You get the point, we all need something to rely upon when we are emotionally brittle.

Many people need to believe in God to make it through the day, and many people need to believe they are going to a place called Heaven in order to sleep at night.  Though I don't believe in God, their beliefs are fine with me.  I have no problem with anyone else's beliefs as long as they do not attempt to impose those beliefs on me in any way-- even if they are trying to do so for my "own good".

Well that may be true for some, but thats not why I believe in God, so I can sleep at night.  

I didn't mean that in a literal sense, perhaps I should've been more specific and added a bit to it.  I meant that people believe in God because it gives them a sense of fulfillment.  People need something to fill the void.  "God" does it for them.  And as I said, that's fine with me.

And when I say "people", I'm referring to adults really, not children, because children have the natural tendency to believe whatever they're told.  But as you get older, anything you believe in is based on a "need" in one form or another.


And that's absolutely true.  Our national motto "One nation under God" does not in any way state "One nation under Jesus".  Christians like to believe our government was founded on Christian ideology.  See, a Christian will point to laws against murder, rape, stealing, etc, and say that based on those, our government is based on Christian principles.

The reality is, there are actually very few of our laws which coincide with Christian principles.  But ignoring that fact for a moment, let me pose these questions.....

If our laws were founded on the principles of Christianity...

Why is taking the lord's name in vain not a crime?
Why is it not a crime to work on the Sabbath day?  (the bible states that he who does this shall be killed!)
Why is it not a crime to engage in premarital sex?
Why is it not a crime to commit adultery?
Why is divorce legal?
Why is it not a crime to marry someone who has been divorced?

(For the record, the bible clearly states that marrying someone who has been divorced is committing adultery, and marrying someone after you've been divorced yourself is also committing adultery.)

Why is it not a crime to have another god before "Him"?
Why is it not a crime to bear false idols?
Why is it not a crime to not respect your mother and father?
Why it it not a crime to blaspheme?
Why is it not a crime to covet thy neighbor's wife, his house, or his ass?

And most importantly...

Does anyone honestly believe that murder would not be a crime were it not for Christianity?  Do you think that I wouldn't know better than to kill someone if Christianity were not there to teach me that?

I say bollocks, the human race is indeed intuitive enough to know why it isn't good to kill, rape, and steal.  They are basic principles of humanity, and they feasibly existed long before the bible was written.  Just because some of our laws happen to coincide with Christianity does not make America a nation founded upon Christian principles.  If it were, none of us would enjoy the freedom we do.  And I don't even need to explain that; just look at any nation in the world governed by a religion, you have suicide bombings, excessive religious fanaticism, extreme oppression, and overall mass chaos.  And you're fooling yourself if you believe the U.S. would be any different if it were governed by Christianity.  Saying that America is in even remotely good shape because of Christianity is ludicrous, because the exact opposite is true.  We're a mostly civil nation because we weren't founded on the principles of any organized religion, rather on the humanist foundation of a democracy.  Christianity gets a good name because of our democracy, not vice versa.  It's the adament separation of church and state which set us apart from all third world countries ravaged by religion.

 Yes.  If fundamentalist Christians had their way they would impose their moral laws on the people.  Thus taking away from a true democracy.

Look at cultures run by religion. Hell, even the Mormon culture is oppresive towards their women. The non Mormons in my state HATE the Mormons because they actually run the state and pass laws that are entirely based on their religious beliefs. That is not democracy. That is religion running the state. They may have one token non-Mormon on certain boards to say it's fair. But anybody with a brain understands what goes on here.

****


Let me point something out here.  The USA is a young country.  We have countless people who honestly believe that it was founded on Christianity.  I hear people on TV all the time that say this.  If people can come to believe this as the truth in such a short time (as a country forgetting what we were founded on), how can we not believe that the meaning of the bible has been twisted around as well?  How long has it been subject to man's views and agendas?  How much has the message of Jesus Christ been twisted around over 2k years?  That is why I don't care for organized religion.

Loretian,

You know, I disagree with every single thing you stated in your post.  I could provide evidence that refutes every single "fact" you presented in your post.  But since you're only stating what you believe, and obviously there's nothing that will change your beliefs, I was going to leave it alone.  That is, until you tacked on this statement.....


You advise others to ask questions, but it seems you're not asking any questions yourself.  Seems you have all the answers already, you've made up your mind as to what's "true" since you obviously consider the entity known as Christianity to be the "truth".  What harsh truths about life do you accept?  Are you asking any questions yourself?  If so, what questions?  Do you ask yourself if what you believe in could be either partially or entirely untrue?  If you're not asking that, you're not really asking questions.  And your sentiments certainly imply that you're definitely not asking that question.

And you insinuate that Christianity holds all the answers, yet you still state the others need to ask questions.  What for?  You've given them the answers by advocating Christianity, so do you really believe that they need to go on asking?



You're right, I don't like those answers.  Not because I am in "denial", but because I find the logic in them to be flawed and oversimplified.  Believing in those answers is the easy way to explain things.  Human nature and behavior bears much more complicity than that.  I don't even need to explain that, just look around.  Observe, compare, and contrast the nature and behavior of people you know.  That of people you don't know.  That of people you see on TV.  That of people you see on the news.  People you consider good people.  People you consider bad people.  Yes, those of your ilk would like to believe that the one simple statement "We're all evil, only God can save us." can explain all those different types of individuals, their natures and their behaviors, but to the rational mind, it can't.

Actually, the "freedom of religion" thing is also straight out of the Bible.  You can't force anyone to be a Christian, they have to choose for themselves.  I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at - I just meant the basic ideals of the country, not that the entire country is Christian or anything.


There is fucked up people from every religion and organization, but I specifically believe that many of the ideals and rules Islam has cause a backwards type of civilization.  Maybe I should have been more clear, but I'm not just "slamming" other religions, and I realize there has been plenty of fucked up things Christians have done.

My point is basically:  If you follow the Christian to a T, you breed success.  If you follow Islamic ideals to a T, you breed failure - and again, I'm talking in a societal sense, not necessarily for an individual person, and in the economic/technological sense, not really religious or life-after-death sense.


I wasn't clear enough, and you're right, I should be more careful.  However, I don't believe all religions are equal, and I really think many things taught in the Quran are damaging to a society and it's growth.  Should I just pretend otherwise?


No, of course not.  Take the Quran, and develop a society from the rules and laws it teaches, and it won't include all those great things I listed about America, including your favorite, freedom of religion.

The American founders clearly documented their faith (or at least faith in the ideals, like Jefferson) and explained the theories behind their ideas.

If you're suggesting I read up on my history, then I suggest maybe you need to.  Not to be insulting, but this is pretty basic stuff about the foundation of America.


I don't know too much about John Adams, but I'd like to see the context of that quote.  I mean, it's pretty clear, but I mean... if that's all he meant to say, then he was dead wrong.    I mean, it's been recorded all over the place that that's exactly the opposite of the truth, so... I don't even know what to make of that.

Yeah, really, we have free education in the entire country.  I don't know too much specifically about the state of the south and public education, but I've always heard and understood that public education problems were more in the ghetto, not the south.   I have relatives that live in the south and I've never heard any complaints about the public education there.


Well, I know your viewpoints on this kind of stuff, so I don't think I'm gonna convince you of anything, but our intense competive economic nature has raised the general quality of health care.  Because people earn money from designing better health care, the technology evolves faster.  On hand one, you can look at any one instance, and say, "poor people don't get as good of health care", and it's true, but if you look at the whole evolution of health care, poor people are actually getting better health care than they would have if it was free, because the health care wouldn't have evolved or improved as fast.

There are some people in the industry that do it just to be compassionate and not motivated by money, but most of them are not the ones designing the technology, or if they are, they're still driven by the financial rewards.


I agree that most people don't understand Islam, but it's not an open religion.  Growing up, we had many international students living in our house, and I learned a lot.  I'm not saying there aren't good things or decent ideals in Islam; my best friend in high school was Islamic; but overall, the philosophy it teaches is greatly flawed.   I think it's folly to just say "all religions are equal", just to be nice or "fair" or something.  Just like all ideas, some are good, some are bad.


No offense to you or any Mississippians, but my (highly uneducated) knowledge of the state is that it's one of the worst economically, I don't think most of the South is like that.

I'm always asking questions.  I realize that the fact that I'm so confident in my beliefs might seem otherwise, but it's because of my asking questions, and often, uncertainties in life that I've become so confident.  There is no doubt in my mind.  I'm not perfect, but I try to approach new things with an open mind, and I try to only speak definitively on things I know about, or have witnessed firsthand, and feel I have adequate experience to really say.

I haven't brought up Judiasm, because I do know some basics about it and know some facts that make me outright reject it, but unlike Islam, I haven't met many Jewish people or really know that much.


Yes, of course.  I don't hold any answers, I could be totally wrong.  What I suggest to people is that if they aren't sure, or haven't made up their mind, then keep looking, and don't reject Christianity on some the false premises that are out there (Christians just want to impose their beliefs on others, etc).  Investigate, decide for yourself.  Of course a lot of people are still going to reject it.

Specifically, I suggest the idea of investigating religion from a intellectual standpoint, reviewing the histories, as well as the implications of the philosophies.  Those philosophies should be read first hand from the originating source, not secondhand from some flunkie who hates the concept to begin with, or from some overzealous person that would twist the concepts it contains to their own means.


They are oversimplified, and purposely so - I still think they're true, but I find that a lot of people misunderstand many of the basic concepts of Christianity, and my messages are already long enough, if I tried to break down everything, I don't think the message board would accept my posts.   :)


No, that simple statement does not explain the actions of any one single person, or the history of the earth.  But, it does explain the basic idea behind Christianity, which is all I was trying to do, because I find that many people don't know it, or seem to forget it often.

If you're not already sick of reading my posts on this kind of stuff, or are just wondering, I'd be happy to share how I believe the above "oversimplified" statement relates to the complexity of real life.

If you're suggesting I read up on my history, then I suggest maybe you need to.  Not to be insulting, but this is pretty basic stuff about the foundation of America.

You should read what I wrote. I wrote in reference to this being a Christian nation. Not anything else. You are either not reading, or trying to twist it around.

My point is basically:  If you follow the Christian to a T, you breed success.  If you follow Islamic ideals to a T, you breed failure - and again, I'm talking in a societal sense, not necessarily for an individual person, and in the economic/technological sense, not really religious or life-after-death sense.

That is great. But people don't follow it to a T. And that has little to do with the topic. You painted some broad strokes and I was reeling you in a bit. But then you turn around and make it a different arguement.

I don't know too much about John Adams, but I'd like to see the context of that quote.  I mean, it's pretty clear, but I mean... if that's all he meant to say, then he was dead wrong.    I mean, it's been recorded all over the place that that's exactly the opposite of the truth, so... I don't even know what to make of that.

OK, so let me get this right. You are saying that what one of your first presidents ever said was dead wrong?  The early presidents were generally Deists or Unitarians, who rejected the testaments.

Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." --


James Madison
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

(And my favorite........)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Yes, but a God that created life and said go. Not a God that's up above worrying about whether or not someone's good or bad.  

ok im not sticking around in this thread


GOD exists

i feel GOD in my everyday life

i know everything happens for a reason

i dont know or could describe how i know

but its something i feel inside

i know he is real


now some people in myopinion go way overboard with it

like athletes

"GOD allowed me to win tonight" he helped me score that touchdown

thats is crap,

i hate when athletes give GOD human characteristics like he is up in heaven rooting for  a particular team

also people overdo the miracle thing

my 10 year old boy was cured of cancer GOD healed my child

i dont believe in those types of miracles

cause what about the thousands of kids that die from cancer, did GOD not love them?

so i think we are in more control of things and GOD just sort of watches and intervenes here and there but ultimately our life and our decisions are based upon us

some things though have made me believe in GOD and destiny

i may discuss some of the stuff later

How do you define democracy?  Democracy is the will of the people.  Usually majority rule.  Therefore, if they can pass the law by being in the majority how it that non-democratic?

50 percent of people who act like they dont believe in GOD i dont take seriously or all together believe

i think some people do it to try and look cool or like an outlaw

some of u people on this board better hope that u are right, cause if there is a GOD have mercy on your souls

i dont know how anyone can say there isnt a GOD

maybe its fear instilled in me since i was a child but i would be scared to death to blashpheme like some of u have on here


but im not debating a huge holy war cause i cant explain GOD's presence i feel inside, all i know is he is has helped me thru the dark times and he has blessed me with so much and so many talents that i have the highest praise for GOD and Jesus Christ


even if u dont believe in Jesus u can still learn from him because of the great man he was

when a man is being crucified, if he can forgive those doing that to him, then i can forgive some girl or some friend for hurting me

i dont want anyone quoting my beliefs and trying to like counterpoint and tell me im stupid or try to make me see otherwise, i believe and nothing could ever change my mind or make me beileve otherwise

Very good point.  

I think Loretian is right.  Our country was found on religious ideals whether you like it or not.  In fact the declaration of independenc itself is based on the idea that we have certain natural rights given by GOD that cant be taken away by any government.  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.  Among these rights are the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of hapiness."  Is there anything more stating what our nation was founded upon than the declaration of independence?  The idea of "separation of church and state" is nothing more than a quote from a letter that Jefferson wrote from France.  Anyway, how can one even quote Jefferson to tell us what the Constitution means?  He wasnt present at the constitutional convention, in fact he was over in France.  
Just as you can can quote few of the athiests, I can quote tons at that time who believed otherwise.  But besides the point, one of the things that the nation was doing was trying to encompass religious tolerance.  If you actually look at the history most states had ESTABLISHED RELIGIONS at the time of ratification.  It was seen as more of something up to the states.  But that doesnt mean that is was one of the primary things that influenced the drafters and ratifiers.  
In fact there are tons of references to GOD everywhere in our government from ceremmonies to even documents such as the declaration of independence.  If such things were not at the forefront of their thinking or unconstitutional then they wouldnt have been used by the first congresses etc.

If these are not Christian concepts, but general concepts, then why are they challenged under establishment of religion?


Free speech
Ill bet if you look through history you can find laws in most states that are similar to all of these.  However, many of them are challenged today for being unconstitutional that is one reason why they no longer exist, furthermore much of this stuff is more socially accepted now.

Ask the moral relativists why murder is wrong?
Ask many of the Muslims in the middle east, they dont follow your basic principles.
Your right, but the fact that these people were influenced by religion when passing these laws does.  IN fact these are laws that were around from Common Law which is basically derived from Christian ideals.
Most of these countries just happen to be islamic also.  Interesting.
 
Well you have to realize that the people that created this country were strongly religious and Christian.  Its an adament of capitalism, democracy and limited government.  In fact you will see that most religion in schools and government etc wasnt challenged in the Supreme Court till the 20th century.

Recently someone very, very close to me died - my dog.  He had had cancer, and I prayed to God to help him get better, but obviously it didn't work.  Does prayer ever really work?  I know that whenever I go to church, they always pray for world peace and for leaders to make wise decisions.  Ha ha, good one.  I think I'm starting to believe that prayer doesn't really work, that God is unconcerned with human affairs.

I believe in God.  I suppose that originates in that it is the way I was brought up.  My family is Anglican Christian, and we go to church maybe once or twice a month.  That said, my beliefs are more varied than that, and sometimes I wonder if I'm even Christian at all, strictly speaking.  Let's see...I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus was the Messiah and God's son.  So I suppose that that makes me a Christian, as it is the central point of my religious beliefs.  But there's a lot of things I think that doesn't agree necessarily with Christian dogma.  Liberal Christian, I suppose you might call me.  I'm pro-choice, support gay marriage, and of course I believe evolution.  But here's the clincher.  I don't think, like a lot of religious people, that theirs is the only right religion.  Personally, I think all God wants is for you to believe in Him/Her/It, and doesn't care whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.

I don't believe that all atheists are doomed to hell.  See, the thing is, whether you're religious or not really has very little bearing on whether or not you're a good person.  I know lots of atheists who are really good people, very caring.  And then you have the Taliban, who are complete bastards, but very religious.  Basically, the problem with religion lies in interpretation.  So many atrocities have been justified in the name of religion.  I don't think that a just God would send 9/11 terrorists to heaven and the nice atheist lady from down the street to hell, just for that reason.  I think that if you live a good life and live by the principles of the Ten Commandments, even unconsciously or if you're an atheist, you should go to heaven.

Lately I've been reading about God and talking about it in my Philosophy class, and I've heard some arguments for the existence of God.  To me, the most compelling is this.  Everything has a cause and effect relationship. For everything that happens, there is a cause, and for each of those causes there is a cause, stretching all the way back to the beginning of time.  But what about the first cause, at the beginning of time?  Like, what caused the Big Bang?  What caused the first spark of life on Earth?  To me, the only answer is God.  At the very least, God is the Original Cause, of life and the universe.  I have no idea about anything else, but I am firm in my belief of God as Creator.

Something that bothers me is the current perception of religious people, and especially Christians, in modern society.  When I say, "I'm Christian", you think: he's always talking about Jesus, he's conservative and right-wing, he likes Christian rock.  Gimme a break.  I don't like it how we have this narrow perception of Christians.  Before, most people were Christian and you didn't think too much about it, it was just a thing.  Nowadays, when there's a lot of people who aren't religious, when they think of "Christians" they think of the Moral Majority.  Maybe it's just me, but I'm just a normal guy who happens to be Christian, I don't go around knocking on people's doors.  I go to church, but I wear Iron Maiden t-shirts.  You know, just do my own thing.  I think a lot of Christians are the same way, but they get overshadowed by the God Squad clique.

Democracy that this country is founded on. That is how I define democracy. The LDS culture here goes against everything this country was founded on. Yes, obviously it is the majority, but they take their beliefs and incorporate them in the law here. So that is in direct violation of church and state.

If the department of alcohol and beverage control has 4 out of 5 memebers who are LDS, how is that democratic?

sometimes matt u dont get any answers cause u ask the wrong questions

death is inevitable for every living thing, u cannot pray not to die, cause we all die in the end

for instance u cant pray for a new car and wake up the next day and a new car be sitting in your driveway

sometimes what u may think u need really isnt

things happen when they are suppose to happen

i use to be cynical and not believe in fate and destiny but a bunch of shit happened to me that made me believe otherwise

i dont believe GOD is pulling on the strings, i think he created the universe and created life and everything  buti think ultimately alot of stuff is up to us to figure out on our own


GOD constantly tests us, u have to go thru tribulations and hard times to find the light at the end of the tunnel

no matter how horrible my life has been ive never cursed GOD or blamed GOD and going thru all ive went thru has really shaped me and made me so strong and i have an inner strength that no body can touch or inflitrate

before i went thru all i went thru i didnt have that

thats why people who do drugs and drink and what have u to get over pain are robbing themselves

there is so much clarity and beauty in pain, so much u can learn about yourself and so much growing u do during that pain and people ignore that by medicated themselves where as they could be on the road to inner peace and clarity but have no faith to get thru those hard times

i never lose my faith, my heart never dies and im alive and typing on this computer rightnow because of my faith


what ive been thru most people wouldve committed suicide, oded be in a psychiatric hospital or prison

but faith has saw me thru and now i feel GOD everywhere!

So you admit that your belief may only be there because it was forced? I ain't knocking your belief, but how can you say there's a good god alive when you see the pain in the world. He must be a sadistic bastard (well if you've read the bible you'll already know he's a bit of a psycotic killer).

Like i said on the board before. I believe there is a higher power, I have no proof, but it's what I believe. If the bible god existed, I believe he's now dead, because there'd be no way he could stand back and let the shit that happens today, er, happen.

Like George Carlin says, where's God when they lose?  What, did the good Lord come down and knock the ball away from you at the last second?  Jesus forced the fumble on the two yard line?

thats a good one duffman!

i meant the fear of GOD was instilled in me


i believe in GOD regardless


yes the world is a horrible place but its not like we are pawns in GODs chess game

the Devil has alot to do with the evils of the world as well

the Devil tempts us and promotes evil within us

like i said

i think GOD created the universe, gave us life but its up to us to figure out how to live and what to do with that life and to make the best possible decisions for our lives to be happy and content

Nope...never have. Way to far fetched to be real.

If god or jesus had the power to stop shit that goes on in the world then i'd like to see him do it.

I believe in God for lots of reasons, I?ve had things happen in my life that can?t be just due to pure fate,also, I think that life?s too complicated to go at it alone without the guidance of a higher power. Ther are things in life that are just too perfect or nearly perfect to have been created on their own without any intentions to create them(take the human body for example). Has any of you seen the Pope? man, what you feel when you see him is something undescribable, can?t find the words to explain. those are my reasons.

Matt88, if someone doesn?t do something for you, don?t you think it means that he/she just doesn?t want to for some reason?

I love and believe in God.  Why? Because, he's my best friend.

I went to church for 14 years, from the time I was an infant until I was 14. My family and I stopped going for personal reasons. From going to church, I learned all the facts about Jesus, I knew the bible songs, and I memorized the prayer to recite, but I never felt close to God. I always thought that only the 'higher ups' could communicate with God on a one to one level.   But, as I got older life became more overwhelming and I needed emotional support and spiritual guidance. So, I started to pray and things began to change in me.  Great things have happened that I can't really explain. It's just something that everyone has to feel in order to understand.

A lot of people doubt God's existence, because of all the bad things that happen in the world, but like SLC said, we create our own misery and suffering. We're supposed to take care of one another, not hurt each other. It's like when you have children, you can't always be there with them wherever they are, you just have to hope that they make good decisions and treat others with respect. Because, God gave us all free will, so that we could learn to make our own decisions. That's the only way we can learn anything.

"I believe God loves the world through us. We are real carriers of His love. Especially in times like these when people are trying to make God 'was', it is you and I, by our love, by the purity of our lives, by our compassion, who prove to the world that God 'is'." - Mother Teresa

well put

i cant understand anyones logic in not believing, but everyone has their rights, so im not gonna tell someone they are wrong for believing a certain way

i just hope they see the light b4 its to late

I can't imagine God creating us and giving us the ability to question his/her existence. Then be upset with us because we choose not to believe in a higher power. But that is just my way of thinking anyway.

My father is not a religious man by any means. But he is the most gentle, kind caring man I have ever met. I can't imagine him going to 'hell' because he didn't believe in God.

i think its based on our hearts and how we live our lives

thats my opinion

i dont necessarily believe u have to go to church etc

i think if u are good at heart and are a genuine person and try as hard as u can to be a good person and good to others  u will go to heaven

its like a preacher told me once though

if im driving down the road and a cop has a roadblock and says "son, the road is washed up ahead u need to turn and go another way"

and i ignore him and drive over a cliff and die, its my fault i was warned

same with heaven, we have been taught and told that if u dont believe in god and dont take jesus as your savior u go to hell
so i dont know

life is like a man giving a woman a diamond ring, and she throwing the ring away and keeping the box

thats what humans do, the soul is the diamond but we throw it away and worry bout our bodies or the box

in 342 BEFORE Jesus Christ , Epicure said a very intersting thing on god and evil on earth:

************************************************
god
1 - or WANTS to remove evil but CAN'T do it,
2 - or DOESN'T WANT to remove evil  and CAN'T do it (anyway...)
3 - or DOESN'T WANT to remove evil , nor CAN'T do it
4 - or WANTS to remove evil and CAN.

(these are the 4 only possibilities)
now with the global definition of god : almighty and GOOD.

1 >> so he is not almighty : doesnt work
2 >> so he is evil : doesnt work
3 >> evil and not almighty  : yeah right :)
4 >> yeah ! thats the one we want .... oh wait, so why evil ?

**********************************************************

to me , people's god is like a father that is watching his daughter getting raped, and he sees it, he could easily save her, but stay where he is.

and also, you never can argue with people with faith cause they will always
- praise god for what's good
- blame humanity for whats bad
i say that is TOOO easy.
come on, ok you believe in god, great for you, but you don't have to blindly agree with everything that is written on a god damn (ooops) book.

as long as you believe in (a) god personnaly, if it's your choice, personnal, thats fine. i think that actually everybody believes in something deeply, some call it God, Love, hate, pride, soccer ....

but when the community feeling and the word religion comes in the game, well that dont work anymore.

 :o :o :o :o :o

Ok,see i believe in god but im not religious.

So true.  God always gets credit for everything good.  Not us.  None of us are responsible for any good that we do.  But when it comes to evil, it's the other way around.  God suddenly becomes a hapless bystander when it comes to the evil done by mankind.

If you're going to believe in God as the "creator" of everything, you'd better believe that means EVERYTHING.  Including evil.  Keep in mind Lucifier didn't create himself.  He was created by God.  And any evil inclinations Lucifer had and continues to have, had to have been instilled by God.  Because Lucifer wouldn't have just come up with the idea on his own to rebel against God, those inclinations had to have been put there by somebody.  Perhaps the creator, hmmmm?

My theory is that the Christian God created Lucifer to portray himself in the light of goodness.  Nobody would know how wonderful God is without another deity which is evil.  It's that "balance" thing I've mentioned on other threads; you have to have clearly defined evil in order to have good, otherwise, the two would be indistinguishable.

So in other words, creating Lucifer was God's way of saying, "Hey everybody look at me and how wonderful I am compared to that guy!"  If you read the bible, it's obvious the Christian God has a knack for stroking his own ego, so it's unsurprising really.  I mean hell, the bible makes it a point to pervasively emphasize how horrible and evil human beings are, and how wonderful God is, so it's obvious God has a problem with his own self-esteem.  Reminds me of that schoolyard bully theory, "build yourself up by putting others down".  The Christian God definitely seems to have that complex about himself.

I do belive in God.
And for people who say prayers doesn?t  work I have to say this:
God ain?t no magician, he is not gonna change every bad thing with a magic wand.God acts wisely.And also think that  if everything in your life (from th minute you were born to the last second of your life) was happy then you wouldn?t enjoy it that much.



Baby Slash//

very well said slashly and this dude is what? 13!

very wise for your age bro

i believe that, gotta take the good with the bad and just because u go thru shit in your lifes doesnt mean there isnt a GOD

life is what we make it, i think GOD gave us life and its ours to figure out, i think we are judged based on what we do with our lives and how well we play the game

people who rape and kill others get to spend eternity in hell, whats more punishing than that?

if someone is a christian and they get murdered, whoever murdered them sent them home to heaven which really is a great thing not a bad thing

death is the beginning not the end and death is the easiest part about living! after we struggle thru life we are rewarded with the keys to the kingdom of heaven and thats gonna be the greatest!

Good job.

Just remember that when things are tough for you in your life too. They will be, but like you said, that is part of life. It's not always icecream and cake.

Are they voted in?  This country wasnt founded on pure democratic principles, read Federalist 10.  However, you begged the question.  Its not like the LDS have performed a coup de etat and taken over the government.  They are voted in based on the majority of the peoples votes?  Isnt that right?  Now you can say that they take account of minority interests, but that is why I am asking how you define democracy.  Is it majority rule?  Proportional representation (although even with this, at some time you have to get to majority rule).  Should the minority of people control what is going on?

I agree 100%.  I believe that everyone will have a chance to hear the gospel and accept or reject it after they die.  I think the most important thing is to live a good moral life.  Some religions (not to name any *cough* CATHOLIC *cough*) that believe that you have to believe in Jesus Christ before you die to be saved is absolutely absurd to me.  What about all of those that in Africa or other nations that havent had a chance to hear the gospel or hear about Jesus.  They are doomed because of where they were born?  If that is true, then is God is unjust.  That cant be the case, and I dont understand how people can believe that.

Yea. I mean to have somebody tell me that a Buddhist monk is going to hell because he doesn't believe in Jesus...give me a break.

Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.  -  Ether 2:12

But what will God do to those who never heard of the death of his Son? Will he punish the deaf for not hearing?
- Denis Diderot.

 :confused:

ill be honest, i have no clue. deep down i think none of us do, but it seems to be its unlikley there is a god based on how screwed up the world is. and always has been, for that matter. i have not ruled out the possiblity there is a god, but it seems to me that if there is a god the world should be in better shape than it is.

I believe there is a God.? Everybody seems to need a "something" in their life... for some people it's music, for others, it's a sport, or something else.  It's like we're designed so we need some higher purpose.  Unfortunately, if our higher purpose is man-based, or based on other people, it always fails because humanity ultimately always fails.  That perfection of love we all so desire will never be found in humanity.

As for why the world is so screwed up, as I see it, if He made us all inherently good, then we wouldn't need to choose good over evil.? There would be no evil.? ?He wants to be with souls who choose good over evil, not robots who just do exactly what He wants.

people's prespective of things. In you dont belive in one thats ok, no harm done. Everybody has an opinion if they belive in one or not. So my answer is, if you choose to belive, yes there is one.

I believe...I know... :)

Yes God is real ,and his name is Lemmy.

God was made up to stop people going crazy when they know they're going to die, the idea of there being nothing after is kind of shit so if people think there is a God they will A) Go quietly & B) So they get into heaven follow The Bible or at least that was the plan, the reason less people attend church these days apart from the fact there's more lazy students (me included :smoking: ), is people are alot smarter and with all the scientific progressions and stuff things like the theory of evolution make much more sense than some God we've never seen.? As for people who 'think' they've seen 'him/her/it/wtf?' it's all in the mind i've seen people who think they've had an ecstasy pill or think the 'rolly' you gave them has weed in it people who have never done it before and are clueless, and all you've given them is a painkiller or a regular rolly but they act all fucked because they think they've taken a 'drug' and are expecting to get fucked it's the same with God people who believe in him enough and want to see him eventually will....doesn't mean he's really there.? As for God not stopping all the shit in the world, if there was one then i would not expect him to intefere it's up to us to do what we want and make the best of things, if he started off the human race fine but we're supposed to have freewill and learn for ourselves and that's what we've always done so say he did exist...which he doesn't....i would not want or expect him to stick his nose in....although if he does exist i would n't mind him popping down from Heaven just to say 'hi...i do exist' then at least all these 'does he doesn't he' debates would end.

Deep down, some people believe and some don't. Others, like myself, take an agnostic stance on the issue due to a lack of empirical evidence either for or against God as a concept.

God is a faker.....

God is a man made thing to help humans cope with the terrible thought of death.

god created the seas, the warmth of the sun, the beautiful trees and animal life.... and cancer and famine and war and hate...whoops a few major design issues there...back to the drawing board...dum de dum...but while god creates version XP lets just let model version win98 run its course...can i ask god for an upgrade? aw damn too bad, there no compatibility...enjoy it...we are living in model win98..free virii with every dodgy application

I do believe that there is a God, I think there is too much good in the world for there not to be a God, but there is also too much bad in the world for there not to be a force of pure evil also. So, in my opinion there is a God, and also a satan. The one thing that annoys me is there is not a good system in which to worship him/her/it, I was raised a Catholic, but, in recent years I have had nothing but negative feelings towards the church, due to the sex scandals etc. And also the church refusing to change it's medievil teachings with regards to women's position in the church and also in society itself.

I agree, but that is a flaw of man not God.

I can not, and will not accept that God will only accept praise and love through organized religion.

Not to sound anti- religious but i believe God is a pussy (yes i do watch too much south park) ;D
sorry if that insults u but if there was a God, he wouldn't let all the shit that happens in the world happen (September 11th, Tsunami...etc)
When people say everything that happens happens 4 a reason- thats bullshit. God shouldn't of let gnr split up, or Kurt Cobain kill himself. He could have stopped all that. ::)
Dont get me wrong, everyone has their own opinions- i believe there in Christ, but not in His Father. If that makes sense to you- fair play.
All my life i've heard all the stories bout Adam and Eve ecetra, and was made  believe in "Our Lord" was real and u must go to church and praise the Lord, but now i see its all bull crap.
Dont bash me, and i hope i haven't offended anyone. : ok:

And how would he of stopped GN'R splitting up...threatened them with death? Made them like each other, should he of popped down from heaven and taken Kurt Cobain's gun off him.  Fuck what makes GN'R & Cobain so special, should God stop all break-ups...marriages etc. and stop all suicides, the world might be a happy place but what makes life so special is freewill so whether God exists or not we should be free to do what we want...within reason but if we do stuff we should not it is up to us to stop ourselves e.g. Police, Government.  Anyway going with the whole freewill not interfering mysterious dude thing God has going on (if he is real that is) he can't stop stuff like September 11th it's not his job he supposedly gave us life so it's upto us to stop stuff like this.

We definately agree on this SLC.? Another thing that pisses me off is when certain Christians claim that one cannot if they are not Christian, regardless if they have had exposure to the religion or not.? If that were the case God would be unjust.? To me, such a view point is almost as radical as some of tghe views that we accuse muslim extremists of having.

bump

another topic that has been done over several times and there is a thread do you beleive in God? why? which i bumped.... another that should simply be merged....

Making a push for Moderator Prometheus?

I think everyone would like for God to step in and stop bad things from happening, but he gave us free will and strong minds. We have to protect each other and make decisions that will benefit one another.? How would we ever learn if God always stepped in and took control?

God does hear our prayers and worries. He helps us in mysterious ways, but we have to pay attention. You can see God in people, like when someone helps you change your car tire. Simple acts of charity reminds us that we are holy. People like Mother Teresa prove that God works through us. His presence is all around, because he's in our hearts.?

Isn't God of the earth the Devil?

I? personally do not know if there is or is not a god (or goddess).? What I am fairly certain of is that the bible is not the "word of god" it is the word of man, and is therefore flawed.? (Note:? if it was the word of woman, it would be flawless.? LOL jk)

I do not believe in god, because there have been too many things in life, not just mine, but in the world as a whole, that conflict with the whole notion that there is a god.? Put simply, god cannot be all knowing and all loving at the same time, for if she/he knew everything that would happen, a truly loving being could not allow the horrific things to happen that do happen.

Of course, this is where christians throw in the whole "free will" argument.? However, if there is truly "free will" then, god is also not all knowing, because that would eliminate the possibility of free will, because if god knows what we are going to do before we do it,? then we aren't actually acting on free will, but the will that god gave us.

So either we have free will, and god is all loving... or god is all knowing and in complete control.

And if it's that god is all knowing and in complete control, then that makes us puppets for his amusement.? Which would really piss me off, and make me glad I'm going to hell.

Oh my goddess, I can't believe I've just thrown down the gauntlet for another religious debate.? This is why I left the chatrooms.? May Axl deliver me from the evil that is religious debate, and get me out of here by giving me chinese democracy.? ? :hihi:? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

i seem to have an ongoing problem of making threads that already exist. i apologize ill try to pay more attention

Isn't ether a anesthetic? You must mean Esther.

Real. Bcoz it works.

People allow horrific things to happen, not God.

Free will has to do with the fact that God does know us intimately, and can sense our direction, but he can't interfere with our direction/actions. If he directed our every move and decided how he wanted us to live, then we would be his puppets.

I belive in God because I belive in Satan because I belive in Evil because I belive in Man

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

actualy no "father nighttrain"..... it is one of my biggest peeves and as such im jsut going to be a fucking nag and any time i see a like posted thread im jsut going to post about it

i just realised, jarmo has curly hair and so does god...he also has lots of followers called moderators which could be his disciples...he also wears a shirt with a large G in the middle...coincidence? i think not ;D

I believe in God and I find people who don't believe in God due to bad things happening are misguided individuals.

Personal pain and tragedy lead to ultimate growth and understanding.

U have to go through bad shit in life to grow and be a complete person.

God has ways of testing u and your faith to see who the worthy ones are.

those who fold like a tent and cant face hard times are weak individuals.

those who blame everything bad on God are weak minded individuals.

We are born, We die, if the earth is only a temporary place and a intermediary to the next world, than Death isnt cruel or bad.

We all die, death is the beginning not the end so what's so bad about dying?

U also cannot put human traits into God, U cant judge Heaven and God by earthly ideas and characteristics.

We are here for a reason.

and Journey was right, we are here with free will and strong minds.

I think here is how it works.

People are put on the earth, God interferes here and there but basically we are on our own.
It is our job as mankind to make the world work, we are one big reality Tv show and we have to fix the planet, run it efficiently and find a way to all get along and be peaceful and godlike.

We have a time limit, when our time is up, the world ends... Nuclear War this time and then God will start over with a new group of people to see how well they do.

Humans are the outcast of the world

we are the only species who can worship a God, who know their own mortality, who can get jobs,and have all the range of emotions.

No other species is like humans, so we are like a mutation.

God has a plan and people are just too easy to dismiss God simply cause something bad happens.

the devil is also at work on the earth so maybe he makes the bad shit happen to test your faith against God.

Like I've stated, for some of your sakes, U better hope u are right.

If one is to accept the notion of god being the creator of all... then one must also accept that in creating all, god also created evil, for without evil there can be no good.  It's about balance.

Hense, if one is to accept that god is the creator of all, and then that he did create evil, then it falls into line that the horrific things that happen, are ultimately also the work of god, as god  (as the creator of all) also created the people that have allowed these horrific things to happen.

My favorite bible verse is:  Isaiah 45:7  (Note:  I have read the bible, in it's entirety, which has lead me to not believe in the christian concept of god.)  This verse says:  ""I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil"  (KJV)

That's supposedly god talking there.  It is a verse about balance within the universe.  You can't create a front without subsequently creating a back.  There is always a "flipside" and evil is the flipside of good. If god is "good" then she/he is also evil. 

As a parent, I am responsible for my children.  I am responsible for teaching them right and wrong, and keep them safe from impending danger. 

A good parent, a kind and loving parent, would not place a child in a room filled with something dangerous (choose your danger:  weapons, drugs, whatever).  A good, loving parent would not put a child in a position of temptation as a test of loyalty and obedience. 

But, god (the ultimate parent???) did this within the mythological story of adam and eve, with the apple, telling them they can look but not touch.  To test their loyalty and obedience. 

this god (if she/he does exist) does this on a daily basis, by demanding our obedience and loyalty, and says, if you don't worship me, I'll punish you for all eternity.  If I punished my daughters by the same rule, I'd be a terrible parent.

and... D... I am right.  Just so you know.   :hihi:

So... sense I chose not to believe in God I'm misguided? Just remember you're a product of your parents and their parents before them beliefs.

This is gonna be long.

I do believe in God, 1st cause I was taught to, 2nd to explain the reasons that go beyond comprehension is hard to understand for instance I can say that I have felt God whenever I need HIM/SHE, in so many cases. For instance when a cousin died last year I remember she went to MIAMI to buy some clothes cause she was gonna be married, then 2 days later she died, when I heard this I really had goosebumps she was so close to me, when the corpse came back from the USA to my country she had been taken picturues curiosly the 24 pictures in the camera had the same image of God, she never went to a church or thats what I heard, If she went to a church thats ok but 24 pictures?? thats very weird, there can be a lot of explanation, logical explanation, Im kinda Scully when it comes to paranomal, cause I dont think theres an entity that guide our destiny, but I do believe in God.

Whenever I feel restless I go to church and I feel peace, maybe is psicological but I do think that there is God that care for Us.

For the people that think that God let the 9/11 and tsunami and kill children happened thats men fault, we all have free will as we can kill, murder, assassin or whatever you want to say it, we can do good things and bad things cause we can, should we do it? thats up to anyone to decide.

The word belive is very unespecific when it comes to talk about God, do I believe in the theory of the meteorite that killed all the dinosours? NOP does that means that it doesnt exits? I dont think so, so is wrong question of asking if someone believes in God, the questions could be Do you know GOD?, people right away will say yes or no, perhaps people would say I dont know oh I dont care either way when saying do you believe in something is aseverating that something exits. Therfore God exits  :)

Another thing is that people think that everything that is going wrong in their lifes people should pray and wait for a miracle, thats just patethic how can a prayer resolve that if people doesnt even have faith in themselves? to solve something from your life or any problems you have just change your selves thats difficult I know but is that or keep whining, If someone is sick and stuff like that is a punishment I dont think so either cause it doesnt have to do with no onea at all a desease is a terrible thing but as we live in this world we should learn how to survive with precaution, if someone have to die thats dreadful I know it sucks but crying can bring back the person from death of course not is ok to cry and release the pain inside but live forever in pain thats just not life.

Someone here said that God also is evil cause in order to be good there has to be evil so we difference it right?, correct me if Im wrong, I think thats a good point of view and I agree with you not totally but I agree with you.

Finally, I believe that the phenoma of nature are the expression of infinitive intelligence and i belive that all form lifes are manifestation of spirits and thus all man are children of GOD  :peace:

that's just the failings of humanity being imprinted onto a higher being...people made god in the image of humanity, not the other way about

No Gunner80 if u choose to not believe in God that is your choice and that is fine.

If u dont believe in God only cause bad shit has happened to u or someone else, that is being misguided.

blaming the world's problems and your own problems on God is being misguided in my opinion.

There is a flip side to everything which is why I always thought that God was the good and The Devil was the bad?

or is that just me?

People who pray for a million bucks and then dont believe in God cause a million dollars isnt in their bank account are misguided.

People who blame God for their problems are misguided.

Life is what u make of it, we have free will to do what we want, which is why God doesnt strike u down when u choose to not believe.

I agree with what IQ said as well above.

Another thing I said, If the life we are living now is the intermediary to the next, then all this bad shit isnt bad at all.

the problem i have with religion is that different ones have existed since the beginning of time. what makes (e.g.) christianity so true but all of the others wrong.

people who have been spoken to by god are probably either misinterpreting or using this to give authority to their opinion.

people back then had different interpretation of good and evil, for example the boy with the "evil spirit" aka epillepsy in Mark.

believing in god doesnt make sense, but somehow i cant help doing so

If someone claims they are being lead by god, being spoken to by god, or carrying out instructions given to them by god,  in this day and age, these people are readily mocked, ridiculed, and basically denounced and dismissed as insane. 

Yet, christians (generically speaking, as a whole group) accept the bible as the word of god. 

God didn't write the bible.  She/he didn't sit on a cloud, pen the books, and then toss it down to earth and say "Hey, I wrote this, check it out."   The bible is the word of humans that claim that god spoke through them.

So, the writers of the bible also claimed to be lead by god, been spoken to by god, and carried out her/his instructions, to write this epic collection of books called the holy bible.  Why are these people not as readily mocked, ridiculed, and dismissed as one who would today make the same claim?             
                                         

Nah, he's just multifaceted... ;)

thats just the commercial aspect of the bible...try to appeal to everyone..it sells more product

ferengi rules of acquisition
Rule   60: Keep your lies consistent.
Rule 267: If you believe it, they believe it.

so thats how bush won......

I don't think that all religions are wrong, I think that religions are base on a utopy, which at certain points in our lives we all tend to think that way.
Christianity so true?, well I guess is call Christianity cause Christ died in the cross and then he resurected(faith).
well If you see history even the whole history is divided in 2 parts before christ and after christ, I mean he really changed the world but that doesn't mean that chrisitianity is so true that means that christianity has more influence on everythig more than religion itself.

Once again I'm reminded of the fact that we two are the only fools here with Star Trek avatars... : ok:

No, it is Ether.

If He shaped man in His image, then why is he punishing them for flaws which he to possesses. He may just be a security blanket for humankind because we are unsure and in result afraid of how we came to be in this big and lonely universe. Some were so cynical that they beleived in simple stories and began to write them, while others half-agreed with them and decided to re-write them. This led to great stories of miracles and wonders beyond human capacity. I'm probably wrong, and a crazy fool; but what if I'm not.? What if life is just a neverending quest for our souls from life to life. I've always questioned my faith as I do now, but God has always played, if even a small one, a role in my life. Do you really beleive that faith will save you from a speeding train or rabbid pack of dogs? I don't think so, I think you are responsible for what happens to you to a certain extent. Once you reach the inevitable then here, finally, is where there is absolutley nothing that you can do. Ultimately man will be the cause of the end of the world by fire; if there truly is an end to the world. If anything I think that we as a race will become extinct by our own egotistical and power-hungry minds. So how did we come to be? I'm sick of all the idiotic "leaders," when will they see that no matter what religion or beleifs, they all end up dying and becoming part of whatever lies in wait for us whence we're gone. Of course, so "coincidentially" put; we were allowed *free will* above all else. I to hope that there is a God and Creator of All Things because it terrifies me that there just may not be one. (~~)

First I believed in God, because that's how I was raised to think.
Then I guestioned and doubted due to sciense. I thought life and everything in universe was just a dice. Then I understood that all the physic laws must have a lawmaker. Religions are to search for the lawmaker.

I still doubt though the old testament as a book inspired by God, it seems to be edited, dirty and unuseful, e.g. deyteronomion and levetikon have some weird laws for the Jewish (no offence), like what should happen to a bull if he kills a woman with his horns. Why such a silly thing should be inside? In adittion every book of the old testament has a prostitute inside. Is that necessary (inspired by God?!)? Also, even distinguished persons there like Solomon, Moses and other were killers (if anyone doubts this, he can make a better research in his own bible). The only thing you see there, is that God sends a prophet, hebrews don't believe him, they believe in a veal, they chase him, (No wonder why Jews crucified Jesus). God becomes angry. then he sends another.... One thing that makes me doubt this book is that God there (Jehovah) is a hostile god, an avenger and brutal god, and sometimes a silly God! If you check the new testament you will see a pittier God, a God of love and forgiveness (what the hell?). Why he changed. Only new testament persuades me as a reasonal book.
My ancestors, the greeks (during the same era the old testamnet was writen) were creating civilization and we're teached in schools how the jews crossed the desert (I wonder how they were found in Egypt?).
All in All, I'm a christian but I really doubt the attachment to the old testament and the attachment to the official church of my country. I don't go to church every Sunday but I'm a better person and Christian than some old people who go every Sunday and then they revel. (same thing Axl once said).


P.S. Many here ask why He made the man go to hell or paradise (according to his acts) and not only to paradise. You all don't get that God gave the choice to the man himself to choose. He doesn't punish us. You choose yourself where you want to go. If He made us all go to Paradise then that's against free will and God have us free will (even to the angels) to choose what to range with, the good or evil. God lets human to do everything he wants. He can also be saved if he really regrets. Which else religion allows that?

Even if God didn't exist it's essential to exist in our minds. See what happened in former countries of Soviet Union. If there's no God, there's no reason for someone to be moral and respect his life or other's life. If we let think that God doesn't exist then we're just lucky monkeys that evolved to understand our existence and in the world exists only the law of the Jungle. There's no after life, no resurection so let us live and grab the best we can without scruples. You get it now, why religions need to exist? either God exists or not.

As my point of view hell doesn't exits, or it is not the tipical place with flames and lots of fire where people suffer, me as christian hell would be life without prescence of God, as simple as that do you need to suffer if you dont have Goid in your life of course not, but I know that hell is not a punishment is just a misinterpretation.

I see people's choices making them miserable on their own; enough to not believe in a biblical hell. People make their own heaven or hell right here, through Karma, and decisions they make.

Yeah I guess we do, or at least I do.
Sometimes people think that religion has to be about punishment if you don't follow the right path and what's the right path?? go to church every sunday, pray or meet God? I don't like to do any of this stuff yet I sense there's a God out there.

Yea. How many religions claim they are the absolute truth? And if you don't follow directions you're bound to burn. Give me a break. You'd have to be a member of a few hundred religions just to be safe.

I believe in a higher power, sure. I believe in higher power, karma (instant and long term) and human choice that creates misery and hapiness. People will say "Live life on life's terms", which means that there are things that are going to happen to you that you have no control over.

Karma is all around us. I see people who put out shit (bad intentions, lies, selfishness)  and have a miserable life. I've seen instant examples of this and long term. They create their own world, they really do.

What makes me laugh is when people will say "Oh that tornado didn't blow my home away, God was watching out for me." Does that mean God was not watching out for the other people who lost their home in the same storm? (Insert the predictable: They must have been on God's bad list" here)

Hardly. It means, the tornado happened to blow their freakin' house away. That's it! That would be an example of life on life's terms. Things we have no control over.

The bible? Written by men....not God. There are some great lessons in the bible: acceptence, love, being honest, not judging. Then there are bad ones: Keeping women in their place, slavery, murder, and stories that completely condradict themselves. As humans we pick the stories that we can use to defend our beliefs and disregard the others.

Hell being a place full of fire is just a tradition that began from real historical facts from people that were burning other people for sucrifices e.t.c. It's not really mentioned in the Bilbe hell to be like that.
A priest once told me that hell could be an absolute restraint. If you were in hell, you could have your soul restrained and not be able to speak to anyone else. This could mean real Hell!

I think life here is temporary. We can make our life better or worse according to our thoughts and decisions. Quality of life can be explained from determinism. Every result has its cause. No heretic thoughts intented here, just a point of view explained through physics.

What if there is no after life and we all just cease to exsist when we die, what would that be like

Most relegions have the same princibles, your not suppossed to take everything written in all the holy scriptures seriously. Just lead a good life and then you'll recieve a good afterlife

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

couple days before died Alber Anstain said"now i believe in good."

Relax, it will be like you've never been born.  :smoking:

No, I've never seen any reason to believe.

I believe we all need something to rely on... and that is certainly what we call GOD....

This thread is like pissing in the wind!!   why Jarmo hasn't locked it is beyond me?.

It's an ultimately fruitless discussion for someone with enough sense to stay clear of it, sure. But that's just it - it is a discussion; and one with active and less than unruly participants at that. So...?

Why do you think it's lockable anyway?

I don't care what people say they believe in , doesn't make them a better or worse person . Hitler believed in God but he was a demented dude . i don't want to state too much of my religion beliefs but i believe in God and i don't go to church . my friend practices witchcraft but she don't judge me for wat i believe in . i was born catholic , my family didn't force it on me , they are good people .i have friends who are athiest or that believe in something different that i am close to . IF ur a religous fanatic and judge people for not agreeing with you, you are a prejudice asshole!

Having just completeted three years studying the man - i didn't find anything that suggested he believed in god

Hitler planned to destroy all religions and establish a new one which worshipped....well, him, it was called the German Faith Movement

Hitler succeded in bringing hope to the germans in thier time of doubt, but his one mistake was to take out his racism on jews. However, I belive in God, because to be honest there is really no reason not to.

That's a joke right - u didn't just say Hitler made ONE mistake?

So u don't think his murder of Russians and Poles was a mistake?

What about the murder of his own people and starting a war that killed 60 million?

U make me sick, perhaps u should check a war memorial if u think Hitler's so great

Tongue in cheek?

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

I have a book on the life of hitler ,in the book ,  there was a billboard hanging in germany that said "Believe in God to resist the jews ," in a picture of germany in the holocaust era . also they said he was raised roman-catholic .i guess he believed in god.sorry if a made a mistake.

I don't want to boost Hitler by saying these things but every world war conquest has it's victims. Genghis Khan killed millions of Chinese. Yet we call him the biggest Conqueror of all time. Why? because we are too far from those times?
We should blame every conqueror for killing people, but every nation had his conquerors.
Also, watch some more comparisons. Hitler wanted to conquer all the world.
Napoleon wanted the same thing, or at least the Europe in first phase.
Why we call Napoleon, the eagle of France e.t.c. and Hitler not?
Moreover he was a dictator and killed the Germans who opposed him. Didn't Alexander the Great did the same thing with the Thebeans in Greece. He destroyed the entire city (Thebes) in order to set out his conquest to Persia without any danger remaining in Greece. There are more war crimes. The Turks leaded of Kemal Atatourk (a Turkish nationalist) did genocide to the Greeks and Armenians and killed the most part of the Armenian population in Anatolia. Yet the modern Turks call him the father of the Turks. The first americans eliminated the Indians. The Spanish destroyed the Aztecs under the pretence of spreading christianity. The Roman generals were ordering to kill or enslave every male in each city they conquered.

I know Hitler did a huge crime by killing jews. After everything I said above, I conclude that this is indeed his worst crime. Unless we say every conqueror was blood-thirsty, crazy megalomaniac. I think either we call everyone like that or we let Hitler alone and say he was another failed conqueror that did war crimes.

Lol - Hitler always wanted to seem a good Christian - after all the Nazi Party 'manifesto' spoke of 'Positive Christianity' - it was propoganda it served his purpose to seem as a Christian - but remember he regarded the Old Testament as a 'Jewish' book, he had to temper his stance though, he didn't want to annoy the Churches too much, untill he was ready to have them all gassed or shot, or whatever nightmare he had in store

A reference to another post perhaps? - read it again, u'll see what i mean, maybe i was too vague.

When people praise Hitler they should have think about the millions that idiot had slaughtered, its because idiots like him praise Hitler that such derenged ultra-right wing views still exist

Don't decieve ur self into thinking Hitler's war for racial annihilation has any parellel in history - those other nutcases where after land, Hitler wanted to kill everything he had a problem with

I know, my country (Greece) suffered the most. The nazis, terminated entire towns. We had the most deaths in Europe regarding to our population.

I tend to think, that everything Hitler couldn't do with weapons, does Germany now peacefully with E.U.

just curious as to how many on here believe in god and the bible... i do, i got christian parents but they're not that strict though so i kinda always got to do my own thang, i don't go to church anymore because i have alot of doubts about things there but i definately believe in god though, i just don't see how a perfectly put together and complex eco system that we have here on earth can have happened by accident. that being said, i'm no religious nut lol, i just think we are here for a reason and having read the bible from an early age i definately feel in my heart (i've also had direct experiences where i've felt god's closeness to me) that the bible is true.

no

Same as tap.

yeah but why?
i'm open to every view, would  be cool to have a debate around it :)

I do, though I generally have problems with some aspects of organized religion.

I also don't look at religion in the competitive manner that many do (in other words, "if my religion is right, then people from other religions go to 'Hell'", etc.).   

Yes I believe,but i have very oposite opinionfrom my chourch.
Well for me every man on earth is a god child whetever religious he is.

I believe in A divinity, i don't call it, and i don't see why it would be just a 1 and male.

It could be multiple and unknown type, more astral than the male representation that was created by a male ruled political organisation that used to be the " vatican" at the very beginning.

I have a complicated religion of belief or whatever, can't explain it but it's the best for me :yes:

Even if you do, even if you don't you still should write it with a capital "G"

i guess u can say im neutral. i dont believe in it, it really is bullshit, but i could be possible idk. i dont believe in it

I've always typed it in lower case, based on the grounds that I don't believe in such a thing. I also type "troll", "pixie" and "yeti" in lower case.

u just pwned MadmanDan..

Short answer? Yep,  I do.

god is a concept...for which we measure our pain.

I'll say it again.

god it a concept...for which we measure our pain

That Mr. Lennon guy once sang a little diddy about that.

there is such thing as a search function

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=20573.0

and if you read the rules found here (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=14144.0) you would know to search for the topic first.


just because your new dont mean it has not been covered and beat to death over the last years that you were not here........ i took my licks for it with my first thread just happened to be a mods thread.... the what are you reading now thread....

No and I never will.

I am both a pope and a saint in the Discordian church.  So are all of you, even though you may not know it.

And in response to the whole thing of "God" or "god" being correct, it's capitalized if you're using it as a proper name.  If making reference to the gods, a god, or a non-specific one, it's lower case.  Same thing on like saying mom or dad.  If you say "Is your my mom home?" it's lower case.  If you say "Is Mom home?" it's capitalized.  The first is just a noun, the second is a proper noun.  Hard to understand for some, but to me it's perfectly obvious and makes sense.

 ::)

No way...I'm a determinist.

And I agree about the spelling stuff.  Now i Need A Beer.

Well, if you say 'no', you run the risk of getting on his bad side if it turns out he really does exist.? So, uh, yeah, I believe in the big guy (or gal or whatever else).? :D

God prefers to be informally referred to as "The Big Neuter."

We could call that GeorgeSteele's wager, next you need to invent a triangle.

If not for Google, your post would have had my head spinning for days.  Now I'm just depressed because it turns out Pascal didn't think through the possibility of believing in the wrong God (guess what? I didn't either).  Maybe I should just worship Al Gore for inventing the all-knowing, all-powerful Internet.

 :nervous:

yes
because if they believe and are truely sorry for there sin they are forgivin, because Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins we are forgivin through him.

I believe in God because you can't just say, imo, that we are here just by 1:1billionth chance that the big bang happened, if it would have happened either way by less than the width of your hair then we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

Now think abou this there was a "big Bang" right? well a big bang implies light and in the beginning of the Bible God says "let there be light" that i think was the "big bang".

I believe that God created man kind because even though child birth is explained quite detailed through science its still a miracle. A miracle from God if you ask me.

as a teenager i like church i know that wierd for my age (maybe idk) but when you go to church you feel clean and pure like you just got out of the shower and plus the paster tells a story about Jesus (around this time a year because its lent or easter) and then you get a drink a wine and cracker and then ya go home :)

i think that you can believe what ever you want because thats your choice you can't get any one to believe unless they want to and you can't make them see that they have to see it for them selves. And beeings you have that freedom to believe in what ever you want i think its wrong to emplore your religion on some one else.( thats why i can't stand mormans ;) well......just dont like them ) its cool if you wanna share your thoughts with others like what we're doing hear but if it gets to the point where you are annoying or getting annoyed you need to say something cause thats going against your rights as a human.

and dont say "well what kinda God would allow this or that or blah blah blah blah blah :rant: " dont do that cause God made us and knows what we are capable of. He knows that we aren't prefect thats why he sent is son from Heaven, Jesus, to die for us on the cross.

ha.....anyway, here's a question I've thought about recently. Who thinks belief or non-belief is a choice (as so often it is described in terms of religion.) Much as I'd love the idea of spending a blissful eternity with everyone I love, there is absolutely no way I can 'choose' to believe anything about Christianity (or any other religion.) It's not that I don't want to but I can't believe....it's not a choice.

There is no such thing as choice, only genes and enviroment. That applies to everything.

This is an interesting question.
I have been raised to and sent to religious camps.

I shall return after more research.

A fellow believer in determinism? 

I guess so (just checked it out on wiki)

Damn, that makes me feel so less special  :hihi:

What does that word mean?

So are you guys saying that the delay in Chinese Democracy was caused by the Big Bang and not Axl? :)

The plot thickens, eh? :hihi:

Yep I do...keekee...because I need too  :D....

No I do not.

I have not read the posts, other than the heading......I believe God is a woman! Only a woman could have made Earth and life as beautiful as this and made it so darn harsh and confusing as well, and all things being equal, women are beautiful, but will never understand them!

^that's because we are superior and men are dumb! :hihi:

I bet that's what God thinks and all... "Dumbass humans haven't figured me out yet", maybe she is a woman. :nervous:

If she is, i'll bet she's sexy as!

Now, I imagine my work here should be done after being derogative and chauvinistic towards the almighty Lord, but still I feel compelled to post on.? I do believe in a God, yet in no freakin way will I attempt to explain how it works.? I think that, just as cats and dogs can't understand the concept of war, we cannot begin to understand God.? Maybe (just maybe) the purpose that mankind instinctively feels - this absolute innate determination to find answers in life - maybe that is to evolve and improve until we can understand God.? Maybe that's why mankind is so special, because we do have a quest to discover the meaning of life.? Maybe everything - maths, science, beauty, nature, the stars - maybe they're all clues to help us discipher the great mystery that surrounds us all.

Or maybe we're not special - maybe our intelligence is just another survival technique.? What's brilliant is it doesn't really matter, we can believe what we like with little consequence.? If we die and nothing happens then we'll never get the chance to be disappointed! ;D

name one thing that women do better than men

there's several things

like.......

whatever.

Wow, I thought you'd give at least one reason.  I can think of several...


Anyways, we're going back on topic now.  God is not pleased...