Here Today... Gone To Hell!

A tax is a financial charge or other levy imposed on an individual or a legal entity by a state or a functional equivalent of a state (e.g. tribes, secessionist movements or revolutionary movements). Taxes could also be imposed by a subnational entity. Taxes consist of direct tax or indirect tax, and may be paid in money or as corv?e labor.

With our election times in France, and the same thing in the USA.

Let's talk about TAXES.
Yout thoughts, what to do to improve it?

in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
it states that Taxes are a necessary conditions for Social Security and Stability of the State.

I personnaly do not pay taxes yet (direct yearly taxes) as i am still in my first year of work.
I have a upper class job, so considering the climate during the presidential campaign, i should be complaining. i am not :)

The United States of America is 231 years old, but its income tax system has existed only since 1913.  Since then, not much has changed in terms of wealth distribution, however, its military has become the most powerful in the world's history. 

So if your premise is that taxes are acceptable to you because you believe they're necessary from a socio-economic justice perspective, bear in mind that it's unlikely tax revenues will be allocated in a manner you deem appropriate.

But the right wing here in france, is putting that argument ahead: - rougjhly -
the riches shouldn't pay as much cause they are the ones able to re-inject their money in the economy.

I personnaly think that we cannot jeopardize the lives of the poor by thinking " they will probably do it ".

But what do you mean they will unlikely be allocated in an appropriate way?

Well, I gave the US example to illustrate that point.  How would you feel if the 65% taxes you pay are used, not to assist society's unfortunate, but to build France into a military superpower?

 

Oh yeah, that would annoy me :)
I didnt uinderstand you were specifically talking about that.

So that's one thing: how are taxes used.

Then there is: should riches be taxed way more than poor? In what manners?
Extrem right wing even consider gettting rid of taxes  !! (i am talking about taxes on your wealth / salary).

The theory of justice by Rawls, veil of ignorance
no one knows his place in society, his class position or social status, nor does anyone know his fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities, his intelligence, strength, and the like. I shall even assume that the parties do not know their conceptions of the good or their special psychological propensities. The principles of justice are chosen behind a veil of ignorance.
from that, how can we refuse to help the poor with the money we acquired, knowing that "we could have been poor" .... :)

U should live in the Uk - we are pay income tax, national insurance, a small fortune for petrol and then on top of everything we pay 17.5% to our Overlords in Brussels

I dont mind the income tax, but VAT is just beyond the pale - i've just given a chunk of my earnings to the government and with the palty sum left i have to give 17.% of everything i buy so French farmers can make grain mountains....

The UK has the third lowest VAT in the EU and there?s the UK rebate, so the UK pays considerably less to the EU than any other member state (despite having the second largest economy in the EU)

I think I'm in the majority over here in the U.S. in thinking that the ultra-wealthy get away with murder on their taxes. 

I don't believe in the radical re-distribution of wealth a-la some Communist revolution, and I don't believe in a flat tax conservatives would like.

Every decade or so we have to look at the situation of wealth disparity.  The problem has grown exponentially under our current president who gave huge tax cuts to the ultra-wealthy in an effort to spur the economy from the top down.  It's called "trickle down" economics.  The money, when in the hands of the ultra-wealthy, gets re-invested by creating businesses and more jobs for the lower and middle classes.  If it has helped so much, why is the middle class being squeezed so much? 

Unfortunately, the disparity between rich and poor has become way too big.  When this happens, I think we need to increase the tax burden on the ultra-wealthy.  For some reason, the electorate in the US didn't understand this is exactly what Kerry wanted to do to save Social Security.  Just by rolling back the Bush tax cuts on the ultra-wealthy, Social Security would have been sustainable for several more decades.  As it exists now, Social Security will not be around for my generation.  That's right, we're losing it in our pay-checks now, and we won't be getting it when we're old and pooping our pants.  Even billionaire Warren Buffett found all the money he was saving on taxes didn't make any sense.

Oh well, what do I know.   

It's a very scary thought to know the taxes you are paying now will not be there to benefit you in the future-AKA Social Security.

Wat-ever, tell me about French taxes.  How come you don't pay in your 1st year?  I am interested to know how it works there. 

well taxes here in canada is much different from the US....... and we pay far less tax then what you do yet we have far more social programs....... our military is in ruins.... but getting stronger...... though if we wanted to repel a US invasion...... wed need to put about 7000% more into it... lol

our current military budget is only like 0.9% GDP about 25 billion for a 65k force, but the salaries are bout 5-7% higher here compared to the US.

we have medicare for everyone, my provience is not introducing a phramacaide program for everyone. for a country of 37million and an unemployment rate of 6.3% we created 89k new jobs in january alone. we are paying down the national debt, should be done in 18-22 yrs. we have one provience that is in the black with multi billion dollars a year surplus, and at least 3 others that wil be debt free in 10yrs or less. we are increasing spending to the military, post secondary, medical, and enviromental. Plus we are cutting taxes to the middle class and below, why also slashing a nation wide sales tax from 7% - 5% (now @ 6% going to 5 within the next 3 yrs) we are the strongest economy in the G8 and still growing at a annual rate of around 2.9% with inflation growing @ annual 1.2%.


we pay taxes on income...... like everyone..... i read that VAT 23% proposed in the US to replace the income tax system....... bad idea...... u want a taxiation system similar to us with a 7% Goods and services tax. with a gst excemption on food (this is narrowed and does not include junk food or canned food pop and bottled water and juces that are not fresh) you reduce the income taxes of the middle and below but tax everyone the GST and ofer rebates to persons of low income brackets, on a quarterly basis... same value cheque for all. it actualy stimulates teh economy more and will increase the overall tax revenues while taking the strain of the poor, while making the rich pay more.

and get military spending under control!!!!! do a 15 yr matain spending so that spending does not increase but give ability to atain forces and equipment.

Thanks Prom, I didn't know much about the tax system in Canada.  I don't think we will be invading you anytime soon so I wouldn't worry about that.  We are too busy invading other places for reasons that are still unclear to me.   :-X

I know that I personally believe it's impossible to be fiscally responsible and also to be the world's police force.  If you make the US military primarily defensive (i.e. smaller and not stationed on every continent), then you could do one of three things:
1.) Drastically cut taxes
2.) Drastically increase social spending
3.) Some combination of both

As a libertarian, I'm in favor of low taxes, but I'm not an extreme libertarian, in that I don't want to immediately rip away social programs on which people are dependent.  But, if every tax dollar that goes toward having an enormous military could be privately saved, it would certainly decrease the need for such a massive social security program.

There is going to be riots in the streets when people start to retire and dont' get their SS checks.  An entire generation is going to be PISSED OFF beyond belief.  It could spark a revolution, no joke.

Totally agree about the wealth not paying their share of taxes.  Bush tax cuts were a joke.  Another notch on his belt of "how i fucked up the country"  :no:

Count me in with your geriatric revolution.  Who cares if we're in our 70s, we'll go around pissing on people's couches. 

Seriously, I'm all for the principle behind what Wat-ever is saying, but if there's ultimately going to be a misuse of tax funds (wars, misappropriation of retirement funds, special interest groups, etc.), then I'll always be in favor of minimal taxes.

I don't like taxes like everyone  else, but what can you do? I estimate that this year (2006 tax year) my wife and I will pay about $14,000 in federal taxes. Ouch.

But at some level you get what  you pay for.

In the US, we have lower  taxes  but don't get many services from the feds, other than postal  "service" and military "protection" (don't even get me started on  that one). The US spends more on defense than the next 24 countries, combined, and next year Bush wants to increase the defense budget by 11%.

In Western European nations, taxes  are  higher, take  home  pay is less, but you get more  services and more 'free' stuff--like health care and education. So it's a mixed bag and I am not sure who has the better system

One thing  I can say is that all governments spend too much, and often in the interests of big business and not for the people. We need a way to make sure tax money is spend well and for the interests of the nation, not specialized interests.

About the < It's called "trickle down" economics > AxlPrez is talking.

One word: Stock Market and Trading.

For now 15 years, the Stock Market performances is way higher than any investements in industry/company.
Basically, people with money will put make their money work in the market (banks, traders, funds) because it has a very high performance (average this year in France 22%, Spain 36% !!!).
Average ROI (return on investments)? for putting your money in a company 6 to 8 %.

Little problem: putting your money in the Stock Market does not create jobs.

The Finance world has been sky rocketing for years now; why: Money is Free to travel anywhere in the world. People are not. Machines are not.

And that is why the very liberal way of "letting the rich take care of the poor in an organic way" does not work anymore. Because, unlike 50 years ago, the rich won't create a cool company that employ 50 people, he will just put his money in the bank and make it work: money movement makes money.

Then yeah, as Krispy Kreme says, in Europe we got health care and all, i think it's amazing. Altho i dont use it as i'm never sick :(

So ur point being providing other countries have something worse its okay? :confused:

We're being bled dry, and the other poor saps in the EU are being bled dry just a little bit quicker

here's a good read on US taxes from the US Treasury...

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/economics.shtml


In the United States, the Treasury Department reported based on IRS data the share of all federal taxes paid by taxpayers of various income levels.[4] The data shows the progressive structure of the U.S. federal tax system that reduces the tax incidence of people with smaller incomes, as they shift the incidence disproportionately to those with higher incomes.

- The top 0.1% of taxpayers by income pay 17.4% of all federal taxes (earning 9.1% of the income).

- The top 1% of taxpayers by income pay 36.9% of all federal taxes (earning 19% of the income).

- The top 5% of taxpayers pay 57.1% of all federal taxes (earning 33.4% of the income).

- The bottom 50% pay 3.3% of all individual income taxes (earning 13.4% of the income).

bottom 50% pay 3.3% ... wierd ....

Yea and who is gonna pay when one of you falls down and breaks a hip??????????

That?s just bullshit. It?s not like the money gets burnt or something. It gets invested all over the EU (The region I come from the large mayority of the EU investment money is well spent). Most of that money gets back to the country where it came from. I don?t know the numbers for the UK but Germany paid 22 billion € and got 17 billion €. With the rebate the UK probably gets more than it pays.
Also no country in the EU "bleds dry" from paying to the EU fund, it has a maximum of 1.3% of the GDP which isn?t that much.

European countries have been at war since such a long time and finally there?s a union and a chance for enduring peace and freedom. Most EU-critic people just don?t realize that. It?s just arguing over money again and again. After all the less fortunate get most of the EU fund money and I have no problem paying for that.

I am laughing my ass off at this post.  GeorgeSteele cracks me up.  I work alot with the older set for a living.  I get to see everyday on the job what happens to the human body when you don't take care of it.  Diabetes, hip fractures, heart disease, stroke, dementia...all of these things can be prevented or at least delayed a couple decades if folks just took care of themselves.  Yeah, you can be all cool and say, "ya gotta die sometime!," but trust me, there are good ways to go, and the not so pleasant ways to go. 

Also, Sandman posted some interesting stats in this thread.  I feel soooo bad about the multi-millionaires having to pay out their a-holes for taxes....not.  Why don't we pull up some graphs that illustrate the increasing separation between rich and poor...and that's with  a progressive tax system in place.  Just take a guess how big that disparity would be if you implemented a "flat tax" which would set one % for all people.  Come on.   

When social security, fees, licenses, and other taxes are taken into account, the ultra rich actually pay less, percentage wise, in taxes than the upper middle class, who pay the most. Here's the breakdown.

Upper middle class
ultra rich
middle class
poor

The poor end up getting money from the government because they take in more than they give back. The middle class breaks even. The ultra rich pay more, but don't care because they live well anyway. The upper middle class gets SCREWED. This is what most proponents of the flat tax point out. Attempts to equalize income will only hurt the industrious poor (upper middle class) who are trying to become ultra rich by their hard work, the ultra rich get away with it due to slick accountants and lawyers, the lazy poor get the benefits, and the middle class sits on their asses in their usual condition and fail to excel, as usual.

A flat tax would be on consumption, and stupid ass middle classmen who enjoy buying crap on credit wouldn't like that. The saving, investing upper middle class wouldn't be hurt as much, and it would be more fair to them, but they're outnumbered by idiots, so it never passes. America's savings rate is terrible, our trade deficit is terrible, and our fiscal deficit is terrible, and our tax system encourages it all!

This country will be destroyed by the idiot middle class. The 10% or so of the middle class who can rise to the top with their industriousness and innovation are being held back, and this is holding America back. The ultra rich just don't give a damn.

i found out that in France, right now
the ratio separating Riches and Poors is 7 to 1
after taxes it's 4 to 1.

Walk, i can see what you mean, but i have to disagree on the final analysis, the ones getting are the poor ones. always.

A4prez - feel free to post those graphs about the seperation of the rich and poor. but that's a seperate issue that's not really relevant to how much taxes different classes pay.

i don't feel bad for the rich, but i certainly do not think they need to be taxed more. the stats speak for themselves.

i think there should be a progressive system, but not as drastic as it currently is. 

WAT-EVER, this reminds me of a post you had a while back about feeling guilty about having a nice video game system when you know there are people starving in the world.  Unfortunately, there will always be poor people starving in the world.  As time moves on maybe we can make that number dwindle, but we will always have a struggling segment of society.

Our moral obligation is not to give to the poor until they are rich, or even give until they break even.  Our moral obligation is to provide a society in which, with hard work and talent, each and every person has a chance to rise above their born-into socio-economic level.

Sandman, I think it's very important to see the disparity, and it's directly related to tax structure.  To deny that the 2 are linked is crazy talk.  Also, let's not forget that the numbers you gave are based on income.  Just because you don't have a high income doesn't mean you aren't very wealthy.  You know as well as I do that the wealthy have many ways to hide assets.  I take it you supported GW Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy.  Personally, I find it sickening. 

I'm not talking communist revolution here.  I just want a system in place that adjusts itself based on how evenly wealth is distributed in the country as a whole.  Take some of the extra the wealthy have and get it into funding schools and law enforcement.  Just a thought.  :peace: 

the sad fact is the Republicans care too much about the rich, and the Democrats about giving all our taxes to the poor.

where is the Middle class?? stuck in the middle getting the brunt of the taxing :no:

Excellent post. I was going to say the same thing.

a few years ago i used to get paid OT. so i worked 4 extra hours, got my paycheck and noticed it was about the same as it always was. finally figured out that the extra hours put me in a higher tax bracket.

the government took away all of my extra earnings, so i never worked OT again. and it didn't make sense to me that the government would have a tax system that would act as a disincentive to hard work and growth. 

Sandman, I actually agree with you on your OT issue.  That's f'd up.  However, I will agree that in a perfect world, a flat tax makes sense.  But, in a perfect world, communism looks pretty swell too.  Neither work in the real world though.  What we need as a nation are leaders who can tweak the system when it gets out of whack.  The separation between rich and poor, along with a shrinking middle class, all point to the obvious.  The wealthy need to pitch in a little more.