Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I got an idea for this of the Berkley Riots post "Talk about a sick case - I hope they give her the DP"

Surely this is a fun topic now at x-mas time  : ok:

In my opinion the justice system overall has many flaws.

- How come do you get a bigger fine of speeding than if you beat someone?

- How is it possible that you get to do more time of finance crimes than if you kill someone?

These are things that could never fit into my conception of justice.

I've always wondered also, when we get refugees or immigrants, now I don't have a problem with that. But when they do crimes, why do we keep them here? And I'm not talking about shoplifting, but when we get a bit further from that.

Now isn't it just the understandable thing to do, that if you give someone shelter in your house and the next morning you found your stereo stolen, that person isn't welcome anymore? Right?

Here's a true story and I don't find any sense of justice in.

A girl I know was raped, and it took forever to close the case, since the guys testifying for the raper didn't make it to the hearing four times.
Why? 'cos they were too stoned or in prison.

And in the end the guy walked. And beated and raped another girl two months from that. The first girls lawyer wanted to file a complain or whatever it's called, but the girl couldn't take the pain to go through what happened another few months in court. And how bad must it feel when you go and tell you've been violated like that and for the victim it was like the law, or the police, said she was lying.

Now this girl is someone very, very, close to me. And if I see the guy I will beat him like he's never been beaten before. And it is for paying him back, it is for punishment. I once had a fight with a guy who had beaten a girl I had as a fuckbuddy back then and he's never bothered her since. Fear works. Violense works. I'm sure most of you know cases that have been bullied in school, hell, maybe even been beaten by a stepdad at home. Now isn't it strange that it stops when you prove more powerfull?

You see, not everyone listens to reason.

So yes, if I see him, I will pay him back, 'cos the law didn't. And 'cos they didn't believe the word of a sixteen year old girl over an drug addict. And if for nothing more than to show the girl acts like that don't go unpunished. If for nothing more, it fights too much against my believes of "right". Everytime I see, or hear a man beating his wife or beating his girlfriend, it reminds of something of my childhood. And I believe it's every man's responsibility to stop it.

Now can anyone, from the heart, say my actions would be unjustified? By your own measure of right.

if i was in your place i'd do the same thing man. i mean, the rapists, in my opinion, should be punished like the killers or even worse because a killer takes a life away but the dead person won't feel anything anymore but a raped person will have to live with that moment for the rest of her life. some people get over that moment some don't but still i don't think it's easy.
and in your case. i'd definitely beat that fucker until he pisses blood so after he gets out of hospital he'll be afraid to walk alone on the street. yes, it's not legally correct but when the law system fails maybe it needs a little civil help.

Death Wish style.  Vigilante Justic is the only true justice.

man, i guess one day you'll learn.

violence works .....
so i guess using violence to have sex with a girl works too ?

hum.

Wow, i can only imagine the kind of home you were raised in, drunken abusive parents, problems with the law, long term struggles with substances?

If so then you have my pity

If not - with views like that, you have my contempt

Violence as deterrence or self-defense should be necessary only as a last resort.? But its worthless as payback.? Sin Cut, I also grew up in a violent environment and thought just like you did, until realizing that you're adopting the mentality and problem "solving" methods of people you despise, in essence becoming like them.?

Boring cliche, but true - best revenge is living well.? That's worked for me for quite a while now; in fact, I never look at my "People To Kill" list anymore.

? ?

this coming from the guy who wished a bomb would drop on my house and kill all my friends and family and that every "american and international warmonger" would burn in hell.

yeah, you're not a hyprocrite at all are you?   ::)

on topic - i agree with george steele, violence is a last resort, but sometimes its the only thing that works.

Yeah, I'd say it's unjustified. I'm not saying that the guy wouldn't deserve it, but that your anger is pointed in the wrong direction.

Yes, we'd all like to take our own revenge against those who slight us. The very reason that we, as civilized people, have created justice systems to deal with these situations is because if the creation of laws and dispensing of justice is left up to each individual it would be unbridled chaos. Obviously.

If the system has failed you (or, in this case, not even you but someone else that you feel the need to project your issues onto) then why are you still pointing your finger at the alledged rapist? Why not at the prosecutors or the investigators involved in the case? They failed you. Or maybe you think they did a good job? Then perhaps it was the intricacies of the law which failed you - harrass the legislature, make a case for the law being changed. That's justified.

But if all you're interested in is meteing out your own punishment for your own gratification then yes, it's completely unjustified. The guy isn't being punished for his crime, he's being punished for how you feel about it. As far as I'm aware, there's no law against hurting your feelings. And the moment that you decide to hand out your own punishment, you've overstepped your boundaries as a member of society. You become a criminal in your own right, and just as dangerous to the rest of us as the rapist. If you can't see that, or don't care about it, then you're already a danger to us and a lot closer to the rapist - you're both sociopaths.You both flaunt the rules of civilized conduct to get what you want, both spit in the face of social ethics for personal satisfaction.

Very well said.

my stupid comment was refering to your "smart" comment. read again. i dont wish you die.

I want to kick somebody's ass right now.

Who wants to fight me?

Alright. You're dead.

Bonasera: I believe in America. America has made my fortune. And I raised my daughter in the American fashion. I gave her freedom, but I taught her never to dishonor her family. She found a boyfriend; not an Italian. She went to the movies with him; she stayed out late. I didn't protest. Two months ago, he took her for a drive, with another boyfriend. They made her drink whiskey. And then they tried to take advantage of her. She resisted. She kept her honor. So they beat her, like an animal. When I went to the hospital, her nose was a'broken. Her jaw was a'shattered, held together by wire. She couldn't even weep because of the pain. But I wept. Why did I weep? She was the light of my life beautiful girl. Now she will never be beautiful again. I went to the police, like a good American. These two boys were brought to trial. The judge sentenced them to three years in prison - suspended sentence. Suspended sentence! They went free that very day! I stood in the courtroom like a fool. And those two bastards, they smiled at me. Then I said to my wife, for justice, we must go to Don Corleone.

Don Corleone: Why did you go to the police? Why didn't you come to me first?

Bonasera: What do you want of me? Tell me anything, but do what I beg you to do.

Don Corleone: What is that? [Bonasera whispers his request in the Don's ear] That I cannot do.

Bonasera: I will give you anything you ask.

Don Corleone: We've known each other many years, but this is the first time you ever came to me for counsel or for help. I can't remember the last time that you invited me to your house for a cup of coffee, even though my wife is godmother to your only child. But let's be frank here. You never wanted my friendship. And uh, you were afraid to be in my debt.

Bonasera: I didn't want to get into trouble.

Don Corleone: I understand. You found paradise in America, you had a good trade, you made a good living. The police protected you and there were courts of law. And you didn't need a friend like me. But uh, now you come to me and you say - 'Don Corleone, give me justice.' But you don't ask with respect. You don't offer friendship. You don't even think to call me Godfather. Instead, you come into my house on the day my daughter is to be married, and you, uh, ask me to do murder for money.

Bonasera: I ask you for justice.

Don Corleone: That is not justice. Your daughter is still alive.

Bonasera: Let them suffer then, as she suffers. How much shall I pay you?

Don Corleone: Bonasera, Bonasera. What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, then this scum that ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And if by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies. And then they would fear you.

Bonasera: Be my friend - - Godfather. [The Don shrugs. Bonasera bows toward the Don and kisses the Don's hand]

Don Corleone: Good. Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But uh, until that day - accept this justice as a gift on my daughter's wedding day.

Bonasera: Grazie, Godfather.

Don Corleone: Prego.

It's a legal system, not a justice system.

Politics is what is wrong with the justice system, and society in general. Everybody in power are distracted by thoughts of votes, friendly services, rich and powerful influences, budgets and what not. Even the most honest and self disiplined person is having a hard time doing their job under the present circumstances. They may fight it for a while, but in the end they all give in or lose their job.

It's called establishment, an establishment based on greed and ego. Justice comes second, or third.

Ewww....me like.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, we live in a system where it is difficult to obtain convictions, and where we would rather let a guilty man walk than an innocent man be imprinsoned.? All you need is one juror that disagees with the prosecution's case.? Furthermore, many times the people that serve on juries are less educated than others an can fall victim to unprofessional tactics.?


Don't ruin your life just to ruin his life.

i'm sorry but i'm with sin cut on this.
what if it was your mother or brother or wife/husband or child. and what if you'd see the fucker walk like nothing happened free because the legal system has failed. yes, maybe i would be in the same league with him if i'd beat the shit out of him but at least he'll stop doing what he's doing. but if he escapes once and walks free without any punishment he'll be more confident and he'll do it again because he knows he can.

yes, i should point my finger at the failed system but i shouldn't forget who did the wrong in the first place. pointing the finger at the authorities still won't punish the real guilty person.

I think you missed something. The guy has a long criminal record and they take his word over a 16 year old girl. Btw the  guy was 21 at that time.

Also they let the dog walk free after it had "bit" someone and it does it again.

I must just say; great work.

As for someone who wrote that my anger is directed in the wrong direction; sure I feel angry about this, even more angry that they let him walk the first time and now there's two girls with horrible memories. Most of all I feel disapointed that the authorities can't get justice done and take away the feeling of security from those girls. Do you really think they didn't have nightmares, or have the guts to walk down alone at the evening down an empty street. How do you think they react when they meet some guy? Do they fear the worst? Do they shut their social lives down?

And this all happened in a small town with only 20.000 of inhabitants.

If nothing else, think that it was your sister that was raped, or mother, hell, even your brother.

I'm also with supaplex with the fact that some things don't go unpunished, and with that the raper's confidence, if not totally shot, will be brought down a big notch. The guy won't boast about it to his friends anymore. He won't laugh how the "bitch" got what she deserved.

And 25 just call me a sociopath, I assume most of people who don't have the guts to take action do.

Was I a sociopath those times I interfered when a man was hitting his gf? Was I a sociopath when he had all ready hit her and I interfred and he hit me? After that I took him out by hitting him seven times to the head? Just enough of times to get him out of the fight. And while doing this, it could've been me who got beat up. So what?

Would you have just called the cops?
Do you think they would've got there in time?

What about when a guy had forced himself to kiss a girl and had put his hand under the girl shirt, and she was crying. Most of the people just walked by and I still don't understand why. I made him leave, not by pretty words, but with a promise he'll wake up in a hospital if he don't.

Now I might be a sociopath to you, but I have the thanks of all those three girls and one girl's bf saw me at the bar and bought me soome drinks as thanks.

And after all laws are made by people, and people make mistakes.

If a someone shoplifts and never gets caught.
and another guy gets caught everytime, which one do you think would shoplift more?

If every rapist would be beaten hospitalized by someone the raped girl knew, I think there would be a lesson learned.
Now if only we could hospitalize them BEFORE the act.

And there's a big difference about a guy raping a girl and someone beating someone for raping a girl.

If someone was trying to rape my gf and a someone would interfere, he would have my thanks.
If someone would've raped my gf and someone would get to the raper before me, again he would have my thanks.

Not all of your apples can grow up to be oranges. You're comparing two different things. The example you gave there is someone preventing a crime as it happens, that's commendable. Beating on some guy who may or may not have done something to someone else at some previous time isn't quite the same thing, is it?  Tell you what, you follow the guy around for the rest of your life and if he tries to rape someone you can go ahead and step in. Otherwise, we're taking away your superhero licence.

sin cut said the girl was very close to him. so he really did what she said. it wasn't like you said, "he may or may not", he rally did and walked free.

Not that it would change my stance on the issue either way, I'm still not going to leap to the conclusion that what he's saying is an entirely factual representation of the situation. He wasn't a witness to whatever happened and as he said, the girl is a friend of his and there's a lower standard of evidence required between friends.   That's all irrelevant though, I have no emotional stake in the story so I'm not inclined to get too involved in it beyond the hypothetical argument being played out.

haha  : ok:

But I can keep my batmobile anyway, right?

This is not about what someone might have done, since it's obvious he did, or is it just an coincidence he happens to rape another 16 year old girl about a month after?

Also this proves mine and supaplex's point and this could've been avoided if someone met him on an empty street. Hell. Let it even be a crowded one. I volunteer. And if he's such a man he rapes someone, surely he got the guts to step in a fight. No I don't think so either.

Beating someone in this situation is similar that he would've be fined or something from rape, and I don't think the sentence and the severity of the crime ever meets in these kind of circumstances. Think it as a penalty. And again think that the victim is someone you know and not a statistic.

Also if he's taught a lesson in pain and made clear that if he ever does it again makes, he got an another dose coming. Is that such a bad thing. And this is a situation law always fails, even if someone is found guilty. Or do you know any cases where the raper has got a just sentence? I don't.

In a matter of fact the guy should be raped with a batton, beaten and pissed on.

usually between friends there is a thing called trust. there would be no reason for her to lie if they are close friends.

and because nobody else saw it doesn't mean it didn't happen like you said. given that statement i could beat the shit out of him on a dark alley without any witnesses and it would mean it didn't happen because nobody saw it. so i won't be a sociopath and he won't be a rapist because nobody saw it. and all that remains is a girl with a trauma for the rest of her life scared to walk alone on a street because the people who were supposed to protect her were incapable of doing their job. :no:

Your argument is wrong from the ground up because it's based on a faulty assumption; A serial rapist (which is what you're presenting the guy as) is not going to think twice about committing a rape just because you assaulted him. Sure, if you turned up at the scene of every rape attempt and beat him up he'd probably quit but getting a beating at some later time isn't going to effect his behaviour, especially if his behaviour is habitual. He'd know that he got beaten up by some guy who knew a girl he raped, so he'd know that he could go rape a complete stranger to you and have no fear of reprisal from you. So your attempted justification crumbles under even a meek inspection.

Also; We define a "just" sentence by setting the sentencing parameters through legislature. If you disagree with the law, ask them to change it. If you feel strongly about it, lobby for them to change it. And if you feel passionate about it then run for office and try to change it yourself. But if all the action you intend to take is to sit there and complain about it, stop pretending to care so much. Harsh, but  fair.

I said no such thing. In fact, I explicitly said that I wasn't going to get involved in the intricacies of the story because I have no knowledge of it and no stake in it.  We're not even talking about the case, we're discussing sin's hypothetical connundrum.

i don't think sin cut presented him like a serial rapist, maybe i missed something. even if he was a serial rapist he became serial because nobody stopped him so his confidence grew and grew. if sometime someone steps up to him it could take away that confidence and he'll think twice before trying again. it will plant the seed of fear and doubt inside him, fear and doubt that he probably did not experience before and maybe he'll stop.
he could try and rape a total stranger but now he knows that he could get the same treatment like last time.

^ that statement solely implies that if he didn't see it he can't take action.

I don't think that rapists are spurred on by their deep inner feeling of self-confidence and empowerment, so I'm not sure what inspiring fear and doubt in someone who commits a power-and-gratification giving crime is going to achieve. I think that both of the statements you made there suggest an overly simplified view of both the nature of rape (or even crime in general) as well as cause and effect. As well as people in general. Seriously.

No, it implies that I'm not going to expect him to present us with all of the facts because there's no way that he can know them for sure, and that I'm not going to expect him to care about the facts because this happened to a friend of his so he's entitled to not care much about the facts.

For why he can't "take action," see; All of my other posts.

rapists are not spurred on by their confidence. but as they continue to do it and every time they get away with it they won't stop. it's like finding a magic formula. but if someone steps in he might think twice.

maybe he doesn't know all the facts but if a close friend comes to you and says: "somebody raped me" i don't think you'd start asking for too much detail. but i'm confident that wasn't the solely thing sin cut based his decision on.

Then explain why rapists can be caught, go to prison, end up in maximum-maximum security because the other inmates beat the crap out of them, do fifteen years inside and then rape again as soon as they get out of prison. THey didn't get away with it, someone stepped in. They went to prison. They got their beatings. And they rape again. How does that fit into your world view?

Which is why I said that I don't expect him to, and why I said that was justified. This is a non-argument, so stop bringing it up. I have no interest in debating either the facts behind the story or sin's perspective. That's his prerogative, and none of my/your/our business.

so let's not send rapists to prison anymore because they might get out and do it again.
i should let him walk away based on that? i'm sorry but i couldn't do that.

No, I think you'll find that my official stance is; Let's send them to prison and keep them there. That's where they tend to do the least damage. If guilty men are being acquitted, let's raise the standards of investigation so that we get more convictions. And if they aren't staying in prison long enough, let's change the law so that longer sentences are mandatory. I think that's a good platform.

And, side note; Let's not run around being vigilanttes. There's no point in going to prison yourself because you beat on a rapist (who will still be on the outside, having fun). That makes no sense. 

Now that sure would make my world a happier place, send 'em to prison, have them beat up, have them be someone's prison bitch, not THERE's some justice served right there!

But just make them be there for ten years.

As for one other thing, isn't it a fact that rapist seldom go after their sex-drive, but the need to prove themselves and overpower someone. They need their dose of power. And isn't it just that, you power someone down and stick your dick in that poor girl and enjoy the sobbing.

Sorry, I just can't let anything like this slide.
If my friend comes to me and says "A friend of mine was raped last night, I know who did it, let's go and have a chat will we?" I would say I'm in without thinking twice.

So correct me if I'm wrong, when a raper rapes someone, 'cos he want's to feel he got power or any sick need he needs to satisfy, now if I'd take them power from him and make him beg me to stop and make clear I'll be sticking in town for a while. Now, you see, it ain't that bad, my fist'll be my tools and him begging me to stop will be the happy ending.

As a fact the girls little brother was beaten by that guy and his friends when on his way from school, because she pressed charges.

That's true. I'd love them to have longer sentences.

But that doesn't change the orginal topic of unjustice and that fucker walking free.

Anyway I'll check how this thread does later, I need to go and do some last minute tinkering on my breaks before doing some xmas time visits.

Well, as far as Bronsonesque macho posturing goes, C+. But you flunk Badass Theory, "Hulk SMASH!" is so 40 years ago.  And if you don't intend to think twice, why aren't we hearing your victory cry yet? Seems to me that you've already thought once (technically) so why haven't you followed through?


Just for fun; How old are you sin? Same question to suitor #2, supaplex.

i agree with you on the "let's keep them there" stance as you can read on my first or second post in the thread. i wouldn't mind if he'd go to prison for a long long time.
i said i agree with beating him up because sin cut said he walked free.

to answer the age question, i'm 22. maybe you'll say i'm young and i'll grow up up and change my views, but, for now, i live in a country where for the right amount of money you can do what the hell you want and walk free. hopefully that will change. so i'm sorry if i think that taking the matter in my own hands could solve something but that's how i think.

Well, I wasn't going to bag on you for your age ( I'm only in my mid-twenties so I'm hardly able to loft that over you) I'm just trying to understand your perspective a little better. It just seems to me that both you and sin have a very narrow view of this particular situation, one that I can't really fathom.

could you be more specific about the narrow view please?

since I havent found him yet.

and for the record I'm 24.

How old are you?

Second question, would you do nothing in a case like this?