Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Hadn't seen it yet...  Here's the excerpt:

On those who say the 2006 version of Guns N' Roses isn't the real thing: "You know, you've got Slash and Duff doing Stone Temple Pilots songs with Weiland (in Velvet Revolver). They can't do 'Welcome to the Jungle' because he can't sing it. Let's be honest. Then, you've got Axl doing 'Sweet Child o' Mine' and 'Rocket Queen' with some other dudes. I'd rather see Axl singing Guns N' Roses songs than Slash doing Stone Temple Pilots songs. Nobody can sing 'Paradise City' like Axl Rose."

And here's the link to the full article:  http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/16123665.htm

he stated a fact and his own opinion.

fact being weiland can't sing jungle, he's admitted it himself.

he hardly went out insulting them

Just the usuall crap you'd expect from bach...

I love Bas, but he doesn't really have a point here.

...actually, I think he does make a great point here.  Just my opinion. 

Sure he does. ?People bitch that the new lineup is...well.. new. ?Fact remains that the new lineup is playing the songs people want to hear. ?People want to hear Slash and Duff doing it, but they're off with Scotty baby playing STP songs instead, because their vocalist can't pull off Axl songs. For a vocalist, I don't understand what's so hard about Jungle. ?

Baz is just jealous he got rejected.   Why would he even bring this up otherwise?

Baz really needs to get over the VR vs GNR thing already. ?::)

I like Baz but he is kind of sounding like a jealous ex-wife when he talks about stuff like this. Although I might be bitter too if I was rejected for a gig that was my last shot at ever being a relevant rock musician again. Having to suck up to Axl so he will let him open for him must get a little old after a while.

HOw does Sebastian sing with Axl's dick in his mouth?

Funny, I thought they were off doing VR songs with Scott.  Duff & Slash aren't in Guns N' Roses or Stone Temple Pilots.... talking about the songs they play from either band's catalogue in comparison to GNR is pointless.  Baz pushing GNR vs VR like any other stupid message board poster...

i'm not a "professional" vocalist or any thing but when i hear "Welcome to the Jungle" i can sing along with Axl pretty good (i think) so.......whats so hard? in WttJ you dont have to hold a note as long as you do when you sing Paradise City.


ohh and G'n'R > VR.  :yes:

one of the hard things is to hold the note as long as you scream at the top of your lungs not singing in your room.. and yeah gnr are superior vr

lets hold judgement on that until we hear chinese dem. (if we hear it)

You wouldnt be saying that if he said the opposite

Im still waiting to hear Bach's songs he wrote with VR. Thought he was going to release them on his site? So i guess they werent any good. Oh well, Bas sucks then.

Its obvious that Bach has a deep interest in being attached to Axl, which is fine, but it also explains statements such as this.

Yep you're absolutely right and you know why?, because it would be unusual for him to say that  ::)

Let's refrain from the age old comparisons, stay on topic please.

Baz has got his head up Axl's ass, we all know this much.  Funny how he doesnt' want to see Slash doing a part that is below what he could write, but he'd let someone that can't quite do Slash justice play his parts, just because the singer is the same.  Baz is a moron sometimes.   :yes:

what he says is just common sense, no need to be an intellectual to admit it.

What seems stupid to me is that.. its not like VR is TRYING to be GNR. Thats the freaking point.

Yeah Baz they aren't playing WTTJ... are they Guns N' Roses? Did they every claim to be? No.

They had the balls to try something new and not rely on the old hits (*cough* Axl)

I like New GNR more than I like VR.. but come on.. he just sounds jealous.

It's just a stupid comparison. VR are their own band so what does it matter if Scott can sing certain GNR tunes?

yes, a stupid comparison, even the name Velvet Revolver doesn't evoque Guns N'Roses at all.  :hihi:

I love Baz, he's an amazing frontman and one of the best singers around, one of my 3 all time favourites (Axl, Plant and him), but Sebastian has the habit to suck the dick which's the closest to him.  :peace:

#1)  When will he go away?

#2) I don't love VR, but I would'nt call them " Slash doing STP "

#3)  This man is WAY too involved with what is going on with GNR these days

Baz is totally right. Scott's a really crappy singer and VR one of the most boring bands this century has seen.

Hmm how about some negative karma for you then?  :beer:

For stating his opinion?

If he called himself VRSucks and only posted in the VR section about how much they suck, you'd have a point.




/jarmo

So why do people posting their negative opninions in the guns section get negative karma?

Because they do it over and over?

well This guy has got a habit of saying how much vr sucks.....


*edit: Nevermind Jarmo I made a mistake, thought this was someone else, I hate people who use the same avatar? :hihi:
feel free to delete these posts.

i like VR better than the new gnr at the moment

Bach is still bitter about not getting the job as VR lead singer, and kissing Axl's rear in the process.  VR rocks!

Yeah because you know dont you. I think Bach is perfectly happy with the situation he is in now by the sounds of him every night when ive heard him playing

So why did he even bring up Velvet Revolver in the conversation?  Didnt he call them the world's biggest band when he was trying out for them?

I bet if Bach got the lead singer position with VR, he would be saying the exact opposite.  "Axl is out there playing November Rain with a bunch of hired musicians, no one can play the GN'R solos like Slash.  I thank god for Slash & Duff picking me to front their band."

All it means is that Bach's opinion on the subject is worthless.  ::)

This is absolutely positively perfectly said -  The truth

Sebastian use to be a great singer and one of the best. but from what I have heard of him lately he just screams now, what happened to the singing bach?


VR would be nothing with Sebastian Bach cause he cant write songs.

Scott has a great voice and owns Bach in every category except screaming.

Yeah, he seems happy now because he went from being an irrelevant has-been to being able to ride Axl's coattails for a little while. Opening for Guns was a good opportunity for him, but at the end of the day, it's not the same as fronting a band with other superstar musicians.? He will go back to being an irrelevant has-been when this tour is over. So, yeah, it's possible he is bitter because he had a chance to be relevant again but wasn't deemed good enough.

because Scott can ?  :hihi:

he is an OK singer, not original at all but OK, but i was never impressed by his songs.
in STP or VR.

at least, with Baz VR could be a lot more fun to listen.

DEN look at the records my friend.


Scott has written so many number  1 hits I cant even count them on my fingers bro.


CB was an amazing record.

Name one song Bach ever wrote that was any good?

If u check the credits, Sabo and Bolan wrote most of Skid Row's songs.

It was probably the interviewer who brought vr up in the first place....

sure Baz is not Bob Dylan.
but Scott never impressed me.
i remember when STP emerged, i used to listen soundgarden, temple of the dog, nirvana,
pearl jam, alice in chains, all these good bands with a strong identity.

STP was just a second zone band, with no real identity.
they picked here and there some ideas of these bands, but it wasn't exciting.
and i feel the same for VR : pretty normal, he's the leader with slash.

the choice of the singer was crucial for VR. and i continue to think it wasn't the better choice.

if Mike Patton said yes to Slash, Velvet Revolver would be the best actual band in rock music.

what does Mike Patton have to do with Sebastian Bach?

Maybe... MAYBE you could compare "Core" to all the other grunge bands of the early 90s, but STP changed their music so much on each album I don't know how you could just write them off.

I will say this, if they had picked any other singer, I don't think they would be making a second album now.  Scott definetaly brought in more fans than he turned away.

I hate this Mike Patton bullshit

If he is so great, why the fuck isnt he famous right now?  No one knows this guy, he may be a great musician,singer etc but what memorable song has he left that will be heard 20 years from now?

Just cause some dude has a cult hardcore following doesnt mean VR would be an awesome band right now. Truth is they may be a good CULT band but they wouldnt be the mainstrem success they are right now without Scott.

What has Bach really done to get this "privilege", except from sucking off MTV, Axl Rose and sang a bunch of songs written ready for him?(oh yeah, Damnocracy!)

And he dares to take a punch on Weiland, when infact he hasn't been able to hold a note since 87?

Dude, I literally just "laughed out loud" here at work when I read that... hahahahaha.

Bach is a total washed up 80's douche... Did anyone see him in supergroup? ::)? This isn't the first time he has dumped on VR since Axl took him under his wing.

that's why i said = no personality.

for the Mike Patton part, you don't have to be "famous" to be amazing.
you don't have to sell one billion record to be a great artist.
it doesn't mean anything.
look at all the shit in the US charts, timberlake doesn't even exist to me.
it's soup.

to stay in the topic, Baz didn't take a shot at Slash & Duff, to me.

Not sayin Patton isnt a great vocalist/musician etc


But VR are a mainstream band. With Patton they wouldn't be a mainstream band in my opinion.

Scott was the only vo calist that could've helped make VR as big as they are.

maybe thats why Bach cant sing that well anymore???

If he is so great, why the fuck isnt he famous right now? 

I think weve gone through this before, but I think youre implication that only famous artists can be great is obviously nonsense.  With that said, Mike Patton appears to avoid fame by choice (this is based on what Ive read about him, Ive only heard his work with Faith No More).


"Epic."

Yeah, "Epic", "Diggin' The Grave", The "Easy Like Sunday Morning" rendition, ...

To be honest, I think FNM were actually bigger then STP here in Belgium, back in the day. I know Epic is still played at parties at times here, but can't remember when was the last time I've actually heard an STP song being played (except for Plush, maybe...).

That said, I don't think MP's timbre fits VR's music, so...

Im not slammin the guy, I am sayin that VR would not be as big as they are right now if they had Patton Instead of Weiland.

Better? to each his own, that strictly opinion.


When I listen to "Epic" I heara 3rd Rate Anthony Kiedis wanna be.? Sorry...........

One of his three greatest artistic moments is a freakin Commodores Cover?


Thanks for making my point.

a LOT better than weiland  : ok:
he doesn't just scream, he actually sounded awsome singing when i saw him at MSG


you're right.. they didn't play jungle.. but they did play its so easy though... why that instead of some other song that requires a bit of a range? hmmmmm  ::)


recording hits doesn't constitute as being a good songwriter.. britney spears recorded plenty of hits but i wouldn't call "hit me baby one more time" genius song writing. one of my favorite VR tunes is suckertrain blues but half the goddamn song makes no sense at all.. its fun as hell to listen to though  :)


baz can sing like a mother fucker, man.. i dunno what you're talking about
and btw... its  SAVAGE ANIMAL!!!!!  :rofl: :rofl:


ps: i don't mean to attack anybody's views here.. its all tongue n cheek here, folks  :peace:

 :beer:

When i saw VR they did 2 STP songs and 2 GnR songs. Scott pulled them off well. Of course he can't sing Jungle and SCOM, he doesn't have that kind of voice.

I just think Baz wishes he would've gotten the gig instead of Scott. We all know after the GnR tour is over, it's back to playing dives for bitch-boy bach.

So playing to 25,000 people at the bang your head festival is "playing dives"?  If that's the case what do you call the 5-10000 people vr were playing to on their last north american tour?  ::)

i didnt know STP had any number 1's?

So you think comparing a festival to a VR concert is fair?  Why dont you make a more honest comparison: the Bang Your Head festival and Live 8, for example. 

Live 8 is a little different there dude....

It's a festival though, hence his point. : ok:  How about 60,000 at download last year?

Less different than the comparison you made, dude.  : ok:

hmm.. VR doesn't play STP songs so baz can stfu

but new gnr does play a pretty badass jungle!

lol

vr does indeed play stp songs, sex type thing and at least 1 other......

I'm just wondering, is Mr. Bach a little disgruntled about being passed over as the lead singer for VR?

Modern and Mainstream Rock Charts.


From the boots I've heard of Bach, he doesnt have it like he use to.

Only reason GNR fans wanted Bach was so they could have the best of both worlds. they figure with Bach, Slash and Duff could still do a ton of GNR songs and u would still have Axl and his band doing GNR songs so u would get GNR from both directions.

It pisses people off that Slash and Duff are successful with a new style and a new singer cause in their dilluted minds, they feel that Axl WAS GNR and they try to minimize Slash and duff's contributions which is ridiculous.

"Plush" - #1 Mainstream Rock
"Vasoline" - #1 Mainstream Rock
"Interstate Love Song" - #1 Mainstream Rock
"Trippin On A Hole In A Paper Heart" - #1 Mainstream Rock
"Lady Picture Show" - #1 Mainstream Rock
"Big Bang Baby" - #1 Mainstream Rock

Purple - #1 Top 200 Albums

Why would people be pissed off ?

And I'm sorry but I don't see a new style in VR, considering that there's three ex-gunners in there, and one guy from STP. It's heavily GN'R oriented. No new style at all, just what Slash & Co wrote, with an input from Weiland.


Well Axl isn't GN'R all by himself but he sure is a huge part of it.

I don't mean to diss the ex-members here, but I don't see why someone who talks good about Axl (Baz) gets shit from people. he just said Weiland can't sing WTTJ. Well, he can't.

And even he's been playing It's So Easy, he isn't doing it quite good. The man is no Axl.

Axl may not be GN'R all by himself, but without his unique vocals, the magic is gone.? Weiland proves that everytime he opens his mouth and sings with VR.? :hihi:

Hearing Weiland trying to sing any GN'R song, hurts my ears, and makes me twitch a little.

Baz is right.?

A little? A lot I think. His comment is just plain stupid and way misplaced. But I think he's just trying to secure his income.....sort of like a prostitute, he'll do anything for money.

I mean, he's on the Gillmore Girls. Anyone who plays in a show like that loses any kind of credibility.

i'm sure he doesn't care since he tours with GNR.
he can't have a better publicity for his own album.

and if Axl sing a song on it, maybe it sells more than Libertad  :hihi:

American rock fans don't seem to realize that STP never was that huge in Europe. They had a few hits during the Core era, as far as I remember, but after that it was kinda silent.

Kinda like that English band, Bush, who were huge in America and pretty unknown in Europe....


I guess European rock fans were more into the British bands  (such as Blur, Oasis), when STP were at its peak in USA (mid-90s).



/jarmo

To be honest I had never even heard of Stone temple pilots before scott joined VR, I heard the name scott weiland before but had no idea that he was the singer for a band called stp? :-[

I haven't heard of any of these songs. Proves Jarmo's above point I think, with me being English.

To quote my opinion - Scott Weiland is average. Sure, the guy can sing and all but - hey- so can a thousand others. This man has no "x" factor. He cannot hold a candle to Axl Rose.

I agree with what Bach said. In fact, I'd rather see Axl and Seven Dwarves play live instead of VR.

Cheers.? :beer:

Maybe so, but like GNR, theyre an American band and America is the most important market.  They were easily one of the most successful bands of the 90s and they still get heavy airplay with virtually all their singles.

ahh so thats why americans always seem alot more into them. obviously being english i only thought they were really big on core.

Has no X-factor? So a guy who can write good songs on his own without a contribution of others and a guy who performs like Scott doesn't have the X-factor? Don't get me wrong, Axl is my all-time favourite singer, but Scott has that X-factor, too, but he's just not Axl.


Both of them would have problems singin' the other's songs.  :-X

No one here is trying to say Scott is better than Axl, cause he isnt, no contest in my opinion, Axl is on an entirely different level than SCott

If u say Scott doesnt have the X-Factor, then u have never seen him in concert.

Jarmo is the biggest Axl supporter I know but I think he would have to admit that Scott has the X Factor. Scott isnt nowhere as good as Axl but he is a damn good frontman.

HOWEVER:

Sebastian Bach is no where near SCott Weiland.

Bach can outscream Scott, Give the man a Kiss Comic Book and an Oreo, but Scott is ten times the Artist Bach is.

To say Slash and Duff are playing STp songs is ridiculous.

2 STP, 2 GNR for the hardcore fans and the rest is straight Contraband.

For VR to not play a couple songs from their collective past would be turning their backs on the fans who supported the previous works.

People for some reason think Bach is an amazing singer just cause he can scream... High octave range does not equal a greater singer.

Its the same argument with guitar players.

People have this belief that just cause a guy can sing more octaves that makes them a better singer and that is not true.

Just as people believe if a guy can play faster that makes him a better guitarist which once again is not true.

I prefer Scott Weiland's voice over Sebastian Bach's a million times over.

weilland has a different voice than axl, he's close to morrison, but from the live vr and stp stuff i've seen his voice doesnt hold up to the studio versions of his stuff...axl has a range and uses completely different tones and pitches on different songs, scott is more limited...baz is right, but im sure he still holds a grudge against vr for rejecting him and picking scott.

Baz is Axl's back up singer.  Just in case Axl happens. :-\

Regardless if Scott can sing WTTJ or not, its not cool for BAZ to be knocking Slash and Duff in any way.  Duff let Baz sing on his first solo album.  Listen to track 11 on "Believe in Me".  The song is called "Trouble".  It just sounds like any run of the mill big hair metal song.  Does anyone really think that this would have been a better sound for VR?  NOT.

If you think Baz is not an amazing singer then you need you're hearing checked. He don't just scream, listen to him sing "I remember you" now and you wll know the man CAN sing his ass off.

hey man, I don't think he was saying Baz can't sing ... he was saying Scott's a better vocalist....

Baz can sing.  But so can Scott. 

But we're all forgetting one thing ... 80% of Axl's live singing career has been pretty fucking bad... during the Illusions tour his vocal was horriffic in some places... a prime example is while they were on tour they did the Freddy Mercury tribute ... Axl sang We Will Rock You and Bohemian Rhapsody really badly ... and then during the 2001/2002 tour he was fucking awful.

BUT, people still seem to think it's cool to slag Scott and praise Axl.

Everyone has problems singing live sometimes.... but all three men, the subject of the argument (they've all been dragged in), are GREAT vocalists ...

Why argue over that?

This thread is getting dangerously close to DEAD HORSE/BAD OBSESSION territory.

Back on topic kids.

Thanks

Apparently the Deleo bros hated touring Europe for some reason.

Yes, or better yet, listen to him sing "Wasted Time".  I'd like to hear Weiland try to sing anywhere near as well as Bach.   :hihi:

something is being lost in translation here.

In music their are different vocal ranges.

The fact Bach can sing higher than Scott does not mean he can sing better.

Its not who is the highest singer wins contest, its who is the best singer.

Weiland's vocals in my opinion have more emotion and are better.

I can listen to Scott sing all day long, Bach gets on my n erves after about 5 songs.


Neither however are great live singers but not very many are great live singers.


Anyone ever heard Paul Stanley sing live?

This guy is more amazing live vocally than he is on CD.

U cant say that for many.

Bach on the live songs I have heard sounds decent on the Skid Row hits, the other songs...... blah, Scott also isnt the best live singer either but Scott is a much better entertainer as his moves make u feel it.

Scott has stage moves that rival Axl's and thats no bullshit.


Axl and Baz 07, u think anyone is gonna believe your opinion is unbiased? Check out your username :hihi:


If Bach was the singer of VR they would've been a joke. I dont see how that can be argued.

Well, well...A D post I agree with 100%.

^

maybe CD will come out this year.

If Booker agrees with me........ Anything after that becomes possible. :hihi:

Please ...


I thought he was amazing that night. Great great vocals.

Axl is up there with the all time greatest frontmen.

Scott and Sebastian aren't.


Both are great at what they do. In different ways.

I think Scott is more from the Jagger/Bowie school and Sebastian seems to be more from the heavy metal/hard rock school....

When Scott is strutting around the stage to get attention from the crowd, Sebastian tells them to fucking look at him!  :hihi:



Yes Booker, STP were a #1 band in America.

GN'R, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Metallica etc are/were American bands popular all over the globe.

I don't know what you were trying to prove with your list of #1 songs on the US charts. You need to realize many posters here aren't from America and they can't relate to you guys raving about the greatness of STP and their multiple #1 hits.





/jarmo

What Bach said is just like saying that water's wet...

And then he took a splash at Slash. :hihi:

Then perhaps you should look at the post again.  The poster I quoted asked (at least I interpreted it as a question) about STP having #1 songs.  I listed what songs those were.  I dont know what the confusion is. 

If were talking about an American band, I think its to be assumed that any #1s being discussed are in the United States.  I think non-Americans understand that, so again, I dont see what the confusion is. 

I dont think Baz was knocking Slash or Duff at all.   

All he really said was that, he rather see Gun n Roses than Velvet Revolver.

He also pretty much said that Axl has much more range than Scott.   Which is true.

Baz is a great front man...

So what ever..    This new GNR line up is so much better than Velvet Revolver.    It sounds like GNR.   Does Revolver sound anything like GNR.   No.

I watched Axl play here in Edmonton.   The cost of the show was 90 bucks.   Started at 8pm ended at 230am.    Now that is some bang for your buck.

I saw Velvet Revolver here last year.   Cost was 75 bucks.   Show was like 90 mins long..   A fucking joke.   

Cover bands sound more like the band itself than other bands do. VR don't wanna sound like GN'R and as you can see they play most of their own songs.  :yes:

I'm glad that GN'R played 6 and a half hours in Edmonton. I'm sure you didn't add the time the opening bands played and the hours of waiting for Axl. Cool you enjoyed the show!  :beer:

Thats a great compliment saying VR dont sound like GNR

THEY ARENT SUPPOSE TO! ;)

Man, are you stupid or what? That's why Guns N Roses is called Guns N Roses and Velvet Revolver is called Velvet Revolver. In your world 1 + 1 = 3 right?


Guns played a show of 6,5 hours? Again, WTF?

I saw Guns N Roses play and afterwards it felt like I just'd seen a good cover band who does not play the solo's as they were written. How long were GUns' shows when they just released AFD? You rarguments are plain stupid probably just as you are.....so just leave the VR section of you don't like them.

Both Guns n Roses and VR in the past few years have gotten mostly positive reviews for their shows, from fans and critics alike-both have their past brought up all the time-if Baz was in VR would he have refused to sing any GNR songs? I find that hard to believe-if VR didn't do any Guns songs, we would be hearing complaints about that-Baz was a little out of line in criticizing it-Scott's remarks are one thing, but he should leave Slash and Duff out of it-Slash has gone out of his way to say he hears Chinese Democracy is brilliant, Axl is brilliant-that's pretty stand up on his part-Velvet Revolver has a multi-platnium album and sucessful tour, something Baz could not do on his own-I like Baz, not a big fan of his music, but I love his enthusiasm, but lay off the cheap shots Baz-there were even rumors he had wanted to try out for Van Halen years ago-he would have sang all covers on that tour. GNR and Velvet Revolver forever-we have a great situation with both bands these days-why argue about it?

Hence the name Velvet revolver

Now, I'm sure you've got a brain somewhere why don't you try and use it the next time you respond to something? ::)

This thread is not about VR vs GNR, one more comparison reference and it's headed to Dead Horse.

Clear enough?

to those saying baz cannot sing, you are 100% WRONG.  i dont even care what argument u put up, hes one of the most talented singers ive ever heard, im so glad i got to see him live.

Woo you people take something so personally.

Here are the facts.  Neither band is a "Cover Band".  Guns N Roses play there own music and others and so does VR.  Bodies, etc...

All I said was that at least this Axl lead Guns N Roses sounds like Guns N Roses.  When VR plays gnr songs they sound nothing like what gnr sounds like, ok mabey Its So Easy...    But, you are right when you say that they shouldnt sound like GNR because they are a different band.  No shit...

I was just agreeing with what Baz stated.   Dont bash me, bash him..  Or just look in the mirror.

Oh ya.   Sorry about this.   Out of the 6 1/2 hrs of concert gnr played 2 1/2hrs.   pretty fucking good

When I saw VR they played at most 90 mins..  At most..    I know it was there first album, but how many albums have they put out between the lot of them??   A fucking lot.  So if you cant play more than 90mins, fuck..    I ont ever see them live again.     lol, ok i probably will, but i will expect a lot less that go around.

peace out mother fuckers

Relatively seen VR played more than GnR due to the fact that GnR have 5 albums worth of material and VR just 1. Since VR are a new band you can't count in their collective back catalogue.

SO again; your arguments are full of shite.

He couldnt be more wrong, VR are playing theyre own songs and a few oldies, they are not looking to flog a dead horse by playing the old gnr tunes,
Axlis doing what he wants to do and so are they, I just dont see how there is still so much bitterness between them all.... like a bunch of fucking 16 year old  girls

One albulm is better than some non-existant one : ok:

Oh it exists ... and when it comes out it will put VR to shame ... like seriously

You can suck that thumb after you take it out of your ass.

I will take gnr with there 5 albums and countless covers and there upcomming/never comming cd   anytime over
A band with 12 songs.......

Ya and from what it looks like, VR new album isnt going to be seeing the light, anytime soon.

How bout them apples.  Juicy...   Huh

Wait ... GnR and their 5 albums?

Sorry ... wait ...

I really like the new GnR... but they only have ... hang on.  0 albums.

The 5 albums you're talking about ... was the old GnR.

So, technically, you can't take the old albums into account ...

You're using the albums that 3 members from Velvet Revolver had a HUGE impact on ... and NONE of the new GnR guys did.

But I'm not starting an argument ... just saying that your argument is quite poor.

Sorry chief but they are still the Gunners, no matter how many people leave.
Kiss was still Kiss when Ace Frehley and Peter Criss pissed off.
Guns over Velvet any day of the week.

No... I'm not disputing that they're IN the band ...

But they have NO connection to the old material other than the name "Guns N' Roses"....

Can you dispute that?

Axl is a pretty good connection IMO.  : ok:

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7397/democracyiscomingyr5.png)

sebastian is a jackass, no doubt about it.