Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I guess I'm not the only one who noticed that everytime certain things are posted or in certain discussions a new band member is being criticised here, the threads magically dissapear. They are not even locked or moved, they just get deleted. Just like that, without any explanation. I respect the rules and I like how this place is run, but I'm sorry - the current situatin is a mess and this kind of censorship is bullshit. My advice would be to either shut down the board or just make some new rules, but don't do it like it's done right now because it ruins the board. There is absolutely no point posting or even reading here anymore when every 3rd discussion is gone before you can even read alll the replies. And I'm not talking about rumours, dead horses or off topics. I'm talking about general GN'R discussions, music, members, normal stuff without insults or anything.

I would like to know everyone's opinion on that, and I would like to ask the the mods to speak out and explain. Not because you have to, but because it would be nice. Nice in sense of good behaviour towards all fans, guests and registered members of this board. Thank you.

But I guess this thread is just going to dissapear too, huh?

 :no:

Even if this isn't deleted, it'll be moved to the admin. section.

Yeah, read the "Administration/Feedback" section first, or at least post this there.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?board=10.0

I don't agree with all of the moving/delete of threads, but someone with as many posts as you should know what'll happen with this one.

yep... it blows.... I start to type and after 10 mins of typing some paragraph with thoughts and points and discussions i go to hit post and magicly some dipshit mod has hit the delete key..... ? ?

This board is not here so that some of you can post stuff like "We don't need Bumblefoot in the band" day after day after day.

He's in the band, he's a great guy, deal with it.


Think about it this way: Would you tell a band member to his face that he's not needed in the band?

If the answer is "no", why do you need to post it then?



/jarmo

I'd tell him straight in the face that I don't like his playing. So what? It is no insult, and it has nothing to do with him as a person. My point is that I don't come here for 100+ threads about fantasy release dates or discussing Axl's clothes. I come here to talk about the music and the artists who create the music. And Ron is one of them. People don't even get a chance to explore this guy as an artist, get to know more about him or just express how much they like his playing so they can direct attention on him (that's all positive things!!!) - they can't because ALL the threads about him suddenly dissapeared. But it wasn't only the threads about Ron. Anyway, the current kind of censorship is not too cool.

I would tell it if that would be the situation. But umm.. now when Bumble is in the band, people can't tell their opinions of him on this board? Even if they tell it with a nice mature way? 'Cause I've noticed that it's impossible to say anything bad about this band on this board..

But anyway, it's better to have tight rules than no rules at all.

The answer is 'yes'.

I love every person in the band, but if I didn't, I woulnd't mind telling him.
I'm sure none of them would give a fuck, though.

If a band member is not loved by everyone, why the hell do we (you) have to hide it from him?
Should he be able to ckeck the forum and read only good things about him that would blow his ego?
Don't you think that once he's checking the forum he wants to know how the fans really feel?
Or is this a place where every member of the band can come and get the impression that the whole world worships him?
This is utopical.

And these come from a poster who worships everyone in the band right now.

BTW, the deleted thread was a good one, the discussion was interesting, no insults, no rule breaking.

Maybe you should update the rules in the forum.
Make a 'no posting of negative opinions' rule, and I'm sure HTGTH will be the official GnR forum.
With 100 members or so.

It won't be official no matter how much you wish for it to be made official.


2, 100 or 10000 members, I don't care.

As long as the posters are here for the right reasons.




/jarmo

I dont give a damn about the forum's status.
It doesn't concern me and there's nothing in for me personally whether I post or not in an official forum.
I'm here because I love GnR and want to discuss GnR with other people who share the same interest.
Is this on your 'right reasons' list?

Personally I don't like Finck's guitar-playing. I have nothing against that guy on a personal level. I just don't like how he plays guitar. I don't think he is in the same league as Slash. There should be no problem to say this kind of thing.

That doesn't make me a lesser GN'R fan. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact...

Depends on what you want to discuss.

How much the band sucks, how you want Slash/Buckethead back, how nobody likes the shows because the setlist is always the same, how Axl's an asshole, how wrong it is to start after 11PM etc.... Those discussions would be wrong reasons to come here.




/jarmo

^ I have never expressed any of those statements in any of my posts. Never. But that's just me.

I respect those who have a different opinion.
Slashead, for example. He sure is a fan.
He wants Slash back, I don't.
Does this make him not welcome here?


If everybody had the same, good opinion on the band/guitarists/setlist, then... what would be there to discuss?

I respect the opinions of others as well. But I don't need to be exposed to the same few people expressing their opinions in every possible thread.

Everybody is welcome if they understand what this board is about.

It's not about trying to bring other fans who are positive down with your complaints, it's not about slagging the band members off because you wish for a reunion and it's not for spreading bullshit rumors about the band.




/jarmo

...I post too much about Finck, don't I?  :hihi:

So you basically can't say it if you don't like the setlists? Or if Finck would screw up a solo very badly, you can't say you didn't like it?

The setlist rocks and Finck doesn't really screw his solos up that much.   

i dont care if someone wants slash back, whatever thats their opinion.  but to come to a GNR board in 2006 day after day to express that and try to piss off those of us who do support this band is trolling.   nobody likes a troll.   I would understand if it was 1996, but come on..

I guess you didn't get it. Were you at the show or are you just gonna whine about it in every thread about every show?

Some people like to "review" shows based on reading the setlist and watching 30 second clips on Youtube.



/jarmo

I went to a show and wrote that I was a little bummed out that people around me were sitting and leaving towards the end of the night and that ruined my enjoyment a little bit.  I said it was a shame (and confusing) because the band was good... and my posts got deleted?

The GN'R section of this board is pretty worthless...  At least the Jungle exists where you can actually express your opinion without being grouped into a certain "category" of GN'R poster.

Are you a troll for replying to the subject of a thread? If people repeats themselves just delete their post or ban them. The rest of us should be allowed to discuss both sides of every subject. With the exception of the obvious bullshit of course. If it is like Merck claimed, that every opinion, positive or negative, should be encouraged, as long as it didn't create "chaos and lies". Do discussion on a new players abillities and current merit create lies and chaos? I don't think it does, in the real world.


Everything points to this being an attempt from GN'R to squash all unwanted talk about the band on the biggest message board. It's just being called something else.

Very good #1000 post, totally agreed.  :yes:

no.. go look at slashead's posts.  that is what i'm talking about.

That is what I meant by "clear some things up for us". But I guess clarification goes a long way these days.

In other words, this is no longer a GNR forum - a place for open discussion about GNR. It's become the GNR worship board. Anyone with a differing opinion need not apply.

So what is this board about?

This?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=39914.0

Or this?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=36485.0

Or that?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=38925.0

Finally, a haven for me to discuss this on the board.

like my other thread stated (and feel free to merge it here or whatever you feel), i said that i really did not like the idea of "better" being in a harley davidson commercial, i felt it really did not go with the feeling behind the song and what the song is truly about.

now i do not see AT ALL how this merits a post deletion... i came here with the understanding that this was a well managed place where i could voice my opinions on things gnr related... and better being misused in a motorcycle was my opinion.

now i agree, very thoroughly, that there are assholes here who need to be bitch slapped, but what i said was not an attack, it more like honesty.

There are posters on this forum that do nothing but complain and it gets old but there are some posters on here like Eazy E, Myself, Conny etc etc who have been here for years and years and ?I dont agree with everything Axl does and when he does something I dont agree with, Im not gonna kiss his ass and act like its OK just because he or Merck or whoever may read this forum.

So If I post something negative, Im not a GNR hater or a SLash lover, or a whatever, I just try to be honest. I think Axl has way too many YES men around him and he doesnt have anyone to be straight and tell his ass the truth on certain things.

I have Axl Tattooed on my forearm for Christs Sake but Im not gonna sit here and do nothing but talk about how great everything is if I dont feel it isnt or if I think Axl is fucking up.

Doesnt make me any less of a GNR fan.

So when Eazy makes a post about an observation at a concert, I dont think its right for that post to get deleted. If its the truth, its the truth.

Exactly, D. Truly objective people aren't always going to praise the band and everything they do. A person who has a negative opinion isn't necessarily a debbie downer.  Take the Mysteron thread for example. Yeah, it was turning "negative" but it wasn't because the posters on that thread were out to drag everyone down. It's because they were looking at the situation realistically and realized that there is a very small chance that CD will be out this year. Some were expressing their frustrations over that because it it stinks being a loyal fan only to be let down yet again. That's not being negative for the sake of being negative and it's not an attempt to drag everyone down. It's just a bucnh of fans expressing their honest feelings when they decided to look at the situation objectively. It's not fair to treat these kind of opinions like they are an albatross around GNR fandom. It's the blindly optimistic fans that make us look bad.

Yes I saw them twice, and the band is fucking amazing. I personally haven't complained for years about Finck or Tommy or setlists or anything.. but if I think that the setlists sucks, can I say it on this board? Or can I say if Axl sounded bad at last nights concert?

If I think something's wrong with the band, of course I'd like to talk about it. But on this board it's called bitching/whining/Slash loving/etc.. And now you all wonder why I'm here.

Let down yet again? This is only because your believed RUMORS in the past. This is the first time we've really been told the record is going to be released. If it doesn't happen, it's not the end of the world.

We found out a lot this year, didn't we? Much more than in years past. To me, if you truly understand what it was like to be loyal to a band, you would realize regardless of whether or not the record comes out in 2006, it was the BEST year in the history of the new guns, and it proved once and for all that this is a band to be reckoned with.

How you can call all of this a let down confuses me. Because the record might not come out in 2006? I'm sorry, no matter how you spin it, that's just whining.


Conny, wow, you found 3 posts that aren't earth shattering and are kind of pointless. Just to point out, one of those threads is an Axl's clothes thread, which had to be created because there was about 7 popping up each week. I think it was left there in effect to stop people from creating new ones.

You all seem to think the board is "Censored" or that you have to kiss the bands ass all the time. To me, that doesn't seem to be the case. The staff is merely trying to keep things organized and readable, because the site gets tons of visits from diehard and new fans alike. People like mikegiuliana posting that he heard the show sucked or something, when he wasn't there, that stuff shouldn't be left up. It's not because it's negative, it's because it isn't true.

I'm sure, sometimes in the shuffle, a post might get deleted when it really shouldn't have been. But anyone who browses this board all day and sees all the ridiculous threads that pop up and get deleted (i think there was one about how axl might spend thanksgiving!) understands that this is just a natural side effect of an effectively run board.

All I know is that when I go to another board, I won't name them, but another big board, I don't even bother reading the posts in the threads. It's usually posts of 10 words or less, totally pointless crap, smilies, huge signatures, a complete waste of server space. If that is your idea of a forum, then fucking go there.

Personally, I don't give a fuck if you thought Axl's voice sounded bad last night, or if you think the setlist sucked. Do you realize how utterly pointless a post about the setlist sucking is? It's more pointless than a thread about Axls clothes. At least if someone reads the Axls clothes thread, they might get some sort of information about it, learn about a new brand of clothing or something. Reading your fucking 3,000 post about how the setlist sucks will serve no purpose, just a waste of fucking time. I admit Axls Clothes thread is rather insignificant, but I would hope you understand my point, which is:

Quality over quantity.

We can dig up interviews as early as 98 where Axl said CD this year or that year so dont start with that bullshit.

We were told

Dont believe rumors, only believe when management or Axl says it.

Well they have now said it and if CD doesnt come out in 06, they owe us an explanation.

Im sick of this a band doesnt owe its fans anything bullshit.

No, I don't think you will dig up too many interviews from Axl, considering he did the Kurt Loder interview in 1999, and the RS article, and that's pretty much it from that time.

And, it's not bullshit, but the band doesn't owe you anything. Why you can't seem to get that into your head, I'll never understand. Just because you are a fan of a band, it doesn't mean they owe you shit. What makes you think they do just baffles me.

If you want to talk about things he said hinting at the release, how about things he said hinting at the release being a ways off:

"Soon is not the word" - 2002

"which... god willing we will finish" - 2001

In the 1999 Kurt Loder interview, he just says he hopes to have it done by a certain time, he doesn't say it will be.

I mean we could sit an argue these small points to death....... but why bother?

You obviously think Guns owes you something, because you have a void in your life that you need to fill with it.

Until you get over that, your opinion pretty much sounds like Charlie Browns mother to most everyone intelligent enough to understand how the world works.

Bands owe their fans everything.


Without the fans, bands are NOTHING.


I have no void that GNR can fill, but they cant continuously mislead and treat their fans like shit.

I mean how immature is it to revoke discussions on a fucking message board.

Who are they Joseph Stalin?

I think someone who sits in their apartment and plays music to 0 fans would find that comment rather offensive.

It's not about the fans, it's about the music. If people happen to like it, so be it.

But that doesn't mean you make it for them. You make it for youself.

And dude, you fucking compare the htgth mods to joseph stalin? Who are you, Cartman?

Who or where would Axl be without the fans that have supported him?

He'd be in Indiana doing God knows what or dead.

If he wants to retire and never release another album, that is fine, that is great but dont continuously hang something out in front of people's noses and then pull it back over and over and over.

I have no problem with the wait, I have always enjoyed it, but to say people are wrong for getting pissed off is ridiculous.

Axl had a golden opportunity to set the world on fire, he has so much momentum and so much going for him but he has continuously dropped the ball over and over.

I am sorry if his payroll of YES Men dont have the balls to tell him that but he needs to get his head on straight and make a decision.

Yes I am goin through with this

Or NO I dont want to.

Either is fine but it isnt cool to continously disappoint the fanbase that made him who he is.

He is gonna fuck around until he has no fans left to alienate if he isnt careful.



Dont give me this bullshit about someone in their apartment playin to 0 fans.

I am that guy that plays for myself and I write songs for myself but If I am ever gonna be somebody guess what? I have to have fans who love what I do and I have to do my best to keep them happy.

Comparing Axl to a start up Indy musician is ridiculous and it isnt even the same thing.

It also isnt fair to the new band who have the biggest shoes in the world to try and fill and its only more difficult to do that when they have to play the majority of the original bands songs.


I dont know what planet u are from, but If u think music is only music no big deal than I feel extremely sorry for u that u have never made a strong connection to something.

GNR to a whole lot of people, myself included is way more than just a band or some collection of songs.

any relationship has to have some mutual respect and as GNR fans we get kicked over and over and it isnt cool.

IF CD doesnt come out in 06, I will still be here, I will still be a GNR fan but dont fuckin tell me I am not allowed to get pissed off.

If you look at the situation from an economic point of view, a band owes nothing to the fans (and don't get picky here about a the cancelled shows and how you had to pay money for planetickets.. i'm talking albums here).

From that perspective a band offers out a product, and if the consumer thinks he/she needs/wants the product, they can go and buy the product for themselves. It's a simple transaction. Just because a band releases a product 10 years ago doesn't mean it makes them owe the fans something in the future. It really is the band's call.

Now in the sense that if the band doesn't deliver anything that they've said they will, it will ofcourse narrow the amount of people interested in theproduct. The only people they owe a record is the recording company. And I'm pretty sure that they will hold on to get their own.

It might feel disappointing if an album doesn't come out when it has been scheduled, but to say that they owe it to the fans is just IMO incorrect.

And now about GN'R. The band is on tour at the moment. If anyone says that they have/had no intention to release the album this year, it's just wrong. It, from no stand point, makes any sense not to release it when promised. Like said. They'd only be hurting the future sales.

But I need to get going now. I'll write something more if something half intelligent comes to mind later.

But why is negativity forbidden here?

I am sticking up for people on the forum


Like i have stated, I can wait 5 more years, The wait doesnt bother me, I have plenty of other bands that keep me fulfilled.

I will always say a band owes their fans, No one can ever change my mind on that.

Like I said, If Axl wanted to retire and never release CD that is fine, he wouldnt owe us anything, but the fact that there have been so many false starts and he has gotten fans hopes up, I think that qualifies as owing your fans.

Its like any other relationship.

If u come home and your wife comes home and their is no dinner on the table, no big deal

If u call her at work and tell her u are cooking a special dinner for her and u are gonna go out afterwards etc and then she gets home and nothing is cooked and u are off at the bar with your friends, U are damn right she has a right to be pissed.


This is my point. ?This forum is turning into Fox News. U agree with everything or you are a hater or not a true fan or u get banned or negative karma or posts and threads deleted.

People have a right to be concerned, they have the right to question whatever they see fit until axl delivers what he has promised.


For them to invoke some sort of power onto the greatest internet forum on the net that censors what we can and cant talk about is wrong.

We as fans deserve Better.

I dont know many fanbases that would be as loyal as we have been.

For that I can not answer, for I have only deleted posts that are posted simply to start shit, or if they are by posters that have never had anything positive to say or post negative stuff about a few subjects beaten to death.

Some of the subjects that I think should most definately _not_ be an issue that causes this much chaos on a fan board are:

1) band members: The band is this band because... It is this band. You either like it or you don't. The members are a part of the band and it is not worth discussing "what if [blank] was no more / brourght back / to join GN'R".

2) The setlists are going to be what they are going to be. And the people at the shows should get to decide whether a show is good or not. I won't take a stand on the issue of negative reviews being removed since I haven't removed a single review that was well though through and had only constructive critisism. After all, if for example a long time poster from here goes to a show and feels that his experience was not up to his hopes (which, him or her being a fan are propably pretty high), I will not delete the post *just because*.. No show by anyone will _ever_ be that good that 100,0% of the people will feel that it was flawless for them.

3) The release date is of course a hot topic since we were told that the album was coming out this year, and the number of tuesdays is lower every week. And I do understand that it pisses people off if by the end of this year there wouldn't be an album. But until we know the reasons of a possible delay, it'll only create more speculation. Especially when the only given 'release date' was that "you might walk into a store one day and see it on the shelf" and "there are xx tuesdays left in the year". And since we have obtained the status that the board communicates with the management/ the band, the board is sometimes referred to as being "semi-official". And since we've taken a pretty controlled line over the past few years, it can be taken by some members of the media (members who like to start shit), that anything that is posted over here is almost the official statement of the fanbase. So I understand the decision to delete some of the posts that are posted only to start chaos among the fanbase.

The third point is debatable and I won't be able to convince all the people of it. Especially the "sorry, but I just needed to vent!!!? :rant: "-people. But at the moment it is my pov.

Also I would like to state that this is not the board's official opinion on the matter. It is only mine, and might differ from the official one. My actions also might not represent my opinions in some cases (they have for now), but I only work here. I'm not the one running the board. And if I ever thought that I could do a better job at running a board and didn't like it here... well.. we all know what I could do then. The same goes to everyone else posting here.

First of all, like it or not, the band owes you nothing. Nothing.

I don't give a shit what you think. They owe you nothing, except what you paid for.


You're really funny.


Comparing Axl to a start up indy musician seems ridiculous to you but comparing him to your wife seems logical?

 :rofl:

About the "censorship"...

We don't like negativity. Plain and simple.

We've always been like that.

One person may not think that a setlist is cool just cause he/she was expecting to hear more new songs, but you have to consider the impact of your statement on a board which is being read by 7.500 registered users and another who-knows-how-many unregistered users who are thinking of going to a show, but they'll think about it again if they read a "negative" post.

Now, about the "if I think Axl's wrong I'll say it in his face" thing.

You can play "tough guy" on a message board but I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of you, wouldn't have the balls to say anything in his face if you met him. Most of you would probably piss your pants and tell your friends for the next 12 years that you've met Axl Rose and he was cool to you, he shook your hand etc, etc...

Noone on this or any other board has any idea what's been going on between the record company, the band and the management these days.

The album could be on its way to the record stores.

I'd say, stop the bitching and wait until the end of the year.

IF by the end of the year, we have no album or no release date, and if it makes such a difference in your life, don't post on any board and show your frustration this way.

Now, you've seen how the board works. It won't change.

Even though I don't believe in advices anymore, cause I've been told that a smart one doesn't need the advice and the stupid one won't understand it, I will give you one.

If you don't like the way it works, stop posting. There are many other GN'R boards on the internet.

They won't "censor" you. Most of these boards have been advertising their "no censor" ways for the past 4-5 weeks.

Go there.

In case you don't want to leave this board, go by its rules and the way it works and all will be fine.

I've explained it a thousand times, but everyday there is a new thread about it on the board.

I'm seriously thinking of having a post, ready somewhere on my pc and copy-paste it whenever it's needed, which in our case is every few hours.

Why does it feel like everybody are talking around each other on these subjects? I can understand most of the deleting on this board, but there are a few things I feel gets lost in the same shuffle. When this is brought up it's either I didn't delete it, and I don't know who or the general explainations of Skeba and Christos in this thread. There are certainly threads and subjects that does not apply to your descriptions that are deleted. What about those?

I can't help to notice that the moderating is a lot tighter when Jarmo is fully present. Seems like there are differences in what he thinks should go, and what the rest of you moderators removes.

Skeba, nice answer actually : ok:

I guess this is being discussed so much because the current lineup doesn't have a single release under its belt. Once the album gets out, I think people will be more accepting of the band as a whole.

the entire main board, and EVERY topic is about bullshit rumors....   

now the mods are into thought control?

your funny...

coz they think they are going to get some special prize for buying into the "I love Axl and swing from his hairry nuts" attitude..

there are other boards... better boards that have just as many users..

Me neither. I'm getting tired of people who repeat the same things all the time. If they have a point I think it's been made a long time ago so they can stop.


I'm sorry to write this but this is what I feel. I'm on this board since 2004. I registered as soon as I had the Internet at home. Why ? because I support the band, and like all the other fans, I'm looking for anything real about Chinese Democracy.

So in my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong, this board and the whole HTGTH site is dedicated to GN'R.

But here's the thing : We're in 2006 and the band doesn't have members named Slash, Duff, etc. anymore. I know that it's because of these guys and Axl that we have the music we have today. But they are not in the band anymore. So I visit everyday what's, in my opinion, the best board dedicated to GN'R in 2006 -> HTGTH.

What I want to say is that the fact that there's a VR section, another dedicated to past members etc., it doesn't help in the confusion around the band.

In fact, I respect the way this board is runned. I'd just like to know if what Jarmo means by "what this board is about".

Is it about the GN'R we follow now, or is it about GN'R from 85 'till now ?

In any cases, since the HTGTH crew works with GN'R management, and gives 100% acurate informations about the band, I'm wondering if a Velvet Revolver section is needed.

I understand why the Dead Horse one, but IMO a VR one is just confusing.

Anyway, don't get this wrong please.

Here's the door then. Feel free to leave.

(http://www.the-mathom-house.com/sitebuilder/images/bag-end-door-cropped-307x324.jpg)

It will lead you to various places full of ... well, 'posts'.

like this one -> www.mygnr.com and others from the same vein.

You just can't stop, can you ?

When I read between the lines, It seems like you're saying that if someone prefers Finck in the band, he's a lesser GN'R fan or something like that ...

No

Yeah, that's why I like this place.. it's not mygnr. But sometimes mods really go too far, but it's a small price for having this thing going.

thats exactly what i was talking about earlier.  he pulls that shit all the time.  he tries to be subtle, but he's not.

and i couldn't agree more with the post above this one..  i agree, the vr board causes confusion and imo is not appropiate to have on a true Guns N' Roses board for GNR 2006.    I just keep those sections hidden  :hihi:  maybe someday i wont have to.  :peace:

no no you're reading too far into it, he expressed his opinion about slash and not saying ANYTHING hateful towards finck... im sure he can express why he likes slash better in a normal and intresting statement that does not resort to "SLASH IS DA MAN LOL FCUK FINK!?!?!!!"... give us a chance and just get rid of the assholes when they pop up.

He's a troll..  he doesn't like the band, he's only here to talk about Slash and how bad this band sucks without him.

oh wow! what a creative post you have made!! you posted a picture of a door!!!!  "Feel Free to leave?" WTF is that supposed to mean? you think i dont know how to type a url into my internet browser??

your such a smart poster arent you!!!! : ok:

Well, since you think there are better boards out there (wich is what you wrote), you can go. Why staying here if it sucks ?

Feel free to leave means : If you don't like it here then get the fuck out.

Go there then. There are boards with more members then we have. Go there!

Please!

Maybe then I don't have to ban you for your useless spamming of this board.





I think you're confusing us with some other boards.




You people keep whining about how horrible this place is, how we're idiots and so on. Yet you keep coming back, even after you've been banned you keep trying to come back. Why?

Why not leave and never look back?



/jarmo

I really wonder if THIS is what Axl or the band wants? Fans arguing with each other and calling names, Mods saying "they don't owe you shit bla bla..."

Yeah, jarmo said something like "would you tell it to him in face that he doesn't belong to GN'R?"
Well, I wonder if Axl / band member would tell a fan to hes/her face that "I don't owe you shit!"?

Maybe they would? But eventually it's about respect, and it's not respectful from management to say shit like that. What is it good for?
"Yeah, but someone said they didn't like the show, so we decided to censor him/say that we don't owe him anything" It can't fucking work like that?
(I understand deleting posts like "Slash is 10^43255 better than robin...")

They should've just let this forum alone and let the mods decide what is wrong and what is right. This is a UNOFFICIAL forum, right?
Definitely not to register here and bash fans for saying "negative" things.

Maybe if something gets discussed over and over again they should try to do something about it. (ie. being late) instead of coming here and tell jarmo to delete all post including "late", "delay" and "sucks"

Whatever, everything was way better before the management came in the ring.

who says management hs anything to do with it....would management want a vr section on board? :P

When was that?

See, you don't know when they started helping out.

Just because you became aware of it recently, doesn't mean it started recently.



/jarmo

So why this guy haven't been kicked out yet?

I respect you for running this board the way that you do. ?People are always going to bitch about it, because they know it will get a response. ?If I've read these sort of posts once, I've read them a thousand times and you always say the same thing. ?Say it once, lock the thread and sticky it... and delete the posts/threads you don't want.

Whatever management's involvement is with this site isn't my business, but they formed a relationship with you based on the way you do things. ?I wouldn't change anything to maintain that relationship and I don't believe you have.

People spend a lot of time complaining that this site was never like this before. ?Aside from a short period in '02, it was never like this before and mods are only taking actions that best suit the requirements of the posting fanbase. ?If they didn't move/delete threads, this place would be an inconceivable madhouse.

You've done a good job, but consider one thing. ?People will bitch as long as they're getting a response.. cut off your reactions and the reactions of mods (slip into radio silence, if you will, regarding complaints) and they will either a) stop bitching or b) leave the forum. ?That's what you tell them to do anyway... so why not?

Keep up the good work boss.

BluesGNR

They might have helped earlier, but I aimed a the recent timeframe when their involvement started to really show.
btw. what did you mean by saying HTGTH will never be official? If this site was THE GN'R forum the "censorship" would be more rational. imo

What does it mean?

It means it'll still be a fan run site, just like it's been since 1996.


Some peope seem to get confused about this. They think a fan site is supposed to be a certain way.

For example, some of you think a fan site means it's ok to attack the band and its members or that it's ok to make up stupid rumors about them to draw attention to yourself.



/jarmo

I think people expect a fan site to have no affiliation with management, whatever perks or problems that may bring. Not that it's my opinion that HTGTH should disassociate with management...just I think that's the cause of confusion.

But when all's said and done, HTGTH is different from other boards, partly because of this relationship with management and the band. And there's lots of other entirely fan-oriented and less strictly moderated boards, so why not use HTGTH for your news and another for discussion if the censorship here bothers you?

As far as I know, many fan sites do get support by the artists.

Most artists know how important the fan sites are.


It just seems like a bunch of people who mainly post on certain other GN'R sites like to start shit by coming here to whine and whine on other boards about what we do.

I've seen the topics on other boards. It's amusing to read the hate threads by people who didn't follow our rules and got banned. Then they attack me for being a dictator.

We have rules, and if you don't follow them, be prepared to suffer the consequences. A lot of people get away with all kinds of stuff on other boards and think they'll do the same here.



/jarmo

Have you noticed that some people have the date they were banned from HTGTH as their sig in other forums? It's becoming some sort of lame status symbol...kind of like ASBOs in the UK.  ::)

Fan sites are often artist supported/affiliated as you say. I should have said forums, which are rarely so.

Slash's wife has posted at the Slash Forum and certain VR members have posted at the VR forum.

Both are run by fans.

So they do acknowledge them being there.




/jarmo

Yes, it's another let down. Fans were let down in 2002 when the Chinese Democracy tour got their hopes up only to end up with a bunch of cancelled dates and years of silence. Fans were let down each and every time Tommy & Dizzy opened their mouths about a release date over the years only to get nothing but more silence. Fans were let down in 04 when Rock In Rio was cancelled and Buckethead left the band. Fans were let down last year when Merck claimed 05 would be the year of GNR only to get nothing. So, yes it is a let down if CD is nowhere in sight after Axl and Merck made claims that it would be out in 06.

I agree, this year was a big step in the world of GNR which had been filled with nothing but disappointment, but that doesn't mean fans should ignore another disappointment just because they took one little step in the right direction. Fans have every right to feel disappointment and to complain that they are getting nothing but a greatest hits set on the Chinese Democracy Tour. It's starting to look like this is just a cash grab and they were using the CD name to promote the cash grab.

Forgive me if what I say is nonsensical, but your statement implies that GNR members post here.

As far as I know, no GN'R members post here.

People around the band have posted though.


I was just pointing out that artists do acknowledge fan run forums too.



/jarmo

I would think the statement from Merck and statement from Axl through Merck would be evidence enough that artists acknowledge fan forums.  I remember Prince used to acknowledge them quite a bit, by shutting them down via threats of legal action. :P

It's not that people think a fan site should be run a certain way. It's that this site had always been run a certain way until recently. The long time members of this board don't understand the sudden change in attitude, especially when threads and posts are constantly deleted without explanation. It just appears that management are using their affiliation with you to control the image presented on this board since it is the most visible GNR site.

Bumblefoot signed up here 2 years before he became a member in GNR. Physchic!  :hihi:

He's also signed up to your site, do you know what his username is?

Well it aint that hard to figure out.  :D

Maybe it's because in the past most posters here were actually supportive and understood what this place is for, but now that the band is more active we get a bunch of people trying to ruin it for other fans by posting negative crap and lies about the band just to look cool?

You might not realize this, but people use fan sites for "research" when they write articles. What kind of articles do you think they'll write if all they see is complaints from the band's fans?


In the past we probably allowed more speculation. Now there's no need to speculate since we can find out the truth.




/jarmo

Has anyone considered that maybe it is our behavior that is changing and not the moderators? ?

With the crap hitting the fan lately, it seems they probably have 10 times more work than they previously had just due to the activity of the band and the upcoming album. ?People are arguing like crazy in every thread (beyond the call of healthy debate) even about things that in the past would have not caused argument.

Tensions are flaring, a lot of the members are short on patience. ?I personally don't find it fun to have to wade through a ton of anger to find some news. ?

That's a total copout. This site has always had posters with an assortment of? views on the band. There has always been all sorts of debates and opinions. It wasn't all supportive and positive. All opinions were always welcome as long as posters didn't attack one another. That has obviously changed.

Why do you claim that people are just trying to ruin someone else's fun? A person who expresses their opinion isn't out to ruin anything for anyone else. They are just expressing their honest views. If someone else can't handle the not so positive views then that is on them - not the person expressing their views.

That is unfortunate that journalists might use this site as a basis for their articles but why should be be censored because someone is too irresponsible to do their jobs properly?



That is not entirely true. For example, the whole CD situation is still not clear. Merck and Axl said in the past it will be out in 06. Rumors still persist that it will be out in 06, yet as each week passes it looks more and more unlikely that it will be out. So is it coming out this year or not? Management won't clear it up so it leaves us to speculate.

I think most of us understand that you will delete bullshit rumours and that there are certain posters who ruin every thread with the same complaints... but there's more than that going on lately IMO.

The "truth" came about in the form of the Rolling Stone article, the Harley ad, the concerts & the Del James article... all of which we weren't allowed to talk about.  What's the big deal about having one 30 page thread on each of those things instead of 50,000 "WHY WAS MY THREAD DELETED?" threads?  My personal issue with the concert threads was that I had posts deleted just because I mentioned that I was a little upset that people around me were sitting/leaving early... it may have seemed I was trashing the show at a quick glance and so they got deleted.  I certainly wasn't writing anything that "researchers" would use in articles to trash the band.

Sorry Jarmo, but if we knew anything we wouldn?t be speculating in the first place. We all want to here ?Chinese Democracy?, and until we actually see it we'll continue guessing, and after it comes out it'll be about what?s next, surely when there?s over 7000 registered members here you can't expect any less than at least 60% of them to make stuff up, because the rest of us don't know any better and will just eat it up. A lot of the nonsense people have posted here has turned out to be closer to the truth than what someone like Mysteron has ever posted.

My biggest complaint will always be the "We arent owed anything bullshit"


Like I said, If Axl never did the VMA's and the 02 tour..... If he hadnt stated early this spring that CD would be out by the end 0f 06, if he hadnt started this Tour and said it will be out one tuesday before the end of the year, then FINE, he doesnt owe us anything


But to say what he has said, I think that now puts CD in the we are owed it category.


I will state this again. I DONT CARE IF IT COMES OUT IN 06 or not, Im still gonna be here and support the band HOWEVER I can totally 100 percent understand people that do get pissed off and I think its wrong to censor people's frustrations as long as they are doing it in an honest way.

I just get pissed off when some Fuck who joins the board a few months ago and hasnt been here waiting through all we have waited through has the audacity to act like we shouldnt get upset if 06 ends without CD.


This whole "We would be scared to tell Axl to his face"

I wouldnt curse him out. But if he asked my opinion Id tell him anything I have ever said here.

I dont think Axl realizes the ramifications of what he is trying to do.

He is replacing a legendary band and trying to start anew.

That is fine but he has to realize that to win over casual fans who think what he has done is sacreligious, that he is gonna have to do more than play Appetite for Destruction Live.  Cause honestly it makes the new band look like a cover band.

There is no guitar player alive that the majority of fans are gonna accept over Slash. Having the guitarist do nothing but play Slash's material certainly isnt gonna change their opinions.

Only by playing the awesome new songs, will they be able to change fans opinions.

I know the new band is great and I have said on here since day 1 that I believe Chinese Democracy can be better than Appetite.  I just think it is time for Axl to get on with it.

He has already wasted the prime years of his career, I just dont want him to waste anymore of it.


To the MOD Christos.


I dont know if u were implying that I should leave this forum but I think its really hilarious u tryin to act all hard on here.  U keep that attitude, that if u have anything negative to say u can leave bullshit, then there would be about 5 people on here.

U make me laugh tryin to act like I should leave this place.


If u want me to leave we should have a fuckin election on here.

U vs Me


Let the posters decide who stays and who goes.

If I am outvoted, I will delete my account.
If u are outvoted, U resign from being a mod



Got the balls for it?

 

I'm with you on this, D!  : ok:



Duel, yay!  :D

I think Christos would win.

I think Christos would ban.

Why can't you see that when there's nothing going on, we can understand certain negativity among the fans, but when things are happening, the same people are still whining?

It's obvious some of these fans will never be happy.




Well, we had one poster saying he was at a show that he didn't enjoy it. So he spent the time trying to make some other fan's show miserable.

That's the kind of "fans" we don't want here.

If you have a concert thread with 10 people saying it was an awesome show, and one guy who didn't attend saying it sucked, don't you think it's a pretty pointless post?

Or having people who actually go to the shows complain about how late it started? Or complaining that it sucks because certain members quit the band. If you don't like those things, don't fucking go. Save your money.



It's not just that.

It's also the fact that fans read things on boards and it gets spread around the Internet until somebody actually thinks it's the truth.

It's like the leaks, we can't stop them, but we can make sure this place isn't helping them being spread by allowing links to them.





Until we're told otherwise, the plan is still 2006.

Wait and see. What's there to speculate about?

Does every single little detail have to be overanalyzed?

Sometimes I wonder if we have a board full of lawyers, some days I think we have a board full of marketing people etc.

Funny how many people here are experts at law, marketing, concert promotion and various other jobs associated with the music business.






I'm a huge fan. Come play in my home town so I can trash your equipment.

You owe me!

Sign a guitar and send it to me so I can sell it on Ebay. I think you owe me that too!  ::)


I went to Portland, ME and had a show cancelled. Do I feel like the band owes me?

Fuck no.






What a fucking joke.

You're the guy who invited a bunch of Bon Jovi fans to come here to vote for your dear Jon.


You have no say in who gets to be a mod and who doesn't.

You know, simply because we don't vote for mods. If we did, you might be one.





/jarmo

Well, I don't don't expect a personal "thank you for being a GN'R fan and coming to HTGTH" letter from anyone. But I have not come to this place for years to now be told to shut up and not talk about the fucking lead guitar player in Guns n' Roses unless it's positive feedback.

I do not accept that everyone who has something negative to say about going on late, playing the same songs over and over again or Ron / Robin being sloppy guitar players is bashed as "Slash lover", "living in the past" or to be forming his opinion on setlists and fucking videoclips for fucks sake! That is not the truth and you know it.

Why not just close the "VR" and "Ex Members" section if you don't need any Slash or Buckethead fans around here, but don't treat these people with the same arrogance you accuse them for.

Close the sections, make new rules. Or else just live with negative comments and show some respect for the opposition as long as they show respect and don't insult anyone. Negative feedback alone is not an insult! Oh wait, maybe you don't need to close these "living in the past" sections because IZZY IS PLAYING SHOWS WITH GUNS!!! And that's great!

So what if Axl decides to give Bumble the foot and build Buckethead a chicken coop with a Michael Jackson action figure on stage? You gonna turn around like a flag in the wind then and shut everyone up who says Bumblefoot is the best guitar player Guns ever had?

I respect Jarmo for all the work he put into this, but just because he is running the board doesn't mean all his decisions are always right and should not be questioned or criticised. Yeah I know, if I don't like it there is the door. But you need to realise that in the end, the hypocracy will turn what once was the best fan board into a fucking joke.

The sections are there so that the Slash fans can keep their discussions in that section. Same goes for Buckethead.

We don't deny the contributions of the past members.

It's 2006, those guys aren't in the band anymore. So keep the discussions about your love for them in the above mentioned sections.



Well, too bad. But it's fucking boring as hell to have to deal with pages and pages of whining from people who weren't at the shows.


You can disagree with what I do, and you have for a long time, but the truth is, I do what I feel is right. It's always been like that.




/jarmo

What a fuckin' waste of time.

(http://www.smilies-world.de/smilies/smilies_Picture/finger_Smilies/31.gif)

Is there a moral to this story, cause I think that was pointless.

Yea the moral is that he can go feel "cool" on another forum now claiming the mods drove him out ::)

BUH BYE, I say! ;D

We didn't delete or lock this thread.

I tried explaining to him, and yet it's a waste of his time because I wouldn't do what he wants me to.


Oh yeah...




/jarmo

i hate it when a good website gose "pc" and starts deleting shit, first Blabbermouth now heretodaygonetohell tomarow the world THIS SUCKS. I came here because Blabbermouth banned me for telling it like it is so i say fuck them thats why i came here and i like it but i hope that we don't get censored here like you do when your at Blabbermouth.

PS.
dose any one know what i'm talking about with the whole being censored thing at Blabbermouth?

When I got the pleasure of meeting Jarmo for a few seconds at the New Jersey show, I asked him how it felt to have such a big board, and to have it run for 10 years. He said it was really cool, but he didn't feel like he really "made it big" yet because no one had ever compared his site to Blabbermouth.

 :rofl:

I find it hard to believe something called "Blabbermouth" censors anyone :hihi:

I never go there so I don't know, I'm just sayin....

I for one, am glad to have this bb as a "Sanctuary" of sorts. And I feel sorry for Jarmo. I just clicked his most recent posts and it seems like he spent all day defending himself and his board. I hope you enjoyed your vacation! :)

By the way, is your real name Jarmo or is that an internet name? I came back from MSG and found out that you were the one I talked to allot that evening... but I don't remember you saying your name was Jarmo. (Or maybe I forgot to ask?  :-\ ) Anyway... it was nice meeting you, and thanks for the well-moderated bb.

Edward ("Chip")

You think I care THAT much about you?

I don't give a fuck if you leave or if you stay.

You're THAT important to me.

Oh, and you don't need balls for a "fuckin" election..

All you need is 2 stupid people. And I'm not a candidate...  : ok:


Wow.... Deja vu...

I hope you won't register AGAIN to delete your account AGAIN...

Woah..........look at all this drama.

Yeah.. I mean it's good to open your mouth if something's bothering here, but this all goes too far.

I think I introduced myself at some point.

I remember you not being 100% sober at the end of the night....  :hihi:


/jarmo

never. not in a million years. most posters hate that guy. hes an arrogant little man with admin privilages, and nothing to say or add to any thread other than to remind you of "the rules"  he seriously needs a life or something better to occupy his time than to hand out on the GnR board and enforce rules..   Does he ever add anything to any thread about GnR?  nope... just wants to tell you the rules.

He's a moderator, that's one of the things moderators do.

If you people would actually respect the rules, there would be no need for him to remind you of the rules.




/jarmo

I wasnt talking about me "respecting the rules"  as far as i know i havent broke them....  he dones need to remind me of anything...

Why do have -3 karma?

You just have no clue abour Christos... you see, I don' t need to get into anyone's ass & I am not anyone's advocate, but jarmo, Christos & anythinggoes are the most honest, sincere & cool people & GN'R fans I ever met, even if it was for only few minutes. So go figure... you have just no clue.

You havent broken any rules huh? Well you just insulted one of the mods 2 posts up, so now do you still think you havent broken any rules?  ::)

oh yeah? how did i "inuslt him"

expalin it.

I'll expalin it. I'll expalin it reel good... :P Calling someone "an arrogant little man" who "seriously needs a life" is a bit of an insult to me.

 :rofl:

You've been registered on this board for  :o 13 days  :o, and you know what I've been doing for the past 5 years? This deserves a good laugh.

You have 18 posts per day and I hardly have 4 per day. You do understand that quantity and quality are 2 different things... Right?

And most posters hate me? Wow... 

Let's say it's true (even though it's a very strong word, I'd rarely use for another person):

On a board of 7500 posters, Let's suppose 60% hates me (most you said)... They hate someone they've never met in real life, cause he's doing what he's supposed to do on a board as a moderator, which is moderate.

And you think that I need a life?

Guess again...

P.S.: I didn't give you your latest karma...

this isnt my first screen name.

thats an insult to you?

drama queen.

So, for how long have you been a member of this board?

Ask yourself; would a poster of any worth or merit need a second, let alone multiple, ones?

Unless you keep the same name, of course.

(disclaimer)

, though of course that does not apply to everybody who keeps their name.

(disclaimer the second)

'Tis not that horrible an insult, no. Was just trying to help.

oh god you guys are crazy

just chill out

yes, jarmo isn't all right - in an ethic point of view - deleting all negative threads, cause people might have something negative to say on objective things and that's their point of view.
i went to a lot of shows, i have opinions.
again repeating over and over that axl is an asshole is stupid
on the other hand interestings comments, may they be negative, are welcomed i guess.

now it's his board. he does what he wants
you can leave, there a lot of other good boards.

and christos is a very nice guy. he needs to gain some weight tho, he's skin n bones !!!

since 2001.  you know what. its not even worth fighting with everyone.  delete threads, keep threads, whatever.

sorry for insulting you. it is your board.  keep or delete whatever you want. its not even worth fighting about.  Its just a pain in the fucking ass when you are typing up a longer reply or you spend 5 or 10 mins typing and then hit "post" and the thread is magicly gone..


peace.

This is the best insult you could pm me? You really are pathetic...

That's pretty fucking stupid.  I mean, Newfoundlanders know a lot of things.  And we don't all play with the "eskimos".  CB, this guy's not even worth the time.

I just find it funny that that was all he could come up with...

Yeah he could've at least made a welfare joke or something.   :hihi:

if you don't believe me go there and see if your a member any more and you go to post before you do theres a sign above the post box thing that says " by posting on Blabbermouth you agree to not post any homophobic, obsene, racist, ect" or somthing like that. After they did that Blabbermouth got gay quick and i got banned three weeks later.

 >:( and i was pissed off too because the shit i said wasn't even that bad. O-well fuck them, i'm here, they're queer, and Jarmo you got a hell of a site man. Nice job. ;)

eh there's already too much shit going on here for mods to keep track of...

Having just caught up on this thread, I have to question your raising this particular point in this reply. You mentioned in another thread that you saw 6 other shows in the US, so I would think this point redundant. Some people have to save to afford to get to one gig. Missing 1 of the 7 gigs you were lucky enough to attend is a vastly different scenario, and I hope you sympathise with those fans who lost their only chance on this tour, after making plans, travelling etc.

For the record, I think the band ultimately handled this cancellation very well, and with a lot of respect and consideration for those who were due to attend.

In case you didn't notice, the majority of the pissed off fans weren't even in Portland, ME.

Yet, it seems like they have every right to complain, but since I got to see other shows I shouldn't say anything? Even after having travelled from New Jersey to Portland by Greyhound...

All I'm saying is that some of the biggest complainers weren't affected one bit of the cancelled gig and yet they complained a lot more than I did....



/jarmo

That may be true for some fans but why is it wrong for the fans to complain? Why do you feel the need to whitewash everything and expect people to just be happy no matter what?? I mean, I understand that it is annoying if people are complaining just for the sake of complaining, but there have been a lot of valid complaints that are being deleted. Why?



No, I don't think it is a pointless post if that was his honest opinion. Everyone has different views and he should be able to share them as long as he isn't attacking another member. Are you actually trying to say that a person shouldn't bother posting their opinion if they are in the minority? Would you feel the same way if the majority of the posters said the show sucked but one person said it was great?

I agree with your second point, but I do think complaining about the late shows are a semi-valid point, but that is another discussion.


That is an unfortunate part of the? internet and I don't blame you for trying to stop stupid rumors such as idiots who pretend to be insiders, but I? don't think this place should be censored because there are some idiots out there that don't know how to take these rumors with a grain of salt. It's certainly not fair to stop discussion of topics in the public domain (such as the RS article) just because a few fools can't help theirselves.




I agree that fans tend to overanalyze, but in this case it is pretty valid. It's not like it's January 1st and everyone is wondering if it will be out by Dec 31. The fact is that it is Nov 24 and there are only 5 Tuesdays left. It is impossible to release CD on 3 of those Tuesdays and the other 2 are a stretch. So it is only natural that the fans are going to start wondering because we were told one thing and it is looking highly unlikely that they will come through. Besides, it's not like they have failed us before.

It may seem funny that we have all these "experts" but with a site this popular it's not unusual that we would come across people with those occupations. Besides, it's not like we have anyone claiming to be a record company exec, just people who work at a music store. What's so unusual about that? A lot of things these people post are just common sense. Someone who claims there needs time for CD to be pressed, distributed, promoted, etc is just common sense. Those who believe it will show up any Tuesday out of the blue are just dreamers and not basing their thoughts in reality.

Valid complaints? I'd say the so called valid complaints are always about #1 the band going on "too late", #2 the setlists or #3 no release date yet.

There's not much we can do about those is there?

You can have a 500 page thread speculating about why they're not playing Crash Diet, but will they start playing it tonight even if we complain?



You can have ten positive reviews and one negative saying the show sucked because Slash wasn't there.

What do you think people replying to the posts will focus on?

So suddenly we have a thread about how Axl shouldn't use the name and we should have a reunion instead.


Or even without the Slash mention people will focus on the negativity and suddenly the thread is full of discussion about the one thing one guy complained about. The focus is suddenly on one negative thing that one personis complaining about instead of how great the actual show was according to everybody else.

I've seen so many "objective" reviews and as soon as I saw the username I knew what was coming. I didn't even have to read the post before I knew what kind of review was coming.

There's a lot of fans out there who claim to be objective, but they love nothing more than to put down the band. Because they think, some people who left the band about ten years ago, should be there today.

We're not here for those people. We're here for fans who are excited about the current band. Fans who are behind this band and support them.



Some of the "banned" topics contained information that wasn't meant to get out at that point. For example, turn on your TV and watch out for that HD commercial. Notice what song is playing in it....



/jarmo

what happens with those fans who greatly support the new band and still have something that they are disappointed in (i.e. - me).

and if one would ask me i say anything related to the setlist and late shows are immediatly shat on.  they're a waste and they've been discussed inside and out, those without question can go.

anything else that someone is disappointed in should depend on the situation, such as how it is worded and what the intentions are with the comment.

Thanks for your insight. You've been very knowledgable in the admin section today.
 :rofl:

Glad you get me drift..... :rofl:

looks like this thread died...

That's because it doesn't matter what is said, the mods are too busy playing defense.  So you have two options:

1. Leave

2. Bend Over

I answered, he didn't like the answer and deleted his account. Again.

I'm not gonna answer everybody in every single thread.

It's no use, you won't read the answers anyway. You just keep asking "why?".



You'll post stuff which are basically lies about the band and get upset when we remove them. How come?

More than on one occasion, removed threads have had multiple posters pointing out how absurd the "facts" in the articles were. Yet, some of you get upset when it's removed.






/jarmo

I don't understand why the Universal release date lists were deleted. Was that meant to be 'contained'?

I don't remember removing it, so I don't know.




One thread was removed because it went way off topic from facts to speculation. In it were comments by Mysteron.



/jarmo

I agree with the setlist, People shouldnt complain.

To us its the same setlist, but to people seeing the show it is exciting and new.

It took me awhile to realize that myself I cant lie.

The only complaint I've ever had is, I wish they would just play some Use Your Illusion songs.? If u are GUns N Roses, u should play stuff off more than just the Appetite album, a couple covers and 2 songs off the Illusions which are my Fav albums.

AFD has always only been my 3rd fav GNR cd, so to hear almost every song off it and only 4 off the Illusions....... I wont say disappoint cause its not that word, but to me it would great to hear Civil War or Yesterdays........

If they played a song like Estranged, I think that would win more "old' fans over.

also its their show, they can do anything they want, but when people complain about the solos, I can totally agree. And its not because its Robin,Richard and Bumble, I just personally hate solos spots. so i cant imagine 4 seperate.