Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I posted this in reaction to my guitarists girlfriend receiving Myspace messages about how stupid she is for going to the GNR show in a week or so. Thought I'd share it here:

People talking out their ass about things they know NOTHING about.

Let me give you an example. My friends and I are going to see Guns N' Roses at The Palace in a little over a week and we're excited about it. Lots of us have been posting bulletins and what not about it and getting ignorant replies such as "It's not the real GNR" and "Where's Slash?" and so on.

I generally try to keep my mouth shut because I am confident in the fact that I know more about music then most people I come in to contact with but at this point I've about goddamn had it. People that talk out their ass about Guns N' Roses are morons. None of them know anything about the history of the band, it's music or it's fan base.

Anyone who thinks Slash "is GNR" is flat out wrong. Slash (Duff, Matt, Steven and Gilby) for that matter wasn't even around for the beginning of this band. He very much contributed to the rise and legend of this band but he chose to go another route. That route has unfortunately for him, lead him to a half ass band with a half ass lead singer who put together a half ass album. Axl Rose cannot be blamed for other people choices or stupidity. He also can't be blamed for replacing people when they make those choices and carrying on with HIS band.

People who say that "Axl is living off the name" or "running the name into the ground" need to take a look at those Velvet Revolver CDs sitting at the record store with a sticker that reads "featuring former members of GUNS N' ROSES!!" or watch TV for 10 minutes and catch the complete waste of a VW commercial that Slash is involved with. Now who's living off or running the name into the ground.

I went to see the new members in 2002 with all sorts of skepticism. But since I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak, I thought I'd see for myself before passing judgement. Having seen this band twice (soon to be 3 times) I can speak in actual facts about their abilities and if they "are GNR". Let me make this 100% clear; this band IS Guns N' Roses. Until you have come fact to face with a man playing rhythm guitar as if his life depends on it as Richard Fortus does, or seen Robin Finck make his guitar cry every single note using his entire body to do so, or watched a music legend such as Tommy Stinson play bass and perform like he's 20 again just because he enjoys what he's doing that much, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I haven't even begun to speak about the man (Axl) himself and how much he out classes every other performer living today. It is beyond annoying to have uninformed, ignorant GNR "fans" sending others messages that not only try to take away from others enjoyment but are just plain stupid.

For all of you who disagree:

You should know Better.

^post of the week. : ok: :beer: I bet very few myspace dipshits responded to that bulletin.

I just posted it a minute ago. We'll see. I'd love to see what someone could possibly say to that.

i agree with you but you gotta understand that not everyone feels the same way

Seeing this band, listening to the new tracks, actually informing yourself before speaking I can deal with. If someone has done any or all of these things and has a different opinion I say "great"! I was speaking to and about people who have done none of these things and want to speak as of their opinion matters.

This is just word by word what I feel about the whole bitching thing about the name and all. I thank you very much russtcb for putting this out, in such good words.

This text should be sticked somewhere on the board. I sure as hell will keep it (if you're okay with that).

I have no problem with that whatsoever. Thank you for the kind words and I'm glad you agree.

i have a friend that i have begged to go see this lineup because he's still stuck with what gnr was in 1993, he won't go and bashes axl daily and that's cool, that's how he feels and i can't change it. he won't give them a chance and people like that you can't get thru too.  some people  are so close minded  :-\

Again, that's all fine and good but those folks really have no room to talk about anything to do with the band today if they won't get themselves educated on the subject.

Great POST!!!

One of the best posts ever!

A good post/blog/messege whatever.. but c'mon:

 ???  That's going a little too far for me..

Myspace bulletins are so annoying. If it doesn't come from a band it's just fills up a lot o space. So many opinions I delete friends that post too much crap

Having seen some of the greatest performs ever to grace a stage I feel I can make that claim and again; it's my opinion.

Ok, but I mean... Bono?! Hello.

I've seen U2. Twice. Once at the Silverdome on the Zoo TV tour when they were on the MTV Awards and once at The Palace on the first leg of the Zooropa tour. I've seen alot better performers then him and Axl happens to be one of them in my opinion.

Please move this argument to PM if you want. I don't want the point of the thread to be lost in an argument like this.

Nice... My girlfriend is going to school to become an RN and her Nursing Class go to the hospital twice a week.  Anyway, the last time she was there she told people she was going to see GN'R with me and she said that there were probably 15 people around (12 in her class I think) and EVERYONE was so jealous of her.  All they talked about was how they want to go and kept asking "Will you take me?" and all this other shit. She said it went on and on the whole day.

My point is that not everyone is negative about this band.  People that aren't even big fans of GN'R (my example above for instance) just hear the name and get excited.  There are a lot of shit holes on the other end though as well, which is what this thread is about.  I just wanted to give an example to show that not everyone is against this band.  Hell, not one person said anything negative to my gf about GN'R when she mentioned she was going to a concert.  It was only a small group of people but it's still nice to hear positve things about GN'R from people other than the hardcores, such as us.

I know exactly what you're talking about.  It's great that all of us on HTGTH have this outlet to vent on converse about the GnR World.  But there is nothing cooler than when someone out of the blue shows appreciation for the band.  I know of two instances of the top of my head where this has happened in the past two weeks...

One instance was when the district manager called me on my cellphone(I have the whole verizon ringback tone thing going on, and my ringback tone is Sweet Child O' Mine).  Well I didn't answer my phone in time, but on the end of the voicemail my manager said "...oh and by the way, awesome Guns N' Roses ringer".  So I found that funny and unexpected.

And then last week I had to pick up my uncle(who's 50 for reference) from a dentist visit, since he wasn't able to drive himself home.  Naturally, I had my iPod set on my GnR playlist, when Rocket Queen came on.  He said "I was just listening to this cd last week", and I went on to tell him that I was seeing them at the 1st Mariner Arena the following week, and his reply to that was "I hear that the new guys were killer when some execs from work went to see them in New York earlier this year".

Anyways, my point is, that seeing the crowd at the arena on monday and hearing things like this are always reassuring.  I know people on here feel like it's the end of the world if they don't get a release date at the end of the day.  But no matter what anyone says, I know 99% of us will have Chinese Democracy in our cd players and/or on our iPod, no matter if it's out this year or not.

Very articulate and good read!  : ok:

And just imagine what a little bit of advertising would do for ticket sales. This is a powerful band, and with ChinDem in 2007, the tours that year will be historic in my oppinion.

U are the type of GNR fan that drives me crazy.


Look New GNR are a fabulous band dont get me wrong, CD is gonna be one of the greatest albums ever.

But when u have to slag off the Old bandmembers to try and make these guys look better, u look like an Axl nuttswinger who doesnt know much about the band.



I hate to break the news to u dude but without Slash and Izzy as well as Axl,Duff and steven, we wouldnt have guns n roses.


so for people to claim Axl is GNR, they are doing so out of ignorance.

Axl didnt write those songs by himself, the very songs these new members are currently living off of.

I realize u didnt say this but a lot of people think this way and its just wrong.


slash also participated in a multi platinum grammy winning new band with a great lead singer in scott weiland.


i support new gnr but i dont support fans who try and act like the old band were meaningless.

its ridiculous to come on here and try to discredit the original band members who riffs and solos these new guys are imitating.



until CD comes out, this is not GNR, its Axl and hired musicians.

That might be true, but Axl is to thank for there BEING a Gn'R right now, so 10, 15, 40 and 50 year old people can see them. There was a REASON why Axl secured the band's name in the UYI years. Because this wouldn't be happening right now. :hihi:

yeah but maybe if axl hadnt done the things he did, we would still have the original band around right now, ever thought of that angle?


Some of u act like Axl had no hand in The old guys leaving, as if they got tired of the band and wanted to go in another direction.


Slash is in VR not cause he wants to be but because he couldnt work with Axl and his attitude.

QUIT IT WITH THE F**KIN' "BETTER" PUNS!!!!

Also true. But we have to wait and see if Axl will do something epic this time around and whether it will all be worth it in the end.

Here's some insight as to what Axl was/is up to. (Just a hint of it @ 32 seconds in)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O2rdfzeAooA

It's pointless to try and place blame like this. It's like trying to decide who broke up a marriage... sometimes it's obvious but most of the time it's just a failure to keep it alive. A lot of bands have problems, some work it out and some don't.

That's too bad that you let others opinions drive you crazy.

The whole point of the post was that people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't talk. The point wasn't to start or continue an old vs. new argument.

I apologize Russ cause u werent disgracing the old members, I realize it sounded like i was implyin u were, my post was aimed to the general population who feel it necessary to trash the original band to support the new band.


I love the new band but I get completely turned off and feel the need to defend the original when people make ignorant statements.


I read a dumbass statement on Youtube the other day where some dipshit said Ron was better than slash.


PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think sometimes people dont realize how ignorant that statement and statements like that are.



so i wish people would love the new band but still appreciate the old band and seperate the two like it should be.

U dont have to hate Slash to love Axl and Vice Versa.


i cant blame fans who diss gnr

until CD comes out, i can understand people callin this a cover band.


when u play 20 songs and 3 are originals, u are pretty much a cover band.

I read that same comment on youtube... and not to take anything away from Ron but it seemed ridiculous. First off the only member you can even begin to compare to Slash right now is Robin, and really that's not fair to either of them.

I agree, the old band doesn't have to be criticized to support the new band. I wonder if a lot of people's opinions have been effected by how they feel about VR.

If someone has seen both Slash and Ron play live, why would it be ignorant if they chose to say that Ron is  ??? better?

It's just a blanket statement that shouldn't be made. It should at least be followed by a few other sentences, imho

Lets not drag that dead horse to this thread.

Anyhoo, on topic, well said, russtcb.  : ok: nice to see informed fellow fans speaking up outside.
Lets hope the haters see reason.
At any rate, slash is not in GNR. He's in vr. They should save their fav "slash is ~" line for vr shows.
I wouldn't say a band is a person. a band is a band. GNR is a band led by axl. He the heart of the band.

THis is retarded

Must i really have to justify this.


Lets compare the resumes

slash:

Riffs:
WTTJ
PC
SCOM
Rocket Queen
My Michelle
Nightrain
Dont  Damn Me
Coma
Civil War
Locomotive
Slither
suckertrain blues
Fall to Pieces


Solo's:
do i have to list em all?


Ron greatest riffs and solos:
LOL

Robin Greatest riffs and solos;

Better
The Blues




See my point?


These guys dont warrant being mentioned in the same breath as Slash


I can play all of Slashs solos, does that make me better cause I can duplicate what he created?

I agree with everything except the vr bash, 3x platinum isnt exactly half ass.

Albums sales have nothing to do with quality.

Contra was not that bad. most people here worship the old guns sound so much that why they call it halfass as if the band, esp the 3 ex guys could have done much better job, I guess.


can you play all of robin solos or ron solos?

been brought up in democracy, I strongly believe in impartiality and equality.
Anyone can be mentioned in the same breath as anyone.

im pretty sure 3x platunum sales have something to do with quality.

or status?

That's just because alot of people think that just because something doesn't suit their liking it automatically "sucks". They can't acknowledge that it's a good effort, just not to their liking.

I don't like rap music. i think it "sucks", but i can still acknowledge when a rapper has put forth a decent effort, even though it doesn't suit my personal tastes.

And, some people are just so narrow minded that they can't/won't allow themselves to like both VR and GnR. Maybe in their minds they think that by admitting they like VR, they'd be betraying Axl and GnR. Stupid, IMO.

So Creed is high quality then?

yes, just because you dont like them doesnt make them shitty, and creed was a pretty bad choice to compare this to. Kevin Federline is bad quality and it reflects in his sales of 6000 albums. This might not be the best board to post this in, but besides the whole christian rock thing, creed has some pretty solid rhythms and melodies in their albums, and there is a huge following behind them.  Just because creed is not your kind of music doesnt mean they suck to the rest of the world.  Thats like saying rush sucks because people dont like the singer.

Am I the only person on here that loves both the old and the new equally?

If you love GNR now it IS possible to love the GNR of the 80's and 90's as well and love all the musicians that were involved in the rise of this band.

There is no need to crush the history of this band to praise the new incarnation of it. 

Every thread like this turns into an old vs. new debate and everyone is right about their opinion in their own mind.  But repeating it 82387287 times on here isn't going to change the facts.  GNR now: Axl, Robin, Richard, Ron, Dizzy, Tommy, Chris, Frank.

Nice bulletin russtcb-I think it's rude for anyone to diss another's taste in music no matter what they like.

 :peace:

i definatly feel that the new guns can be just as influentual to the world as the oldguns.

who knows 5 - 10yrs from now there will be a whole new breed of guitarists who picked up a guitar because of ron and robin just as we picked up guitars becuase of influences like slash

just a thoght :)

I agree with D's reply to this. Why aren't other people allowed their opinion? Why say negative shit about Slash? You can't possibly think Axl is 100% responsible for their success and Slash 0%. Even IZZY says 'of course it's not GN'R'. I don't care that he said it 5 years ago, he hasn't said it any differently since.

Shit, I've seen the new lineup, and I'm going again in December. They do a great job. But I still call them 'Hired Guns N' Rose'. As a musician, Slash is a huge influence on me as a guitar player, Izzy is a huge influence on me as a songwriter, and Duff is a huge influence on me as a bass player. Matt Sorum and Steven Adler are both influences on me as a drummer. Did Robin, Ron, Tommy, Frank, or Brain play on any of those records that 95% of the audience are going to see? No. Are they most likely going to do a killer job with the new record when it's released? Yes, I'd bet my ass on it, I wish them luck, and I admire them for being brave enough to make the effort and fill these huge shoes.

Until then, I'd respectufully advise you to show a little respect to the musicians that got Axl to where he is today and let others keep their opinions. Just because you think you know more about music than your friends doesn't mean they're not allowed to think 'it's not GN'R without Slash'. They are not ignorant or stupid. It's a valid argument. Some of us (myself included) support this new lineup and wish them the best of luck. Others are allowed to stay home. People make fun of me all the time for backing the new group. I don't feel the need to write an essay telling them that they're ignorant/wrong.

People like to say Axl wrote November Rain and Estranged. Yeah, he did, and Slash wrote the solos. Saying 'Slash wasn't even in the band at first', give me a break. According to that logic, Steven Tyler was the only one in Aerosmith at first, and Joe, Brad, Joey, and Tom are Johnny-come-latelys who could be replaced at anytime. It's true, Steven handpicked that band and it was his concept. Doesn't mean he necessarily should carry the band all on his own. Axl is doing a good job for the most part and I'm glad he's done well so far this year. But at least give credit where it's due and don't slag the old band for the sake of making the new band look better.

Edit - P.S. I'm not crazy about the Slash VW ad. But then again, I'm not wild about Axl's brand new music being used in a Harley commercial...Personally I'm not hugely offended by rock bands in TV ads, it's just not the coolest thing to do in my opinion...either ad. So no offense, but what's your point?

You have no clue who you're talking to. I enjoy and own music from just about every genre out there. Just because you like Creed doesn't make them a bad  example. Creed is a great example of how an artist can sell a ridiculous amount of albums with the right marketing and promotion. Not one person I know will even admit to liking them anymore.

I was afraid it would turn into what it has but I'm glad some folks got to see and appreciated the post.

You obviously missed the part where I did just that.

how about all the shows theyve sold out, with fans singing along, im not really a creed fan either, but you have to admit its professionaly done, high quality studio work, and their music appeals to a broad range of people, marketing can only get you so far, if the music plain sucks, then no one would of bought there second or 3rd albums either.  Once again I bring the federline subject up, he had plenty of plugs and marketing on all sorts of big media outlets(mtv, E), You think because you and 5 of your friends dont like something then it sucks.  Imagine if you asked Ice-t and his pals what he thought of rammstein and marilyn manson.

I didn't say anything about 5 of my friends, I said everyone I ask. As far as Kevin Federline goes, again you don't know what you're talking about. Did you know that his album has been finished for over a year and that no label wanted to pick it up? Sony finally purchased the rights and put little to no advertising behind it. If you call late night talk show hosts joking about you and your music career buzz for an album than thats sad.

Again, my personal opinion about music has nothing to do with this. The point I'm making that you keep missing is that album sales are in no way a direct reflection of the quality of music.

If you want to keep this going please send it through PM. We don't need to have an off topic argument in this thread.

This is the point  I am tryin to make:


Can Robin,Ron and richard be guitar gods, heroes and influence millions and millions of kids to play guitar?


sure, of course they can



Can they create timeless music that rivals the original GNR


Sure they can


BUT

They have to fuckin do it first.


Once CD comes out and a couple more albums come out, we can then DISCUSS and compare them to original GNR but for right now, in this moment in time, they dont even have a fuckin song on the radio or an album out so they can in no way compare to the original Guns.

NOt cause they arent talented but just cause they have no body of work to compete yet.

on that same note, when some people feel the need to constantly bring up the old members, we are forced to slag them off.   This is 2006 and I have no interest in nostalgia or pointing the finger at what could have been or whatever.  I am all about this band.   There are no what ifs, this is Guns N' Roses.   If it wasn't for douchebags with their 'its not gnr without slash' nonsense, no one would have any reason to slag off your precious ex-members.

russ, excellent bulletin.  One of the best things I've read on this board in a long time.

I hate when people try to rewrite history


without those ex bandmembers we wouldnt know Axl as we know him today and vice versa.


I just hate when people like yourself and others on here try to bestow this legendary status on a bunch of guys who NONE OF YOU WOULD EVEN KNOW had Axl not picked them off the scrap pile.


These guys had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with GNR's success but yet some of u are bold enough to try and put them in the same class as original band members who helped make the band what it is today.

Axl didnt write those riffs or solos, he didnt come up with those grooves.   The band as a whole are equal and Im tired of people giving undeserved credit to a bunch of guys who up to this point are cover musicians


Lets at least let the New Guys release an album before we declare them the greatest this or that.

To this point those guys have done nothing but play a nostalgia tour.

Ive always said that there is no reason for this band to have 2 successful eras/chapters of music. No need to diss on the old or new. They have nothing to do with each other.

The old was great and memorable and hopefully the new can follow. So far the songs we have heard are leading in that direction. The album will make it official. Then the album after that as well....

And what more can a fan ask for then great music?

I know you weren't directing that post at me but while we're on the subject I just want to make one thing clear;

I don't think these guys are the greatest of any particular thing, I was just making the point that to me they are Guns N' Roses.

I am on board with what Younggunner said,


I am willing to give this GNR a chance and seperate things into 2 chapters.


All I am sayin is, Let the damn CD come out first before we start calling these new guys legends and before we mention their names in the same breath as old GNR.'

they have to do more than play the old bands songs and play with Axl to get that status.


they can be a great band, they can outdo AFD in my opinion but by GOD they have to do it first!


when some one claims Ron who with all due respect has wrote not one memorable riff of music ever is better than a rock legend like Slash, I find that troubling and it pisses me off.

i see your point, and i hate when people trash the former members, who collectively came up with some of the most memorable songs ever.  but i think that's also a bit unfair to say that robin, richard, bumble, tommy, brain, dizzy and now frank are hired musicians.  i mean, seeing them live, watching their energy, hearing them play the fuck out of the new material and hearing the flourishes they put on the old songs--they aren't hired musicians, they're the band now.

I am speakin of the non hardcore fan

I can understand how they see them as a hired band and quite frankly until they release something that allows them to stand on their own away from the old material, this perception is understandable.

true...i would say many people have said similar things to me, without really following them closely like we do.  that's why i'm kind of sick of defending their talent--i can't point to their work in gnr as far as official recordings, obviously.  :drool:

Yeah, and you might not know Slash if Axl wouldn't have picked him.  Think about it............maybe not. 

Now, before you get all fired up, I AM A SLASH FAN.  All I was saying in my previous post was if someone says that they think Ron is better than Slash after seeing both perform, I think it's a legit opinion.  You can't base Slash being a better guitar player from him having more of a history  ::)  I might go to a concert this weekend and run into a guitar player who I have never seen before, but I think is incredible.  Should I be afraid to say I think he is better than Slash because Slash has a history?  No!  I can say that because I have seen both play and maybe that guy is in fact better than Slash, but just doesn't have the history yet.

It sounds like to me, that you just got a little defensive because somebody said someone was better than Slash? 

For example, Buckethead isn't really "known" and doesn't have a ton of history.  In my mind however (even though he may be a different cat) is better than a lot of guitar players out there that ARE more popular and have more of a history.  I can say this because I was introduced to him a few years back and have listened to his work, and think it's amazing.     

Exactly. No one ever says that.

They argue that Guns N' Roses was Axl, Slash and Izzy. Mainly Axl and Slash as far as the image was concerned. I have never seen someone argue that GN'R was solely Slash.


But they were there when the band achieved success, when they sold millions of albums, had #1 hits, and wrote the majority of the material Axl is now performing live. Slash and Izzy were both vital to that band, like it or not. And although Slash may not have been there in 1986, his bluesy solos are a large part of what propelled that album. It was Axl and Slash and Izzy TOGETHER, not just one of them.

And I'm not saying it was ALL Slash. I'm saying we need to keep in mind that not one single person is solely responsible for the band's success, and the people who were there when the band DID achieve success were the ones who were responsible for it. You can't say Slash doesn't count just because he wasn't there for the first year when the band began performing in small nightclubs.


1) There is a difference between advertising an album to let people know who's IN the band (it also said "the frontman of Stone Temple Pilots" - does that mean Weiland is running off STP fame?) versus releasing an album UNDER a band name. Velvet Revolver had stickers on their albums to make it stick out to people who wouldn't realize at first glance who's actually in the band.

2) The VW ad had NOTHING to do with GN'R. Whatsoever. It was Slash playing guitar. Please don't tell me you expect Slash to retire his top hat and to stop playing guitar because he's not in the band anymore.  ::)

I'm a supporter of the new band, and I want to hear Chinese Democracy more than anything, but seriously dude - posting stuff like this makes us GN'R fans look bad. Because the stuff I quoted above is pretty ignorant IMO.

No offense meant to you, I just think some of the stuff you pointed out - such as stickers on the VR albums and VW ad - was a pretty big "stretch."

How do you refer to what I said as "pretty ignorant" then have the nerve to follow that up with "no offense"?

How does pointing the things out that I did make "us GNR fans look bad"? How is it a stretch saying that Contraband has a sticker on it saying "featuring former members of GUNS N' ROSES!!"? It does, doesn't?

As for Slash and the VW commerical the point isn't if it has something to do with GNR.

Like I said before since, in your opinion, what I had to say was "pretty ignorant" I won't bother you with explaining it further.

You need to take things less personally.

If you're going to put yourself out there with a topic like this, you have to be willing to discuss it. I said I thought what you wrote was ignorant, not that you are ignorant. I don't have anything against you.

And if the VW ad has nothing to do with GN'R, then why did you use it as a reason for Slash living off his GN'R fame? He's a guitarist. Him performing on a commercial where he plays guitar isn't exactly running off his GN'R success, is it?

I just don't follow your logic. I said no offense and I meant it - I wasn't attacking you, I'm just questioning your reasoning.

Just for the record, the labels are usually the ones that put those stickers on cd's in an attempt to let people know who's in the band and hoping it will generate more sales. Usually it isn't the artist's idea. I'm sure there are exceptions.

Slash may not be an "original" member, but please, tell me , besides his last name, what did Traci Guns contribute ?

It just amazes me when people put down previous band members ( most of the time it's just an attempt to "put over" the new band, which is a pathetic thing to do,in my opinion). What the fuck made you people fans to begin with. You people aren't Guns N Roses fans, you're Axl Rose fans. There's a HUGE difference as far as i'm concerned.

Rockstars have been doing commercials for years, so fucking what?