Here Today... Gone To Hell!

i mean. come on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/09/world/middleeast/09mideast.html?ref=world

5h30 AM
Not one spill of blood on the beds. The 3 kids were literally blown away off the 3rd floor and killed instantly. In the next room, a 13 YEARS OLD schoolgirl, Khouloud, dead too, did left her bookbag ready for the day.

i mean. come on.

oh and Israel presented its apology. The Chosen Ones :)

and the media, in France, call that even "une bavure" > " a hitch "
the word we use when the police accidently beat up some bad kids or bad criminals.
 :hihi:


i dont know.

those surface to freedom missles never miss

Israel: taking out justice one town at a time....

The tank probably misfired. They certainly see a lot of use, so it was only a matter of time.

Maybe if this wasn't the case:

Nonetheless on Wednesday, according to the army, 13 rockets were fired into Israel.

The Israeli military said it had launched a preventive artillery barrage in response to about 10 rockets fired in the previous 24 hours.


Then they wouldn't have to fire tank shells in the first place? 

Violence brings more violence. 

Awful that they were kids though.  But lets not pretend this was an isolated incident...unfortunate yes, but its just one of many series of unfortunate acts of violence.

i think you know more than me on that.

izzy: what's your point ?

I'm assuming you're taking another witty jab at me, but whatever.  If thats the best you can do instead of have an intelligent discussion then so be it. 

The fact of the matter is it?s terrible that civilians were accidentally caught in the violence.  But Israel is not shelling Gaza just for the hell of it. There would be no Israeli artillery fire into Gaza if Palestinians were not launching attacks from there.

well inteligent discussion we can have
but the subject is tensed.

athough your reasoning could be right.
it still bugs me

is that the way you were educated ?
your parents. your mom told you to fight back if someone hit you at school?
did she tell you to spit on the teacher's face if they gave you bad grade ?

see where i'm going?

israel is hitting harder than they should. and they are justifying their action based on a status quo that is not fair
see the way the land is divided ?
see the resources palestinian have? see what israel is? and how backed up by the usa they are?

it's all about justice.


because if i follow you, you would escuse ben laden for destroying those towers.

how clumsy. :no:

Well, again, I dont' know if you can have an intelligent discussion b/c you are saying things like my parents raised me to spit on people.....

but I'll try one more time with you.

Yes, I see where you're going.  But I don't understand how you think israel should respond.  Should they send in their own suicide bombers??  should they only be "allowed" to fire the same types of rockets back?  Don't fool yourself, if the palestinians had better weapons, they'd be using them.

Also, how can you justify the terrorists using civilians as sheilds?

do you think if you are aggressively attacked you should just curl up into a ball and take it?  Sounds like you are preaching pacifism??

I'm not sure what you mean by your bin laden comment.

what about giving back the land they occupied? a land someone else gave o them ? what about 50/50 sharing? what about justice ?
israel is faaaaarrr from being the little kid that gets beat up in school. no pacifism here.

about your education: the way you say "violence brings violence" and state as a normal thing, means that you were educated that way. if someone hits, you hit back, harder if you can. your words.

ben laden : if ben laden was seeking justice and revenge agaisnt the usa in his head, then in your opinion ( the right of israel to strike back) , ben laden did a right thing in blowing up those buildings.

i have to go to bed , sorry, PEACE out !

Your reasoning and assumptions are so ridiculously wrong.  Yes, i was taught to fight back if someone provokes me, its called defending yourself.  Was I told to fight back and kick someone when they are down? no.  there is a huge difference in defending yourself and putting someone in the hospital.  If someone consistantly harrassed me, I would kick the living shit out of them when i was pushed to far.  thats how you get them to stop.  Whether or not they are the "little kid getting picked on" is irrelevant.  if the little kid is always pestering and bothering the big kid, one of these days he is going to get his ass kicked and learn his lesson, the hard way.

in regards to your issues with israel and the land/sharing arguement - none of that warrants violence.  Especialy terrorism.  You get upset about innocent palestinians getting killed...do the suicide bombers target israel military targets only?  I don't think so, last i checked the military wasn't hanging out in shopping malls or Sbarros.  I would have a great deal more sympathy for the palestinians if they marched PEACEFULLY, held PEACEFUL Protests....i gaurantee the rest of the world would sympathize too.  If Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi used the terror tactics of the palestinains none of their people would have the freedom they have today.

As for your laughable ben laden example.  the key words you used were "in his head".  yeah, in his head he thinks he did the right thing and he was justified.  Do I? Did the world?  I don't think I need to answer that question. 

Let me ask you this - do YOU think he did the right thing??

HannaHat's references to MLK and Gandhi are perfect examples of what the Palestinians should be doing.  Unfortunately, terrorists a.k.a. "freedom fighters" keep mucking shit up.
Somebody, somewhere in Palestine is turning a blind eye to these thugs in their neighborhoods.  Unfortunately, it's an almost impossible task for the average Palestinian to turn terrorists like Hezbollah away.  Your neighbors will consider you a traitor and you may end up dead.  What a sad situation.   :( 

did you guys marched peacefully to take saddam hussein down ?

:)

Where is the outrage when terrorist blow up innocent children! This is not a one sided conflict. Where is the outrage at the death squads in Iraq run around killing innocents? Where? 

That Israel's ability to hit the one civilian in a crowd of terrorists is second to none

....but on a more serious note, both sides match the other for atrocities again and again - and ultimately the real evil comes from those that try and excuse one side - because they are the ones that prolong this

They are all 24 carat bastards and its about time they found a better way - because ultimatly Israel will run out of children to kill and the Palestinians will run out of flags to burn....

careful there, careful

I'll assume that was subtle French wit and let it go

There is no excuse for what happened, whatever complaints people have with America's foriegn policy it is not the populations fault - hell, as if any of us have a say in what the government does!

i follow you,
same here with that girl
13 years old, don't tell me she can embrace all the political conflicts.
she innocent. she was bombed.

no double standards please. dont go on saying israel has the right to defends itself, and some afganistan terrorist cant.
you see. that's where some of you stumble.
you are still seeing the world in black and white. and apply logic to one side only.

on the "this article talks about one side" - well yeah, that is the last thing that happen. we ain't going to make a history of everything since day 0.

overall, it's not about who suffers the most.
who's wrong, who's right. because that ain't working, and as long as we see terrorists as simple "crazy motherfuckers who want to blow up people for the fun of it" we aint solving anything.
there are terrorists, because there are situations. it comes from somewhere.

it's about all about justice.
it's about land that is stolen, about israel living on palestinian soil. holding on to more than what they fairly should have.


and izzy: see what you just said above " because ultimatly Israel will run out of children to kill and the Palestinians will run out of flags to burn.... " that is way more offensive and close-minded that any joke on your 2 towers.

wake up man.

What-ever - you totally failed to address Izzys and Brodys point about this being a two sided conflict.  This isn't the first time you've started threads or made posts about how terrible, mean, evil Israel (with their Devil American allies - you always have to throw that in somewhere) bombs the poor, down trodden, innocent people of palestine.   Its clear you are biased, its clear you have some anti semitism/anti american agenda.  Its not worth having a discussion with you about this b/c you are only looking at one side of the coin and your mind is already made up. 

I'll say it one more time - the violence will END when palestinians stop blowing themselves up in israeli shopping malls and pizza places.  it really is THAT simple.  peaceful protests/marches will have a much more powerful, empathetic effect.

I'm from Israel , and its will never ends here
the palestinian  fire rockets almost every day  to south Israel , 5 people from my school
 in age 15-16 were killed at the line to nightclub . dont blame only one side ...

Did you even bother to read my post?

What on earth are u on about 'double standards' -? i said


and also


How on earth was that taking sides?


How was that offensive and close minded? That was a statement of utter despair at what they do to one another - the point being, will they really keep going till all they have nothing left on either side?

I dont blame the Israeli's or the Palestinians

Its not the suicide bomber or the soldier who is the real killer - or the real problem

Its those that provide an environement in which this is acceptable - on both sides

Suicide bombers are hailed as heros - the Israli that guns down a Palestinian is 'defending freedom'

When people are outraged at suicide bombings, when the muslim community finally wakes the frak up and decides these people are tarnising them, when the Israeli voter and their American overlords decides they'd rather have a compromise than revenge - then u will have peace

U will always have extremists - they are not the problem, its the support they get from others - the passive, subconcious acceptance that these killers are doing what must be done. This is what creates these people, treat the source and u'll deal with the symptoms

Wat-ever, savage my point as u will - but atleast respond to what i say and not to words u would like me to say....

Your reasoning and assumptions are so ridiculously wrong.? Yes, i was taught to fight back if someone provokes me, its called defending yourself.? Was I told to fight back and kick someone when they are down? no.? there is a huge difference in defending yourself and putting someone in the hospital.? If someone consistantly harrassed me, I would kick the living shit out of them when i was pushed to far.? thats how you get them to stop.? Whether or not they are the "little kid getting picked on" is irrelevant.? if the little kid is always pestering and bothering the big kid, one of these days he is going to get his ass kicked and learn his lesson, the hard way.

in regards to your issues with israel and the land/sharing arguement - none of that warrants violence.? Especialy terrorism.? You get upset about innocent palestinians getting killed...do the suicide bombers target israel military targets only? ? I don't think so, last i checked the military wasn't hanging out in shopping malls or Sbarros.? I would have a great deal more sympathy for the palestinians if they marched PEACEFULLY, held PEACEFUL Protests....i gaurantee the rest of the world would sympathize too.? If Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi used the terror tactics of the palestinains none of their people would have the freedom they have today.

As for your laughable ben laden example.? the key words you used were "in his head".? yeah, in his head he thinks he did the right thing and he was justified.? Do I? Did the world?? I don't think I need to answer that question.?

Let me ask you this - do YOU think he did the right thing??



answer to the question in bold obviously yes. To be honest due to weakness of both governments its happened the way it has. Palestinians have gone mentally insane and they've bugger all resources compared to Israel. Israel government is USAs pet dog so if USA government unstable like Bush Admin then israel is suffering to. All Palestine want is Palestine and part of Jerusalem. To be honest all the world leaders are a bunch of morons; thats every1. i cant rely on a single government except maybe China

there is a problem of logic in this whole situation

we ( i am putting away all the war, ) are trying to judge and analyse a situation that is not balanced.

we are trying to judge the whole situation despite the fact that the situation is not balanced.
you cannot try to reason 2 kids when one has the whole cake in his mouth and the other is crying. of course the poor one is going to fight back and rebel.

we are saddened and alarmed by the fact that palestinian are praising terrorism: they fuckin live like animals in a cage.
israel on its side, is praised for its "self defense" stance: of course, they have 85% of the ressource and occupying land illegaly.

so yeah, they can put forward the self defense thing, as long as they keep this land.

it would be like, me coming to your house, stealing some stuff, then when you try to take it back, defending myself ... wrong.


negotiations and an issue can be found ONLY if we take the whole thing to a balanced state. a state where both party are at the same level.
until then people are going to die, and the usa are going to be hated in the world.


anyway.

( I dont wont to start  argument ) it not was like that  -I'm only half jew
and not realy patriotic ,  but  jew people live there much before the palestinians came to that area.

and vice verca for centuries.

It's not even about "who was there first", its about who is there now.  Israel was able to expand its borders AFTER they were attacked by several arab nations. if they wanted too, they could have gone A LOT further then they chose.  The arab armies were thoroughly defeated and defenseless.  However, that restraint has not been rewarded at all.

what-ever conviently leaves out the fact that israel was given the land, they didn't "just come in and steal it".  it was recognized by the UN.  If you want to point fingers, point them at the ones who awarded the land to israel, not the ones who were desperate to take it.

they're symbiotical you cant do that.

"Whatever! I DO WHAT I WANT!"

 :hihi:


all jokes aside, what are you referring to that is symbiotical?

what the UN recognize is NOT what's happening right now. israel is occupying a lot of land.

but i'm glad someone sincerely admits that israel " was able to expande the borders, and they could have taken alot more"
im glad, at least, you see how wrong this nation is. and how savage they act. just like the usa.

just a violent nation :) just a violent nation.

violence for the people, violence for the people. give the kids what they want.
you guys just love it :) and you get what you deserve sometimes ;)

HAHAHAH you just proved my point!  I love how you leave out the part of my quote that talks about Israel BEING ATTACKED!!! HAHAHAHA  They wouldn't have expanded if they weren't attacked in the first place! HAHA Do you see the irony of your comments??  you are always good for a laugh, who needs TV! hahahahahah

I guess you're right though, we are a violent nation, unlike the French who rather then fight back just let German tanks roll through France   ;)   Of course when us violent Americans came to liberate your country, I'm sure your family wasn't complaining then.  ;)  Then again, you probably liked the Nazis b/c they didn't like the Jews.  Wow, what a conflict of interest that would have been for you eh?  ;) ;) ;)

i believe that isreal does not target civilians and that there deaths are an accident.  I understand that when the enemy is cowardly hiding and using civilians as a sheild...  there will be civilian casualties.  But the media here in the US really kills me.. you have animals in hoods brutally saw off the head of an innocent civilian jounalist..   and people still question who the bad guys are....  i just don't get it..   the islamic extremest have zero regard for human life and the only kind of negotiation they understand is blood and guns.   
i hope  no one take offense.. i do not mean all Muslums.. i know very well that the extremest are a very small percentage of a world religion.  just like catholics have nut jobs that blow up abortion clinics... alll religions have extreme nut jobs.  and the islamic fundamentalist nut jobs are the ones that are threatening the safty of the free world

Israel pumps MILLIONS into lobbyists in America to make sure they are portrayed in a good light by our media. The pro Israel Lobby is one of the most powerful in our capital. Specific words are frowned on, or substituted with others that completely change the story or at the very least soften it. Half the story is often left out, especially if it portrays Israel in a bad light. They oppress these people, and then turn around and spend tons of money to make sure we do not see it that way.

made no sense.
there is no "attacked in the first place "
we have a situation now.
that is not fair.
we fix it. then we talk.
until then, our judgements are false.

and i'm not even going to answer your comments on ww2 and nazi and coward french  ... they're stupid , and you know it :)

1987: i wish it was that easy. but it's not. that is not spiderman movie sorry, no big bad guy. i know you guys are used to be shown "esay to understand black and white good and evil kind of stories ..."

:)

 

I live in IL and sometimes watch the news of course it was an accident , and the palistinians  make a big deal from this only when they need the press , couse I saw a lot of times on TV , that when the soldiers come to their homes and they have information that in this house hiding terorist when they entering the house they find ,terorist stand behind some children back so the soldier cant shot him ! a lot of times they walk in the street and hide behind they children or wife .

Your all still trying to place blame somewhere

'Israel doesn't target civilians'

'The Palestinians are fighting occuptation'

While these groups believe what they do is right it will continue forever

Both sides are evil, they have committed unspeakable atrocities. Palestinians blew up resturants, Israel blows up city block, its tit for tat

When they are both isolated and face universal condemnation - then it will stop

But lest face it - no one wants it to stop

The Israelis and Palestinians actively work against anything that would lead to peace

Both sides love the current situation as it validates both, it gives them something to believe in and gives them a purpose

America loves the situation because they can sell billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel, have influence in the area and fight muslims in true crusading style

Muslims love it because they can fight America and satisfy their own paranoia that everyone is out to get them

When America disowns Israel and Islam disowns Palestine there will be peace

i heard of plenty of cases where Palestinians been innocently attacked, i'm suprised it got noticed so late. I'm sure it happens at the drop of a hat and ditto for opposition too.
As far as i know Hamas need counciling and Israel if they're not targetting civilians need to employ soldiers not morons with the aim of a headless chicken.
Btw 1987 who's to say Israel dont target civilians? I know someone who's family joined the israeli army back in mid-90s and said he went brain washed and nuts.

Why would Islam disown Palestine? Palestine has a lot of religious significance and in Jerusalem Masjid al-Aqsa, third holiest mosque in the world so israel is bloody significant. Anyway in Bethlehem, the church where xmas nativities are held are opened by Muslim keeper so peace can be attained.

What did i just write? Did u read any of it? :confused:

I didnt say Palestinians should leave their land - i said Muslims should disown the terrorists activities of Palestinians

When people stop defending the crimes of both sides things will change

Izzy made a lot of sense.

i have NEVER read any israel supporter blame israel policies or anything.

and i am shocked that i can see people from across the globe, in montana or ohio, defending israel with such wrath.

i mean. where does it come from ? but from a one angle point of  view of the evil palestinian and the poor israeli.

as izzy noted, both side are evil.
but one side has the power and money to make things change, in the right way, the other side is just surviving.
and i'm sorry.

i mean, 2 countries build a wall in the desert, a wall in the desert.

Israel does want piece , but cant do nothing about, couse they fighting not against country ,they fight against terrorist organisations , they find consensus  with one organisation , then pop up another organisation that doesnt happy .

yeah, its funny how one side is "just surviving".  Somehow they find the $$ to come up with bombs and rockets though.

alright

so what's bad about israel?
i mean, do you guys really live in a disney movie?

Palestine does not "use" or is able to "use" the press in America.

However, Israel does, without a shadow of a doubt, use their pro Israel lobby to influence the way "incidents" are reported in the middle east on a daily basis.

didnt you know that the Hamas owned the Ilinois Herald Tribune  ?!!??

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

How come we don't create full threads when Islamists kill people?  When that happens it is usually the fault of the United States.  Why don't we start creating a thread everytime Islamists kill children or blow someone up.  They do it intentionally, yet noone here continuously condemns them.  Instead, they are viewed as victims or fighting US and Israeli imperialism.  Yet, when the US or Israel miss a target they are painted as the devil.

Some things are just ass-backwards.

sorry that wasnt obvious froom the post, or i misunderstood

The reason nobody posts anything when Islamists kill people is b/c What-ever I'm Buggin is an anti-semite.  Its really simple as that.  I've said that a few times and he never even tries to deny it.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

I have never said there isn't a Pro Israel Lobby.  However, there are just as many people that condemn Israel.  Sometimes I don't think we are supportive enough of Israel.  We make them do our dirty work and then quasi-support them.

You are changing the subject as we go.

I didn't claim you did not.

We support Israel big time, more than we should. There was a great paper written by a Harvard professor not too long ago that addressed this.

I am not changing the subject.? You changed the subject.? The original subject was the American media's pro-Israeli stance.? I know Israel has a strong lobby to our government.? However, there is a large lobby that is strongly against Israel.? Most of the time, I think we are right to support them.  I strongly disagree that with your contention that we support them too much.? Like I said, sometimes I don't think we support them enough on certain issues.? The world expects Israel to act one way and its opponents to act another way.? Israel is in a unique position.? It is easy for other countries to tell them what to do and how they should handle being in a region where everyone wants them destroyed.? I am guessing that if other countries were in Israel's position and constantly being attacked they would handle themselves the same as Israel.? You can't make peace with people that only want you destroyed.?

I replied to a poster who said that Palestine used the media to their advantage.

You claimed that most of America is not sympathetic to Israel.

I disagreed saying that the Israel Lobby makes sure we see them in a good light by shaping our medias reporting on Israel. Using specific words, while deleting others etc.

Your response: You never said there was not an Israel Lobby. That was not what I said to you. Therefore, you changed the subject in order to avoid my point, or wasn't paying attention.

Keep up.

I agree with you 100% Berkeley.  Especially your last line.  Whatever Buggin can spout all the hate speech he wants but this is the middle east in a nutshell:

If hamas/hezbollah had the capabilities, money, weapons to wipe out Israel - they would in a heartbeat
Israel HAS the capabilities to completely destroy the land which Hamas/Hezbollah live on - yet they don't wipe them out.

If the terrorism ends, so does the violence.

no they wont
no they cant

geopolitics go further than the simple "capability" of wiping a country out.

So The Palestinians should just surrender?

The issue is more complex than that - the solution can never be one side doing all the work

Both sides have to disarm simultaneously. They are both to blame

Its not a question of the evil palestinians attacking freedom or the evil israelis terrosing civilians

Both 'interpretations' are wrong and propoganda used by both sides

People need to stop accepting what they are told

a solution has to come thru justice and fairness.
all over the world, locally, or globaly. micro or macro.
things go wrong when justice is not found.
people rebel and go on strike when they think they dont get what they deserve.
terrorism emerge as a consequence of humiliation and injustice (i do not say it is the whole mechanic here, but the synergy is there).

Look at the world. Globally North and South. There is a strong nonequilibrium (econonically, envrionnementally) and therefore : tensions.

so as much as you love Israel and as much as you hate muslims, you cannot deny the fact that justice is not there. because if there was justice, there would be peace. Some would say that terrorists are crazy and war would go on, cause some of the extremists (both sides) wouldnt be happy with a fait sharing ; but the fact is that it would be resolved / eaten by the ambient peace reaching process.

right now, justice is not there. obviously.
and defending yourself during an unfair situation does not mean anything.


and now a question that i really would like answered by the israel supporters here:

OK, i am obviously leaning towards the palestinian cause. i wont deny it.
i am no muslim. i have no family in palestine or in the part of the globe.
my opinions are purely based on what i read or hear, and my personal feelings / moral / ethics.
and i you simply explain the situation to a kid (simple facts), he will, naturally go the palestinian side (there was a study in europe that showed how younger teens are more on that side of the issue, altho the study showed they knew very little about the situation) this is explained by the fact:
the human being, naturally go for the "weak" and apply the basic "alliance" against empire thoughts.


now you. pro israel, i am trying to understand why
if you're a communautarist jewish and attached to your religion, i understand.
if you have family there, or related in some ways, ok.

now the random american, lost in Illinois, who is not jewish, what's the deal?
unless you studied the subject hard, and after all that, still go 100% for israel because of your view on the world (i would doubt that, considering a country raised on disney movies, where the big ones are always the mean ones)

the only plausible explanation would be the fear/hate of muslim / middle east thing, and link that issue to the "usa vs. rest of the world" issue.


and SECOND IMPORTANT QUESTION

please, please, list the bad things about israel. i have NEVER read anything bad about israel (in this issue) coming out of your mouth. that is, i am sorry, lack of objective judgement. and shows blind understanding.

Whatever-Buggin - I wouldn't say I am "pro-Israel", more like anti terrorism.  If I am "anti-muslim/arabic" then I must hate myself as I am part Lebanese.  I am not Jewish (catholic actually) nor is anyone in my family.  Despite your assumptions and accusations I am NOT pro-violence.  I hate it and believe it should be a last resort.  Sometimes it is the only action available.  I don't think the palestinians exhausted all their options before they started terrorizing civilians.  Days after the UN recognized Israel as a country and the Brits withdrew from the Palestine Mandate the Arabs ordered attacks against Jewish civilians.  Where were the peaceful marches? The demonstrations? The appeals to the world for sympathy?

Do I sympathize with them, of course I do.  If someone came to me and said, "sorry, you can't live here anymore, we're giving this land to someone else" - I'd be furious.  I'd be angry as hell.  But I can honestly say I would never resort to violence.

Let me ask you this, do you sympathize with Israel at all?  What would you do if you were them and everyone around you wanted you to die, wanted to kill you?  Do you think the terror groups are in the wrong at all?

Your assertion that the person in Illinios is misinformed, uneducated and "wrong" for siding with Israel is pretty silly.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  Cleary there is no clear right or wrong here, yet I get the feeling you think there is.  You mentioned a few times that the "bigger" of the two is always the more evil/empiric then the "weaker, smaller" underdog.  This is also patently false.  The majority is not always in the wrong.  To say the ONLY plausible explanation is racism or hate for arab people is also pretty stupid and inflamatory.  If you really think thats the ONLY reason someone could side with Israel more then the terrorists then you are reading VERY biased material.

For your SECOND and IMPORTANT question:
Yes, I am aware of the political and economic obstacles imposed by Israel and some of them are very severe. I do not for a second think they are total angels in the conflict.  I never said they were.

Can you list the bad things about Palestine/Hamas???

I have more to say but I have to get going.  I hope you answer my questions as I have answered yours.

i will, i have to go to a meeting now, i will answer

and i didnt want to sound inflammatory, sorry.

Sigh

Do u actually know about the evnts that led to the declaration of an Israeli state?

I assume u therefore know about the jewish terrorism, the attacks on British forces etc, the crippling cost of keeping forces there to police the area?

Whats my point? Ur still viewing this from a certain perspective. You need to lose that perspective.

the Un wanted to make here two countries one for jew people and one for the palistinians,
Israel exist over 50 years , how many times the palestinians could make a real country for their self -if they realy wanted this , they will had a theirs country right now.
but it doesnt seems they want it soo much .

no one is saying "surrender" and just "deal with it".  there are alternatives to violence that historically have worked.  Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi are prime examples of achieving huge social changes without using any violence.

Israel can't disarm when every country around it wants to destroy it.  What they need to do is offer fair concessions of land.  if they do that, it should be accepted by the other side and peace should be attained.  hasn't israel conceded land and yet they still get attacked? 

We were talking about thepro-Israeli impact on the media. ?I told you that I thought you were wrong. ?You then replied by talking about a general pro-Israeli lobby to our government.? Tell me how your second post responds to my post?? It skirts the issue and changes the subject. ?Again, I think you are wrong on the media point. ?However, I will not deny that there is a pro-Israeli lobby to our government. ?Just like there is a pro-Chinese and a pro-Palestinian.

You mean how the british kept Jews in detention camps and banned them from immigrating so as not to upset the oil rich Arabs??  The attacks and assasinations used by the jews against the british are just as bad as the terrorist attacks now.  There are other methods then violence.  I don't condone either one.  So what perspective do you suggest i gain if you're telling me to lose the one I have.  I should have YOUR perspective is what you're saying?  ::)

If Hamas/palestine should be upset with anyone it should be the UN for the creation of Israel.  Don't blame the people who were in detention camps prior to being given a country of their own.

if a 13 years old corpse does not appeal the world sympathy, i dont think peaceful march would. but you are in some ways right, i just want to focus on the current situtation.

we should never resort to violence in quick jump. Israel and The USA might need to hear you on that.

I sympathize with the fact that civilians are facing terrorism. That they are stuck and not going in the right direction: peace.
Terror group are wrong, tha'ts a no brainer.
Altho, since 911, we are quick to qualify groups as terrorists. And we are blind on seeing the reasons and sources of these things. Before 9/11 terrorism was the explosion of violence from a certain situation, and when terrorism was the voice of the poors, the voice of the oppressed, we were understanding that.
Now terrorism is terrorism.
If i come to your house and slaughter your family, and you come back and bomb my car: you will be the evil one. no question asked. The bush administration has taken the world to a step where we don't reason anymore (cf. patriot act)


i was out of line there. yes.


HAMAS: terrorism, fanatical religion, stuborness, violence ... list goes on.
PALESTINE: this is a country, composed by m any opinions. do not apply here.


PEACE

your point being?


Exactly. I call it right down the middle - anything else is just bias


I'm fairly sure they are angry with the UN  -as well as America, Britian, France, Russia, Outer Mongolia, the moon, ET, the bad guy in Goldfinger etc etc

just a wittle reminder

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png/306px-UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png)

maybe we should go back to that kinda of fair distribution

I don't think taking a side, taking a stance on something is bias at all.  if you only get the facts from one side, that is bias.  If you educate yourself on every side of the story and make an informed conclusion that is not bias.  If you split the middle on ever single issue I don't respect you for that - I loathe people who can't make up their minds, form an opinion or take a side.  This situation is DEFINITELY not a case of 100% wrong/ 100% right, but even in gray areas you can still take a side.  Same goes for abortion, death penalty, gun control --- these are all hotly debated topics in american soicety.  you're suggesting we should all split the middle?  I don't.  Compromising is one thing, standing on the sidelines is another. 

I can't call Israel a Jewish state because judaism condemns terrorism which is what israel government is like. Hamas government is bloody nuts. they're just crazy. think about it, if they h8 israel soo much the arabs Israel=nothing. but look there are people there and its rich as cheese

btw, British did a lot of damage to arab nations and damage to USA. Apparently british cheated usa into war