Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I think what Guns n Roses are  trying to do is let things happen organically.  They seem to be acting like they are an underground band and when they drop their album they want the people to come to them, instead of trying to shove it down the publics throats.  I think that is very commendible considering how big the Guns n Rose name once was.

I dont think they care if CD debutes at #1 on the charts.  I dont think they want it to hit #1 because they hyped the shit out of it.  That would be fake.  If it climbs to #1 and goes on to have a long life, than it was a success based on the quality of the record and its abillity to strike a nerve in people and not just the result of a media blitz.

This band is a real oldschool Rock n Roll band, on the road conquering one city at a time and trying to let their live show and eventually their debute record do the talking.

They just need to do their thing and everything will fall into place. :peace:
 

i agree.  nice post.

I agree too. And I like the post alot.

I completely agree. Great post.  : ok:

i agree, and i've been saying that since the first november release dates came out and all the speculation regarding jay-z's album and gnr's album coming out in the same day.

I think they want to be number 1 by merit, not because of the name they have but because of the genius behind the music :peace:

right on : ok: : ok:

i think there's some truth to this. i think they also realize there's a lot of press prepared to bash this, but they believe they have a product that will make fans and silence the criticisms.

THat has been kinda basically my feelings al these yrs, and you said it perfectly!. LEt the music do the talking, and let the success be on the stuff that matters , THE MUSiC!

This has been the story of GN'R since the day it was born.

Well not to be Mr. Negativity, but that would be the most incredibly stupid thing they could possibly do. Bands record albums to SELL, not to see if it grows like a plant. To think otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. They would have to be insane to not hype the shit out of it.

And since when has Axl Rose, the pompous, arrogant, egotistical, self-absorbed asshole that he is, ever wanted to do things on a small scale, ie keep GNR "underground?"

I agree with most of the other posters...a very nice post.  :yes:

Ok here we go, I knew it was only a matter of time.  With your description of Axl Rose you come off as a person that is very easily swayed by the things you read.

To try and make it a little clearer for you, I never said Axl wants to "keep" GnR underground.  I only implied that he wants to succeed on the merit of the record and not the hype machine.

Im sure GnR have nothing against selling a lot of records either, but try telling them that moving units is the only reason
they record music and see if you dont get a punch in the face. :peace:

i think the point is that the best way to sell CD might not be with heavy marketing early. that might just lead to a lot of negative buzz. they know their single will be played because they're GNR, and then when people like it, it will be requested and played more. they want the album to build a little steem so that media will think twice before bashing it. it's too easy to talk about Axl's hair, the original members, the money and time spent on CD, all kinds of things. so IF this is their approach, i think it's to make sure the focus is on the music, and not on a good story about an aging rock star.

Good Post...

all it's ever been about to me was about the music..

Everybody, stop acting like the GN'R family is U2 or Eminem, cause their not. If there's no promotion it's not as a result of the family trying to be cool or incorporate it in some master plan. It will simply be because Geffen won't give them any money for it, or that the counsel, meaning Axl, is too afraid of a backlash to be putting himself out in a major way.

You don't choose to have little promotion.

LOL nothing about the album chinese democracy or this new band could really be considered "organic"


everything about them is over contrived, not a flame just an observation

I don't know Axl Rose personally and neither do you, so I can only judge him based on what I've seen. In 20 years, he's done nothing but come across as a pompous, arrogant, egotistical, self-absorbed asshole. And that's one of the reasons why I've been a GNR fan for 20 years (the other being their music, of course). If he's anything other than that, he's done a wonderful job of hiding it.

What purpose would it serve to sign with a record label if your goal wasn't to sell your music? If their goal was to just be a band that played songs, then they'd just play songs (although that does seem to be all they do anyway). If their goal was to just get people to hear their music, then they'd do free shows and give away cds.

It's ridiculous to say, "oh maybe Axl doesn't want to make money, he just wants people to love his music." Ask the record label execs how they'd feel about not promoting an album that's had millions $$$ dumped into it. They may not punch you in the face, but they'd sure as hell laugh in it.

I like the way you make that sound.  But 2006 is much different then 1988.  You need to let people know that there is a great record on its way, or it'll simply be downloaded.  I'm sure it will be downloaded anyway, but if the public knows that GN'R put time and effort in this album they will respect it even more.

I'd like to agrre with this post too. you made a good point there. Appetite didnt smash the top ten straight away, infact it was in a pretty obscure posistion to begin with and it was the bands touring and personality that made people buy. (that an SCOM). UYIs stuck around because of the immense touring GnR did and not jus ton the strength of the album so I think Axl know what he is doing. No point hving lots of promotion becuase that just makes you a target for the press (and hes already a big enough one). Release the album, let people who like it like it then get on the road and persuade the others.
 : ok:

I also think that of course GnR want to sell a billion copies of this album-but in the right way and to not to just whore themselves out to the media. They want to do it the rock and roll way-not the pop music way-sure the music industry has changed and this might be a tall order, but remember before UYI came out Axl said that they have recorded the album the way they want it and will promote it the same way, they wouldnt care if they sold 1 copy , as long as its their vision. GnR are gonna do it their way, which seperates them from the rest and which is why we love them so.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of the original post. We have to remember that this is a business. It is quite frankly commercial suicide not to promote an album which has been anticipated for so long. The casual fan doesn't scour the internet all day looking for snipbit information, they need the media in all forms, tv, radio, press, internet to get the message that CD is out there.

Havind said that, there is a certain programme airing tonight that could air to 1.2billion people worldwide. That would make a great place to announce a release date? ? ?: ok:   Maybe 100million people will watch the live broadcase. Not bad advertising is it?

How ever you dress this up, the main reason people keep coming up with these no-promotion scenarios is because the alternative is that the album just isn't ready and we've been misled again.

There'll be lots of the old fans who will inevitably ridicule the new album.  However I see it as starting over for the band and promoting themselves almost like a new act might.  The new stuff doesn't sound like the old GnR but still sounds kick-ass from what I've heard.

I like this, we are actually having a healthy disscussion.

Remember a little while ago when Merck came out against that New York times article, he said that Axl doesnt give a fuck about fame or popularity, all he wants to do is make the best possible record he is capable of so that the people who are music enthusiest and the people who are interested in Guns n Roses will have something that they can enjoy,  well I believe it.  Axl is a pure artist, If he gave a shit about selling records he would have put some out by now.   I really dont think he gives a shit about sales, he doesnt need the money that record sales are going to bring, I think he knows that no matter what he is going to sell enough records to satisfy the label.   And fuck the label, just use them to get the product out there.  Keep those motherfuckin suits in the dark as long as possible because they will hang on  his every move because he is their cash cow.  Why do you think this thing has been going on as long as it has?  Axl and the band have all the power and they are gonna do this thing the way they want, and if that means just droppin the album suddenly with no hype then be it.  Thats way cooler than doing talk shows and kissing the publics ass in order to sell a product.  Especially when the product is so bad ass that it will be impossible for the public to ignore.  I just have this feeling that once actual music hits the airwaves this thing is going to explode and it will be because the music rocks, period. : ok: :peace:

That's what I've always liked about Axl, he genuinely cares about the product he puts out.  Not like these cookie-cutter bands looking for fame and fortune.  If he's spent 10 years on this album, it's gotta be great.

I agree with this sentiment. I honestly don't think Axl gives one hot fuck how the album does on the charts. I would imagine guys like Robin and Richard who seem to be very much about their love of music would be the same way.

It's all well and good that Axl would want this album to do well based on actual praise and not an overblown hype machine, but in the long run it's not really up to Axl. Does anyone think that Universal/Interscope/Geffen are going to let this thing get put on Best Buy's shelves on Tuesday morning with no prior announcement? Sure Axl may be in it for the music, but the label is in it for the money.

I totally agree, if its released without any hype there is no expectation for success (minus the wanna be biz execs on this site haha).  I'd rather see a weak debut followed by a long, slow burn with word of mouth/reviews carrying this thing to the top, much like what happened with AFD.

The record company has a lot to do with publicity, because after all it is THEIR investment.  Seeing as GnR used over 13 million to record this album, I am certain that it will be hyped to give it its best shot at #1.

Perhaps Axl wants to take the "organic route", but I think the truth is this CD just isn't as close to coming out as they led us to believe.  I hope I'm wrong, but fear I'm not.

Excellent point.  Particuarly when your record company spends $15 million on your record.

What makes you think Guns n Roses or Axl have ANY say in promotion ??????????/

jesus...this is Geffens/ Universal cash cow and if they want to market the snot out of it  they are gonna ...period.

They want their money back... They have to promote it to Number one... for an extended time period...

I am so glad there are people who actually think before they post.  Axl isn't like Mel Gibson fronting the bill for Passion of the Christ.... The record company has put their money into this and they want a return on their investment. 

Yeah but they can't promote something that doesn't have a release date.  That's where Axl has the control.

Lets be nice,eh?  Because the fact is...your position is no better thought out than those advocating a no-promo strategy.  Less so, maybe, because those advocating no-promo are giving creative, thoughtful explanations for why.  Those poo poo-ing them are doing so strictly based on their perception of the way things run, and history.

The fact is that established artists DO have say so in promotion.  They don't have total control, normally, that's true.  But if the artist and/or their management had a good idea for an alternative marketing strategy....the A&R guys right up through the execs would give it a listen.  And, provided it made good fiscal sense, they might actually implement it.

Here's the thing...it's not like there is NO promotion going on.  There is.  It's certanly non-traditional promotion, but it's there.  Print and radio (the two most widely used promotional vehicles for music).  And the "buzz" being created is pretty noteworthy based just off that.

So, before you get nasty in shutting down some alternative ideas...maybe think THEM trough to conclusion and recognize that, until proven otherwise, they're just as viable an alternative as "the old standby" is. :)

 ? ?As cool and maybe even romantic the idea seems (old school approach). The game is just too cut throat, the stakes are too high...not only does the record company want it's return they want to make as much as they can. One comment I heard on a documentary about today's music (don't ask me what it was called) but I think Quincy Jones said "there are no suprises in todays music scene, things are all calculated, marketed, promoted as such.

 ?The more you think about that the more each of us has to say. it is true. All of us here are die hards, that's why we spend our time here...but in today's scene there is no time for a record to "slowly gain momentum" it would be so cool if things were like back when Zepplin released album after album with no singles at all that's awsome. Pearl Jam makes videos, Metallica sold out, Aerosmith sucks (I can't believe I said that). Even today you think Contraband is considered an old album it's fucked up, do you still hear "falling to peices" on the radio...very rarely. It falls into that void...that void that GNR songs fell into around 95-97. Not new - not yet classic.

 ?I think Axl has worked fuckin hard to create this huge "Mystic" associated to the GNR name. The guy has huge balls to do what he is doing, I think he is risking a lot (touring with no record) it's tough on ticket sales and shit, Changing dates, no single, no release date...hell not even a mention of the record since on tour except it will be out this year. They guy has been gone longer than Zepplin's Creative Era 68-80 that's fuckin' insane. (Except for sticking his head out vary briefly)

He could of played the game and released CD back in 98 or 99 but that wasn't and never has been Axl's scene. If that was the case they could of released the Snakepit record as the comeback album back then but he said ..no.

 ?It's a wild ride but that's sort of what keeps me maybe most of us so glued to this "monster" we are so emotionally connected to this thing, sticking up for the band in bad times, waiting 2 years for a picture of Axl shopping with his sister just to prove the crazy fuck hasn't dissapeared to Agrentina or something.

This album means so much to each of us we all want to figure out what the fuck is going on but we can't. No news.

My wife laughs and jokes what's with all this shit ? as if there wasn't anything else to listen to ...

This band - this singer ain't like any other band...but we aren't like any other fans either

now that I've told you how I really feel.....

Why don't they make a commerical with Better playing and have the commerical read only 8 Tues left which one is it or something like that. ?That way everyone will be going to record stores every tues just to see if its there. ?personally starting next week im going to best buy every tues till the end of the year. ?Its actually kinda of exciting.

yeah good post.

and they have alot to earn, being a different line up, so many fans loving the old, they have top gain themselves there own rep that they can be as good as slash and duff in there own way.

Ok, Appetite for Destruction wasn't a "slow-burn" by design. It just took a while to catch on because people didn't care for It's So Easy or Welcome to the Jungle at first.

Why on earth would some of you say that promoting an album is for pop music? That's beyond asinine. Some of you guys (and girls) are just making up fairy tales so you won't feel so lead-on when the album doesn't come out this year (or any year, ever).


Those of us who are "poo-pooing" on this silly idea are just being real about this. Not promoting an album that's been in the works for 13 years, had $15million dumped into it, had 2 tours supporting it, and been pushed back 7 years would be stupid. With that much time and money going into it, they certainly can't be naive enough to rely on word of mouth.

I agree with everything you said.  Lets be realistic.... a company is going to go with what has worked for them in the past especially considering they have poured millions of their own dollars into this project.  If it wasn't such an expensive risk, I think there would be a SLIGHT possibility that they would take a chance with a 'new' advertising approach like the one the original poster mentioned.  But that would only happen if they didnt spend more than Ethiopia's GDP on this record.

I don't know the answer to this so Ill just ask, how do we know Axl didn't in fact sink a lot of his OWN MONEY into the project.? I know #'s are thrown out there and stuff, but where is the true source. Bans and artist make most of their real income on touring and merchandise. So could it be possibly that Axl has more to lose and this why touring before the
album comes out? I dunno the answer do you?

1. Those of us saying this might be the approach aren't just grasping at straws here - Merck actually said it might just show up in stores one tuesday. You can say he didn't mean that, but it was said, so that gives good reason to speculate.

2. The record company may have their say about promotion (it could also be that Axl does things his own way, because i think if they let him make the record the way he did, then why not think they'd let him do whatever else he wants) - but it's not unreasonable to think that the no-promo idea came from Geffen. The myth of this album is currently it's best mainstream selling point.

3. Axl was completely nowhere to be seen for years and years. There were no pictures of him. "Axl spottings" are what we used to talk about on here - could it be? Was it really him? Like he was fucking big foot. GNR cancelled a tour and never said anything. All this has been going on, and the most consistent response we get is silence. So is this no-promotion idea really out there? Yes, and that's why it's appealing. EVERYTHING about this band has been unexpected.

any scenario is possible. ?How likely is it that this is the case? ?I would say not very likely at all. ?

We are talking about the conventional ways that record companies work. ?This is how it has always been done (unless if you are DIY) and that is why 99% of artists make almost no money on album sales. ?The record company gives you money to record, mix, master and everything else that needs to be done to an album. ?They promote the album in order to sell a ton of them, get radio play, MTV play etc, then in turn your band cashes in on ticket sales and merchandise from a wider fanbase. ?

Tah is a very good point but it would be in his own best interest to have the album out, because new album = more ticket and Merchandise sales

Conversely having the band touring again , beit on a larger scale but still in the spirit of "old school" ways also can be a advantage . And honestly I for one am very confident that the album will be out this year.

To me, not marketing the album is a sign of a lack of confidence. ?Now I'm not saying that is Axl and company's feelings or intentions, but to an outsider it can sure seem that way. ?Hopefully they do some marketing, even if its in the week before the album comes out. ?No marketing at all is just strange.

Certainly a valid point of view.  But not the only one.  I'm simply saying that keeping an open mind, and listening to alternate ideas, has some merit, too.

And again..you're asserting "not promoting".  There is promotion going on...it's just not the traditional hype machine.

On the money thing...there are other things to consider:

1) The label recouped a good part, if not all, of the costs of CD (which USUALLY takes the form of an advance on future royalties to the band, at least in part...so it's not like it won't come back to their pockets eventually) with GH.  Conservatively they pulled back 8 to 10 million, with 12 to 18 million being the midpoint in projections.

2) The label could very well have just decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater, considering expenses, and took up the alternative marketing idea simply to pinch pennies on the project

3) The label could very well have been pitched what they thought was a new, innovative, creative marketing strategy that, eventually, will result in more PROFIT off the album by reducing ad expenses and maximizing free promotional vehicles.

There's lots of ways to explain the money stuff, if you really think on it.  I'm not, for an instant, saying your wrong in your viewpoint...just that there is no reason to insult, poo-poo on, or belittle those who hold out for a different possibility.

Yes, lets be realistic....companies are changing the way they advertise and promote. ?With the advent of "media on demand" technologies, the almost comatose state of the print media, the continued and increasing role of the internet to consumers, and the evolution of personal technology.....someone is going to have to try something different, eventually. ?Because the old methods are beginning to go long in the tooth and carry incredible expense for limited benefits.

Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it won't ever change. ?Yes, I agree, your opinion is particuarly well founded on history. ?and yes, it may be ?optimistic to expect that Universal will choose GnR to try some new tactic they think might work. ?Absolutely. ?But it does't mean, by any stretch, that it won't happen.

Oh, on the money spent...see my response to the Doors singer. :)

They ADVANCE the artist the money to do all that (and more).? Then, they track the record sales to pay off the advance.? I'm not going to get into the "evils" of big labels...god knows artists and others have done that better than I can do it justice here...but suffice to say that the accounting is creative enough that, unless you're a huge, over time seller (like AFD, or the UYI albums) making money on the album, for an artist, is tough.

No marketing at all would be suicide.

No paid marketing til release.....that's an intriguing idea.

And I've heard the "lack of faith" point made before.  It's not a bad one.  The thing is.....given the response to the leaked material in the press, and on line, and on radio stations that have played it.....I'm not convinced the label would ignore all that.  Granted, they have further exposure to the material on which to found their opinions, but...still.....

I just don't think that assuming the reason we've heard nothing about the album in a while is because of an alternative marketing ploy. If this is the case, don't expect Chinese Democracy to do all that well (especially in America). Today, albums need promotion to be succesful. If GNR did just record this album to fullfill Axl's vision or whatever, then I'm sure he at least wants to tell people when they can hear it.

Yes, they're doing some form of promotion by touring. But it's not working. They're playing to half empty arenas ?Go up to random people and ask if they heard when Chinese Democracy is going to be released. After you have to explain to them it's a Guns n Roses album that's been rumored to come out since 1999, they'll ask, "They're still around?"

They did start out with, what seemed to be, a creative marketing strategy. When 4 songs leaked earlier this year, major news outlets did pick up on it. It got people talking about them. That would have been an ideal time to release it. Now, not only have they still not released an album, but they're down to playing ONE new song in the setlist (I'm not counting The Blues, it's been listened to for 4 years).

No marketing at all would be suicide.


Then Le Petite Morte Starts Tuesday

1) Again, there IS promotion going on....just not paid advertisements.  Radio is talking about it, print media is talking about it, there are blurbs up on all the big music sites about a rumored release date.  All that is promotion.

2) "Today's albums need promotion to be successful".  There are plenty of breakout artists who would disagree with you, especially if you mean promotion "pre-release".  Look at The White Stripes first album.  Look at (god help me) Evanescence's first album.  Look at (again, god help me), Creed's early albums. There have been a number of successful albums, that still sell well, that didn't get a huge push at release.

3)He will tell people when/where they can hear it...as soon as they can.

4) Well, then they're not listening to Rock Radio or reading any sorts of music press (online or otherwise)...which means they would be unlikely to be exposed to the traditional album hype machine anyway.

5) I'd venture they may be simply playing the future single (Better) and holding off on the rest until the album hits.  But it's just a guess.

Read both lines, now Buddha...both lines.

No marketing at ALL would be suicide.

No marketing til release would be intriguing.

Once the album drops they have to do something....

If you work in corporate America then you should know that it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get an established firm to try something out of the box. ?Usually its a small independent firm who does something that is so different and becomes successful and then others emulate it. ?Just look at film. ?Kevin Smith brought raunchiness to a whole different level when he released the original Clerks. ?Others tried (and still try) to copy it. ?Leigh Whannell tried something completely different with Saw. ?Without that movie I don't think we would see as much graphic violence in film as we do today. ?Tarantino with Pulp Fiction... the list goes on and on. ?And the common theme is that its always a small firm or group of people looking to break into the industry. ?

Another issue is with the finance department. ?You aren't able to calculate ROI on something that has never been done before. ?And if the big plan fails... who is going to be blamed? ?A bunch of people will be blamed, and no one wants to lose their job so they will go with the norm. ?The only big firm I can think of offhand that has no problem taking risks is Wal-Mart. ?Something tells me the record label backing Guns N Roses arent going to take a big risk with his one. ?

Publicity is always more effective than advertisement.
Axl and GNR know how to generate publicity. Axl frequently does it by accident (tommy hilfiger). There is and will be publicity and they won't have to pay for it. All that's strange so far is no release date and the possibility that there won't be one.
There could be any number of reasons for something like that, but right now it's still more reasonable to believe we're getting it this year, because the band/management seems to be carrying on that way. Dropping two albums on the same day, THAT was crazy. Releasing CD without a prior announcement, i don't think that's so far out there.

I know the perception you're talking about. ?Historically...it's mes a mes. ?You see the big firms innovating all the time...it's just not as remarkable when they do it. ?I've seen some exceptionally creative marketing (Halo2 is a great example from MS (as is most of their marketing), WalMarts stuff too, ditto on Apple's IPOD marketing) come from pretty large firms. ?I've seen it come from small firms, too (The original "priceless" idea was pitched by a small firm).

On corporate finance....while the bean counters have great sway over things, they are not the ultimate decision makers. ?They simply need to be placated, and, if you have enough sway at the top, that's not too hard to do.

I don't know sort of like I said earlier....on this one the stakes are too high. I just want the Bastard to release it who cares how !

I think they know what they're doing.....they are long time successful veteran musicians...and we are not.

The only evidence for the non-promotion scenario is the lack of information, but the lack of information is also overwhelming evidence that there is nothing to say. Has Axl ever said anything to suggest he would release CD with no promotion........and it's not even no promotion, people are really suggesting anti-promotion. That is, time and money are being actively invested to suppress information about the album, create alternative means distribution, and basically shut up anyone in the chain between Axl and us. To me it doesn't make any sense, even if it is theoretically possible.

My feeling is that the album was supposed to coincide with the tour, but it just isn't ready........would that really surprise anyone?

1. Merck also said CD would be released in '05 - so here a grain salt to take that with.

2. Theres little Myth outside of the online world (smaller extent the rock industry) Geffen is gonna want every teenager, MTV watching 50 cent fan to buy this album.... they arent gonn market it to 50,000 fans who think its "mythic"

3. CD at this point is go big o go home.......everything about it is big so the promotion should be too.....

#1 albm
#1 single
#1 video

Billboard hot 100

^all of those things in themselves promote an album .......

to say Geffen or Guns done care about those is again a little silly.

Actually, Merck said 2005 was the year of Guns N' Roses.

He never said we'd see an album :-\

really good point RF. thats what it seems like doesnt it? I think it would be a great accomplishment if Guns does this and goes to number 1. They wouldnt be just riding the name. They would be a new band, putting out their first of many amazing records.

Best post in like 2 years.

axls not doing this album to sell. hes doing it for himself to make a record hell be totally satisfied with.. i doubt axl gives a shit about how many copies it sells, or what number it debuts

If Axl was only concerned about sales, hed put a reunion tour together. That would truely be selling out. Mr Rose has a lot more integrity than that.

But he's doing it with someone else's money.

There's a big gap between "selling out" and not caring about sales. If Axl truly didn't care about sales then he wouldn't release the album at all - that way
it maintains it mystique forever.

i don't think they will be marketing the album to teenagers and 50 cent fans. i think they will initially be marketing it towards the same people who bought greatest hits, while simultaneously hoping it catches fire with the fans of more modern rock.

Their oldschool approach is admirable still, even after fifteen years of waiting with little. Soon in time we will hear the record; I hope it surpasses their previous awards; and I hope as listeners it is our reward.

As far as promotion how much do you need? people you who don't follow GNR have probably heard of this album.
It seems to have a life of it's own. Fans crave it others think of it as a joke. When it does drop and people start talking about it,listening to it,seeing what media there is this album who knows.