Here Today... Gone To Hell!

'I Apologize to No One'

White House, Kerry Exchange Accusations

Tuesday, October 31, 2006

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON ?  The White House and Sen. John Kerry traded their harshest accusations since the 2004 presidential race on Tuesday, with President Bush accusing the Democrat of troop-bashing and Kerry calling the president's men hacks who are "willing to lie."

The war of words, tough even for this hard-fought campaign season, came after Kerry told a group of California students on Monday that those unable to navigate the country's education system"get stuck in Iraq."

The two parties are searching for any edge amid indications Democrats could take back the House and possibly win control of the Senate in next week's midterm elections. Though neither Bush nor Kerry is on any ballot, the bitterness with which they fought each other as 2004 rivals spilled over as both campaign hard for their parties in a race shaped in large measure by public doubts about the Iraq war.

White House press secretary Tony Snow was asked about Kerry's comment at his regular briefing with reporters, and had clearly come prepared with a lengthy attack. He said the quote "fits a pattern"of negative remarks about U.S. soldiers from the decorated Vietnam veteran and suggested that whether Democratic candidates particularly those running on their military service backgrounds agree with their 2004 standard-bearer should be a campaign litmus test.

The White House also released in advance remarks Bush was to deliver later in the day while campaigning in Georgia, in which the president called Kerry's statement" insulting and shameful." Bush, like his spokesman earlier, said soldiers deserve an apology from Kerry.

"Our troops did not enlist because they did not study hard in school or do their homework,"Bush said in his prepared remarks for a former GOP congressman, Mac Collins, who is trying to oust Democratic Rep. Jim Marshall." The men and women who serve in our all-volunteer armed forces are plenty smart and are serving because they are patriots."

Kerry, who is considering another run for the White House in 2008, angrily fired back.

His statement called Republicans"assorted right-wing nut jobs."

And at a hastily arranged news conference in Seattle, Kerry said: "I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy."

Kerry said the comment in question was "a botched joke about the president and the president's people, not about the troops ... and they know that's what I was talking about."

It came during a campaign rally for California Democratic gubernatorial candidate Phil Angelides. Kerry opened his speech at Pasadena City College with several one-liners, saying at one point that Bush had lived in Texas but now"lives in a state of denial."

He then said:"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

That, Kerry said, was meant as a reference to Bush, not troops. Kerry said it is the president who owes U.S. soldiers an apology _ for "a Katrina foreign policy "that misled the country into war in Iraq, failed to adequately study and plan for the aftermath, has not properly equipped troops and has expanded the terrorist threat.

The Massachusetts Democrat called the White House attack "a classic GOP textbook Republican campaign tactic" that reveals Republicans "willingness to reduce anything in America to raw politics."

"I'm sick and tired of a bunch of despicable Republicans who will not debate real policy, who won't take responsibility for their own mistakes, standing up and trying to make other people the butt of those mistakes," he said."It disgusts me that a bunch of these Republican hacks who've never worn the uniform of our country are willing to lie about those who did."

Unsubstantiated allegations about Kerry's Vietnam War heroism from a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth figured prominently in the 2004 Kerry-Bush race. Even Kerry has blamed his slow and uncertain response to the group's claims for helping to doom his White House chances, and Democrats viewed the Tuesday fracas as a test of that lesson.

"Enough is enough. We're not going to stand for this,"Kerry said. "We are going to stay in their face with the truth."

Other Republicans, sensing opportunity for their side, piled on throughout the day with their own demands for an apology from Kerry.

GOP Sen. John McCain, like Kerry a decorated Vietnam veteran and a potential 2008 rival, said while campaigning for Republican candidates in Indiana that "the suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq is an insult to every soldier serving in combat today."

Added House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., struggling to keep his party in control of Congress: "Our soldiers risk their lives in the face of grave dangers on the battlefield, and no one who chooses to courageously and selflessly defend our country can be considered'uneducated."

Separately, the White House issued President Bush's Veterans' Day proclamation praising those who have served in the armed forces a week and a half before the holiday.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Oct31/0,4670,WhiteHouseKerry,00.html

I'll admit, the quote is REALLY bad.  Pretty dumb thing to say - good thing hes not running in any midterms  :hihi:

But c'mon, does anyone REALLY think he was calling the troops dumb?  ::) 

If he was smart he would have said "I'm sorry if anyone thought thats what i was saying but I really meant to say....."

This is dumb news on a slow news day, much like the Jim Webb novels....the reps are desperate for ANYTHING to turn against the dems with a week till the midterms. 

Be interesting to see how other Dems respond to this (b/c you know it'll be the news of the night on the talk shows)

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

Dumb news? WTF?

So a highly ranked Democratic leader completely disrespecting our troops is dumb news on a slow day? That's crazy!! :rant:

Sigh - like I said...do you REALLY, TRULY think Kerry thinks that of our troops?  If you honestly do then I can't argue with your opinion but I think you're just joining the Rep feeding frenzy.  They are desperate for anything to pounce upon.  This isn't as blatantly "wrong" like Foley was or the Abrahmoff scandals.  He messed up his line and it came out bad, REALLY bad.  John Kerry actually served in the military (and don't start with the whole "oh he was only there for a month blah blah blah" nonsense - he was there and a lot of other politicians weren't).  I think having been there he knows how intelligent and brave the people fighting in our military are.

I can't disagree that it was totally retarded of him to day, botched line or not.  I read it and I started shaking my head.  But watch, the Reps will try to drag this "story" out for DAYS....   I think a lot of Dems will take this as an opportunity to distance themselves from Kerry and say a lot of pro troop stuff.  its not going to hurt anyone (but Kerry, but c'mon, did he really have a chance for 08 anyways?  I don't think so).

Kerry's response to the Rep feeding frenzy:

"If anyone thinks a veteran would criticize the more than 140,000 heroes serving in Iraq and not the president who got us stuck there, they're crazy. This is the classic G.O.P. playbook.   I'm sick and tired of these despicable Republican attacks that always seem to come from those who never can be found to serve in war, but love to attack those who did.

I'm not going to be lectured by a stuffed suit White House mouthpiece standing behind a podium, or doughy Rush Limbaugh, who no doubt today will take a break from belittling Michael J. Fox's Parkinson's disease to start lying about me just as they have lied about Iraq . It disgusts me that these Republican hacks, who have never worn the uniform of our country lie and distort so blatantly and carelessly about those who have.

The people who owe our troops an apology are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney who misled America into war and have given us a Katrina foreign policy that has betrayed our ideals, killed and maimed our soldiers, and widened the terrorist threat instead of defeating it. These Republicans are afraid to debate veterans who live and breathe the concerns of our troops, not the empty slogans of an Administration that sent our brave troops to war without body armor.

Bottom line, these Republicans want to debate straw men because they're afraid to debate real men. And this time it won't work because we're going to stay in their face with the truth and deny them even a sliver of light for their distortions. No Democrat will be bullied by an administration that has a cut and run policy in Afghanistan and a stand still and lose strategy in Iraq ."

I think it is wrong to even suggest a comment like this in a time of war!

It was literally a slap in the face to all our troops.

I think the Republicans should keep this comment in the news. No, Kerry isn't running for anything but he is a very popular and looked up to by alot of democrats.

It didn't take long for Kerry to play the Blame Bush card at all!!  ::)

So Kerry's response is BLAME BUSH once again? Not taking any responsiblity for his on mouth!

What a fuckin disgrace Kerry is!

Can't disagree with you - REALLY dumb thing to say, in war time OR peace time.

But read his response with an open mind (or try to at least) I think the things he points out are a lot more important then one line spoken in a speech.  Not that it makes what he said any less stupid, but lets put the news and the focus on what is really important.  John Kerry's words aren't getting troops killed....Bush's failed policies and lack of body armor for the troops is.

Your last line about keeping it in the news and how even though kerry isn't even running that hes "still popular and looked up to" by other dems is EXACTLY how the Reps are thinking and what they want others to think.  That is SUCH BS dude, and you know it.  One dumb comment by a missed-chance politician doesn't mean the rest of the party thinks what Kerry said.

I didnt really see it as Kerry disrespecting troops. ?Its like one of those backward statements. Uneducated people wind up being troops doesnt nessesarily mean all troops are uneducated. But yeah, it wasnt the smartest thing to say on his part.

Thats because he wasn't. 

At all. 

Yet the Republicans are going to try their hardest to make you think that.  I think the American people have gotten a lot smarter in the past 6 years. 

Then what did he mean by his comment?

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

How more blatant disrespectful could one be?

Read his response. 

Look, I'm not arguing it wasn't retarded to say, but I'll ask one more time...do you genuinely, honestly, truly think he really meant those words literally?  If you think "yes", you're entitled to your opinion.  I don't think he did.  I'm sure we'll see a poll wondering what the rest of America thinks.

EDIT - hahah AOL already has one up ;)

roughly 70% think it was insulting, 30% don't.

not surprising.  the actual words are insulting/idiotic.  Do i think he meant what he said literally?  absolutey not.  I don't think anyone would think our troops are uneducated or dumb. 

I agree with a dem political strategist who said in more words or less, "kerry should just shut his mouth till after the election".

Exactly......it's going to be a republican version of "You people????" ?Kerry didn't make that comment intending to degrade the troops. ?He did use a poor choice of words.....he could have said "You cause an Iraq situation" or something. ?But the Republicans are going to exploit this for every last chance they can. ?I mean it's not like they have the same advantages as the Dems do right now such as Repubs trying to play hide the salami with underage pages on the internet or assaulting and trying to score with drunken chicks in Vegas or causing worldwide clusterfucks.

I believe that the whole sentence was a sarcastic comment directed at Bush. The joke part being that had he studied in school well (although, yes, he's got a degree), he would've done a better job, but instead, is now stuck with the mess in Iraq. Or at least that's the way I see it. He's not trying to make this about Bush, since his original statement was about Bush also. It's the first thing he says in his response.

I still say John Kerry was  one of the worst Democratic Presidential Candidates ever.

Losing to George Bush was unacceptable after how horrible Bush's first 4 years were.

I still say he dropped the ball big time.

I am a democrat, have voted democrat for President since I started voting, but even though I voted for Kerry out of loyalty to my party, I thought he was an absolute idiot and a horrible candidate.

Yeh, pretty much agree with you.  but that doesn't change the fact that this statement is being grossly blown out of proportion.

I like John Kerry and think this is just a bunch of bullshit blown just a little tooooo much out of proportion by a bunch of lazy fat ass republicans who have way too much time on there hands...? ::) Im glad to see that Bush cares so much for the troops.

So it's bullshit to call U.S. troops uneducated?

Drew, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.....read what most here are saying.  I'm curious what you think about my question too....do you believe that is what kerry was REALLY saying?  Not WHAT did he say, or how did it come out, but his TRUE meaning, his TRUE thoughts???  be honest.

Hahaha I believe he's due the "You're a towel" treatment.  :hihi:

the world looks very different if you live outside of the US.

HAHHAHA nice  : ok:  I got yelled at last time I did that.  :(

It's like he feels if he says it enough times some of us will start to believe it.  This is junk news as far as I'm concerned.  With so much REAL stuff to talk about like Iraq, N. Korea, healthcare, social security, corrupt congressman, dirty emails....this just is such a non issue in the big picture of things.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?  Iraq, N. Korea, healthcare, social security??? Why would the Republicans care about crap like that when you have (duh, duh, duh) "gays" wanting to be married  :o  or disabled people wanting stem cell research to be legalized so they won't be disabled anymore. 

Dude, you forgot the BIGGEST menace to society....the gay, flag burning, disabled person who wants stem cell research to be legalized.   :rofl:  I mean, who cares about IRAN!!!!!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It's really hard to tell. I mean, I can't go inside Kerry's head and see what he is thinking. All I can do is listen/read his comment.

If anything, he should atleast apologize for saying it.

But wait, if its hard to tell, and you can't go into his mind....shouldn't his explanation be enough then?  An apology would be an admission of guilt...he didn't do anything wrong except mess up his words.

So are you saying that whatever anyone says in the future we should just take it as mis-spoken words if it offends someone?

What he says looks plain and simple to me. I can't see how any of it can be taken out of context and/or mistorted. It is what it is.

From bbc.com on George Bush's talking to god.
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ?" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

So what you're saying is.....I shouldn't look into things......what is in print is the way it is?  In that case holy shit, we have a fruit loop for a president!

the Republican October surprise is......

Mr. John Kerry!!!!

not only did he fumble away the white house for the dems, he may fumble away a second golden opportunity for the dems to win control. it's on a silver platter again, and luckily for the dems, i don't think kerry can piss this one away. but he did destroy some momentum.

Well, in that case, Bush DID mean what he said  :rofl:

i believe kerry said EXACTLY what he meant. for two reasons:

1. Bush has a degree and is educated. so it wouldn't make any sense at all to think that comment was directed at him.

2. i hear liberals criticize the army all the time. they complain that the army recruits POOR high school kids. and that they brainwash them into thinking they do not have any other options in life.

in fact, kerry said exactly what i hear all my far left wing friends say all the time.

(http://policywonk.blogs.com/photos/the_lighter_side_/god_v_bush.gif)

Yes, I guess. Because he probably just mis-spoke and ended up being bullshit and blown way out of proportion.

kerry's response today was pathetic. he brings up Rush to try to remind everyone that we should be talking about that. then he throws out the "strawman" comment. he sounded like a talk show host, not a leader.

then he basically says that as a veteran, he wouldn't criticize our troops. BUT he had no problem stating the following in 1971....

"According to Kerry, some of the 150 veterans admitted they "had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam..."
 ?

thats harsh, but its true.  majority of the grunts or soldiers, whatever you want to call them are there because they dont have a great education.

Is it criticizing to point out truth/fact, even if its grossly unflattering???

I guess we should just bury our heads in the sand when something bad comes along.....like a congressman sending dirty emails to an underage boy?

Sad arguement dude.

In the context of his entire speech, not just that sentence, it was obvious he was trying to make fun of Bush.  Prior to the comment he was doing a series of one liners all making fun of him...why all of a sudden, would he switch gears and rip on the troops??  C'mon, use common sense here.

Your 2nd point is typical republican nonsense....so one guy says something and now ALL of us think it?  Pathetic dude...pathetic.  The Reps will try the same thing tonight but its not going to work.  Kerrys response was classic and dead on.

New AOL.com poll out - was kerrys comments deliberaly insulting or a botched joke...results last time i saw were 54/36.  not as bad as the 70/30 when the question was "was the comment insulting or not insulting".

This is nothing but Repulican desperation creating media-aided hype.  Its very simple: John Kerry made a poorly worded joke about the president and the war.  Its evident in the context and in the delivery.  Its a point hes made repeatedly. He made a joke a few weeks back on Bill Mahers show that conservatives similarly misconstrued to mean he wanted to assassinate the president.  Believe it or not, Bush has a reputation for lacking smarts, and a political rival took a jab about it.  Now the moral of the story may be for Kerry to stop making jokes or get a better writer, but except for a few dim, stubborn folks, everyone now knows what John Kerry meant (even Bill O'Reilly); theyre just feigning outrage and indignation as a last-minute distraction.   

It's alot more than that! And it is simple, it was purely a slap in the face to our troops.

Did O'reilly chime in? what did he say?  I know chris matthews said that reading the full transcript it's clear that Kerry was insulting the president, not the troops. Dick Armey was on at the time with him and essentially agreed and laughed about how funny it was that the GOP was feigning mock outrage.

so kerry's comments were FACT???

can you say blinded? and you accuse others of not using common sense and looking at things fairly. ?:rofl: :rofl:

and many people believe the army is a bunch of uneducated people. see mdttkk's post.

It looks plain and simple because you want to believe it is.  Theres not a single mention of soldiers or potential soldiers in that quote is there?

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

Nope.  Pretty ambiguous subject there.  So its a little less plain and simple, isnt it?  This is where context might be able to solve the mystery.  It came in a anti-Bush, anti-Republican campaign rally speech?  Put it together.


Yes, I had the thrill of waking up from a nap with FOX News on and seeing his opening segment.  He said he doesnt at all believe Kerry meant to disparage the troops.  Of course, he overhyped the potential impact of the story on the elections.  The media has been shameful in this, letting the White House press department dictate whats important and making a big story out of their willful misunderstanding.  And thats all this is - a misunderstanding of a line.  Once thats explained by the author, and it has been, its time to let the story die.  It didnt mean what you thought it did, so drop the indignation act.  If you want indignation, look back at Bushs Def Comedy Jam performance (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ilCWJvRxVJ4).

wait, wait, wait....you're saying some of those things didn't happen in Nam??  Dude, most of that stuff happened at Abu Grab Ass prison!! 

oh and so MDTTKK says it AND Kerry "says" it....yeah that MUST mean most dems/libs think it!!   ::)  sigh.

So one of the biggest Rep/conservative talking heads even says Kerry didn't mean to crap on the troops, Chris Matthews says so too, Dick Armey, a republican, former House Majority Leader, was laughing at the Rep reaction, but Drew and Sandman think its "plain and simple" to them  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Booker, who else could Kerry be talking about being "stuck in Iraq"? It's plain and simple who he is talking about. It's U.S. troops.

Um, the guy he was talking about the ENTIRE REST OF THE SPEECH!!!   :rofl:

i'm saying that if you're gonna make those statements about the troops, you better be 100% certain those things are true. i.e. first hand, eye-witnessed knowledge.

but in case you were asleep in 2004, kerry's remarks were based on second hand info. second hand info that many troops claim isn't true. and these troops were there!

so who should i believe, kerry based on his second hand info; or the troops. who knows what really happened? i have no idea. i wasn't there.

but for kerry to say those damaging things about the troops (and put their lives at risk while he's sitting safe away from the battle field) without first hand knowledge speaks volumes about his character (at that time). ?

Bush isn't stuck in Iraq. He could pull every U.S troop out of Iraq anytime he wanted to with one order.

The U.S. troops are the ones Kerry is talking about!

Your logic is as flawed as RandallFlaggs in the other thread.

You are focusing on ONE sentence.  Kerry was talking about Bush the entire time before that comment was made.  Read his response, read what he said he meant to say, read the rest of the speech. 

And you got to be kidding me that he could pull everyone out with one order.  Really, you're kidding right?  We're NOT stuck in Iraq?  Dude, have you read a paper lately?

Answer me this, from everything you've read/heard about Vietnam, do you think some, if not all, of those atrocities occurred?  Simple yes or no.  Like you said, you weren't there.  Neither was bush or cheney.  Kerry was.  I think you can give him the benefit of the doubt here.  Unlike you and me and the current admin, hes a veteran.  You talk about giving troops respect?  Well Kerry was one, how about showing him a little?

wow, the liberals are bragging about having o'reilly on their side. you guys are desperate.

i think all the repubicans owe Mr. Kerry a big "Thank You". ?:hihi:

not quite as good as some of the gems from 2004 ("i actually voted for the $87B, before i voted against it." ?:rofl:), but this is up there.

Youll often hear during debates that Bush "went to Iraq," meaning he took the country to war in Iraq.  Its not a literal statement, you see.  Neither is it when somebody says Bush will "stay in Iraq."  Not literal.  Bush isnt literally stuck in Iraq, but we all know that Bush is stuck in Iraq.  His stupid decisions have led to this situation in which he and those shaped the policy are stuck in Iraq.  Thus, the crux of the joke. 


And after this, you repeat (as in many of your other posts) "It was the U.S. troops!" as if youre trying to convince yourself at this point.  Ver telling.

Yes, he theoretically could do that, just like John Kerry could theoretically insult U.S. troops for absolutely no reason, or Max Baucus could theoretically throw his cellphone at Kay Bailey-Hutchinson  - he wont.  Again, hes not literally stuck in Iraq.  Politically, he is.  Figuratively, he is.  If you disagree, then its a completely different matter of denial, but you should at least know that John Kerry does believe Bush is stuck in Iraq.  With that understanding out of the way, you can acknowledge the plausability of Kerrys explanation, although you wont, because youd rather make the meaning up yourself.

It's not bragging, it's showing you and Drew how ridiculous you are.  If O'reilly and Matthews (and I'll wager there will be plenty more) are laughing at the GOP reaction, doesn't that tell you something?

And lets not start quoting politicians goof ups.  Bush has an entire calendar of quotes, one for each day of the year.

My logic isn't flawed. Just because you don't agree with me you autommatically claim my logic is flawed. This topic and the other ones. I'm always the one who is wrong and blind.

Yes it is.  When stating "Bush isn't stuck in Iraq" in reference to the intentions of John Kerrys words, you make the assumption that John Kerry is somehow beholden to the opinion of Drew from the HTGTH message board.  Once you realize that hes not of the same opinion, youll be able to understand that your point is moot. 

Funny how I'm not the only one saying it Drew. 

And I DID AGREE with you regarding the stupidity of the words themselves, but I don't think there is anymore point in arguing his true intentions/meanings.  It was a BAD goof up on his part and I'm sure (sadly) he'll take a hit for it.  But it's fun to hear you two desperately try to make something out of this  : ok:

The same kind of assumptions are made every day about the Republicans and Bush. yet those are always right on by most of you(not all) and not ever flawed.

Well you know something HannaHat, I really appreciate your agreement with me on that point.

And the subject changes...

Ive pointed out the flaw in your logic.  All youve done in this thread is desperately try to convince yourself that youre right because you dont like John Kerry and your team is desperate.  Thats all there is to it.  Dishonesty.

funny! I nearly laughed my ass of when i heard this coward say this! but lets see the liberals will spin in to! The Republicans made him say it! bla bla!



<<<<<-------------------------- ONE OF THE KIDS WHO DID NOT STUDY HARD, AND WORK TO GET SMARTERER LUCKY IM NOT STUCK IN IRAQ DOGH!

Not having to convince myself of anything. You assuming "my team" is desperate. There is no "my team". Your assumption is flawed.

You mean the assumption that over 100 US troops died in a war we're supposedly "winning" this month alone, the assumption that there is no clear single strategy in Iraq (nor was there ever one)...or the assumption that certain Republicans are willing to hide the fact that their buddies tend to try to bang underage male pages on their offtime.  Hate to say it, but those aren't assumptions.  To quote that cat in the Paula Abdul video......."it ain't fiction, it's a natural fact."

That number of casualties doesn't even add up to the number of troops lost in both WWI and WWII. And for the majority of those wars we were supposedly winning. Which we did.

You do know Kerry was  D student right?  Bush at least was a C.  Bush has his MBA too, Kerry doesn't.

I agree with Drew, I think what Kerry said was highly disrespectful. Unfortunately, a lot of people share that sort of belief. If I remember correctly, Michael Moore insinuated something similar in Fahrenheit 9/11. It's totally biased. People join the service for different reasons and they're made up of all walks of life. It has little to do with income or education. There's lots of working class people with limited education, but they don't all rush off to fight in a war. There are people who truly want to do something with their lives that'll benefit others. How many people would put themselves in harms way to protect others? It's a rarity and should be respected.

I dont think you get it: he didnt say what you think he said.  You misunderstood it, he clarified it.  He was not talking about U.S. troops.



(http://www.rwf.gr/uploads/photos/Kerry%20in%20Vietnam.jpg)

I'm not anti-Kerry, I voted for him actually. Just wondering why he would say something like that. It's confusing. But if he didn't mean it that way, then that's cool.

He wouldn't.  He was taking a shot at Bush, not the troops.  Read it again if you don't understand it.

The man has 3 purple hearts, 1 bronze star and 1 silver star.  Let's be realistic.

What is Bush's military record again? :hihi:

Find me combat veterans that respect Kerry.? Kerry was a fucking coward who was in the Nam for a month.? He sustained no severe injuries to go with his purple hearts, and had to cry to his Brigade Commander to get his 3rd medal because his direct Commander didn't feel his injury warranted it.? Kerry got the medal so he could get out of Vietnam, plain and simple.? Then the piece of shit comes home and badmouths a war he didn't fuckin fight.? I am a United States Military Officer and Kerry is a piece of shit.? Thank god my oath is to the constitution and not the President cause I would resign if I had to swear allegiance to these pieces of shit.? Kerry is dumber than Bush.? So you dipshits saying his comments were directed at Bush are so fucking clueless it's unreal.? KERRY WAS A D STUDENT IN COLLEGE.? Get it into your heads.? Your hatred of Bush is so intense you ignore the fucking elephant standing in the room.? None of you "liberals" have the balls to serve, you work shit jobs of no real importance and then come hear to spam your bullshit.? Here's a tip, 90% of the dumbshits Kerry was trying to portray our military to be IS YOU and not a one of you is a service member.? Do yourself a favor and get an education.? Then again, they say ignorance is bliss and you dipshits are blissfully happy.

You have to be kidding me.? "Kerry didn't mean what he said", but Bush makes a comment and you distort, contort and exaggerate it to fit whatever conspiracy someone else told you about.? How hypocritical is that?? Pull your heads out of your asses.? I try not to get caught up in this shit, but I am Officer and I have privates under me.? I'll be god damned if I'm gonna let a coward like Kerry degrade them for his political gain.

Are you even educated Hanna?? Do you have a clue as to what logic even is.? South Park's attempt to get across intelligent points to the masses has obviously failed on you.? You haven't a clue, and I'll be damned if I'll be degraded by someone not even close to the same intellectual level as me.

Would you like to see my 214 from the Army stapled to my ballsac or couldn't you quite get that either? ?Seriously people, the comment was intended at Bush, not the troops. ?It doesn't take a fucking F-Student to realize that. ?Who gives a shit about Kerry anyway? I'm not defending his political agenda because it wasn't the greatest, I'm just defending the fact that the man said something that the Repubes got ahold of and tried to make it seem like he was the biggest traitor this side of Benedict Arnold. ?Perhaps its the cons who should stop worrying about educations and try to figure out some common sense? ?Or should I put it in brainwashed jarhead terms.......hoooooooooooraaaaaaaaah *bark bark Devil Dogs

Your elitist attitude is disrespectful.


My grandfather fought in two wars and he was a liberal. So step off your political high horse. No person is better than the next, no matter what party they support. It's ignorant to think otherwise.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/kerry/kerryvets091504st.html 

The rest of your post is typically angry, irrational nonsense.

Journey your grandfather wasn't the same liberal as these yahoos.  I'm not endorsing any party.  Just calling Kerry what he is, a political driven coward from birth.

Right, but you're arguing with people who may feel the same way......only the simple fact is ITS NOT WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED IN THIS THREAD.  What IS being discussed is the comment that was made which sure it wasn't put in the greatest context and can easily be missunderstood by folks like yourself who are so quick to jump on something without putting thought into it.   Your uneducated assumption that no one on this board was in the military was wrong and just puts into perspective the fact that any addition you make to this thread is worth diddley. 

That's the best you can do? ?148 people out of the millions that have served in the time span those members were in. ?All I have to say is that the military is by far supporting Conservative values, and in the 2004 election -Bush. ?In my entire unit, there were 3 people openly supporting Kerry. ?Everyone else was by far for Bush. ?If Democrats were so concerned for our military, why was our pay shit under Clinton. ?Bush has consistently given pay increases across the board. ?Let's not kid ourselves as to what party the vast majority of service members fall into.

Now that you have opened your mouth... maybe Kerry was on to something.

Actually, my friend I am a liberal who tried to serve when I was 19 but was declared unfit due to health reasons. ?I also got a perfect score on every test of the ASVAB while the other 2 people that tested from my recruitment station failed the test (the staff sgt. who recruited me wanted me to lie about my health issues by the way). ?So again try to tell me that all liberals hate the troops. ?

So again I ask, where are Bush's military records? ?You know so much about Kerry's (hell, you even seem to know personally EVERY person he served with) you should be able to tell us all about Bush's productive time spent in the military.

Oh, that's right, he didn't do anything productive in the military but had no issue declaring a war under false pretenses that has gotten almost 3000 US troops alone killed now.

By the way, your lovely display of "tourettes style" language skills plus severe grammatical and spelling errors sure proves your education level to me! ?;)

You, along with everyone else misinterpreting this statement just CANNOT READ. 

Mainly because we weren't waging an impossible war against terrorists that made it quite difficult to keep persons in the military and keep new recruits from joining. ?After I got out in 2002 recruiting was extremely rough because people just didn't want to serve under an idiot like Bush. ?That's why they're offering ridiculous signing bonuses now to keep soldiers and they're promoting them superfast. ?You know how much of a signing bonus I got when I signed up in 98..........$0. ?Now it's up to $30k+ . ?All because of ?the inability to recruit.

I think Bush has disrespected the troops the most by starting this stupid fucking war. Over 2000 US troops have died for nothing. This war is bullshit.

Well, death is the utmost disrespect is it not?  Especially when most of them in Iraq have no idea what they are really fighting for. 

However it's funny........you ask Haliburton what they're in Iraq for.....I guarantee they could give you a few $Billion answers.

Really?  Please details the differences bewteen Journeys grandfathers political beliefs and Dick Durbins,  or maybe Russ Feingolds.


No, but nothing I present will be enough for you.  In addition to those, I could reference the many veteran Democratic public officials that assumedly supported Kerry:

James Webb
John Murtha
Dick Gephardt
David Bonior
Al Gore
Tom Daschle
Daniel Inouye
Charlie Rangel
Max Cleland
Tom Harkin
Jack Reed
Fritz Hollings
Leonard Boswell
Pete Peterson
Mike Thompson
Bill McBride
Gray Davis
Pete Stark
Wesley Clark
Jimmy Carter
Chuck Robb
Howell Heflin
George McGovern
Michael Dukakis
Lloyd Bentsen
Walter Mondale
John Glenn
Tom Lantos
Paul Hackett
Patrick Murphy
David Harris
Tim Dunn
Eric Massa
Andrew Duck
Davis Ashe
Charles Brown
Tammy Duckworth
Bryan Lentz
Daniel Akaka
Jon Corzine
Jim Jeffords
Herb Kohl
Jack Carter

Lieutenant General Edward D. Baca
Lieutenant General Daniel W. Christman
Admiral William J. Crowe
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn
General Joseph Hoar
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy
Lieutenant General Donald Kerrick
General Merrill "Tony" A. McPeak
General John M. Shalikashvili
Admiral Stansfield Turner
General Johnnie E. Wilson

Alexandria Veterans For Kerry (http://veterans.alexdems.org/2004/08/alexandria-veterans-endorse-kerry.html)
New Hampshire Veterans For Kerry (http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/kerry/kerrnhvet111103end.html)
The 60 or so Fighting Dem Candidates (http://www.democrats.org/page/content/fightingdems/nominees/)

Ok do i need to start a list of current Active Duty service members that do not support JK?

Cause let me tell you there were/is alot more Vets that do not support him.

No, Im not interested.  The poster asked for veterans that supported John Kerry and I provided some high-profile examples in addition to the many common voters (I know a few personally) that did.  Unlike that poster, I understand that theres many veterans that do not support Kerry, as well as many that do.

Booker, alot of those names were on the first document posted. ?You're avoiding my point. ?Lefites on this board like to portray the military as either A.) brainwashed morons who can't distinguish between right and wrong ? ?or ? B.) against Bush and his policies. ?The reality is that the military BY FAR supports Bush and the war. ?Right or wrong, that is their stance. ?Personally I was against the war from day one, but we're there now so I'm not going to waste energy disputing why we're there. ?People jump into these discussions calling Bush a moron when they possess little more than a high school diploma. ?Bush on the other hand has two Ivy-League degrees. ?Does that make him super intelligent or right? ?Of course not, but hardly a figure people whom have never taken a college level course can point a finger at as their inferior. ?

The military goes to great lengths to educate the troops. ?Soldiers are encouraged to take higher education. ?US Service Members are neither lazy or stupid. ?In fact, they're quite the contrary. ?Kerry attacked the military, at least that's what his exact words indicate. ?You can distort it to say he attacked Bush, but then he'd be insulting himself. ?Afterall, if a C student fucked up Iraq, what would a D student do? ?Veterans and the military alike are far more supportive of Bush than Kerry, and the polls and statements indicate that. ?That's why Kerry has to stoop to calling them stupid - they just don't know any better.


On a final note, I apologize for my language in earlier post. ?This is a very personal issue to me, and I get quickly aggitated when people would defend the actions of a man who degrades the troops for personal gain. ?Bush is no military hero, but no one tries to portray him as one.

Ahh nothing more educated than saying fuck it.....we're there already...why not just keep fighting for um...........what was it.....um weapons of mass destruction....nope wait that's not it.......hmm Al-Qaeda...oh no wait we pretty much caused that to rage on......shit who cares we're here......LETS KILL!

PS...since you're onto judging people by their performances in school....Theodore Kaczynski was a straight A student and Albert Einstein barely spoke until he was 9 years (they thought he was mentally retarded).  You figure how that worked out eh?

Wow Flagg, and I didn't think you could get any worse then your prejudiced hate speech in the NJ thread about Gay Rights....This hate spewed diatribe littered with foul language and petty insults is just more proof or your true ignorance.  You want everyone to respect the troops yet you shit all over the military service of a Nam vet.  Truly disgusting.  Shit on the mans political career if you must, but you criticize him for serving his country?  You talk of Kerry degrading the troops, what do you think you are doing by calling a bronze and silver star recipient "a coward". 

Then you throw around the word "liberals" and mention conspiracys as if EVERY non-republican believes in that shit or is as left as Michael Moore.  You tell us to get an education?  You should try to just get a clue.  Tell Max Cleland he is a coward liberal.  Tell John Murtha he "doesn't have the balls" b/c he wants a withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

I'm curious who you are referring to as the "lefties" who portray the military in such a poor light.  And who are you referring to that doesn't have anything higher then a high school diploma?  or are these all assumptions you chose to make on your own?  If you don't want to name names, just PM me then. 

Your "oh well too late" attitude with the war is the exact reason we will not win it.  I strongly encourage you to pick up this weeks NEWSWEEK.  there is a FANTASTIC article on Iraq.

. 
Why don't we bust out our college grades and compare and contrast  :rofl:  I like how you try to attack my intelligence instead of discussing what I wrote.  Rather then try to prove "who is smarter" I will simply let you to continue to display your intelligence by lashing out at everyone with a different opinion then yours, cursing every other word, name calling (oooh the dirty "L" word!!!) and your wild assumptions about our jobs, service records, family members and education. 

How can you expect me to respond intelligently to your post when they lack any real thought.? You say I lack common sense, but you deny that being gay is abnormal.? Then you call me anti-gay, when I clearly stated that I support the right of anyone, regardless of orientation to live how they deem fit.? I try to have a socratic discourse with you, but you reply with one liners and smiley faces.? And my assumptions aren't that far off now are they?? One person has claimed to have been in the service.? I've never made any comment about family members, and since most people possess meaningless jobs I thinks it's safe to correlate that to the members of this board.

But since I'm making wild assumptions, have you ever served?  And what line of work are you in?

You never answered my question, though.

That right there shows your ignorance.  Point proven. 

1st off, no one is degrading the troops for personal gain. ?Apparently you just have issues with reading comprehension.

I stated the troops do not know what they are fighting for. ?Do you? ?If so, please tell me exactly what it is specifically we are fighting for in Iraq? WMDs? Democracy for those that never asked for it? ?Does this makes the troops ignorant or brainwahsed? No. ?They are doing their job as they are instructed to do. ?Except their job is a lot harder than most peoples.

Also, please provide statistics and documents to back up your claims (especially the part where you state that most military personnel support Bush and the war). ?Otherwise they are just your opinion and are in fact, useless and just plain ignorant as the rest of your replies seem to be.

Nice defeatist attitude, by the way about your stance on the war. ?You claim you don't support it but since it is already being fought that makes it OK. ?

You make arguments and bring up things that no one previously even stated so in essence you are arguing with yourself.

You attack those you don't know claiming they are uneducated yet you have no clue of anyone's educational background on here. ?You make claims that if someone is a Liberal that they must be uneducated or have a bad job. ?What gives you the right to do so? ?How do YOU know the person answering you doesn't have an MBA or a PHD? ?THINK before you type.

Speaking of disrespecting the troops, I found this John McCain quote to be a bit odd:

"I go out to Walter Reed quite often and see these brave young soldiers who have served and sacrificed so much. Many of them have lost limbs, as you know. And it's a very sad thing to see. But at the same time it's very uplifting."

And the candidate against whom he was campaigning?

(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20061023/i/r1185932748.jpg)

Tammy Duckworth lost both legs in Iraq.

Does that even make sense? Let see here.. You want to compare John Kerry's quote to a qoute from a man talking about visiting wounded warriors? John Kerry does not even compare to John McCain. A real hero! Spent many years in a enemy pow camp! happened to be in that prison camp when Johnny decided to join the Anti-War movement and turn his back on the men he left behind in Vietnam, Throw his medals on the white house lawn (Disrespecting the uniform and men who wear those medals), Take a trip with Fonda to meat with the enemy.. Which was used against many of the POW in Vietnamese prison camps.

This is not the first time the man has shit on his brothers in arms, and im certain it won't be the last.

Did you give this more than half-a-seconds thought?

The odd part isnt that John McCain talked about visiting wounded warriors (glad youre impressed by that - youd be hard-pressed to find a prominent politician that hasnt), its that he talked about while campaigning against one.  Get it?  He mentions soldiers who have lost limbs while, at that very second, campaigning against a soldier who lost two legs and practically an arm in Iraq.

John Kerrys quote was not about U.S. troops. 

I do.. That's why I think the joke about Bush was flawed and _really_ not thought through. But I still believe that that's what it was. A joke about Bush.

To see you go as low as to say you won't bother replying properly just because they're not nearly as intelligent as you, or to use that against people, kinda saddens me, when I compare this to the Randall Flagg I saw at the other 'hot subject' of late. I really think you had some good ideas there based on the information that you had (not saying they were right or wrong, but from your viewpoint they followed a certain logic. But let's not bring that here).


To both sides involved. Do _not_ make this about anything else that it is.. Bringing Vets supportlists (or requesting them), bringing Bush's war records has gone _way_ off topic. It can be said that stuff like that is needed to back up the main argument, but the main argument has yet again been shifted from the topic.

Stay on topic.

No it isn't. Especially if you believe in what you are fighting for. That sure is slap in the face comment to WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korean War veterans and U.S. troops in Iraq. How could you ever say it's just disrepectful all those soldiers who fought and died  in Europe?

Umm Bill... I wasn't the one attacking people's grades to justify a point.? That was John Kerry remember, the reason why the thread was started.? Did I lose you that quickly?

I'm sorry I got worked up and acted like a dipshit, I really am.  But when I see a topic as interesting as this one filled with smiley faces and distortions and assumptions of what Kerry meant or said, I got a little pissed.  Again, I apologize for my choice of words earlier.  It just drives me nuts how people take every word Bush says and analyze and exaggerate it to some secret agenda, but Kerry's words are crystal clear and somehow I don't possess the reading comprehension to understand the TRUE meaning of his words.  At least the Kerry followers are consistent.  No matter who you are, you never mean what you say.   Kerry could shit on a cripple and people here would argue that he didn't do it as a form of disrespect, it had deeper meaning that I can't grasp.


On a side note, Bandita my reading comprehension is just fine.  If someone says they like grapes, I accept that they like grapes.  You however accept that they like watermelon and grapes were just a joke or codeword for something else.  Which one of us is having a hard time grasping critical thought?

Booker, obviously the definition of liberal continues to move further and further left as society progresses.? It was liberal 80 years ago to support the right of woman to vote.? It was liberal to advocate slavery be abolished.? It's now liberal to condone socialism where 50 years ago that was unheard of in this country.? A WWI and WWII vet certainly wouldn't be classifed as a liberal by today's extreme standards.? It used to be Democrats and Republicans both served their country equally, that's just not the case anymore.? Although the term liberal itself can be ambiguous.? I myself am a social liberal, but an economic conservative aka libertarian.? In what aspect was Journey's grandfather liberal and where would his views fall in today's America?? Michael Moore is a textbook liberal, as is Ted Kennedy, George Soros etc.? Would her grandfather aling with these people?? Although I can't say for certain, the odds are highly unlikely due to his career and social era.

The quote obviously was not well thought, no matter which way you look at it.

Let's assume that he meant Bush. Okay... Well, the doing well in school doesn't really apply since Bush did better in school than Kerry. He might have meant that Bush didn't study the circumstanses enough before going to Iraq, but that's a bit streching it, and doesn't really make a good analogy either. Plus I'm fairly sure that if it was on the spot comment, and not from a speech, he wouldn't have that quick. He might be smart, but he's not a comedian. So that's not good and puts him in a bad place.

Now let's say he _did_ mean the troops. Well. This would be equally stupid as the first option, as he was once in the troops himself. He does know how the system works, and he'd be calling himself an idiot for enlisting. And if he's thinking about the party he's in at _all_, he'd know how hurtfull commenting the troops in a negative way would be. I don't think there's a politician in the US who'd say that he hopes that US troops get killed. (I'm sure that some extremists, as horrible as it sounds, actually think this in order to push their political agenda and to make the point clear that it was a mistake to go in.. But I'm 100% sure that nobody would say it out loud.)

So it is pretty clear that he misspoke. It was a dumb comment for him to make.? But to say that Kerry thinks that US troops are stupid, or that none of them went to school, I think, is somewhat inaccurate to say the least. He knows better. Neither of the people in the last election were idiots. But they're easily portrayed as ones (often by idiots) because they're out there so much. They're in the public spotlight and some fuckups are bound to happen. Now the media can always take words out of context (I'd like to see the whole speech in which Kerry made the statement) and turn it anyway it wishes.

This is why I absolutely fucking hate US politics at the moment. These ideas that have actually nothing to do with the actual plans of the candidates are shoved up everyones ass with a shovel because the media and the representatives of both parties think that people are so stupid that they don't want to know about the real agendas, the real viewpoints of the candidates. And judging by these topics that keep popping up (forward and against Bush) the people are happy with the situation and actually make decicions based on these things. They keep talking about a few misplaced words by either party and keep arguing about this instead of asking the real questions. And no, I'm not talking about either party's candidates war record, or where he was at what time, whose grades were a bit better than the other's. I'm talking about the actual ideas that a particular candidate has on solving actual issues like global warming, enivronmental situation, the political situation in the world.... But at the moment it's just shit that gets thrown around and nothing gets solved. The one who throws the most shit (and is better at aiming.. you can't forget aiming) wins and gets to do things their way for the next who-gives-a-shit-how-many years.

Wow..., I don't remember ever posting anything in bold before.

Excellent post, I couldn't agree more.

Nor could I.  You hit the nail on the head Skeba.  It is a shame that the American media sensationalizes stories like this intsead of focusing on the real problems in the country/world.

Flagg, are you agreeing with what Skeba wrote in bold or his entire post (that Kerry misspoke and its inaccurate to think that Kerry was saying the troops are stupid and didn't go to school)? 

I agree with the part in bold and the part above it where either way you interpret his comments, Kerry's an idiot.  His comments were dumb and will definitely have an impact on the DNC next week.  How much of an impact, I don't know.  I'm all about knocking off the bullshit double speak and answering the issues at hand.  That's why I voted for Bill Pierce for Governor of Ohio (not the Democrat or Republican) and left the Senate blank.  None of our politicians want to take a stand on something, and when they do the issue is so moronic that it doesn't even deserve real debate.  I'm a libertarian, so I left alot of choices blank, but all in all be told, I voted for 1 Libertarian, 2 Democrats and 4 Republicans. Until people break away from the two party system and start chosing people that take a soild stance, things are only going to get worse in the US.

Now we are getting somewhere.....I don't like the two party system either.  While I lean more democrat then republican (in case you couldn't tell, hehe) there are A LOT of dems I don't like and plenty of Reps that I do.

No arguing his comment was dumb to say.  Whether or not it effects the midterms - I'm gonna say prob not that much at all.  Maybe if Kerry was president or if he was running, but I think a lot of people just see him as the guy who lost in 2004 and nothing more.  I'm sure the DNC is telling him to STFU though. 

I will say though, to Skeba's point - its pretty obvious Kerry just fucked up and the media is blowing it out of proportion (Howard Deans YEEE HAWW comes to mind as well as an example).  But this is a non issue in terms of the REAL issues facing the country today.  Just as Jim Webb's novels were the top news for the day - this kind of nonsense news is pathetic.  With a week to go it'd be nice to hear the Reps talk about what all the polls say people are concerned about: Iraq, gas prices, War on Terror, homeland security, immigration etc....   Not some dumb comments, not some guys racy passages in his books. 

I'm not saying the Dems are 100% innocent of not making mountains out of mole hills, but when it comes to making non-issues issues its pretty clear who the offenders of this have been the past two weeks.  not trying to start a dem/rep debate, just pointing out that the real issues aren't being discussed unfortunately.

Kerry said something stupid, deserves to be taken to task for it to some extent (not to the extent the Repub propaganda machine is taking it), and should apologize, formally, for mis-stating what he originally and actually meant.? Then, on top of that, he should apologize for trying to be funny because he's bad at it (IMHO...and yes, I'm kidding about apologizing for it...but he really isn't funny).

That being said, the Republicans have said many, many, many stupid things before, too.? And our President is the KING of the "mis-spoken word" and having what he says be completely at the polar opposite of what he means...and some of those things have been offensive, but they were so obviously mis-statments he's gotten a pass.

As for Bush being stupid..he's not.? He's certainly intelligent.? He's just not particularly articulate, and that's why he gets accused of being stupid.?

Looks like Kerry was reading the message board  ;)

Kerry Apologizes:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061101/ts_nm/usa_elections_kerry_dc

This is what he should have done in the first place.  Would have made this a much smaller deal then it was (not that it should have been a big one to begin with, but I digress).  I did like his response thoguh, very strong words and he was dead on about a lot of things, mainly how we're not talkingabout whats really important.  This will be the last we hear from him for at least a week though.

Here is what Kerry claims he meant to say:

Kerry's office said the senator had misread his prepared remarks. They said he had intended to say, "Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

I still think our fellow Republicans here are going to be hellbent on proving Kerry is a troop hater.  I mean as of right now it's the only thing they have going for them.  At this point I think it's impossible for the Republicans to actually try to debate real issues.  Look at their track record going into this election.  They can't magically turn around their glorious fuckups in 2 weeks to make the past 4 years go away. 

Well, Drew said before he can't really say what Kerry meant b/c hes not in his head, and Flagg agreed with Skeba's post that Kerry just misspoke and to say Kerry was saying the troops are dumb and uneducated is inaccurate to say the least.   So I think we can all agree that this really got blown out of proportion and became an issue when it shouldn't have.  Especially in light of REAL issues going on in the world...

Heres some comments from someone at the National Review Online (conservative/neoconservative magazine)

"John Kerry is awful, and anything we can do further to degrade his political prospects is worth doing. But really, I saw a clip of him making the much-deplored remark, and it was obvious that the dimwit in Iraq that he referred to was George W. Bush, not the American soldier. It was a dumb joke badly delivered, but his meaning was plain.  My pleasure in watching JK squirm is just as great as any other conservative's, but something is owed to honesty.  There's a lot of fake outrage going round here," - John Derbyshire, NRO.

I don't know why we can't all agree with that...

Pat Buchanan also just said he knows Kerry wasnt talking about the troops.  He knows this from the context (it came during a series of jabs at Bush) and the delivery (he smirked at the end of the line). 

This is all numbingly stupid.  Kerry explained his intentions behind the comment and the only ones that believe otherwise and are pressing the issue are Republicans who know theyre being dishonest but are politically desperate and people who already dislike Kerry and are willfully ignoring logic.  Thats all this issue is, and the media proves two things: 1) its a slow news day 2) theyre awful.

And here's the fact of the matter when it comes to John Kerry, the democratic party, and their hopes for good results (from their standpoint) on Tuesday:

John Kerry leads nothing in the party. ?He's not a high ranking dem, he doesn't set policy, he has no involvement, really, with party strategy or anything meaningful at all. ?He's a nice face they could trot out during the elections to drum up votes and voter recognition. ?With this, they can stuff him in a closet somewhere, essentially all the candidates can disassociate themselves from him, and really...nothing is lost.

It's a good newsmaker for the Repubs, I suppose, but hardly hard hitting enough to staunch the other news stories out there. ?Heck, it hasn't even trumped or quieted the Fox/Limbaugh story all that much. ?I doubt, given Kerry's response today, that there will be much left of the story by election day, and I doubt it will factor much.

As dumb as this story is...I thought this was pretty hysterical

(http://www.drudgereport.com/irak.jpg)

Theres definitely an irony in troops that dont recognize they werent being called stupid.

I got one question


How the hell did we manage to slip political topics back in?

All I can say is...... Its about time.

Makes the board lively.

I'm curious, maybe you could show us when we actually declared war?

For the most part I think we've been really well behaved in the threads lately.  Sure we bicker heavily, but it hasn't resulted in any serious insults, enough to cause the topic to get thrown totally out of whack.  Look at us all growing up and being big boys (sorry Mr. Foley)!  :peace:

If James Carville and Mary Matlin can be married to each other, it would be pretty pathetic if we couldn't all coexist on a message board for god's sake. 

Anyway, regarding Frankenstein, this is probably the best thing that could have happened to the Democratic Party, because now there's no chance he'll get the nomination in '08.  Praise God.

Thats a bit of a red herring since Kerry wasnt going to get it anyway.

I think the chances of that were slim to none anyway.

John Kerry's arrogance prevents him from hearing his words as an average American would hear them

Wrong.

1. He misspoke.  The line apparently was different on paper from the way he delivered it.  If one misspeaks, theres really no way to consider how it might sound to others.

2. It was taken out of context.  He was delivering jabs at the president in the speech, with no reference to the troops that Ive seen, yet some choose to believe it was about the latter over the former.  The context must be considered.

Its the "average Americans" (assuming you believe that the average American believes the Right-Wing spin on this) laziness, stubborness, and/or gullibility that prevents them from understanding John Kerrys words as he intended them.

Right, a red herring within a red herring.  Welcome to hell.

The U.S. didn't just walk into Iraq with presents and open arms for Saddam Hussein?

I believe Bush also declared war on terrorists and any country who harbours terrorists right after Septemeber 11th 2001.

Thrust into the midst of the midterm election campaign, Sen.
John Kerry apologized Wednesday to "any service member, family member or American who was offended" by remarks deemed by Republicans and Democrats alike to be insulting to U.S. forces in
Iraq.

Six days before the election, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee said he sincerely regretted his words were "misinterpreted to imply anything negative about those in uniform."

In a brief statement, Kerry attacked
President Bush for a "failed security policy." Yet his apology, issued after prominent Democrats had urged him to cancel public appearances, was designed to quell a controversy that party leaders feared would stall their drive for big gains on Nov. 7.

Kerry beat a gradual retreat in his return to the national campaign spotlight. Earlier in the day, appearing on the radio program "Imus in the Morning," the Massachusetts senator said he was "sorry about a botched joke" about President Bush. He heaped praise on the troops, adamantly accused Republicans of twisting his words and said it was the commander in chief and his aides who "owe America an apology for this disaster in Iraq."

Democrats cringed, though, at the prospect of the Massachusetts senator becoming the face of the party for the second consecutive national campaign. "No one wants to have the 2004 election replayed," said Sen.
Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.

I understand the apology from a political POV, esp with elections less then a week away...but the more I think about it, the more I don't think he had to at all.  He is right, hes not the one who should be sorry, the douche bags in the white house should be.

This was such an obvious mistake/goof up of a dumb joke - even the talking heads on the right and the far right think so.  The media is a joke and never should have made this top news yesterday.  I'm sure most of america just heard the sound bite and that was that.  This reminds me so much of Howard Dean, except this won't have an impact on the elections.

Bush is an asshole too, his firey response was just soooooo overblown.  Everyone knows this was just an accident on Kerrys part....

No matter how many ways and times this is explained it isn't going to matter. ?People will read what they want to from it. ?I have been looking for the entire speech so it can be read in context but haven't had any luck finding it. ?


Oh silly me, I thought we were looking for WMDs. ?Oh no then we were looking for terrorists, oh wait, as I remember recently it was fully admitted (by the senate report and 9/11 commission) that Iraq and Sept. 11 had no ties. ?So, what reason is it again?

The fact that this comment was taken so out of context really does speak volumes about the average American, and not in a good way. ?

WMD's (i.e. Sarin nerve gas) were found. And Irag was already known to harbour terrorists before the U.S. led invasion.

 :hihi:

Not even the White House is pushing that silliness.  Thats straying off-topic though.

How can you take Sarin gas with humour and so lightly after Saddam used it to kill thousands and thousands of Kurds?

Dude COME ON.  You've got to be kidding.  This isn't even worth addressing.  So we invaded Iraq for Sarin gas?  I think the hot air blowing out of you is more dangerous.

Hot air? Tell that to the thousands and thousands of Kurds and their families Saddam killed intentionally!

Like this? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ilCWJvRxVJ4)

Great response.  I hadn't seen that before.

Do you honestly mean to tell us that we invaded Iraq over Sarin gas?  Yes or No.

Yes, for WMD's. And Sarin gas was eventually found.

Another politican making a disrepectful comment. Ubsurd! :rant:

But come on, wasn't everyone there making fun of Bush anyways. That's what the Press dinner is for. Make fun of Bush and Bush makes fun of himself. I think I'm starting the same Kerry defense for Bush now. :hihi: ::)

Sarin gas that dated back to before Operation Desert Storm.

But I don't even think you believe what you are typing.  You are just reaching at this point and are totally off topic.

It still is a WMD though and used on the Kurds.

Fuuny that you say I'm way off topic when you are one of several who thru this topic off bringing military records to light. So you need to go back and read your on post before pointing fingers.

War was never declared. Therefore your statement "During a time of war" is false.

They were degraded to the point of barely burning your skin. Similar to a can of insect spray you would find under the sink, hardly a WMD.

Nobody honestly believes that WMD were found. NOBODY.

Than what exactly are troops doing over there if they are not fighting in a war? Their not palying pea-nuckle. The U.S. is fighting in a war. My statement is not false.

mr. kerry on tuesday: "I will NOT apologize."

mr. kerry on wednesday: "i apologize."

he's flip floppin like a fish - just like in 2004.  :rofl:

hillary's comment is the best.  :rofl:

well, good for him

the dems need to organize themselves (yeah, and pins will fly out of my ass) and stick it to the repubs in office, come on, this election is based on the debate between whether we should torture POWs or not! wtf? how can they get away with this...its bad for the US troops, too, tortuing iraqi POWs, because, as soon as they catch one of our troops, they're going to torture him worse than we did them, and that'll blow the morale out of the troops faster than anything Kerry or anyone else says

bring on the critisizms of my patriotism, btw, i've heard it all before ;)

It is false.

We have never declared war.

Bush throwing out slogans is not delcaring war, sorry.

you obviously don't know what you're talkin about, man

[/b]

and here's the source http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html

watch him declare war, if you want...the video is on that site too

next time think before you post some republican propaganda

EDIT: i found more!
[/b]

heres the source--http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

Than what do you call it?

This is called a "Rushie" or a "Drudge", and the process is called "Swift Boating" - phony issues made up for talk show shit heads so the GOP can detract from their own failures. Problem they have this year is that the electorate is made up of less and less morons. Kerry is simply saying what we all know: If you blow it academically coming out of high school and you're poor, your only other choice in a land awash with the GOP's wage busting illegals, is to go into The George Bush Meat Grinder.

If you read his speech it is obvious he was referring to our C Average President. Typical Repig Smear and Cheer job.

BAM! perfectly said :beer:

its sad, isn't it, that our country comes to this?

You don't.

Congress never declared war.

i didn't say they did, slc..does it really change anything, though? we still went in and destroyed the place, then are spending over a billion dollars a week repairing the rubble that our bombs made out of baghdad, this wouldn't be the first time that the bush admin did something illegal without congress' approval

funny that you're stickin so hard to right-wing maniacs, i would've judged you differently by your signature

Maybe you should reread what was written. You seem to be confused.

i guess so, maybe i'm just interpreting it differently...

but this is off topic

Kerry used the joke on the Daily Show a few weeks before and did not screw it up. Here it is:

"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up *getting us* stuck in a war in Iraq."

He just hosed it on that speech and everyone jumped on it. It did sound bad when screwed up. When done right, it makes perfect sense.

He meant W. Bush. Bush's the one stuck in Iraq with his blind and idiotic policy.

man these republicans are so sensitive .....

Okay... This has again gone off topic, and I believe that no one has anything really new to add, especially after Bud Fox's last post which explains everything. Before more wmd or other discussions I'll lock this.