Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I've been hearing too many people comment around the internet, how they dont really care about Chinese Democracy, but they will
probably just download it to see what all the fuss is about..

I dont know about you guys, but this really pisses me off.

The most anticipated album in music history deserves more than some asshole downloading the entire thing, then putting a few songs
they like on their MP3 player  (remember Axl said there will be something on this album for everyone) and never cross their mind to buy
the fucker.

Im not the most technical savy poster here...I do know Ive d/l'ed some songs that have all that NOISE/DISTORTION going on...
Im sure the record label will do something like this, but I say we do it on a much bigger scale thats never been seen before and
that the record label couldnt do without our help.

It's a fact some downloaders will give up after 1 attempt, some after 2, some after 3, etc.. etc....I think we could weed out a big % of this
problem, if we were to put at for example 10-20 fucked up versions of each song out there (different sizes, different descriptions, etc).

Perhaps on the P2P networks and the more popular torrents (I dont even think I know what a torrent is).

Of course we'd have to wait for the tracklisting to come out.

I doubt Merck would care since he only manages, but maybe word could spread and the record label would even give us a 30 sec snippet
of each song (followed by the noise) to help distribute a week or so before its released.

We'd need some server space, some music editors, some knowledgable people, idea people, and just any random joe out there that'd be willing to
SHARE these jacked files with the online community.

What do you guys think?

its been discussed before to death, but even in this day and age, people would rather have a cd in their hands....piracy is rife and unstoppable...it can be minimised, but not stopped....but it won't hurt album sales.

as far as pre-release promotion is concerned....i don't think that's the best way...although we did get those leaks earlier in the year...remember????

Very honourable, however totally unrealistic, that is only my opinion of course....

There are P2P networks all over the world. As an example Piracy isnt half the problem in the USA and Western Europe as it is in Eastern Europe(a huge GNR fanbase) Where people earn very little.

I know not at all connected, but as a stat I read last week that CD Purchases in India account for 90% pirated material.

The main problem is that for years and years buyers were ripped off, a CD including all manufacture, booklet, back Inlay, Jewel case and distribution costs less than ?50p/ ?70 cents / $91cents ?I worked in that industry for several years. If they had been sensible in their sales prices, there would be alot less piracy. Burning CD's is now part of modern culture, it simply isnt seen as a criminal offence.

I dig what you are saying DaNutz, however this will be fucking har to pull off. But what the hell I'm at your service if you wanna give it a shot.

who cares about piracy? every other album released is being pirated and put up on all p2p programs.
don't worry. if the music is good, the people will buy the cd.

it will get multi platinum just out of curiosity of the rock fans in general and gnr old fans

if you alienate all the downloaders then you're going to have even less people buying it.

some people will like it, some wont. deal with it.

why do you give a shit about sales figures anyway? if you enjoy it that should be enough.

I'm up for it.
I dont want some fuckers damaging the GNR experience.

I say, lets fake-up every possible file sharing program.

remember the fact that in some countries prices of foreign cds are just too big... not everywhere is so great...

I'll download it first to see if I like it, there's no harm in that  : ok:

cmon.
cds are all over the world in the range 10-15$
everyone who can afford internet can afford to buy a cd.

Yes, the day I open GN'R my first thought will be to rush to my computer, upload a bunch of "jacked" files to a sharing program, and fuck up all those communist BASTARDS who try to download the album! Take that you 15-year-old FASCIST! Hi-yah!

 ::)

Wouldn't it be easier to just listen to the music and let the music producers and Axl decide how to protect the music from being freely distributed? It's going to happen either way. A few die-hard fans sharing fake titles isn't going to change much - there are already thousands of fake files out there floating around on P2P. The people downloading from torrents are going to know what's real and what's not. As soon as a fake torrent is downloaded off sites like TorrentSpy.com it can be reported and people leave comments saying it's fake.

Besides, downloading music for free is wrong but hell, at this point I figure as much exposure as this band can get is great. I mean, if a 14-year-old who would never buy the album is curious about this new album he's hearing about, and he decides to download it, and he falls in love with the music, then becomes a GN'R fan and goes out and gets all their albums, then I figure it was worth it.

Actually you're wrong. CDs can be very, very expensive in foreign markets. The equivalent of close to $100 dollars I've read. I was in Poland and they were about $40 - $50. And you'd be surprised how many people really don't have advanced technology in those types of countries.

I know sure as hell that if I bought as many CDs as I'd like I'd be out of money in a few days, and I have very fast speed Internet access.

We don't want Axl and Guns N' Roses having the same treatment that Lars did for Metallica's court battle with Napstar.

Then again, if any of you visit the Metallica site you can download authorised full concerts including old stuff from the early years. Would be nice if GNR would be so forthcoming.

Agreed, its a nice idea in theory and I'm sure we all want the album to kick ass in terms of sales (moreso in terms of sound but...). 

But you can't stop downloading/piracy - its just a part of the biz now.

If CD lives up to the hype, people will want to own it on their own. 

I agree. Downloading is impossible to stop, but if people like what they hear they will go out and buy it.

I so agree. I constantly get in huge arguments with people I know in the record industry. Their stance if (ofcourse) that the downloaders "are ruining the music industry".

I take the opposite stance. I feel that ever since the invention of recordable media people have been trading music. Its the quality material that gets purchased. Period.

If the music industry wouldn't constantly put out CRAP product, their record sales would be much higher.


"In the end all that matters is if the finished article moved you or not, there's nothing else that's important"
-Roger Waters

I don't care

If i can get something for nothing, i will

Agree for instance here, even though we have CD's at $10 or $15 they are made in Argentina or Colombia but if you want the original it would cost like $50 or $40 it's nuts though I've buy albums at that cost cause I'm a freak of CD originals

In some ways pirated help artist or the band to get more popular.
Imagine.someone who doesnt like rock music.and didnt like GN'R at all.and he buy the pirated CD's because its alot more cheaps.and he start to like GN'R and become fans.

Who cares if someone downloads Guns N' Roses's new album? Do you really think Axl is in desperate need of money?
This would be a completely different thing if this was a new upcoming band with their debut album, but this is Guns N' Roses.
Yeah, I would disagree with this if I was working for the record label, but im a fan of music, so I think it should only be about the music. It stops being art when you do it for the money.
Some decide to buy it, and some dont. That's just how it goes.

 :rofl:

$50 for a CD is insane so I can almost sympathize with the downloading. ?But if you have access to the internet you should be able to order a copy from another country. ?I can't see the shipping being that much. ?

I wouldn't go as far as to hold 50 messed up files on my computer.? That is not our job.

this is a completely lame idea.

first of all, why do you want to help support these music industry dinosaurs when there are plenty of great up-and-coming musicians who HAVE figured out how to make money in this new market (e.g. www.rhymesayers.com)?????

second, anyone who is going to download the entire album is gonna go to IRC or torrent where the cd will be released by ripping groups who have consistent quality, etc.  Most people don't waste their time on p2p networks (and those people who do the p2p thing are likely to be casual fans who aren't going to buy the cd anyhow, they just want a couple of songs heard off of the radio).

Really, what this industry is learning is that $ is made through touring and merchandise, not record sales.

download on, montherfuckers : ok: : ok: : ok:

True, when they go on torrent and newsgroups they are put up properly with artwork.  If I was going to download an entire album this is where I would start.  Not P2P simply because of the virus issues, etc.

But I still intend to buy a hard copy. 

Perhaps if artists received more than 2-10% per record sold (I believe Metallica and Ani Difranco, because of her distribution, are on the high end at 12% and 16%, respectively) then this dead horse argument would still be vital.  The most effective way you can truly choose to support those artists whom you feel are most deserving is to go see a show, buy a t-shirt.

Yes, but while they may receive the bulk of their money from shows and merchandise, record sales and chart stats are still important to an artist.  So while you might not be giving money to the actual band you are still supporting their popularity by actually buying the album-

If a bands album does well they will want to do shows, if everyone is downloading the music from P2P and other ways that cannot be tracked well then how is an artist to get statistics on whether they did well?

I know it's a business but in reality it is all tied in.  GNR isn't doing that great with ticket sales right now probably partially due to the fact that there is no album to support.  If they had one that was topping the charts the venues would be selling out.

So you don't realy know what is it like to live in some places in middle east europe. For example cd from USA cost us around 20/25 $. When somebody has 3 $ pay hour work - he's a person with 10 years work experience and college behind him... so... you know nothing

Thanks liesin and Lucky, but looks like the majority agrees its impossible to have any significant impact.

For those of you that think its your right to d/l music, just because it's become so acceptable in this society,
you cant be more wrong....Any writer, artist etc, should be able to sell their "product" at whatever
price they choose and whether you can sample their product for free should be up to them...If you think
it costs too much, then don't buy it and certainly dont use price as an excuse to steal it.

I used to download all kinds of games...But then again I was 13-17 yrs old...Im sure when some of
you little punks grow up, and perhaps write your own software, make a movie, or sell music on a professional
level, you may see the light....

Bandita, the fact that GNR ticket sales are not doing well is based ENTIRELY upon the fact that there is no record.  That has nothing at all to do with chart position, and everything to do with the fact that this is now the 3rd time that the band is beginning a tour with no product out, and the idea of seeing what is largely perceived as yet another nostalgia tour(at least at the moment) may be growing thin on the fans.
Judas Priest can release a record that barely charts, yet can still count on selling out arenas all over the world.  Regardless of how an album does, if a promoter feels that an act is worth the investment and capable of filling arenas, there will be interest.

From a fan's point of view, the album doesn't have to be a huge seller, there simply needs to be an indication that the band is actively moving forward and releasing new material, thus, the show will be a bit different from the last time they were in town, and there is a guarantee that at least a handful of new material will be presented.

I have never and will never buy a "CD" (these are not actually CDs, CDs with damaged quality for "anti-piracy" are not allowed to use the Compact Disc logo as they don't meet the standard since they're damaged goods) using intentional errors to stop copying, nor will I buy ANY cd with copy prevention software. Take a look at Sony's rootkit. That's just one example as to why NO ONE should support this shit. If Chinese Democracy has any such crap on it I'll download it - because NO copy prevention system works and it WILL get online no matter what - and I'll mail Axl 10 or 15$.

I do NOT want to see this album infested with that kind of garbage. There's a couple good albums I'd like that I don't have because of this. And I rarely download. But I don't want shit that won't work in my car/won't work in my old player/won't work in my portable player/can't be ripped to MP3/may fuck up my PC (and probably will fuck you over it you use a MAC)/may contain backdoors, rootkits or trojans. The record labels can go fuck themselves. Until "piracy" became widespread CDs here were 20$+. Now suddenly they're 10$ and the labels are doing just fine (although they cry like it's the end of the world but fuck them, they got greedy, and I'm not supporting hypocrites who sue little girls while practicing illegal price controls anyway).

"Any writer, artist etc, should be able to sell their "product" at whatever
price they choose"

the artist do not choose the price, the labels do. The labels in the past few years have been taken the court MULTIPLE times for illegal pricing practices under anti-trust laws. Universal and others have paid MILLIONS of dollars in settlements so that they don't need to admit guilt.

Downloading is the best form of promotion a band can get.

Oh, and I've written my own software and have seen it pirated (I don't even bother having an annoying serial number, it's easier not to piss customers off with "protection"), and I really don't give a shit. Because there's two types of people - those who download it and will maybe buy it, and those who would not have paid in the first place.

Thats a shitty attitude.

Outsanding post. AMEN to that.
Fuck the labels, long live to music. Oh and btw, you can be sure that if people download the album and they like it, they will eventually buy it the next time they stop by a record store.

Because there's two types of people - those who download it and will maybe buy it, and those who would not have paid in the first place.

You forgot the 3rd type: Those who just go out and buy it....(those who download it and will MAYBE buy it...what a bunch of shit that is.)

Also its irrelevant that the label sets the price, because the label owns the rights to the album..Not the downloaders.

Whether downloading is the best way to promote something, may or may not be true...It still does not give people the
right to download if the artist/label do not want that, just because some guy on the internet thinks he has the right
to demo it because some big corporation is charging to much.

Those settlements were based on labels telling retailers there was a minimum that they HAD to sell the CD for: thus
price fixing....Other than that they were free as all hell to sell the CD to the retailer for whatever price they wanted.

Its no different than an author writing a book, having the publisher charge $50, somebody scanning it, and letting others download it
illegally..They have every RIGHT to charge whatever the fuck they want...You have no right to download it if they dont want you to,
just because they can't stop you.

You guys need to stop referring to Chinese Democracy as the most anticipated album of all time.  It's not.  The UYI albums had much more anticipation about them than Chinese Democracy does.  The countdown to the release of those albums was HUGE.  That will not be the case here guys.  CD may be the lbum you anticipate the most, but certainly not by the masses.

well i live in fuckin east europe(serbia) and new gnr album will be in our stores more than 15 days after rest of europe,and please tell me how can i wait these 15 days to listen chinese democracy(album which i wait since 1991).
I will download it from internet,and after 15 days i will buy 5 copies(one for home,one for car,one for keeping,and 2 for my friends).

Sorry Axl but i have to do it

I personally see no problem with that...If you know you'll buy it 100%, then I guess your not going to hell.

I think one of the best things they could do is include bonuses with the disc purchase such as DVD or videos on a disc or other multimedia content or what not, or documentary footage or interviews..
also perhaps different versions of the album available with bigger booklets perhaps?

Beck is doing something cool with his new album, by letting the fans create the album art work. that is very cool.  i posted that article in the bad obsession section here:
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=35431.0

well i said 15+ days,romania is neigbourh of serbia,and you will be in EU next year,and serbia will be for 3+ years in best case.I think that it is not bad if we will download it,because we will buy new cd.
I'm going to romania in the end of september.

WELL PUT MOTHAFUCKA!!! : ok: : ok: : ok: : ok: : ok:

For me, it's about wanting the finished product in my hands, to be seen, listened to, and read as the artist intended.  The music itself is the most obvious and immediate reward, but for many, the packaging elevates the music itself into a larger concept or art form...take the last Tool album, for example.

As of now, I'm all for hearing new GnR before it's released.  After all, it's been a long damn time without hearing anything, and wanting so badly for the album to come out.

Even if I were to download every song - which I won't if the possibiliity presents itself, as I want to be surprised by new material, heard properly and as intended for the first time - I'd still buy the album.

That being said, I refuse to purchase "copy-protected" CDs.  Between my ipods, computers, and other players, I *always* back up my music and make a copy of an album I really enjoy.  Moreso, I pass good music on to friends not to "steal" music, but to turn them onto something they may not have sought out on their own, music that they may eventually buy themselves.

Anti-piracy is a sound concept, but so very, very dangerous to execute without turning people further away from the music.  I'm being an indealist, I know, but let the music speak for itself - pirated or not - and if it's good enough, if it strikes a chord with people like good music should, then sales will follow, no matter what form they may take.

oh god I wish they were that price, they are wayyyyyyy to expensive over here,. I only buy cd's of the bands I really want to support....

Yeah, and Im sure they will buy the cd when it becomes available. I know I will. I might download it first if I cant make it to the store right away. But first chance I get to pick up the original I will do so.

I downloaded SAW and bought the movie so don't tell me it's a bunch of shit. As a publisher I've had people tell me that bought my software BECAUSE they downloaded it first. Now, that's a few bucks for shareware and not really how I make my money but it's first-hand proof.

Umm, welcome to the concept of a LIBRARY. And Google's book project.

Copy prevention has nothing to do with stoping downloads. It's basically the industry's way to try and get people to buy things twice. Certain record execs have admitted this, with one saying (this may have been ex-RIAA head Hilary Rosen, but I can't remember for sure) "why should you be allowed to make MP3s from your CD?" - they want you to pay twice. Yet for years the record label said they wouldn't replace defective CDs because "you pay for the content, not the media."

"Other than that they were free as all hell to sell the CD to the retailer for whatever price they wanted."

What is your point? The industry was caught price fixing. Apple has accused them of unfair pricing. They were also caught price fixing in other online stores. They were caught price fixing in the UK. They were caught LYING about statistics as they relate to sales. You see a pattern here?

Downloading, where I live, is legal (there is no law against the copying of a recorded work for personal use, even if given to someone else, so long as profit is not involved, although the industry is lobbying hard to change this). Yet CD sales here have rebounded due to better prices. Gee, wonder if that's a coincidence?

  But ya see, that's the point of this thread.  There is a massive group of people in the media ready to tear down GNR before they even release music.  I'd bet you they actually have reviews written and prepared already!  I'd help out in any way I could by putting slightly defective copies of CD out there to fuc& with people stealing the album.  In all reality, the more successful the album is, the more likely we are to get more music.  I am realistic though, it would have minimal effect.  I am just saddened by the media personalities' inability to judge the album on its merits. 

One thing I do agree on after all of this, is that the CD itself should not be copy-protected.
That way once purchased, your free to put in on your MP3 player or computer to listen to.

I'll personally be buying just 2 copies..one for the home and one for the car.

your all going to download it anyway when it leaks. I cant imagine ever caring about how well an album sales. Thats the last thing on my mind when I think about music. I dont friggin care how well it does, if i like it, thats all that matters.

Chinese Democracy deserves to be downloaded no less than any (decent) album.

Exactly. I find it funny how nobody has a problems with this ever untill Axl puts out an album and all of a sudden it's a travesty.  :rofl: I download shit but it's always a  test run. It's a great way to sample a disc before you buy. 99.9% of the time if I like what I download I go out and buy it and 99.9% of the time I download somthing if I don't like it I delete it off my PC anyways. That .1% that I don't go out and buy it is when it's not available in the stores so I'm justified that way ;D.

If Chinese Democracy is the most anticipated album of all time then I'm Jesus himself. The most anticipated ever on GnR messageboards the world over is slightly more accurate.

Well lord, I wonder why the music press often uses that phrase if that's not the case?

Ironic how people here say the music press "Talked shit and dont know what they were talking about" when it comes to GnR, but when they say somethink positive about the band like "most anticipated album" then people start quoting them and they are all of a sudden right.

yea, and honestly, I don't know a single person (aside from my self and all you other internet guns freaks) who gives a flying fuck about the new GNR album...

it's definately NOT the most anticipated album of all time.  I wonder what the most anticipated album of all time was

Nobody cares about Chinese Democracy except us. Not to say people won't care about it, but lets just say nobody really thinks about it all that much during their day to day routine.

Who cares who downloads it? More people will download Eminem's new album and more people will buy it too. Don't get excited. If it does well with the critics and has a good couple of singles, it'll do well. If doesn't then it won't. Either way, downloading will have little effect.

I wasn't saying they were right. Seeing as there's no way to measure something like this and say what was or wasn't the most anticipated album ever, there's no point in arguing it.

My point was that it's not just the people on this board who've said it.

The White Album?  Pearl Jam's "Vs.?"  I sense a separate thread coming on...

Seeing as there's just no way to decide something like this, I wouldn't see why we'd have a seperate thread to discuss it.

If the leaks/demos that have been released are any indication of what Chinese Democracy will be then I will only be downloading it.

youve got to be kidding me right?  :no:

I've got to assume thats a joke.

In all honesty...it's probably just the music press doing what they do best. Saying what they think people who read their work want to hear.

As a small aside, I honestly and truthfully feel that Chinese Democracy, if it ever sees the light of day, is going to be a deep album and will probably go over a lot of people's heads. It probably won't sell Appetite or UYI type numbers, but will be more like Led Zeppelin's Presence, which sold terribly but amongst hardcore Zeppelin fans is considered one of their best, most challenging albums and their great undiscovered masterpiece. Not saying that as a bad thing but 10 years down the line I see the hardcore GnR fans saying 'man...what a great album it's a shame that it went over so many people's heads because there was some groundbreaking stuff on there...'

Those are always my absolute favorite albums by any band. Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd is an amazing album, but totally overshadows what I think is a far superior album which is Animals...if you catch my drift.

I gotcha. I feel the same way. As far as Floyd goes, I could name about 5 albums besides Animals that I find to ber superior to DSOTM, but for some reason that's the one everywill know. I agree with you that CD will be the same way.