Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Seriously I wonder how he's managed this. Especially when you consider U2 has already had a bunch of songs leak for thier new album. Mind you the quality isn't great but still. U2 is like the biggest band in the world and even they can't stop leaks and they've only been recording for a few months. So I ask you how in the world did Axl manage to keep this under wraps for so long?  It's a bit odd. ???

Alright I'll say what everyone is thinking but is affraid to say. Is it possible that was nothing even recorded untill 2006 or late 2005? Why did The Blues or Madagascar never leak? The new songs leaked this year and sudenly the album is coming out. It could be possible that the album never really existed untill this year.  At least not in the form of having anything concrete actually recorded. Maybe The Blues and Madagscar were never actually recorded. Just a  thought. ???

Maybe only people he really trusts have any access to the music? I'd imagine that only Axl has access though.

Since we've seen 3 or 4 versions of the same leaked tracks, it may, and I mean MAY have been intentional.

It's all just speculation after all. The GnR camp may have actually intended for these tracks to get leaked. Then again, it may have been a simple case of shit luck that the same few songs, with different recordings, were released on the net.

That is, of course, excluding that whole checkmate thing, which we won't even talk about. Please, I beg of you, lets just forget that song ever existed.

To this day I still can't play chess. Not like it was on my to-do list, but regardless.

I think the leaks were orchestrated, as a feeler for the upcoming tour (decide which songs to play live by fan reaction) and CD release (decide what songs are put on the first album)

Then again, it could have been a case of pure coincidence.

Many artists that i have spoke to have told me that they leaked their songs. Why? mainly cause they feel if anyone is going to leak them it should be them. I know it doesn't make sense but that is what was told to me many times.

Your a few months with this, and I believe the leaks were intentional so.....

For me it would cannot be a coincidence that Axl suddenly appears in public, names Better in an interview at the Korn party when days later the tracks incuding Better are leaked, then more public appearances followed by a tour featuring these songs..

The 2002 Boston radio promo had soundboard recordings of Maddy, Blues and CD.

Live though right? Not actual studio leaks.

I'm pretty sure they sounded like Studio clips.

Sounded more like studio tracks IMO.


Ron says that he heard the songs on a laptop only once to learn the songs for the tour,you can see that is like a
''top secret project''.

definitely studio tracks.

I had no idea there were people that thought that Boston promo was soundboard clips.You can tell by that CD intro that its studio.

Bono, theres' no way these demos are from 2005-2006. Impossible. BH is on them, so its definitely 2000-2004, most likely being 1999-2001. Oldest being CITR of course. How on earth more hasnt leaked, I have no idea. Axl must do much of the recording at his house. I guess its always possible that a bandmember with a few old recordings decided to leak those. :nervous:

Chinese Democracy sounded fucking great on that promo... A shame it didn't last longer  :drool:

the 3 extracts (chinese democracy, madagascar and the blues) sound huge...

No.

Proof: Oh My God and the Sweet Child O' Mine in the Big Daddy movie were released in 1999. So they've recorded before that. There's even articles that mention producers working with the band and so on.




/jarmo

I have nothing to back it up, but somehow I kind of think Better is a 2003 demo. Some parts might've existed even back in '97 for all we know, but it kind of strikes as more 'modern'. It's quite funny Axl has mentioned The Blues, IRS, TWAT and CITR back in 2000 and Maddy was made known in a roundabout way back in '99. But never a word on Better. Considering how strong a track it is, I find it a bit funny.

As far as the band member leaks go, I'd say that would be plausible, but only with instrumental tracks. When Finck left in '99, he publicly stated that no vox had been recorded. But Axl had laid down his vocal tracks, he just kept them so safe even the band members probably didn't hear them. He likely recorded them in his home studio, a sealed enviroment, to prevent leaks. Without his voice, it would be hard to prove leaked tracks to be GNR material.


It's been rumored quite a bit that Axl, after recording extensively with Sean Beavan, and later with Roy Thomas Baker, re-recorded most of the material working as the head producer, from 2003 onwards.

Rolling stone 2000

Imagine Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti remixed by Beck and Trent Reznor, and you'll have some sense of Axl's new sound.

Song after song combines the edgy hard rock force and pop smarts of vintage Guns N Roses with surprisingly modern and ambitious music textures. In addition to the album's almost grungy title track, tentative song titles include ''Catcher in the Rye,'' ''I.R.S,'' ''The Blues'' and ''TWAT,'' which he says stands for ''there was a time.''

Another song, called ''Oklahoma'' - heard tonight only as an instrumental - was inspired by a court date with ex-wife Erin Everly. ''I was sitting in my litigation with my ex-wife, and it was the day after the bombing,'' Rose remembers with a wince. ''We had a break, and I'm sitting with my attorneys with a sort of smile on my face, more like a nervous thing - it was like, 'Forgive me, people, I'm having trouble taking this seriously.' It's just ironic that we're sitting there and this person is spewing all kinds of things and 168 people just got killed. And this person I'm sitting there with, she don't care. Obliterating me is their goal.''

I think that too. Some kind of viral marketing. Suddenly they were available, then they disapeared from the net. And now they're played during shows.

Axl has managed to stop the leaks so much by not leaking them any more.  : ok:

Well,was it coincidence that Gnr leaked tracks was tracks which they played on tour

something strange

I got killed at another forum for suggesting that the band leaked the demos themselves but I don't see it any other way.

As far as the actual topic of how the leaks slowed, I think once management made it clear that they did not want them played on the radio I think the sensation about them died out immediately. For example, that whole first weekend where everything was leaked there were torrents at every site with the leaks zipped together w/ The Blues, CD, Maddy and so on. Those all had like 800 - 1000 seeds and leechers at any given time. But as soon as they stopped getting played / talked about on the radio it all died off.

Same. I've always believed they were intentional. If they weren't, why did they leak now and not before? Why did they leak a few months before a tour in which the only new songs played were the ones that leaked?
Ever thought that maybe they wanted to see our reaction to their new music?

Yep. I cannot see how people would think that the band wasn't behind the leaks. I mean Axl shows up at a party, says "people will hear music this year" and within three months new music is leaked. COME ON!  :)

Wow, there are leaks of U2 New Album already ?

Axl leaked the songs - he wanted to gage the public's opinions of some of the new material - he's probably read all of our comments on this forum and others too

The real question is whether or not he will leak us a couple of more before the CD comes out. I think at this point, It would be very smart of him to get another one of these tunes out there - last time he did it, I would say he created quite a buzz

Here's my theory du jour:

The tracks that leaked leaked BECAUSE of the tour, but not directly from the band.

It's no secret they were looking for another guitar player.  My suspicion (wholly unfounded and speculative) is that those tracks (IRS, Better, TWAT...Catcher, I think came from somewhere completely different) were shared with prospective guitar players so they could "audition" them for Axl, Tommy, the band, or whoever was making the decisions.  Somebody was either careless with the tracks, "lent" them to the wrong person, OR decided to release them anonymously themselves. 

Again, that's my wholly unfounded, speculative, bullshit theory....

Most likely theory is that the album isn't done yet.? The tracks have not been finalized, the CD is not being mass produced, etc.

Once the album hits those stages, all the tracks will surface one way or the other.? Bank on it.

I think it's absurd that anyone would think the leaks weren't leaked by the GNR camp!

I think ?the songs leaked this year ,
becouse Axl kept them in a safe place , IMO I dont think that he hide the songs from band members , but he didnt gave the tracks to people who he not trust 100%.
this year Axl return to the public and he says the albom will be this year , if they realising albom this year so more people have accsess to the tracks - more opportunity that the songs will leak.


maybe the band standing behind the leaks , after the whole years they can be curios
about the reaction to the leaks , especially before the tour .

Well, here's the thing:

I've had conversations with those that helped leak, or participated in leaking (not the original source of the material, mind you), the tracks.

I've gotten pretty intimate details about their contact with GnR management and the GnR camp, after the fact. ?And, given the response of those people (like, ya know, Merck), and how pretty pissed off they were...and given how voraciously they went about trying to trace the leaks back to their "source", I'd say it stands to reason they (meaning the GnR camp) didn't leak them directly.

I mean, I guess you could try to make the case Axl did it, directly, without letting management know...and then tried to cover it up, etc....but...I don't know...it just doesn't seem to hold much water, ya know?

I also believe management didn't initiate the leak.

It's always been my opinion that whoever leaked IRS, TWAT, and BETTER wasn't aware of the status of these songs because they aren' huge GnR' fan like most of us. I think someone (executive at Geffen or somewhere) gave someone a cd with a bunch of various upcoming songs done by various artists. When Axl mentioned the names of the songs in an interview with RS that's when they realized what they had and leaked them.

How CITR comes to play, I have no idea, but it doesn't come from the same source as the other three.

yea, but of course they're going to deny leaking them.  the whole point of a 'leak' is to make people think that have some rare illegal bootleg material that they shouldn't have, so they pass it along and write a bunch of crap (free publicity) on internet forums.

Every band's material "leaks" before the album is officially out, but you notice 9with the exception of the radiohead demo disk), that these 'leaks' are ALWAYS either incomplete or really shitty x-gen quality, so that it offers a sample of the music (like the clips on amazon.com) but people still have to go out and buy the whole thing.  Plus, it helps stop the spread of 'reall unoffical leaks' because it's harder to spread shit when you have different copies floating around, half of which are fake.

I'm well aware of all that.? BUT, considering what actually went down on management side...it wasn't just a denial.? Usually that type of denial is followed by inaction.? They deny they leaked the material and then sit back and watch it spread.? That's not what happened here.? Not by a long shot.? They were pissed (or damn fine actors of being pissed) and there was certainly some action.  Managment tracked down some of the posters/people involved.  They spoke to them.  They...hmmm, how best to say this...they IMPLIED there might be consequences for not cooperating and divulging the information the posters/leakers might have on the subject. 

Again, having gotten the gory details from those involved on "our" side of things, dealing directly with those on "the band" side of things.....it's tough to come away with the impression that management, at least, had anything directly to do with, or any direct knowledge of, the leaks prior to their occurance.? I think the response I read here on the boards (via Mysteron, I think) was that they "knew a leak was possible, but were hoping it didn't happen".? Something like that.? I'd say that's an accurate description, all things considered.

^^^but pilfrek, you don't really 'know' who leaked the songs....

perhaps the person 'on our side' was someone in management, trying to fool you into thinking that this was a big illegal undercover operation

the whole point of a leak is to try and create this kind of hype.

now, answer this, why did the 3 original leaks (irs, twat, better) become part of the new setlist?  and, why didn't CITR (which was obviously leaked from another source - and this likely an 'unofficial' leak) end up on the setlist???

all of the cards point to this being an offical 'leak'

I don't know who the original source of the tracks was, no.

I do know those that helped disseminate them, and those that got them first and got them on the boards.

No, I know who the people were on "our side".? I met all 3 of them at the NYC gigs.? I've known/been friends with 2 of them for about 4 years now (wow...can't believe it's been that long).? They're not "undercover" people....well, they weren't when this whole thing started, at the very least.  And they aren't now, I don't think.  What went on during the whole "search for the source/more leaks", after management contacted them directly?   Who knows.....

And I posted my theory, above, about why those 3 songs were leaked and ended up on the set list.? They leaked from someone who was auditioning for the spot that Bumblefoot got.

I never thought of that. Is that part fact? That sure would make some sense.

^^no, just speculation

I doubt that anyone would be handed copies of GNR tracks unless they were under contract.

It's still really good speculation though!

The leaks were not intentional.

Once they were leaked Axl most likely just decided to play those tracks as a treat for us hardcore fans that had already heard them anyway. Axl knows how long people have waited.

you just said "treat".  haha

ohh fuck, i am dead...

inside joke, these people won't get it. :hihi:

Hence the instrumentals, make sense. What about CITR?

I do too.  I find it hard to believe that Axl would not have made sure his music was under lock and key. 

if it was me in that position, I'd download the leeks myself to see what versions people were talking about.... :P

I remember the leaks started with a simple post by a guy called Wes on MyGnRForum:

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=61733

I'm certain there was no mention of these leaks before this on any forum.
It was his first post and he just said he's had IRS, Better and There Was A Time demos. He didn't seem to realise the significance of it, it was casual. Nobody believed him, I posted on page 2 calling it bullshit but the next day, I think, IRS leaked.

You guys probably know about him already but what is interesting is that he said he's had them since November 2004. Why would he have them if management leaked them. Has it ever been proved who this Wes guy is?

Incidentally, everyone's reaction, including mine is so funny in hindsight.

argh,

i was on mygnrforum when irs leaked.  but actually, it has already leaked nearly a year before on the trunk show

and no, no one knows who wes is.  he still comes around occasionally though.  wes is also here on htgth (he started a thread this morning in reference to better, with a link to the first released clip, which some nazi promptly deleted)

amen!!

Every single word of your theory makes sense.

How long have you been playing the guitar?? :-*

Kidding...

Not exactly.  Someone was outside the building where they were recording/playing back some working demos and recorded it.  Along with the sound of the wind and waves crashing.  Not exactly a leak.  More of an "audience recording."

Yes but a different recorded version. It isn't like the second IRS is the same recorded as the first, just cleaned up. It's clearly a different recording, right? Plus he said he has Better and TWAT also, also since November 2004.

No, the IRS played on trunk is the same recording we have now.

I think its strange that some people think "How could you NOT think they leaked it?"

Because im on the WAY other side. I keep thinking "How could people actually believe they leaked it?"

So.. I guess we all have our opinions.

Im gonna go with pilferk on this one...

I'll be off topic for just a second here. Physical Graffiti remixed by Beck and Reznor!  :drool: I know this is really old and has been discussed a billion times, but does this not sound like the greatest rock album of all time?! The writer of the interview must have absolutely loved this album. I can think of no greater compliment than being compared to Zeppelin's masterpiece touched up by Beck and Trent Reznor.

Back on topic, pilferk's theory sounds about right. I never really thought about it being a prospective guitar player before but it makes sense to me. Catcher in the Rye is still a bit of a mystery as it sounds like it was taken from a cassette. Anyway, the leaks are great, however we got them and the mystery of it all sure is fun.

Exactly right. they've been dubbed "the Beach Clips" They're full songs though and you can easily hear bono's lyrics and melody. They're oddly lacking in drums though.  They're there but not very much.

Anyways I'm a beliver that the leaks were done on purpose. It just seems way too convenient that Axl said we'd hear music this year and then surprise, surprise 4 new songs emerged right as a tour is being announced. Perfect timeing if there ever was one. We already knew the Blues, Madagascar and CD so? no point in leaking those. Most of us agree that this tour seems to be alot more organized and properly done as compared to 2002 so having? 4 more songs out there that we could get familiar with was by no means a bad thing for the band. Plus with those rare Hammerstien shows it makes sense to play songs the crowd is familiar with rather than introduce a bunch of new material. Anyways just my take on it. But for those who say Axl simply keeps the songs in a? safe place to me that's a bit nieve. If Axl has a safe place don't ya think all artists would have a safe place?? I personally think this album is further away from being done than we think and in my opinion it's gonna be a real push to get it out before the end of the year. Say we have no single before the tour starts up again than what?? no leaks, no single.... can't be a good thing.

As for CITR being leaked, well that was really weird.? ? ?

No, that's why I called it a theory.

I should have been a bit clearer in my response.

I know Wes and Saint Saiya were, pretty much, the "sources" for the original material, in that they were the ones who initially brought it to the net.? What I meant when I said "I don't know who the original source of the materisl is" is that I don't think Wes and the Saint were the ORIGINAL source.? Someone(s) got the tracks and eventually they got to those 2 people.? Add to that fact I don't know Wes or the Saint, personally.? But I do find the "original strip club" story that Wes has told a bit....well....lets just say I don't believe it and think Wes is covering for someone.

Catcher is an animal of a different color.? It did NOT come from the same source at IRS, Better, and TWAT.? It's the enigma, of all the leaks, for me.

It's been confirmed that the IRS version we have is the same as the one Trunk played.? If you listen the the "crappy" version of IRS (with radio static, etc) that leaked about 6 months (maybe a year) prior to the "clean" version leaking, you can tell they're the same version, too.

LOL.

Incidentally, I've been playing for roughly 20 years now.  :)

But I'm nowhere NEAR good enough (anymore, especially) to audition for the local garage band, never mind GnR.  I used to play regularly, but now, with the 2 kids (with a third on the way), well...now I fiddle.

That has been my guess on the sourcing. You can tell by one listen to all of the tracks that at least CITR is from a completely different source.

The idea that the album has been recorded in the past two years is obviously wrong.  Was IRS not recorded as far back as 1999?

Even if it is the same recording of IRS it came from a different source. The original leak was recorded of the radio. The leak in February clearly wasn't the same version just cleared it up, it must have came direct from the original CD or a different CD with the same version of IRS.

The only thing that adds weight to the theory that management leaked the songs is the fact that the three songs leaked that were played live came from the same source, like it was planned. Whereas Catcher In The Rye came from a different source and coincidentally wasn't played live. It's like management may have leaked the three songs and someone else, thinking that everything was gonna leak decided to leak Catcher seperately. When management tried to track down the leaker, they were really trying to get the CITR leaker, fearful he would leak more songs.

However, if the first three were leaked by management, why would Wes have the songs from Nov 2004. Plus leaking songs in that fashion just doesn't seem Axl's style.

The idea that an auditioning guitarist had the demos is a good one and would explain why the three songs that leaked were the same three songs which were played live, which were the ones the guitarist would have to learn. But I doubt Axl had decided on which songs to play live as far back as Nov 2004, when Wes first got the songs. But who knows?

Maybe he lied about having the songs since 2004. :P

Note that I said, in my post, same version, not same source.? I don't think it was the same source.? But the "version" (ie: it is the same recording, the same track, from the same "studio session", if you want to call it that) is the same as the one Trunk played.

I'm not going to open up the huge can of worms that was this discussion, before, but I will say this:

Eddie Trunk said Better was not on the CD that he had that contained IRS.

People have argued with me over his credibility as a source on the matter but...well, I believe him.? Take that for what you will.

Not to throw them under the bus, but I suspect that's the case.  But I think the reason for the fabricated story, using bits of widely available information, was to protect whoever the original source of the tracks is.  But that's just my speculation....

I don't think that it proves anything one way or another.  A very possible scenario is that the band wanted to play some new songs that havn't been heard before.  Let's assume CD will have 15 tracks.  3 leaks plus 3 new songs would mean that there'd be 6 that've already been heard.  Include the "old" new songs we've heard and the whole album may not have many new songs left to reveal. 

It makes a lot more sense to just play the songs that have been leaked.

I know I didn't want to argue over the different recordings of IRS,  just wanted to clarify myself coz I was a little unsure. I know about Trunk's claims and I don't believe the songs came from him. I think the theory that it came from another guitar player makes sense and it explains why the three songs that leaked were the three songs played live. Because they were the songs Axl told that guitar player to learn and so he gave him them three songs. If they came from somewhere else, I doubt Axl would have allowed the leaks to influence his song selection. Just my opinion. So the guitarist thing makes sense. Also, October 2004 is around the time Bumblefoot first auditioned with Guns. If you look at the news archive, GnR management denied they had taken on another guitarist yet, but its clear they were audtioning people around that time. Wes claims he has them since one month after that so it adds up. I doubt Wes lied about when he got the songs, it was just a casual comment made when he first announced he had the songs.

Management would never leak songs that sound, from a production standpoint, that BAD. If that is the production and final version of IRS, TWAT.....this album will be a terrible disappointment. Who cares where the leaks came from...just as long as they did not come from management. I don't think there is any way in hell that management leaked this stuff. :-\

If BBF had to go to Sanctuary's office to listen to the new songs to learn how to play it, why would the band give 3 unheard new songs back in 2004 for unreliable people? Also, they could give any of the new songs already played live back then, there was no need to show new stuff - remember we're talkin' about GN'R, it's not like any other band who doesn't care much about leaks...

Of course it's not the case. I can tell just by hearing the mixing on those demos, but if you don't believe me, just listen to IRS live and compare with the demos we have.

did anyone ever check wes's ip addy to see where he's from? not that it really matters, but i was kinda curious.

i think it's something that was orchestrated. by whom, i don't know, but i just think it's too weird that a dude pops into a GnR forum one day, says he has new songs, and then turns around and proves it! Then we start getting show announcements within weeks of the leaks. i find it really hard to swallow that it's all some big coincidence.

Maybe this wes dude is someone that Axl knows and trusts, and he has had the songs since 04, and was given the nod on when to do it, and how to go about gettin it done.

I was thinking it was a big coincidence that straight after the songs were leaked they anounced the European shows, as if maybe Axl had leaked them intentionaly but then I thought what if the promoter or someone else connected with running the tour had asked for some proof Axl had some new stuff to do and it wasn't just going to be another "lets play some appetite, make some money then lay low for another 4 years" kind of gig. If this is the case then lots of new people may have had access to the tracks.

They obviously changed policy after the leaks. Back in 2004 they may have trusted the auditioning guitarists. Now, after the leaks, they don't, hence BBF having to go to Sanctuary's office to listen to the new songs to learn how to play them.