Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Can we talk about it in a calm way ?
sorry i snapped in the other thread, but some people were a bit too extreme.

So can we talk about what's happening. cause if a 3rd world war starts in a year, we'll look at this israeli soldier kidnapped as the little thing that started it all, just like for world war 1.

I can understand how Tsahal is trying to put the hezbolah down, but you just dont behave like that when their are civilians around.
same thing with a hostages situations, you just dont blow up everybody.

 ???

I've asked Jarmo whether this thread can live so we'll have to wait for his verdict.? There's no way you can promise no politics - it is a political thread - but I personally think this is interesting and important enough for an exception to be made.? We'll see.. :peace:

no WWIII yet.
maybe in 20 years, but not now.

Jarmo gave the all clear, so the thread lives!

You're only getting one chance with this so don't screw it up.  If the thread gets locked it stays locked, and anyone who tries to start trouble will be smited on sight.  No complaining - no whining - no insulting - no "just let the bastards kill each other" - no racism - etc...

Be very careful.

I sympathise with both sides of the arguement here.  Both Isreal and Lebannon have good arguements for their sides of things. I cant agree with the escalation of violence though.  Its the innocent who will suffer, its the same in every war.  I just hope someone can bring both sides to the table so they can talk instead of shoot to eachother.

Yeah I like everybody ......  :nervous: :confused:

Hezbollah (Party of God) is very dangerous. They are run by Iran.

yeah we know. what's your point ?

i got one too
Putting your hand (the extremity of your arm) in fire is dangerous, it burns.

My point is that the end justifies the means.

You think they haven't tried? It's a very delicate issue, they don't want peace accords, whatsoever. Remember when Sadat was assassinated by his allies because he tried to make peace with Israel? If someone tries the same, history will keep repeating itself.

there wont be a resolution in the near future.
someone needs to make some drastic action to change the situation there.
this way the agony goes on and on...

Best case scenario, the Jews learn how to become the victim again.
Worst case scenario is the Muslims gain power by playing the role of the victim.

If they don't learn soon, there won't be anything left to fight over..........

Unlikely to say the least. ;D

Let's hope this thing ends quickly... I knew, nothing good would come out of Hamas forming the government. I'm not against them or anything, but don't the Palestinians have an iota of sense? What's the use of voting a terrorist group into power? One thing that they ensured is that they won't have any peace...  :no:

You didn't happen to hear anything whiz over your head did you?

it's more complicated than man. rational reasoning don't work when you are:

poor
hungry
in prison
people build a wall in the desert around you
fighting over land
fighting over religious and racial issues

oh wait ! all the conditions are met !

hamas, hezbolah, they're just little parameters in a global issue.
it could have been settled down in 67 if, like kids, israeli and palestinian agreed to do 50/50. but no.
some people refused.

edit: 50 people today killed.
the port of beyrouth was bombed.

Jacques Chirac stated that there are nations behind Hamas and Hezbollah's provocations...

but attacking the airport and all the civil infra-structures ?
why ?
they have nothing to do with the hezbollah, the airport was 100% civil.

israeli top ministers say that it's a mean of pressure on the libanese governement to deal with the hezbollah. The government had to deal with terrorist attacks and assissanation for 20 years, they have no hands on the hezbollah. Pressuring the governement by washing away all the economical hopes (this summer was about to be the 1st big touristic summer for Lebanon) is conuter-productive.
It will make the hate bigger
It will give even more reason to support the hezbollah. Because, as terroris this organization is, they are responsible of kicking Israel out of lebanon in 82, and the lebanese know that.

So is Israel trying to punish Iran and Syria through lebanon ? Are the USA behind that again ?
There are limits.

19 ?people died, 9 kids (!!) in a bus. burned alive. while fleeing . israel just dropped a bomb on the bus. come on.


edit : 50 dead just for today. 40 civilians. good job.

For someone who wants to talk about this so bad you are walking a fine line between discussing it and trying to stir things up....why even mention the USA, we are staying pretty far away from this in case you haven't noticed. 

For all of your statistics about innocent people dying (just on the Arab side I notice too, hmm, biased much? - as if innocent israelis aren't/haven't been targets as well?) you haven't suggested what you think Israel SHOULD do in this situation.  Best of all, you act like the kidnapping of "a few soldiers" is no big deal.  !?!?HUH!?!?   Quite frankly, if the government can't control Hezbollah then they ARE to blame for some of this.  Hezbollah is most to blame - they crossed a border, attacked/killed soldiers and they took some prisoner.  You honestly mean to tell me if that happened to people in your country you would just say "c'est la vie" and go on with your day? You wouldn't want a response?  You wouldn't want your government to send a message to your enemies and say "enough is enough"? 

To say the gov't has "no hands" on Hezbollah is naive.  They know Hezbollah operates in the southern part of Lebanon, they know they are recognized by the WORLD as a terrorist group, they know that they conduct terrorist activity and yet what have they done to get rid of them? 

To say that is the equivalent of the Taliban saying they had no control over Al Queda in Afghanistan - and we all know that wasn't the case.  Its the governments job to ensure that activity inside its own borders isn't going to bring negative outside attention.

I do think Israel's response is very excessive, but I honestly don't know what else they should do.  I will agree with you that the people I feel the most for are the innocents, but on BOTH sides of this conflict.  Don't mention one side suffering innocent casulties and not the other......that just shows a lot of bias.

fair enough.
is it happening to your country ?

The israeli death are sad in the same ways. i mentionned the libanese ones, cause they were today, and 9 kids. that's all.
No bias here.
i'm sorry if i am naive enough to get on the lebanese side, i guess that's human nature to get on the weaks side.

Gov't problem ? Well yeah. Bombing the airport won't help. That's all.

And i dont think i'm being naive in getting the USA in the issue. Europe and Russia are in it in a way too.


Maybe it's a matter of morals and education, but i don't believe in punishing X when you can't reach Y. In a hostage situation the SWAT team do NOT blow the school with kids in it. They don't go " well, you let the criminals in, you're to blame !"
see. same thing.
There is a violence problem here. There are countries in the world that feel obligated to use violence to answer violence. And i'm sure you, or some others, will tell me that it's normal. You're feeding on violence i guess.

I'm just here, watching the news, readin the paper. For 5 years. And violence haven't solved a thing.
Now some will come back with the infamous theory " so what should we do ? let terror happen ? "
This is how stuck we are.
Israel won't stop violence until things go their way. unfortunatly things won't change until violence stops. Vicious circle ?

about the one side suffering thing.
they are two different matters.
israeli suffers from evil terrorist. of course people blame that. but it's not a surprise to see a terrorist killing civilians, that's their job.

those lebanese kids got nuked by a F-16 jet fighter. direct hit. that's something else. who's terrorist?

When will this world move towards resolutions decided through discussions??

Discussions, discussions and more fucking discussions.  As many discussions as it takes......

Dis-FUCKING-cuss!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it takes 20 to 50 years of talking to come to resolutions then so be it.

Killing, maming, terrorizing solves absolutely nothing.

I have faith and will keep hoping that we can all learn to respect the beliefs and positions of others.

This war is sickening. I understand Israel heat if they got soldiers kidnapped. But they are over reacting far too much. To be honest i dont think they've been captured at all its just to blame Palestine to drive em out. If its true, they still over react. They should only attack those who are actually causing the harm such as military.

I'm also angry at Lebanon killing the innocents even tho far less than israel. They should pay blood money for innocents killed.

I think journalism affects the way people feel about the war. Example. on Al-Jazeera, a journalist would show a body of a four year old child that was burned in a blast to the camera to make people realise the ugliness of war. On CNN and BBC News 24 ypou aint get that and im upset that people are taking this war to lightly in Britian (not including rest of world dunno bout em)

Of course Israel are right to want to take action against Hezbollah, but it;s completely disproportionate and belies an ignorance of the political fragility of the region.

At a crude level, its as if the IRA bombed Britain in the 80s, and then Britain bombs Boston for allowing IRA fundraising there. The argument could be the same- you're doing nothing to stop this terrorism, so you're complicit. It's the classic right-wing fallacy, ironically- blaming government for the action of individuals or small groups. As a parallel, America isn't sending Pakistan back to the stone age, although there certainly are militias in its border areas, similar to Lebanon. You can't use the same paradigm of statehood for these countries as in the civilized world.

So why don't Israel offer to help the Lebanese? Why not say, OK we recognise your problems, and we'll help you root out extremism?

Or if that's idealistic, there are lots of stages of diplomatic pressure to go through.

The heart of the problem is that neither side really value the lives of ordinary citizens enough. Essentially what has caused this latest incident is the exiled Hamas leadership- scared of losing power as the new Hamas leaders in Palestine move towards peace as they were, the exiles use their influence to start a new phase of conflict to rejuvenate the radicalisation. It's a power struggle, and many people will die, and countries set back decades as a result of the short sightedness of so many leaders.

You don't see that on the BBC not due to any bias, but due to feelings in western civilization over what is decent to display. In Britain, and related cultures, it's considered obscence and incredibly repugnant to display dead bodies. The BBC is the most impartial reporting you're going to get.

I can understand both sides here...there is no easy answer.  Are the following facts true?

From what I understand we've got a situation where a very strong terrorist organization is operating within southern Lebanon that the Lebanese military/police can't or won't control.

This organization, Hezbollah, wants to eradicate Israel.  It is funded by Syria and Iran.  "Iran's leader incorrectly believes the holocaust never happened btw."  Hezbollah has taken credit for murdering innocent civilians via suicide bombings within Israel even before this latest kidnapping of Israeli soldeiers.

The entire conflict centers around what is perceived as the unjust granting of the Palestians homeland to the Israelis in the late 1940's.  The Arab world tends to believe the land belongs to the Palestinians and wants the Israelis gone. 

Everyone knows, even after Arab attack after Arab attack in the last 60 years, Israel's not going anywhere.  From what I understand, they've even given some of the land they took after past wars back to Arab nations...who started the violence in the 1st place.

I understand the Hezbollah organization is smaller and weaker than the Israeli army, thus requiring them to hide amongst civilians for protection and survival.

It seems the Israeli army has finally decided no more games.  So sometimes when you see that burned 4 year-old, he was sitting next to a killer ready to kill Israeli 4 year-olds the next day. 

I feel for the Palestinians as much as I feel for the Native American who lost his land in the past century here in the United States.  However, what we have here is an established state...and alot of neighbors who'd like nothing better than to wipe them off the map. 

Is it too much to ask for the surrounding Arab nations to put down there arms and begin peaceful co-habitation? 

My belief is that Israel will strike at Iran's burgeoning nuclear program with decisive air-strikes within the next decade.  I don't think it will happen too soon since Iran's weapons program isn't close to production in the next 2 to 5 years.

To de-fuse this thing fast, what must happen is the Lebanese military must arrest all major Hezbollah figures and turn them over to the Israelis, or better yet, try them under Lebanese law and punish them to the extent of the law.

How does that sound?   ???



 

Sounds good to me.  Personally I think saying the Israeli army is stronger and better and thus shouldn't strike back as much as they are is ridiculous....if the terror groups had fighter jets and tanks they would be using them, we all know this.  Violence brings more violence, and in the case of this situation I do think its fair to ask yourself, well, who fired the first show.  Every established state has the job, infact it is their DUTY to protect their citizens. 

This situation to me is like the little scrawny kid flinging insults at the bigger stronger kid....finally the little guy gets the balls to punch the big kid - it stings, but once he recovers he starts to beat the shit out of the little guy.  To me there is no sympathy needed, if you want to pick a fight you should be prepared for the other side to fight back as much as they can.

I agree about the Lebanese gov't, they need to be accountable for the groups within their own borders.  As for the palestine/israel conflict, you are also correct, like it or not, israel is an established state and just b/c some countries may not like that, they have to respect it. 

For ONCE, and I can NOT believe I am about to type this, Bush is right - Hezbollah needs to lay down their arms and return the soldiers for the violence to stop.  Israel doesn't need to negotiate, they are in control right now - if Hezbollah didn't want innocent people to die, they would offer to talk about things instead of saying the equivalent of "bring it on!" to the Israeli gov't.

giving some US perspective everything here on the new is the evil arabs funded by terrorists are attacking the jews...

both sides are playing the victim...

essential listening....megadeth...holy wars  :nervous:

Unfortunatly Israel (and the USA) got it all wrong, again.
Why ?

You do not get rid of a terrorist organization (fueled by the hate of Israel) by bombing the country. Simple.
The lebanese people will hate Israel just more. What are Israel thinking ? in 5 weeks, that everything will be forgoten and lebanese will sing and dance while walking among corpses? uh.*

I understand that israeli are there and you can't just make 'em go away. But the sharing of the land is far from being fair. Un 1967 resolution was offering a fair 50/50 solution. refused by the usa, i mean, Israel ... sorry :)

So saying the arab started the violence is a little bit easy.

And feeling bad for the palestinian as you feel for the native american, is a nice thing, but that " well too bad, we're here now ..." thing is bit hard to understand for the ones who got their land taken.

Israel has come to limits now. You can feel how the international comitee are just puzzled and silent. Something's wrong. And i would be so please if Europe woke up and just protect Libanon. simply.

What pisses me off, is that the real objectives are Syria and Iran, we all know that. Israel know that. But they're too scared to attack them. So they punish Lebanon. that's fucked.


What would de-fuse things ? > Israel stopping the strikes right now. that' it.
how can people, in 2006, not understand that.
You stop fighting, then you talk.

It's like, you got candies i want, and i'm beating you up, and i'm telling you to find them in your bag while i'm punching you?
How does that sound?

Israel is doing the right thing.

Tsahal is restoring Israel's deterrence capacity which is essential. Without deterrence those terrorists would be even more aggressive.

depends on what right is ?
and what side you are. and how moral you are. Israel is just playing the hate game.

This is not about being 'moral', this is about strategy. Without deterrence, Arab countries would attack Israel. A lot of those countries don't even recognize the 1967 borders, they don't recognize Israel at all...
Hezbollah and Hamas' goal is to wipe Israel off the map, not to reach a peace agreement.

1967 ? did u see the size of gaza ? i put you there for 2 weeks and you'll want to wipe out israel too. see it's all about point of view.

oh and, yeah, it should be about moral. it's so easy to talk about strategy when they're kids dying.

Hezbollah has nothing to do with Gaza, it has to do with religious fanaticism.
And Israel is protecting their own kids. If Tsahal wasn't strong, I think the kids from Israel would suffer a lot...

what ? hamas? hezbolah ? get your points straight ....


uh ... yeah ... ok. ?_?


israel is as evil as the hezbolah could be. that's all. you don't wanna face it too bad. things aren't black and white.
we're not in 1939 anymore.

Actually, Israel has given the Lebanese government plenty of time to find the "candies" you are referring to.  These "candies" happen to be terrorists armed with rockets, explosives, and weapons all bought and paid for by Syria and Iran.  These "candies" are hiding amongst the women and children in southern Lebanon when they aren't killing Israeli civilians.  Israel is trying to avoid civilian death as much as possible...but Hezbollah must be crushed. 

Understanding this situation requires you see things from the perspective of all parties involved.  As a Lebanese civilian I'd want to know my neighbors and turn any member of Hezbollah into the authorities.  Get out!  If a Hezbollah militia group was living in my apartment building, guess what?  Time to leave with everything but the kitchen sink, and call in the air-strike. 

Regime change is needed in Syria and Iran.  Arab nations need to raise their standards of living for their general populations or the fanaticism and lack of value for human life will continue.  That goes for the Saudis as well.  If I had no hope of a good life, I might strap a bomb to my belly and want to go see Allah and the 72 strippers in heaven.  It's sad.

Israel is a democracy, why compare it with a terrorist movement as Hezbollah ? :confused:

Axl4Prez2004, good points ! But don't forget that September 11th terrorists were middle-class, not poor at all. There's a problem with islam that goes beyond poverty...

yeah it's an evil religion and they should be killed ....  :confused:

Again, you guys are *reasoning* in a rational way.
There are too many paramters in the game for Israel to take it step by step, in an incremental way.
1 - I tell you to get rid of hezbola
2 - You dont it
3 - i bomb your civil airport

It would work in a game, in a computer program.
Not in real life.
Any action will have multitude of consequences. starting with fueling the hate.

And it doesnt take a smart ass to understand that you don't fight terrorism by bombing cities and starting a war.
Iraq anyone ?

As much as you can love Israel, this is not the way to go. It won't solve anything.
I can't wait for the UN to wake up and finally have some balls.

Slashhead ... democracy .... mate you're way out. we're not talking about that.

Alright, the lebanese want the hezbolah out.
Now they want Israel dead. and they don't care for the hezbolah. cause this terrorist organization will be the only thing between the people and israel bombs. Until the UN take some action.

A wall in the desert .... what a joke.

A interesting article

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views06/0715-26.htm


All night I heard the jets, whispering high above the Mediterranean. It lasted for hours, little fireflies that were watching Beirut, waiting for dawn perhaps, because it was then that they descended.

They came first to the little village of Dweir near Nabatiya in southern Lebanon where an Israeli plane dropped a bomb onto the home of a Shia Muslim cleric. He was killed. So was his wife. So were eight of his children. One was decapitated. All they could find of a baby was its head and torso which a young villager brandished in fury in front of the cameras. Then the planes visited another home in Dweir and disposed of a family of seven.

It was a brisk start to Day Two of Israel's latest "war on terror," a conflict that uses some of the same language - and a few of the same lies - as George Bush's larger "war on terror." For just as we "degraded" Iraq - in 1991 as well as 2003 - so yesterday it was Lebanon's turn to be "degraded."

That means not only physical death but economic death and it arrived at Beirut's gleaming new ?300m international airport just before 6am as passengers prepared to board flights to London and Paris.

From my home, I heard the F-16 which suddenly appeared over the newest runway and fired a spread of rockets into it, ripping up 20 metres of tarmac and blasting tons of concrete into the air in a massive explosion before a Hetz-class Israeli gunboat fired on to the other runways.

Two of Middle East Airlines' new Airbuses were left untouched but, within minutes, the airport was deserted as passengers fled back to their homes and hotels.

The flight indicators told the whole story: Paris, no flight, London, no flight, Cairo, no flight, Dubai, no flight, Baghdad - from the cauldron into the fire if anyone had chosen to take it - no flight. Someone was playing "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina" over the public address system.

Then the Israelis went for the hezbollah television station, Al-Manar, clipping off its antenna with a missile but failing to put the station off air. That might be a more understandable target - "Manar," after all, broadcasts hezbollah propaganda. But was it really designed to find or recover the two Israeli soldiers captured on Wednesday? Or to take revenge for the nine Israelis killed in the same incident, one of the blackest days in recent Israeli Army history although not as black as it was for the 36 Lebanese civilians killed in the previous 24 hours.

An Israeli woman was also killed by a hezbollah rocket fired into Israel. So, in the grim exchange rate of these wretched conflicts, one Israeli death equals just over three Lebanese; it's a fair bet the exchange rate will grow more murderous.

And by afternoon, the threats had grown worse. Israel would not "sit idly by." It ordered the entire population of the southern suburbs - home to hezbollah's headquarters - to flee their homes by 3pm.

Save for a few hundred families, they stubbornly refused to leave. Everywhere in Lebanon could now be a target, the Israelis announced. If Israel bombed the suburbs, the hezbollah roared, it would fire its long-range Katyushas at the Israeli city of Haifa. One of them had apparently already damaged an Israeli air base at Miron, a fact concealed at the time by Israeli censors.

It certainly frightened Lebanon's Gulf tourists who packed the roads from Bhamdoun in their 4x4s, fleeing for the safety of Syria and flights home from Damascus. Another little economic death for Lebanon.

But what did all this mean, this ranting and threatening? I sat at home in the early afternoon, going through my files of Israeli statements. It turned out that Israel had threatened not to "sit idly by" (or occasionally "stand idly by") in Lebanon on at least six occasions in the past 26 years, most famously when the late Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin promised that he would not "stand idly by" while Christians were threatened here in 1980 - only to withdraw his soldiers and leave the Christians to their bloody fate three years later.

The Lebanese are always left to their fate. Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, says he holds the Lebanese government responsible for the attacks on the border that breached the international frontier on Wednesday.

But Mr. Olmert and everyone knows that the weak and fractious government of the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora isn't capable of controlling a single militiaman, let alone the hezbollah.

Yet wasn't this the same set of Lebanese political leaders congratulated by the United States last year for its democratic elections and its freedom from Syria? Indeed, a man who sees Bush as a friend - perhaps "saw" is a better word - is Saad Hariri, son of the ex-Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri who built much of the infrastructure that Israel is now destroying and whose murder last year - by Syrian agents? - supposedly outraged Mr Bush.

Yesterday morning, Saad Hariri, the son, was flying into Beirut when America's Israeli allies arrived to bomb the airport. He had to turn round as his aircraft skulked off to Cyprus for refuge.

But it was the undercurrent of terror-speak that was particularly frightening yesterday.

Lebanon was an "axis of terror," Israel was "fighting terror on all fronts." During the morning, I had to cut across an interview with an Australian radio station when an Israeli reporter stated - totally untruthfully - that there were Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Lebanon and that not all Syria's troops had left.

And the reason why the Israelis had attacked Beirut's infinitely secure and carefully monitored airport, used by diplomats and European leaders, a facility as safe as any in Europe? Because, so said the Israelis, it was "a central hub for the transfer of weapons and supplies to the hezbollah terrorist organisation." If the Israelis really want to know where that hub is, they should be looking at Damascus airport. But they do know that, don't they?

And so it is terror, terror, terror again and Lebanon is once more to be depicted as the mythic terror center of the Middle East along, I suppose, with Gaza. And the West Bank. And Syria. And, of course, Iraq. And Iran. And Afghanistan. And who knows where next?

the reasons invoked by the israeli are outrageous.

WAT-EVER, I'm happy you're not Israel's Prime minister... :hihi:

i would do it.
i would do 50/50 and share the land, we'll all listen to a big GNR concert in jerusalem or somewhere. :)

but you know, i think it's lost. our generation. things are dead now. all fucked up. israel. iran. all fucked up.

Iran, Israel and islamic terroris, are the root of all evil in this world. they're all full of hate.

You're right. the world is so messed up people actually think there's such thing as "Islamic Terrorism." It saddens as a muslim that the islamic terror isnt referred to as a thing of goodness i.e. a thief or a rapist feeling terror at the sight of a muslim person the way police are but used to describe people who0 spread a point of view by killing civilians and and themselves, something which is totally wrong to be a muslim. 

Israel need to give some land to the muslims of palestine. We have a long history in israel and its awful its been taken away from us. Also these so called "Muslim rule" countries such as syria are misusing islam for their own desires and all thats been achieved is corruption.

Sorry if i went off topic there, I'm angry at this war because there's no unity among anybody to stop harm to civilians. Why arent israel freeing the 1000 or so requested prisoners under the age 18? I dont get it

The hell they are.

Israel is the better armed, more powerful entity. It is their duty to act responsibly. By escalating tit-for-tat they are proving to be just as insane as who they are fighting. Setting an entire country in flames is not justified. Both sides are guilty of terrorism, since both sides are killing civilians.

Islamic extremism is not isolated to a small group of muslims.  Muslims don't do themselves any favors either.  If these Muslim nations were against islamic extremism they would condemn the actions of terrorists when they occur, and they would at least make a little effort to try and catch and stop islamic extremists within their borders.  This does not happen.  Israel just sits around next to these hostile countries as they promise to crack down on extremism but in reality do nothing.

Countries like Syria seem to be the rule rather than the exception of Muslim countries.  How anyone can make the argument that Israel needs to give up more land is beyond me.  They sent in their own police to drag Israelis out of Gaza.  However, instead of taking that land and making it productive, the Palenstineans moved rockets and missiles into Gaza.

Why should Israel give any piece of land back to the Palestineans admist the pressure from terrorists and islamic extremism?  Israel has been stating for years that a peace agreement would occur once Hama is disbanded and terrorism stops.  This has not happened.  Nevertheless, Israel took the bold, but wrong move in my opinion, to move out of Gaza to appease all of those that believed that terrorism would stop once Israel began to draw back.  However, the terrorism increased.  How anyone could rip on Israel for this is beyond me.

This is absurd and the criticisms are outrageous. 


Hezbollah, which is represented in the Lebanese legislature and cabinet, attacked Israel without provocation.  That violates international law.

Hezbollah has used human shields, placing its rockets in the homes of civilians.  That too violates international law.

Hezbollah aims its rockets at cities indiscriminately, another violation of international law. 

I know no one expects better from Hezbollah, but it is important to point this out.  Moreover, Lebanon has not an effort to disarm Hezbollah and therefore some of the responsibility is borne by it.  Certainly, it cannot complain when Israel attempts to defend itself against Hezbollah.

Israel's actions are excessive?  Now, it is true that Israel occasionally harms civilians, but its actions are designed to attack military targets and it is careful not to harm citizens any more than necessary.  Of course, when Hezbollah uses human shields, the responsibility lies with Hezbollah, not Israel.

The main idea of the critics of Israel seems to be that Israel is fighting too hard, going after too many targets.  After all, Hezbollah only kidnapped a couple of its soldiers.  While this might seem to be a plausible argument at first, in a perverse sort of  way, upon examination it just seems absurd.  Hezbollah attacked Israel.   It has not disavowed its attack nor returned the soldiers.  Israel should be allowed to respond as necessary to get its soldiers returned.  Moreover, Hezbollah has now shot rockets throughout Israel and there is no reason to think it will not do so in the future.  It is perfectly legitimate for Israel to fight a war with Hezbollah now, defeat it, and disarm it.

If any other country had to deal with the BS that Israel has to deal with, we would not be condemning such military action.? Israel has acted with more restraint than probably any country in this world could tolerate.? There is a point where discussion and talks go nowhere.? These islamic radicals don't want a peace agreement with Israel; they want Israel destroyed.? Hamas has always stated this, Hezbollah has stated this, and the Iranian president has stated this multiple times.? Is Israel really supposed to sit and withdraw from areas in their country, while Iran is developing nuclear capabilities, hoping that these people will change their minds.

EXCELLENT points.  It blows my mind that people seem to forget that these aren't countries we are talking about, they are TERROR groups that their host countries do very very little, if nothing at all, to stop. 

As for Israel giving more land - you really think that would stop the violence? Then you don't understand the situation - the terrorist groups and radical islamic countries don't want Israel to exist at all, they want it wiped off the face of the earth.  They dont' want part of the land back, they want it ALL.

Like someone else said before, if you pick a fight with someone who has more weapons, more bombs don't start crying when they decide to use them all and don't complain that its "too much".  The SIMPLE FACT is they wouldn't have dropped any bombs or blown up any airports/bridges/road ways if their country wasn't attacked and its troops weren't taken prisoner.  Thats not hard to understand.  If you leave a hornets nest alone, you won't get stung....throw a rock at it and be prepared for some pain.

Why do these countries want israel destroyed ? where does that come from ?


The hezbolah started in 1982, a joint-venture between Iran and Syria to deal with the Israeli attacks in Lebanon. so here you go, provocation started 24 years ago.
It's not like everything was going fine until today, it's not like Palestinian were chillin' out in Gaza (1.4 million for 360 km? !). I dont know if you're aware, but there are issues over there.

Hezbollah is indeed a terrorist organisation. Israel has the right to seek them and kill 'em (that's what god-lovers do, they kill).

So tell me, why bombing : the airport, the port, lighthouse, food silo, roads in Beyrouth ?
When everybody knows that the HZB is funded by Syria and Iran. Damascus is the objective here.

Arab countries don't want peace ? why ?
i guess 30 years of suffering and humuliation is the answer.
Israel has clearly stated that this land belongs to them (it's written in some book they say, god gave it to them ...).
At some point in history, we thought about a 50 / 50 solution. nah, not good enough i guess.


BerkeleyRiot, one question, why are you so enthusiastic about Israel ?
Why shift this way? i don't get it. there is a clear violation of human right, a country attacking civilians because they can't hold on the people they want.
it's outrageous.

as i said earlier, if you're in the swat team, dop you blow up the school *with* the kids because you can't get a clear shot of the criminals ?

i was posting on some other big french message board, and it's amazing how Pro-Israel people talk the SAME you do.
They have a lust for violence and power.
They are all exited about the war.
They keep posting about bombs, and " don't fuck with us " and things like that.
It's very troubling.
There is, in some ways, a similarity with american people ( and i was talking about french pro-israeli). You guys JUST LOVE VIOLENCE.
there is this tone in your writing, where it sounds like all this mess just turns you on.
very very mischievous and immoral.
i don't know.
wierd.

Guys and gals, these are all very good points.  I enjoy civil discussions, I think we're doing well!  Someone mentioned "the problem with Islam," and I'd like to correct that to fundamentalist Islam.  Fun"dumb"entalist anything is a danger to civilization.  That goes for Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever. 

Also, someone mentioned, "what about the 1,000 prisoners Israel is holding?"  "Why aren't they released?"  Hmmm, my guess?  Because a week from the release they'll be targeting cafes, hotels, bah mitzvahs, etc.  That's why. 

Someone also mentioned a 50-50 land split.  This is preposterous.  It will happen as soon as the western U.S. is given back to Mexico, as soon as the American Indian is given the rest of the U.S., and Scandinavia returns its land to the Vikings.  :hihi:

Oh, and btw, please don't say all Americans love violence and war.  Personally, I agreed with the Afghanistan war and the hunt for Osama Bin Laden...I disagreed with the Iraq War after I learned the entire justification was built upon non-existent weapons of mass destruction, bad intell.  A majority of Americans disagree with pres bush's policies as well.

 :peace:

Seriously, the Lebanese, private citizen and police and military alike have to come together to realize the biggest threat to their society is not Israel, it is the terrorist scum that is ignored that lives next door or down the street from them.  I believe the sub-title to GNR's Locomotive is the word I'm getting at here.   ;)  ;)  ;)  ...complicity.   ;)

My guess is that they are destroying Hezbollah's capability to move the soldiers out of Lebanon and into Iran or Syria.

They are not doing what is necessary to get peace. ?Israel made the biggest move towards peace than any of the involved entities. ?They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza even though the Palenstinian government did not do anything to stop terrorism. ?What happened? ?More terrorism.

Sure both countries are partly responsible for the animosity. ?However, I have seen Israel take meaningful steps towards peace. ?Not one of these arab countries nor the Palestinian government can say the same. ?All they have to do is stop the terrorism and disband the terrorist groups. ?They refuse to do so. ?If you were Israel, would you give up any land admist this terrorism and these countries' refusal to stop - let alone their refusal to stop supporting - terrorism? ?Of course not. ?Especially since they did begn to withdraw from land and things got worst.

This islamic extremism goes far beyond the conflict in Israel and the middle east. ?Although it didn't get too much attention, radical extremists bombed Kashmir. ?Radical muslims have been committing the same acts in the Phillipines for years. ?Radical muslims are slaughtering Christians in Sudan. ?There is an element of the Islamic religion, that certainly doesn't cover all muslims, that is creating havoc far beyond the Gaza strip. ?Muslims that don't have such extreme views are in the best position to condemn it and stop it. ?Yet they conveniently fail to do so. ?These countries that apparently want peace and disagree with these fanactics do nothing to stop them.


I don't think enthusiastic is the word. ?More like sympathetic. ?They put up with more shit than any country and are surrounded by countries that want them destroyed and preach their destruction every day. ?Yet the UN and the world criticize Israel for any action they take and place them on the same moral footing as the foes that they respond to. ?The facts I have stated pretty much demonstrate why I will not condemn Israel for their actions. ?Any other country would have a similar, if not more lethal, response. ?Israel is the only country that I have seen take dramatic steps towards peace (leaving Gaza). ?This was met with the election of Hamas and the continuance of terrorism. ?Let me ask you, how in the heck can you be 50/50.

It is the constant justification, apologies, and attempt to understand radical Islam that perpetuates its existence.

well either its my writing style or your inability to decipher my tone, but you are 100% wrong.  I do not enjoy reading about children being decapitated, or families who have no homes to go home to or about a country who was on the rise being bombed into the stone ages.  For your information, I am actually part Lebanese believe it or not.  I am not "pro israel" I am simply anti-terror.  I want this crisis to end just as much as you do. 

Did you even read my post?  Did I say "yeah, blow those f'ing bastards away" or "yes, finally israel is going to bitch slap those terrorist bastards".  No I have not.  Please stop reading into things to turn me into some kind of war junkie b/c you can't respond to my points.  The simple fact is the terror groups started this violence and israel is now responding/defending itself. 

My point was, violence brings more violence.  This display of fire power by israel should not be surprising.  They have been attacked and are now responding with their full force.  Please stick to the facts of what is being said and not to what you assume is being said.

Lastly, and I think I speak for other Americans in this discussion, stop lumping us all together as "Pro-Israel" and "Pro-violence/war".  You are really showing your bias toward the US when you make sweeping/broad assumptions like that.  As of now the USA isn't even a part of this recent conflict and are staying out of it (as is most of the world) for the time being.

And this is not another poiltical thread? Oh come on people... :hihi: :hihi:

Drew, let's file this one under the "human relations" column.

I still had a question as to why the majority of folks in the neighboring Lebanon area would allow Hezbollah to run rampant.  My guess is that it's similar to the drug situation in American metropolitan areas like DC, NY, and LA.  The dealers have a habit of killing "snitches."  I'd imagine the Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists use the same method.  Someone should send those guys one of the "Stop Snitchin'" t-shirts that have gotten so popular in the poor, urban American areas.  :hihi:

It's just all so fucking sad.   :(   

fair enough, and i'm glad you feel that way.
but some of your words sure did imply edgy views.
violence brings more violence ? ... therefore israel is doing the wrong thing.

how is this war composing a long term strategy ? it is not.

What I meant by "violence brings more violence" is its an expected response.  no established nation is going to be attacked and not respond.

Violence, sadly, can lead to a peacful, long term situation -- just look at the USA's use of nuclear weapons in WW2.

I think the time for talks in the middle east is over, it hasn't worked.  A long term solution is for the arab nations to recognize israel, disarm and disband the terrorist groups that are within their nations, stop supplying and funding the terrorist groups, disarm Hamas and Hezbollah and begin peaceful discussions. 

This isn't rocket science.  If the arab nations want peace, STOP ATTACKING THEIR NEIGHBOR!

Truthfully, as I said before, they don't want peace with Israel, they want NO ISRAEL.  The radical elements of the arab world will not rest in peace until Israel is off the map.  All the talk in the world isn't going to change that.  As others have mentioned, Israel did make concessions with land and forced their own people to leave their homes and nothing changed, they were still attacked with rockets and suicide bombers. 

There would be much more sympathy if instead of suicide bombers and rockets they tried peacful marches and rallies....look at ghandi, martin luther king jr., the womans rights movement in the states --- all non violent and all successful. 

Hannahat is right on here.  Good points.  :peace:

Hamas kidnaps an Iraqi soldier on Israel's southern border.

Hezbolah kidnaps more Iraqi soldiers on Israel's northern border.

Israel let's everyone know that won't go unanswered.

People whine and moan.

What's the old saying?? You mess with the bull, you get the horns.....

Alright, I'll weigh in on this.

Let me first say this: I am by no means an anti-Semite.  I am only anti-Zionism.

That being said, I sympathize with Palestine-- they were essentially pushed off their land by England in 1948 so the Jews could move in-- the ultimate culmination of the Zionist movement of 1880-1950.  How would you feel if you were essentially pushed off your land and told "Hey, move over so your biggest enemy of the last 2000 years can move in on this land"?  Then when you try to fight back, you get annhilated by a superior military backed by the major powers of the world and get restricted even further.

The only reason Israel exists is because of excessive guilt felt by most of the world for treating Jews as a separate race, eventually allowing them to be condemned under Hitler in the Holocaust. (By the way, the comment was made that Iran's leader denies the Holocaust happened.  I suggest you look into this further.  There is almost NO ONE who denies there was excessive persecution, imprisonment, and killing of Jews in Nazi Germany.  What is consistantly called "Holocaust denial" is really "Holocaust revisionism."  All that has been questioned on any basis is how many were killed, how they died, and why.  No one that I can find will refute the fact that the Holocaust happened, just to what extent.)

However, the Arab nations have gone on about this all wrong, as has really everyone involved.  The reason Arab countries have to resort to terror is because it's all they know.  When you have nothing to use to fight, you have to rely on anything you can get your hands on.  If that means guerilla warfare or even solo warfare (terrorism), so be it.

Since June 28, Israel has re-occupied Gaza, cut off their electricity and water, bombed an Islamic University, may have used biological or chemical weapons in Gaza, bombed the Beirut airport, bombed the Beirut-Damascus highway, bombed the bridges over the Awali and Litani rivers, bombed all over the Israel-Lebanon border, bombed Baalbek, sets up a blockade against Lebanon, and sank a Cambodian ship in Lebanese waters.  All Lebanon has done is see Hezbollah kidnap an Israeli troop or two, bomb Haifa (after being attacked), and bomb an Israeli warship.

On April 4, 2003, a European Union (EU) poll named Israel as the ?greatest threat to world peace.?  The American media wants to portray this as the innocent victim (Israel) defending itself against evildoers, while nearly turning a blind eye to any injustices by Israel that have led to retaliation.  On June 27, 2006, the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) proved the EU right by reoccupying Gaza, savagely terrorizing the civilian population, blowing up their electric/water generating facilities, conducting a mass arrest of their elected officials, and also, without just cause, provoking the Syrians. In response to the repeated shelling by the IOF of Gaza, Israel?s Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, wisecracked, ?Nobody dies from being uncomfortable!? When he addressed a Joint Session of the U.S. Congress, on May 24, 2006, Olmert received 38 breaks of applause and 18 standing ovations from that entity of mostly lapdogs. This is also the same Israeli leader, who, paraphrasing George Orwell's ?Animal Farm,? said that he had a ?deep regret? about the effects of some IOF?s operations which had killed 14 innocent Palestinians in just nine days, but that the lives of Israeli citizens were ?even more important.?

What would have happened if Israel hadn't been created?

* 1. The U.S. would not have any enemies in the Islamic World because we would have no Israel to support and be despised by the neighboring Arab countries
* 2. There would be no Al-Qaeda Terrorist Network as they would not have an enemy like Israel and its allies.
* 3. There would be no 9/11 attacks.
* 4. There would be no USA Patriot Law.
* 5. There would be no Homeland Security Agency.
* 6. The Israeli Lobby?s "unmatched power" over U.S. foreign policy, for over four decades, would not had existed (its support for the Iraqi War was deemed by experts to be "critical").
* 7. There would also not have been any Neocon ideologues; like Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Richard Perle, et al, to help, (along with other "Special Interests"), to push the U.S. into a quasi-legal war with Iraq.
* 8. Iran would not be the next target for U.S. aggression. (No Israel means no "A Clean Break" document, meaning no Israeli Lobby, which means no Neocons, and therefore no need for the U.S. to attack Iran.)
* 9. Jonathan Pollard, wouldn?t be in prison for stealing U.S. military secrets and hawking them to Israel.
* 10. The three million-plus Palestinians, who were forcefully dispersed from their homeland, since 1948, by the IOF, would, instead, be living happily there today, in a free and independent state of Palestine. There would be no Apartheid Wall, or as a corollary, no Hamas organization.
* 11. Jerusalem would have a vibrant Christian population.
* 12. The 2,544 Americans who have died in Iraq would be alive; and the 18,777, who have been seriously wounded there, would be fully participating in our Republic. U.S. taxpayers would have an additional $295 billion, (the cost of the war), in the treasury to use to serve the social needs of the people. Universal Health Care would be a real possibility and Social Security would not be in jeopardy. Iraq would be at peace. There would be no Gitmo Bay detention center, or an Abu Ghraib Prison, or a reason for the Bush-Cheney Gang to gut Habeas Corpus. No need for it to also employ torturers, or chemical weapons, or hold detainees without charges or trial. The Geneva Convention would be respected. The tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, who have died as a result of the war, would instead be alive today.
* 13. The battle to save our planet, its fragile ecosystem, its fast vanishing animal life and plants and to combat global warming, would be issue#1. Instead, we are perpetually bombarded with propaganda about defending ?Israel?s security.?
* 14. If there was no Israel, then the "five dancing Israelis" on 9/11 wouldn?t have been arrested. They were nailed after ?celebrating? in NJ, while watching the Twin Towers collapsed.
* 15. U.S. taxpayers would be $140 billion richer! This is the staggering amount they have shelled out over the last 58 years to support the interests of the Zionists.
* 16. On June 13, 2006, the IOF killed ten Palestinians, including three medical workers and two children, in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, labeled the missile attack an example of "state terrorism." Only God knows how many Palestinians the Israelis have actually wasted since 1948; or exactly how many refugees it has created, or how many homes, a la Oliver Cromwell, the IOF have demolished. None of this would have been possible without the country of Israel.
* 17. One of the reasons the Warren Commission failed to properly investigate the murder of JFK was because of Arlen Specter (R-PA). He was then a "Special Counsel" to the Commission. He concocted the preposterous ?Magic Bullet? theory, which shut down any real conspiracy-type probe. It is also interesting to note, that Jacob Rubenstein, AKA, "Jack Ruby," Lee Harvey Oswald?s murderer, had close ties to Meyer Lansky?s National Crime Syndicate. I believe the answer to who really plotted JFK?s killing, died with Oswald. In any event after JFK?s death, Israel?s nuclear weapons program, which Kennedy had opposed, went ahead. U.S. aid to Israel also increased dramatically.
* 18. There would have been no reason for a French Ambassador to refer to Israel as "that shitty little country."  In fact, the Jews of the world would have been liberated to fulfill their deepest spiritual quest, as embodied in their religion - Judaism. According to the highly respected Orthodox Rabbi, Dovid Yisroel Weiss, "Zionism has hijacked Judaism." The Rabbi insists that, "Zionism creates anti-Semitism.  And we know, Zionism is the root cause for the pain, suffering, and bloodshed of the Jewish people, and, [the Zionists] are the greatest factory of anti-Semitism worldwide.  Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same. They are diametrically opposite.  We should not mistake one for the other.  And, we shouldn?t be responsible for the actions of what the Zionists do.  Now, another of the problems that emanate actually from the Zionist Movement is the fact that they are encroaching upon the rights of the Palestinian people, the indigenous people, who are living there. And, this is terribly wrong. It is against every concept of the Torah.  So, whatever they are doing is totally wrong!"
* 19. Thousands of Israelis have died attempting to build a nation in a land, Palestine, which belonged to another people, the Palestinians. Their deaths would have been avoided.
* 20. The widespread spying on Americans, without a court order, by operatives of the Bush-Cheney Gang, would have never happened. (No Israel. No 9/11. No spying on U.S. citizens.)

Like I said, I have no problem with Judaism.  I have no problem with people who identify themselves as Jewish.  The problem stems from the Zionists and the creation of Israel.  And I do realize Israel isn't going anywhere-- I can certainly accept that.  But that doesn't mean that every side involved has to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.  Unfortunately, it all has gone too far and we are now standing on the verge of armageddon.

Perhaps the Mayan calendar is right.

Beautiful post Duffman, couldn't have said it better myself.? ?:yes:

Looks like some people have gone off their meds.

Israel has broken international law as well for years.



Israel has targeted civilians just as Hezbollah has. What is the difference here?


Who said they were excessive? Are you saying I did?

The only point I made was that they killed civilians as well. Watch the news lately? That is all they are reporting: civilians targeted by the Israel military. This makes them no better than Hezbollah in my book.



Who is whining and moaning? And about what?

Is this directed toward me or someone else?

It can't be me, my doctor only uses shock treatment.........

Not necessarily, what pissed bin laden off was when we were given the right to use Saudi Arabia as a base of operations in the first gulf war.  Bin Laden considered this an insult and thought the US's presence tainted his holy land.  With or without Israel, there would still be oil in the region and we would still have a vested interest in the land and would still be getting involved I'm sure.  Don't blame 9-11 on Israel, blame it on the fanatics who flew the planes.

I also wouldn't blame the Israeli people for Britain handing the land over to them.  If the Palestinians should be pissed at anyone, it should be for Britain for displacing them in the first place.

I respect your opinion, but your logic is flawed.  You are saying Israel's existance gave birth to the terror groups?  Nobody forced them to strap bombs on themselves and kill innocent civilians....there were plenty of peaceful things they could have done to get their land back or at least make concessions.  Instead, they chose violence. 

Aren't you the same guy that said the United States inflicted 911 upon itself?

And for a so called libertarian to be advocating social programs such as nationalized medicine leaves me wondering just how confused he might be.

See now both of you have started with personal attacks instead of substance...........

Did you really have to go there?

It's not personal at all.  I see his argument as a regressive argument which is a flawed argument as best proven by the great philosopher Thomas Aquinas.  It's a continuing problem I see; people debating the past and playing monday night quarterback.  The issue at hand it complex and involved, but only one side's position is the eradication of the other.  Israel wasn't "created" in 1948.  It's existed in some form as far as recorded history goes.  Judaism didn't sprout up in Europe you know.  In fact, Judaism predates Islam by a few thousand years and before formal borders were even really established and recognized.  Jews have just as much a right to that land as the Palestinians; both have a historic and religious interest in the region. 
   To all those who argue that violence and war have never established anything, have you completely forgotten WWII?  How about every other border establishment or claim and rise to power.  Rome didn't conquer the known world through negotiations over tea.  China didn't unite over a candlelit dinner.  War is a horrendous thing and in today's "civilized" age should be used as a last resort.  But if the 20th century has taught us anything it's that appeasement is a fools game the only results in greater death and carnange, but should the appropriate steps been taken sooner it could/is greatly reduced.  Iran is working on nuclear weapons, anyone who argues otherwise is a fool.  Iran has ties with the same terrorist organizations that run rampant in Lebanon, Syria and the Palestine to name a few.  Those nations interested in the longevity of their survival are obligated to neutralize the threat before it becomes reality.  The Arab world by and large wants Israel off the map and for the life of me I can't see how some of you expect Israel to negotiate peace and treaties with a culture/region that wishes their destruction.  If Israel gave half of their country to the Palestinians/Jordanians/whomever, the violence would still rage on because it would never be enough.  To those fanatics it will never be enough until the rest of the world praises Allah and accepts their warped/ass backwards views on society and the world.  If you think born again Christians are loony and living in the past, you should really begin to examine the beliefs and practices of the majority of the Islam world.  If you're looking for human rights and peace you couldn't be further off target.

Blair, Annan call for troops in Israel By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer
 32 minutes ago
 


British Prime Minister Tony Blair and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Monday for the deployment of international forces to stop the bombardment of Israel.

"The blunt reality is that this violence is not going to stop unless we create the conditions for the cessation of violence," Blair said after talks with Annan on the margins of the Group of Eight summit. "The only way is if we have a deployment of international forces that can stop bombardment coming into Israel."

Annan appealed to Israel to abide by international law, spare civilian lives and infrastructure.

He also said that the United Nations was considering evacuation plans for U.N. dependents from Lebanon, while Blair said Britain was looking at the possibility of creating an air bridge for its citizens.

Their comments came a day after world leaders forged a unified response at their G-8 summit to the crisis in the Middle East, blaming Hezbollah and Hamas for the escalating violence and recognizing Israel's right to defend itself ? although they called on the Jewish state to show restraint.

"We cobbled together a very important statement," President Bush told reporters on Monday.

"I am most pleased the leaders came to say that we condemn violence. We honor innocent life," Bush said before heading into a meeting with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. "For the first time, we've really begun to address with clarity the root causes of the conflict ... and that is terrorist acts."

finally.

as for your previous post. what can i say.
It lacks hope and respect. It lacks understanding.
and as usual it's 100% oriented. see we might be defending palestine and lebanon, but we are aware of the atrocities and the problem of HZB and terrorism.
on the other hand, israel protector lack to find any flaw in their loved country.


Israel deserve its land. alright. i guess americans need to move now and give the land back to the indians, i mean naive, native american.

This isn't some game. The only way to get rid of terrorism is to destroy it. Not buy it off with weapons, money, drugs, land,etc. This shit is pure evil, and you don't pamper it. The decades of pampering is why its so out of control now. These groups aren't interested in peaceful co-existence. They wish for the annihilation of democracy, freedom, civilization,etc. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not interested in going back to the Dark Ages, and hopefully the leaders of the civilized world aren't either.

These groups have to be destroyed and wiped off the map. If that requires a few innocents getting killed, then so be it. Let the bombs drop. Countries like the US, Russia, UK, France, Germany,etc. need to form an alliance and kill off this cancer once and for all. To not take such drastic measures would in essence be admitting defeat.

so,

HZB is indeed present in Lebanon.
The population was not on the HZB side.
Some were, as it was democratically placed in the parlments.

The HZB has, indeed, attacked Israel, but you cannot talk about provocation here, as the issue between these 2 forces go back long.
Israel cannot pretend to be provoked or attacked, cause you can always go back to something prior.

Anyway, Israel chose to attack. That's their choice.

Objective : destroy the HZB.
Mean : bomb airport, harbor, roads, city
Chance of success: 0%

hey, not to be mean, but your parents are calling, they say they forgot to educate you :)
and they're sorry for all the slapping while you were young, turned out it didnt help :)

no really. read what you wrote. makes to sense.

killing terrorism by bombing cities ? ahahhaha. ahahhaha . that was funny.

Would you rather pamper them and give them everything they want? They like to speak with violence, so it must be given to them in very large doses. Once they get tastes of their own medicine, they always run like cowards. Now they have to be killed when they run. There is no pretty solution to this mess.

are you a religious man ?

I was just talking to my old man about this situation over breakfast this morning...

Personally, If I had my way, Id just have a huge wall seperate us in North America entirely from the Middle East.

The whole thing with Israel has been goin' on since the end of WW2, and it got fuckin' ridiculous a few decades ago.

As James said, terrorism is like a cancer that needs to be killed, and I have no side on this matter.

Israel will bomb the living hell out of Lebanon, but guess what Lebanon will do in retaliation... ::)

What does that have to do with it? Oh yeah, I forgot. This is a holy war. :hihi:

 :hihi:

Now that was priceless...

If anything this "holy war" should teach people, and in particular the youth of today, that religion is perhaps best practiced in you're own home..free of judgement and violent retaliation.. : ok:

Amen!

You're doing well kids, keep it up. : ok:

I don't usually get into talking about Middle East Conflicts but I just want to say that it's sad that we can't find peace in today's world.

I was just thinking about that.

Even just a decade ago, you really didn't hear about nearly as much global conflict as we have today.

Life is really to short isn't it?

Great idea! ?Imagine if there was enormous ocean separating North America from the Middle East? ?All our problems would be solved. ;) :peace:

I think violence should be answered with violence - but only against the guilty parties. ?You do not bomb civilians, collateral or otherwise. ?It's obviously much easier to bomb indiscriminately, but it's flat out evil if you know innocent people would die. ?Besides, it just breeds more terrorism. ?

Don't these countries have access to hired assassins? ?Any decent hitman can get access to the heads of these terrorist organizations and then take care of business.

Yeah. Bring back Bill Clinton, Yasser Arafat and Yitzak Rhabin and life will be peaches n cream. :hihi:

ahaha ahhaha ahahah. ahaha. ah .....ah.
i HOPE that was sarcastic, or maybe you missed out some geography lesson dude :)

terrorism cannot be killed by bombing places. simple.
terrorism feeds on violence.

simple iteration =
israel bomb his neighbor
the world hates them
the usa help them
the world hates them
new terrorists are raised
and new building are collapsing in NYC.

what's sad about you guys, is that we didnt rejoy in 9/11, we didnt do the " they got the taste of their own medecine" , when we saw the corpses of thousands fatasses in NYC, we thought it was sad.

but hey, that's just the way i was raised. i guess i'll have to give some phone calls to some member's mom here, uh uh jameslofton? ;)

as long as israel won't get that bombs dont kill terrorims, the middle east is screwed, i mean p?rt of it, some countries are smiling right now looking at the oil barrel price


PEACE

Now you're just trying to piss people off. The reason normal people didn't "rejoice" on 9/11 is because we did nothing to deserve it. The only people who rejoiced were muslims. I will never forget all those Palestinians dancing in the street on 9/11. They should have been choking on napalm minutes after their celebrations. They aren't dancing now, are they? Funny how they dance to other people's suffering but don't dance to their own.

For a guy that started this thread promising not to stir shit up, you sure as heck have done the total oppostite. Your broad interpretation of america and isreal is BS. The guy with the most comments in this thread is you. The only thing you have created in this thread that as soon as someone has a different opinion than yours you beat them down until they do not reply anymore.

There is no way to have a discussion, with people or persons that already have there mind made up. Treehuggers and metrosexuals can kiss my ass.

For every point you have there are many that have a good counter points.

Obviously you do not like isreal or the us.

How can you blame the us for the hate in the middle east. There has been hate and fighting going on there for centurys.

So it is ok for terriorist to kill countless innocent humans of numerous races and just let them be. Fighting them or killing them does no good. That makes no sense. The people that are terroriost will perfrom terrorism until they are dead. So I say make them all dead.

There has been a global war with terriorism for ever and there was one for years before 9/11. ?You can not blame the us for everything.

My question to you is this. It is funny how the world forgets that when in a time of need the us has always been there. Sure the us is not perfect nor is any other country. But your logic in your previous post can not go unchallenged.

I get it now, you think we should leave the bin laden's , the Adolf's, the Milosevic's, basayev, Saddam's and countless other people alone. because when we let them alone they do not cause problems.

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of innocent people that are dead.

Unfortunately you can never rid the world of all these people but you sure as hell can not ignore it.

The best thing that could happen to Lebanon is for Isreal to rid them of hezballoh. Period. The world including the us will give them money to rebuild there infrastucture and they will be able to be accepted freely in the world once hezzbaloh is gone.

Oh and innocent people will die in the process, but there is no way around it, you have 2 choices you live with terrorism and let them go on killing innocent people or you kill them and relize that some innocent poeple will die but maybe just maybe someday there will be no more terrorism.

Oh and there is no negotiating, it is one thing when it is a country your dealing with but when it is groups within groups there is no way to isolate them and deal diplomatically.

This says it best.


(http://www.coolsmilies.net/angry/blowup.gif)

And this shit is allowed to go with out any sort of condemnation?  So the vicitims of 9/11 were just a bunch of fatasses.  Fuck you.  If I didn't know that I had more class and have a bigger impact on this world than you will ever have, I might resort to your naieve and obviously uneducated level.  Maybe it's time you lay off the video games and get a clue as to how the real world works.

 Nice post gunslinger

:yes: : ok:

That footage you saw on the news wasn't from September 11, but rather footage from a celebration in the Middle East MONTHS before any attacks on US soil.  It was aired on September 11, claimed to be from that day, but was taken from events previous to the attacks.

I was going to mention this. But regardless, celebrations like these most probably occurred in regions of the area where the footage in question was shot.

Another guy with a bunch of what ifs and fancy words. ?The indians were pushed of these lands also so did you donate your house to a native american.

Yea and where would the world be if the us did not join world war 2.

Go figure you live in the land of the free, you are intitled to voice your opinions in this country regardless of your point of view, Becuase americans died fighting for your right.

Hezbollah is run by Iran, the main Muslim Shiite country.
Hamas is issued from a Sunni Egyptian organization called Muslim Brotherhood.

Sunnis (Saddam's partisans) and Shiites are killing each other in Iraq.

Saudi Arabia (Sunni) and Iran (Shiite) are enemies not only because the way they see Islam is different but also because both want to have as much influence as they can in the region.

All of them hate Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah would be killing each other if there was no Israel.

Oh, by the way, few people remember that Jews were expropriated and expeled from Arab countries in 1948 after having to endure legal discriminations for decades (google : 'dhimma')...

USA are supporting Israel because of strategic reasons, not because of any sympathy for Zionism.

Rights are god-given and therefore need not be fought for.  No need to espouse this right-wing rhetoric that our freedoms have ever been fought for and need to be defended.  Ever heard the term "inalienable rights"?  It means no one and nothing can take those rights away.  If these rights cannot be taken away, why fight for them?  No one has fought for my rights, no one has died for them.  Rights are GIVEN by no person and protected by no person.

Oh boy now I have heard it all. Yea you can practise that thought because you live hear, try living in other parts of the world with that mentality. 

Which god are you refering to if I might ask. Or which religion

There's only one God, and he doesn't give you 20 virgins for killing innocent people. : ok:

Yea I understand that but what is he refering to.

Oh and great post by the way.

I tried staying out of this thread the best I could.. but wow Duffman. You honestly believe no one fought for your freedom and that you just "have it"? Lol.

Oh, and hell yes freedom can be taken away. Wow. What do you think most dictators end up doing? What is the totalitarian state known for? In states like those try using your "god given" free speech and you'll be dead or (edit: in) jail.

Freedom needs to be defended because theres always someone who ends up trying to put limits on it and whom eventually gets rid of it entirely.

But good luck with that.

Hey man, only a few short decades ago my idea could have worked...but now they have missiles and all that jazz that can lob right over any wall.. :hihi:

As said before though, it's kind of hard to bomb only the guilty parties when they hide like cowards amongst innocent civilians...

You know what primarily fuels terrorism? POVERTY!

People over in Lebanon, Iran, etc turn on North American television and see rich assholes on shows like The OC for example living "the american dream" and they think, we've got jackshit...let's bomb these rich  fuckers.. :-\

Hitmans could easily solve the problem sure, but once again, it's all a matter of tracking the main guilty party down, and for all we know, they could have look-alikes just like Saddam Hussein.. :hihi:

By the way, I think some people are starting to get in ultra-defensive mode...let's take it down a notch so this topic doesn't get locked, because Ive missed a topic that's even remotely political.. ;D

Duffman, so the world would be perfect if not for the creation of Israel?  A lot of your assumptions are way off base.  For example, Al Aqeada was formed first to fight the Soviets in Afganistan and then turned on the US for having troops in their Holy Land (Saudi Arabia).  It had nothing to do with the Jews.  Iran grew to hate us for our support of the Shah in the 70s.

This is a bad situation where there can be no real winners.  Israel is getting a bit carried away but from their perspective enough is enough.  Hezbolah bit off a lot more than it can chew with this one but was it on the orders of Iran?  Some are calling this a proxy war and that may be a fair assessment.  Notice the lack of talk about Iran's nuclear ambitions?

america should nuke that damn islamic places,..

All this talk of rights and freedom is off-topic and should end now. ?You're all doing really well to keep your cool, please make sure it stays that way.

WHAT-EVER, comments about 9/11 are also off-topic and just asking for trouble. ?Please be more careful.

Lul...that's just stupid.  *SMITE*

Agreed...we had a good discussion going for about 3-4 pages.  No need to ruin it with finger pointing, cursing and insults (from both sides of the arguement).

I see this cooling off pretty soon.  Hezbollah is feeling the pressure from the bombing and the world community is starting to get involved.  I have a feeling the soldiers will be returned soon and the attacks will cease (for a while at least).  Iran and Syria can sabre rattle all they want, but they will not directly get involved, the world won't stand for it.

The key will be to see what the world and lebanon does to stop it from happening again.  Will there be a crackdown on Hezbollah from the arab world, or will some kind of peace keeping force be put on Israel/Lebanon border?

I really wonder what would happen if the captured soldiers are killed. 

i said some stupid shit cause people were talking out of their ass.
that's all.
so it's ok to mock and talk about "normal casualties" when it's about lebanese but when it's about new yorker. fuck that shit.
some guys are way out of line, just like i did, and the fact that they were shocked prove it all.


i dont know. we don't have our mind made up. we see bad and evil on both sides. while yu guys are just 100% your way. THAT is the problem.

PEACE anyway ;)

*Resists the urge to respond to the shots taken regarding my views on freedom to keep this from getting locked.*

I think HannaHat is right on this-- we've seen the brunt of it.  The kidnapped troops will likely be released, however relations between Israel and Lebanon will be very shaky for a while.  Syria and Iran won't do much because anything they try will be dealt back to them in spades.

However, the missile Lebanon launched that sunk the Israeli warship was made in Iran.  So make of that what you will.

Is there any realistic evidence that suggests Israel's soldiers are in fact still alive?

They've kidnapped quite a few so it's hard to keep track sometimes, but if anything, the one's who were kidnapped weeks ago, and kind of triggered this shit are no doubt dead by now, or at the very least in critical condition.. :-\

Damn, I just came back to this thread after leaving for a little while, and a couple pages are already in the books!  BTW, I found some statements from "Watever" particularly vile...and it doesn't matter which side you stand on this issue.  The Pentagon is one thing...but a building full of innocents with not one thread of linkage to aggression is appalling and horriffic .  It is the true essence of terrorism.  "Watever," you've made some good points before you got carried away, please think through your words before typing.  Read and re-read the post if you have to.     

I had one simple question about what folks thought was the primary reason Lebanese citizens, police, military, and elected officials let an organization like Hezbollah operate there?  I put forth it may be fear...but perhaps it could be the hatred of their neighbor to the south Israel that keeps them from reporting Hezbollah terrorists in their midsts?? 

I'm not making myself out to be some hero, because I'm not, and if I was in their position, I'd fear for my life and not risk the beheadings of me and my family to try and bring terrorists to judgement.  But...I would seriously get the hell out of there.  Yes, I know, alot of poor civilians don't have the means to leave...but damn. 

Any thoughts on that?

P.S.  Don't worry about Iranian nuclear weaponry...Israel will destroy their capacity to create it 5 years before it's operational.  At least I hope!  The bigger worry is proliferation of nuclear material/weapons out of a rogue state like North Korea.  There are no easy answers.

Axl!  Please release Chinese Democracy so I can forget all this shit and just rock with Watever and HannaHat and AxlsMainman and duffman and all Gunners and forget all this nonsense, and just come together!  Cum-Ba-Fuckin-Yaa!   :peace:

Just b/c a few people pushed your buttons doesn't mean you had the right to lash out the way you did and insult the dead that way.  I for one have had a very civil convo with you and your remarks about the people in NYC, my fellow new yorkers, was just retarded.  Is it that easy to get under your skin and make you lose your cool??  By trying to "get back" at others, you insulted those who were hearing you out and were respecting your opinion.  I can't say that I do much anymore though.

Anyways, Axl4Prez, I don't think its so much as out of fear, I think the avg. Lebanese citizen LIKES hezbollah and supports them.  Maybe not after all of this - much of the reports I've been reading have the avg. Lebanese citizen saying stuff like they are mad at Hezbollah and they despise Israel...its just an all around hate-fest.  I don't think the avg. Lebanese person ever got too upset though when Hezbollah rockets killed some Israelis though.

Thats nothing new though, Syria has funded/supplyed Hezbollah years and it wouldn't shock me to learn that Iran has funded groups as well.  If anything this will only justify US/Israeli action vs. Iran in the future if they don't back down on their nuke program.

AxlsMainMan - I read a day or two ago that Israeli officials thought their troops were most likely alive and well.

Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organization in the same way that Al-Qaeda is (or even the IRA was). They aren't training in remote mountain camps in rough, uninhabited terrain - they're a political and military party/movement which essentially controls southern Lebanon. There's no one even to report them too, they hold more power in that region than the Lebanese government - here 's an introdictory link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4314423.stm

I dont think Lebanon should be nuked for what has occured. Although Iran and Syria are getting awfully close for the need of a radiation bath. That situation will just get worse over the next few years. A massive preemptive strike will be needed in the near future, whether the rest of the world approves or not. Its like I said earlier, you cant play games with these people. The only language they speak is violence.

I'm not optimistic about this situation getting under control. We have seen no recent "proof of life" on the Israeli soldiers. Whenever muslims kidnap people they love to show them off. Thats not the case here, so the troops are probably already dead. World War III?? :nervous: I dont know about that, but both previous world wars started with minor events. Maybe this is that event. Some would say World War III started on 9/11.

I agree with you totally.. But when do we draw the line.. The israelis are willing to live side by side with the palestinians.. but the small groups that are fed by terrorist states like Iran and Syria don't want to live next to the jews.. idk I guess people tend to forget that the jewish community was nearly wiped off the face of the earth 60 years ago.. so why dont people understand why there so damn vigilant!

Dude!! you are completly clueless arent you? A Terrorist Kid naps a Jewish Soldier.. = Israel does not want to deal with terrorist.. Why Because Legal Govt's do not deal with terrorist.. Think Of it like this.. Say that jewish soldier was to be your kid brother or sister.. Or lets say your mom was at the grocerie store and she happend to get a chunck of shrapnel in the throat.. Isreal does not attack them inless they are attacked! I know it's hard for you to understand that..

They did not Sink an Warship.. They Damaged it..

According to the Red Cross they are.

There you go again...............



If you want to get the thread locked, yes. Intelligent/calm discussion..........no.

That is what I have always said. Israel has the 4th largest Nuclear program in the world. They have nothing to fear from Iran. They have enough nuke power to blow them off the map in an instant. The leader in Iran was posturing to keep his base, and do some international saber waiving.

I find it very ironic that we invaded a country that was not threatening us, yet while N. Korea fires missiles into the ocean, we now speak of diplomacy and using the UN. Although nothing surprises me at this point.

Personally reading this thread has been rather disappointing. The general thought that everybody in the middle east is a terrorist, that civilians are merely casualties of war, that people in Iran just hate us for our way of life, leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Mainly because it shows that nobody has learned a darn thing yet. As the violence escalates in that hellhole, the urge to look inward for answers and being honest about our role in the middle east completely vanishes. With that attitude, expect to see the bloodbath continue for some time. All sides mentioned have acted in such a way that would fall under the definition of terrorist; all of them.


(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/56/terrorismqo8xg7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

When Hesbolah kidnapped two IDF soldiers, Israel had every opportunity to react with a measured response. Blowing up the entire infrastructure (and killing civilians including children) of Lebanon lacked that measure.

As I said before, Israel are restoring their deterrence capacity.

What are you talking about, SLC? ?Iran hates us because we are so pretty! ?It has nothing to do with the propping up of puppet regimes, incursions for oil, or generations of greed. ?

In some ways countries like Sausi and Egypt and Jordasn may like to see Iran get blasted. ?First because Iran is mostly Shia and the others are Sunni and secondly because Iran's heritage is Persian versus Arab for the others. ?There is no love lost for Iran in the region. ?Where is Sadam when you need him!?

As I said before they went way out of line. Killing civilians, is an overblown response.


 
Yea, they all do look alike don't they? Over here we are all different looking and oh so pretty. I'm almost jealous of myself as I see my reflection bounce back off this computer monitor.......

Or nothing to do with overthrowing their democratically elected official and installing a brutal dictator in his place. Nah.......

That is actually a really good point. At some point in the future, politicians,historians,etc. will most likely look back on the Iraq invasion and see that the big mistake wasn't just as simple as "invading the wrong country", but changing the balance of power in the Middle East, which could have dire consequences in the years/decades ahead.

A few good points, SLC. We invade a country WE claim has enough chemical weapons to kill the world 4 times over, while ignoring countries threatening to blow everyone off the map. If Iran had been dealt with in 2003, we obviously wouldn't be having this problem now. But we had smaller and more insignificant fish to fry. Civilian deaths happen in every conflict. There's no way around it. Were they concerned about hitting the WTC full of civilians? Funny how when they kill civilians its ok, but when the military does it its a travesty. They kill civilians on purpose, we dont. Big fucking difference.

Israel is reacting in a very measured way. ?They are measuring how big a building is and then find an appropriate bomb for its size.

I find it hard to judge Israel though. ?It would be like the Mexican coming here and blowing us up on a regular basis instead of just taking our jobs!!

On a serious note, the US helped Iran on both borders.  We took out Sadam and also the Taliban.  Both were rivals of Iran and their brand of Islam and their intentions to dominate the region.

the third world war is unavoidable- any one ever hear of Mubas?

No, enlighten please.

The youth of Iran will get rid of Ahmadinejad's reactionary regim. Most of young people in Iran don't hate Western culture. On the contrary, they are fascinated by it.

Nostradamus says the 3rd antichrist will be born in the middle east and bring out ww3-   his name will not be mubas-  but something very close.      the first was Napone or something like that-  turned out to be Napoleon, the second was named Hister (guess who that turned out to be).   and mubas is the 3rd yet to happen,

Mubas...

(http://www.godlovesgeorgebush.com/26_Walmart.jpg)
 :nervous:

Mubas said backwards sounds like  Sadum (saddam?)

and israel would be the mexicans ? ;)

Alrightie, lets start again on good bases.

First, i would like to hear you guys on the provocation matter. I personnaly think that we cannot talk about provocation in any ways, because the situation in the middle east has been going for decades, and at that point you cannot just go back to a specific event. Everybody's faulty.

The HZB did kidnapp some israeli soldiers, but they were retaliation of what happend in 2000.
in 2000, the HZB pushed Tsahal back into israel after years of Occupation. At that point, Israel and HZB arranged some hostages exchange, but it didnt go as smooth as it should have. What happend on july the 12th is a just the continuation of the tension.

Israel has occupied south lebanon. Israel still control the Farm Area in south lebanon, and according to Lebanon prime minister has planted a lot of mines at the frontier INSIDE lebanon and do not want to give the map.


Israel has the right to defend itself against the HZB attacks.
I give you that.
Israel is hated by most of his neighbors and therefore is in a tensed situation. yes.

What are the open objectives of this "war" ?
1 - get the 2 prisoners back
2 - try to destroy HZB

1 - (what happened to that other prisoner kidnapped by the hamas in palestine? forgotten?)
How on earth do you deal with a hostage situation by bombing the place? These guys must have missed some SWAT classes.

2 - again, history has shown us that you cannot deal with terrorism in open warfare.
even nuking the country won't solve it. Terrorism grows on hate.
as "axlforprez" said The Pentagon is one thing...but a building full of innocents with not one thread of linkage to aggression is appalling and horriffic .
why do i have the feeling that THIS IS excatly what i was saying.
Israel has killed 200 civilians so far, and maybe 2 have some linkage to the HZB.
Same thing.
Israel is acting the way al-quaida do.
Killing innocents because they cannot reach the real objectives.


The HZB. Is a terrorist organisation, alright. But unlike al-quaida (which HZB chief despise), the HZB is only concerned about the sovereignty of lebanon. They work as terrorist, yes. But any official paper will confirm that every action they have taken is firmly related to the protection of Lebanon. There is no terror game, in a sense of fighting the western society or fighting israel for the heck of it.


Moreover, i've stated several time, the HZB is controlled, funded and supported by Syria and Iran.


i can understand you guys views when you're happy Israel is giving HZB the taste of its own medicine ... but right now Israel is just giving Lebanon the taste of Israel's desperation.
Tsahal has been humiliated, and this war is, strategicaly, a way of making up with the past mistakes.

Wat-Ever, I dont think going back to a certain point in the timeline is a way to understand whats going on. Why stop in 2000? Maybe 1995 and the assassination of Yitzak Rhabin. Or 1983 and the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon(which strangely Reagan let go unavenged, unless covert action was really taken). Should Israel go the Reagan route and just pull everything out and head home, and maybe do covert ops over time? Or do you face the problem head on? Either way is very risky. Pull back, and you risk even more kidnappings/attacks. Intensify the conflict, and you risk a much wider conflict that could easily start World War III. The extreme danger of this conflict is that lines are already being drawn in the sand, and sides are being taken. You have the US, Israel, UK(maybe) on one side, and on the other is the Palestinians, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Russia, China(maybe), and a bunch of Euro countries opposed to the US/Israeli position. This could turn into a global conflict within hours(under the right circumstances).

To be honest, I dont think there is a way to understand(or define) what is going on, and what exactly sparked the confrontation. Its open to many interpretations, and the so called "experts" are all giving opinions. The one thing we can all agree on is that its basically thousands of years of history reaching a boiling point, and the hotter it gets, the more countries we will see get involved. Hell, the UN wants an international force there. That right there is a serious mistake. Can you imagine the ramifications of some disaster falling on that international force consisting of troops of all nationalities?

It's a matter of opinion.

under 18s women and children targetting cafes? ridiculous.

btw, if Palestinian movies off his/her property Israelis own it. Neighbours hate it because of the propoganda around israel. And muslim countries "apparently muslim" do help. Look at pakistan

If they are in jail, it must be for some reason. Plus, there's already been Palestinian kamikazes under 18.

In response to SLCPunk's cartoon that featured illegal terrorism and legal militarism...seriously, don't you see the difference in one man attacking a building with only innocent civilians (terrorism) and planes dropping bombs on hostile enemies who are hiding amongst civilians? ?Do you honestly think the innocent civilians who have Hezbollah in their building don't know it? ?I'm not saying these civilians deserve to die, but goddamn, if a gun-toting maniac running from the cops runs into my apartment building (or a couple dozen of them do) then I am getting the fuck out of there! ?Hmm, let's see, I go to work every day...my neighbor always has males aged 13 to 27 years old going in and out with large packages...he never goes to work...he's got friends who wear ski-masks as not to be recognized...come on!

For this matter to get any better, a change in philosophy amongst the Arab community must take hold. ?It's time average citizens give peace a chance. ?HannaHat, maybe you are right about the well-entrenched hatred of Israel as being the factor that prevents average citizens from not putting up with the terrorist scum in their lands. ?Maybe a U.N. force in the region to crush Hezbollah is necessary. ?Sanctions against Syria and Iran for funding the terror war machine will be needed as well.
Unfortunately, I just don't see this happening. ?The only olive branches that seem to come from the other side are wrapped around explosives and packaged as suicide-bombs. ? :(

PS Slashead just answered Sakib's latest comment.  Slashead is right.  Aiding and abetting terrorists is just as bad as committing the act itself (which btw yes there have been and currently are, many underage and female terrorists).  The Israeli forces may have it on tape these bitches are close with the male bombers.  They won't talk?  Guess what?  They won't be released. 

I dont want to support terrorism
but if we wanna have a clear, objective thinking here we cannot fall under sentimalism and clich?s.
i have in the past, used the example of Star Wars, where, the alliance are the heroes. guerrilla is a way of fighting against evil.
yes, if you lived for 20 years in Gaza, you would see terrorism as your only help, the only thing you have. it'd be wrong. but you, yes you, would think that way.


but more importantly, we have to STOP COMPARING suffering and violence
we have to stop weighting the dead lebanese against israel
stop trying to judge what's worst, bombing civilians or blowing up a caf?

both of these actions go nowhere

terrorism lead nowhere. and the people hungry in Gaza feel it
bombing cities lead nowhere, and Israel will understand it in a few weeks, when things calm down, and nothing's changed
just as the USA in iraqj, they will fail. cause they're going the wrong way.


you see, we have to entities using the wrong methods. and they're stuck
- wrong methods, cause they started that way, and they're inter-dependent, therefore can't get out of the loop
- wrong methods because external pressure are leading them that way
---- > iran and syria advocating violence for palestine and lebanon
---- > the usa not stoping israel frenzy

you see.

now one question, and i'd like some answers.
for the israel lovers here
can you state some of the bad points about israel, whats wrong with their policy, their action, they're world strategy ... you know, see if it's not black/white in your heads ...


thanks  PEACE

and for once, i'm proud to be in FRANCE, no matter what you say, FRANCE recent decisions rock ahahah :)

That is ridiculous.  violence is "your only help"?  It should be the last resort.  do they really think an established state is going to cow-tow to a blown up bus or cafe?  Did MLK have to resort to violence after centuries of slavery?  Did Ghandi?  Unless you can win the fight, violence will NEVER solve a thing.  Trust me, if palestine had marched peacefully, staged rallys (maybe a benefit concert like free tibet or something like that even) the world would be on their side.  People don't have sympathy for dead bodies and blood splattered streets/cafes.  If you want to argue israel has been putting down the palestinian peope and making them suffer then show that, talk bout it, don't respond to it with bombs and missles.

That is such a cop out, such a BS excuse for all the recent bloodshed.  EVERYONE has a voice and with todays global communication with the internet and satellites and 24 hour news networks its even easier. 

and instead of supporting these terror groups, other arab nations should work together, work with the UN to PEACEFULLY get concessions.  violence as the only answer is a joke.

France government is so hypocrite... France want to pass themselves off as virtuous... In fact, they are just allied with most of the Arab countries for decades.

omg ! did u just say that ?

and thanks for responding to one line on my post :(

check my last lines :)

Thanks for ignoring my entire post. :no:

I'm french but I have to agree with that. I just never understood this pro-arabic foreign political direction, it's a political suicide. And it's dangerous because islamists feel free to do everything they want in France. It's almost kinda their home country. But in less than a year, it is likely to change: NICOLAS SARKOZY will likely become the next President of France and he is pro-American. He loves USA, he fights islamism, and France will probably stop beeing a massive pro-arabic country. You know, it's time to cut the bridges with those crazy islamists. For too long, France "friendly" cooperate with them... especially the lefties governements (socialists, communists and all that crap)... years after years it became worthier and worthier.... they killed, insulted, injured people, they just brang the chaos in France (especially in the surbubs), and now it must stop. People are fed-up.
It is time to kick them off because they are fanatizing the young teenagers in the surbubs. What happened in London last year (English suicide bombers) could happen tomorow in France too. Interior threat. Don't believe the Islamism just exists in Iran or Syria, it also exists in Europe, and in France. It's time to bring back the republican laws. Sarkozy has enough charisma, courage and volunty to do the job. The law is the law. Everybody should respect the law.

Nice post.

 : ok:

with that attitude I might have to start demanding we call our freedom frys french again.  :peace:

nesquick, just move to israel or pakistan or what ever, if you hate france that much. i mean really.


oh, and for the foreigners, Sarkozy is like a the stupidest mofo on earth, looks like a rat, act like a rat, flirts with racism and populism, he is the worst. everybody hates him. beside 50 years old scared people.

nesquick really.
you don't like france
you love israel
why don't you move ?

Hey you need to calm down, he stated his opinion and you do not like it. Deal with it.

You got all pissy a few pages back and then some started to fight back at you becuase of your comments you got personel and then had a hissy fit and got mean.

You started this thread, keep on topic instead of giving low blows everytime someone disagrees with you.   :rant:(http://www.coolsmilies.net/angry/rant2.gif)(http://www.coolsmilies.net/angry/nono.gif)


(http://www.coolsmilies.net/guns/tank.gif)

I don't understand why Israel started all this, but i cannot and will not believe it is just for 1 soldier.
Most countries would have tried the diplomatic way and in not succeeding, they would have let him die.

You don't go on nuking countries for 1 man, they killed more soldiers of theirs for this and many innocents.

I strongly disagree with what Israel is doing and when i think they have the nuclear power, it gives me the chills.

If your government shares the same mindset as you I'm glad I'm not a soldier in your country then.  I'm sure your troops would LOVE to fight for you knowing that if left behind they are on their own. 

Its also not JUST about the missing troops.  Hezbollah INVADED, CROSSED THE BORDER and killed troops (as well as kidnapping them).  That is an act of war.  This goes far behind "just one troop".  Its about enough is enough already.

Israel did not start this, Hezbollah did. ?They invaded across the border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2 more. ?They have been lobbing rockets into Israel for years now. ?Lebaanon is being bombed because they failed to police Hezbollah as thye agreed to to when Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon. ?Hezbollah and Hamas are cowards and need to be dealt with and talks are not going to get it done. ?Israel has given them land and opportuities to halt their agression and they have not. ?

Fighting back IS Israel's last resort.  They tried talking, they tried concessions and they still got missles and suicide bombers.  Israel is saying to Hezbollah, "Open war? Be careful what you wish for"

Didn't know the whole thing ( didn(t watch tv or have the net for quite a while now).

Still ,although it's bad to breech the agreement, i am sure there would have been other ways around it all, don't you ?

Honestly, no, I don't think there is at this point.  Unfortunately, innocent people are suffering as a result, but hopefully those being bombed and having loved ones kill will say "why is this happening" instead of saying "those who are bombing us will pay the price".  The WHY is very simple, hezbollah.  Put the shoe on the other foot, if Israel attacked Lebanon and then lebanon responded and civilians died, do you think any lebanese people would feel that sympathetic or will would they say "you shouldn't have attacked us in the first place".  The lebanese gov't has done nothing about Hezbollah, the arab world hasn't stopped Syria and iran from funding these radical terror groups.....if ONE good thing comes out of all this, its the hope that this has woken up the middle east and the arab world and they need to start policing their own instead of turning a blind eye and not speaking out when an established state is terrorized and attacked.

Personally, I hope the USA wakes up and realizes we need to find alternate sources of fuel ASAP.  Oh wait, we HAVE alternate sources to fuel, but ....oh nevermind, no need to open that can of worms  ;)

Didn't YOU start this thread talking about how there wouldn't be personal attacks or generalizations?

Just because he doesn't agree with your opinion hes automatically a french hater and therefore MUST love Israel? Lol at that.

And people wonder why these political threads aren't around anymore. People can't handle them.

A good example of WHY people can't handle em is when people justify "saying stupid things" because "other people said stupid things." That has to be the dumbest crap I've ever heard.. if you want threads like this to survive you have to put yourself above insults.

"I did it because he did it first" doesn't justify anything.


And im sorry if it seems like im only picking on you, but your the one who started this thread.. so why not keep it the way you promised?

   -jack

How long do you intend to wax philosophical and self-flaggelate Mr. Introspection? ?Your relativist outlook on the Israeli/Arab conflict doesn't mean you're objective. ?You're just unwilling to face reality.? Your desire to understand and appease does no one any good.

A dysfunctional culture, an extremist-hijacked religion, politically oppressive regimes, and widespread corruption have created radical Islamic terrorism. ?America's involvement in the middle east, including their support for Israel, are simply used as scapegoat reasons.? The United States is absolutely right in backing Israel (that's what you do with allies), and Israel is absolutely right in responding to attacks by terrorist groups - who are supported by terrorist states - with swift and severe action. ?

Hamas and Hezbollah purposely target civilians. ?Israel does not target civilians, but rather the terrorists who hide amongst their own people. ?Considering the almost unending onslaught by the enemies that surround them, Israel has shown nothing but unbelievable restraint over the years. ?While both sides may have a long list of legitimate complaints, only one side actually desires peace. ?The other side wants nothing but death for Israel and the U.S, making little distinction between the two.

Frankly, it's time for Israel, the U.S., and the rest of the world to quit trying to handle the Arab/Muslim world with kid-gloves and break the collective back of radical Islam. ?The people themselves, such as the Palestinians who elected Hamas to lead them, need to be made to see that they will continue to suffer as long as they support the terrorists in their mist. ?

Those in Lebanon are learning this lesson now. ?If things do not change, it will have to be Iran and Syria next.

(By the way, this isn't armchair-toughguyism or sabre-rattling, just the cold, hard truth....)

POLITICS:

Israel Violates Law on U.S. Weapons in Mideast

Thalif Deen

UNITED NATIONS, Jul 17 (IPS) - Israel is in violation of U.S. arms control laws for deploying U.S.-made fighter planes, combat helicopters and missiles to kill civilians and destroy Lebanon's infrastructure in the ongoing six-day devastation of that militarily-weak country.

The death toll, according to published reports, is over 200 people -- mostly civilians -- while the economic losses have been estimated at about 100 million dollars per day.

"Section 4 of the (U.S.) Arms Export Control Act requires that military items transferred to foreign governments by the United States be used solely for internal security and legitimate self-defence," says Stephen Zunes, professor of politics at the University of San Francisco.

"Since Israeli attacks against Lebanon's civilian infrastructure and population centres clearly go beyond legitimate self-defence, the United States is legally obliged to suspend arms transfers to Israel," Zunes told IPS.

Frida Berrigan, a senior research associate with the Arms Trade Resource Centre at the World Policy Institute in New York, is equally outraged at the misuse by Israel of U.S.-supplied weapons.

"As Israel jets bombard locations in Gaza, Haifa and Beirut, killing civilians (including as many as seven Canadians vacationing in Aitaroun), it is worth remembering that U.S. law is clear about how U.S.-origin weapons and military systems ought to be used," Berrigan told IPS.

She pointed out that the U.S. Arms Export Control Act clear states that U.S. origin weapons should not be used for "non-defensive purposes."

"In light of this clear statement, the United States has an opportunity to stave off further bloodshed and suffering by demanding that its weaponry and military aid not be used in attacks against Lebanon and elsewhere, and challenging Israeli assertions that it is using military force defensively," she added.

That would demonstrate the kind of "utmost restraint" that world leaders called for at the G8 Summit of the world's most industrialised nations, which just ended in St. Petersburg, Russia.

The 25-member European Union has said that Israel's military retaliation against Lebanon is "grossly disproportionate" to the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers last week by the Islamic militant group Hezbollah, which is a coalition partner of the U.S.-supported government in Beirut.

Israel has accused both Syria and Iran of providing rockets and missiles to Hezbollah, which has used these weapons to hit mostly civilian targets inside Israel.

Israel's prodigious military power -- currently unleashed on a virtually defenceless Lebanon -- is sourced primarily to the United States.

Armed mostly with state-of-the-art U.S.-supplied fighter planes and combat helicopters, the Israeli military is capable of matching a combination of all or most of the armies in most Middle Eastern countries, including Iran, Syria, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

The air force has continued to devastate Beirut and its suburbs with no resistance in the skies during six days of incessant bombings, causing civilian deaths and infrastructure destruction.

http://www.ipsnews.net/index.asp

I wonder if a major attack on US soil by a terrorist group today would change public opinion for Israel right now the way the madrid bombing made Spain pull out of Iraq.  According to an AOL poll a few days ago, most people in the USA think Israel is acting in the right and its response is appropriate.  But I wonder if a major attack on US soil with the culprits saying it was done b/c of US support for Israel would only make us more determined to destroy the terrorists or if some people would say, "why are we supporting israel anyways!!".  Just food for thought.

I take back what I said about this ending soon.....it sounds like Israel is digging in deep and this could go on for a few more months.  I think they need to stop the bombing though and just concentrate on their ground forces in the south.  Right now most of the world seems to think they are in the right, but if they keep on pounding away that will most likely change.

in other news, what is the deal with the USA's inability to evacuate people promptly....did we learn nothing from Katrina?  And I love how they want to charge people the cost of a ticket for getting them out of Lebanon..... ::) 

From CNN.com

'Please get us out'

The Esseily family was winding up a vacation in Lebanon when the airstrikes began. Nearly a week later, they're still looking for a way to get back to California. "I have two kids [and] a baby, and they're scared. I'm scared," Monika Esseily said. The family also says that despite daily bombings, the U.S. Embassy's only response is "We will call you."

Quick, someone call Michael Brown!! What a joke.

-Jack- and HannaHat,  Nesquick is someone .... special. just read how violent his words are.

This is the same kind of rhetoric that makes you out of touch..

Well coming from a Country with a Real MILITARY.. Israel Shares the same values that the American Military and Brits.. We leave no man behind.. We take are dead with us..

Did you forget when the us spy plane was forced down over china? Yea.. We almost went to war over that... Dont be afraid of Israel.. They're not the ones who commit genocide.. I beleive the holocaust took place in Europe.. What 60 years ago?? The Jewish people have to be extra vigilant.. what will it take for you people to understand this? another 6 million dead jews?

Well said Brody ! We also shouldn't forget that the only religion respected by Adolf Hitler was Islam...
That says a lot.

Again going back in the past to find escuse and compare suffering, is a dangerous path.

Israel has the right to defend itself, but he's doing it the wrong way, morally and strategeryically (:))



Again, i ask you, can you point out a few points that are awful about Israel (policy, community feeling ...) ? i just wanna know how objective people are.

Israel is vioalating international law.
Israel is leading a massacre. on innocent people. hitting the wrong target. an easy target.
Acting as vile as its ennemies, the HZB.

wow ! wow !
guys, really.
you've done it !

1st mention of Hitler ! we've reached it !

Sorry, but it had to be said.
Islam has to be reformed, it's a matter of the utmost urgency. Only Muslims can do it : they need their own Luther...

Where did you read I don't like France? Stop reading what you want to read. That's not what I said. I just don't like the ass kissing massive pro-arabic foreign politicy. I just don't like when my country chooses to trust more the islamists than America, when my country choooses to trust more the Hezbollah and the integrists than occidental values, just for contracts, oil, and commercial business with some Islamists countries. It's a question of policy. Foreign policy. It's a question of moral values.?
Hoppefully it will change with Mr Sarkozy. That's all I hope.?

PS: and and at least, me, I ddon't spit on "la marseillaise", boo "la marseillaise", and run in the street with Algerian flag saying "nique la France, wesh wesh cousin". La racaille dans l'histoire, c'est pas moi. Au contraire c'est ce que je combas. Soyons FIER d'?tre Fran?ais et coupons les ponts avec tout ?a. Sois t'es fier d'?tre Fran?ais, sois tu d?gages. Et moi je suis FIER d'?tre Fran?ais, et pour moi ?tre Fran?ais ce n'est pas ?tre la succursale des ayatollahs - c'est tout le contraire -et en premier lieu c'est renouer fortement avec l'Am?rique. : ok:

Soyons honn?te, personne n'a eu le courage de dire les choses comme elles sont et de s'attaquer ? ce probl?me - Sarkozy lui, le fait.

What? Dude you need to chill. I know plenty of Muslims who are good people and whom I am friends with. Your falling into believing sterotypes. And the Hitler mention is just way out of line.. If you wanna talk about what Hitler admired you could also mention his admiration of America and its industrial might. What does that mean? It doesn't mean shit. Who cares what Hitler admired. It's off topic and foolish.

Radicial Islam is NOT representitive of all Muslims.

As Nesquick said, there's a problem with Islam. British newspaper The Times published an interesting opinion poll among Muslims living in the UK (1.6 million)... 13% consider that the terrorists who killed 56 persons last year in London are 'martyrs'... (13% equal 250'000 persons)
7% consider that terrorist attacks are justified against civilians, 16 % think they are justified against the army.
16% (250'000 persons living right now in the UK) consider there's nothing wrong with being a member of Al-Qaeda.

French newspaper Le Monde published that opinion poll in its July 7 issue too.

This is something that must be taken seriously by politicians. Dark days ahead if nothing is done.


PS: Jack, don't you know that the Mufti (Isalmic authority) of Jerusalem gave his support to Hitler during WW2 ? Does that mean shit ? That Mufti even had Muslim SS under his command ! Please google 'mufti', 'jerusalem', 'hitler'.

I guess I dont know what to think. It's hard to make a good opinion and its hard to try and stay balanced. Ya know? The problem is when people start becoming one sided..

Im sorry if I made you out to look bad bro. My bad.  :peace:

off topic: what about the crowd during the world cup, a few days ago ? all these "muslims" happy and proud of their football team ? uh uh ?
you're seeing evil everywhere. really.

now let's go back on topic, this is no islam issue. this is a world diplomacy and conflict.

these attacks will lead israel nowhere, now they're ?conducting ground operation, alright, instead of bombing the place, they could have sent their "oh so super powerful american funded " special ops. but now, they bombed cities and civilians, and that will lead them nowhere.

Well I have read alot of your anti american BS.. Now Im reading your Anti Israeli BS.. Let me ask you this.. The hundreds of missiles launched into Israel DAILY!!! I MEAN  DAILY!!! are they Intended to hit.. MILITARY TARGETS???? or CIVILIANS???? Lets see... there not guided?? hmm... maybe your critizing the wrong people.. Just answer that question..

1 more question..

If these missiles are being shot from civilian targets?? what does Israel do? Give in? Release the prisoners they want? I mean hell we will be in this same mess the next time they want prisoners released..

Answer these honestly.

You are avoiding the real source of the problem (a political, land occupation, military conflict) and only reading on the surface.

That oh so super powerful American Funded Military Is Far more advanced then the French Military.. You dont seem to realize Israel does not Instigate these attacks against them...

Oh.. 1 more thing.. take guns and bombs and military away from Israel... Countrys like Iran, Syria will invade and lets say they will seize to exist.. Now remove the guns from Hamaas and such. Peace will settle in..

1 - The missiles launched from Lebanon are intend to hit civilians, and that's awful. These missiles come from the HZB, the HZB is a terrorist organisation, therefore they are awful, and their actions are to be condemned. I have never defended HZB.

2 - You start your second questions wrongly. If civilians shoot missiles , they're not civilians anymore, they're stepping into war or terrorism.

there are several actions going on
Israel bombing a specific spot where HZB troops are hiding, launching missiles > OK
Israel bombing Lebanese regular army (who FOUGHT hzb!!) > NOT OK
Israel bombing civilian structure hoping it would harm hzb > VERY WRONG ( that's common sense, again, in a hostage situation, you don't bomb the criminals WITH the hostages just because you can't get a clear shot at them)

all these are legitimates questions to be answered.

But, deeper, they're are more complicated issues, about land occupation, about sharing land, about lack of international diplomacy.

My only problem with Israel, is that as a "democractic" / "civilized" country they shouldnt act like that. Terrorist act like that, not governments.


On this very particular war, today, i'm just saying
1 - israel hitting the wrong enemy the wrong way
Syria / Iran are behind the HZB. That's where the war should be (even if i think no war should be)

If they wanna strike HZB in Lebanon, they shouldnt do it like that. But more in a local / rapid ground strikes.

Just, i dont know, dont be 100% Israel, open your eyes, there are evil in both parts, really.

yeah i know ... i dont have a problem with that.

Good point. Alot of these people seem to forget all those suicide bombings in the 1990's when Israel basically just appeased them. Even negotiated with them, gave them land,etc. It didn't work. Now they're bitching again, and starting their attacks(on an even larger scale). Israel has to respond. To not do so would be admitting defeat.

Wathefuck EVEr...

You seem to think that Military action And war is totally wrong..

What if the u.s. was to say fuck it.. and had not participated in the Normandy Invasion? Hell we were at war with the Japanese.. We could have said the hell with it.. and concentrated with japan.. But no My Grandparents did the job that your Grandparents generation was not able to do.. Sometimes I think you all forget that.. We dont forget the french that helped out with our revolution..

Now Israel has to remove these radicals from there region if there will ever be a chance for peice.. maybe someday Jewish children will be able to go to school with muslim children.. but not until the radicals are removed..

It's probably the 1st time I agree with 75/80% of what you said. As Chirac said, ans sarkozy said and Bush said, and many governements said, the roots of the problem is the hezbollah (HZB). bThey are the problem. Israel has the right to defend itself, and they have to do it. Iran and Syria are behind HZB. After years and years of receiving rockets on the north of israel, and after the 2 soldiers kidnapping, Israel finally decided to do the job and to end-up with the HZB. It's strong, but it's necessary. Every other countries like France, America, G-B etc... would do the same if they had to face to the same situation. It's easy to speak from Paris, but wjhen you leave in Haifa (and I have family in Haifa), it's not easy to live in bounkers because of HZB rockets. Everybody wants it to stop, and the only way to stop it is to do the job: end-up with HZB. If Israel didn't do it, nobody would do it for them. So they do it. Because they have to do it. It's not a pleasure, it cost A LOT of money, it hurts the Israel Economc growth, but the job needs to be done.

Nesquick i hear you

you're pain, israeli pain, MUST NOT be compared to the lebanese pain. Comparing suffering leads nowhere.

Again, Israel has the right to defend itself, but is doing it the wrong way. Simple. HZB is NOT Lebanon. Lebanon is NOT HZB.

You see, Afganistan was a different issue, as the Taliban were really the only force and were ruling that country. Bombing it was awful and lead to massacre, but that was the easiest way.

Here you have a country poisoned by some terrorist organization, placed there by OTHER countries, that is being bombed in a ruthless way.


Again, i would like to hear you guys on what you think is evil about Israel.

IMO.. Israel Is not EVIL.. the only thing they have ever done wrong is appease these lowlifes.. Or maybe allowed foriegn cowards to dictate there politics and military actions

and oh yea.. That Airport that was bombed was the same airport that Israeli intelligence claimed Syrian and Iranian weapons were coming in on..

wow !
well that's pretty much clear now.


yeah, when every agency in the worlds state that it was only civilians, and that weapons were coming on roads.
Israeli Intel had no prupose in saying otherwise .... ?_? SIKE !

So now you have access to American Intelligence? and other states Intelligence?

You still havent answered my question Should the American have participated in the Normandy Invasion...

1- if you have access to the Israel Intel, i guess i have access to the US one.

2 - man, i'm not going back to things like that. world started a long time ago,  we could go way back, how far ? way back .

1 Actually to be honest I do have access to some u.s. intelligence.. seeing that I have a clearance.. and Israel Released that intelligence! where was the french Intel on that.. Im guessing there was none.. they seem to lack that.

2 Well It would prove my point.. if you would just answer it.. I will guess that you would have supported the American help then.. That would make you a Hypocrit.. Your a Hypocrit if you think that it would be ok to use violence then and not now.. Some times I wish my Grandparents would not have made that sacrafice.. I would like to see how the world would have turned out.. I think it would be safe to say that french students would not be protesting and rioting in the streets over the fact that they dont get jobs for life..

man
1 - ok

2 - ok

you rock !

Quite the opposite. I France "cooperate" with muslims, why ban the veil for women? Secondly why do you hate islam so much? And why are you even associating islam with suicide bombers? Your post doesnt make any sense whatsoever. Basically what your saying is you like Nicolas Sarkozy because he'll destroy muslims right? I think its unfair.

well jail isnt the right way then is it? Think about it these Palestinians have been persecuted for years and they're literally going insane. You cant put an insane person in jail or prison, they need help. And israel aint doing that

you dont start a war and kill civilians and ruin inhabitants lives do you? How do you know the suicide bombers were Hezbollah's? No  evidence.

I talked about islamism, not islam. The Lebanese governement didn't want to clean its own country from Hezbollah. so Israel has to do the job itself. No Hezbollah, and everything will be fine. Both for Lebanese and Israelis. When you have a terrorist organisation sending rockets on your cities and kidnapping your soldiers you defend yourself. You don't stay without reaction. Every other countries would do the same as Israel. And they do it.

Here are the facts.

The UN past a resolution for the withdraw of syrian interference in Lebanon and also the dismantling and disarming fo HB

On the exterior it appears syria complied with the resolution, but Lebanon has done NOTHING I REPEAT NOTHING to disarm HB.

It has been well over a year since the resolution was passed. The HB has continuosly perfromed terrorism after the resolution. The HB has been killing innocent people, soldiers and now have kid napped a few soldiers.

It seems to me Isreal is going to enforce the resolution becuase Lebanon is not cappable by themselves.

The UN has had a force on the border between the 2 borders and has no effect on stoping HB.

My opinions

Isreal is targeting the HB and in a few incidents they have bombed some lebanon army positions that appear to have assisted the HB over the last few days.  There are a few HB sympathizers in the lebanon army that are relizing that if they help the HB they will be treated the same.

I say let Isreal get rid of HB in Lebanon.

The world including Isreal will help Lebanon rebuild , and will also make them an accepted govermant in the world without HB involvement so this in turn will help the Lebanon people.

Yes some innocent people are going to die. Sad but it wil happen, but I do not think Isreal is targeting innocent people unlike HB who have all along targeted innocent people.

When HB is gone from Lebanon Isreal and Lebanon will no longer have major issues. Yes they will always have some problems becuase of extremist.

Isreal is doing the right thing, and have been doing the right thing for some time now.

Isreal does not screw around period. Somebody screws with them they screw with them harder. I like that idea personally.

yeah i've realized that, Israel seems to please some of ours lowest animal instinct, our lust for violence and power.
Maybe they're are, thru the power thay have on WEAK countries, fullfilling some people's dream of power and authoritah (cartman's voice)

but again who did Israel fought with lately :

Palestine
Lebanon

man ! these are some powerful countries !

As much as you would HZB to be gone, it won't that way. One thing you should have learnt from history, you don't deal with terrorism on an operwarfare.

just look at Iraq, terrorism has grown even more ! there are attacks everyday.
Look at madrid, and london

guys, you're all way wrong, and you're blind acceptance of Israel policy is revolting (i have not read one SINGLE complain about this country ! ) you all act like you were under the bombs in Haifa, when you're not.

Nesquick is from Israel (i guess?) and hates muslim, at least his views are biased because of emotional parameters, but the rest of you ... i don't get it. things are BLACK and WHITE.

i'm sorry. but very american. i don't say that to criticize, but this black/white opinion of the world is very american.


PEACE
and unlike some of you, i hope the strikes on Lebanon stop soon.

Did you know the veil was not common practice among muslim women a hundred years ago?

Yes many times things are Black and White.. And that easy to see.. But seeing that you are from France.. And you are very ANTI AMERICAN.. ugh ugh JEALOUSY.. I hope paris.. never.. gets hit.. I would hate for the americans.. to have to respond.. to that because of your countrys incopetence.

ps. just cause your FRENCH.. doesnt mean your shit dont stink..

I guess you never heard of the seven day war.

Yea american call it what you like. There are hundreds of stereotypes that fit alot of coutries, but I will not even start that childish route.

So you tell me what has isreal done wrong in this situation. No I have no problem with isreal defending itself.

Make a damn list of what they have done wrong.

Show us the list.

Hmm.. lets see.. just back in 67 they were invaded by all there neighbors and were able to defeat them bad.. Infact the KICKED there asses.. what did your country do just 60 years ago.. OH thats right your country rolled over..

Where did you read that? stop watching Dieudonne DVD, he just brainwashed your head.
and I don't hate muslims, I hate islamists and racailles. But I know you love them. That's why you don't understand anything.

Oh and one other thing I hope Isreal continues to keep bombing HB.

you took the words right out of my mouth


You seem to really hate jews? are you a muslim WHATTHEFUCK EVER?

1) Yes he hates the jews. His main influence is a guy called "Dieudonne". A french antisemit who was judged and condamned for his anti-jews declaration and racial hatred. Dieudonne is the French? Louis Farrakhan. Dieudonne is his model.
2) Yes he is muslim. But that's not because he is a muslim that he hates the jews, it's because he is ignorant.

Ahh.. Makes sense now... Also makes sense on why hes anti american... other then his jealousy.. I find it hard to beleive that hes a moderate..

You can see who is Dieudonne in this article: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=6b500b60-a4b8-4d27-9ca8-b8472b5a7ff1&k=27897

extract: "He (Dieudonne) has posted comments on his Web site sympathetic to Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and recently accepted an invitation to visit Iran. "In my opinion, it is less serious to go to Iran than to visit Israel, a country run by extremists, dangerous people, who are pointing 52 nuclear warheads at sheep pens and people who are unarmed," he told the Montreal weekly Voir this month. "I believe Iran has a legitimate position."

Now you know where "Whatever I hate Israel and the jews bugging" picks up his inspiration and his political views.
Dieudonn? is his model. What-EVER is the HTGH Dieudonn?.

Well This site is for watever... http://www.nowarforisrael.com/ Align yourself with these people.. they can probably set you up with your grenade belt..

WHAT THE FUCK !!!!
i am muslim now .?
i hate jews now ?

This is has gone far enough, i will personnaly talk to jarmo about this and hope you get banned, asshole

i am a fuckin atheist, and niether my mom or dad is muslim, you stupid cunt
i have nothing against jews homefuck, next time, shut your stupid mouth instead of talking about people.


you called me : muslim, ignorant and stupid. wrong, wrong, wrong.

brody, FYI, my girlfriend, 3 years, is american, and i'm sure i've fucked more american girls than you will ever do. ?i'll give a you call back when i'll have the nationality, you fat looser.

fuck you all, i'm out.

Wow.. really doubt that.. but ok.. if you say so.. Im neither fat.. may be a loser.. but no not fat.. ps.. you probably got this thread locked.. just cause your girlfriend is an american does not mean that your not anti american.. Its quite obvious in the way that you talk..  Im truly happy that you have fucked lots of fat american girls.. please tell your girlfriend about slimfast!

?

From the rules i have read you have been in the wrong quiet a few times in this thread, so while your getting him banned get yourself also banned.

Oh and one other thing GOOD RIDANCE

Fine

- Speaking about Jarmo, I think he took the right decision when he decided to stop the political discussions on this website. With a guy like you, it just goes nowhere. Read the topic, plenty of people are against your extremist political point of views.
- Speaking about Will, I think he took the right decision when he closed your 1st topic about that. Unfortunately you decided to persist. I won't let you insult my familly in Israel and say that I am "biaised" because you don't like Israel.

read the topic - You are alone man. You are alone on this one.

Wow you two pissed him off huh? funny that he's the one that started this thread and vowed not to turn it politcal

Check out this song if you get a chance. pretty appropriate IMO :peace:

Why am I reading about Bumblefoot's bad night in the GnR section....

This is much better... :o

Indeed it is!

man, get lost ...

I would have to say your pretty alone.. dont get angry and fuck another fat american!

I can't say I didn't see it coming...