Here Today... Gone To Hell!

My question is Why Do you believe what you believe in? Why are you pagan? WHY are you Christian or Jew or Muslim?

I dont intend to offend but to understand. Is there anything about your religion that specifically strikes you? Anything you question?

I believe in what i believe because there was a white lady standing in my room when i was little .

Well... That makes sense.

Yeah - the nurse :confused:

At the mental institution...




j/k of course  ;)

religion? whats the point? god? where is this deity? what has this "thing" ever done for the world? watching on while millions die every year...i am an athiest...in time the universe will be fully described by science, no religion needed

i don't believe a loving god would create this world. thats how i came to my basic belief structure.

and in reference to the original post, especially the bit about what do you question; everything. and those of you who follow other religions should do the exact same. if your god truelly exists then he put you here to question everything about your faith.

interesting POV...the old testament god is pretty vengeful and tough on his creations, while the new testament is a kindler, gentler god, very forgiving etc...

I believe in the god/religion I believe in because of how I feel every time I pray, and how I feel everytime I walk down the street.

hanna, if i was a christian i'd pretty much ignore the old testament. jesus said "i came not to destroy the law but to fulfill", theres some pretty silly stuff (leviticus esp.) in the old one.

my point was that you said "a loving god" and the old testament god's voice/POV is far from loving...hes a pretty pisssed off guy actually and he takes a great interest in whats going on.  Jesus rules the new testament and when God is throwing his 2 cents in hes loving and forgiving.

I find the change in God personality pretty interesting.

This thread is just gonna be a Christan vs. Non Believers War. I hate threads like this.

Im a polygmist :P

aaah, now i get you. yes, there's a lot more hell and damnation in the first one. there are parts in the new testament where it does seem ridiculously easy to get in to heaven in comparison.

1) white lady was shiny
2) under hypnosis, regression, catharsis, therapy of the tunnel, it came to be 100% true as it did traumatize and scare me
3) fuck off

im catholic, and i believe in what i believe because not only did my family raise me catholic, but i taught myself, i went to church and ccd and read literature so i could make up my own mind what to believe. i am not a strict catholic, im only as strict as i want to be.

I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster..........

(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9655/flying9jw.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

People create their gods to suit what they need from their leader.  In the early days, people wanted an angry warlike god because they were constantly battling in chaotic societies.  They needed a strong, powerful leader who was willing to be angry and warlike to get what he wanted/needed-- hence the vengeful God of the Old Testament.  As time went on, societies developed further and had less of a need for war, but more of a need for diplomacy-- hence the loving, forgiving God of the New Testament.  "And man created God in his image" -- Jethro Tull, Aqualung.

As for me, I'm a Buddhist atheist.  I am an atheist because simply, I don't believe there is any way there is some big guy watching every move of every living thing on a planet that basically is the size of a pea (if a god were the size of an average human).  I do not believe in creationism, I believe that everything developed by chance.  The universe is 5-6 billion years old (or million... I forgot a lot from 9th grade history).  That's a hell of a lot of time for a bunch of chance occurances to happen several times over.  Eventually, these chance occurances would produce animalia.  It's like taking 1,000 dice and rolling them all at once.  What are the odds on all of them coming up as 4's?  It's extremely unlikely, but if you kept rolling those dice over 5-6 billion (or million) years, it would happen at some point.

As for Buddhism, it just makes the most sense to me out of any religion.  It is the only major organized religion with no required belief in a god and no afterlife.  There is no soul, because a soul is eternal.  Nothing is eternal-- all material things are impermanent.  Impermanence of objects is what causes stress.  It focuses on the individual.  By losing focus on material matters your stress will be greatly decreased.  It makes more sense to me than any other religion out there.

So many religions say you have to accept their god to gain salvation and/or a permanent existance.  Only by removing this idea of permanence, almost to a point of simple existentialism, one can truly be free.

SLC, your god has SOME balls!  :hihi: And yes, that would be god without capital. As far as I'm concerned, if he exists, he's the biggest asshole I never met. Got some old anger issues with the dude.  :rant:

I do consider myself to be a Christian - and I think the Bible makes a lot of sense - if its message takes priority over the exact wording. I believe what a i believe because i can reconclie it with a scientific world and because it has an inherant logic to it

If things are assesed from a metaphorical point of view it begins to become clear - if everyone behaves to one another they will go to a wonderful place - surely heaven becomes a metaphor for the better world simply behaving while we are alive would create? Surely Hell is less a metaphysical domain than a vision of a world gone bad.

I think God and the devil are just metaphors for good and evil - manifestations of ideas to better convey them, surely god is not some being but the embodiment of all that is good within ourselves and the world

People have to understand this thing was written for illiterate peasants with no concept of life even outside their village - people get so hung up on little details the bigger picture is missed

If you wanted to explain the big bang you wouldn't tell them about protons and hydrocarbons would you? The Earth did process through stages - molten ball - one celled beings - etc - substitute 6 days for 6 billion years (or whatever the figure) and you have something that begins to ring true

Strip away the translation errors etc and go straight to the underlying message - love your neighbour etc and it falls into place. Whether Jesus was the son of god and could perform miracles or just a damn fine public speaker is pretty much irrelevant - its the message he delivered that counts

People take it all so seriously - its just a text to provide guidance and hope -there is no literal afterlife: when you die you rot in the ground - but if you've been good you have permenantly benefitted the world and thus pass into immortality that way. People try and turn ideas into places and bring rules to abstract concepts - its a shame a message of love and understanding gets perverted everyday

Take the supernatural way and leave the message and you u have what i believe - i dont believe in ghosts and water into wine but i do believe in the message the supernatural elements were added in to spice up

I believe in Islam because everything i've read makes sense from any interpretations. Of course there are debates about some things such as "was Adn (Eden) in paradise or was it of the earth?" but they can be worked around easily if you just give a lot of thought to it because you have to read the words VERY carefully. I interpret the Qur'aan both metaphorically and literally and to be honest they both make as much sense as each other. And i do know Allah exists but this life is a test from Allah. Indeed he knows the outcome of our lives. (Allah isnt a he or a she but he is used because its impolite in english to say it. In eastern languages such as arabic or urdu there is a polite gender term for god). However, he may let us live because you can't be convicted of a crime you haven't yet committed or been involved in committing.Allah knows best.

I don't understand why you guys think Allah is unmerciful and most unkind when in fact, all Allah wants is for us to do is to ask for forgiveness and ask him in times of great need and thank him in good times. He wants to see how lazy we are in praising him and asking him. I mean, its great islam is because you get rewards for doing compulsory things such as praying five times a day, even though Allah has bestowed this law upon us it's still rewarding. Every good deed is equivalent to 10 good deeds yet 1 negative deed is equal to 1. The reason why all these cruel people are alive it to see for them to be tested, to see if they'll come to the correct path of islam and for the sufferers to be tested to have strong belief in Allah. Life is one big test and never think for one moment that the battle is over because it isn't and Allah has mentioned in the glorious qur'aan in various verses i'll try to find, that never think for a moment the test is over because it's never over and the tests will come in various forms.

Faith!
Catholic, that's the way I was raised.
Btw, your question does not offend me in the least!

I havnt seen one response on here that says 'Axl is God' and that surprises me.

Which is good, because hes not.

Axl is god

j/k

Im atheist. I think ALL religions are a heaping load of shit. In the bible, when is the last time you met an arab named john?

I think its brainwashing, especially the Jehova's Witnesses.

just my opinion

I just try to be a good person is all.  I live by my own morals and values.  Agnosticism rocks.

I'm not religious either...born roman catholic though...

If any religion I prolly believe in the pagan religions the most...you know those snakes and rats that St. Patrick drove out of Ireland.

but I'm hardly a devout worshipper of anything :no:

The Arabic equivalent of John is Yahya

the cat?

Sorry, strange mood. Keep talking.

"I worship the sun but I pray to Joe Pesci"

a few quotes for  you christians..................... :hihi:


    *

      "Fundamentalist Christianity. Fascinating. These people actually believe the world is 12 thousand years old. Swear to God! Based on what? I asked them. 'Well, we looked at all the people in the Bible, and we added them up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages ? 12 thousand years.' Well, how fucking scientific! Okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble there. That's good.

      You believe the world's 12 thousand years old? 'That's right.' Okay, I got one word to ask you. A one word question. Ready? 'Uh-uh.' Dinosaurs.

      You know, the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, and they existed in that time ... you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point. 'And lo, Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus ... with a splinter in his paw. And O, the disciples did run a-shrieking: "What a big fucking lizard, Lord!" But Jesus was unafraid, and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw, and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O, so many years, inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And O, Scotland did praise the Lord: "Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord."'"


"A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back, he ever wants to see a fucking cross?



Bill Hicks


the bible............what a load of shit...................(a quote from me... : ok: : ok: : ok:  )

Heh heh.... good old Bill.

'Ever notice how creationists look really unevolved?' - They say 'I believe God created me in one day' 'Well, looks like he rushed it'!!

RIP Mr Hicks

For all you know it could have been one day literally. But the words used to describe creation of the world and things in qur'aan is "Yawm" (arabic for day). This word is used in the metaphorical sense of day as well. Anyway someone posted on another thread that there was a skeleton of an "advanced human" i think the poster was Jessica aka Madmoiselle or someone. Anyway humans could have really MUTATED not EVOLVED within their own genus. The qur'aan doesnt tell you every detail about every messenger of every creation simply because Allah obviously didnt think it necessary for us to know as such. but obviously allah can answer that one better. Torah says Adam (peace with him) was 913 (i think) years old and hadith tell he was about 1000. However, the torah could be referring to time on earth in lunar years. The length of days differed in Adn (Eden) than it did on earth. On the day of Judgement one day will=50000 days (if i remeber correctly) and also there are solar years and lunar years that vary in length. Humans have really changed in size and strength. If you see the swords of the era of prophet muhammad (peace and blessing of allah be with him) they were bloody huge and heavy and i cant think of a man who would be able to lift it. They are the size of a 2-3 seater couch and 2-3cm thick. And one sword of Khalid bin Al-Waleed has diamond encrusted in them. So humans have changed and evidence suggests they were way bigger, musclier and stronger than humans today. Also they cant have been fat because they didnt have a chance of eating unhealthy mcdonalds and what not. i can write an essay

 Protestantic christian.
could have been a buddhist though.


i do not like when religion becomes too ortodox.

and i make fun of it whenever i can.

why do you make a distinction between evolution and mutations over time?

anyway... your topic is about being religious, not arguing about evolution.  I'm happy for you that someone's sword had diamonds on it, but that wont change my mind about being religious.   I like to believe in the concept of a benevolent God because it is psychologically comforting to me.  However, I dont let that interfere with me asking questions and trying to find answers about the world. 

Thats easily the stupidest thing i've ever read

God knows how things will work out before u've even been created - then punishes you for a ''crime'' you had no possibility of avoiding

If you were destined to comit that crime - programmed from the outset to do it - then a murder has no moral responsibility for there crime, its after all not there fault - they were effectively placed on earth to do that one deed

U really believe that? R u really that stupid?

U give Allah less credit than those of other religions!

And other deeds, to be fair. :P

its kinda hard no to be offended when you start your post by caling us pagan... ::)


and now to adress the rest of the "philosphers" here. why are you even trying to explain why you chose to believe what you believe in?!


it's like explaining to a blind person, the diference among colors,
or explaining to a deaf person the concept of music,...



I claim to be a Catholic, but actually, I'm an agnostic who's beliefes happen to be similar to the of the Catholic religion.

Im christian catholic and I live my life the best I can and the best for everyone else, if someone slaps me well dont think I will turn the other cheek I'll fucking kill you!  :rant:
Anyway I think people looks too much into these stuff, just live your life the best you can weather you believe in something or not.
Dont start asking foolish question about if God created this and stuff thats just a wasted of time, just live man.  :beer:

I think you're ignorant because of Al-Lauh and Al-Mahfuz contains every man woman and living things destinyl all preordained.

EDIT: To be honest i see you give allah less credit. He's the "All Knower" of everything, that's one of the 99 names of allah

Let's just agree to disagree okay?  ::) Pft.

attempt to understand Clintron's post about 12000 years. The question i forgot to ask before i admittedly go off on a tangent was "What was the original word used for year?"

well no it isnt because one of the religions logically is correct. Some people somewhere have the right religion. Obviously i'll say islam because I know it's correct. And if you don;t study your religion you'll deviate from it and give a terrible image to your religious community. Look at us muslims, we have the worst rep. because we arent united. Also a lot of people dont know of their religions and dont follow them well like the headscarfs banned in Turkey, an originally islamic country and Hindu scriptures such as the Rigveda and Vedas talk of eating meat being a blessing

Well you might be right, i dont intend to change you religion but the basis of all this is not who's right but to live in armony

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound right now?? "Logically" one of the religions must be correct!? Who's logic?? Where?? :rofl:
Why are you so sure that your religion is correct?? It it because you read it in a book, or because you were brought up to believe it?
Also, if you are indeed correct, why do you feel that would make all other religions incorrect?

Nobody on Earth knows the true answer to this question, which is why this thread is so damn stupid.? I get angry when people argue over which religion is "correct" because what some people fail to realise is that all religions (or most religions) are essentially the same jist.? YES, you all believe in God.? YES, you are taught to be good people.? So why on Earth do religious people fight amoungst themselves??? Do they think that if they shout that theirs is the true faith the loudest that will make it so??? I just can't understand that attitude. :no:

Personally I have a lot of time for the idea of a God but I refuse to take religion literally.? I wanna make the most of my life and figure it out for myself instead of having an institution hand me out ready-made answers that may or may not be true.? Don't count on the idea of an afterlife - just make sure you use your time in the real world wisely.

This thread isnt for arguing which religion is best its so i can understand why some people follow what they do. And i believe life on earth is all play anyway. If one religion is right, other must be wrong because why on earth would god want all these divisions in religion and the people with the same beliefs arguing with each other. Religious people fight over which religion is correct because there's only one religion that's correct. Amazingly it's general logic that one religion is correct. It cant all be man made.

Why can't religions be man made?

I think you take religious texts way too literally - in fact I think that's the problem a lot of people have these days.? Because you're basing all your life decisions on one book and you believe uncondtionally in what it has to say you seem to have lost your perspective.? God did not tell religious people to argue with each other, they took it upon themselves to do that.? If, following your logic, the Christian faith turns out to be "correct" - do you really think a kindhearted Muslim would not make it into heaven because he was born into the wrong faith?? :-\

I think Izzy was spot on earlier when he talked about focusing on the message the religion has to offer instead of taking every word of the Bible literally.? "People get so hung up on little details that the bigger picture is missed" - that is absolutely right.?

Arguing over which is the true faith just causes hate.? Lots and lots of hate.? That's not meant to be the purpose of religion, in fact it's supposed to have the exact opposite effect.? Forget about which religion is correct - it's an argument that cannot possibly be resolved.? Also, i'll be interested to see your response to Skeba's question because it was good one. : ok:

Well what are we supposed to believe if everything is lying to us? I'm not saying we have to believe. Wth is too literally supposed to mean? Thirdly if say christianity was right of the lutheran type, for arguments sake, then muslim wouldnt go into heaven as wouldnt a catholic. The point is you have to study every religious text before you make lame arguments like a lot of people do. this thread is for understanding something. Is there something in people's religions that makes sense that islam hasnt got is what i'm trying to pick. equally, if i was a catholic is there something in catholicism thats not in any religion thats what i try and find

ughh I think your speaking to someone who most likely doesnt beleive in allah! and I personally do not beleive in allah! so maybe your the ignorant one?

If your religion is obviously the correct religion and all of us are doomed! Why would allah! and alot of the Islamic Leaders find it fit! such as the ayatollah to call a Jihad and basicly send thousands to the deaths.. also why don't you hear leaders of modern Christian Religions calling for holy wars against the Islam? no offense intended jmo! your religion has been Hijacked by extremist to gain power..

once again i do not claim that my religion is the correct religion! pegan!

I was born into Catholicism. But after thinking extensively about it myself I have come to the desicion that I don't believe in any particular religious order. I believe that each religion and it's text was designed, by the same God, to cater to their own particular culture and way of life, i.e Buddhism in areas such as China etc. I really don't think that God intends for us to be fighting over how he said things he just wants us to embrace what he said and to embrace it in our own way and get on with our lives.

Sorry dude but that just doesn't make sense.? People are generally born into religions so why on Earth would a God punish a Muslim like you for being loyal to his family and following the teachings of a religious text?? When I said you're taking it too literally I meant you're getting caught up in the finer details and not taking a step back to look at the big picture.? Most religions are essentially the same.? They all teach you to be a good person, they say be loyal to your family, they talk about prophets and miracles, they BELIEVE IN GOD!? These are the important things - as far as i'm concerned you're either athiest, agnostic or you believe in God.? If you're a kind person is should not matter which religion you've chosen.? ?(EDIT - Actually screw what I said and just listen to Jamie.? She said it best!)

Have you studied every religious text?? I doubt it.? You are clearly biased because you've been raised as a Muslim, hence why you "know it's correct" (although seriously - you don't).? I do see why you started this thread and I think it's good that you're curious about other religions.? It's good to get a wider perspective.? I'll admit that I haven't read through any religious texts but I wouldn't say that makes my arguments entirely lame.? I'm neutral in this argument whereas you clearly are not.

Also, you never answered Skeba's question. : ok:

I agree with you!

i like old greek gods and godess

they're cool
i'm making it my religion

again, Epicure proved 2400 years ago that God, the way most organized religions picture it,  cannot exist. period. exclamation point.

Now I really dont know what you're talking about.

Btw i'm trying to remember the quran off by heart. once done, i'll memorise the Torah in its original language not the translation. A lot of my info comes from scholar dr. Zakir Naik who has memorised every single scripture literally in their original tongue.


That's a dumb post. I can't see that you're talking about my religion but about the followers. Ignore the followers and observe what the actual religions says. There is a hadith;

Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) said "my generations the best generation, then the generation after then the generation after."

So technically dont follow muslims follow our laws.

A lot of muslims nowadays are uneducated.

If my post is dumb then all the garbage you are spewing is dumb! Sorry your laws don't apply! So I disagree with your religion greatly! It has changed drasticly in the past 60 years! Alot of leaders have changed the interpretation of it! Muslim women were among the first to own land, buisnesses and so on! now where are they? they hide behind vails and are to be seen not heard!

sakib,

The problem of evil (or theodicy) in general, and the logical and evidential arguments from evil in particular contest the existence of a god who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent by arguing that such a god would not permit the existence of perceivable evil or suffering, which can easily be shown to exist. Already Epicure pointed out the contradiction, stating that if an omnipotent God existed, the evil in the world should be impossible. As there is evil in the world, the god must either not be omnipotent or he must not be omnibenevolent. If he is not omnipotent, he is not God; if he is not omnibenevolent, he is not God the Allmercyful, but an evil creature. Similar arguments have been performed by Schopenhauer.

Well thanks for the sentiment and all, but I'm not a she!!

Interesting.? I did think this might happen as I was typing it but thought 'nah, its blatenty a she' which turned out to be a really bad call.? There's even a chance i've made the same mistake with you already on this board.? Although it's mostly my fault - you do have a very girly name.


But anyways i'm sorry dude.? Really fucking sorry. :-[

Nah it's cool man, don't worry about it. I know it's a girl's name too but it's short for James. It's grand anyways

Well no not really, of course there would be evil.


Wrong again! Religion hasnt changed at all but the people who are under that religion have changed. Get it right!
Which thikko made u think women are hiding behind vails? What are you talking about? You make no sense. And rather than attack religion (which is what you aint doing) you;re attacking the followers. Attack us all you want you're getting nowhere. And what "laws" are you chatting on about? I attack or Ummah myself because i'm not impressed the way islam has been followed over the last century. Read the Quran and you might actually get some idea rather than make stuff up. These leaders you speak of have just "twisted" the translation to favour themselves. and that iswhat i call CORRUPTION. If the twisted meaning doesnt fit in with the rest of the quran or principles in hadith then you know its wrong.

Also, you never answered Skeba's question. : ok:

which is....

What ever happened to god wanting to test us by temptation of evil deeds?

ps :

i have loads of women wearing tchadors in my area and i have noticed that under them, since they don't get exposed to the sun, they have the most beautiful skins and hairs. : ok:

My question was the only post I've made in this thread.

"How do you know that all religions can't be man made?"

Or not to bee seen, but heard? Maybe both, eh

Muslim women are BOSSES at home, trust me.

The veil was created to protect women against male desire from puberty onwards.

When you take into account the number of women who are raped in our western society, maybe not showing as much flesh isn't a bad idea.

Let's just kill all women, then nobody can rape them.  ::)

Have you compared the numbers of raped women in different socities?

The figures exist

there are less rapes in muslim countries.

Factual.

I am not pro or against anything, i am just stating.

I also know that almost all muslim wives wear very normal clothes inside their homes, including sexy clothes.

They just cover up to go out.

They are usually not little creatures who need protection inside, they are matriarchal societies, like in italy or even china. They are the boss inside the house, usually, the man's mother being THE boss. Same in India.

Ok Well what is a religion with out its followers? Nothing! And If I making up that Muslim women were among the first women to share near equal rights with men then you obviously no nothing about world history! So how do you know that your translation is not twisted? I do remember how upset you got over a little depiction of allah in the newspaper! you lashed out wishing death for the publisher! so you sound just as twisted to me!

Huh?

Logically somewhere along the line there must be an accurate religion. Some follow mankind desires but there's some that dont. You gotta hunt


Yes indeed. Women in islam must be carefully looked after because they have troubles men dont have such as menstrual cycles where hormones are left, right and center. That's one of the reasons probably Prophethood wasnt passed onto a woman because she'll have too much to deal with.

Just for the record as Jess has suggested, the wife and husband must get on with eachother and must fulfill each other desires be it sexual or not, providing it aint illegal.

Thats where you are wrong.. imho.. Women are more stable then men! Its just ignorant people that say things like you have said..

EDIT* Have you ever had a girlfriend? How many women or girls as friends do you have? Im guessing very few with you ignorant veiws that women need to be watched over? As women are becoming more independent we are finding that they tend to accell better then men in the math and sciences..

and many other things.. Look how many women hold political office and there menstrual cycles don't get in the way! Look how women now have an active role in militarys!

Brody again you misunderstand everything. The husband suports wife in the marriage and the wife supports husband. As for women in the military it's difficult for them to get married because there job is sometimes always in the way. I never said women are more stable than men or men more stable than women, all i said was sometimes things like having children and stuff can be a very stressful thing for a women and if not supported well by husband can lead to catastrophic dents in her life.

And again i apologised for my anger so i'm not so sick and twisted as you may presume about the cartoons. And i have many female friends + acquaintencies (2 i am very close to), four sisters, a mother.

By the way do you know how difficult Prophethood is? No. If you read in details about the perils both physical and mental its very difficult and select few were chosen to deliver the message.

I never said anything about women being incapable of high leadership. What ever happened to the Muslim Queens.

If you actually read my post i said "probably" (to do with the bit about prophethood to men) which means maybe, there's no definite reason but allah knows best. Think about it logically, in those times, there were grand families i mean really big.

As an example, lets say for the sake of argument about 1400 years ago a war was taking place. A woman may have had up to 7 young children to attend to. The children are generally naturally closer to the mothers (i'm talking very young children here and maybe kids in general) so as a man's role to protect the family, it's easier for men to go to war than women. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WOMEN CANT FIGHT IN WAR HOWEVER! I HAVE READ ACCOUNTS IN ISLAMIC BATTLES WHERE THERE WERE WOMEN IN WAR!! Just a question for thought but how come I've never seen a child say "father" before "mother?" Every child i know says "mama" or woteva first. Thats a different issue, sorry.?

As for leaders in women, Look at Benazir Bhutto or Queen Saba (Sheba). Islam isnt as sexist as you like to propogate Brody unfortunately for you.

Lastly you ask "What is a religion without its followers?" A religion doesnt need followers. A religion is a religion. Again this foolish questioning about followers being the religion. Indeed they give the image of the religion HOWEVER the real religion is in the scriptures and the accounts.

EDIT: FOR example, Hindus many believe that killing animals for food is wrong. HOWEVER sciptures such as the Rigveda and Vedas clearly encourage giving meat for food as gift and Hindu scholars agree idol worshipping is wrong.  AND THIS IS ALL IN THEIR SCRIPTURE.

According to who's logic? And I'm not sure what the last 2 sentences mean.

I mean, if a person believes in evolution for example, it's pretty logical for him/her to think that somewhere along the line, the natural events (thunderstorms and such) became something that had a greater force behind them. A god, or in some 'religions' (can't really call them all that organized when pepole didn't propably even have an all that developed language), gods. It seemed very logical, that he/she/they were in control of the weather, and if they control the weather they could propably control everything. If they control everything, they also control the destiny of the people. So people were better off keeping those gods satisfied.

And this is just of the top of my head, so don't take the example literally, but still. What is the logic that there has to be 1 right religion if a person believes in evoltion. And remember, believing in evolution doesn't mean a person can't be religious.

I believe in God because I feel he is trustworthy and I believe he's a higher being that's behind the power of fate. And this is coming from my own opinion, not by what my family tries to ram down my throat. I believe he planned my life the way it is so I just go with how it is and learn how to think of it in a good way.

How does one define a man-made religion from one that isn't?

Christianity is man-made-- it was started by human followers of Jesus, his disciples, with alleged messages from God mixed in.

Buddhism is man-made-- the Buddha was simply a prince who gained a lot of followers.

Islam is man-made-- as far as I know, the prophet Mohammad was a man who supposedly received a message from Allah.

Judaism-- man-made.  A couple people claim to receive messages from God and go from there.

The only one I can think of that wasn't really man-made was Hinduism, and only because no one really knows how it started, other than that it may have been brought in by Aryan settlers of India around 4000-3500 BC.

Speaking of Hinduism, nothing in Hinduism says not to kill animals, and as far as I know, few Hindus believe that.  If you go to an Indian restaurant, many dishes will have lamb, goat, or chicken.  The only "edible" animal that is protected is the cow.  You will never see beef (and rarely pork) dishes eaten in Indian food.

It is more often that one will find vegetarians in Buddhism than in Hinduism.  Buddhist laws regarding not eating meat are highly open to interpretation.  Some equate killing with suffering, some say the two are different.  The main interpretation I've heard is that killing is not necessarily suffering, but also one should not "want" to eat meat.  Do not desire anything, do not crave anything, do not go out of your way to do something you really want.  So eating meat is alright, but you should not desire it (or anything else for that matter) too heavily.  Desiring something and having that desire unfulfilled is the main cause of stress and suffering in life.  Removing stress and suffering is the main goal.

You can't call Islam man-made because you said Muhammad (peace be with him) got a revelation from allah. I can understand from an athiest point of view or a non muslim view why you think that because you dont believe muhammad (peace be with him) was allah's messenger.

Christianity in some bibles clearly states it was a book inspired by god and clearly the book shows its mans words. Majority of christianity from what ive heard follows st. Paul a man.

Taurat -(torah) originally was a revelation from Allah but apparently its changed and become man made.

Hinduism and buddhism i dont know too much but hopefully soon i'll learn of them in more detail.

What catches me on Islam is that many scriptures of religion tend to get lost or modified. The quran hasnt been modified as there's no proof or evidence to suggest it. The original chapters are in museum in turkey and from that era. So if in islam allah has decreed this is the final testament and wont change one bit, the fact islam claims the quran is from allah makes one think "how?" and so i've read the quran and it makes perfect sense from translations i have read. I read 3 translations from; Muhammad muhsin khan and muhammad hilali, Abdullah yusuf Ali and Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall to check things.

I believe some people can " hear".

Outside of religion.

Moses heard, mahomet, JPII probably did.

Not all are prophets, past or present.

It's a shame messages get mixed up.

Sexist garbage............

i really dont get religion.

how can people get into it when theres no proof AT ALL.

i mean imagine if i wrote a book saying i was a magic god who tells people to behave. got it published, are people likely to believe that, no.

so whats the difference with these various religious books?

religion annoys me, the bible anyway is very contradictory and like i dont get how god used to go killing people that didnt believe in him, then he tells people not to kill  ??? (i think i read that somewhere anyway)

islamic annoys me too, how its interperated SO WRONG, obviously causing the problems we have today.

it just doesnt make sense.

no man will ever follow a cult unless he has faith and all who have faith don't always follow a cult.

Faith is personal.

It isn't rational.

remember, you are talkin to the audience who has been waiting for an album for 10 years.
if there's a comunity out there that has faith for no reason, than it's us.



nope, because you are a noob.
but the law/constitution of a country is based on the same thing. you believe/are afraid of somethin that doesnt egzist.





that's a shallow way at lookin at things



Mr. Bush is causing the problems we have today.
islam has been doing the same things it has been doing for 1400 years, and nobody noticed it till now.

You think...

Allah's messenger or not, Muhammad was still-- when all rhetoric is put aside-- a human.  Just as Jesus could be considered a messenger of god (or even part god by some sects), but he was still a human.  Religions are all man-made.  Spirituality is god-given.

As for saying the torah was god-sent but then changed over the years to become man-made, how does one know this hasn't happened in EVERY religion?  Books can be changed, translations can have errors, pieces can be removed to fit the views of people, and they can go uncorrected for years until they are considered to be part of the real holy book of the religion.  There are no infallible religious books, just as there are no completely infallible religions.

No religions is more right than another.  Why?  Because no one truly knows the will of god, or even if there is a god.  Honestly, I think that if there's a god, he likes all those to follow him.  Hell, he would even like those who don't follow him.  Why?  Because it makes him think he did something right with the whole "free will" thing he gave people.  Proves they're using the huge complex brains he designed for us.

I still think existance was all a chance occurance over the span of 13 billion years.  Imagine if the entire history of the universe were put into the span of one year with the Big Bang being on January 1.  The Milky Way would have formed in March.  The sun and planets would have formed in July or August.  Single celled life appears in September.  Complex beings appear on december 15.  Human life would not appear until December 31 at 11:54 pm.  Civilizations appear at 11:59:30.  Now think of that time span times 13 billion.  That's a lot of time for evolutions and chance occurances to all come together.  Who knows what might have happened in the spans we know nothing about?  There could have been millions of planets, life, animals, people, civilizations that got completely wiped out over time and the universe just reformed a couple hundred times.  We don't know for certain.  We know nothing for certain.  All we can do is go on what we do know.

Hmm, interesting thread.


Rapes by strangers perhaps. What about marital rape?

An interesting read (PDF):
The Human Rights of Middle Eastern & Muslim Women: A Project for the 21st Century by Janet Afary (http://www.ccmw.com/In%20The%20Press/Janet%20Afary%20-%20The%20Human%20Rights%20of%20Middle%20Eastern%20&%20Muslim%20Women.pdf)


No such rule.
If the husband's a pussy, I suppose the wife would be the boss now, wouldn't she?  ;)

you call me a noob yet cant spell a pretty simple word "exist".

Marital rape is a hot subject in ANY country. I am very interested in any womanly rights anywhere and kid's rights too as it happens, and trust me, marital rape is as common in our countries. Beatings too. For example, Italy as an EXTRAORDINARY count of 48% of women beaten up by their husbands ( yes, you hear, that makes almost 1 out of 2 women). Now, Italy is catholic, not muslim  ;).

As for the " rules", some are ancestral. Not written. It's a heritage passing. Oral laws. Tradional within arabic and jewish communities ( oral laws)

Marital rape is common. But Muslims have the highest incidence of rape and beatings within the family. Why? Because they have no laws against it. It's taken to be normal for a husband to 'punish' his wife. (I even remember a case in which a cleric said that it was commanded by God.  ::) ).

I believe in my self. Not in God.

I've heard about that shit before, and also about the kind of "punishments" that they administer.? I didn't know how true it actually is though...

Since Allah knows best!!! Lets look at the 16 year Atefeh Rajabi?s that was sentenced to DEATH by the Prophet!! Ayatollah!! a member of the prophet hood!! anyways she was put to death by stoning because she was raped by her brother.. hmm.. Corrupt? what about the brother.. oh thats right nothing happend to him.. I guess she wasnt looked after properly!! sick fucks..

I'm roman catholic, I question everything about god/jesus.. It's not that easy to have blind faith, you have to wonder about things.. I just am because that's what I was raised as.. I'm not very religous though

Of course there are laws against it. The law is called a DEATH SENTENCE!! Again you're ignorant enough to follow what people say rather than what the scriptures and the fiqh say.


What are you talking about? Again fool you look at what people are doing and not what the scripture and what our actual religion says. Unintelligent.


How was i being sexist? You're acting as though i trying to put down women and make men seem better or something. You're ignorant as you purposefully straw my posts to reveal and infer things when there's nothing to infer. I agree with Brody about the raping brother is Unspeakably disgusting but as i dont know what you're talking about I'll leave that. Like it said in the hadith; "Prophet Muhammed (peace be with him) said "My generations the best, the generations after and then the generation after"

Also he said "Towards the end of time, there will be 72 sects of so called islams, but only one will be correct."

You ask a Muslim today things about the quran when you read it and you'll be suprised how lacking we are in religious education

Wrong again. We Muslims have a crap rep. but if you really think we're evil, then why has islam increased by 235% over the last 30 years i think. the answer isnt quite population boom. Ask Yvonne Ridley

One word. EDUCATION! There's a lack of religious education generally for muslims.

Death sentence, BS. Muslims in India (and I believe elsewhere) don't have to follow the laws laid down by the legislature, applicable to everyone else. They have what they call 'Sharia' law, which are the laws set by your clerics and Imams. Under this law, the following are legal:

1) Polygamy - Marry as many women as u want, when u want.
2) Divorce - A simple matter of uttering the 'Triple Talak'! No procedures or paperwork required!
Plus, the woman cannot divorce a man, only vice versa.

When was the last time a Muslim man was sentenced to death for beating his wife? Check out the BS that happens in India alone (Mind u, these are real cases): http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002275.html

P.S: Your argument that "what the scriptures say is different" is invalid. If all ur Imams and clerics misinterpret the Quran and behave as mentioned above, what's the use?

I think religion nowadays is so corrupt that everything written might be interpratated wrong for your own convinience, therefore religion today sucks  :no:

come on it's just a girl, it's not like she is human being or something ....

woo sakib getting angry...

(http://www.theodoresworld.net/pcfreezone/coxandforkum1.jpg)

(http://pics.jp.metropol.dk/151/151564/151564_large.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Jyllands-Posten-pg3-article-in-Sept-30-2005-edition-of-KulturWeekend-entitled-Muhammeds-ansigt.png)

No I think your the unintelligent one.. your the one who is not open minded.. and dont try to change what you said.. it was very sexist and elitist.. so go live your life.. hell your only 15! your not a prophet.. I think you have to kill a few jews first... or at least direct a few to do so..

^ I'm going to go out on a limb here and estimate that the bounty on Brody's head is in the 6 figure and/or 50 virgin range.

Those cartoons were totally uncalled for. Why can't u just stick to the discussion?  >:(

Take them lightly :) See we live in free societys where things like this can be shared and printed... whether Allah or Muhamed likes it or not! My point that he keeps denying is that hes a sexist elitist.. and so is Islam.

I can assure u that a certain member of this board will not take it lightly.

Well If it upsets him that much I guess he can call a jihad on me! My point is he talks about how Allah chose men only for prophethood because women have Issues! But then take a look at what the Prophets and Prophethood did in response to these cartoons! They freaked! If Allah knows best why does he make evil people prophets?

Christianity is the same way.  Catholicism, for about 1500 years was strictly about interpretation from clergy, not necessarily the message of the book.  So how are people to know that what the clergy said is what the bible says?  How are people to know that what the clergy say is NOT what the Bible says?  It works the same way with Muslim clerics today.  How is one to know what the real message is?  Likewise, isn't it against the laws of Islam to translate the Qur'an?  It was the same way with the Bible for a long time-- it just was not translated from Latin until Luther's 95 Theses.  Additionally, nothing in the bible speaks of the 7 sacraments of Catholicism, yet they are considered to be mandatory to get into heaven by Catholics.

A religion will always be judged by its leaders' actions, not by the message of the book.  And rightly so.  Why does the message of the book matter if the leaders are so willing to violate all of its precepts?

man this thread is turning nasty.... :nervous: whats worse....religious talk or political talk? well both discussions are bound to cause greif.

I don't think any one persons beliefs are anymore right than another's. A north american's way of living is so different, you could argue who right or wrong forever....middle eastern people take religion very seriously....it's something that western societies can't understand

Genesis, it's not the same in all muslim countries as one and having laws doesn't mean you apply them.

You are generalising too much.

True. I wasn't talking abt ALL Muslims, that's understood. I was in the Gulf (read Qatar, U.A.E and the like) for 11 years and none of the problems I mentioned seem to occur there. The places I'm talking abt are Pakistan, Afganistan and India.

India is not a muslim state!

Wrong totally wrong! The scriptures are not invalid. Polygamy in Islam only limits to 4 at a time, Divorce is also complex, and a woman can divorce a man. You are only proving more and more the quran when it says when men follow their own desires they corrupt religion as shown in Surah Ruum, Surah 30.
Islam is the religion off Allah and we live and do things according to how Allah wants us and if that's not what these Imams arent doing, i declare them non-Muslim. Your arguments of following people is invalid because what people do is not necessarily whats allowed in the scriptures.
Mustafa Kamal, the great traitor to Muslims BANNED Headscarf for woman, BANNED azaan (call for prayer) and this was in Turkey, once a very powerful country for the islamic state. Does that mean women dont wear headscarfs and say Islam says you dont have to wear a headscarf????? NO is the answer, the answer is NO!!!

India is more muslim as years go by.

Personally, i was talking to this Morrocan girl just yesterday and she was telling me about her 3 days long wedding with her 5 traditional costumes, her carrying by professional carriers, her white european wedding dress and all, it sounded fab.

I realyl think some people can only see other countries with how they were brought up in their own and that's sad.

yOU'RE SOOOOOOOO bored as to actually trying to offend me. I know i aint a Prophet, i disagree that prophethood is the right way for me because I feel it'd be too much unless Allah suggests otherwise. You know secretly there's nothing wrong with islam yet you try attack me talking about muslims. I was not sexist.

Example, Me and Dad go to the mosque or lead a prayer in the house, what do my sisters do? Well the one that has a child has to look after them as the father is out the country, every other woman is on their menses and doesnt have to pray or read quran because the blood that comes out isnt hygienic as such. and to read quran and pray you have to be 100% hygiene via ghusl or wudhu.

Prophets had to lead their people into prayer and stuff and bear witness to revelations which a woman couldnt have done if on menses. You are an insane liar and your arguments are very weak. I'm disappointed in you.

ps :

a lot of customs are exactly the same in the jewish religion

What "Prophets and Prophethood freaked"???? Again this makes no sense and you are looking at the so called followers and not the islam of the quran and authentic hadiths states.

Again you lie!! How are we evil!! If you claim we are such terrorists, WHY HAS ISLAM INCREASED BY 235%!!!!!!!! Answer, NOT POPULATION INCREASE! NOT ALL OF IT!!!

ASK YVONNE RIDLEY!!!!!!!!

Secondly, I said i suggest, maybe i was wrong, how was it sexist? I was understanding that Menses can be a tough time for women.

Islam was spread into Malaysia and Indonesia and even China and as far as north africa and BY WHAT MAJOR TERRORIST ARMY??? If Islam was that bad religion, WHY is there Still CHRISTIANS IN SAUDIA ARABIA!!???????? WHY are there Christians in IRAQ!????? WHY are there CHRISTIANS IN EGYPT!!!! If we are all that violent as you like to propogate there would be no other religons except pure muslims in these countries. Again you have no base, again you propogate. If you try and anger me with these cartoons, i dont stoop down to your loser levels. I attempt, i say ATTEMPT a more contructive output.

Please explain how im an insane Liar? I dont think i was the only one who found you comments sexist! So let me get this! Women are not Hygenic? so they could not lead prayer? makes no sense to me! just sounds like another way for men to step over women!

pss :

i am awful on menses

tough alright

 : ok:

Yeah, but there are about 200 million muslims, which is a considerable amount.


What a joke.
4 as in a foursome?  ;) Get real, man.


Once again, u put forward the same argument. It's not what the Quran says that's key here. If ur 'book' is written in a cryptic language that nobody understands and requires the use of 'Imams' for interpretation, what's the use of the Quran? Seems like the 'Imams' are having a ball...

What's ur answer to Duffman's post:


And most important of all, a quote straight from the Quran, allowing husbands to beat their wives:


"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more [strength] than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them [first], [Next], refuse to share their beds, [And last] beat them [lightly]; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means [of annoyance]: For Allah is Most High, great [above you all]." - [Qur'an] 4:34 English translation: Yusuf Ali.

What's ur answer to that?!!!

Brody, just shut up will you ?

Your " they treat their women bad" is crap.

have  you ever chosen mates or football over a girlfriend ?
Have you ever chosen NOt to date a girl because your friends didn't like her ?
How many jobs go to men when women are qualified in the US or Europe ?
Do you get up and leave your seat to women in public transports ?
Do you open doors ?
Do you try to get to know a girl before you look at her ass ?

We're not talking chivalry here, beating any person almost to the point of death certainly does not compare to any of the things u listed above.

Did I ever say terrorist? No but if you want to speak about Iraq or Iran or Saudi Arabia! Christians have to basicly live in hiding there.. Let me go pull of a few articles on how Christians are prosecuted In Iran.. Its actually against the law to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia!! http://www.persecution.org/Countries/saudi_arabia.html Go look at that FOOL!  Or we can talk about the brutality of the muslim states?

So answer this instead of just calling me a liar!! IF ALLAH KNOWS BEST WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE THE GREAT AYATOLLAH OF IRAN "EQUIVALENT TO THE POPE" LEAD!

I must say something :

the so called equality in our countries is making men more affraid of women and the situation is making men treat women very badly in france. Worse than ever before according to old folks ( in their 70's) .

When i speak to couples who have the man bring the money in and be the pillar and caterer for his family, the man is usually happier, he feels he is needed and has a purpose.

Women who brings their kids up without a job ( by choice) are usually moe relaxed, this making themselves, trheir kids and their marriage a happier place.

I think Sakib doesn't express himself as he would want to, but i do understand that his religion prones a clearer hierarchy within families and couples, and this so everyone finds a way to be content. Women are women and men feel like men.

Well this thread turned to something it wasn't supposed to.



/jarmo

The Lord has spoken. :peace:

I know this thread's pretty much dead, but I found this clip on youtube and it reminded me of you guys.? Especially you, Sakib. : ok:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhgMg4yH7M&search=south%20park%20clip