Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I posted this in response to a message on the MyGNR forum, but since it required some critical thought and reflection I thought it might be worthy of the attention of the superior board. Feel free to rip away if you think I was wrong. If not, I think it would be good for people to read this.....

By nunchuck on Jun 16 2006, 08:42 PM:

It's from Greek mythology. Atlas was on the side of the Titans, so when the Olympians took over they punished him by making him hold up the heavens on his shoulders so they wouldn't touch the earth. He's a victim accepting of an unfair punishment, but even worse is the fact that his suffering only works to reinforce the world of those punishing him. If he stopped holding up the heavens, the Olympians could fall. Atlas shrugging would signify a revolt against the oppressor's command and a refusal to be a slave, pretty much the central idea behind everything 'Chinese Democracy' is about.

The analogous situation would be musicians who prostitute out their talents to the record companies. The record companies are absolutely nothing without the musicians who make the music they sell. Yet, far too often today, it is the musicians who submit to what kind of music the record companies tell them they have to make and how much time they have to create it. So an 'Atlas Shrugged' in this example might be someone who takes 14 years to make the record they want, as opposed to other musicians who meet the record companies' demands of about 8 months.

I think I figured out 'Patience' and it is suggestive of the same idea. Figuratively, the girl is representative of the record company eager to cash in, while the speaker in the song is the artist who needs patience in order to be able to create something original and lasting (not 'stuck in the crowd' of ordinary, transitory songs). And if you're willing to accept that interpretation, then the whistling at the beginning becomes a pretty funny inside joke - because it is sort of like suggesting GN'R was so rushed to produce the song that they didn't even have time to write lyrics for the first verse. Axl needing to read the words in the music video would be the same idea.

also a kick ass book by ayn rand  : ok:

excellent interpretation. that is one this board needs is more sophisitcation. there are far too many "what are axls favorite clothes" threads here, as well as too many fucking retards who don't bother to read intelligent theories about content and context of relevent thoughts and are quick to bash. you will probably get bashed for putting more than two minutes of thought into explaining Greek mythology. I salute you.

Great post.

That's deep man, real deep.

This conspiracy thing always attracted Axl...it's an aquarius thing...and  moon in pisces thing :yes:

Very nice work : ok:  I think it's great to have these kinds of discussion and analysis on the board. Well done. Very interesting read, that's the great thing about music, it's all about how the individual interprets it, and what it means to them, as opposed to having a meaning spelt out in black and white.

There's actually a simpler explanation.  "Atlas Shrugged" is the title of a famous book by Ayn Rand.  The is known for being highly political and philosophical.  If there is a song entitled Atlas Shrugged that GnR recorded, it probably has something in common with some of the thematic content in the book

The 2nd poster already mentioned the book, and the book's title directly references the Greek Titan Atlas, who in fact was sentanced to hold up the world. The book relates to this myth by having the thinkers and great minds effectivly go on strike. The correlation between the two is if Atlas had shrugged when holding up the world, it would have been thrown into chaos, just as it would be if all the intellectual thinkers in the world suddenly stopped their work. They in fact stop their work as a result of the government becoming a dictatorship, and the strike is done in protest of the strictness of the government.

Just finished the book. Its quite a read, great in some parts, a little tiring in others. Based upon the theories of objectivism (very pro-capitalism). A good conspiracy novel.

If there's also a song titled 'We the Living', then we know uncle Axl has definitely been reading Ayn Rand  :hihi:  I enjoyed The Fountainhead the most though. 

I hope we get some long interviews with Axl talking about the lyrics, once the album is out...

OMG I've got a brain ache!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not sure, but I read that there's a musician in Atlas Shruugged that makes great music that is not accepted by the public, and he just goes away. He keeps making music that is great, but is never publicly released.

I have not read the book, so I cannot say if this is true or not, but it seems interesting.....

It's posts like this (and peoples positive response to said posts) that makes HTGTH a superior message board to be a part of!

Your theory seems to make alot of sense and probably holds true.....

If so then my admiration for Axl just increased a couple of points!

Nice post.

But what is the story behind the Atlas Shrugged song title? Where did it originate?

cool post! glad you got to share that...




'Atlas Shrugged'...

i never heard of that as a roumored song title.. is it one?

Yeah...apparanty it was leaked on a message board but the link was taken down soon after by the poster....so only a handful of people have heard it.....well that's the impression I got anyway!

fuckin' awesome dude............i actually have goosebumps. incredible. great interpretation and i believe it to be right on. ?: ok: :beer:

I'm uncertain of the central idea behind everything 'Chinese Democracy' is about Till it comes out.
But your point of view is intriguing all the same.

Mythologies are interesting.
There's another heroic figure called Prometheus who got punished by Zeus for giving human beings fire. His penalty is more appalling than Atlas's.
He's chained to a precipice where numerous eagles come to eat his organs alive everyday forever, as he's an immortal Titan.
Doesn't this whole Titans v Olympians story remind you of Lucifer/Satan v Heaven? :-X

Great post : ok:
I think it might be right :yes:
and I love mythology :love:

leave my name out of any post on this topic.

Man thats a really intresting insite, thanks! I think your right about the oppression side of Chinses  Democracu but I dont think he's refereing to the record companies. But anyway again thanks!

Interesting interpretation man. Gave me something to think about, especially your theory on Patience. "Atlas Shrugged" is a pretty cool title (especially if the lyrics don't contain those words) but I always really hated that book. More of an essay on why unions are evil and industrialist are really flawless heroes than a novel (perhaps she was more than a little scarred from her childhood in revolutionist Russia), but cool title for a song.

Hi all. I always check this site, but I think this is only my second post in 2 years!

Was bored in work and found a reference on the BBC website to Atlas Shrugged being made into a movie.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7555679.stm

If this song is ready, do you think Axl would put it forward for the soundtrack?

Well Atlas Shrugged was published in the 1950's and people have been trying to make it into a movie for years, so it does have other similarities w/ Chinese Democracy  :hihi:

Judging for the release date of the other movie (late 2010), I sure hope it's not on the first album. :P

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged)) Atlas Shrugged is, at approximately 645,000 words, one of the longest novels ever written in any European language. #15 actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_novels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_novels)
So it took some time to read it probably ;)

AdZ,


May I dare speculate that the following paragraph from the book might have stuck in Axl's head   :rant:

"You will follow me, she thought ? and felt as if the thought were not in words, but in the tension of her muscles, the tension of her will to accomplish a thing she knew to be outside her power, yet she knew with certainty that it would be accomplished and by her wish?no, she thought, not by her wish, but by its total rightness. You will follow me ? it was neither plea nor prayer nor demand, but the quiet statement of a fact, it contained the whole of her power of knowledge and the whole of the knowledge she had earned through the years. You will follow me, if we are what we are, you and I, if we live, if the world exists, if you know the meaning of this moment and can't let it slip by, as others let it slip, into the senselessness of the unwilled and unreached. You will follow me ? she felt an exultant assurance, which was neither hope nor faith, but an act of worship for the logic of existence."


Not only is this one of the longest books but it also one of the most difficult to read. Almost every page is that philosophical and the word choice is sometimes really heavy and complex.
 

Yeah u had me till u brought up Patience. Patience first was written by Izzy, second, that song is not metaphorical its a pretty straightforward love song.


So Chinese Democracy is also a metaphor, it isnt rallying for freedom for China.

Go ahead, why would you need my permission?

Why the rip against the mygnr forum? The majority of regular posters, post at both sites.

Can you tell me why you feel that htgth has the  more "critical" thinkers?

Both boards have their advantages and disadvantages.
Mygnr allows more discussion and allows people to discuss more things - especially concerning leaks and conversations that might not just be kissing Axl's butt.

HTGTH is like your straight and narrow friend, star athlete, drinks his milk, toes the straight and narrow. Mygnr is like the hot, slutty girl at school, who get's A's in class, but also wears her skirt a little bit too short . . . .

The fact that a leak can come out and you can't talk about it on this forum says it all.

SO MY QUESTION for you, is how come you think this forum has the more critical thinkers than the other forum? I'm just curious, as I read both.

Yes it does.

It's pretty obvious who we support.

Thank you for noticing.




/jarmo

More like the slutty girl with STD's who's still in 3rd grade even though she's 24.

Can you explain how not being able to talk about something, THAT WE ALL GET THE MINUTE IT IS OUT, is supporting GNR? I am not being sarcastic, or ripping this board, I really want to know why pretending something isnt happening is supporting the band?

Hello Jarmo,
Can I ask you here . . . or would PM be better?
I'm not trying to argue with you or anything like that.
I appreciate both forums.
Just for my own curiosity . . . .
Because mygnrforum allows it's members to talk about leaks . . . . and your forum doesn't . . . . that means you guys support the band more than they do?  Can you explain to me the thinking behind that?
Because I listened to a leak, that means somebody who chose not to listen to it is a bigger or better fan than I am???
I've been to several GnR shows. Bought several GnR t-shirts. Have purchased all their CDs at least twice. And even if every song off of Chinese Democracy was leaked tomorrow - I'm still going to buy the CD when it comes out.

I guess the question that most people have is that yes . . . people who leak new songs suck and it's a shitty thing to do to the band. But how can a GnR board not allow people to talk about GnR songs that we've heard?

Thanks in advance for your answers. ANd again, if you want to talk about this in PMs instead of on the board, I understand!!!! Thanks man.

what are you talking about?  half the posters at mygnr don't even support the band, they are just there to rip on them and talk about how much they love the old band more.

this forum is for supporting Guns N' Roses, not bringing them down and trashing anyone and everyone whose associated with the band.    Maybe the management here keeps the leaks on the d/l because they don't wish to have any part in spreading them.

critical thinkers might not be the right term, I would say "respectful".

Respectful . . . . or mindless sheep?
Haha - just kidding!!!

I agree, it is annoying to listen to people who can't get over the past and do nothing but talk about wishing the old band was back together.

I think I get the philosophy difference in the two boards.

Mygnr allows all comments and thinking - good or bad - as long as your talking about GnR. They allow honest discussion - be it good, bad, positive or negative - about the band that we all grew up loving.

HTGTH only wants and allows positive comments about the band we all grew up loving.

And both boards think they are superior to the other.

I can see both sides and the merits of both forum policies.

THATS why I check out both.

Though, you have to admit, there are a lot of the same posts at both sites!

I tend to post a lot more at the other site, as personally I don't think that forums and message boards should be censored or regulated to the point where you can't say anything negative about the main topic of the forum. That seems a little un-rock-n-roll to me!!!

But again - I read both forums. I enjoy them both. And really can't understand why some people have such anger and resentment towards the other!

You also haven't posted here in two years.

Freedom of speech advocate?

I wouldn't put my money on it.

i can see that POV, but i myself have no desire to share a site with a bunch of people who hate the band and anyone associated with it.   I know there are good GnR fans on that site, but you have to sift through spam about Axl being a pirate and how great slash is, and its just not everyone's cup of tea.    This site maintains a level of respect for the band that I appreciate, yours does not.  It took 60 pages before they locked a thread that was made to trash Axls personal assistants and thats just not cool AT ALL.

We don't support or promote stealing the band's music.

It's pretty simple.


By talking about something you stole, it's like saying "don't steal, but let's talk about the stuff you stole anyway".

That's my opinion.







We want people who are true fans to come here and not feel threatened that they'll get attacked by some "objective fans" for actually believing in the band and supporting them.

We don't try to cater to the negative masses, who's only interest is bashing the band and/or their fans, and acting tough on an Internet message board.







/jarmo

How about the fact that mygnr allows its members to RIP apart members of the band and the GNR organization in general. The past few days their members have said a lot of disgusting things about Beta and Fernando in particular and nothing was done about it. It's enough to make anyone sick, and I can guarantee you it would NEVER have been allowed to happen here.

I think that alone shows who supports the band.  : ok:

I don't agree with everything here, but this place is the most reliable board about GNR and that's really a incredible thing.

Despite some stuff going on in the Robin's thread that I really think it's unfair, HTGTH is one of a few places where I can say how much I love the band (and I mean TODAY's band) without having too much harsh comments in reply.

I've been here since at least 2002 and saw a lot. I've made friends and even got excited for people watching the gigs and updating us in real time. Kudos to Jarmo for keeping up with this board for so long and through all the bullshit! : ok:

That made me feel sick. I really felt ashamed for those people with all that free bashing. And if anyone would even consider in back Fernando up, it would be labeled as ass-kissing or worse. That shows how people are narrow minded there.

But... Beta and Fernando aren't in the band. I agree some pretty disgusting things were said and I sympathize with them, but you don't need to be polite to the housekeeper to support the band.

The only way to support the band is to buy its albums, merchandise, and tickets for live shows and I think embers of all forums have done that and would do that when CD becomes available (hopefully this year!).

No need to be disrespectful towards people you know very little about. Period.




/jarmo

I know it's a dick move and nothing I'd ever do but I think it's a little unfair to say because some posters were cruel to them that they aren't real fans or that they don't really support the band.

But whatever. Glad this place wouldn't allow insults like that.

And now back on topic.




/jarmo

Thanks for your responses.
Probably not something that can be discussed, as there is clearly too much antamosity(sp) on both sides to have a debate/discussion about it, without people getting angry. I do find it somewhat humorous to see comments about how uncool it is that mygnrforum members "trash" people while "trashing" them for doing it!!! Haha -sort of the old "I hate that guy, he's such a jerk to people, always calling people names. He's such a jerk and a loser" - but not seeing they are doing the SAME thing they are complaining about.

I guess my final comment would be that it's pretty crazy to judge an ENTIRE FORUM of people based on a few people that have posted things you don't agree with it. Not every forum member over there hates Slash, hates the new band, and posts nothing but negative comments.  Your taking a small minority and making it sound like that's what the ENTIRE forum membership is like. It's simply not the case.  The pirate thing is a good example. That guy is crazy and posts weird topics. BUT ITS ONE GUY and he was making a joke.  And the beauty of it is that if you DONT LIKE what that guy posts, you don't have to read his topics!!!!

That's probably why I spend more time posting at that forum. Your allowed to freely speak your  mind without worrying that your posts/topics will be deleted at the whim of an admin who doesn't like what you said.

LASTLY!!!!!!!!!!  Some guy on here make a sarcastic reference to my post about me not being a freedom of speach advocate.  I'm here for a discussion, and to "learn" why this forum does the things it does. And his response is to be sarcastic to me? Not a friendly or helpful reply at all. So I would just remind people that there are negative people no matter what board you go on.

I promise to stay on topic now.

Oh crap . . . sorry.
But yes, that's what internet forums and messages boards are about Jarmo!!!
If my friend robbed a bank, I would talk to him about the details of what he did.  Doesn't mean I approve or support what he did.
And you have to admit, Guns n Roses are in a different situation than most bands. With no album for over a decade, but several tours . . . people are desporate to hear anything new from the new band (WHICH KICKS ASS) that they can.  The only reason leaks are such a big deal, is because of how long it's been since we've heard a studio album from the band.

BUT IT"S YOUR BOARD and I will follow the rules you put forth.
Thank you for the time and effort in making the board possible.

Oh god and it spills over here!

People just stop.

thats what it all comes down to.   at that other site, if you support the band, you are ripped apart immediately by people, many of whom could care less about the band and are just there to either spam, trash the band, or whine about the sense of entitlement they have because they post on GnR boards.    you cannot start a thread there without someone either bringing up either slash or stupid shit like pirates.

and i think its very unfair to judge leaked demos that we were not intended to hear.