Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Before the Finck groupies jump all over me, let me clarify. This guy is the weakest link in the band. I love Better and his solo in it, hell I enjoy his solos on The Blues as well, but he is far and away the weakest guitarist in this band. Bumblefoot has the technical prowess of Buckethead and can channel the soul of Slash, he's got the best of both worlds here. Maybe he's not as good as those two in their areas, but he can give us emotion and skill.

There is no reason why Finck should be playing lead. He just aint that good, his guitar work is sloppy and he's not that great at improvising solos or varying them. Fortus on the other hand can shred, he can vary his solos, and he can play the old Slash solos note for note when the time comes. November Rain he nails it, and he does a pitch perfect job in Rocket Queen. Soundwise his guitar and Bumblefoots give a clear sound, unlike Finck's.

Finck ought to play rhythm...there is no reason superior players like Bumble and Fortus should be trading leads with this guy. If you ask me, he ought to be out of the band, Bumble and Fortus are more than enough to handle the job. With three guitarists, some of the songs like Rocket Queen sound way too "busy"....Bumble also sounds a lot closer to Slash in tone than Finck does....

Apologies in advance to my buddy Jim Bob....I gave finck a fair shake in this show man.... :peace:

Oh yeah...Bumble playing Don't Cry....MOMENT OF THE NIGHT...BEAUTIFUL....a definite Slash moment if there ever was one.... :love:

I agree  Fortus and Bumblefoot is all we need as far as playing live goes. I think Finck is a better songwriter perhaps than both those guys.   Fortus absolutely kicks ass ,  he would have fit in perfectly  in the old band Along Slash.

Um, no.... Would you like to be without songs like better? Finck wrote the music to that... He has talent.

No, its not. And all you're saying is you want another Slash on the band. Robin always wanted to be himself, so move on..

omfg
u got to be kidding me saying that about finck dude... c?mon

To me, Finck has the stage presence, the talent, and attitude that earns him his place in the current lineup, not to mention he apparently wrote "Better" as well. ? I thought three guitarists was unnecessary, but after seeing the band live in NYC, Finck stole the show on many occasions. ? The guy is rock solid, and now that the goth look has been buried, he's a better fit than ever, and has more than proved his value within GnR. ?Far from obsolete, in my opinion.

What exactly has Bumble written for this band? Which solos are his own? Thus far he has only played the parts of two vastly superior players in Bucket and Slash. I would prefer Bumble to be vettisoned and the Bucket brought back in all honesty.

I disagree Finck  if my fave new member, i have been telling people from the beginning he is great. Listen to the demos and the solos that stand out are fincks.

yes

i miss BH


i almost dont even miss Slash anymore, seems like forever ago......

but i do miss BH.....

and robin is a pitch nightmare....he's flat and sharp, rarely on-pitch....but he does look cool, and must be doing something right (nin/gnr) plus, maybe his talent lies in composition (better??? is this true?? if so, impressive)

Finck wrote better, dude....better.. :-\
hes staying.

finck was pretty much perfect tonight
what are you talking about?

Finck was Finck tonight; he noodled around on the November Rain & Blues solos again both of which sound very choppy, for example. Stage presence wise, he was amazing and fun to watch. I have to admit he shines on the new songs.

i love robin, but lets be real.....he's all over the place.....he's not a very good lead guitarist.....he flubs alot, lots of string n pick noise, lots of mistakes, lots of out-of-key phrases etc. etc.


but whatever, he's cool and i think he works..

ah its not really a fair shake tho given the poor audio quality of most of the show.  Finck's best moments weren't even audible from this show.     Finck is the best guitarist in the group.  hands down  :peace:

Each of them adds a little something.  Robin has played a major role in writing the new songs.  He did write the music for Better, that alone shows how much he's worth to the band.  The three guitar barrage really rocks live, even if it's not absolutely necessary it sounds great.  To the person who said they miss Buckethead I agree, he added a whole different dimension to the band, his solos on the new songs and on the old ones were all excellent

Finck is the second most important GN'R member, in my opinion. He's got the talent, the feel and the dedication.

In Finck we trust.

yeah, its a shame we cannot heard BH on IRS, TWAT and BETTER solo's...the demos without him on them were very weak.

BH really DID replace Slash........Bumblecock doesn't replace BH.......but whatever, im happy.....axl is happy, they're playing, its all good...the nyc shows were amazing...this is the time to be a gnr fan!

When Finck is on form he's one of GNRs biggest assets. He has a unique sound and style, not to mention mountains of charisma. I'm pretty certain that once the band has been on the road for a while he'll settle into a consistant level of performance and then we'll be in a position to judge his value as a live performer.


Aside; It used to be said that European audiences judged performers and artists by their achievements, that once you had accomplished something of great merit you would always be recognised for that. Meanwhile, American audiences have always been about "what have you done for me lately?" Has some of this American attitude towards performers crept across the pond? And if so, is it even possible to maintain any sort of positive reputation as a live act anymore? Will every GNR show be followed by a thread questioning the abilities of whichever musician was least impressive on that night?

I thought finck nailed the nov rain solo. I still think some of you forgot how slash played those solos live.

Nov Rain he did awesome on!   I dont want him to play it just like Slash used to play it.  He puts a cool spin on it, I'm sure he could easily just replicate the way it was recorded, but what for?   And the Blues solo was awesome too, too bad most of the show you really could not hear Finck's guitar that well.   

he cannot play them like they were recorded, he would if he could

Slash could not either. here is the same solo fincked played tonight but its slash on this clip.
How is this any differnt than finck plays it?

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=C9AFDCF622EF6A26

that sounds edited, and not like slash.....if it is slash, and not edited, then that was a bad night for slash, he didnt sound like that frequently, at all...

whereas....

robin flubs on every single solo, riff etc. etc. but so do i.....i think he's cool, the stage dive opening night in the city, then going back for a second stage dive...that was awesome, and NOT SLASH-LIKE at all..which is cool! i want this band to succeed...

Slash was either strung out, drunk or both during the length of the UYI tour. You always bring up this same example Dave. A sober Slash is an entirely different matter. He has his sloppy nights but as anyone who has heard the VR boots can say, for the majority of the VR shows he nails the solos.

Finck is sober and can't get it together.

Anyway the point is, I think it's a crime that Fortus is relegated to being rhythm, he's better than Finck imho and certainly sounds better at the very least. Bumblefoot leaves Finck in the dust. One minute he shreds with unbelievable speed in Nightrain and then he plays a soulful Don't Cry....neither of which Finck is capable of.

I think Axl is being overtly generous when he says "better" is a finck song, but okay if we take that as 100% truth, maybe he ought to take either a rhythm spot or not be on tour. Bumble and Fortus are plenty capable of doing the old and new songs justice.

 I have tons of bootlegs where slashs the nov rain solos just like finck always does and dont give me that shit he was strung out, slash always played it that way and rarely played it like it was on the album

here is another example
i just grabbed any random gnr live cd
this is from 1991
you gonna claim slash was strung out for this too?

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=D03FDA15307CB4F9

Sly, I do think its cool you've found dudes in the group you can get into, it'll make the band more enjoyable  :beer:

Fortus and Thal are both very talented guitarists, but seeing all three of them together, I have to give the edge to Robin.   Some of those solos he hits perfectly on the old stuf, like Mr. Brownstone and Sweet Child of Mine, and he really really shines on the new stuff like Better and IRS (which the sound mix did absolutely no justice to, you couldn't even hear Robin most of the time).   Robin is perfect in this band, him and Richard together are my favorite guitar duo in Guns, from any era. 

Umm...but he was strung out and drunk off his ass...the words of Izzy Stradlin and Axl Rose(your god). Rarely played it like it was on the album? Did you watch the 92 mtv music awards? Exactly like the album version. Live era? Even better than the album version. Tokyo 92...pretty damn close. The ritz 91? Pretty freakin close.

Well if it was 1991, yes he was probably hammered out of his gourd.

But yeah that was pretty bad....but hey...we all have our off nights.... ;D

I've always claimed, in my posts, that people seem to forget Slash's own inability to play the solos he wrote. I love Slash as much as the next guy, but Finck is being unfairly compared to Slash's entire body of work with GN'R, and I think that that will only come to an end when CD is released.

I believed in the 2002 band because of Buckethead. i have no problems accepting the past is the past as long as the new players are up to the level of the members they are replacing. Bumble proved that to me tonight and I don't think Buckethead is indispensable anymore.

The sound and mixing was atrocious, I'll give you that....I hope some soundboard recordings are released....from what people at the show are saying....the sound and guitars were effing great....

How and the heck do you know Finck is a better songwriter? ?Robin, has basically "0" published works, where he is credited as writer. I just want to point out, that you are again trying to stir trouble, and as usual, everyone else has the last laugh because of the retarded logic you were trying to use so you could come across as knowledgeable. ? With that said, Robin is my favorite new member next to The General. ?I think everyone of the guy's in the band are talented in their own right. ?

You know live era the redid A LOT of it right? ?LOL You can make all the excuses you want but its a fact slash rarely played the nov songs just like the album version.

I don't doubt that Slash had on and off nights, but I don't think Robin's goal is to note for note reproduce the original sound. But I wish he tried to be smoother with his sound; the choppiness annoys me at times. Don't get me wrong, he is a star and a great live performer. But at times, he hit notes which I cannot believe came from a professional.

on the other hand, bucket was the perfect foil for Robin: a technically skilled guitar whiz to balance the noodler.

Robin wrote most of the music on the new songs you do know that right. He wrote better, guitar for twat, irs, and he wrote the solo for the blues.

I hate to defend Swingtrader, but at least from the new songs that we have heard, Robin's contributions are very exciting.

Exactally, finck is always being compared to how slash sounded on the albums not live. You compare slashs live solos to fincks live solos and they are very close.

He wrote guitar for TWAT? :o Including the outro? I thought TWAT was one long Buckethead jam.... ???

The outro for TWAT from about 4:20 onward is clearly Buckethead.  But Robin is the one doing the main riff and the middle solo

TWAT is all robin save the fills and the outro. But the melodic solo is clearly robin

you have no idea what the hell your talkin' 'bout!! :o

How can you possibly say Robin is the weakest part of the new lineup. I think Robin is one of the most talented, and amazing players in the group. I love his sound, and I love the way he shows he has fun on stage. In 2002 I didnt really think much of Robin but right now he is one of my favorite players in the band.

Finck is garbage as a guitarist. He butchers November Rain EVERY EFFING TIME he plays it.

That's inexcusable.

And it's not just that, he butchers most of the old stuff.

Trent Reznor has said how happy he is that Finck is gone from NIN. If you aren't good enough for NIN, how can you be good enough for GUNS N ROSES?!

same thing here.

are you crazy.
he was pissed.
first in 1999 he did everything to get finck back.
then Axl took finck back after the nin tour, and when with teeth was released, trent said he was pissed cus Robin left, and it took him some time to find a worthy replacement.

Leaving NIN had nothing to do with his guitar playing abilities, it was personal. It came to blows between Robin and Trent on the Fragile tour.

Have you said anything positive about this band in the last couple of days??? Werent you bitching about Axl showing up on stage late? Now your gonna bash Robin? Cut these guys some slack, be happy with what we are getting right now.

Funny... I guess the bad mix is being used as an excuse too people to bash the new band. All of them, not just Finck.

Right after Hammerstein shows, a lot of people were saying how fucking great Robin was, how he owned the gigs and even improved his skills. Its fucking lame to see people overlooking at the boots and say "oh, Robin didn't play that right, Axl had no voice, bla bla bla".

How many times this new band will have to prove themselves as capable players? How many times are you people judge them by crappy bootlegs?

That's fucking sad, you know... If I didn't like this band I would just not bitch about it in every fuckin' thread.

Sorry for the little rant.

fucking a voodoo. its a sorry state of people that have not been aroun the banmd here all these yrs makng these assinined comments!

Im not here to start shit but after watching this RIR


These three guitarist combine still cant come close to holding Slash's dick.


I just had to say it.


The legendary GUns N Roses??

One member is a fuckin legend not the band.

I think it's weird how in the GN'R fan community, we still manage to find, focus and fight about any negative aspect we can come up with, instead of praising what's good, we seek out the tiniest flaw, latch onto it and then let it snowball.

For years, all this crying and whining about Axl's and GN'R's silence and lack of public activity, then when it all finally seems to happen, we neglect the positive aspects, at least in comparison to the negative, ?and the same old shit is being rehashed complained about over and over and over again. Is this the way of the average GN'R fan? Because I can tell you one thing, it's pretty fucking sad, and I for one choose to no longer participate in any negative discussions regarding GN'R cuz it's getting real fucking old. I want to get ready for what's coming. Guns N' Roses are touring, they have decided on the members they felt completed the band and that is its current line up, they are releasing their CD this fall, it's all good.

A round of Prozac for everyone!

Nice post, dude!


Listen to this and tell me those two guys can't play:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=status&st=ok&ufid=086E54C97A0FE2E3

(Richard solo and Richard + Robin duet on Beautiful - slightly better quality)

The new band is great. I love all the new guys! (finck indeed does fuck up nov rain solo everytime so it seems, but oh well.....he makes up for it with his stage presence. I can easily live with it) The new band rocks!!!  :D

Finck is still the worst soloist I have ever heard.

That solo before Nightrain??? what the fuck was that? Sounded like a God damn dentist drill.

Lisboa must have pissed Axl off.

U get about 200 Solo's including a drum solo "if u arent Tommy Lee, U shouldnt do a solo" then u get Bumblefoot's Bumblefucked solo and then Finck's dentist drill.

D do me a favor and a favor for ever one else here , just SHUT THE FUCK UP! : ok: :peace: :rofl: :beer: :)

The only thing which wasn't too cool was when Bumblefoot pulled out his bumblebee-guitar.......and then the wings started flapping out of it.....I was like......WTF? haha I can't believe he pulled that shit.........GREAT GUITAR PLAYER tho! Love the guy!

Best fucking post on this board since the leaks happened.  I swear half the people don't hear shit and are just infatuated with the fact that Axl is back and CD looks to be on the way.

He said "Aaron North pisses on Finck's shoes"


and he does

I thought richard and ron were great last night, really impressed with richard solo bit, ron shreds, but i knew that before he joined gnr. robin...
always liked him, last rio gig he was good, now he rules, he got almost as much screen times as axl, which is good...i though his solo was a little weak but other than that he was amazing

stop knocking robin, pick on someone else

Robin seemed to be the only guy on stage other than Axl, that had some some real stage presence.   Bumblefoot, brain and even Tommy looked a little like backup musicians last night.  Brain's drumming was perfect though.  Fortus, who I was quite impressed with, looked more like he should be playing in a punk band with in a much smaller venue, he kind of reminded me of the touring guitarist from The Prodigy.  Again, I was however, impressed with his playing.  I actually think his style suited GNR best last night.

Ohh I forgot the keyboardists...

Chris Pitman is making GNR sound more like Pink Floyd, and I think Dizzy is almost morphing into Axl in appearance hehe

Robin was great yesterday. Fortus was the best. Ron Thal....well... is he really necessary? ???

i think ron was reeally great yesterday. i know about your opinion anyways :hihi:

richard`s guitar solo really impressed me and robin was great, too. i hope we`ll get a better broadcast soon. the mix was really utter crap :no:

I think the Richard/Robin duet is the force of this new band on guitars. Bucmblefoot just seems the "too much" guy.
I don't have anything about him, but what I saw yesterday showed once again that the band doesn't need 3 guitar players.
This new band is made for Richard and Robin, 2 guitars.

finck should be out

Ron owned Nightrain last night, he won me over.
Fink was allright and Fortus surprised me in a postive way, this dude can play.

Finck is the man. He's so cool, it's unbelieveable

yeah dude, Robin finck is too cool! awesome show!  :D

All three bring their unique talents and skills to the table. If you're into the virtuoso speed player- you've got Bumblefoot. Finck is for the noodley disconsant crowd (and if he did write Better... than he's a hell of a writer too), and Fortus is like the "link" to the old band- this guy hits STUDIO VERSIONS of Slash solos note for fucking note and otherwise just brings that great R n' R feel that GN'R was always famous for- as many have said- he would not have been out of place on stage during the UYI tour.

Anyway, I think they're all great (I prefer Bumblefoot the most myself) and we're very fortunate to have them all on-board. I'd like to think Bumblefoot will be given a greater opportunity to shine live.... but that, I think, will come in time.... maybe he'll even get a crack at re-recording some of Bucket's parts and a chance to write and record on the 2nd or 3rd albums at least.... but I don't feel the need to knock Finck or Fortus in expressing that opinion.

Most of all.... THEY ALL SEEM LIKE COOL GUYS that get along with each other..... and that Axl enjoys working with and being around... and when that's the case... we all win. :beer:

i like Finck... he's a soulful player just like Slash and John Frusciante. sure he's sloppy live but so is Slash.

btw, anyone else pick up "Normal" by Bumblefoot? a pretty decent cd. not full-on shredding but done with taste. he's got some songwriting skills as well. i can definitely see him coming into his own with GNR in the future.

There really is no reason to keep talking about a vastly superior player, when Buckethead is compared to Ron.

Ron is every bit as talented and accomplished. Ron has more songwriting skill in his pinky finger then Fortus and Finck combined. Next to this he has a Buckethead-worthy technique.

-PEACE-

It is pure nonesense to say that Buckethead and Slash are "vastly superior" to Bumblefoot. You may prefer Slash and Bucket more- which is certainly you're right- but keep in mind that most guitar publications that keep track and rank that type of thing routinely put Bumblefoot slightly ahead of Buckethead and years ahead of Slash.

Finck IS Gn'R !!!

WITHOUT HIM THIS BAND WOULD SUCK !! : ok:

I admit I didn't take the time to read this thread, just the title. Its a busy weekend. Anyway I can tell you that in New York Robin is the one who owned it!!! maybe they are taking turns a little! Anyway I think Robin has done some amazing work on his talent!!
amy

I think Finck is great! He has stage presence and is an amazing guitarist and he seems to really enjoy himself while on stage. He's absolutely my favorite one of the current guitar players in GN'R. I like Fortus and Bumblefoot also, but Finck is THE lead guitarist of the band.

i loved how robin walked into the spot of the crowd during the nightrain solo
and the fence-jumping during otgm was just priceless..lol

To the bashers:

Firstly, whatever you think of how great Slash is (and he is, great player, he wrote these riffs, etc), if you think that any competent player couldn't play the solos and songs exactly like he did, then you're an idiot.

If they wanted to, Finck, Fortus, Bumblefoot, Buckethead, and just about any talented guitarist could replicate Slash's work.

Is nobody here a musician?

Music is there for people to express themselves. If you prefer the way Slash played it, fine. You can not, however, criticise the talents of any of these guys.

At the end of the day, it's not about what you want. These guys have the right to express themselves however they want. If you don't like it, why would you ever bother listening to the new band. Go sit somewhere and watch old DVDs/bootlegs/etc.

As for the constant "do we need this guy" threads. They all contributed to that concert last night. The same people who moaned about Buckethead and how we only need two guitarists, now go on about how we don't need Finck. Unless you can tell me why he made the concert worse, or anyone made it worse by being there, you have no point.


@#$%Funker

Finck is on a much lower level than Slash.  Slash is sloppy sometimes... Finck is sloppy on EVERY song. Even his own.  And I don't mean he plays off time or whatever... I mean he's hitting off key notes etc a LOT.  Fucking up classic solo's.  Anyone who tries to justify duff notes being played continuously, by a guy who should be looking at his fretboard more instead of flailing around, should get some fucking ears and stop being so blinded.

Haha. Laughing at some of you guys saying "Slash played the Solos just likes Robin does" wtf is that? ( Dave-gnr2k you have 3 bad Slash solos? HEY THEY TOURED FOR TWO AND A  HALF YEARS, I don't even wanna imagine how many shows they did during that time. Unlike Robin who screws them up every single time.)

Just check out the Paris 1992 show and come back here to say he plays November Rain solo "like Robin does"...
Robin is a soulfull player, but he isn't too skilled. They should leave the lead guitar parts to Richard and Bumblefoot.

Do you ever think, that he wants to play it that way? As I said above, if he wanted to replicate Slash's solos note for note, he could do it with his eyes shut.

It would disturb me if he played the same, that's not expressing yourself, that's copying someone elses style.

@#$%Funker

this is what people don't understand.  I used to play guitar, and those first few NR solos are not terribly hard, I was able to do them the way they sounded on the album.  Although that was years ago.   Finck is not Slash, nor do I expect him to play like Slash.   IMO Finck is better for GNR now.

no dude... Adler is GNR... ask any spaniard  :hihi:


i don't hear it... i think Finck plays much better now than he did back in 02... i'd say you're over exaggerating.

Hi guys!
I'm a guitar teacher and I love to do guitar analisys (technique, improvisation skills,....).
I have been downloading a lot of material by new gn'r (only soundboard quality) to analyze the new members.
I'm going to write a complete analisys about the new members (Fortus, Finck, Ron Thal, Buckethead and even Paul Huge) some day but now a few considerations regarding Finck:

About guitar technique:

1) He's not very good doing bends (the prebends are awful). ?When he does bends the note he reaches is out of key or even out of tune.
2) His right hand is very weak. He is not very good picking notes.
3) His phrasing is really bad when playing lead.
4) He plays very interesant harmony leads. These harmony leads (chord melody) are simple (come on, he isn't Joe Pass!) but they are efective and interesant.

About improvisations skills:

1) Lead work: very very weak. Bad phrasing.
2) Harmony work: interesant. He loves to harmonize solos (Patience for example).

He's in the band because Axl needs him. I think Robin is the main composer in the new album with Axl.
Axl needs a guitar composer in the band and his man is Robin. Axl wants to sound a little industrial and he needs Robin.
The problem is that Robin can't play Slash solos very good (live or album version). He plays Sweet Child o' Mine solos because he needs credit with the fans.

Fortus does a couple of bad taste things when playing Slash solos. I think he's not very talented improvising or composing music. He's very efficient (he's the classic studio player) but has problem when improvising. He suffers from bad taste (like a lot of studio players).

Ron Thal: I'm a little disappointed with him. I don't know how much time he had to learn the songs but he improvised a lot and the only thing he does is play scales up and down, nothing else. He's boring.
Buckethead is way better than him playing and improvising.
Buckethead is one of the best guitar player with a pick in the world, but he's also very very good with fingerpicking.

In conclusion:

1) If Axl wants to sound Industrial he needs Robin.
2) Robin can't play lead guitar because he has bad phrasing (one of the most difficult thing to do in any instrument).

Regarding Madrid bad reviews:

The band was very weak, Axl has always been little professional and the new songs are also weak.
I don't want to start a war, please! This is music, remember! Not politics!

And please...........! Forget rock critics! They aren't musician, they haven't study music never! They're just music amateurs who write bad literature in newspapers or magazines!

Peace!





 ?

how do we now for sure who wrote what?..

i like all the 3 guitar players and they kick ass.. and hopefulle this is the line up 4 ever  and no more changes.. maybe that pitman could have leave the band.. he almost ruined some songs last night

Finck wrote the guitar parts to many of the new songs, yet they are boring without the contributions of a superior player. Just listen to the new version of TWAT without Bucket on it, and you can see what the band would sound like without a Bumble/Buckethead type who can really play.

The guy has improved his playing since 02, but is clearly the weakest guitarist in his own band. He may be a nice guy and have good stage presence, but in terms of raw talent I don't understand where the love for him comes from when he can't hold Bumble or Fortus's guitar pick.

Pittman was just too high in the mix. Not hes fault...

I think Fortus and Finck should switch. Ron doesnt play enough because of Finck, he is much better. Fortus is (to my surprise) a better lead player than fink. Bumblefoot should tackle the hardest solos and then Fortus the other ones and maybe give Finck like patience or something. He is too sloppy and cant improvise. Slash gave life to all the solos they play (obviously besides new material) so Finck should RESPECT it and not try to improvise November Rain as if he is Zakk Wylde or something adding some shred in or whatever. Bumble was note for note. Fortus is a cleaner player than Finck.

If I were Axl I would reunite the lineup, but im not so im just voicing my opinion.

dumbest dumbest post EVER!!!!! everyday i read something more dumb.  Better is a Robin song.  Bumblefoot is the only band member in question..... are you fucking kidding me?  Robin's solo in better is amazing..... his solo in the blues is amazing.. the dude's playing style is the future of this band.... bumblefoot = Matt Sorum at this point.  Also, anyone that saw the band with Buckethead knows that Buckethead is missed a lot and Bumblefoot so far does not compare.  Maybe he will at somepoint.  Not now... so why would you replace the most important member besides axl.... with the least important.  So fucking dumb. 

I think that all three of those complaints are style arguments rather than technique. You're making assumptions in each case about what you think he's trying to achieve, and comparing the results against textbook guitar technique - the problem being that if your assumption is wrong then your criticism is wrong too. Example: If you're expecting Finck to use bends in a "classic rock" style, to fluidly extend one note into the next, then of course it's going to sound "wrong" to you when he instead spends more time "in the bend," creating that broad, dissonant sound. The focus there is not the start note or the end note (in fact, the end note is not even a consideration) but the broad, sprawling wail between. Yes, it's pitchy and out of tune to a degree, that's the point. It's a more emotionally resonant, organic sound. I don't know why it's not in your Bumper Book Of Guitar Teacher Technique, maybe you need to update it from the 1980s version.   :hihi:

And really, "bad phrasing"? There's no such thing. You don't have to like his phrasing, but to call it "bad" is like saying "he's expressing himself wrongly!"  :confused: I guess Miles Davis and John Coltrane had REALLY BAD phrasing. I bet there were trumpet and sax teachers going crazy over those two.  :P

Textbook technique rarely makes for good guitar playing. Any point that is agreed upon is, by definition, only an average, a middle way.  Great guitar players have always done their own thing. I mean, do you judge Hendrix's woodstock performance as a disaster of technique or a shining example of emotive, spontanious music?

Yeah Finck must really suck, that's why he's in one of the biggest bands of all time.  God, Axl what are you thinking???  You need to come on this message board to pick guitar players because you obviously have no idea what you're doing.  GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK PEOPLE!!!  You are sitting here criticizing him on a fucking message board and he's up there playing in front of thousands of fucking people.  Give it fucking up, this new band and Finck are here to stay. 

...from what i have read, no Robin then no Better. Better is my favourite song to come out of the new GnR (along with the Blues). So i say Robin is good for GnR  :)

...without wishing to sound harsh...
it's the rest of the band that could be replaced without any real issues (bar Axl o'course  ;D )

In first place study music guy, because kids like you are responsible for putting so much garbage on the net!
I cannot believe how is posible that a human being can put such aberrations like this: "I think that all three of those complaints are style arguments rather than technique". ?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Style and technique in music is the same!!!!!!!!!! The style is the way a performer uses his technique!!!
Another pearl from you: "And really, "bad phrasing"? There's no such thing. You don't have to like his phrasing, but to call it "bad" is like saying "he's expressing himself wrongly!" ? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: In music phrasing means this: A natural division of the melodic line, comparable to a sentence of speech. This means Robin can't put two or more melodic lines together good because he doesn't know who to change properly to one posture to another. He has a poor technique in his left hand to do this. PERIOD! This is basic guitar teaching!!!!
And YES, DAVIS and COLTRANE had GREAT PHRASING!!!!!!!!!
Another good laugh sentence from you: "If you're expecting Finck to use bends in a "classic rock" style, to fluidly extend one note into the next, then of course it's going to sound "wrong" to you when he instead spends more time "in the bend," creating that broad, dissonant sound. The focus there is not the start note or the end note (in fact, the end note is not even a consideration) but the broad, sprawling wail between" ?:hihi: :hihi: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
A bend IS A GUITAR TECHNIQUE USED TO CHANGE THE PITCH of a note, and the most important thing is the END NOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How is possible that you don't know this?
You are saying stupid things like i nedd to update my books..... ?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Do you really think Robin plays modern music? Modern guitar players like Buckethead or a lot of modern Jazz and Classical players play atonal music. Finck plays Rock with cheesy pop melodies (The Blues or Better).
YES, he is out of key whenever he's using bendings. POINT. Don't talk about stupid things like ?"pitchy and out of tune to a degree, that's the point. It's a more emotionally resonant, organic sound" To be out of key or out of tune doesn't mean DISONANT.
Hendrix played DISONANT music in Woodstock during his legendary guitar solo, Robin is out of tune.
Another stupid thing from you: "Textbook technique rarely makes for good guitar playing" ?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Ask this to any Classical guitar player. If you don't know they have the better technique in the world and they have learn at ?Musical Conservatories using textbook.

Thanks for the good laugh guy! ?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
And remenber.... learn something about music before talking about it! Don't spread your garbage knowledge over the net.
In case you don't know it there are a lot of guitar teachers in guitar boards giving very very bad reviews to Robin Finck and they are all saying the same thing about his poor bendings and bad phrasing.

Peace guy, and don't use my time to teach you this Basic things!

As I keep saying whiteshark, the minute you start analysing a person's playing the way you are, you have totally lost sight of what music is about.

Music is art and it brings out different feelings in different people. I listened to Robin, and I love the way he plays, I enjoy it, as do many others. Your "analysis" of his playing in inconsequential.

You think people give a fuck about phrasing and bends?

You wrote all of that reply talking about pitch, and crap like that, laughing at someone because you know all the technicalities of playing? I feel sorry for you.

@#$%Funker

I know u just didnt post that.

U of all people MR THE BLUEEEEEEEEEES is gonna have the audacity to come on here and tell someone that THEY should shut the fuck up.


Pray u never meet me at a concert.

Please never put Robin in the same sentence as Slash and John Frusciante cause he is nowhere on that level.

If Robin wasnt in GNR there wouldnt be 5 people on here who would say he was a great guitar player.

I believe some of u support Axl so much that u turn a blind eye and ear.

I personally think Fortus is the best guitarist in the band and thats not necessarily a good thing.


U guys come on here talkin bout Robin Finck.. Those demos are great because of AXL.

None of the riffs *there really arent any riffs* are memorable or will stand the test of time.

I like Robin Finck. True, I wouldnt have known shit about him if it wasnt for GNR, but I like his playing and I like his style. He stands out..that's cool. I don't care if he plays sloppy..last time I checked this is supposed to be rock n roll and not the Vienna orchestra or whatever.

 :beer:
Finck = Sloppy
Bumblefoot = I like him, but he's just a wanker...at least he's not that fuckhead Buckethead breakdancing during shows and whatnot.  He's also just a really fast player who was a freak although he could probably play everything flawlessly.

@whiteshark

OK. lot of words, but not much to read. I respect all your typings, but don't make it like you are the only expert here. Some things you say take you far away from plain guitar analisys... Your 'phrasing' makes me wonder if you can be objective. Really no hard feelings and I enjoyed reading your post, but most of it is not worth the key presses. Sorry...

1) Yes music is art, but art needs good technique to be art. Do you think that when a child makes a drawing it's art? ?:hihi:
Do you think Robin makes art? ?:hihi:
2) Yes, there are a tons of guys who "give a fuck" about phrasing and bends. For example, you. If you don't know what's its called phrasing and what's its called bends is another thing.
3) Do you really think that I have made an "analysis" about Robin playing?? ?:hihi: The technical abilities of Robin are so poor that it's imposible to write more than two words about his playing!!!! ?:rofl: :rofl:
4) And finally.... My "analysis" is "consequential" because have a consequence. The consequence is put arguments about a reallity. The reallity is that Robin Finck "SUCK" playing lead guitar.
I don't put bad reviews about his composing abilities, I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I'm just saying he's is REALLY BAD playing lead guitar. If you like is just for one reason: "You have BAD TASTE" And the BAD TASTE is derivated from REALLY POOR MUSIC EDUCATION. PERIOD. Begin listening jazz or classical guitar and you will know soon or later what's the meaning of PHRASING.
Now I'm feeling SORRY ABOUT YOU, KID!

Why do you attack me when I'm talking about things that you don't understand?
If you want to talk about who is better or not playing guitar go to music schools now, please!!!

ROBIN FINCK IS PERFECT FOR THE NEW DIRECTION AXL WANTS IN GN'R. HE'S GOOD COMPOSING THIS "KIND OF MUSIC". ANOTHER THING IS THAT HE CAN'T PLAY LEAD GUITAR.
AND ANOTHER THING IS IF THE NEW MUSIC DIRECTION IS GOOD OR NOT.

Fink is like Slash in playing style, but no where near as talented.
His solo's are very basic and he butchers November Rain EVERY FUCKING TIME!

Atleast Ron didn't sweep pick through the outro of NR yesterday like he did at the Hammerstien shows.
That pissed me off.

I really wanna hear Ron's solo during IRS.
That looked intense but the mix was so fucked up I couldn't hear any of it.

Finck's wicked, did you not hear his solo before Nightrain?  Impressed me at least, really cool solo.  If Axl wants 3 guitarists then who the hell am I to argue  :peace:

Oh, my... there goes your expertize... And humiliating other people to cover it. I am not feeling sorry about you, but about me and wasting my time here.

I'm going to say it one more time and i hope this will be the last time: The term "phrasing" is not what you are thinking about. It's a music term, it's VERY OBJETIVE and it has to do when good playing (AKA technique). When you say a guitar player is sloppy is also because he has bad phrasing (also because bad hands coordination). POINT.
I'm not want to start a war. I put my post just for the people who would want an objetive point of view. If you don't like it or think is subjetive study music.

Finck has totally different style then Slash. Lets clear things up, I am not saying that Finck is the most technical skilled guy around. He is good. He has his own style, some people like it and some don't.

Finck is Finck.
Fortus is Fortus.
Ron is Ron.

And Slash is Slash.

No need to compare. First 3 are GNR guitar players and the last, but not the least one is VR guitar player.

Assuming I am not / didn't study music, without knowing it for fact is far from objective. But, yeah this is pointless. Peace!

Hi, Velimir!

Do you think I'm humiliating someone?
What the hell I'm trying to cover?
There are two guys who begun to talk shit about me when the reallity is that they doesn't know nothing about a thing they are talking about! I mean, music.
I have only talked about bad phrasing and there isn't anybody who knows about guitar playing who can argue this!

i never said he's on the same level... i simply pointed out he's going for the same feel as those guys, and that i personally dig it. : ok:

English is not my first lenguage, so please, can you clarify this to me?
Thanks and peace!

Whiteshark,
I understand. They talked shit about you and you talk shit about them. No hard feelings, but please understand that things are not black and white. You keep using 'phrasing' as something you know all about or at least you put it that way. We can talk art in many different ways. I would never go that far to judge someone's 'phrasing' or anything else without knowing that person and even then I would not judge, but only give my opinion. As a musician you should have the wide picture... I said it many times: stage setup, monitor loudness and many other things can interefere with one playing guitar. Seeing you didn't take all this in account I doubt your objectivness.

And English is not my primary language too... You made a statement saying I should go and study music not knowing anything about me. That's all. Nothing personal. Lets take it to PM's if we need to continue this.

Once again, peace!

I made that statement about you becasue i don't need to know you better. When you say things like:?
"stage setup, monitor loudness and many other things can interefere with one playing guitar" i can understand that you don't know what phrasing is about. Are you trying to say me that i don't know what's the meaning of a simple concept like "phrasing". When one music interpreter have bad phrasing it's mean he is not very good at playing. PERIOD. Stage setup and things like that are not related to phrasing. COME ON!!!
Phrasing is not about talkings like in a talking speech!!
You need to analyze GUITAR PHRASING  to talk about giuitar technique!!!
Have you ever read a guitar magazine? They talk about guitar phrasing all the time!!!

Finck plays HIS stuff perfectly and not slash's. again it's about respect. You are in the band with 2 other guys essentially filling the shoes of a guitar god, and you have the guts (or stupidity) to go and fuck up one of the greatest solos of all time (officially)
keep Finck in the band, just not on lead.

Thanks that was really informative. It's good hearing an analysis of the players from someone who actually plays the guitar than debutantes.

Exactly, the line about him trying to put his own spin on it is bullshit, Fortus plays the rocket queen and november rain parts like the album version, note for note. Finck to date is unable to do that on november rain or SCOM. IF you want to put your own spin on it, check out what Ron Thal and Buckethead did on Nightrain's outro and NR's outro, thats called putting your own spin. What Finck does on SCOM and November Rain is called "fucking up".

@whiteshark
would you mind butcher Finck phrasing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0IDmPZ9-NA (lets take a short segment from 4:55 - 5:10)

Thanks : ok: !

Velimir

Robin is more skilled than you give him credit for. I have heard slashs solos from paris and robin played nov rain like that too on some of the shows back in 2002, so you are proving my point for me, thanks.

This is the last time i'm going to talk about a bad guitar player with someone who doesn't know anything about guitar!
So please, Velimir, let me be!

You are talking about the segment from 4:55 - 5:10
Ok!!!! ?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
He's playing a pair of guitar bendings that forms one melodic sentence. To play a melodic sentence you need ONLY a HAND POSITION!!!!!!!! To form PHRASING YOU NEED TWO OR MORE MELODIC SENTENCES!!!!! AND YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR HAND POSITION. SO........................... THERE ISN'T PHRASING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He's just ripping of Blues paterns from B.B. King, Freddie King, Albert King, Eric Clapton............................................................................................ .....................................

And know one of the worst phrasing that i have ever hear in my life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QdXxDQCfjQ&search=robin%20Finck

whiteshark your expertise is needed on the nightrain thread I started.... ;D

Finck butchering Slash's solos is the same as if Scott sang every GNR song and butchered them.


Can u imagine the shit people would scream at Scott Weiland if he sang every AFD song?

He does Brownstone and Its so Easy, neither Im crazy about and I hate when he sings them but then again I hate hearing New GNR butcher Slash's solos.


I wish Axl would play CD stuff only and VR would play VR stuff only, let the old GNR RIP.


I like the new band's new songs.

I hate it when they play AFD or any Old GNR song cause Its not GNR.

When concert promoters announce "Rock Legends GNR" thats full of shit.

Axl is a legend, the other guys havent earned that title yet.

I have put myself guitar tabs about Slash's solos from Paris 92 and all Robin Finck "solos" and I can tell you looking at the sheet paper that Robin doesn't play Slash solos like Slash does it in Paris 92.
That's for sure!!!!!
Fortus plays the first guitar solo in November Rain because Robin destroyed it in Las Vegas and Rock In Rio 3.

Thanks SylverterStallone!

Check your pm's man.... ;D

Whiteshark I know you expressed a bit of dissapointment with Bumblefoot, but what were your thoughts on his Don't Cry solo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxvEXCdMGpo&search=ron%20thal

I think Finck is in the band because of his songwriting. That's why he's earned the right to play lead guitar in this band I imagine. That's the only logical explanation anway, because as far as playing live goes,  Richard and Footie are far superior players.

His Don't Cry version is just a rework of the vocal melody interpreted by Axl in this song!
It's not bad but it is not good, it's just Ok. I mean, it's not special enough to judge it!

u got it 100% right imho.  great post!  robin is a geat player.

Yet still the third best guitarist (out of 3) in his own band.

I am sure he is a nice guy and has been real loyal to Axl, but to have him playing some of these leads instead of the more talented players is the equivalent to the Championship Chicago Bulls teams with Jordan and Pippen having BJ Armstrong shoot the game winning shot every game on the basis of loyalty and tenure, rather than talent and ability. That would have never ever happened.

Having Fink continue to play lead while there are 2 more talented players in the group is degrading the overall quality of the live product for the fans.

I completely agreed with your (whiteshark's) review comparing slash, buckethead, and ron.  But I disagree slightly with this -- I thought it was a very tastefully played and interesting part of his solo.  and it stood out as "special" in the sense of being some tasty guitar playing in an otherwise distasteful display on unmelodic shredding.

Finck is a star. He may not be the most technically proficient player, but he shines on the stage. I can't wait to see what he has contributed to the album, even though we already know that he is credited with 'Better', which is amazing...

Ron's Don't Cry thing was really cool but not impressive in a technical kind of way.
Fink is terrible at Slash's shit and there's no question about it. Mr. Brownstone, Sweet Child O' Mine, November Rain all butchered. Hell, even his solo's (I don't call the Christina Aguilera vocal line HIS solo) suck.

Let him play rythym.
He can be like Izzy... Write amazing songs but let the better guitarist(s) play lead.

Perhaps you're missing my point because of the language barrier, so I'll try to be more clear this time;

"Good" or "bad" phrasing is a subjective call, made by the listener (assuming that we're not talking about absolute ineptitude on the part of the performer, but a deliberate choice in the presentation of the melody). As you yourself stated, musical phrasing is comparable to verbal speech - by extension, the syntax used to express the sentiment can vary from person to person as it would in speech. The fact that you said "his phrasing is really bad" suggests that you believe their to be a particular way you'd prefer to hear his lead lines phrased (a specific example would be helpful here) - I suggest that different and bad are not mutually inclusive.

And yes, I think we all know what a bend is. Your complaint is that Finck tends not to produce crisp, pitch-perfect bends - and that's fine, it's a legitimate complaint if you expect him to do so. But bends can be used for much more than that, as I attempted to explain before. Perhaps if you read my previous post again at face value ( i.e. without taking it as criticism) you'll get what I was saying. Of course, there are times when Finck simply fudges a regular bend - that's life.

Lastly, I'm sure you were on the defensive because you perceived my  post to be an attack on yours but still, I don't think it's necessary to condescend to me from your lofty position as a guitar teacher. I've been playing guitar, as well as bass/keys, for about fifteen years. My "garbage knowledge" was aquired through a decade and a half of practical experience ;)

i rarely post in threads, but Finck is my favorite new member.  For the 2006 shows I feel his stage presence is amazing and has a great new look.  I love the way he expresses his emotions through the guitar rather than just picking away.  He seems really into what he is playing.  If I had to pick two I feel that Fortus and Finck are all we need (although Thal is a great bonus to have with his speed).

Is Finck needed?  Of course he is!!!

I thought this was already dead horse... Oh well..

Now we need experts to tell who is good enough?

I play guitar myself and I can say Robins unexpected notes are a hell lot better than the other two. Ron and Richard, even if I love them, are more like regular guitar players. Yeah, both have awesome skills, but they are not that different. Robin has his unique sound and his solos are just mindblowing. Saying he's not capable to play leads is just a narrow mind statement. Its like "oh, we need perfect guys, no matter if they are just like everybody else".

I like Robin's mojo on stage.  He has presence and really gets into the show, and the crowd responds well to him.  His less precise play is balanced out by Fortus and Thal.  But I still don't like his solo on NR, never have and never will  :no:

But his solo on SCOM seems better these days

whatever.  I think he does it much better than the original guy who played it.   Finck owns Mr Bstone.

EXACTLY!

bumblefoot is not better than fink in any way. 

I hate to tell you but there is no "fink" in the band.
Ron (his name really isnt bumblefoot and ron just sounds normal) IS a much better player than finck. not much to it. It's in the books, ask any educated guitarist (and im not saying I am one, because what i say are from a GN'R fans' point of view who happens to play guitar)

Finck is as creative as he is experimental. I'll take him over a guitarist who is a better technical guitarist. He is one of the reasons a track like Better is so charming. Yea I said it. Charming. That opening strange ass sounding riff is cool ass shit. Thank you Finck!

Finck is more creative then Richard or Footie.  The problem is, on the old songs, Finck tends to hit some bum notes, where as Footie and Fortus play them perfectly. Since the songs are the most important thing we'll have to live with Robins sloppiness because he has the ability to write kick ass tunes like better.

He's a better technical player

I am not a Finck lover, but anyone who can do what he does on The Blues cannot be rendered "obsolete". He might play some things sloppy in concert, but I have high hopes for his contributions on CD. The Blues is a masterpiece, and Axl's lyrics and Finck's work on the song make it a masterpiece.

Well its said that Fink is big in the song writing.....

I actually dont get why Fortus is around....no offence to him - but like why have a dedicated rhythm player -

like i see Axl wantred a shredder in BH and now BF - so ok - and u have Robin to do the emotive bluesy slash style stuff -

why not just have those 2 and like when one is playing a solo the other covers the rhythm part....i mean 90% of the set list they play only ever had 2 guitar parts. I guess the new songs are designed for 3 but it seems like overkill....

I need to see more boots of the 2006 line up to know I guess...but it always seemed to me in 2002 that BH basicly did nothing most of the time, then occasionaly had a shred part in the outro to a song or something....

I kind of chuckled when I saw the title of this thread...

Watching Rio I was thinking to myself that Robin was probably the weaker of the 3 on at least his solos, and I was really surprised by that, because on May 12th, Robin was fit to be tied.

None of the guitar players could be dubbed "obsolete" though or else Axl wouldn't even have them there.

Im sure Axl has other things he could spend his money on... :hihi: