Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Okay, this has been discussed in a few other threads, but I think it warrants a thread of it's own.

I've asked the question before, why does Axl want a shredder in his band? It's seems odd to me for a number of reasons.

a) The sound is very attached to the early to mid 80's when Van Halen, Vai, Malmsteen and Satriani reigned supreme. Ironically (but perhaps tellingly), Slash was the main reason this style of guitar playing became unfashionable. Many felt that the 80's shredders were more style over substance, a testament to technical proficiency over feel.

b) This style is very much at odds with the classic Guns sound

c) There are no major, popular bands today that I can think of that employ this sound

d) As they are playing alot of old material live, it makes it sound (as one reviewer put it recently), kind of Vegas-y or gimmicky - kind of almost Kareoke-esque.

Is Axl trying to do something, in his mind at least, radically different? Is he trying to bring back this style and in doing so, be cutting edge as the first to re-introduce this? No disrespect to BH and to lesser extent BBF, I think theyre great players (especially BH who I've grown to admire considerably), I just find it odd that Axl has chosen this type of lead guitarist.

It is worth noting however, that Slash is such an irreplacable loss, that Axl may feel he has to resort to finding a guitarist that is technically better as he knows he will never find anyone truly as magical to Guns as Slash was. So he is leaving nothing to chance from a technical level and can argue that these players are "better" guitarists from a technical standpoint. That, I feel is at the heart of his choice to have this type of player.

Thoughts?

either way, i really dont think it would be to just total Slash's guitar ability's, i mean.....no disrespect him, but Robin n' Richard IMO r' just as good, IMO, r' fuckin' brilliant n' more technical!!

The shredder thing i believe is its somethin' new to add to the GNR sound, not to say 'hey, this guy kills Slash, no bloody way!!

mmm... Im not saying he's doing it to say it kills Slash, - my theory is more that he feels he will never be able to replace Slash from an emotional, pure musical level - therefor he is going for the only other avenue available so to speak - a technical monster, one whom he can strictly speaking say, is a better guitarist.

Its a strange one

Perhaps you are right, he just wants to add a different element, it just seems a strange element to want to add if that's the case

PS: Im warming more to Finck now, however, he has a loooooong way to go before he can be mentioned in the same paragraph, let alone sentence as Slash ( I wont get started on Fortus)

I think you've hit the nail on the head here...When fans attend a show and have certain expectations in their heads of how a solo like is November Rain is "supposed" to sound, Axl is only attempting to get someone he feels is proficient enough to play it the way the audience expects it to be played. 

As far as new material is concerned, I can only speak for that which I've heard, but he's hoping that an amalgamation of players will succeed in helping some of the older fans soften the blow of Slash's departure....Each brings their own unique flourishes to the sound...For me, it's worked like a charm

well, we'll find out sooner or later when someone ask's him in an interview : ok:

i honestly think Finck has just as much feel n' emotion in his playin' as Slash did, n' it shows on stage too :beer: :drool:  which prooves to me that the Shredder thing is a bonus, but he is there for a reason!!

...........im really thinkin' about this now, i wanna hear it from Axl :hihi:

- Generally, yes, but think of guys like Michael Angelo Batio.

- Yes, it is, and I think I concur with you that Axl is trying to do something different because you can never reeplace Slash.  Given that he's not going to find anyone to beat Slash at his own game, he's gone down a different avenue.  Brave move.

- Children of Bodom?  Look into metal more, you'll find loads.

The thing that's wrong with this thread is the focus on the shredding. Both Buckethead and Ron are very unique musicians with tons more assets then the ability to shred. Ever thought about the concept that these people were added to the band for other reasons then the fact that they can play 20 notes a second? Why only assume that the third player is only brought in to tear things up? Both Bucket and Ron have made beautiful solostuff, maybe Axl wanted some of that to rub of on CD? Why reason from the classic GNR-sound (?), Axl wanted to move on from that. Classic GNR is no longer the only reference here. As long as the album and the liner notes aren't here, it's a little shortsighted to assume they were/are in the band for that little aspect of their incredible spectrum of chops and musicianship.

Futhermore, shredding has come a long way since the eighties. Look at what people like Garsed, Holdsworth and Gambale are doing. They are making some of the most highly evolved music on the planet with a very big role for shred in it. To label it as something from the eighties is just plain wrong. I really wouldn't have had a problem if the names mentioned were: Michael Angelo Batio or Francesco Fareri (because these are true gymnasts), but to have this discussion in the context of Buckethead and Ron Thal just seems weird.

-PEACE-

Im aware that Buckethead especially, brings a lot more to the table than solely shredding - I am heartened to hear that his parts are staying on CD, because Im hoping he adds a textural dynamic).
However, the soloing is what I am refering to in this thread - specifically the kind of soloing on IRS and Better - fret taps , sweeps etc...

Youre right though, it is a little different than the conventional 80's shred sound, I still find it a strange idea for guitar soloing for a GNR record today

PS: Gargh! - I realise that alot of Metal bands still employ this, it is still pretty underground and seldom heard by the general populace like it was in the 80's

General populace be damned!? They've got it wrong if they don't listen to the shredders lol.
Aren't Bodom pretty big on any case?  And DragonForce soon will be...

not in the world I inhabit  :hihi:

I think the world needs a new guitar hero, and GnR are the band to do it...again. GnR gave us Slash, right? I'm not so sure about Thal to be honest, he just doesn't seem to have the personality for it. Part me really mourns Buckethead's place in the new GnR. Kids just starting guitar need some real guitar heroes.

 There is something to be said about a guitar player like BUckethead who can hold you spellbound with no vocals! :beer:

Get out now.

You must be delirious. I should get you sectioned.

I have to say I was extremely skeptical when I heard Buckethead's playing for the first time (RIR3) and I still am not a big fan of his playing, but I feel Axl managed to use that type of guitar playing in a way that works with the songs (Better is a good example, I think). Now had there been 2 minute shredding solos in every song, then I'd be the first to say "ill advised", but fortunately they're using that technique in moderation. And, I might add, if Axl feels it's necessary to have a guitar player like that in GN'R, I'm glad it's Bfoot and not Bhead.  :)

I agree with the person who started this topic.  I've said it before and I really do believe this... Axl wants something far away from what Slash did.  Slash had his own thing and Axl does not want to reguritate it probably because he doesn't want any similarities.  Axl wants his own name in this band and not Axl will some dude replacing everything Slash did.

Slash's sound was a strange one it wasn't like a classic rock solo guitar and it wasn't shred. It was like a strange mix of the two. I think Axl's gone out and almost got the 3 elements of slash in different people. The kinda rock n' roll riffs and traditional classic rock solos of fortus, the emotional bends etc. of finck and now the super speed play of thal.

Im waiting to cast judgement on thal, im in two minds atm because the band as a whole sound better than in 2002 (Fortus + finck are really tight and axl's voice is much ahem "Better" ). Buckethead does some good atmospheric stuff, like on maddgascar but the rest of the shred is just robotic from him.

What I find interesting is there was an interview with Axl and Slash way back in the appetite days where Axl specifically said he would not want a guitarist like Van Halen, and tho I dont believe he used the word "shredder" he basically said he would not want a shredder guitarist like van halen and prefers someone who plays with more bluesy feel like Slash.  So I guess things have changed

Axl loves Teenage
Mutant Ninja Turtles, so
He needs a "Shredder". ? ?:P

Splash

/Mike

yeah I remember that too - I guess alot has changed between then and now

I think because Axl can. There are 3 guitarists of varying styles (all of which can and do perform solos) so there is an amazing variety for the guitar tracks of the new songs.

There is absolutely no need for a gimmick in Guns n Roses.  To an extent, a Shredder is kind of a gimmick.  Ya, they are cool if you play guitar, but if you are just a fan of music, it is kind of self indulgent.  Slash always played for the song.  Is he fast?  eh, not really.  He is more technical then Jimmy Page and Joe Perry, yet below Zakk Wylde and Randy Rhodes.  Slash is just Slash.  The perfect player for the sleazy gritty rock that GNR is famous for.  Rose and Slash were like Page and Plant of there time.  To me, anyone more advanced then the likes of Zakk Wylde is not needed in a Rock n Roll format.  GNR is a bluesy rock band.  I think with the addition of Bumblefoot and Bucket, maybe Axl wants to be more metal or progressive..... 

I will support this new band, but a shredder in GNR is kind of a waste of a shredder if you ask me.

Thats it right there.   The band would be perfectly fine with just Finck and Fortus.  Both are extremely talented and are the best guys for the job ($lash is not missed now).   But having Ron Thal in the band just allows them to do more.  Plus it gives for a fuller sound live.

This is called over-analyzing. Trust me I promise!

Why is there so much dislike of 2 rhythm guitarists anyway?

Judas Priest did it and people loved it!

maybe axl just spent some time listening to YES, Uriah Heep, Rush, OSI and realized what it takes to have an awesome band with techically skilled musicians. i think that's a good way if he wants to leave really behind the past , 'cause we all know what the word "rock n roll" meant to every individual ex member of GNr and now he just wants to focus on making/creating music. that's what i think. with BF i imaging a session of powerfull mixture of progressive with metal ?:o that'be amazing! ?:smoking:



 :D

truth hurts hey mate ;D ;D

I dont understand these people who think Finck and Fortus can do everything. BH was in the band for 4 years, only to be replaced by someone similar. Opinions may vary, but its obvious the material coming from BH/Bumblefoot is required for this new material, so why do people think it can be done by Finck and Fortus? If it could, would Axl have even hired BH in the first place? When BH left, that was the perfect time for Axl to say, "Hey!! We dont need BH or anyone like him. I have Finck and Fortus!!". Thats not what happened. Chinese Democracy is clearly designed to revolve around that type of player, and there's quite a few people that need to accept that. If they dont accept it, there are going to be alot of sad faces on CD release day. This might be breaking news to some, but the universe doesn't revolve around Finck.

i think shred guitar was stuck in the 80's and lost for sometime, however i think axl has timed it correctly in a snese that all the young kids in high school who are in to rock music are hearing bands like, bullet for my valentine, avenged sevenfold, trivium, etc etc.

some may think that the music from these bands is shite, however one thing that is true about them is that the guitar parts are "shred" and tend to lean towards technical proffieciency while mainting some kind of musical integrity.

i think this is what axl has seen and so he reckons that shred guitarist is they way to go, and i tend to agree, but it must be done tastefully and not a hark back to the 80's!!!

cheers

Yeah, things have changed, but that was twenty years ago.