Here Today... Gone To Hell!

First of, great perfomances of Axl and the band. They sound great. The thing I want to go to with is topic is the following. We all know that Axl sounds much better now on the old songs then in 2002. His old rasp is coming back which is great. Mr. Brownstone, Knocking on Heavens Door. Out Ta Get Me etc. It's obvious Axl's voice is much more powerfull then it was back in 2002.

However, lets take a look at the new songs. You can tell Axl has a hard time singing The Blues, IRS, Better. I am wondering is that because the tuning of those new songs require more of his vocal capabilities? Guns tuning was in Es and the new songs in E mostly? His rasp on the old songs sound great, but on IRS and Better.......it sounds like he is in pain to pull those of. Anyone else noticed that? What if they played the new songs in a lower tuning? I think his voice will come out much much better on the new tunes if they did that?

So this topic isn't exactly a deadhorse topic but I think a very interesting one. I could be wrong tho, I'm no specialist. None the less Axl sounds fucking great!

Its hard to say how effectively Axl is pulling off the new songs - we dont have any official versions to compare the live performances to.

I get what you mean, though. I think that the new songs seem to be less vocally ambitious than AFD, which is not to say they are bad or anything, but Axl's throat is not the monster it used to be. Still fucking good mind you.

And, he does sound better than 2002. And looks better. And the band is playing better.  : ok:

all the guitars were tuned to Eb (E flat) and now they are E?
That what you meant?
Im pretty sure they are still Eb.

I'm pretty sure you're correct on the tunings. I do know that the new songs are in the same key as the old ones for sure. I think he's just singing them different then he used to before thats all.

Yes, it?s still played in Eb.
I guess Better is played in a dropped-d tuning though...

better seems to be

eb
Bb
Gb
Db
Ab
Db

Yeah all Guns songs (I think) are tuned down by one fret.

Yes, that?s the Dropped-D...  8)
I haven't seen any correct tabs of Better yet (even though I claim to know how to play it right I haven't corrected them...)  8)  8)  8)

Well, to be precise, it's the dropped Db(enharmonic equivalent of C#), not D.

Anyone noticed that during WTTJ Beta runs up and of the stage behind Axl to pick something up? Guess she's also his stagehand now...

I agree, Axl sounds much better then in 02 and the band is playing much better also. ?For the new songs, I think lyrically they are much more challenging the the old ones. ?But also Axl has been singing the old songs for over 15 years, where as the new stuff only a hand full of times, so I wouldnt be surprised if he is still trying to figure out at what part of the songs does he go all out or turn it back. ?Like on the live versions of WTTJ, he shrieks out LEARN TO LIVE LIKE AN ANIMAL, but in the studio version its just another verse. ?So hopefully when CD comes it will clear up any questions. ?I still thought the new stuff sounded great though.

Regarding the new songs, and Axl's performance of them, a couple of thoughts:

1) The obvious- he does have a little more experience with the older songs live, so it's natural that his parts will be a little tighter on them.

2) As for as the new stuff being less ambitious than the older songs, I can't agree. The Blues is harder than any of the older stuff. The high notes are way up there, and it also requires a clean transition from low range to high, unlike older material like Mr. Brownstone, or It's So Easy which would allow him to sing in low range and high range alternately rather during the course of one phrase.

I am a singer and I have to say that the  "I never wanted you to be so full of anger" part in Better is some of the highest, angriest and most ambitious vocal parts I've ever heard him sing. Those are notes he sometimes couldn't hit while singing the last two words on Perfect Crime back in '91-'92.

OK, you got me there...

During 'Better' you can hear Axl say "Hey... Hey... Relax on that Shit" It's during the heavy part in the middle of the song. Is he saying it to one of the band?

Prob the people in the pit.

Yeah that's what I thought at first. then I wondered if someone in the band were over doing the heavy part as it sounded like he was talking directly to someone rather than the crowd.

According to gnrontour.com, Axl is saying it to the security personnel.

I was there.

He was talking to someone in security (bald guy, yellow shirt, standing just to the front and left of the "peninsula", if you were looking at it from the crowd) who was being a bit too enthusiastic pushing people back from the rail as Axl came out on the "peninsula" of the stage.

He said something like "Hey...Hey...Relax on that shit...let 'em get a look".? Something like that.

I was blown away that Axl would tell SECURITY to calm down.

At least he didn't use his "Lame ass" catchphrase on them lol.

Well, I agree.  From the bits I heard, he does sound better than '02 and I didn't expect that.  From the bits I've seen he also moves a lot less than in '02 (and certainly A LOT LESS than in the nineties  ;D), so that really helps him.  But it's also true when you say that it seems that he has to make a great effort to do those gigs.   And it is just a fact that a voice doesn't keep the same level over the years.  Look at Springsteen, Hetfield, Jagger, that dude from AC/DC, ...  So, I hope Axl can do this tour and any other tours without big voiceproblems, but I must say, I'm a bit afraid about that ...  Hope I'm wrong.

as far as him not moving as much, the stage wasn't that big and he didn't have the room to run around, plus he is in his forties now.

As far as I know, those were just warm up. I'm sure he'll get better in the european tour. ;)

I don't know about that (regarding the movement), he was all over the stage on the 14th. Back in 2002 he may have moved more, but he wasn't this intense.... To me Axl was a "Bad Impersonation fo Axl Rose" durring the 2002 shows, whenever he ran or danced it seemed forced. This time around it just flowed.... Between Axl's performance and the fact that Mickey Rourke was 15 feet from me I thought I got shot back to 1988.

All I know is that during the first show he sang Nightrain like he did during the Illusion tour, and on the 15th he sang it like he did in 2002.

Were you in the same venue I was?

Again, I SAW them in '02.? I was THERE on the 15th.? The voices were night and day.? Yes, his voice IS a little higher now than it was back in the 90's, but it was no where NEAR the '02 voice.?And the rasp was back with a vengance, all night long.  Not even on the same planet with '02.

Hey guy - I suggest you download the bootlegs floating around and compare them to 2002 bootlegs.

His voice is practically the same, save for him being less out-of-breath.

WAIT, you're going by the boots?? You weren't actually there?

'nuff said.

Look at the opinions of those that were actually THERE at the shows.? They all say the same thing.

I haven't heard all of the flac boot yet, and that boot is, without question, the best quality boot from the 15th so far (and probably unless we get a SB).? But given what I have heard, as good quality as it is, with the crowd noise blending in, and the other issues of any crowd recording......if you're using THAT as your basis for judgement you're going to be very surprised. Especially considering you're judging, I'll bet, the crowd recording against the SB's of '02.? And god only knows what you're listening to them on for speakers.....

His voice sounds almost nothing like it did in '02.? Now, it doesn't sound like it did in '93, when he was blowing his voice out every other show, either.  It's more middle ground, with a higher pitch, but much more "rasp" than in '02.

I was there, man.? So were a good number of the posters on this board.? Notice they're almost all saying the same thing.

yeah, pilferk is definitely right! But let's not go into that discussion cause it's obvious his voice is much much better then in 2002. I'm very glad that it is. The thing which this is topic is meaned to be about is well....like some other people said: the new songs require allot from Axl's vocals. The new songs are much more ambitious (IMO). I noticed that since his voice is going back to the rasp thing, it's easier for him to pull off the old songs then the new ones. Or so it seems to me. Just an observation.

And I suggest DunkinDave takes a listen to Knockin On Heaven's Door from the 15th, and then tell me his voice is the same as in 2002  ::)

It's much better now for sure!  : ok:

i actually think he sounds amazing on the 05. 15 boot, although his voice was supposed to be away.....and i didn`t notice the voice problems various posters were pointing out....

can`t wait for rock am ring. i`ll be fully able to judge on his voice then... and you should wait until you attend a concert yourselves as well : ok:

nah  he should take a listen to my michelle and compare it to boston 2002 :hihi:

He's using the same vocal technique now as he was in 2002 - that's all I'm saying.


Please think about how pointless that comment is - people who went to the 2002 concerts said the same thing (OMG AXL HAD THE BEST VOICE EVER) and all that crap.

We have bootlegs of the audio - being there doesn't mean anything when you have audio of the show to evaluate and compare with other bootlegs.

Which you conclude by a crowd recorded boot.? And you're wrong.? It's an amalgamation, which you can clearly tell by listening to him and actually BEING there.? It's not nearly the same technique he used in '02.? His pitch is not quite as high, and the rasp is actually noticeably present.? He's not using the '02 technique, and he's not using the '93 technique.? This is something new that incorporates, to some extent, both sounds.


No, think about how pointless it is to try to make a distinction by a flawed (by it's very nature) source, no matter what you're comparing it to.? Think about how pointless it is to tell people who was there, and witnessed his performance live, that they didn't hear it "right" because you're hearing a flawed source that doesn't paint the whole picture.? And not just "some" of those people, like in '02, but MOST of them.

Again, you can believe what you want, but I was there.? In the venue.? As were many other posters.? His voice is very different from '02.? I know because I was also there, in Hartford, in '02.? You can want to believe otherwise, but...that's the fact of the matter.

Dave...go to a show.? Then give your opinion.? Because until you do......your opinion is as flawed as the source you're basing it on.

I thought he sounded great on the new songs.  He was hitting some ridiculous notes on IRS.  Sounded incredible on The Blues and Madagascar.  Better was a little choppy in a couple places, but other than that his voice sounded very strong, he hit the high notes well, the "If all I knew was that with you I'd want someone to save, it'd be enough, but just my luck---" part he hit the notes perfect.  "Broken heart, provided the spark" part too, he hit the notes.  And the "I never wanted you to be so full of anger" portion was also dead on, I was impressed with his vocals all night

Let me point something else out too, I've listened to some of these bootlegs, and none of them have done justice to the show

Agreed 100%.

Which isn't to say they aren't great boots.  dankrass should get a fucking medal for the 14th and 15th boots.

But NO crowd recording is capable of doing full justice to a show....Here's hoping SB's show up eventually.

Either that, or an official DVD  :hihi:

I'm glad you had a fun time, but the bootlegs don't lie.

Perhaps you're regarding the concert as better than it actually was?

That seems to be a problem with people on this forum - Axl could go outside and sneeze, and 10 fans will run over and say "MAN - THAT WAS THE BEST SNEEZE EVER!".

And then two of them would post a thread on HTGTH about it.

Axl's present voice is flawed - the "rasp" as you all call it has nothing to do with his Illusion-era vocal technique. There is no "super-hybrid Illusion/2002 voice" as you're all making it out to be.

I'm a singer myself. From the low quality boots of the May 12th show, it seemed he had went back to his Illusion-era technique. But on the 15th, that technique was nowhere to be found.

Take it from a guy who has a vast array of Guns N' Roses bootlegs spanning 20 years.

Yeah. :)

I was thinking more like "in the interim before the DVD" sorta thing. ?Just to hold us over, ya know. ?: ok:

Actually, bootlegs do lie.? Especially when they're crowd recordings which, as a source, are flawed by nature, and where the vocals are pushed back and blended with crowd noise. Hell, to see that they lie compare some of the SB's from '02 to the same show crowd recordings.? Huge difference.

Perhaps YOU are making a judgement without proper information.....because, in case you haven't noticed, many more people, especially those actually there, are sharing MY opinion.? Not that popularity of opinion is the most important factor, but...when someone who was not there, and who is using a flawed source, is confronted with that sort of majority...perhaps it's time to reserve judgement til you actually get to a show.

Take it from a guy who's seen them live 7 times, with all the various incarnations, since 1987....and who has various bootlegs ranging from the same time frame.

His voice was very different than it was in '02.? It is also different than it was in '92-'93.

His vocal technique was different from both '02 and '93, and it's sound is akin to the two mixed together, with the pitch not being as high as '02, but there being more of the "rasp" from '93.? Having HEARD it, first hand, I can vouch for the fact it exists.

Again dave, until you GET to a show....your "opinion" isn't real well founded.? And unless you have an SB of the shows you'd like to share...the boots out there aren't good enough to provide much foundation to base it on.

Edit: Oh, and I would venture that the "problem" with some people on this forum is they jump to rash conclusions, with little or flawed evidence, simply to support their inherent bias (be it pro-Axl bias or con-Axl bias).

Don't be absurd - the Illusion tour "technique" was what I would call full-on vocal abuse. He screamed way too much and sacrificed pretty much any of the finesse he had circa Appetite and earlier. If you listen to the end of Rocket Queen on Appetite, as I'm sure we've all done a lot, his voice is actually cleaner on the higher parts than it is during the choruses. He was able to relax his throat and jaw and just let those high notes out. By the Illusion albums and tour, he was using way too much pressure from his diaphragm, and never relaxing his throat at all - hence the occasional effect of more than one note(which suggests that he had nodes on his vocal cords at the time).

Honestly, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but in terms of actual correct singing, the 2002 tour was head and shoulders above any of the Illusion era stuff. He is using a little more grit now than he was then(I was at the 5/15 show), and there is no question that he is pushing it harder, but he is also very smart about reining it in when he doesn't need it. I would say that Monday's show was the best live vocal performance I've ever heard him give, and that includes numerous boots, the Tokyo shows, the Paris show and seeing them in person in '93.

edit: For those that prefer the '92-93 vocal approach, consider that there is literally no way to maintain any kind of longevity with that style of singing. The fact that Axl can still hit all of his notes should be something to appreciate, not critique from every possible angle. Can you picture Chris Cornell hitting all the notes from Jesus Christ Pose in Audioslave? Maybe, but not without altering his technique substantially.

jesus, some of you people...

ok, i was there for the first three shows in NYC. i also attended MSG and Albany back in '02. I've also heard numerous boots from 02.

there is no doubt in my mind that axl's voice now is lightyears better than it was in '02, when it was all high, shrill, and lacking in rasp. Now, I will have to agree with pilferk. it still is a much higher and generally cleaner voice than in the 90's, but axl has brought a raspy quality to it that was SEVERELY lackin in 02. The difference hearing it live is night and day. I was never blown away by axl in '02, aside from his long screams in Live and Let Die. Now, at these shows this week, I was consistently blown away. Not only by the return of the rasp, but also by how incredibly strong and familiar axl's voice sounded. There were numerous times on the night of the 15th when I would look at darknemus, who was next to me, and we would just both be in awe at some of the notes he hit.

anyway, that's just my 2 cents. there's no doubt in my mind his voice is much much much improved. i hope it stays that way!!

I was right there with you (though you were blocking my view of darknemus most of the night. :) ), literally.

Blown away.  Right from the opening notes of Jungle.  I was actually SHOCKED, even though I'd been warned to expect it, how different his voice sounded from the '02 show, and from the '02 soundboards I'd been recently listening to in "prep" for the Hammerstein show.

Exactly, those of you bitching about his voice now.. seriously.. go get your hearing checked.

I was at the first three shows... Holy fuck.  AxlGunner and I kept looking at each other like "whoa, did we just hear that?".. As in "how the hell does he manage to sound so freaking good".  The whole experience was frankly surreal.  The guy sounded infinitely better than 2002.  He looked alot more 'into it' on stage, too.  Like someone who was having fun.  Dude captivates an audience like no one I have ever seen before.. its sick.

-darknemus

They're judging him off boots, where the vocals aren't as clear as they were in person.  Axl was hitting some ridiculous notes on the show on the 15th, on IRS, which is one of the more difficult songs, he was hitting the higher notes in amazing fashion

In addition, there were some general microphone / mix issues at the shows.  I know there was a definite weird feedback issue on the 15th.. it kind of sucked.  I mean, it wasn't 'show ruining'  - but it was definitely there.

Also, with 3700 people singing along at the Hammerstein to the tracks.. it made it sometimes hard to discern just how damn good Axl sounded up there.

-darknemus

yes yes, sorry for not dropping your name there... i didnt think it would help when supporting your argument to say, oh yea i was right next to pilferk also.

anyway, seriously people, axl was impressive and we kept being blown away by his voice- keep in mind, by this time it was MY THIRD SHOW in 4 days, and i was STILL constantly impressed. i mean really man... i've never been one to be that impressed with axl's voice in the 02 tour (go back and check my history if you want), but i don't think his voice couldve been any better at NYC (i never liked how it was all rasp/growl in the UYI tours- started sounding bad and worn out).

there were feedback issues in all of the three shows i saw. nothing too bad, but every once in a while you could hear some mic feedback coming through. frankly, i was surprised those weren't fixed by the third show at least.

That feedback thing was fucking annoying.  And it wasn't just Axl's mix, either, for anyone not there and wondering.  It reared it's head during the fucking house music, for gods sake...and BFMV (though who could tell).  It wasn't show ruining is right, but it was annoying.  Anything above a certain pitch (that pitch being Axl's high range wheelhouse, FYI) would cause the sound system to machine gun feedback. 

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he has been singing the old songs for over 20 years and the new ones ....not so much.. Could someone send me it's so easy from march 15th ?  :-[ I kinda erased it by mystake

FYI, Better and TWAT are played in standard tunning (eBGDAE)........ quite unusual since they dropped all of their past songs.....

Can someone let me know where I can find boots of the NYC shows?

yesssssssssss!!  i LOVED IT and it was totally amazing, blew me away!!!!!!

some more things I noticed: The duet between Fortus and Finck? 'Your beautifull?' Christina Aguilera........man....that sounds so fucking great!! Lovely soloing.....awesome!!! It sounds so great!!!

and the new guitar player......wow........he is fucking GREAT.........way better then Buckethead.....not so repetive either......more melodic......just great  :drool:

Now I go back to my cave listening to the NYC 15th boot and won't come out till the 25th  :drool:


 :beer: