Here Today... Gone To Hell!

In the interview that Slash and Duff made to the Virgin Radio, he mentioned how the raw tracks of the Use Your Illusion albums sounded better than the released version. Don't you think it can happen to Chinese Democracy?

Oh My God, for example, I think that a naked version of it could be better, by far, than the End of Days version.

I love Slash as much as anybody around here, but what did he mean by this "raw tracks".  I can tell the difference between the UYI tracks then AFD but that are still great.  I think underproduction is worse than overproduction just look at Metallica's last album.  Depth to songs makes the difference for me from just crap thrown together.

He means the tracks without the production (sound effects, etc.).

For example, "Perfect Crime" has those stupid reverse cymbal-style effects that only tarnish the the song.  Its obviously a bare-bones style riff rocker, what is the purpose of those effects?


I disagree.  I think production only hinders hard rock...And Metallicas last album was fairly produced, I think your issue is more with the style of production - not the lack of it.

I think Chinese Democracy could be in danger of overproduction.  "Oh My God" couldnt be more produced, and a look at Axls signatures (the dopey effects in "Perfect Crime," the very produced "November Rain," "My World," "Silkworms," his infatuation with NIN and all things industrial, hiring Sean Beaven, etc.), in addition to all of the time spent making "final touches"...it definitely concerns me.



I would normally agree with a statement like this, but "Oh My God" is a song tailor-fitted for an industrial sound.  Therefore, a less-produced, more hard rock styled sound would dull the songs impact.  Im still not crazy about the vocal effects, but as an industrial rocker, it works.  With that said, I really dont look forward to hearing an album full of industrial music, which is why I hope it isnt too produced in the end.

There are exceptions. While more "bells and whistles" may sound like overproduction  to some of you, it sounds to me like complexity. For instance, in 'Madagascar', if you really, really listen closely, there are probably close to 10 to 12 different synths and loops going on at various times, but they are done so efficiently, they never sound too plentiful or over-bearing.  Sure, with the average band, overproduction might take a toll on the quality of the music, but these people (Axl/GNR) can do it the right way. And 'Oh My God' was pretty perfect for the type of song it is...

good post..

first question, outta interest - what are the reverse cymbal effects you are on about?

i love illusions. i love appetite. i think u need a balance. need to know when you've done enough. illusions got bloated, but only at times. sometimes i thought the production suited the song. november rain would be a pieces of drivilly whiney rubbish without the production and layering. the layering is a 'part' of the song. it makes it what it is, all those piano parts, the acoustic guitar, electric guitar, strings etc etc. and i do love axls vocal overdubs - hes been doing them since appetite anyway!

but i do agree that sometimes its wrong for some tracks, maybe right next door to hell could be rawer? i def think pretty tied up sounds too polished. i much prefer the live version on live era. dust n bones too. interestingly i think live n let die would sound better without the horns etc but with the new slant the new band put on it in the last tour - axls growl was longer and better!

anyway, am i makin any sense? id love to hear the raw versions. i suppose only then can u make fair judgement. still, i like the 't minus 1.09 and counting' etc on perfect crime!'

bob

I disagree.  I think the synth stabs in "Madagascar," especially during the solo, suck.  I mean its bad enough theres 70 movie samples burying the music, do we need even more sound effects?

Same with "The Blues".  The RIR III version is beautiful...its bounces along steadily and is fairly direct.  Then they slow down the tempo and drown the music with the sappiest of synths and suddenly the song loses its magic to me.


Just listen to "Perfect Crime" - you should hear it.  Theyre continuous...


I hate it.

I hate it.



I don't know BookerFloyd...the veiled reference to "69" is pretty amusing. :)  That is the reason it's there, correct?

whilst overproduction could be a worry,id just rather have it than not :peace:

The whole Cd being over produced is way overblown. We have no idea how they have blended the songs and how the material will sound. Just because they bring in different types of producers doesnt mean it the album will turn out to be a particular genre. As Axl and the band has said many times, this album will be a melting pot of all genres.

If you dont like samples in a certain song or beats thats your problem. If you can produce it in a better way become a producer than talk...

Just because the material on cd is being worked on and the band is trying to make it the most perfect of albums isnt  aband thing.

Everyone talks about how raw appetite was...and it was. BUt they worked on those songs over and over until they got it right...heres a quote for you all...
"We kept developing it until it we got it right. [With] "Appetite," everything had been worked on, and worked on, and worked on. That was not the case with "Use Your Illusion."

Just because they are messing around with the songs to get it to beng "perfect" doesnt mean its being overproduced.

WHy keep bringing up the same old stuff. It has been said countless times that the material on cd is not all industrial or techno. People have said it sounds more like appetite than anything else. When Brian May comments on the material and says its amazing, i would bet its safe to say that its not a nin album hes commenting on.

Omg is a cool song. Not a classic we know that. Its something different. Annd its not overproduced. You think its overproduced because its an industrial song. If you go by that than every non bluesy type songs is overproduced. Wake up we are not in the 80's anymore.

Its telling a story. SO yes we need it.

I totally agree. The rio version is awesome. I liek the guitars from the last tour better though. But the version from rio is great.

But dude, that doesnt mean it wont sound liek that on the album. You have to stop making these assumptions about how the songs will be overproduced and the versions they use. They are experimenting relax.

The clips on the boston promo show me that the sound of the songs will not be an issue.

Excellent post. I totally agree.  Its liek when peopel say "band "x" sold out because they got away from there "rnr roots" yet the same people say that band "y" sux because they have the same old sound"

You cant please everyone. I for one want gnr to push the envelope liek they did with appetite and attemptied to do with the illusions.

Its what you liek. People liek booker might not like all the effects and production the same way i think vr doesnt bring anything fresh and new to the table. Its the same old stuff to me nothing new and different. Liek i said its what floats your boat.

Gnr  have had all the time in the world so there is no doubt in my mind that this overproduction stuff wont even be the issue. They have beatent every song down to its bare notes. ANd there is nothing wrong with that. If the finished prdcut is a masterpiece then who the fuk cares how they made the masterpiece.

Liek axl said about afd, they beat those songs down to till they got it right. Look how that turned out. They didnt do the same with the illusions. They had different directions but never beaten down every path. That is hwy its a lil choppy but you see the potential and greatness. They just didnt take thier time with the illusons.
Axl is one smart fuckin guy-zak wylde.....Relax people....just hope bucket is tsill with us. that is my only worry. cant wait til rio peace

I don't this will happen with Chinese Democracy at all.  :no:

Like younggunner was tlking about when Axl said, they played the hell out of the ATF songs and that's why it was so great. I'm sure they are doing the same with theses new songs.      

People will argue over this CD being overproduced if it takes years to come out.  Or underproduced if Axl just put it out right after TSI.  Either way there will always be an argument, take what you get if you even get it.

I think all of Gn'R's albums are brilliant just the way they are.

If GnR had released the best of the Illusion material in 1991 as one cd instead of 2 I don't think they would have lost momentum like they did.  Then, they could have released the rest as B-sides.

Also, if Axl had laid down the vocals on UYI in 88 instead of 90, it would have added so much to the songs.  But that is just my opinion.

How can you overproduce a song like 'Coma' ?  ;)

You can't, but i hate the count to eight on perfect crime

Slash wanted to make a raw album, you can do that with axl voice...
however. with give more producing it gets more listener friendly. You can sit down wiht headset amd listen to details in the music. Appetite has a right here right now in your face (yes right next door to hell too), but the illusions has more of that headset friendly approach. Appetite makes you wanna put the music up high and crank the fuck out of it

I wish i could here these raw tracks........It sounds really rocky

Maybe Slash should release them on the internet so we could compare them and choose...

You can hear a few of them like Don't damn me and Don't Cry on the net.

Man, this is a non-topic if there ever was one.

What you like in songs in term of production is personal taste. When you say over-produced you have to have a reference point which isn't really possible as there is no definition of exactly how much production is correct.

Albums are produced to sound how the band/producer want them to sound. When you hear a song on CD it is the version they think is the best. You either like the song or you don't. A differently produced version wouldn't be Guns N' Roses.

@#$%Muther

i agree with slash and duff.
for example civil war live was more better than uyi2 civil war(i loved civil war from alpine valey)

-Which are both awesome by the way. I love the end of Don't Damn Me, where Axl goes something like "Rock n' roll, everybody in the house! How ya doin' tonight! Alrite!!"
Always cracks me up..

Hmm... I've only heard Don't damn me-demo without Axl singing. Guess I have to search again.

Where do I start. Aah yes. I've made some comments on sounding "dated" explaining the word is just bullshit. It reminded me of the word
"overproduction" which is in the same category too me.

Let's take The Use Your Illusions albums for example. Those albums are great. Realy amazing and the songs on it kicks ass. Yet there are people who call it "overproduced". That is not true at all. So what.... There are allot of "bells and whistles" added to songs such as Coma and November Rain. But the same thing goes for Appetite For Destruction. Listen closely and you hear lots of similar stuff too. The UYI are meant to be what they are. It is complicated, it is different, it is brilliant and it rocks.

To the people who are afraid of "overproduction" on Chinese Democracy have gotten it all wrong. You see. From Appetite for Destruction album to the Use Your Illusions was a big step. They sound so different and each cary different beauty on them.

From the UYI to Chinese Democracy will be a big step too. We've all heard Madagascar, The Blues and Chinese Democracy for examples of what the direction might be. Fact is that those songs are as fresh and interesting as possible. You ever heard something similar to those? I didn't. Yes, there are resemblings from The Use Your Illusions and Appetite. Resemblings to the writing skills of Axl Rose. Not only lyrically but also melody-wise. It will be exciting and new both for Axl and for the fans. It is Guns N' Roses. Just wait and see.

Yeah only problem is they were fresh tracks when previewed but it's been so long they ain't 'new' or 'fresh' to die-hard GN'R fans and i know people always say they will sound different in the studio but they won't be that different, if the album ended up being a 12 track then we've effectively heard a 1/4 already

Ok, so you not believe in Axl's word about the 18 tracks and 10 extra-tracks. That's fine. But why don't you believe that it's not that wise to put out 1/4 of the record that we, die-hard fans, already know? You know, Axl didn't wanted to play any other new songs just for save the interesting in the record. So, I guess we'll hear as much new songs as possible.
About what Dont Try Me wrote: I think you're 100% right. It's not like all the producers would let Axl (if he would be that stupid) overproduce the stuff to make the album sound like shit. It's not like he's trying to make the same Illusions sound. He wants to move on, and this is not easy at all. I guess he's trying to put a record that will be cool to both die-hard old gnr fans and all the open-minded and younger fans. Maybe that's why he just didn't played Silk Worms in 2002 and Rhiad in the USA tour (btw, Rhiad rocks!).

True.  I actually think the production is about right, I might just tinker with one or two things if I could.

My only problem with the production on all GN'R albums is that they're very 'bass-light'.  I know for sure that Duff is playing some heavy bass but it doesn't come out due to production or mixing or whatever.  I would love to hear remasters if the band could agree on someone to do it right, but that won't happen.  I wouldn't be too keen on some record company bloke helping himself and changing it without the band input.

Production wise i think the albums are all perfect.

They all sound great to me.

Yeah i think all the albums are produced perfectly and to suit the style of the albums

no complaints from me either... they all rock as they are... even Spagetti....

Yeah spaghetti has a really good vibe to it 2

And again.... Can someone tell me, what that overproducion thing is?? What does it mean? It's too loud, to quiet, wrong volume balance, or too many instruments, toi crazy instruments or too many computer filters?? What? Was OH MY GOD overproduced? In my opnion it was produced bad, that's all.

If it comes to old material, I used to it's sound. But for example Appetitte, well, I like the remastered version from GH. Use Your... are just fine, thought I would sound even better if it was recoreded nowadays.


Cheers

MoonMax

 :smoking:

The UYI songs are not "overproduced".They are just some very elaborated pieces of music. Is Led Zeppelin "overproduced"???? Is Pink Floyd overproduced??? They both have complicated music,with lots of weirn noises and special effects,but they sound magnificent.

It's not really that surprising that we as fans are happy with the production on UYI because if we didn't like the albums then we wouldn't be fans.

The complaint that UYI was over produced was a consistant one in all the reviews that I read just after UYI was released.  This wasn't just one hack journalist with a grudge, it seemed to be the prevailing opinion of most of the reviewers in the mainstream music press.

I do worry about CD being over produced.  Axl is an amazingly talented guy but the problem that Axl has is that he doesn't seem to know when to stop.  Someone once said that a great album isn't finished, it is abandoned.  

It's never going to happen but ideally Axl should pick up the phone and call Izzy.  He would be an asset in writing any songs that need work and he would probably help speed up the whole process.

Problem is that just about every music critic IS a hack journalist, and out of those most do hold a grudge against Axl.

And why should hack journalists' opinions count any more than fans' opinions? Clearly there were a lot more music fans who liked UYI than there were critics who thought it was "overproduced", and GN'R rightfully did what the fans wanted. Why should they do music for the "mainstream music press" ? If that's what you want, you have plenty of options in all the hip bands who like to 'follow the post-Nirvana progression.' GN'R was always about the fans. The reason we love them is cuz they don't give a fuck about the critics and the "mainstream music press." I don't see why this should change.

Whatever! I'm still waiting for a post that tells me what the whole "overproduced" thing is about.

Overproduction could be many things...for example "The Blues".  We could very well see the remarkable Rio III version saturated with sappy synths for the album rendition.  Many would call this unnecessary, and downright detrimental, addition overproduction.

The same could go for a song like "Perfect Crime".  What should have been a dirty, raw rocker is glistening with cheesy effects.  Or overproduction could be manifested in overly clean/effected guitars or instruments.  It could be vocals drenched with effects (the dreaded of all - the vocoder).  It could be keyboards or horns.  It could simply be sound effects, or superflous vocals ("Knockin' On Heavens Door," "Breakdown").

That's just your opinion, but I respect that.

Yes, it his his opinion but he is right as well. Therefor "overproduction" is just a fairy tail which is 100% opinion based.

The problem I have with the production of the UYI's is that they sound way too clean.  

Listen to AFD.  The instruments and Axl's vocals are just much more raw.  That separated GNR from most artists of the time.  Then they took a step back with the UYI's and its cleaned-up production.  All the sudden GNR sounded like they hired Poison's or Cinderella's production team to do their next album.

What is ironic is that when UYI came out, the trend was shifting back toward rawer production (with Nirvana and Pearl Jam leading the way)--something Axl/GNR had done years ago but abandoned with the Illusions.

Yeah, I already see: I'm with my 86 years old (I have 17), my grandchildrens with his 25 years old, buying the Chinese Democracy...Will be exciting hear, or try to hear (I will have 86 years old...must be deaf...) the whole album...I CAN'T WAIT!!! :hihi:

I think that the production is 100% for being a record recorded <1991. Everything including Matt's drumming is perfect. Maybe Izzy's guitar should have been a bit louder, but that was more Axl's fault?

Overproducion: well, listen to RIR version of The Blues and thw 2002 version... expect for the Robin Finck solo, great in 2002, the song sounded really better in RIR3 (less production?)

About the song sound "dated": I agree with who thinks that good songs just can't be dated... listen Led Zep today, is i dated? NO!!!

It sounds like you're just regurgitating garbage that you read about or that somebody even less informed than yourself told you about. Cuz you certainly don't know what you're talking about when you say UYI sounds like they hired Poison's or Cinderella's productions team. Listen to Look What The Cat Dragged In. Its production is much worse than that of Appetite For Destruction. It comes down to how much money you have to produce an album. Of course UYI has more elaborate production than AFD. They were the biggest band in the world at the time, so they could afford to have better production than they were able to afford during Appetite. You can't expect a band to be stuck in its garage days forever. If you think GN'R has spent $13 mil to produce a raw garage band record, then prepare to be severely disappointed with Chinese Democracy. CD's production will be so clean, it'll make UYI's sound like a cesspool.

I still can't believe I'm into this discussion. People are trying to say anything but we are still talking different languages. Cause nobody explained what da hell is that overprudcion case. Maybe let's make one term. I start from myselfe

Overpruducion - the music material where there was more enginery-computers,mixers,filters etc. then human involvment.

Is it anything more?


If it comes to other songs which can't be dated, well, I think that it's more about the time, then songs themselfes. It's not only the song how it was written and all that stuff, but also the moment it start to be popular, producion, market, trends, generaly society, and mostly - the artist.

Cheers

MoonMax :smoking:

POPmetal:

Clearly my point went over your head (or through it- considering its hollow).  UYI is simply too crisp sounding.  I'm listening a couple songs off Flesh and Blood by Poison at this moment.  Pure gloss rock.  In terms of how clean it sounds, it's miles apart from AFD, yet right in line with UYI...


No.  I'm guessing Nirvana had plenty of money when they put out In Utero.  Did they clean up the production because they were the biggest band in the world?  No, it was kept it in line with their signature style on Nevermind.

It's natural to progress and strive to improve your production. Bruce Fairbrian (who is most famous for producing Aeromsth's Pump and Get a Grip) did Flesh and Blood and it shows. It's hands down their best album and a vast improvement over Look What the Cat Dragged in.


Yea, and that's why it sucks! In Utero can't even compare with Nevermind. I know of even big Nirvana fans who say it was a step back for music. It's so fake and contrived cuz everyone knows they had money to put in it, but instead put out a poorly produced piece of shit. Then it became a trend and that's why most of pop rock music has sucked ever since. I'm praying CD changes this again and knocks some sense into the industry. Poor production does not equal good music. Just listen to Poison's last album (Hollyweird) its production is even rawer than Appetite, or Nevermind, or Look What the Cat Dragged In, but it's still one of the worst records EVER made. Bottom line is: you can have good songs and poor production and the album can kick ass, you can have good songs and great production and the album will kick even more ass, but if you don't have the good songs, you can over or under produce all you want and your album is still gonna reek. It's the songs that matter most. Having good production is only the icing on the cake.

Madagascar is the best new song.  If the "overproduction" of this album produces songs that sound like this, it will be worth the wait.

right on man, right on!!  : ok:

for the year ive been on this board the word "overproduced" often comes up and it drives me insane

people sayin cD will suck cause it will be overproduced blah blah blah

but the people bitchin about CD being overproduced will be the same people that are currently bitching about COntraband being under produced


im a musician and i have no fuckin clue exactly what overproduced means, how the fuck can u over produce anything?

st anger was raw old school metal peopl ehated it

contraband is a raw rock record people complain

so what the hell do u consider something just right?


CD is coming soon i can feel it! by christmas we will have it! and its gonna kick ass! this board will be mayhem!

I dont think you can "overproduce" an album either....

They mix and produce the album untill they get the sound the artist wants to have...

If you dont like the sound on the album then you dont like the album but its not "overproduced"

Metallica wanted St Anger to sound that way....  I personnally love that album...

The production on that album is consistant with the sound and type of music Metallica were trying to play....

people who say that the "cd will be overproduced" are just talking out of thier asses....

Production isnt about trying to change the sound.. its about trying to bring the sound to your speakers in the way the band wants you to hear it...  

you either like it or you dont... its not "over produced"



 

Adding a lot of production (such as vocal/musical effects) can turn people off.  For example, I love "The Blues" as a song.  I love the lyrics, the music, everything about the actual song.  However, I hate the synths on the 2002 tour version.  If the sappy whining synth line, and then theres  the big bright synths...If those synths find their way onto the studio version, Im sure people will point to that as overproduction.  Its certainly a personal opinion - If you love hard rock music with voice vocoder effects, keyboards, synths, etc., then you might not believe in overproduction.  But fans of hard rock in general probably dont care for that kind of stuff, as hard rock is traditionally a genre thats light on production effects.

Thats my main concern with the album - synthesizers.  But Marco Beltramis involvement (concerning orchestral arrangements), however, is intriguing and will hopefully lead to something remarkable.

hey Booker,...Do you ever watch the TV Show "The Practice"

Marco did the Theme song for that TV show... I had never heard of the man untill i learned of his involvment in CD.

I watch "the practice" all the time and when i saw his name in the credits i started to listen in to the opening theme a bit more..

What does the theme sound like? Anything interesting?

i think the blues version at rio was the best

not cause of the synths but because of the tempo and how axl sang the beginnng verses


i want u guys that like straight r and r to make me a promise though

when CD comes out dont judge it as GNR afd straight rock n roll

judge it as the new experimental sound and style axl is shooting for

well my opinion on this is that a cd can and cant be overproduced.....take St.anger for example...i personally like that cd...but people complained that it was overprouced and stuff...thats the way they wanted it to sound....and if a song is overproduced it can take away from the lyrics..etc...and it will turn people away...jsut my opinion

As the "overproduced" tag drives you insane, the "experimental" or "progressing/evolving" connotation makes me puke.

Nothing we've heard so far from that band falls under any of the above terms.

Hopefully the unheard material will fall under these terms, but until then,
forget it.


PS.  If someone even discusses quotes in Maddy as any bellcow to start some musical "change the face of music" revolution I will again, puke.

When I wrote that CD might overproduced I meant that if you spend too much time on an album it can lose its power. You want to make the perfect record, you play everything note by note, and then with the help of computers you match together it with nanosecond precision... There was a pianist, I don't remember his name, who spent years just to make one record. He played very short pieces to make it perfect, and then matched together, then he realised, it ain't perfect, so he played even smaller parts, and in the end he almost played only notes and then took the computers to match it. The record was aful, it lost every human aspect: while others' records were full of mistakes, but they played it really live, the perfectionist pianist's record missed the emotional aspect, it was like he recorded music for robots.

I don't say that CD will be an album for robots, but Tommy's interview where he mentioned Axl's minute preciosity made me worry again. Fuck, there are mistakes on AFD and UYI, mistakes on records of Led Zep, Queen, not to mention The Beatles. But those were genuine albums.  :peace:

I think CD will be judged on whether the music is good or not...

It will, of course, be compared to the older stuff, but in the end.. what will matter though... is whether it's good or not.

I agree 100% Us that believe in Axl will enjoy it if the material is good.
But there is always gonna be some dickhead that compares it to either old material or Contraband

its actually pretty cool... I know the season is over for the show but you can still catch it on Dish Network in the mornings.. I always listen to it and try to immagine how it would be used in a Rock Song with Axl singing...  Thats really the onley place i heard of this guy and that was by accident just coz he scored the intro to a favorite TV show of mine..

but yeah its kind of got a electric sound that goes up and down, up and down... its sooo hard to describe sounds but if you ever see the "the practice" check it out you can see the dudes name during the opening credits...

People HAVE to compare it against Axl's previous work.  Because otherwise there is no discussion.  Is it good?  Yes or No... there... thats the whole discussion... boring.   If we compare to his old stuff, we can see the direction he took and we can see what Axl has been moving to/from musically.  If we don't compare CD to AFD or UYI, we can't see how Axl has progressed or moved back (either way)

i can almost guarantee one thing though after reading the contraband reviews

i guarantee alot of us will hate chinese democracy upon first listen

first listen we will probably listen with our mouths open wondering "what the fuck"

but then we will listen and listen and it will become fuckin awesome

i am hoping and praying that axl doesnt have a mtv.com stream thing b4 the cd comes out

im so glad i only listened to about a minute of each song cause i think that ruins cds

nothing like buying a cd reading the lyrics while u blast it full of blast makes the cd experience all together better


i understand the overproduced argument as u dont want it to sound manufactured and robotic and stiff but i dont think that will happen

sorry falcon about the experimental, i didnt mean it as like new age sounding shit

i just meant i dont want everyone to be expecting welcome to the jungle 2004 type songs, im hoping for some diversity, i want something absolutely new sounding and unique

Listen to the opening guitar for Chinese Democracy on the Boston promo. It sounds so clean, its hard to believe its a guitar.

Having heard some demos, I think I see now why Axl has been through so many different producers.

TWAT is a perfect example of what I worry may be a problem on CD. It is an outstanding song, but it seems like he has almost too much going on with all the synthesizers, drums, 4 guitars and other layering effects. There are points it almost sounds "cluttered" where there is like 10 things going on at once.

I know it is just a demo, but I think it may be a valid concern. There is a fine line between just enough background stuff and way too much. He appears to want to push that line, which I personally like, but I fear overproduction will be a major problem with many of the new songs.

Well, of course its gonna be very "pollished" what do you expect for 6 years work and $13,000,000??!!

AT this point I trust Axl to get it right-he must be reasonably satisfied if hes played it for people.

We only have a 128 kbs MP3 of the song, the audio quality is therefore terrible.

And therefore it's unreasonable to criticize the mix.

I agree, but I also think you would agree that there is a distinct difference between "polished" and "totally over the top." I just don't want to see this album tanked by critics and the general publc who say he "jumped the shark" and went totally over the top. Which we all could agree is something Axl struggles with keeping under control.

What like Linkin' Park? They are possibly the most over produced band I've ever heard

I think we'll get a slight "dirty" feel, industrial, grunge, rock & metal all rolled together. The mix will be sweet, don't fret : ok:

Personally, ?I think the mix that we're hearing is probably demos that were
given to Richard when he joined the band. This is pure speculation, but in
all the demos, the rhythm guitars are cranked up way too much. ?If he was
trying to learn his parts, it would make sense for him to get CD's with his
parts cranked up to play along/study. ?

Another tidbit that I'm curious about and that has been mentioned is the
possibility of CD being 5.1. ?I didn't think too much of it when it was first
mentioned but I came across an old issue of Recording Magazine which
has an interview with Roy Thomas Baker (Queen, G'NR for a bit) and there
were two focusses of the article: Guns 'N Roses and converting Queen's
songs to 5.1 sound. ?The article mainly focussed on how RTB was converting
to 5.1 sound, but it would make sense that if RTB was really into the 5.1
sound, he'd suggest it to Axl...

Just some thoughts...

seems like Axl,s vocals are a little buried in the mix of everything at times.  The music is absolutely fantastic, though remember the mixes we've heard is not the finished product. Hope they are called Demos for a reason.

Ive heard people say that theyve pushed the music back abit and the vocals become stronger and the song already sounds better, on these tracks (as they are demos) it kinda sounds like you can hear axls vocal track being played against the music, im sure Axl can sort that out. Also, Axl's voice is still gritty and rock n roll, they cant over produce on that, it will give the music some edge however flat it is

It would be sad if after all of this time and effort CD sounds like St Anger :hihi:

I think it is too early to discuss production and sound details.

The demos (hopefully) give a good impression of the material and sound direction, but nothing more.

The demos are unmixed and unmastered, so it's natural that the levels will be all over the place.

The levels aren't so much the issue. The issue is making the songs complex and difficult without going overboard with everything he is working with. Trying to craft a song with 4 guitars, orchestra's, piano's and synthesizers.....not to mention we need to hear Axl singing is a difficult task. If not handled properly it can leave the listener overwhelmed in a bad way.

 : ok:

I just can't wait for the studio versions of Madagascar, IRS and TWAT...

Holy crap, they will be orgasmic...!

Overproduction really is a lack of cohesion in recording/mixing.  AFD sounded great, and it was pretty heavily produced - but they did it well and the mix kicked ass.  UYI sounded over-produced cause the mix was kinda shitty and the recording/mix didn't always fit with the flow of the songs. 

I'm going to just wait until I hear the album to say anything.. For all I know these songs were in their second stage and that could have been 5 stages ago after redone parts...

I do agree that say oh my god in rio is better thent eh actual studio tune

Definetly - The demo of NR is better than the album version, at least Axls voice is. Axls voice sounds greatest on the accoustic side of Lies and that was recorded in an afternoon

in my opinion underproduction wouldn't work for gn'r in 2006, appetite was raw but it had a very definite production to it.

I am listening to Contraband right now really loud.  I must say, the new GNR songs are awesome, but at the same time make Contraband sound better.  GNR songs are beautiful, well structured, very busy, great vocals (Twat, Better), but the music of Contraband is pretty dam hard and in your face.  Matt's drumming really stands out.  I am not comparing CD to Contraband, but am saying, so far, that VR seems to be a much harder, more rocking band.  That does not mean they are better, but the chemistry between Matt, Duff, and Slash is like a well oiled machine that I have yet to hear from the new GNR material.  I love Twat, and think I will love Better, but, take away vocals from both, and I give the nod to VR. 

I found the following quote from the Trunk interview very interesting

"I think there are all types of different ways to do it, I mean you can definitley overproduce it and make it too perfect that it's a nightmare and it makes it sterile."

I recall several debates on this forum about 'overproduction' - some regarding whether or not 'overproduction' exists at all. I guess the person who sparked those debates agrees with those of us who feel it's a very real and possible thing.

Furthermore, it's encouraging to hear Axl holds this view, as it was something concerning the fate of CD that I was worried about

Axl: I think that there all types of different ways to do it, I mean you can definitely overproduce it and make it too perfect that it's a nightmare and it makes it sterile. Or you can use a little bit of everything. You can push it every way possible using the technology and doing it, everything you can do. We.... the only thing you have heard has been the leaks but there's different things where its just like.... I don't like to stretch things with Pro Tools or anything like that. I don't like that kind of cheating...


I think that sums up everything most of us have been worrying about.  Hopefully....  ;)

Yes, it sounds very promising.

Where?  :o

UYI was imho overproduced. I have heard the demos of Nov Rain, Dont Cry, the Garden, Bad Ob and a few more and they actually sound better. A rock album sounds better when it is raw. Nevermind by Nirvana is a good example of a rock album thats been overproduced.

However I am not concerned about the new album being overproduced because electronic/synth music sounds better with top production - you dont really get raw "Death in Vegas" style production. I am convinced that the production on the new album will be appropriate.

In G&R world, any production is good production :peace:

I just downloaded the illusions outakes. ?And some of that shit sounds a million times better than on illusions. ?For instance Don't Damn Me, and the Garden of Eden. ?I'd rather listen to those than the album personally.

^
Where can I find them?

seedler.org search for guns n' roses

Real quick appetite wasn't a completly unpolished album.  I think you could say that there are parts on appetite that were over produced.  If you listen to "paradise city" for ex. at the beginning the vocals are overdubbed all over the place.  It's cool but super overproduced.  I don't think production is a bad thing at all.  I really love the illusion albums but i do have to say there are parts were I don't understand why these parts are in there.

Ex.
1.  Knockin on heavens door-the whole phone conversation that del james did?

2.  Pretty Tied up- All of that talking shit in the song.  "Cool ranch dressing"

3.  Breakdown- The part at the end where axl does that spoken word thing, "there goes the challenger being chased .........The demi god..........the last american hero."

If anyone can explain any of this i would really be grateful.



Hatts