Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I was reflecting the other day on what life and the world were like before September, 11, 2001. Something most definitely has changed since 9/11. It's more than just debates on TV or something you read about in the paper. I'm talking about perception, life for the ordinary civilians, otherwise completely removed from violence they see on TV. In small towns and cities, where most people live a life completely free of violence. Ever since 9/11, something has changed, in the air, it's kind of hard to explain. But things are not as they were. It's rather hard to articulate.

I know what you mean.  Though some people don't seem affected by it.  But for me, like many people, it still plays into some of my thoughts and decisions.  Like when I went to Disneyland for Thanksgiving, there was a part of me questioning if it was smart to go at such a busy time, would it be more of a target etc.  I never would have thought of that 5 years ago. 

When 9/11 happened, I remember watching the news coverage and holding my daughter, who was about 1 at the time.  I just remember being so sad that the world she would grow up in would be forever changed by this tragedy. 

Sometime in 02, a group of middle-eastern men got on the subway and were in my car. At the next stop I got off and got on another car. I feel ashamed for doing that, especially since I would like to think of myself as being so enlightened and forward thinking. But at that moment, this paranoia got hold of me. I never would have done that before 9/11. But with those pointless stupid code yellow, code orange homeland security levels, and out of fear, I was acting irrational and racist. 

Well living in Canada I cant comment really but since 9/11 as a guy with long hair and a beard goin' on, I get alot of second glances like, is that guy a druggie/hippie/terrorist or what? People's prejudices, and misconceptions have definately gone through the roof since 9/11, some warranted, some not so much.

I think before 9/11 most of America had a perception of being invincible.  That the horrible stuff we see on TV would never happen on American soil.  9/11 brought us back to earth and made us realize that bad shit can happen here too.  Kinda like when a drunk driver finally gets busted.  He thinks it'll never happen to him, then when it does he realizes it can happen to anyone.  It'll always be there in the back of your mind in certain situations.  I had a situation similar to yours, RichardNixon.  I was on an airplane and a couple mid-eastern guys were sitting in the seats in front of me.  I'll admit it made me kinda uneasy.  I know there's no excuse for thinking that way, since these dudes were just regular guys minding their own business.  But I don't know if those kinda thoughts will ever go away.  It sucks for all the mideastern people in this country who are just as American as the next person.

One of the first things I wished that never happened was the 9/11/01 tragedy. I remember it happened like the week before we moved out of our home we had for like 14 years, it was the best memory of my childhood. Yeah the world has changed so much since then , it was a very depressing time for everyone.

I don't see any difference - terrorists still blow chunks out of our capital as they always have, America still rampages around the world and pollution just gets worse

Same as ever

Theres a big difference.
It was a wake up call.
And some of us woke up.
Others choose to think it wont happen again and being on the offensive is wrong.

If there is another attack, Im thinking if it hit the Democratic National Convention how poetic that would be.
But life doesnt work that way.
Would probably be another random group of people including those for trying to prevent it.

same as ever.

the only difference is that *we* - the rich- got hit real bad.
it wasn't about that african kid anymore.

i have to admit that people got dumber than ever after that tragic event.

So........you are advocating an attack on America?

TRAITOR.

No, Shades, I would not call that thinking.  Yeehaww lets kill alll those who disagree!

If it could have doubled Halliburton's stock they would have found a way to do it, trust me.

No one (at least on this forum) is advocating that the terrorist attack America - well, save Izzy because it works for their culture.  The point Shades was trying to make (and I agree with) is that when anothr attack happens on American soil, and it will, wouldn't it be poetic justice if the attack was on the DNC?  The people who have done least to aide the war on terror and whose staunchest supporters (and I use that somewhat loosely since the DNC would denounce many of you extremists) have faught every proactive and prudent initiative to prevent those who would attack America from getting in - all under the defense of racism.  Kind of like the tragedy that occured in liberally ran New Orleans.  When they refused to prepare and execute evacuation plans, rather than fess up and accept responsibility everyone blamed Bush.  Sadly the same thing would happen if those bastards attacked America again, Bush would be to blame for it all in your minds.  :no:

Kindly find where i said that.

Now when i ridicule your nonsense, you can bet its personal

i bolded those words incase people thought I was saying 9/11 was the best memory, my bad.

Izzy you'll never be able to ridicule me becuase you support racism and sexism and atrocious human rights just as long as the culture excersising them isn't western.? The cruelty and suffering minorities go through in these nations is nothing short of the same terrorism they wish to bring to America.

I refer to this thread and my reply to your comment that you never refuted - well because it appears from other comments you've made and your silence that you endorse it:? http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=23842.msg419910#msg419910

Stop telling people what "they think" or "must think" because they don't care to speak to an imbecile.

Shades is a traitor because he condones an attack on US citizens, and so are you.

Hey Richard I know what u are saying and Dont feel bad, I did the same thing a month or two ago and I feel like such a dipshit.

I was at the gym working out and afterwards I got into the Sauna.

This islamic lookin dude got in the sauna with me and the said something bout leaving his shorts in his trunk.

He left something in the sauna with me, it was a towel with some sort of bulge under it.

Needless to say I thought i was getting suicide bombed for a minute.

I feel like such a dumbass now, but I let my imagination get the best of me.


Shades that was the most idiotic thing Ive ever read, seriously sayin shit like that isnt cool at all.

I dont know how much Dems are sabotaging the war, i dont really endorse any Democrat who tries to say we are DEFEATED.

I think that is an idiotic statement and not good for the morale of the troops.

I am a democrat believe it or not but I dont support Murtha, I sure as hell dont support Howard Dean *dems need to drop this guy if they want to win* and I dont support John Kerry, Mr Opinion but no solution guy.

Thing about Kerry is, He could be telling the 100 percent truth but to me he comes off sounding like a bitter,sore loser. that of course is my opinion.

Sure the death of 3000 innocent people was a tragedy. But it was a wakeup call, still the people did not wake up, but let their president instrumentalise that event to proceed doing the things that provoked 9/11.

It's sad. Every day countless people get killed, a lot of them due to the fault of the US government, and nobody cares. But when a bunch of Americans get killed it is hyped up as if it was the worst tragedy that ever happened. It wasn't.

9/11 was like America being Scrooge and Bin Laden being the ghosts. Face it people, it is sad what is happening, the ideologic terror and all, but it is just the ghosts the US called.

And with what the US government calls "the war against terrorism" it won't get any better. It will get worse.

I'm not a what some here would call a "fuckin' liberal", I'm just counting the facts.


/lastroots

I'm ridiculing your offensive views, not you as a person.


I'm leaving that to the moderators to deal with. That's actually libel.


I replied to that post about three posts down the list! ::)

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=23842.msg420023#msg420023

The stuff you write makes me ashamed to be seen talking to you.

my two cents:

If anything, for me, 9\11 has made me live more "in the moment." The only thing I think it has changed for me is that when I see planes in the air overhead, I follow them a lot longer...It really hasn't curtailed travel or made me look at foreign folks any differently....I figure I'm going to live my life and if it's my time to go, well so be it...I mean, everytime you lay your head down to go to bed, there's no guarantee you will see morning...just my take on things

Please don't think i'm having a go at you,

I imagine many people echo your position - and yet isn't it strange that the odds of being injured in a terrorists attack are 1 in millions, and yet the odds of being hit by a car are significantly lower - and yet its the terrorist attack people worry about more as they leave the house!

Good luck with the libel claim Izzy, sounds like more crying because you got caught.

Here is your exact quote in your response that I later asked for verification on and you obviously did not provide it:
 
So I stand by my earlier statements; you support and condone violent behavior, sexism and racism because it "works" for their culture.? Keep trying to argue a way around it Izzy.? I really don't want to dwell on the issue, I've already proven that you're so "open-minded" that you support the antithesis of your supposed human rights views.

Sadly this is true, and what I have said all along. If we really want to stop terror, we must look at our governments actions over the years, our involvement in the middle east and address those facts. Address them with absolute honesty, which we are not willing to do. Most Americans have no friggin' clue really why we are hated. It is not because "we're free" either.

I have?


and...?

I'm highlighting your judgemental nature while refusing to pass judgement on another religion - thats me being ''caught''? :hihi:

I'd assuming the red neck trailer park community you came from would be outraged if a muslim condemned the way Christians conduct their religious affairs - but its okay for you to have a go at them?



Lol, are u telling me what my views are? :hihi:

Lets have a look at what u've been saying



U failed to understand what i meant to the extent you had to ask for verification on it and now proceed to tell me what i meant to say!


Sage advice from a person that curiously enough knows what i'm thinking better than i do ::)


I'd imagine not as your running low on anything approaching correct grammar let alone an argument


Proven? My human rights views?

I'm still waiting for that proof, any time u find it, let me know mmmmk?

You gotta be kidding me.
Its our fault that terrorists hate us?
So we are resposible for 9/11 in that light.

only a real nut job would say something like that

I think the 9/11 tragedy tried giving us a chance to treat each other equal and realize that prejudice and hate is wrong but people still fail to do that in this country. :-\

Although the government can make mistakes, thousands of innocent people did not deserve to die!!!! >:(

I do agree with SLC on this, After 9/11 I think for the first time in maybe forever, our country banded together and became a very caring,united country.

If not for the War in Iraq, I believe that brotherhood wouldve continued and our country would be a better place right now.

disclaimer
* I don't agree with the war however I feel we now have an obligation to the Iraqi people to see it through so therefore my statement isnt contradictory with past posts*

Hmm, I don't know. I think the goodwill would have run its course...

It's easy to forget, but most of the world were supporting USA at that point. As well as the war in Afghanistan.

Most of that support has disppeared since.....



/jarmo

Richard Nixon,
Don't feel bad, honey ... My sister was seeing this guy who was Middle Eastern-looking around 9/11, and I was terrified of him.  He'd come inside the house, and I'd slip out the back.  I feel really kinda guilty about that now, cause he was actually a nice guy.   :-[

You have been so bent out of shape since being labeled a racist and bigot. You have started threads about it, bring it up all the time and obviously are upset by it. What is even more obvious is how desperate you are to try and pin somebody on the "other side" as a racist, or sexist, whatever....You have been foaming at the mouth to find one little thing you can pounce on and whip into a big frenzy.

Very Bill O'reillyesque! Very good. You have latched onto one tiny thing and created yet another straw man to tear down, hopefully taking all the focus away from your pathological lies and racist drivel you and your buddies fill the board up with. The only thing is that your posts reek of spin, deflection and shame. You are not fooling anybody here. Everybody knows who condones violence, hatred, bigotry and wraps themselves warm and cozy in one lie after another. And it ain't Izzy............

You're hogging up the bandwidth with this slop & swill.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. We are not going to get a different result with the Iraq war. We need to be proactive and not through violence. We need to look at our role in the middle east (over the last 50 plus years) and see how we have used that region for our gain while placing madmen in charge. The middle east is nothing more than a group of thugs which we have put in (or out) or power as we see fit over the years.

We then turn around and fund the bombs and bullets to kill their children via our client Israel. Our military aid to Israel is how many billions? You want to stop terrorists, then it is time to look in the mirror and address our role in that region. Our funding of violence, our essential creation of terror states, and our hypocrisy are leading up to our demise.

I think you're on to something....duhhh
So we funded terrorist states.
So we armed states that are using these arms and therefore people hates us because of it.
We support Isreal so people hate us.
Thats why we change leaders every 4 years.

So you've identified the problem.
Did you ever think of just maybe coming up with a 'plan' to fix the problem?
Of course not.
meanwhile training camps accross the region were turning out men who will strap tnt to their torsos or fly planes into skyscrapers.
A short term solution was needed while you ponder the long term.
So we dont DIE. come on man, wake up.

I did come up with a plan to fix the problem and posted it. Just because you are not intelligent enough to read or comprehend what I write it is not my problem.

So quit your lying already; you guys all lie through your teeth, just like your fascist leader W.

Thanks. The whole 911 thing brought out some things inside of us that we may not be very proud of.

speaking of 9/11, I just noticed something weird. You've seen the movie Armageddon, right?

Well in the beginning, when the asteroids start attacking New York City, the character played by the black actor walking his dog yells "Saddam Husein is bombing us man!" Next they show the twin towers in flames!

3 years later, something very similar happens!

A thread from the days when political discussion was still allowed.  How I miss them.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=911+loose+change

It makes a pretty good case doesn't it.  ;D

Did you see the entire thing?

I finished watching it with my wife tonight.

It was amazing. Even my wife who thinks I'm nuts thought it was very well done and researched.

Hats off to that guy. I mean really.

Really.

Yeah, I had heard of the video before on various other sites.  When I clicked on the link I watched the first little bit to get an idea of what it was about.  I started to skim through it a little bit because I had a bunch of stuff to do, but I got caught up in some of the footage and ended up watching pretty much the whole video (I probably skipped over 5-10 minutes of it).

It is definetaly much more convincing than those flash animations with heavy metal music asking in bold capital letters "WHERE IS THE WRECKAGE FROM THE PLANE?"

It would be tough to refute some of the claims, especially the science-based ones.

I thought the research that went into it was very impressive. To say the least.

It would be one thing if it were a couple of unanswered questions. But it is one after the other; they just keep coming.

The film of the plane crashing into the Pentagon was taken and not released.

The way the buildings fell. (Including history of other buildings that burned for up to 24 hours and never fell. A plane hitting a building and not causing a collapse.)

The put options placed on airlines right before the attack. That was a real pisser.

The biggy was they claimed the black boxes were not found for the planes that hit the WTC (while another report contradicted this). Yet miraculously the terrorist's passport (made of paper) was found in the remains of the WTC.

On and on and on.

I remember the popular mechanics article that blasted these theories. Funny thing it turned out the writer's cousin was head of the homeland security. Go figure.

The inconsistancies in the "official" story of 9-11 are too numerous for one to believe it all.  Ever read "Operation Pearl"?

http://physics911.net/pearl.htm

I'd recommend checking out the rest of the site as well, especially on the use of cell phones on airplanes.

Yea, the addressed this as well. That cell phones could not have worked at 32000 ft. I told my wife that if it was one odd thing, then maybe I could dismiss it. But it was one thing after another. Too much.

I'll check you site out too.

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main

this one makes me go hmmm, they can collect human dna, but the plane was vaporized?

You guys read too much conspiracytheory.com.   Out of curiosity, how many of you claim to have been abducted by UFOs?

Am I the only one who hasn't really been affected by 9/11?  Sure, the impact has been heard around the world, but the only thing that really happened to me is that I'm not huge on travelling to America now, because I know that the potential for terrorist attacks still exists down there.  I don't really consider that to be a great loss though, I've already travelled down there a few times.

Watch loose change and then join the conversation.

Even right wing blowhards I know have many questions after watching this movie.

Thanks.


Well really, the potenital for "terror" exists anywhere really.

No, you're not the only one Backslash, I'm not really affected by it much either.

But, that's cause I'm all that way out in the west in the heart of utah.

But SLCPunk is right, terror can happen anywhere and at anytime.

Well to me, America has a greater potential for terror than Canada. ?We don't really have any enemies. ?I guess it's because we don't really play an active role in what goes on in the rest of the world.  And certainly, if a terrorist wants to cause a huge fuss, they'll hit bigger targets like New York and L.A., not Winnipeg and Halifax.  I'm not saying that terrorism can't happen here, it's just that it seems like it's more likely to happen where it has happened before.

I sort of disagree with that. I think that they'll go after targets that were less hit than the ones that already were because there's a lesser chance their plan will fail.

The documentary really was something.

The footage of the seperate explosions going off as the towers came down hasn't be addressed. After watching that it really made me think twice about it all. The story about bombs being placed in the towers looks pretty conclusive.

Well then Canada, yea.


I thought you meant traveling abroad.

Which one did you watch? Loose change?

The thing was that no building, with the exception of those three, had fallen from an impact or fire like that.

Yeah the loose change one.


9/11's "offical" story had a fair few historical firsts.  ::)

Yes it did.

We get emotional caught up in the events and don't really question things.

Not to be redundant, but there were just too many things that were grossly out of place. For instance, why not release the footage that shows the plane flying into the Pentagon? Why only five frames? What is their reason for not releasing it?

How could they identify 184 victims bodies, yet have no remaining pieces of the plane? (with the exception of a rotor, which did not match the plane)

Commercial pilots have also stated that the maneuver would have been virtuously impossible, as it would have caused a high speed stall.

Countless eye witnesses claiming the heard multiple explosions.  Footage provided by: Fox, CNN, NBC etc etc.

The thing you mentioned previously about the cell phones too, "Hey Mom it's Michael Bingham." and "You believe me, don't you Mom?" seemed very suspect.


Plus the Bin Laden looks like a hoax etc etc.


Seriously i just told my brother to watch it and he gave the old "c'mon it's just imagnation" thing but I had about 20 things off the top of my head to mention to him.


Excellent documentary.

I don't believe in Conspiracy therioes but you're scaring me :(

My wife watched the first 5 minutes and was hooked. She never watches things like that. Tell him to give it 15 minutes and he will finish watching it.

The thing about Bin Laden being left handed and the guy in the video using his right hand. Plus wearing the gold ring (which is a no no in Muslim culture according to the video).

The phone calls seemed out of place I agree. "Do you believe me." was beyond strange. The 24 minute phone call where the woman seems completely cool and collected. Not like somebody who just watched her coworker get stabbed to death.


To call this a "conspiracy theory" would be an insult to the victims of 9-11 IMHO.

Grab a seat and watch the movie.

i watched about 15 minutes of it, i'll watch more later.

but why trust the "research" of this thing. i don't see any legitimate sources for all of their claims.

i understand the questions/inconsistencies that have been raised, but does the film come to a conclusion? do they take a guess to explain what they think actually happened, who was responsible, and why?

The film most certainly comes to a conclusion: what was told to us was 1) Not the truth or 2) Not the entire truth 3) If there is nothing to hide, then why does the government continue to hide it?

The filmmaker uses science to dispute many of the claims including quotes from engineers and commercial pilots, and the people who created the steel that was an integral part of the WTC.

Other things are merely questions. Such as : Why were the tapes of the plane hitting the Pentagon never released? Why were they taken by the FBI almost instantly? Why were there no remains of the plane?

Still others were common sense scenarios: Why would a black box be destroyed while the paper passport of the terrorist simply float to the ground?

How long is the movie going to be up on your link, SLC?

so they state that we were lied to, but do not offer a suggestion as to WHY we were lied to, and exactly WHO was in on it.

so i'll ask all the conspiracy theorists on here.....

what do you think the reason would be to orchestrate 911?

and who do you think is responsible....bush? the entire goverment? the CIA?

Watch the movie!

You watched 15 minutes of it and then want to call me a "conspiracy theorist" and then ask me about the remainder of the movie.

The do explain why we were lied to. But I'm not going to sit here and explain the movie if you are going to call names.

Watch it.

Then talk about it.

It is not my link.

They have a website too, with a good sized forum.

Plenty of Q and A there as well.

You should probably dip over there Sandman and ask all your questions (assuming you bother to watch the movie.)

if you're not a conspiracy theorist, don't answer my question. simple as that.

some of the stuff is interesting. just seeing if anyone has offered a potential explanation for the WHO and the WHY.

so if anyone has any thoughts, please share.

There is a who and why.

Watch the movie.

Simple as that.

so your opinion is exactly what this movie fed you. gotcha.

You refer to it as a conspiracy theory on your own site SLC.  Plenty of people try to provide scientific evidence that Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy and even more want to believe it.  The science is there to proove Oswald shot kennedy and there is more than enough evidence to proove that Airplanes flown by Islamic fundamentalists crashed into those buildings. 

Yea, tongue n cheek.

Anybody who knows me, knows that. Especially the people on my board.

Uh....no.

See this is the thing.

I'm asking you to watch the movie and we can discuss it.

How hard is that.

In the time you have been replying you could almost be done with the movie.

The twin towers, yeah... we've seen videos of those planes crashing numerous times. ?How come we haven't seen the video of the plane flying into the Pentagon? ?There isn't "more than enough evidence" for that. ?There were 3-4 videos located around the Pentagon that would've captured the impact, yet they haven't released any of them. ?The 5 frames certainly aren't convincing enough...

I also found it interesting that the lobby of the WTC buildings had so much damage before the buildings collapsed.


Edit - How long has this movie been out for?

To me that was one of the many great things pointed out.

They tried to claim that a fireball traveled over 1000 ft down an elevator. But the engineer said that would have been impossible since the shafts were sealed. IE there was not enough oxygen for fire to travel down the shaft well over 1000 feet.

(This is a good example of two people who have both watched the film and are discussing it.)



Watch the film.



I don't know. I found it a few days back.

Interesting poll on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGQewF340I4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Finfowars%2Ecom%2Farticles%2Fsept11%2Fsheen%5Fshowbiz%5Fsharon%5Fstone%2Ehtm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rINKezJ_EYw&search=alex_jones%20alex%20jones%20charlie%20sheen%20september%2011th

forget the film. i don't care about the film.

can anyone offer a suggestion as to why someone (aside from bin laden) would orchestrate 9-11?

i love a good discussion about conspiracy theories. i've read plenty about how we were lied to about 9-11. but i need motive to take it seriously.

it's two simple questions i'd like to hear opinions on. WHO? and WHY?

yet no one on this board is willing to offer their opinion on this. is it because it sounds ridiculous when you try to explain?   :hihi:

Nope.

I will be glad to discuss it with you if you watch it.

Why would anybody want to discuss a movie with you that you refuse to watch?

I can't imagine anybody being dumb enough to play this game with you.

Anyway, if anybody else wants to talk about it, I'm game. I find it all very intriguing.

I've casually glanced over parts of the film and find most of it to be cirumstancial evidence.  Like Sandman said, provide us with a motive behind it.  I refuse to believe that there are enough evil people in our government to conspire to murder 3000 innocent civilians all in a ruse to get us to invade the middle east.  You people can hate Haliburton and Bush all you want, but if a conspiracy like this had any validity the major networks would be all over it.  Look at how fast Dan Rather jumped at a bullshit story about Bush, let alone if there was an ounce of proof to this claim.  Being cautious of the government and gathering information is a good thing.  But to take it to the extreme and buy into this Alex Jones bullshit is a spit in the face of all those who suffered due to those attacks.  What next?  Are you gonna claim London and Madrid were acts of terror created by their own government too?

You should note CNN just picked this up this last week. You should also note that their poll said that 83 percent agreed that the government covered up facts about 9-11.

http://edition.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/23968.exclude.html

Here is a paper from a Physicist at BYU. Why not email him and tell him how dumb he is.


(Note: If you actually watched the movie you would have a better understanding of what you are trying to argue against. Rather you refuse to watch, yet refute scientists, commercial airline pilots, physicists, engineers, the designer of the WTC, basic theories of physics, scientific fact etc etc.)

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?

By Steven E. Jones

Department of Physics and Astronomy

Brigham Young University

Provo, UT 84602

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

I've watched and read alot of debate on this issue SLC.  I've seen architects and engineers state that what we were told happened, happened and is completely possible.  I've listened to fire chiefs that were there when it went down.  If this movie's claims and suspicions were true, then every Democrat and Republican in Congress are guilty of hiding it and are part of the conspiracy.  This information isn't anything new and I'm sure someone has forwarded this information to people of importance.  If you're willing to believe that everyone in our government is behind this, then you need to begin an armed rebellion and overthrow that corrupt government.

I want to take the implications of your claims further.  I openly admit that I distrust government.  I'm an open conservative-libertarian who does not want the government to keep expanding in power and control.  I advocate (as you all know) the decrease in power and authority our government has.  You and the like on the other hand continue to advocate for more government control over our lives and many of your friends on this board advocate firearm confiscation.  So if our government is really as evil as many of you believe, why do you continue to advocate socialist ideals that increase the span and control of government and argue that anyone outside of govenrment be denied teh means to defend themself?  I find your perception and claims of our government to be a complete logical  contradiciton to the world and model of government you desire less that government be a fascist one (and I know you're certainly not advocating that).  Please explain this to me because my head is starting to hurt even trying to comprehend the implications of your claims.

And you should note that the poll clearly says "This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein."

This would be like me using a poll from Bill O'Reilly.com to justify an opinion I had.

Nobody is claiming the entire body of our government is guilty.

I am not interested in talking about anything else other then this film. Your claims about my political beliefs are false and only brought up to try and discredit me. I did not create this film(s) or theory. I merely have seen what I believe is a great film that should be discussed.

If you refuse to watch the film all the way through, then there is really nothing left to discuss.

If you would like to talk politics and grill me you can, just not on this forum.

I am claiming that if this movie is true (and you do appear to believe it's conclusion is correct) then everyone in government is accountable.

I am not trying to discredit you.? You're a respected poster on this board and nothing I write is going to change that.

I don't want to get into a political argument.? I just want to know how people can argue for bigger government and gun confiscation in one sentence and then claim that government is evil enough to murder 3000 of its own people in another.

It is still a large group of people who believe the government is not being honest. CNN is not a biased news source like OR is.

CNN ran a story with Sheen, and then offered a poll. It's not like the CNN show is a liberal think tank.

83 percent is a big number anyway you look at it. And a Zogby poll said over 50 percent of NYers believed that the government had prior knowledge of 9-11 anyway.

I already told you.

Your assumption of me is false, and has nothing to do with the subject matter.

that CNN poll tells that that people think the government is not 100% honest. well no shit! maybe their next poll will tell us the sky is blue.

if anyone want to discuss that movie, start a new thread. and if i watch it, i'll post in that thread.

this is a 9-11 thread. i posed a simple question. motive. i don't care how crazy or far fetched. i am just curious what people think. i thought people would offer tons of potential motives.

but i guess no one has the balls to post cause they know how stupid it would sound.  :hihi:

If you like to read then check this

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/index.html

you'll see some 'connections'
(this is from a Canadian reputable journalism)



American government... to instil fear and control over its people,? (everytime there is a big event, superbowl, grammys there's a 'high terror' alert), so it can cover up it's involvment with companies linked to terror orginizations.

Whats a coulple thousand lives worth compared to losing billions of dollars in big business and contracts?

All this weird stuff, American seaports being managed by a company based in dubia?, you know how crazy that sounds, how 'paperwork' could easily be tampered with to allow things to be brought in undectected? (nothing against the UAE, but being so close to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other known 'terrorist' hangouts, it makes me wonder why)

(yeah, I've got the balls to sound stupid? :P)

Back to the plane and the Pentagon, why wasn't the grass distubed by the 'plane crash'?
How could the hole be so perfectly round? Was it just luck that that part of the pentagon was undergoing renovations, therefor 'loss of life' was minimal?

people's ignorance has gone through the roof

so the motive is to cover up the government's involvement with companies linked to terror.

at least that's an interesting theory. and takes more thought than some other theories i've heard.

BUT, i have so many unanswered questions that put holes in these theories....

i don't see how fear among the american public would help to cover that up.

 

To take their mind off the real issue, big business corporate ties.

"CONSPIRACY OR COINCIDENCE?
Is it a conspiracy or a coincidence? There is a long and tangled history between the Bush family and the elite of Saudi Arabia.

It begins in the 1970's in Houston, Texas, when George W. Bush was just starting out in his family's two businesses of politics and oil. The powerful - and very rich - Bin Laden family helped fund his first venture into oil."

"The cozy friendship continued for decades. After a terrorist attack at a barracks in Saudi Arabia which killed 19 Americans, the bin Laden family received a multi-billion dollar contract to re-build. And incredibly, George Bush Sr. was in a business meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Washington on the morning of September 11th with one of Osama Bin Laden's brothers."

"Sept. 11/2001
The attack occurs. The morning of the attack George Bush Sr. is meets with members of the Carlyle Group in Washington. Bin Laden's own brother is at the meeting. Members of the Bin Laden family are allowed to leave the U.S. without questioning two days later."

The 'no fly zone', wasn't lifted yet.

it didn`t affect my life in the slightest way......


@ wink: the bin laden family is not very proud of their most popular member i think......

and what they call family is a organsiation of probably a few thousand people :hihi:

Actually I had read reports that in the London bombing, the floor of the subway near the bomb was blasted upward rather than downward, showing that the bomb said to be ON the train was actually more likely UNDER the train.

But hey, what do I know?  Apparently I'm just a paranoid nutball conspiracy theorist.

To answer the original question, I haven't been affected.  I constantly fly on planes and don't think anything of it.  The only thing it has done is make me more paranoid of every action of the world's governments.

indirectly yes. they supported the US army in iraq.

Actually the poll said that the majority of them felt that the government was not honest about 9-11, and covered up vital information about that day.



You have unanswered questions because you refuse to watch the movie.

Nobody said that "fear among the American Public" would cover anything up.

Not reading and refusing to even listen to other points of view cover things like that up quite well I think.

(It is funny to watch your logic in action. You won't watch the film, then argue against what you think is in the film to prove a point. Pretty funny.)

Nobody said that "fear among the American Public" would cover anything up.


if you're gonna get involved in other's discussions, at least read the posts first so you don't end up making false claims.

quote from wink: "... to instil fear and control over its people, so it can cover up it's involvment with companies linked to terror orginizations."
 

i haven't argued against anything in the film. if you took time to read and fully consider people's posts, you wouldn't have any trouble understadning them.

if i wanted to discuss the film, i would watch it all of it, and then give my opinion. but since i stopped watching soon after they quote a pedestrian that saw the plane from brooklyn (a mile away)..."it didn't look like a commercial plane".  :rofl: :rofl:

You are too lazy to watch. Just like you are too lazy to read.

So instead you ask somebody else for the info, which you try and poke holes in.

Your entire exchange is lazy.

But....... no surprise here.

P.S. if you can get your cell phone to work at 32,000 ft, while going 550 mph, give me a call! I'd love to know what plan you are on. (Since it is impossible.)

****

After it is all said and done, it is pretty obvious our government is covering up important details about 9-11. There is no doubt about that.

No, actually it would not.

OR is a biased source. CNN is not biased.

Anyone who doubts the validity of what the 9-11 commission has reported should do a search for "popular mechanics 9-11"

They have a lot of counter claims to most of the conspiracy claims.

I have watched/read my fair share of 911 conspiracy theories and, as well done as some of them are, the popular mechanics piece puts most of them to bed.

I do think it is odd that the government won't release the confiscated camera footage of the plane hitting the pentagon though.

EDIT -- ahh, took some time to read through this thread and I'm guessing the movie in question is "loose change"??.

Its well done on the outside, but while they pose a lot of questions, they leave out A LOT as well, simply to make their points seem more valid.  Some of their claims are just downright silly. 

For example:
""""From wikipedia -  of the documentary's proposal that a cruise missile or a small aircraft may have been the cause of damage to the Pentagon, cite the nearly 100 documented accounts from witnesses on the scene who reported seeing a large airliner. Some witnesses specifically noted seeing a 757, while only two witnesses, located some distance from the scene, reported seeing a small plane. Loose Change, however, implies that an equal number of witnesses reported different aircraft as reported a commercial jet, and does not mention the large body of witness reports in support of a commercial jet. Critics of the missile theory note that not a single witness at the scene has ever reported seeing a missile[6]. Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport is located just one mile beyond the Pentagon in the direction the large aircraft was travelling. In Plain View suggests that the large aircraft continued on past the Pentagon and a smaller aircraft struck the building.

In response to the film's suggestion that Flight 93 landed in Cleveland, instead of crashing or being shot down in Pennsylvania, and that passengers were subsequently secretly evacuated to an empty NASA research center, critics in the 9/11 Truth Movement contend that there is virtually no evidence to support that claim and that many witnesses at the time reported seeing and hearing the plane at the crash site""""


If you are going to look at some statements/facts, you MUST consider, or at the very least, MENTION all the facts. 

Also, the bit about the cell phones doesn't take into consideration that the phones built into the airplanes were probably used, not just personal cell phones - I don't know if the tests the film mentions takes that into consideration.  Don't the phones in the back of the airplane chairs work from anywhere?


Either way, it is a very interesting film and I am a firm beliver that we should always question what we are told.

Back on topic - I kinda know what the original poster means....theres just something in the air so to speak.  For me personally not much has changed, but I think the country as a whole has become much more fearful and stupid. 

9--11 hasn't changed me one bit, i drive by that damn hole in the ground many times along the west side highway before I enter the brooklyn battery tunnel and I feel more upset about red tape and what BS is going on to why people can't just move on and build.. Tragedy strikes all the time, this was a terrible event, but it is almost 5 years later time to move on but remember those lost..  It's like god forbid someone builds on the foot prints of the towers... People die in horrific ways all the time, you just have to move on..

I don't know if 9-11 is responsible but everyone is a fucking politically correct baby nowadays ,I fucking hate that,,,, Of course people look at arabs different today, guess that's normal though...

If 9-11 never happened it would have eventually because we never learned from 1993 anyways..

back to the personal insults. i should have known this would happen.

when people run out of original and intelligent thoughts, they resort to personal attacks.  :hihi:


back on topic of this thread....

mike - i agree with you on the political correctness. a great book was just released by Michael Smerconish on that topic. it's a very interesting read. here's the link -

http://www.mastalk.com/mastalk/

Nope.

Come here and give your momma a kiss............



(http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/1801/cheshe3jc.gif) (http://imageshack.us)

I think they were (especially in the begining), but I think now people are starting to wake up. Which is great.

I'd tend to agree with you, but we are one "terror alert" away from people buying all the duct tape and cellophane they can get their hands on.  The fact that 3 years after 9-11 people were scared into voting for Bush again goes to show you we still have along way to go.

 I think Katrina woke a lot of people up to be honest.

The "fact"?  :rofl: 

although you might be right....Kerry did scare alot of people into voting for Bush.  :hihi:

I'm not really sure what to believe in. Although I believe that there are some questions and inaccuricies to do with 9/11, I don't believe in the way-extreme conspiracies on it.

Also, SLCPunk, do you actually believe that it is impossible to use your cellphone in a plane flying at a high distance cause I could use my phone in a plane, not saying it was the same circumstances, just saying that I could use it.

And, sandman, you've got to be one of the most stubborn posters here. You refuse to watch the movie but yet you want to have an intelligent conversation with those who have viewed it.

Well it's been a couple years since then. That is the time frame I am referring to.

It did. Most recently the lie he told about the Libby case has brought him to an all new low, 7 points away from Nixon's lowest rating. His party is splitting down the middle now, and the only one's left to support him are the Kool-Aid drinkers who are ready to drop a bomb on Iran (go read the Sean Hannity forums if you would like a good laugh). High ups in the military are threatening to resign in protest if Bush pushes on with the Nuke talk at this point; showing that even the military has had enough of this man. So in those regards, life has gotten better since 9-11. People have begun to wake up, which is great.



It is impossible. That is why they are just now creating technology (Pico Cell) so you can talk above 8000 ft.

How high up were you when you spoke? Where you about to land?

read my posts. i have made it perfectly clear i am not discussing the movie. i am not interested in limiting the discussion ONLY to those that have seen the movie. i'm curious as to what ANYONE thinks the motive could be.

and since when did you have to watch a movie to have an opinion on something?? is reading not enough anymore??

that would be like me saying no one's opinion in these threads is valid unless you've seen "Flight 93" or "United 93".

You avoided a subject and decided to dance about the fringe instead. Pulling suckers in to discuss the talking points instead of actually watching it and then discussing. An easy out for you. Because then you could attack the middle man (the posters) instead of the scientific facts in the movie. If you had to watch the movie, then you would be faced with trying to disprove basic laws of physics etc.

It is easier for you to paint broad brush strokes of what you think the movie implies, then attack that. You are off the hook that way.


Edit: The point was made WHY in the movie. Pulling others in to recreate the powerful statement is what you wish for: A watered down version. Poke poke poke

i've seen 3 movies in the last 3 years. for me to take time away from other things in my life, i have to REALLY want to do it. a movie about a conspiracy theory doesn't do it for me.

point me to a transcript of the movie and i'll gladly read it (anything to kill time at work).

i've read some on this topic and there's plenty of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that HATE this movie. and like i said, in the 5 minutes i did watch, they tried to mislead the viewer. like if the government WAS behind it, they would get cheap and NOT use a plane that looks EXACTLY like a commercial plane. they have one guy (at least a mile away) make that claim, yet they don't even mention hundreds of other eye witnesses. that's selective. AND they were misleading on the facts regarding the WTC insurance policy.

I don't really remember but it seemed like we were on our way down.

I watched the? video. I honestly don't believe the theory. I was at home watching the news when the tragedies first happened. I remember witnesses looking for their loved ones who were on those flights.

I highly doubt the American government would deliberately take the lives of its citizens. That seems like an unfair and far-fetched theory.

The Hamburg Cell movie seems like a more accurate account of what happened.

The Bush administration is guilty of ignoring the warnings, but to say that they were behind the whole thing is....... The people responsible for the attacks are dead. So we're left with speculations and conspiracies.

So you're implying we're better off with Bush as president?  Please respond no so I don't have to laundry list the lies hes told us and the crimes against the country and our constituion....but if you insist "YES", I'll be more then happy to recount them for you :)

The movie addressed this also.

Because about 9 of the "hijackers" reported to be alive and well living in various locations. This has been reported by the BBC, CNN, ABC, and CBS.


What about all the other lack of physical evidence? A plane that simply vaporized when hitting the pentagon? The impossible maneuver the plane had to make in order to hit the pentagon? Why all video of the plane hitting the pentagon was snatched up minutes after it happened? Not even a clip of it hitting the building was released.

The fact that it is impossible for a plane to go through the amount of steel they claimed it to when it hit the pentagon? The fact that the hole in the pentagon was way too small for a plane of that size?

There is simply too much to ignore.

What does anybody say to the huge amount of questions left by the video?

So did the government take down the plane that landed in Pensylvania?

This was a big part of the movie I really wanted to know more about.....to me this would be a smoking gun pointing to a conspiracy of some sorts - how legit are the sources in question though?  I mean, for every "loose change" there are 5 sites shooting down all the theories and really making them seem VERY silly and foolish.  At first I got caught up in all of the theories, but after doing some research of my own and reading a lot of competent, well researched essays/documents MOST of the Loose Change type theories are shot down quick.  If you're intersted, just go to Wikipeida and type in loose change or 911 conspiracy theory, stuff like that and you should find links to sites debunking many things.

My point is, if in fact the people in question were alive, wouldnt' the major news networks pick up on this, especially if there is a "liberal bias" and if the media hates the Bush Admin so much.....

I have read both, and find too many unanswered questions on the Loose Change theory. Also, this administration has done nothing but lie since day one. So it pokes holes in their credibility from the start. People are more prone to listen to alternative scenarios.

I read the popular mechanics theory that was supposed to beat down this theory. But then I found out it was written by cousin of the Chief of homeland security. Then I also read another article written by a conservative BYU professor (BYU is hardly liberal, I'd say extreme conservative) that essential beat down the popular mechanics article.

I would not get this type of movie confused with "liberal bias". Simply because so many people on both sides believe that the government did this. The theory is that this is not a right or left agenda either.

Many of the claims made are simply laws of physics, that anybody could refute if they were false.


There are other glaringly obvious lies like the one about finding a terrorists passport in the rubble of 9-11. Is one to really believe that a plane that vaporized into thin air, leaving behind no black box allowed a paper passport to simply float to the ground?

yes they did...

better off than what? no, i wasn't implying that at all. but you stated as "FACT" that people were "scared into voting for bush". that's not a "fact", it is an unproven theory.

kerry was on Meet the Press yesterday and he admitted that he made major mistakes in the campaign. he is to blame - not the scare tactics.


back on topic - both parties would have to be involved.

and if i was in the U.S government, and had to create a plan like 9/11, i would make saddam the bad guy from the get-go. set off a bomb in the U.S. and blame iraq. then go right in and get him. why waste time dicking around with al queda? the whole world hates them - they were already the bad guys. we didn't need to make them look any worse. clinton already tried (and failed) to get bin laden. and they don't have oil.

I agree, there is a lot that doesn't add up, but there is also a lot of Loose Change that is pretty far fetched.  The way they connect the dots in some cases must be done with not grains of salt, but pounds.    Like I said before, its a well done movie in the sense it DEFINITELY gets you thinking, but once you peel back some of its layers, you see its not that well researched, and they convienently leave out a lot of information to make their conclusions look sound.

That bit about the passport is definitely crap, but where is it sourced that an actual passport was found?  I just think they need to reference and source their claims better. 

SLC - you ever see Wag The Dog?  Great movie.  Really fucks with your head if you start thinking about it....

oh jeez, don't take me so literally....you sound like a guy from Loose Change trying to make a lame arguement against me ;) haha kidding.  I saw Kerry's comments, but if you dont' think the fear factor is what got Bush re-elected you aren't being honest with yourself.  The entire Iraq war was fabricated on a lie that if we didnt' get Sadamm he would nuke us...de-classified memos now show us that Blair and Bush both knew before the first bomb was dropped that Iraq most likely did not  contain WMDs.  he used fear, and us Americans are a VERY cowardly lot, to scare us into voting for him...OR ELSE WE'D ALL DIE!!!!!  With all the pre war intelligence you do wonder if Bush and his cronies allowed a massive attack to happen just so they could justify their neo-con agenda.

It has been a while. I should watch it again..........





Two words: "Mushroom cloud"

********


http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ is another great site with info that disputes the 9-11 theory.

you say bush used fear to win.

i say bush did a better job of getting americans to believe he could handle terror and iraq more effectively.

FEAR does NOT equal a bush win, IF Kerry could have convinced the public he was the better man to handle terror. ?


by the way, it was the movie "wag the dog" that got me thinking of a thousand better ways the government could have orchestrated 9/11.

I'll give you that, it took me a while to relunctantly admit that Kerry really never did propose a plan and was a weak candidate - but how people voted for bush again I don't know.  Actually, I do....bush and rove made the non-issues (gay rights, religion, abortion etc..) the main issues.  he also swift boated Kerry out of the race too (but kerry admitted he didn't fight back hard on that quickly enough).

Have you heard kerry lately though?  Thems fightin' words!!!!!  Then again, its pretty easy to take shots at bush - theres just an over abundance of material to choose from.

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

Lisa Beemer doesnt exsist... its made up....

kind of funny when you think the movie for 9-11 is coming out before the buildings are even rebuilt or something is put there beside building #7..

Do you know the plans of the new buildings to be made, will they rebuild the Twin towers?

Im 10 minutes in and I can see why people would believe this.

I went from thinking this was the dumbest craziest piece of shit thread ever to seeing the possibilities.

id like to see a rebuttal that way I could make a more educated assessment.

I dont know how credible the guy who made this is and where he got his info but It is very interesting.

I dont have time to watch the entire hour/21 minutes, but Im gonna be sure to do it tomorrow.

This video makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable.

I dont believe in remote Control planes and no passengers dying but I can see how it would make people question the governments knowledge and possible involvement.



this is like something out of a Dean Koontz novel.

I'm watching the two hour speech the BYU professor is giving right now.

I am going to email him with questions when I am done. I am going to ask him if he is liberal or conservative too. However I can almost bet with that he is a conservative, especially being at BYU.

There is another short speech given by an MIT engineer explaining how it is impossible for the towers to have fallen in such a way as well.

Then why did I see her on TV? Is it a "wag the dog" situation?

The video/documentary makes it seem like everything (9/11) was staged and intricately choreographed.

I feel like it's a slap to the face for the victims of September 11th. Yes, a lot of questions still need to be answered, but to say that those people weren't on the planes and didn't die is wrong, not to mention highly disrespectful.

If this theory were true, it would be the biggest lie in history. In consequence, there would most definitely be a lynching of the White House by most U.S. citizens.

Taking the lives of thousands for insurance money, gold, and oil? The right wing, conservative Republican, oil-rich Bush family and others like them, may be money-minded but would they really be that evil?

I'm guessing No. I think logic needs to be observed first and foremost. I don't like the Bush admin. My vote didn't go to them the first time or second. I'm purely democratic, but I think these accusations are crazy.

Billions upon billions of dollars were made starting with the fall of the WTC. That is a fact regardless of how one would feel about the movie.

It would be the biggest lie in your lifetime perhaps. But throughout history governments have created false attacks for various reasons.

Again it is not a right vs left issue. One would like it to be, but it is not.

The BYU professor speech is very well done and completely destroys the story we were given by the government. He is giving the talk to a group of engineers and physicists. He is part of a national scholar association that disagrees with the story given. You can see it HERE (http://www.911podcasts.com/files/video/Steven_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006/BYU_Professor_Steven_E_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006_911_9-11_Lecture_WTC-7_911TruthSeekers.org.wmv).

To me, it would be a slap in the face to the victims of 9-11 to not watch this professor speak.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

It's very hard to comprehend and digest, for me at least. I just can't imagine that kind of evil existing. I'm not totally naive. I know there are bad people in this world, but for it to come from someone in a position of trust like the president and others who are supposed to care and be looking out for everyone's best interest is unsettling.

You are welcome.


The professor gets a little philosophical as well around 1:06. He is a very timid and (obviously) religious man. He also points out that this transcends left vs. right issues around 1:00 too.






Well he also makes a great point about  the government lying about the dust after the WTC fall. He presents the scientific write up showing how high the PH was, and how it had high levels of mercury. Both very high health risks, if not deadly (he gives one example of a firefighter who died afterwards from the dust.) He shows how the government took the scientific data and then lied about it, claiming it was safe to re-enter the area. Which was blatantly false, and it was more important to get the economy going once again (financial district) then the health of it's own people. It is a smaller scale example of how money trumps the good of the people.

The Q&A was interesting at the end as well.

We will never know... just the same as the Kennedy Assasination... our goverment has been doing and covering up things for decades... Look at the war Georgie W got us into and hes gonna pass it on to Administrations for years....  Alot of interesting points and im sure the towers fell from something other than the planes... same as the pentagon... same as the kennedy grassy knoll... Where there is smoke there is fire.... 

for this conspiracy theory to be true, there's alot of lying that needs to be done by alot of people; including families of civilians. 


Lyz Glick: Widow of Flight 93 passenger Jeremy Glick

Wednesday, September 11, 2002

By Cindi Lash, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

To the rest of the world, her husband is a mythic hero, one of the patriots who fought to thwart the hijackers of United Flight 93.

Little Emerson Glick was just 3 months old when her father, Jeremy, died aboard United Flight 93, which crashed in Somerset County. Since then, her mother, Lyz, has vowed to make sure that Emmy remembers her father not just as a hero of a hijacked airplane, but as a man who thought that everything about his daughter was magnificent.

But at home in Hewitt, N.J., with her 15-month-old daughter, Emerson, Lyz Glick points to his photograph and talks about everything else she treasured about her husband, Jeremy -- his sense of humor, his observant, confident nature and his absolute conviction that their daughter's every gurgle or coo was extraordinary.

To Lyz Glick, keeping those memories crisp and vibrant as Emmy grows up is as important as one day telling their daughter about the day Jeremy died, leading the battle aboard Flight 93 to take back the plane.

"I don't want to see what her dad did on Sept. 11 as the defining point in his life. The country knows him that way, but the country didn't know him as a father and husband," she said. "He is a real person to me, and that's the goal for her."

Jeremy Glick, 31, used a GTE Airfone to call his wife from Flight 93. After telling Lyz he loved her and needed her to be happy, he spoke of a plan to regain control of the plane. He joked about arming himself with his butter knife from breakfast. Lyz told him, "You need to be strong."

Now it is Lyz who must be strong. On days when she's wanted to lie in bed and weep, she's remembered her pledge to provide Emmy with the happy, secure childhood that she and Jeremy had planned.

"She gets up, so I have to get up. She's a baby, and she doesn't realize the strength she gives me," Lyz said of the energetic toddler with a half-dozen teeth, an endless supply of hugs for their three dogs and a growing vocabulary that includes "Da-Da."

"It's fascinating to watch her, but bittersweet, too," she said. "I can call my best girlfriend and say, 'Emmy took her first steps.' But it's not the same."

For Lyz, time's passage has been "surreal," with last Sept. 11 sometimes feeling like yesterday, sometimes like decades ago. At first, she read or watched every media report about that day and its aftermath. Now, newspapers go unread and her TV remote clicks past reports that are likely to upset her.

"It is my strong belief that, with everything that was going on that morning, Jeremy's plane should never have taken off," she said, noting that Flight 93 was late taking off and could have been grounded. "But I try not to dwell on it. I don't find [anger] productive and I believe, in the afterlife, that the terrorists will have what is coming to them."

In the weeks after Jeremy's death, Lyz, 32, found it difficult to be at home without the man she'd met in high school and married in 1996. In October, she, Emmy and the dogs joined her parents in Kiawah Island, S.C.

She stayed until after Thanksgiving, when her heart signaled her to go home. Now she is striving "to be as healthy as possible" and is raising Emmy in both her Christian faith and Jeremy's Judaism, with help from Jeremy's family.

"This is where he is. It's very comfortable now," she said. "It's a very peaceful feeling that I do have because I believe it's not the end. I know it's not."

Still, first occasions without Jeremy have been bleak.

At Christmas dinner, she left the table after her first bite of beef filet triggered flashes of her meat-and-potatoes-loving husband. Wary of another potentially rocky period between her Aug. 31 wedding anniversary, Jeremy's Sept. 3 birthday and the Sept. 11 observances, she took a quiet trip with friends.

But she is back at work, teaching online classes from her home for Berkeley College in New York. She's shopping again in her old, familiar grocery after briefly switching to a new store, where she learned to stop filling her cart with the gallons of milk, steak and regular soda she used to pick up for Jeremy.

She makes a point not to clutch Emmy too close or to be fearful about trips to New York, although she admits to "driving very quickly" across the George Washington Bridge. With Emmy, she flew to California this summer -- then was shaken when, out of the blue, Emmy pointed to the Airfone and chirped: "Da-Da."

"It was very strange. But I have faith that he's seeing us, that he's seeing it all,' she said. "I know there will be that first question about Sept. 11 some day ... that [Emmy] will hear people talk about him saving the White House or the Capitol.

"But I know my husband's actions that day weren't all about being a superhero, but about trying to get home to us, to her," she said. "That's what I want her to remember."

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020911glick911p6.asp

Jeremy Glick, 31, from West Milford, New Jersey, called his wife, Liz, and in-laws in New York on a cell phone to tell them the plane had been hijacked, Joanne Makely, Glick's mother-in-law, told CNN. Glick said that one of the hijackers "had a red box he said was a bomb, and one had a knife of some nature," Makely said. Glick asked Makely if the reports about the attacks on the World Trade Center were true, and she told him they were. He left the phone for a while, returning to say, "The men voted to attack the terrorists," Makely said.

Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, of San Ramon, California, was a senior vice president and chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and development company, and the father of three. He made four calls to his wife, Deena, from the plane. Deena Burnett said that her husband told her that one passenger had been stabbed and that "a group of us are going to do something." He also told her that the people on board knew about the attack on the World Trade Center, apparently through other phone calls.

Alright, a bit of theorizing here.  This is not my idea, but rather one I read elsewhere and mentioned previously in this thread.

Have you ever heard of the scenario known as "Operation Pearl?"  Flight 93 was not the only flight to possibly land in Cleveland.  As the theory goes, flights 11, 77 and 175 were both "replaced" by dummy planes, loaded with jet fuel and further extra explosives (in the cases of 11 and 175, at the very least).  If you try to track flights on a radar screen, it's relatively easy-- unless two planes get close enough to the point where they appear as one dot on the screen-- usually within about a mile and a half of each other.  As the theory goes, Flight 11 flew toward a parked, explosive-laden plane which took off and followed the path of 11 from a lower elevation, then turned its radar transponder on.  At about the same time, the real flight 11 turned its transponder off.  Therefore, the explosive laden plane looked like flight 11 to anyone watching on radar.  The real flight 11, with no transponder continued on to Cleveland where its passengers were unloaded.  The passengers were told that they were brought down due to mechanical problems.  Flights 77, 175, and 93 were also landed in Cleveland.  The passengers of these flights (note that all of these flights were maybe 1/2 full, tops) were all loaded on another plane.  This is the alleged Flight 93 that was shot down over Shanksville, PA by an A-10 Thunderbolt (debris from the flight was scattered across a span of approximately 20 miles, something that wouldn't happen after a normal crash; an "ear-witness" who was a Vietnam Vet said he heard a missile being launched not long before the plane came down; others report seeing a "military-type plane" circling the area afterward).  Easy way to dispose of the passengers and also make the explosions look even more grandiose.  The real planes were then scraped of all serial numbers, logos, and anything else that could trace them to the ones "destroyed" in the attacks, remote controlled out over the Atlantic ocean and dumped in, or sold to a third world nation.  To support the first theory, a man in New Jersey days before the attacks mentioned to his wife he saw something odd that evening as he was out walking-- 4 commercial planes flying in a perfect pattern together out over the Atlantic.  Why would commercial planes be doing that?


And that's how they get away with it-- it seems so unbelievable that people refuse to believe it.  Doubters are labelled as paranoid, conspiracy theorists, and any other derogatory name you can imagine.  Writing about Flight 553 (an "accidental" crash set up to kill Dorothy Hunt, the wife of E. Howard Hunt who was paid $1M by President Nixon to keep quiet about "The Whole Bay of Pigs Thing" [later said to be a code name for the JFK assassination]) historian Carl Oglesby wrote:

"The act imputed is so monstrous that the imputation itself seems a monstrous act. Would this SINISTER FORCE of ours really kill so many innocent people to protect itself? Would it actually do that? In the time of My Lai? Secret wars? Allende? Dallas? Memphis? Los Angeles? Laurel? Fred Hamptons bedroom in Chicago? The Audobon ballroom in Harlem? The road to Selma? Jackson State? Kent State? Watergate?"

(The Yankee and Cowboy War, Berkley Medallion Books, NY, 1997)

Want more?

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

As for the ALLEGED cell phone conversations made from the flights, I think we've covered those here.  I don't feel like looking back in all of this to see if we did, but it seems it was so.  If not, I can cover those as well.

This is one of dumber suggestions by the movie - the plane never landed in Cleveland - it was an error initially made - it was actually the delta plane that landed.  If anyone doesn't think there was MASS confusion that day and that mistakes were uttered they're just being silly.  The fact that the fim makers take this error and exxaggerate it into fact is just careless journalism - there are several other parts of the movie just like this.

For example, the quote that starts the movie about the reporter who didn't see any windows on the plane......I believe I read somewhere he was TWO MILES away at a brooklyn subway stop.  Its odd that nobody else has reported that.  For every eye witness claiming to see something wierd there are hundreds who saw nothing strange.  The film makers do the same thing with the pentagon crash.  they take a few quotes from a sample of a few hundred - its not reporting on the whole story. 

That being said, they do bring up some interesting questions.  But do your research before you draw conclusions from watching one movie.

life change in the United states ?

cause i dont think life changed for that little fellow

(http://www.unicef.hu/img/slide1.jpg)

Sound familiar?


U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War With Cuba

In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban ?migr?s, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.


More:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

If gas prices dont go down its gonna make me believe in this stuff even more.


How can a Govt allow an oil company to have record quarter profits and still charge what they are charging?


The documentary raised my eyebrows. I went into it with my mind made up that it was bullshit and ridiculous but even though I tried my best I admit, it made me believe that it was possible.

Too much though counteracts that.

I still have a hard time believing that the Govt would kill innocent people, Like Journey I just cant comprehend someone being able to be that evil.

remote control planes etc???????? thats a little too sci fi for my liking as well.

To me if they wanted Iraq's oil, they couldve figured out a much easier way to go to war with Iraq than going through all this and killing innocent people.

Gas prices are expected to be over a quarter higher per gallon then last summer.




It is much more then oil.

I must say, those documents about Cuba are very interesting, not sure Id call them a smoking gun but I was horrified watching that and thinking how possible it was.

How is this being handled on a national scale? Are news people talkin about it?

how the fuck can gas prices go up agian?? We own iraq now and all that oil why isnt our gas cheaper?? it should go down not up.... damn i hate putting 50 dollars in every 10 days just to fill up my car.

Free enterprise.

If people pay it and your profits are breaking records why would u drop them?

That would be bad business and everyone knows the world revolves around the almighty dollar.

It sucks bad........

We already have remote control planes......they're called Predators.

But the theories are still bullshit :)

I think one of the major networks picked up on "loose change" as a movie about theories and stuff, but not supporting any of them.  Thats b/c A LOT of the film is VERY easy to disprove and a lot of it is just shoddy journalism and/or using facts but not ALL of the facts in a way to make your conclusion look infalliable.

DOn't just watch the movie and read the conspiracies...check out all the other info out there and then decide. 

My overall opinion is most of the conspriracy stuff is crap, but some do raise valid questions.

1. You're putting the cart before the horse. ?The middle east was a region in social decay, run by political tyrants and religious extremists long before America became heavily involved there.

2. For the record, Israel doesn't need America's help. ?They could are entirely capable of handling any (or all) of the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries alone. ?America gives aid to Israel because that's what you do with allies. ?And this particular ally has been on the front lines against terrorism for some time now. ?Oh, and by the way, the Palestinians (until recently) also received hundreds of millions from America every year. ?

3. No amount of placating or appeasement will stop terrorism. ?It only encourages it. ?If you actually knew history (rather than rewriting it), you'd know that.

4. Take your own advice........read more.

nobody cares about africa.... well besides Bono..... they arent the ones bombing trains or hijacking airplanes... They all have AIDS and are starving thats not as big a problem as hijacking an airplane or bombing a train... really sad but true nobody really cares about africa.

1) This statement has nothing to do with what I said. I said that we have put people in power there as it suits our needs. Which we have and still do.

2) You contradicted yourself here.

3,4)  I'm watching history being made and it is an utter failure. An ugly wart that won't be forgotten for some time now. Who would have thought that bombing people couldn't bring peace?



People care about Africa, except it does not sit on one of the largest untapped reserves of oil on the planet. If it did, we would be claiming "Liberate Darfur." You are right though: nobody cares, there is no money to be made.

key word: REPORTEDLY.

and reported by someone making money from a book.

still, it's interesting. i just need more proof before i trust some no name reporter trying to make a buck.

is there anywhere online where i could see these docs, or find more information about them?

Flight 93 cockpit tapes will be released today.

so if the fix was on and 9/11 was orchestrated by the U.S. Government, add about 10 more people that would have to be "in the know", and lying about the events of that day.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/12/moussaoui.trial/index.html

It is a declassified (you know, the stuff Bush says is ok) 15 page Pentagon document. Allowed for everybody to view thanks to the freedom of information act; it is all over the internet.

Here is a copy of that declassified doc:

http://www.retakingamerica.com/files/northwoods_documents.pdf

It starts getting juicy around page 11.

This was also reported by the AP, and many others.

It also appears that this was not the only "operation" that was presented. I have read two more that were similar to this. "Operation Bingo" summed it up "create an incident which has the appearance of an attack on U.S. facilities (GMO) in Cuba, thus providing an excuse for use of U.S. military might to overthrow the current government of Cuba."

Well in the video the narrator said the voices were dubbed. Like the example of the guy giving his first and last name to his mom when he called home. The narrator says, "When was the last time you called your mother and gave your full name?"? Well when was the last time you were held hostage by hijackers on a airplane? The guy was obviously in a state of shock. It's not uncommon for people to say odd things were they're nervous or in total shock.

As for the flight 93 attendant, the narrator says, "She doesn't sound like someone who just saw some people murdered." To that I say she was trained to remain calm in any situation. That was her job.

Africa is interesting because it really doesnt matter how much someone cares or how many dollars are pumped into Africa.

Until someone teaches the Africans about "Safe Sex' Aids will continue to be an epidemic.


I have arguments with people all the time.


I think Cancer should be priority number 1.

Im not concerned with Aids cause to me, AIDS is the most preventable catostrophic disease in world history.


Sure you can get it very very rarely through a transfusion but for the most part it is very easily preventable.

So i dont care a whole lot about AIDS. as long as people keep being irresponsible,it wont matter how many billions or trillions of dollars people pump into Africa.


Lets get cancer,Parkinsons,Alzheimers, and the other true tragical diseases under control THEN worry bout AIDS.

I have to disagree.

An attendant is supposed to stay calm under normal flying circumstances (including preparing for a crash.) But to witness a brutal murder(s), it would be hard for anybody to remain that stoic, much less calm.

no one knows how anyone would react to anything. if you had 1,000 people, you'd get 1,000 different reactions.

i think preparing for a crash (i.e. preparing to die) is more stressful than watching someone else die.

but who really knows?

Everybody is different........who knows.

I saw somebody shot with a gun once (I was about 17 years old.) And my heart about jumped out of my chest.

Shock can also overtake your body, shutting it down. Keeping you in check, not allowing you to panic I suppose.

Personally......I'd shit.

Here is my question: If the government knew about this, including Bush, then why did Bush look so stunned when it happened?  Why did he freeze like he didn't know what to do?

Can people really have it both ways?

The people who believe this, don't believe Bush was in the know.

Personally he seems to always have that look on his face. I like to call it the "Utah-Prozoc-Delayed-Gaze".

;D  Just thought I would shoot out the question.

So, SLC, do you really believe there weren't any people on those flights, or are you just entertaining the thought?

Care to share this story?

I don't know.



I was hitchhiking back down to Tampa from central Florida. I was young, maybe 16, but I think 17.

I got dropped off at a fork in the intersate and proceeded to try and thumb a ride the remainder of the way. I was walking over an interstate overpass. (I found out later that this section of town had some racial conflict that created a riot. )

I saw what I thought was a man fall of a bike. I saw a car coming up behind him and he was not getting up. I saw the blood and thought I must run down and pull him out of the road before he was run over. I began to run down the grassy slope (I don't know what I was thinking, there was no way I could have made it in time) when that car caught up to the man. At this point the man was about to get up, when the driver of the car got out and shot the man twice. Two loud pops, almost like firecrackers. It did not register at first, but I realized that I had heard a loud pop before the man crashed his bike. I realized then, that this man had been shot off his bike and the guy was finishing the job. I turned around and ran like bloody hell back up that bank and onto the interstate. Jogging down the side of it for a good mile, before I began to walk and stick my thumb out again.

I also had a man put a gun in my face after I caught him in my parents house. When he pointed that thing at me I threw up the 2x4 I had (to belt him with) and screamed like a little girl, covering my face. He didn't shoot and drove away. Scared the shit out of me. That is another story all together. Much better then the other one (good now, not then, lol.)

Scary stuff man!

Woah. I had close encounters with people pulling guns on me like 4 times. Scary stuff indeed.

I dont think we will ever know... but at least people still talk about it and question it.... at least some people are still awake in the world and dont belive everything they see on TV.

On the contrary, it has a lot to do with things you've said over and over again.? You essentially believe anti-American sentiment in the middle east is a monster America alone has created.? That it is the U.S. who has put tyrants and thugs into power.

Rather than making an effort to specify which nations this would apply to (and there are some), you use the above as a general statement that applies across the board.? You also don't (or won't) recognize the fact that America has had dealings with tyrants and thugs - often having to choose the proverbial lesser of two evils - because tyrants and thugs make up the great bulk of what you have to deal with in the region.? America didn't create them, they were already there.? Of course, in a perfect world, tyrants and thugs would not be the ones in power there, and the rest of the world wouldn't need the oil they sit on.? Unfortunately that's not reality.?

What is reality is you have huge populations that are angry and discontent because they live under oppressive regimes.? Their anger are not so much a result of our freedoms as a lack of their own.? And religious extremists exploit this raw anger to stir them up against the West, using Israel and America as the chief scapegoats.
?
Rather than contradicting myself, as you claim, I was pointing out the crucial reason why the United States gives aid to Israel.? It is for defensive, rather than offensive, purposes.? Like so many that buy into the "it's all America's fault" mentality, you are quicker to condemn Israel's military actions (virtually always in self-defense) than the terrorist actions of their enemies who completely surround them.? You've used that "bombs and bullets" line in regard to Israel so many times, you should probably be paying somebody royalties.? Yet you don't say a thing about the aid America has given to the opposition.? I'm afraid you're the type that gets more angry when a few Palestinians are killed accidentally by an Israeli missile aimed at specific targets than you are by two-dozen Israelis killed intentionally by a Palestinian suicide-bomber.

Finally, you are so busy labeling U.S. foreign policy an utter failure, as well as wax philosophical about how bombing people won't bring peace, that you fail to realize you don't have any realistic alternatives to the "big picture problem" - Islamo-faschist terrorism.? Or, rather, the alternatives you might suggest (fruitless self-flaggellation and the cutting off of Israel, followed by never ending political rhetoric and ineffective economic sanctions, while both terrorist organizations and terrorist-states grow more powerful) will have results that make the war in Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic.



Yes, of course.? Rather than the nations of the world (i.e. the U.N.) being collectively guilty of allowing Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. to happen, America is solely to blame.

Many of the reasons the U.S. invaded Iraq might be self-serving, but it is facing the problems of the middle east head-on.? That's more than could be said for most other countries, who have the luxury of living in a world of denial simply because they are farther down on the terrorist hit-list than the few nations on the front lines of the war.

I did not say we "created it."

I said we put people in power as they suit our needs and then take them out as they don't.

This is now the third time I have explained this to you.


Why should I make an effort? I am to hold your hand throughout this ordeal? If I created a timeline for you, you would only ignore it anyway.

Pick up a history book and read it.


Yes. Looking back I seem to recall the USA throwing out an elected leader and installing a dictator..... Care to guess who?

 
Sorry pal, both sides are guilty of "offensive"


 

Any attempt as a mind reader will probably be a short career.......

I don't say it is "America's fault", but I do think we contradict ourselves as far as international policy is concerned (see my "overthrowing a democratically elected leader" post above.) Once again: As we see fit. Once the country is no longer a tool of the USA (Like the UN was for years) it no longer holds any value and must be let go. This administration of liars and crooks did the same thing when the UN no longer suited it's needs.




You think Iraq is a success? Even the right wing wants out of this disaster now. Powell is pointing the finger at Chenney. Newt is saying it's time to pull out. Yet here you sit all angry at the messenger, who has given plenty of solutions in the past.


It's amazing how you see into the future like you do. I deal in real time, and what I see in real time is NOT working.




Nope.

I never said we were "to blame".

I did imply that the hypocrisy was rather amazing. Which, of course, it is.






It is beyond self serving.

If you think this is the way to deal with the middle east, with a poorly planned war and bad intelligence, then I think that speaks volumes about you.

Have a great day.

It is beyond self serving.

If you think this is the way to deal with the middle east, with a poorly planned war and bad intelligence, then I think that speaks volumes about you.

Have a great day.
[/u]




In response to the above, I will say that, the other way of dealing with the Middle East was not working.  It's one thing to dis-like American policy, but when you start bombing our embassies, exploding boats into our ships, and leaving truck bombs at the WTC, I would say that the prior ways of " dealing " ( Or avoiding, as I would call it) with the Middle East needed to be changed.

Everyone over there needed to see that aside from Hamburgers, Slasher Flicks, and Starbucks, America was still quite capable of tremendous military might. And don't think for one second, that the site of our Troops marching on Baghdad did'nt remind these people of just that.

Greatest quote ever came from Dennis Miller -  " George Bush reminded people that while America may have a really long fuse, attached to end of that fuse is a Big Ass Fucking Bomb "

This documentary makes me believe the Govt is more crooked than I orginally thought but I dont believe the Govt caused 9/11.

The documentary maker couldve had a HR if not for the ignorant "There wasnt anyone on the planes theory"

What about the movie coming out Flight 93? I think that is proof there were people on the planes.


Now that still doesnt mean this couldnt have happened.

If the Govt is gonna sacrifice thousands in the Twin Towers, why wouldnt they sacrifice people in airplanes?


 All I know is a country like Brazil *no disrespect to any Brazillians on this forum* can have Zero dependability on oil, why cant ?a country as advanced as the US be also?

I know its cause the Govt sold out to corporations and big businesses and the rich corporations really run the country but still, our problems would ?be solved with and a president would be a hero if alternate fuel supplies were developed.

Our country would thrive.

The enviroment would thrive,the economy.

I blame and hold all Americans responsible though.

It is us that keeps the shitty career politican in office. Why dont Americans ban together and kick all these career pocketlining, bribe taking politicans out of office?

I think Republicans and Democrats are destroying this country and we need a revolution. Too bad everyone is brainwashed.

That is all fine and dandy.

But it did not accomplish one thing against the group that attacked this country here and abroad.

Looks like our "military might" isn't quite what you thought it was either. Assuming you have been reading the papers over the last few months.

Our Millitary might is exactly what I thought it was pal. It destroyed an entire army that was in it's path and toppled the Iraqi regime in a matter of weeks.
The problems that are occuring now, have nothing to do with military might. These are not head on battles that our guys are losing. This is suicide bombs, road mines, car explosions etc. It is weak, and cowardice. To assume that the troops are failing is a disgrace. The problems you see now have to do with the post-war planning, the politicians in charge. Perhaps you should use your brain and look beyond the newspapers and CNN updates, to draw your own conclusions.

Yeah, attacking and toppling a military and regime that has next to nothing for weapons is a huge accomplishment.


So you're telling me that if someone took away your weaponry, invaded the US, defeated the US military, knocked the current White House out of power, and said they were doing it for your good that you'd just say "Well ok, sure, go right ahead" rather than find any possible way you could to fight back?  I'd say rolling over and taking it is more cowardly than fighting back with whatever means you may have.  What's weaker is going on an unprovoked attack because we thought they may have been a threat.


I think this is something everyone would agree on.  There's not much the troops can do about being sent in with no plan other than to have not joined the military in the first place.


Well if CNN, Fox News, et. al weren't afraid to criticise the government when they deserve it...

Make no mistake. Our military is the finest on the face of the Earth. Denouncing the opposing the armies we've faced does not change that. You can line up France, Germany and Russia and the American Military would wipe the floor with them. There's a reason all of these European countries bitched and moaned about Iraq, but did nothing to stop us..........

You are justifying suicide attacks on our Military? You cannot be serious. The Iraqi army during the invasion doing these bullshit tactics would be one thing
BECAUSE WE WERE ATTACKING THEM.  A group of fundamentalists who believe that violence and blowing up civilians will lead them to Allah, doing the same thing WHILE WE ARE NOT ATTACKING THEM, is bullshit. You justify that? What sick planet are you on? That's the same mentality that chooses to say that 9/11 was justified as well.

Wake up and smell the shit you're serving. I respectfully disagree with your view on this -

That is fantastic, great job.

I don't think anybody in this thread was doubting our military strength, were they?

The other countries were right BTW. There was no reason to invade. There were no WMD.

I actually caught a great special on CNN last night. It was an hour long and went into great detail of how we based all our "intelligence" on one man who was known for lying (AKA "Curveball"). It also showed how Bush ignored that fact and pressed for war.



You don't respectfully disagree with his views because you are talking about something else altogether here.

SPlunk would you mind telling me what the hell you are babbling about? No one here questioned our military strength? You did, read above. Our military might isnt' quite what I thought it was? What is this quote above here say? Is that not you?


Who are you to jump in and tell me that I don't respectfully disagree with his views? He was saying the suicide bombings going on there were justified, because their country was attacked. I clearly gave my views on how they are not justified.  That would be called " Respectfully Dis-Agreeing "

And for the record, the other countries did not deny the WMD existed there. If they did, prove me wrong. But, the way I remember it, they just wanted to contain the madman with sanctions. In other words, WMD did not pose a threat to THEM, so why support the invasion -

I suggest you read posts before you comment on them, as well.    Later

You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Explaining how the world trembles beneath at the mere thought of our military. In reality Iraq was no cake walk, as many thought it would be.


Why shouldn't I? You are talking about two different things.




I've heard all this before. It's all nonsense.

You call the other countries names for not wanting to go in. But they WERE RIGHT. There was no threat, it's an established fact at this point. There was no threat to anybody.

I did read your posts, and nobody wants to hear it anymore. It's over, done, and you guys were wrong.

Gimme a break will ya? You were against this war, fine. You feel some sort of vindication now that Iraq is a mess, good for you. If you felt leaving that guy in power after what happened on 9/11 with " supposed " stockpiles of that crap was the right move , then more power to you. I will respectfully dis-agree with you as well.
Oh, by the way. The Iranian president again said just this afternoon that Israel will face annihalation. This coming days after he announces they have joined the nuclear club. Would you suggest the " wait and see " approach on that situation as well?? Never mind, I know your answer already. And don't speak for other people saying no body want to hear it anymore either, because I know plenty of people who don't want to hear your point of view anymore as well, but these are called posts for a reason. You are not going to agree with everyone on it. The point of them is discussion. If you choose not to do that, then why even bother replying?
When I saw your posts , I did'nt get angry with you, I just gave my view on things. Sorry if you were offended .....Take it easy man

I feel no vindication of the thousand dead and the billions, if not trillions spent. I have been against it since day one.



I never thought taking somebody out on cherry picked "evidence" was a good idea, no.




First of all, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I always felt that Iran had ties to AQ, not Iraq. It was W who screwed it up with his "Slam Dunk" in Iraq. Our standing (although you guys don't seem to care) with the international community has been ruined. Now, we may really need it. Iran is years away from developing anything that can harm us. So, again, no need to rush in with guns blazing. Have you not learned from Iraq yet?




There you go answering for me again........

You don't offend me though.

So then, what is your solution to Iran?

Just drop a nuke?

Our military is too stretched to go in there at this point, and we are out of money.........

Damn, why won't you let me leave! Just kidding. You and I really need to get in a room and argue this one out , I think.
I will attempt to respond to all of your quotes on quotes


1) I'm glad you feel no vindication - did'nt mean to imply otherwise

2) Cherry Picked evidence is crap. I saw BillClinton on Larry King months before the invasion saying the same stuff as Bush. I'm not saying the evidence was correct, but I am saying that the idea that these guys made it up is horseshit. Clinton went into detail on the Mustard Gas, Anthrax, Botchelum, all of that good stuff. Did he get his evidence cherry picked directly from Bush?

3) I was'nt comparing Iraq to Iran. Was only pointing out that a potentially dangerous Middle East situation was occuring, and like it or not, America is going to be smack in the middle of it. And I apologize for appearing to speak for you, was only making an assumption

4) TAKE IT EASY!

5) PLEASE TELL ME WE CAN AGREE ON ONE THING , HOWEVER, ?- GUNS N' FUCKING ROSES!

If you want to argue with me in a room about this, you will probably have to wait in line......there are plenty here that have already got a place. Take a number and have a seat please.

2) The "Clinton defense" is not accepted because Bush took us to war, not slick Willy. Bush said WMD, and "mushroom cloud". He talked at great length about the tubes, which were false.

5) I can agree on GnR with you, you bet!

kudos to all - the political discussions in the jungle have remained "mature" over the last week or so. both sides bringing it strong, but remaining respectful. good to see.


i supported clinton when he bombed iraq, and because of his comments, i have always believed iraq was the bigger threat.

i agree that iran was a major threat all along as well. and can appreciate arguments that maybe they were more of a threat than iraq.

BUT, i also thought that by establishing a democracy in iraq, it would help our efforts in other middle east nations (including iran). for these reasons, i supported the war (i actually wanted it when clinton was in office). 

but plenty of mistakes have been made in iraq, so the overall plan for the middle east has not worked. i still believe if executed properly, we could have had much more success in iraq. but i could be wrong.

what's up DC. i agree 100%. i admit i enjoy arguing, but a benefit from that is you can learn ALOT, and at the very least see things in other perspectives that you might not have considered.


GnFnR!!!!

The cool thing is, where use to we would all just fight and fight it seems now that even if we dont agree we can at least try and take a second to see where the other person is coming from and try to at least respect their opinion.


For instance when SLC was talking about the Loose Change documentary.

Normally I wouldnt have even entertained the idea.

Now though I watch with an open mind, see the possibilities and even if i dont agree i can at least respect and see how he arrived to his conclusion and even agree with some of it.

Its pretty cool when people can get along!


Makes me wanna stand up and start singing "America The Beautiful!" :hihi:

Your twisted sense of moral relativism makes me sick.

You somehow assume that those attacking U.S. troops in Iraq, as well as civilians, are somehow noble patriots defending their homeland.? If that were the case, they wouldn't be killing their fellow citizens and trying to impede the development of their own government.

You would be more able to recognize the enemy forces in Iraq for the self-interested, wanton killers they are if you weren't so busy condemning America.



Give me a break.

Nobody is afraid to criticize the government.  It is done every day.

Once again, no one is answering my question.  If you had everything taken away from you and you were attacked by an outsider with questionable motives, you would just roll over and accept it rather than fight back against the invaders and those who support these invaders?  I doubt it.  Like I said-- what would you do if it happened to you?  I just think you don't want to face the possibility or even probability that you would act in the exact same way.

I love how suddenly questioning someone makes me anti-American.  Gotta love what's happened to this country.  Patriotism doesn't mean blind, unquestioning loyalty to America.  It doesn't mean Amerika Uber Alles. 


Find me a MAINSTREAM MEDIA ORGANIZATION that will.  The people constantly criticise the government and its actions, but when do you see it making major news?  You don't.  The mainstream media has too much to lose in questioning the government.  Advertising and money are now more important than getting the real story out to the people and if you offend the wrong people by asking the wrong things, bam, no advertising money.  You'd be surprised how many stories are silenced because of the risks of losing out on advertising money or other perks.

While on the topic of the mainstream news media, because I can sense so many "liberal media" comments about to be thrown out, I'll quash those before anyone can start.  This is a brief excerpt from my final college paper.

"Over the years, Fox News has been accused of being extremely one-sided in its coverage of domestic issues, especially when it comes to political, gender, and racial minorities.  The channel is consistently associated with more conservative and Republican-leaning viewers and show guests while leaving Democrats and liberals off the channel whenever possible.  The aforementioned host of Fox News' Special Report, Brit Hume, is one of the worst offenders of right-wing bias in selecting guests on his show.  According to a study published in Extra! Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting, 71% of all guests on Hume's show in 2001 were "Conservative," while the other 29% were classified as "Non-Conservative" (Rendall and Hollar, 2004).  The latter classification included people of many different political ideologies-- Democrat, Green, Libertarian, and more.  Fox calls Special Report its "signature show."  The fact that 71% of guests on the show come from one political ideology is troubling, especially when it is mentioned that the station calls itself "fair and balanced."  In 2004, a similar study was performed, looking at the guests of Special Report, and classifying them as conservative, centrist, progressive, or non-ideological.  The final breakdown of these guests was 57%, 12%, 11%, and 20%, respectively (Rendall and Hollar, 2004).  Once again, conservatives dominated the numbers, but not as egregiously as they had in 2001.  Additionally, the guests were primarily white males.  In the 2004 report, women represented only 7% of guests, while nonwhite people made only 11% of all guests (Rendall and Hollar, 2004).  None of the women or nonwhite guests were classified as progressives.  While the station has attempted to be more "fair and balanced," it appears they have a long way to go before living up to their slogan.  This rightward bias is not only found in Fox News.  The remainder of the nightly network newscasts favored conservatives when it came to partisan sources.  ABC, NBC, and CBS newscasts all featured more than 70% of partisan sources being conservative-leaning in 2001.  Even National Public Radio, often called "liberal radio" by its detractors, had conservatives outnumbering progressives by almost a three to two ratio (Rendall and Hollar, 2004)."

Let me repeat that last part-- ABC, NBC, and CBS newscasts all featured more than 70% of partisan sources being conservative-leaning in 2001.  Even National Public Radio, often called "liberal radio" by its detractors, had conservatives outnumbering progressives by almost a three to two ratio.

Anyways, back to the real topic here-- not the conservative media, not the Iraq war, but September 11.  Let's go.

it is not the media's job to criticize the U.S. Government.

but if you want examples of political analysts criticizing the U.S. Government (who appear on mainstream news channels and in mainstream newspapers) i'll give you plenty.

and your hypithetical question about someone coming to the U.S. does not make any sense. U.S. is a land of opportunity. our government helps our people. immigrants WANT to come here to live (check the news).

we're talking about mainstream news media. their job is to report.

just because "reporters" on ccn criticize the white house, doesn't make it right. 

it will be a sad day when news reporters openly give partisan opinions. then we'll never be provided all the information we have a right to. 

This is where you get confused.

Reporting the truth about something is not biased!

It is reporting.

That is what journalism was originally supposed to be. Not the sound bites you see today on the trash 24 hour news channels.

i'm not confused at all. i agree with your last post. they should report everything they know and be totally truthful.

but keep their opinions/criticism/praise out of it.

which one would you rather see reported:


A. Bush gave a powerful speech that had a positive impact on those in attendence.

B. Bush gave a speech which was well received by the 200 NRA members in attendence. 


i prefer B.

I emailed the documentary to my brother and he and his friends watched it and they agree with SLC on it.

We were discussing it and I tell u what, Im starting to believe maybe the Govt had something to do with this.

Where were the bodies? why did the buldings just collapse the way they did?

This documentary is very interesting and makes me kinda scared.

Well now I think we are talking about two different things.

I incorrectly assumed that you meant any report that was did put the government in the good light.

Why must ALL threads about anything turn into Bush sucks & Halliburton is the devil. Guess when you have nothing to say you have to play that tired hand.

Plenty to say.

Truth always reveals itself though.

Even on the great day of the chocolate bunny..............

so what about that Loose Change video

lot of the facts are shaky.

so basically their point is that the US governement planned 911 so they could find reasons to take action in the middle east ?
i mean, there are easier ways .....

It's a really weird subject. I mean the video shows so many inconsistancies, but when you think about, any government couldn't possibly be that evil to do something like that.

more than evil, it's seems to be such a waste of time and effort
plan all this ... so they can attack afganistan and iraq ? i mean, they attacked these countries anyway agains the will of the rest of the wolrd ... conspiracies are tiresome.

You're half right. Most of the world was in favor of the Afghanistan campaign and actually contributed to it. Iraq is where things got bad as far as our relationships.

Sounds possible. Bin Laden a former FBI recruit not many people know that. So anything is possible. I believe that Bin Laden's location is known by Government but they're up to something.

BAH!

Against "the will"? of the rest of the world?? If the U.S. ever waited for other countries to actually DO anything, nothing (besides meaningless U.N. resolutions) would get done.? Whether you agree with America's so-called unilateral actions or not, the U.S. doesn't need an 'OK' from the rest of the world to conduct military operations.?

But, for the record, since we're in the high-school mentality of just doing what's popular, most nations supported the invasion of Afghanistan.

Let us not however forget, that whatever the conclusions we draw over the legality or otherwise of recent action, the US consistently fails to recognize it's reponsibility to the peoples newly under its jurisdiction. That to me is the disgrace, not the adolescent philosophy of its leaders, or the immature democracy so self-evidently present in the USA.

if you read what i wrote ... i DID state that the USA do not need the worlds approval, and that's why these conspiracies theories are bunked. and yeah, the usa do what they want ... that's why the whole world hates them. we reallty dont wanna go back on these debates, just shop at wal-mart and make your country's leaders richer, they need you :)

Do you live in a cave?

The very fact that the U.S. is still losing troops in Iraq while helping the Iraqis get a new government started proves it
"recognize it's responsiblity to the people under it's jurisdiction."

Adolescent philosophy?? Immature democracy?

Yeah, let's take the patented European route by sitting back, sticking our noses up in the air, and theorizing about what's wrong with the country that forgot a U.N. resolution doesn't actually mean anything.

OK, we're agreed on why the whole world hates the U.S.? But we'll have to agree to disagree on whether the U.S. should actually give a shit.

Beyond my failing to see any difference in you or your country, where should I shop that won't enrich the the fat cat leaders of my country?

It is obvious many have not learned from Iraq.

Maybe it should have waited for the OK, since it was wrong.

The UN worked as a tool for the USA for many years, but when it stood in the way of imperialistic plans, it was no longer needed.



That route would have allowed thousands to keep their lives..........

Heinous - Great points dude -

You have a habit of presenting your own opinions as given facts - i.e. that the verdict regarding the Iraq war is already in, the reasons for it were "imperialistic" and "wrong," etc.? People like you have continually added to their laundry list of why the U.S. invaded Iraq, as well as the results from it, almost before it even happened.

Every country essentially has it's own self-interest as first priority when it comes to the U.N.? The United States had every right to be self-interested after 9/11, especially considering other nation's reactions to the attacks were never intended to go much beyond the requisite offical condolences.? Next to Israel, America is on the top of the collective terrorist hit-list and time has proven that few other nations have the stomach in taking a pro-active stance to terrorism.



The pretense you and everyone else who disagrees with the war in Iraq make about "the thousands of lost lives" has always seemed hollow to me.? At least I don't think the casualties are what really drives you....

I have a habit of presenting facts as facts......

Bush has been caught in one lie after another. Just like I said he did.

CNN, 60 minutes, and other media have come forward in the last month and done big stories on this (cherry picked info.) Anderson Cooper has an hour long show running right now about this. Top CIA officials have come forward to give the information to the public.

http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/60min.320.240.mov

Iraq slid into civil war, just as I said it would.

Facts are facts are facts.




Hot air.........

not really, i'm far from a racist myself but i'd probably do the same thing. i know middle eastern people myself but through media you know that the attacks usually happen by groups of these men. it's rational thought to react to fear.

Ok I really gotta jump in here....

As one who served in both wars I think i can say a thing or 2. They are what they are, there not good or evil... there just wars. Sides fight lines are drawn and men die. This is how humans get things done, and always have. This happens to be a purpose that I agree with but even if not, its just the way things are.

The peacenicks would have you think that everyone can find a middle ground and get along, thats just not true and never has been.

I will say that things seem to be working better in Iraq and I am very proud of what my guys have accomplished.

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY

SHHHH.  Don't let them know that the people actually fighting the war and making sacrifices by large find it to be a just cause.  They'll simply dismiss anything you say as being naieve and brainwashed.  Remember, you have to be a 19 year old sociology major or reader of Chomsky to fully understand the world.  SLC can't proove that Bush lied.  He just keeps repeating it and more and more people accept it as fact.  Now that the whole "Bush lied" thing has gotten old, it's time to conjur up conspiracies on how the US government attacked and killed its own people.

They dont get it, never will.

However, im glad they are being honest about who they are, cause they'll never be elected to power again like that.

Give it up already. The head of the CIA has come forward and said Bush lied. Bush was told by the CIA that the intelligence they had was not reliable, but Bush used that info to go to war anyway. It's been all over the media the last month. Just stop it, it is over.


http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/60min.320.240.mov

Wait til this November and you'll see who gets elected. The neo-con machine has imploded by their own admission and nobody believes them anymore. It's one resignation and scandal after the other. Everybody knows who betrayed this country and they are not going to let it happen again. I couldn't be more thrilled to pay 4 dollars a gallon, because it means that the lowlifes who ruined this country will be thrown out on the street like the treasonous mother fuckers they are.

So much for restoring dignity back to the White House.

Got an email today with a pic of a protester holding a sign that reads "Would somebody please give Bush a blowjob so we can impeach him." 

Priceless!!

Weren't you claiming the same thing back in 2004?  How sure you were that Bush and the Republicans were done.  I'm just wondering what you excuse is going to be this time.  There's no DOMA to be the liberal fall boy for their loss.  You should really do some research on basic economics and then you'd understand why gas is exspensive.  It's not as if its only exspensive here, it's like that all over the world.  China and India are demanding and using more oil so the cost has gone up.  Weren't you one of the ones citing that study that said Americans would pay more for gas if the taxes went to the environment?  I guess its easier to blame Bush and Republicans than to do the harder task of researching.  It's people like you that buy into this crap that keep Michael Moore and Air America still in business.

There are many different reasons why gas can be expensive, and I am fully aware of that. But mostly it is because of the wild card in the white house/bogus "war for freedom" in Iraq. Which then causes speculators to push the price per barrel up.

It is no coincidence why gas is up, and you can thank your buddy W every time you are crying at the gas pump. Like I said, I hope it goes up even higher..........We may even get him out before 08.  ;D

If we went to war for oil wouldn't prices be down?

Bogus war for freedom in Iraq? Just be lucky your not near me... Or the familys of my friends who bled into that sand and came home dead. Is that what you want to hear? Liberals just try and try harder to throw every suspicion and doubt upon the Bush White House and the War on Terrorism... and its all just to get power back, You were either partially or entirely in power since the Hoover years; but the gravy train is done. Stop taking the high ground..... your down ..... assume the role

I look foward to Iraq becoming another Baharane and working on the NEWT for president campaign in the next couple years.

I am a solider and will serve any President elected.... Im just glad it wasent Kerry, trying to dumb down the special force requirments to put morons onto my team and make damn sure I get killed;

Great though for SLC and company

Dude, I have said this so many times, what is up with the memory loss?

Future oil.........



I see you value free speech so much you would like to beat up anybody who does not agree with you.

The rest of your post is hogwash and ignore the facts that Bush has been outed by the CIA for lying about intelligence.

Never said i was going to beat you up, thats your imagination thinking violence..... As for the rest of my post it had nothing to do with the CIA and Bush, but since u kindly took up that subject might as well be now.

Since when are liberals fans of the CIA and trust them, it was just 7 years ago when your boy Clinton tried his ass off to gut that very agency.... would have been a bad idea as a whole however wouldent mean much... they rarely get anything right.... Hell thats why us RANGERS call em the Christians in Action.

One way or another, the shootout has been fun but its gunna be I'm gunna be finished now, I enjoy posting but i do this (fighting with liberals in the arena of ideas) enough in real life, so take care

Did our favorite angry, foaming-at-the-mouth liberal forget to take his pills today?

"Betrayed?"  "Lowlifes?"  "Treasonous?"......hyperbole.

Just remember, SLC, be careful what you wish for.....

I thought you were the guy that only deals with the present.  With what's going on right now.

Who's got the "crystal ball?"

See, I knew you liked me.........



I do and I did (past tense, get it?).

It's obvious people are willing to pay it, so why drop prices when they'll buy it at any price?  It could be at $5 a gallon and people would still have to buy it.  Hell, even at $50 per gallon what are people going to do, just stop driving?  We're at the mercy of oil companies, their workers, and anyone who holds stock in them.

Another reason why i drive my harley everytime I can, it's alot cheaper than the car.

Wait until Karl Rove gets indicted and Bush's approval ratings go down even further. SLC, we should meet up for a beer dude!  :beer: :peace: :hihi:

Insiders are saying it looks as if Rove is going to be charged. Libby isn't going to do hard time and take the chocolate submarine for this guy. Bush is down to 31%, which is about to close in on Nixons all time low.......

I'll drink to that!

On all the MCNBC shows that's what they are saying. Bush went in with Rove and they are joined at the hip. If Rove goes down...

They had Rove back what? Five times for questioning? My guess is that he contradicted himself somewhere along the line. Stay tuned during the next couple of weeks???..

Movie Review:


BEFORE READING, PLEASE NOTE: I am in no way affiliated with the production of this film, so if you have questions, concerns or problems regarding the information, research or production of Loose Change, please direct them to Dylan Avery and/or Korey Rowe on the Loose Change 9/11 website. Thanks!

There are few films that horrify me today. As an avid moviegoer, I've pretty much seen it all. I've watched killers hunt victims. I've watched blood and gore spill out all over the screen and I've watched aliens and other monsters stalk their prey. But there is nothing, I mean nothing, more horrifying than what can be seen in the 9/11 conspiracy documentary Loose Change.

Before I get too far in this very personal review, let me first start out by stating a few facts about myself. I may offend some people and for that, I apologize profusely. I will be as honest as I possibly can because this film has altered my perception of the events that took place on 9/11.

First, I am a 9/11 skeptic. The whole thing rubbed me wrong, but I'm not keen to join one wave of opinions over another. I'm not a liberal nor am I conservative. I like certain aspects of both ideologies. I'm not a Democrat nor am I a Republican. I vote for whom I feel is right for our country, not because he or she is a member of any given party. I love to do research about politics, film and other social facets and I love to explore what some are afraid to explore, which may explain my fascination with the events surrounding 9/11.

I am a professed flip flopper, which is not a bad thing as some may think. I believe that changing an opinion makes a great person greater. If he or she is willing to change their views because perhaps their opinion wasn't as truthful or factual as the other, then we can accomplish something truly remarkable as a people.

I'll also be candid with you; I don't really know anyone who's lost a loved one on 9/11. I have a few friends who know people who experienced the event first hand and a few who did lose loved ones. But again, I'm not one of them. However, seeing those who have lost loved ones during the 9/11 attacks, brings tears to my eyes. I understand their loss. I feel their pain. It's my nature. It's who I am.

So with that said...

I found myself a fortunate victim of fate. A few nights ago, while surfing the internet, I stumbled upon a documentary that shocked me. That film was Loose Change, the subject of this review. Normally, I try not to be as personal with reviews as I will here, but a film like this begs us to offer up our opinions on 9/11.

And with that said I can say this, Loose Change is one of the scariest films ever made. For those unaware, Loose Change suggests that the attacks on September 11th, 2001, may not have been orchestrated by Bin Laden or members of al Qaeda. Rather, they were orchestrated by our own government, those who purport to protect this nation and its people.

Now, as I've hinted above, I don't necessarily buy into wacky conspiracy theories. I don't. I like to read about them, but usually with enough research either on the internet or through print sources, one can debunk just about any wacky theory. Just look at the widely debated "intelligent design" vs. "evolution" quandary. Both theories have vast and provable points, yet neither has an absolute truth because one large piece of evidence is missing from both theories. It all boils down to faith. I'm not sure we'll ever know that truth during our Earthly stay, but that's for another debate.

Many have suggested that perhaps the 9/11 debate is just like that--a never ending debate without any real evidence that relies on faith. There is one difference though, there is evidence to support one claim or to debunk another--it's just being hidden away in a dark room somewhere where no one will ever find it.

I do know this--a large majority of the evidence presented in this film, while some of it is somewhat questionable at times, is very solid, if not irrefutable. Evidence is presented from news sources as large as CNN, BBC and Fox News down to small sources like Cleveland's own newspaper, The Plain Dealer (Cleveland plays a large part in the film). These are not wacky liberals with a bias towards one train of thought. Some of the sources come directly from those affected by the Twin Towers collapse. Some from firefighters. Others are credible because of their positions, either in the business or scientific fields.

The film presents a very possible reason why these attacks took place, but never do the filmmakers say that the film and its claims are gospel. They simply attempt to show us a very possible, if not likely truth--one that is horrifying and potentially damaging if found to be 100% factual.

The film shook me to the core. It does what few documentaries or few films, for that matter, have ever done to me. I watched it twice over the course of the first 24 hours. It's scary, sad, often moving and, quite honestly, it makes me fearful for the future. I've done hours of research surrounding the film and I've found several sites that supported and debunked the film (there is also another 9/11 film on the same subject entitled 9/11: In Plane Site which is also supported and debunked in the same manner).

With those hoping to debunk the film, the problem seems to be a human one. People don't want to admit they're might be a problem with their government. I agree with that fear. I don't want Loose Change to be true. If it is, the only thing I can see in America's future is another Revolutionary or Civil War and that's a horrifying thought to be sure. I want the United States Government to answer some of my questions--some of everyone's questions for that matter. We need that.

I honestly don't want to go into many details surrounding the film. I'm not likely to convince you to watch the film by regurgitating some of the evidence from the film here. If you want to watch it, you can or you will. If you don't, you probably won't or won't believe the statements within. All I can do is ask you, the reader, to set aside 90 minutes and watch Loose Change.

Please bare in mind that the film may not be entirely factual, so look for errors, omissions or problems and debate them. Email the filmmakers if you wish. Don't simply take the film for face value. Challenge it. However, remember great journalists like Bill Moyers and Edward R. Murrow who challenge journalists and American citizens to look closer, to research their government and to expose the truth. Filmmakers Dylan Avery and Korey Rowe are trying to follow in their footsteps. They may stumble on the way, but their film is a masterful, well paced documentary that puts Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 to absolute shame.

To all current and future journalists and filmmakers (and to those who made this film): I would offer you a small, but very serious word of warning. Please, for the sake of humanity, try to be honest and as truthful as humanly possible. To quote Tom Knapp from FreeMarketNews.com (who wrote this in his review of Loose Change), "...I applaud those who are attempting to discover the truth of the matter. I do hope, however, that they won't allow their desire to know what really happened get ahead of their ability to discover what really happened and lead them into making untenable claims of their own ... because that would reduce their credibility to the same level as the government's, which is low indeed."

Just moments before writing this review, I was sitting at my computer desk wondering what my children will learn when they are taught about the days of 9/11. I don't want them to learn something that may not be true. I want them to learn the truth about the world they live in. And honestly, I'd like to see the absolute, undeniable truth about 9/11 before they are born.

There are errors surrounding 9/11. It's hard to deny that fact. Not even the government denies it. Find the answers. Ask questions...let's put our differences and hurt feelings aside and explore the possibilities. The truth is there, it may just be hidden behind closed doors. Loose Change opened the doors slightly; now let's open those doors entirely.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

this contradicts some of the "facts" presented in Loose Change.

which do you believe....this website, or loose change???

Any opinions on the newly-released Pentagon video?

What I don't get is how they say it clearly shows the nose of the plane.  That thing could seriously be anything.  From my view (as a massive cynic), it's way too pointy to be the nose of a 747.

Any thoughts from others?

Do you mean this?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX_8FHEuHGU&search=Pentagon%20video

I cant the plane at all in that video, just an explosion.

While in NYC, I sorta wondered, how the atmosphere following the 9 11 attacks affected the city dwellers. 

It was especially an errie feeling when visiting ground zero.  When I say errie, I mean, that particular corner of New York was incredibly silent.

I wondered how people would be able to get back to their normal lives, after their home town was brutally attacked the way it was.  Did this pull people together, or pull people apart?

I had wanted to ask some New Yorkers about this, but felt it might be inappropriate, or stir up some very bad memories. 

That's the video, Danny.  The government is telling us that the little pointy thing at the far right at around the 1:27 mark is the nose cone of a 747/737.

I don't buy it.  Does anyone?

Only the Kool Aid drinkers............

Pause it at the frame on 1:28. No plane.


No way is that an aeroplane nose.

If they wanted to clear it up, all they would have to do is release the tape of the plane hitting the building.

Yet the refuse to.

You're sitting there actually entertaining the idea that anything other then an airplane hit the pentagon and you are calling other people Kook Aid drinkers???!!!

Haven't you heard and seen the interviews of people who saw the plane hit the pentagon with their own eyes?

Damn you're a fool...... :P

You're sitting there actually entertaining the idea that anything other then an airplane hit the pentagon and you are calling other people Kook Aid drinkers???!!!

Haven't you heard and seen the interviews of people who saw the plane hit the pentagon with their own eyes?

Damn you're a fool...... :P

Then why don't they release the tape then and clear it all up?

Only a fool believes that a building can fall without even being hit. Not only fall, but fall straight down.