Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Let Tookie Williams Die
By Ben Johnson
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 1, 2005


TOOKIE WILLIAMS WROTE JUVENILE LITERATURE SO INSPIRING, IT?S A PITY HIS VICTIMS NEVER GOT TO READ IT TO THEIR CHILDREN. Last night, the California State Supreme Court refused to grant a stay of execution to convicted murderer and co-founder of the deadly street gang the Crips, Stanley ?Tookie? Williams Sr. Short of a governor?s pardon, Tookie will (finally) die by lethal injection in San Quentin on December 13 for the brutal murder of four people in 1979. A group of Hollywood?s limousine ?liberals,? radical leftists, and Farrakhanites now urge Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (whom they otherwise despise) to grant clemency ? and he has granted them a private hearing next week to discuss the matter. We wish he?d instead offer them front row seats to the blessed event.

Tookie Williams founded the Crips in 1971, eight years before he and three other men went on a murder-and-robbery spree that netted approximately $250 and left four people dead. The murders were notably gratuitous. Albert Owens ? the clerk in Whittier, California ? lay prostrate on the floor of a back room as Williams shot him twice in the back. Williams told one of the three men who went along on the job he killed Owens because he didn?t want any witnesses to identify him and ?because he was white and he was killing all white people.? He then robbed the Brookhaven Motel, in the process murdering an elderly Chinese couple and their daughter (whom he referred to as ?Buddhaheads?). Tookie killed all his victims with a 12-gauge shotgun, which he held inches from their quivering bodies before pulling the trigger to inflict maximum damage.

 

Clemency was not Williams? first option: escape was. Within weeks of his capture, he devised a plan; he would have two accomplices meet the van that transported the quartet from prison to the courthouse. They would kill the two deputies on board, and Williams would kill the one prisoner who could act as a witness against him in the Owens murder. The survivors would then dynamite the van, so authorities would not immediately know who escaped. Williams went on to plot subsequent escapes, assault prison guards, and order gangland murders from behind bars. His violence and intransigence got him six years in solitary confinement.

 

After the escape plans fizzled, he exploited California?s leftist judicial establishment to the fullest, but the evidence against him was so overwhelming even the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals could not overturn his conviction.

 

In the last 11 years, Tookie got smart and embarked on a massive PR campaign to portray himself as a ?redeemed? former gang member, writing children?s books against the gang mentality. In the process, he became the Left?s latest noble savage. Nearly 20 years after being sentenced to murder, Tookie got to meet Winnie Mandela, Louis Farrakhan, and other VIPs; last Monday, Jesse Jackson and Bianca Jagger dropped by the cellblock. Williams was nominated for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize. (The committee rejected him, either because he did not sufficiently criticize U.S. foreign policy or because he had not killed enough people to qualify.)

 

Williams? purported chrysalis convinced Tinseltown?s Mumia Abu Jamal groupies to beg his clemency: Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Mike Farrell, former Crip Snoop Doggy Dogg, Danny Glover, Anjelica Huston, Jamie Foxx, and Bonnie Raitt ? not to mention such washed-up ?80s leftists as Desmond Tutu, Mario Cuomo, and Jesse Jackson ? have asked that his sentence be commuted. Sixties radical Tom Hayden has vouched for Tookie?s ?transformation,? although admitting Tookie Williams? supposed change of heart ?is not the primary cause of [gang] truces.? (Emphasis in original.)

 

At a ?Save the Peacemaker? rally last weekend, Nation of Islam Western Regional Minister Tony Muhammad (standing in for grand mullah Louis Farrakhan himself) said the United States murdered millions of Indians, which makes it the real criminal:

 

This government needs clemency from God itself. Our president needs clemency; a president who has murdered tens of thousands on foreign soil. He needs to show that he is a redeemed man, and even in that act, President Bush can call for the clemency of Stan ?Tookie? Williams.

 

He then told Gov. Schwarzenegger, ?If you execute, you destroy the hopes of hundreds of young men and women who have gotten involved in gang culture.?

 

Despite his alleged turnaround, prison officials state Williams is still involved with the Crips, directing action from his jail cell for the past eleven years. San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon notes Tookie still maintains an ?unusually large bank account,? being mailed checks 50 or 100 times larger than those other inmates (like Scott Peterson) receive. Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder ? much less expressed any remorse ? and continues to consort with Crips in prison.

 

And he?s never helped the one force that could effectively stop the Crips: the Los Angeles Police Department. Tookie Williams has revealed nothing about the personnel, practices, or operational structure of the gang he co-founded. In his writings, he boasts he ?underwent many years of soul-searching and re-education, without ?debriefing? (another word for ?snitching?).? Snitching, he says, would ?rip my dignity out of my chest? ? an unfortunate image for a man who shot (at least) four people through the torso at close range.

 

Tookie?s good example failed to rub off on those closest to him. The California penal system seems to be holding a Williams family reunion. His son, Stanley ?Little Tookie? Williams Jr., serves alongside him in San Quentin, convicted on a 16-year sentence for second-degree murder of a 20-year-old woman. Another son, registered sex offender Lafayette Jones, is now wanted by Fontana, California, police for allegedly molesting an ex-girlfriend?s 13-year-old daughter at gunpoint, holding the child captive for six hours on the afternoon of on November 13.

 

Based on all this and more, L.A.?s top police officials have petitioned Schwarzenegger to reject clemency appeals.

 

Allowing Tookie Williams to receive the death sentence 24 years after it was imposed by a jury of his peers is not an outrage; the outrage is that thousands of Americans were conned into lavishing sympathy on this murderer instead of his victims and their families, that a street thug who?s learned to manipulate the Left enjoys glowing press coverage, a positive biopic, warm personal relations with Hollywood?s elite, and an honored position in the Crips. (And the New York Times probably considers even this cruel and unusual punishment.)

 

Opponents of the death penalty say a death sentence will keep Tookie from completing ?all the good work? he began in prison. This is part of the exchange when one commits certain heinous crimes: he forfeits the right even to do good works ? just as he denied his four victims the right to write children?s books, design socially constructive grade school curricula, or encourage people to ?reduce, reuse, and recycle.? His good works ? if there are any ? will be continued by good people, the kind who don?t end up on death row for carrying out repeated executions.

 

The Left claims the death penalty is no deterrent but Tookie?s ?powerful story of redemption? is, showing children they, too, could wind up incarcerated. If his incarceration serves as a deterrent against gang violence, his death will make a more ?powerful? tale yet. If it doesn?t, his execution will not interfere with that. Either way, weakness and surrender are never a deterrent ? to totalitarians, terrorists, or common street thugs. 

 

I?m not a father confessor, but I?m fairly certain of this moral arithmetic: Writing children?s books is not an appropriate penance for killing an entire family in as bloody a way as possible, dedicating his entire life to a ruthless pursuit of violence, and founding an organization that has trapped generations of inner city youths into the same destructive cycle. Whether Tookie Williams has achieved ?redemption? is not a concern of the state ? as the idolatrous, secular Left would have it (?immanentizing the eschaton? as William F. Buckley Jr. called it) ? it is a matter to be decided when Stanley Williams Sr. stands before a Higher Authority. Which meeting should arranged with all speed

I don't know what all the confusion is about... Kill the bastard.

What he did was wrong, and he should never be released from prison. But I don't think killing him will solve anything.

I personally don't support the death penalty. I think it's a double standard of ethics. For example, if it's against the law to murder someone, then why is it ok for the law to kill someone? That's my arugement. People who murder should be punished, but putting them to death is a form of revenge.

The death penalty seems ineffective. Murders happen everyday regardless of the threat of death row. Criminals are unphased by this method.

He should be killed in the same way he killed his victims. But since he is a founding member of a gang, everybody worships the freak.

This article, like nearly every article this poster shares with the board, is stilted trash.

I strongly agree with the death penalty in principle, but cannot support it in practice.  Theres no greater injustice a government can commit than to put to death an innocent citizen, and that possibility alone prevents me from supporting it.  An innocent person subjected to life in prison may be equally tragic and agonizing, but its not death.  And while Im almost willing to accept such a decision based on "super-evidence" (video or credible confession, basically), Im unable to shake the inherent implication that while an individual serving life is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, theyre not really as guilty as the guy being sentenced to death.  Its a hard conclusion to make, and I desperately want to support capital punishment - in a perfect system I absolutely would.  In this system, however, I cant. 

I don't support the death penalty either, but there's a problem with your logic there.

For example, if it's against the law to hold a person prisoner against his will, why is it ok for the 'law' to hold someone prisoner against their will?

Think thats says it all

The death penalty is immoral, the product of human instinct we really shouldn't allow to direct policy

Its natural to seek revenge, but the state, as a cold detached entity, should know better

The death penalty doesn't seem to deter anyone - i'd much rather they rot in jail than die painlessly.

If life imprisonment meant that the death penalty would be redundant

In the UK life imprisonement is 25 years. No joke. This country is such a mess.....

It's trash because it doesn't do lipservice to leftwingers? ?Do you think you're gonna find an oped with the details of this piece of shit's life on any media outlet save Fox - and even then maybe only on O'Reilly or Hannity and Colmes, neither of which are "news". ?No, everywhere this is going to be brought up it will read "Nobel prize nominee and former Crip who dedicated his life to halt gang violence....", in other words liberal spin with some screen shots of Schwarzenegger, Surandon and Jackson. ?I'm sorry Booker, I'll stary getting my articles from moveon and infowars.com so we can all shake each other's dicks and agree how evil conservatives and their beliefs are. ::)

What we need is an op-ed article from the other Side, and as usual, the truth lies somewhere in between.  The difference is, my article sheds some light on the use of clemency in our nation's history.  'Clemency for a Crip?', Mark Essig, NY Times.

[...]
In legal terms, clemency can refer to both outright pardons and commutations to lesser sentences. The practice is as old as capital punishment itself. Pilate, after a voice vote of the gathered throng, granted clemency to Barabbas rather than to Jesus.

In the United States, a request for clemency shifts a case from the judicial to the executive branch. In the process, the question changes from whether the prisoner is guilty to whether he deserves mercy. In our colonial period and the early days of the republic, roughly half of those sentenced to death were pardoned. The appeals court system at this time was rudimentary at best, and clemency was about the only way to correct errors at trial or to consider facts that came to light after conviction - and thus to keep the innocent from being hanged.

Often, however, clemency was granted to the guilty as well as the innocent. Before the rise of the penitentiary system in the 19th century, the death penalty was virtually the only punishment available for serious crimes, and it was applied broadly, for rape and robbery as well as for murder. When two young men in 18th-century North Carolina were condemned for counterfeiting, the governor issued a pardon because their crimes could be attributed to "the unsteadiness of youth." The death penalty painted justice with a broad brush, and clemency offered a way to consider finer details.

Mercy was also used to make a moral point. In 1731, two condemned burglars in Philadelphia were hoisted onto a cart that also contained their coffins and paraded through the streets to the gallows, where nooses were placed around their necks. Only then did the sheriff read the men's pardon, which he had carried with him from the jail.

The authorities in many cities performed this sort of theater of the last-minute pardon as a way to dramatize both the severity of the law and its mercy. (This sort of thing became so common that prisoners came to expect it, and some were surprised when the gallows trap opened and plunged them into the void.)

By the 20th century, clemency had become less stagy but no less common. Records show that from 1909 to 1954, North Carolina governors, for example, granted clemency in a third of all death sentences. Florida commuted a quarter of its death sentences from 1924 to 1966.

Since the Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, the practice has nearly disappeared. There have been 999 executions, leaving 3,400 prisoners remaining on death row, and yet only 230 people have been granted clemency on humanitarian grounds (171 of them as part of the blanket grant of clemency in 2003 in Illinois stemming from flaws in the state's judicial system).

What happened? The Supreme Court got involved, as did politics. In its 1972 decision in Furman v. Georgia, the Supreme Court rendered every state's capital punishment law unconstitutional, leading to a transformation of the death penalty. Once a matter left largely to the states, the death penalty became deeply enmeshed in constitutional law, and long appeals became standard.

In some ways, the system improved: cases once appropriate only for clemency - condemnations of the obviously innocent, minors or the mentally incapacitated - were now usually handled by the courts.

But another, less benign cause for clemency's decline has been political. In the 1970's - spurred by voters' fears of rising crime rates - politicians discovered an advantage in appearing to be tough on crime. That is why the decision by Virginia's governor, Mark Warner, to grant clemency to a convicted murderer on Tuesday, on the grounds of evidence that had disappeared, made national headlines.

If Governor Schwarzenegger were to allow this prisoner to go to his death, he would suffer little political damage. Tookie Williams fits no one's definition of innocence. He was convicted of murdering four people - a 7-Eleven clerk shot twice in the back during a holdup, and three members of a family during a robbery at a motel - and as a leader of the Crips he set in motion a criminal enterprise that destroyed countless lives.

But his notoriety, his former viciousness, is precisely what gives him credibility in his current work - persuading young people to avoid gangs. His claim for clemency rests on the good work he is performing in prison, and that is a decision that the court system is not designed to handle. Rather, it is up to Governor Schwarzenegger to decide whether allowing Mr. Williams to continue living behind bars might better serve society's interests than sending him to his death - that is, to decide whether that older conception of clemency still has a place in our culture. (As he weighs this decision, Mr. Schwarzenegger might consider that the last California governor to grant clemency to a death-row inmate was his political hero, Ronald Reagan.)

Commuting Mr. Williams's sentence would almost certainly bring charges that Mr. Schwarzenegger is soft on crime. But the governor has prided himself on being a political maverick. What better way to confirm his strength than by revealing the quality of his mercy?



yeah, that's the fulcrum in this see-saw.  Charles Manson vs. Tookie Williams.  Who gets to live and who gets to die. I agree that it's a difficult choice, but even without the knowledge of ALL evidence (as in your pefect world), does that really preclude the use of the death penalty?  I think the problem is the erratic use of it for political reasons. If it was applied every time to every case for which there was enough evidence to prove guilt, would that deter people from committing heinous crimes?

The state cannot make moral judgements, since that violates the 1st amendment. It works only with logic, and only in its own interests.


Why? The state has no feelings or issues with executing its will. This is the nature of government.


The purpose of the death penalty is retribution, not to deter people.


Life imprisonment is a bad idea. The death penalty is more efficient.

Im not sure, but Im doubtful. ?You have to wonder how often the severity of punishment actually weighs into the decision-making of a perpetrator of such crimes. ?Does a psychopath intent on murdering a child think the act is worth committing only if hell serve life in prison instead of getting death? ?If somebody is capable of killing a child, for instance, are they really rational enough to give significant consideration to the legal ramifications? ?So again, I do support the principle behind the death penalty, I dont exactly buy the deterrent rationale.

Murderers, rapists, etc. are a threat to society. They put people's lives in danger. And further more, they're not being held against their will in prison. They chose to be there.

From a right wing website too......imagine that.

Regardless of where this article came from, why does this man deserve clemency?  As well as the victims who lost their livres to this man, how many other lives did this man shatter by his murders? If the man has no respect for human life , we should not respect his life.

I am not totally against the death penalty. I think the standard should be proof without a shadow of a doubt: DNA, video etc. Something that is irrefutable proof of the crime. Too many of these guys are getting killed on witness testimony or circumstantial evidence alone. Those convicted on that evidence should be given life without parole, to leave a window open for an off chance that something more sound may come forward to prove their innocence (or guilt as it may be.)

I agree the death penalty should be reserved for the harshest crimes where there is no reasonable doubt of guilt. One criminal that absolutely deserves to die who was caught on video abducting his  11 year old victim in Sarasota FL is Joseph Smith. How can a person like that be rehabilitated?

Yea, fuck him. Something like that guy, I wouldn't blink an eye if he got snuffed out tomorrow. Although the idea of him being a wife in prison for a few years  isn't that bad either.

Now theres an idea. Let him be someones boyfriend before he gets put to death.

Why I am against the death penalty:

1. It's not a deterrent. Or rather, it is a deterrent, but no more so than life imprisonment.
2. It's inhumane. No one has the right to take the life of another person--whether it be in an armed robbery, or state sanctioned.
3. In the past, people who have been put to death have later been found to be innocent. It's going to happen again in the future--even with DNA testing, it will happen. And just one innocent person put to death is one too many.
4. It's fundamentally racist. I don't have exact statistics, but blacks make up about half the people on death row, yet blacks account for only 13 percent of the population.

I see....


I think thats whats called ''contradicting yourself'' - so the state can't make a moral judgement and deals with logic - but instigates the death penalty due to a human desire for revenge! ::)

Wakey wakey!


And u wonder why people call u a fascist - more ''efficient'', Rudolf Hoess and u would have been such good mates.

Have you ever looked at the crime statistics for black men? ?Statisically speaking, they committ more violent crimes than other races in America. ?Black culture has even created gangster rap to glorify this behavior. ?Now certainly there are critics who argue that our police force focuses on blacks so more blacks are caught than whites. ?Sociologists argue that the socioeconomic status of blacks forces them into this lifestyle. ?Howver, if you look at the stats for those inidividuals committing the same crime, they get the death penalty equally regardless of race. ?There is a slight difference in the death sentence on blacks if they kill a white woman. ?I don't have these numbers in front of me, but when I get home from work I'll try to post them and their source. ?Regardless, if there is any argument for racism in the death penalty, it stems from society being more outraged at the death of a white person then a black, and again it's a very small percentage, like 4% or so if memory serves me correctly. ?Personally I'm for the death penalty on a more greater scale for more crimes - all violent such as rape and molesting children. ?As a libertarian I find it a waste of our monies to sentence those guilty of victimless crimes (mostly drug related; sidenote if you want to argue racism in our system, look at the arrest and conviction rates of whites and blacks for drug related crimes). ?If America was evr to repeal the death penalty, a decision I would not wholey oppose, I would hope they would create hard labor islands where those put there work under threat of punishment. ?there is no rehabilitation for these people, my father s the supervisor of a prison and something like 66% of all inmates will return for the same crime or one very similar.

In the case of Tookie Williams, there is no question of his guilt. ?The man refuses to stop associating with the gang he created and furthermore refuses to aide those who coul be the most effective form of gang prevention - the police. ?give this man the needle and give it to him now.

Black people are not inherently violent. The whole system is fundamentally racist, oppressing blacks, which leads to greater crime committed among blacks.

Bull.  Ask yourself, are you helping black people by keeping them in a constant state of paranoia about a society that is supposedly against them?  Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell would resoundingly say no.  People in this society need to stop blaming everybody else for their problems and take responsibility for their own lives.

Oh by the way, did you know crime rates for black people (even in Harlem) were a fraction of what they are now back in the pre civil rights days.

I don't think your theory about racism making them commit crimes holds any water.  The resounding reason that blacks commit more crimes is because most black kids are raised in one parent households.  The black kids that are raised in two parent households have about the same crime rates as whites in 2 parent households.

Back in the pre civil rights days the black family was strong, with mostly 2 parent households.  The black family (and the white family for that matter) structure is much worse today than in the pre civil rights days.

True dhat.

So, you think its fine and dandy that Aids gets passed around in our prison system like its going out of style.  You know, a lot of those people get released.  What are you going to say when one of them rapes your daughter and gives her HIV.  It won't be a laughing matter at that point.

I have no sympathy for him or anyone else who commits murders. If he gets clemency, then all death row inmates should as well. The death penalty should be abolished for good. He's going to die eventually, just like everyone else, it's just a matter of time. But it's not up to other people to decide when that time is. That's what separates us from the criminals: respect for life.

Like I said. If there is concrete evidence that the person did the crime then let them die. Guilty by any other means, let them sit rot their sorry ass in jail.

What goes on in prison also goes on out of prison. Although it need not be addressed as it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. And who said it was a laughing matter?

Bill Cosby is a self-righteous asshole. Of course everyone who commits a crime should be held accountable, but we also have to change the system.

I'm confused. You're saying that (1) the crime rate among blacks has gone down since the days of pre-civil rights, (2) blacks commit crimes because they are raised in single parent families (3) back in the days before civil rights (when crime among blacks was higher) there were more two parent familles. Something does not add up here.

I clearly stated that crimes for blacks were lower in the pre civil rights days.  I said this.


And yes, having a 2 parent household is one of the biggest factors in reducing crime.

Thats an opinion.  I think what he is saying is exactly what nees to be said.

Ok, I missread what you wrote. My bad.

No problem

But Cosby still sucks...and he's not funny to boot.

Thats your opinion.  I don't think he is very funny either, but he is getting out the right message imo.

It is not my opinion. Jesus came over my house today for some Pizza and PlayStation2. He told me Bill Cosby sucks and that he's going to hell.

Heads up on JC: He drinks all the beer....hide it before he comes over.

He likes Sharps.    ;D

Nah, it's cool. I just turn on the tap, and JC can turn it to beer like that.

Exactly, besides keeping him alive and locked up for the rest of his life is more of a punishment then killing him. Also if the prison officials want him to stop affiliating with gnag members in jail, then they should just put him in solitary for the rest of his natural born life.

Thats all in the eye of the beholder.

This is very old news now, but I was actually unaware of it...

Robertson Endorses Moratorium On Death Penalty 

Apr. 10, 2000

WILLIAMSBURG, Virginia (CWNews.com) - The founder of the Christian Coalition said on Friday he supports a moratorium on the death penalty because it isn't always applied fairly.

Pat Robertson was the keynote speaker at a symposium at the College of William and Mary law school. Asked about a moratorium after his speech, Robertson said: "I think a moratorium would indeed be very appropriate." He said minorities and poor people often can't afford high-priced attorneys and thus don't always receive the best defense.

The moratorium question was posed by Michael Radelet of Moratorium 2000, a national anti-death penalty organization founded by activist Sister Helen Prejean, the author of "Dead Man Walking."

If we abolish the death penalty, well need more prisons no one wants to live near and more tax revenue no one wants to pay.

If you kill, you should be killed.

1. It's not a deterrent. Or rather, it is a deterrent, but no more so than life imprisonment.
2. It's inhumane. No one has the right to take the life of another person--whether it be in an armed robbery, or state sanctioned.
3. In the past, people who have been put to death have later been found to be innocent. It's going to happen again in the future--even with DNA testing, it will happen. And just one innocent person put to death is one too many.
4. It's fundamentally racist. I don't have exact statistics, but blacks make up about half the people on death row, yet blacks account for only 13 percent of the population.

The second point alone is enough to abolish capital punishment.

well we'll haev to kill the person who kills him then.

Knew the race card would be played here. Its economic, not a case of blatant racism.  People with less income are more apt to turn to crime than someone well off.

There is a mighty difference to killing someone in cold blood, and executing an order from the state to off a piece of human trash.

Praise Jesus.

And Black people in general are worse off than white people.

I can't believe the generalizations being made here.

It can't be determined what group of people commits more murders.

And I'm tired of the old excuse of poverty turning someone to crime. My father was born and raised in a single parent home in the projects, but he stayed in school, went to college and started his own business. And there's lots of other cases where people have done well despite their circumstances.

Tookie isn't on death row because he's black. He's there for murdering four innocent people.

Put aside what should happen, what does everyone think will happen.  It all boils down to Schwarzenegger.

I think Schwarzengger will grant Williams clemency.  The elections last month have left him very vulnerable and he wants to be re-elected.  As governor of a blue state during a time of considerable Republican (and personal) unpopularity, I dont see what good putting Williams to death would do  him.  He must appeal to the states voters, and hes already begun the process by appointing a Democrat and former Gray Davis cabinet secretary, Susan Kennedy, as his new chief of staff.  Williams' recent history will give Schwarznegger the rationale he needs to make the decision. 

I cant think of many reasons for him to reject clemency.  It would be an undoubtedly unpopular decision for a guy who cant seem to get much more unpopular.  The only "positive" I can think of is that it would prove that hes still his own man despite having a Democratic advisor, and cater to his base.  But as the elections have proven, his base isnt enough.

So my prediction: Schwarzenegger grants clemency.   

technically it's killing. if we accept that god doesnt exist, and that we are the only power in the universe. alright. we can make our own laws. but such a religious country having the death penalty is ridiculous.

i am not even entering the ethical / logical debate that the death is useless and brings nothing (but revenge pleasure > sin)

i say we better USE these people. teh convicts. society needs to USE them. make them work. send them to africa and make them rebuild the continent. make them *slaves* for the poors.
1- they'll be useful > we GEt something out of this punishement
2- they'll learn a lot by living among the poors and re evaluate the meaning and sense of life
3- cheaper for us > keeping them in Liberia will be much cheaper than having them in europe or usa.

Your argument makes no sense, because it says in the Bible that those who kill in cold blood shall be put to death.  So I don't understand why you were bringing religion into this?

That is fucked up.  You don't think some businessmen are going to make a business out of this "slavery."

Arnold Denied his clemency. He is being put to death tomorrow morning at 3:00 AM PST

No surprise there.

well this *punishement* concept ain't takin our society anywhere. proof > some country rather kill the guys rather than keeping them locked up (and even if their holly book says otherwise ...)

i say lets make their punishement something useful for US and THEM.
it's not about slavery. it's about helping the poor countries in the world. i'll call jacques chirac immediatly ...

How the heck do you get this from the First Amendment?  It prevents the government from prohibiting people from making moral judgments.  The government makes moral judgments all the time: capital punishment, sodomy laws, homosexual marriage, etc, etc, etc.


I am actually in downtown LA.  Lets hope these people don't riot.

Well good riddance to the murdering sack of shit.  I could care less that he found jesus or whatever and writes kids books about staying out of gangs.  Those things are independant and irrelevant to his case which was tried before a judge and jury.  He kill 4 people in cold blood and his time is past due.  I am a huge fan of capital punishment.  Nothing says your guilty like lethal injection.   ;D

Who wants to keep paying tax dollars to keep a guy like this in prison?  Society needs stiffer punishments.  I was in Singapore in the early 90s.  Crime is almost non-existant.  Their laws are very very strict and the punishments are excessive for even what I would liek to see, but there is no crime.  There needs to be a happy medium between the stauncness of the Singapore system and the laughable liberal system we operate.  Our system is broken.

On another note, that human joke Jesse Jackson was spotted again.  He is the biggest publicity slut I have ever seen.   

Yeah, especially for those wrongly convicted, and the 120-plus exonerated while on death row.

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.   :hihi:

What system do you know of that's perfect?  There is no such system.  Our system is broke for sure, but it isn't the worst on the planet.  The number of innocent men put to death in America as a result of a trial by jury is probably very very very very very very low.  It is still worth having the death penalty to get rid of the trash that litters this world.  In a perfect world, those guilty would be shot to death during apprehension and save all of us a ton of money.  But in lieu of that, I'll take putting them to death asap.  It cost too much money to keep these people in prison.  I think anyone in prison on a life sentence should just be put to death.  There crime obviously warranted a very stiff penalty.  What is the reason to pay for their incarceration till they die if they have no hope of ever getting out?  All bleeding heart rhetoric aside, I'd rather use common sense and save the money.

"These people"   ::)

LOL, too much.

The fact that you find it cute or funny that innocent people have been killed by the state once again shows your simple-minded sociopathic streak.?


Way to make my argument for me.? : ok:


1. Any number is unacceptable.?

2. Id like to see on what youve based the presumption that the number of innocents put to death is "very..." low.?

3. Over 120 people were convicted, set to be put to death, and exonerated.? Thats at least 120 possibly innocent lives tthe state would have ended for crimes that these people didnt commit.?


I dont think you get it.? Innocent people get convicted; it happens far more than youre willing to acknowledge.  The thought of innocent people being killed by their government is unconscionable, to those who arent immature, "tough-talking" sociopaths anyway.

The disregard for loss of innocent life continues.........

On one hand you always tell us how great we are as a nation, how we are better than anybody else. Then when asked to be accountable you lower the bar and compare our actions to those that are worse. So which one is it going to be? Are we the "leaders" of the free world, that promote democracy, liberty and truth? (Also requiring we walk the walk, not just talk the talk.) Or are we now going to stay a plane above the thugs of the world only so we can point their way when the questions get a little to tough to handle?

If hes guilty then I dont care if he gets clemency, it seems like the criminals suddenly have a conscience when its there ass on the line, but somehow forgot about mercy when they murdered.

He didnt get clemency from Schwarzenegger and he is about 4 hours away.

Can u imagine how fuckin scary this shit must me?

U gotta remember that little girl he blew a hole through though.

This guy doesnt deserve any pity.

U think of all the people he has directly and indirectly affected.

All the horrible schools and neighborhoods, drug addicts, drive bys that he helped influence.

This guy wasnt the poster child for clemency.

That's sick... What the hell is wrong with you?   :confused:

The guy claims he is innocent to this day.

He has been nominated for the nobel peace prize five times.

He also has been nominated a few times for the nobel literature prize. He has written books for children condemning violence.

I have seen the pictures and they are indeed grizzly. However the guy says he has evidence that proves him innocent that has not been allowed to present.

It is not like he just showed up and said "Hey I love Jesus now, and I've changed 'for the children'." This man has done a lot of work against violence since being in prison. Regardless if he is innocent or guilty you can not discount that fact, or his nominations for nobel awards. It seems to me that even if he were guilty that (if we claim to be a Christian Nation, half of you guys claim this in your arguments) we would see his work and let him remain in jail until he died. That would be the more humane thing to do would it not? And what if he were actually innocent?

Is the USA the State-sponsored murder capital of the "civilized" world? You conservatives don't trust the government to run the trains on time, but foam at the mouth with glee when it murders its own citizens. What a bunch of fuckin' hypocrites (as usual) you are.

Just pointing out the racism as I see it.

By KIM CURTIS, Associated Press Writer 23 minutes ago

SAN QUENTIN, Calif. - Convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, the Crips gang co-founder whose case stirred a national debate about capital punishment and the possibility of redemption, was executed Tuesday morning.


Williams, 51, died around 12:35 a.m. after receiving a lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison, officials said.

The case became the state's highest-profile execution in decades. Hollywood stars and capital punishment foes argued that Williams' sentence should be commuted to life in prison because he had made amends by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs and violence.

In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov.
Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said Williams boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency.

Williams was the 12th person executed in California since lawmakers reinstated the death penalty in 1977.

About 1,000 death penalty supporters and opponents gathered outside the prison to await the execution. Singer Joan Baez, actor Mike Farrell and the Rev.
Jesse Jackson were among the celebrities who protested the execution.

"Tonight is planned, efficient, calculated, antiseptic, cold-blooded murder and I think everyone who is here is here to try to enlist the morality and soul of this country," said Baez who sang "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" on a small plywood stage set up just outside the gates.

A contingent of 40 people who had walked the approximately 25 miles from San Francisco held signs calling for an end to "state-sponsored murder." Others said they wanted to honor the memory of Williams' victims.

Among the celebrities who took up Williams' cause were Jamie Foxx, who played the gang leader in a cable movie about Williams; rapper Snoop Dogg, himself a former Crip; Sister Helen Prejean, the nun depicted in "Dead Man Walking"; and Bianca Jagger. During Williams' 24 years on death row, a Swiss legislator, college professors and others nominated him for the Nobel Prizes in peace and literature.

"There is no part of me that existed then that exists now," Williams said recently during an interview with The Associated Press.

"I haven't had a lot of joy in my life. But in here," he says, pointing to his heart, "I'm happy. I am peaceful in here. I am joyful in here."

When I heard he died, I knew you would be the first person to post the news. :hihi:

Ding dong the witch is dead

One less piece of shit in the world.  If only the US would enforce capital punishment on child molestors and rapists.

I'm not really for the deathpenalty... But I do think that if you willingly take someone else's life, you should accept that your life can be taken for it as well.

I don't know if I can explain this. What I'm saying is.. I don't think  there should be a deathpenalty. I don't think it does any good. Some people might say that keeping murderers alive is wasting taxpayers' money, but I don't think human lives can be really measured in money, but that's just me. The thing that bothers me a bit is that sometimes you hear people that are being executed saying stuff like "this is wrong, I'm a different person now... nothing good will come out of this, and killing me won't bring the people I've killed back to life"... And while I might agree with the statement. That statement is not theirs to make. Not anymore, not after you've killed someone.

I haven't been following this topic very much, since it has very little relevance to me, or my life... But I do hope that he's made a peace with his god, and that he was ready for what was coming for him.

and ''certain'' posters on message boards.....

i mean come on, Menace 2 Society, Boyz n' the hood, NWA ... we've got some good stuff thanks to the gangs :)

and again, we need to get over the punishment thing. it goes nowhere. we need to use the people who fails and do wrong.
find process that will 1- make a use of them  2 - make them better

killing em: doesnt make em better, and make us worst - i mean, if hell exists, i know some cons here are going straight to that place ( uh uh ... james, Guns N' Rock Music ...)

so we send them all to africa, they are forced to rebuild these countries. and they will learn the value of life.

and again, it's all a matter of position. Guns N' Rock Music, a question, if a close person in your family does something bad and is sentenced to death ... would you be please or would you want this person to change and be forgiven ?

if smart people can think  like that in th US, i wonder what it would be if Religion wasn't strong there. i mean, now that i hear that, i'm kinda glad that Jesus still has some power in the USA, otherwise they would lose the last drop of morality they have.

thank you jesus ;)

State sanctioned murder is wrong and barbaric in any instance. 2 wrongs do not make a right and those who justify capital murder under the cloak of christianity should question their interpretation

Racism?  What an absurd charge.  First, I never pointed to any one ethnicity.  Second, I was simply referring to the protestors that have been running around downtown L.A. for the past few weeks.  Third, Los Angeles has been known to have a few riots when either bad events or good events occur.  In fact, they usually occur in downtown.  Finally, the mayor, Governor, and other state officials have been called for calmness in the wake of the execution.  Certainly, I am not the only one that would be worried.

Racism.  You throw that term around far too often.  It is your way of simply attacking those that you tend to disagree with.  You are flat out ridiculous.  Jarm got mad at Popmetal for calling the moderators a Gestopal, but the moderators let this idiot throw out the term racist left and right.

are you saying you want to see Guns N' Rock Music die? AND others on these boards?

are you being serious?

Yah, so does every other criminal in prison. ?Too bad they had witnesses, and he bragged about it to his friends.

This is a joke. ?A local radio guy, Bill Handel, also got nominated for a nobel prize recently to show how easy it is to be nominated. ?You simply need any person from a national assembly to put your name forward. ?I doubt you have to twist someone like Maxine Watters' arm to hard to get her to do that. ?There is no threshold that you have to meet to get nominated. ?It has been a campaign for sometime to get this guy off of death row.

They have sold about 300 copies, despite the claims to the contrary. ?The local radio station also read some of his nobel prize literature on the air. ?I'll just say, it was hardly John Steinbeck, let alone Dr. Seuss.

In fact, this guy has never shown any remorse for the killings. ?He supposedly mocked the victims when they were crying while being killed. ?Furthermore, he didn't exactly separate himself from the gang life once he went to prison.
20 years of appeals. ?People have been asking for this so-called evidence all week, I haven't seen anyone come forward with it.

I'm interested to know Booker, are there not other factors that put you off capital punishment other than the possibility of innocence (granted one of many good reasons in my view).

Other posts Ive read by you really paint a picture of a social democrat  and I would have expected that you would have a moral dillema when faced with capital punishment

I live in New Zealand and the issue has recently come to the surface in this part of the world as an Australian was put to death in Singapore for Heroin trafficking. A young 23 kid made a stupid, foolish decision, trying to get his brother (who was in debt to loan sharks) out of trouble and paid for the mistake with his life. I realise this is a different kind of situation to Tookie as he didn't kill anyone. But it did raise the isssue and there was a lot of debate down this way about the death penalty.

Personally, I find it repugnate and the day that Australian kid was executed a few weeks ago, I felt sick to my stomach.

Two wrongs just dont make a right in my view - killing is wrong and no one, and I mean no one has the right to make the decision to end life. Coupled with this you have the research that proves it is ineffective as a deterrant. States that have capital punishment have higher incremental murder rates per capita than those without.

Just wondering why you make the comment:

"I desperately want to support capital punishment - in a perfect system I absolutely would. "

Oh you know, probably tongue and cheeck, just like when somebody says AQ should bomb the democrat national convention, or attack San Fran....they were only kidding.

"And can you imagine the improvements that we would see if we forced sterilization of certain groups?  If we sterilized drug addicts, the hopelessly impoverished and all liberals...wouldn't this country improve almost over night?"

Charity Case

Why getting your panties in a wad when the same type of comments come back to you?

I was watching the coverage last night (around 3:30 am Eastern time) and it was interesting how FOX News reported the execution compared to every other network. They spent most of their time condemning the anti-death penalty supporters.

Well Ive gotta say, Ive actually reevaluated my outlook on the death penalty within the past few days, though Id been thinking about it for months. I once supported it, then I rejected it primarily on the reason I gave in that post - the possibilty of innocence and the intrinsic unfairness in issuing some convicts a death sentence and others a life sentence.

My reasons for supporting it were actually the standard pro-death rationale: lack of sympathy for perpetrators of heinous crimes, unwillingness to support them for life, avoiding the risk of putting other prisoners/prison workers at risk, and acceptance that its fair - you take a life, you have your life taken. But as I explained, Ive held these principles with the cognizance that the death penalty doesnt serve proper justice in reality.

I can still identify with those feelings when I see guys like the "BTK Killer," John Wayne Gacy, Robert Couey, or any of these serial/child-killers. ?When I witness the "BTK Killer" confess (credibly, I should add) to those acts without remorse, I cant think of a practical reason to keep him around. ?His case is different from someone like Tookie Williams', who, even if he was indeed guilty, strived to change and help society. ?



Yeah, I heard about that story, and it is awful. ?And last night, I felt sick to my stomach as well.

Beside the callous, petty reasoning Arnold Schwarzeneggar provided in his denial, I didnt like the entire situation. ?I think allowing somebody nearly 30 years to change and attempt to redeem themselves only to execute them is in fact cruel and unusual. ?Im beginning to agree with the perspective that, aside from the obvious practical flaws, the state should transcend killing people. ?If theres a scant few convicts who volunteer for the death penalty, I would support it. ?Otherwise, Ive become very uncomfortable with it from a moral perspective. ?

He takes the ball and runs the other way...........

I am certainly not trying to build an innocent case for this guy. I could have sat and disputed the post above, but I could care less about innocence or guilt. What the point is ( which you are ignoring to create some other fight) is that while he was in prison he tried for some time to make amends through his work. Regardless of how he was nominated, the fact that his work was recognized at all means something. Does it mean he was worthy of a prize? That is not relevant to my point. The point is that if he has done all this work while in jail, and would it be humane to just kill him in the end anyway? Even the wife of one of the victims came forward to say she thought he should just stay in jail the remainder of his life.

He shot a man twice in the back while he begged for his life. He killed other people as well, but that one murder has earned him a spot in hell. Burn Tookie burn.

You guys think he is gonna burn in hell huh?

Yet you call civilian casualties "collateral damage" in the same breath.

Condoning that kind of violence against your fellow man (children no less) while condemning the act of murder by another is hypocritical at best. Almost as bad as pulling the trigger yourself, since your tax money pays for the bombs and bullets that "liberate" the middle east, while you cheer from the sidelines.

To me that is the most cowardly kind of murderer, since you let somebody else do it for you and hide behind lies while it happens.

If he was guilty, ten to one you'll see him one day yourself. I heard the coffee is cold down there in hell too.....what a shame.

I see the same few people still think throwing insults around is fun.

What's the problem? You think we need you to drag the board down to 3rd grade level "discussions"?

You think civilized discussions are overrated and insults are so much more fun?





/jarmo

Actually, I addressed exactly what you posted, unlike your inability to address my reply to your groundless charges of racism. ?I was simply making the point that he hasn't done that much, nor has he changed that much. ?He didn't help that many people as alleged. ?He sold only 300 copies of his book. ?The point is, this was simply a campaign by those that are against the death penalty or those that will cry anytime someone black is convicted of a crime (and call me racist if you wish, but there are some that feel this way, and not to say they shouldn't considering the history of corruption of many police departments in framing blacks).

I am not a strong supporter of the death penalty. ?In fact, I tend to disfavor it. ?Nevertheless, the arguments that people make for this guy drive me crazy. ?First, they try and claim that there wasn't sufficient evidence and that he probably didn't commit the crime. ?Absolutely ridiculous. ?There is no basis for this whatsoever.

Second, they try to paint this guy as a martyr. ?They claim he has helped so many, and that he was nominated for a nobel prize. ?In addition, they try and make it sound like he has been remorseful and has tried so hard to steer people away from his former life. ?This is a bunch of BS. ?As I previously stated, anyone can be nominated for a nobel prize, his book hasn't had very much impact, if any, and he has never once apologized for what he did. ?In fact, he helped strengthen the prison gang system.

If you are against the death penalty then simply say it. ?Don't try to turn this killer into a saint/martyr. ?To do so is a slap in the face to the people that he killed.

He sold only 300 copies of his book.  The point is, this was simply a campaign by those that are against the death penalty or those that will cry anytime someone black is convicted of a crime (and call me racist if you wish, but there are some that feel this way, and not to say they shouldn't considering the history of corruption of many police departments in framing blacks).

Second, they try to paint this guy as a martyr.  They claim he has helped so many, and that he was nominated for a nobel prize.  In addition, they try and make it sound like he has been remorseful and has tried so hard to steer people away from his former life.  This is a bunch of BS.  As I previously stated, anyone can be nominated for a nobel prize, his book hasn't had very much impact, if any, and he has never once apologized for what he did.  In fact, he helped strengthen the prison gang system.

If you are against the death penalty then simply say it.  Don't try to turn this killer into a saint/martyr.  To do so is a slap in the face to the people that he killed.



You are still holding onto your BS. It does not matter how much he sold of the book. Would it mean he was really sorry if he sold more copies?  :hihi:

I called your "Those people" comment racist, it certainly had racist tones. I don't think I built up my point around him being black. I didn't mention race in that post.

He said he did not do it til he died. Would you say you were sorry for something you did not do? Supposing you did not do it?

I'm not trying to make him into anything he is not. Don't try to lump me in witht that group to create some strawman to tear down. I am for the death penalty in some cases and against in others. I have made this clear.

I have also made my point clear on this issue in particular, and I am not repeating myself for you GNRNIGHTTRAIN.

How was society advanced by his death?

Well, when you sit and claim that he has done good, and has been nominated for a nobel prize as a reason to not institute the death penalty in regards to him (which you did do), I think it is quite relevant.

Yet, you fail to specifically address my response to that post. ?You throw out the racist card far too often when someone undercuts your argument.

I never said you did. ?Only time you mentioned race was when you called me a racist.

He admitted that he did it to his friends. ?Furthermore, this guy strengthened his gang from prison.

Then why do you make the same groundless arguments that these people make?




Let me just say, this case particularly makes me against the death penalty in California.  I would far rather have this guy sit in a prison his whole life than painted as a saint by those on the left and those that are against capital punishment.

For Christ sakes man. Do you argue just to hear yourself?  ::)

There was nothing to address in the racist comment you made. You said you hoped the would not riot. You said "those people" which had racist tones. I pointed that out.

The rest is you blowing hot air. Reread my posts for any questions.

When you refuse to reply, it is a tell-tale sign that you recognize that you are wrong.  You are just so darn stubborn.

Those people means "those against the execution."  Just to let you know, not only blacks riot.  Remember the WTO in Seattle?  If anyone drew the connection between rioting and blacks it was yourself.

no panties in a wad here. just surprised someone would wish death on a fellow gnr poster, that's all.

are you implying that i said "AQ should bomb the DNC" or SF??

cause i have no idea what you're talking about.

so by your own assinine standards, you're a liar, and a fucking moron.

Well, hoping that democratic convention, or that san fran gets attacked is the same thing really.

I did not say you did say that dude. But I did say that others did say those very things. Your buddies here on this forum.

Again Izzy, you are a fascist piece of garbage. ?You advocate the systematic discrimination and persecution of minorities and now you're advocating people should be executed because they disagree with you - even worse you lump them in the same category as pedophiles and rapists. ?You absolutely are the epitiome of fascism, and SLC is your Rudolph Hess - as he's always there to defend your wacko claims even though it discredits him more and more.


Here's the thing SLC, Sandman or Shades (whomever referenced the attack on the DNC) wasn't advocating that attack or even hoping it would happen. ?Thus why your scream for the CIA was pointless; they were simply explaining how ironic it would be if the liberals were the ones who were attacked since they are the weakest on defense. ?Izzy however repeatedly condoned and excused the horrendous treatment women receive in muslim nations. ?You fools keep digging yourselfs deeper and deeper as was shown when no one came to defend you clowns in your latest babble.

LOL, oh yea....like you really meant all the white people down there, haha, you are so full of it! The people that are "anti death penalty" are the ones who may set the place on fire. haha, sure, that is what you meant by your little comment.

Still up to the same crap you were when MCT shamed you last time!

There you go stretching for a point again. Are you trying to make up for Shades since he is gone now?

Question for the Mods:

Is there a reason this guy can throw out the term "racist" with impunity?

PS: whether you like it or not, I am not GNRNightrain.? Go ahead and keep calling me him if it makes you confortable.  If you read half of my posts you would probably realize that our viewpoints differ in many respects.  I can tell you are getting upset SLCPUNK.  I guess it doesn't feel good to have your groundless attacks called out and your arguments completely refuted.  Instead of attacking the arguments you call names, attempt to discredit, and dodge the issues. 

So it's ok for you to call people liars, morons and racists on an hourly basis with no justification, but when I call Izzy a piece of garbage (for anyone who objectively is looking at this would agree it is merited) you attack me?? Yea, there's nothing irregular about your comments? ::).? And for the record, I had no idea Shades had been banned (I don't get off to tracking posters like you do) but I'm really suprised that you and Izzy are still here after the amount of lies you create and shit you stir up.

Saying you are stretching is an "attack"? Wow, even that is a stretch!

What lies? I haven't lied about anything. I have called only racists and bigots for what they are, using their own posts as references.

You took one comment Izzy said and worked as hard as you could to spin it (Interning for Bill O'reilly?) Then after it got burried a few pages into a thread you start repeating it as if it were the truth. Only reason is to take the heat of what you feel is an unjust assessment of you and your buddies. There is no truth, only spin, and I don't think anybody is buying it. Except for the few of you that are left here on this board.

 :o

Of course not, i want him to have a long and happy life, to find true love and make lots of money.

Wait...is he being sarcastic there? Or was the first point the sarcastic one - maybe they both are? Maybe its a joke, maybe he means it, oh the controversy!

Curious, that i spend so much time denouncing the death penalty and yet here i am accused of supporting it :confused:

I am impressed at how well people pretend to know posts they have never actually read!



Insults again, a sure sign of someone desperately insecure.

Lets read on to discover what posts of mine have been twisted and re-written to say all kinds of curious things....


But of course...that u can't find a post of mine that mentions anything of the sort shouldn't stand in the way of you saying it


I also think white people should be killed, all of them. ::)

Here we have a further delightful case of a desperate attempt to put words in my mouth - why do i get the impression if i posted my shopping list u'd claim it shows how i summugled secrets to the Russians in the 1920's?

A stauch opponent of the death penalty makes a joke and that is.....advocating....something. Hmm, looks like you've got confused somewhere :hihi:

Are ur responses actually dependent on what i say or do u have a series of generic texts to hand which u copy and paste in?


Oh they are much worse, let the rapists go i say! ::)


In the way i ridicule your nonsense and expose your rascism?

and by what definition of fascism are u using? There are many schools of thought as to what 'fascism' is, Ian Kerhsaw writes a superb book looking at whether Nazism is actually fascism at all or whether the term fascism has been inflated to cover any right right dictatorship at the expense of the unique trait of Nazi Germany.

His conclusion is so well written its next to impossible to argue with him, as to what that conclusion is, why don't u read up on it? Excellent read.

On a lighter note,

How can u denounce me as being a ''liberal'' half the time and a fascist the other? :hihi: I am both the summer and winter? What a complex character i must be in your eyes!


Man that hurts :hihi:, almost as much as a post of yours that didn't need to lie would. By the way, still waiting on one of those.

If u knew anything about Nazi Germany u wouldn't have used Mr Hess as the comparison, do u just pluck names at random from google searches?


U see, u should have used Himmler or maybe at a push Goebbells for the comparison, (hell, maybe even Bormann or Speer!), as they were far more in the sycophantic lacky mold. Hess's defection really counts against the whole vibe your going for. I assume thats the point u were trying to make?



I did? ::) Got a quote for that, bub?

And what may i ask has this to do with the topic?

Women recieve 'horrendous' treatment do they? Done a lot of research on this have u? Or perhaps u just take extreme views and make them into a pseudo-reality?

And when i address your ignorance and vicious sterotyping, i'm the villian?

If a majority of muslim women are being treated ''horrendously' that surely conveys a view that Muslim males are a cruel and misoginistic bunch. Are u saying Muslims are cruel and misognistic? If your not, then are u sure these women are really being treated ''horrendously''? Now be very careful about applying sterotypes to 1 billion people - there is a word we use for that kind of behaviour. ?

Who is the fascist again? :rofl: :hihi:


The insults again, they appear right where other posters arguments and sensible comments go

Hey buddy, i have managed to get you rather rattled simply by highlighting what you've been saying - its the old point about how insecure you are with your views.

Any time u'd like to leave ur rather pitiful insults and lies at the door and have a talk i'll be there waiting. But calling the person who spends far too much time trying to deal with outrageous ultra-right wing nonsense a 'fascist' is the kind of work i'd expect of a child.

Take a deep breath, relax. Its okay.

Some sage advice, if you wish to tear my views to bits, and your very welcome to do so, then please use some quotes, making stuff up is just weak.

Endlessly going on about my views on the Middle East is somewhat curious, (especially in this thread!) as my point has always been let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. I refuse to entertain the hypocrisy of claiming i know how best to order society when my nation is invading nations for oil. What u bizarrely take as strong views is actually my refusal to make any comment on the matter at all!

How mixed up are u?
 

Are you serious?

You said "I hope those people don't riot because I'm downtown" blah blah blah. The last people to riot in LA were what color? The man on trial is what color? Can you sit there with a straight face and claim you meant the whites from the LA burbs were gonna burn the city down? Reminds me of your Shaft DVD statement during Katrina. Same thing: you made a racist toned comment. "All they are going to lose is their Shaft DVDs" or some nonesense like that. Then you back track and say you just meant the people in NO or whatever. Give us all a break already. Then you come back all insulted because somebody dare call you for what you are: a bigot. Saying we just name call and to avoid the subject matter. Sure buddy, of all my 4500 posts I have never addressed issues, talked seriously or used facts as basis for my arguments. I've only thrown out insults to deflect all the truths you guys put on the table.  ::)

Pulease!!!!

You can't be serious..........

actually, you're the one making racist comments. berkeleyriot did not. he was clearly referring to all the people that were threatening to riot - many of which were white.

I watched some of the coverage of the execution last night on Fox news. It was live outside of the prison with a bunch of protesters huddled around this reporter. A man kept saying, "Fox lies" while the reporter was talking. ?And then a lady tried to put a sign in front of the camera that read, "Fox lies, Tookie is innocent". One of camera crew guys tried to take her sign away and she hit him with it. It was insane.

Sure he was.......



Fox needs more of that.

you made some strong comments against bill o'reilly making those AQ/SF comments. yet you think it's ok for izzy to make a serious, offensive tongue in cheek comment. why are you such a hypocrite?

if you thought it was wrong for BO to make that joke, you should feel the same way about a comment that is actually more direct and offensive. hypocrite.

and i think everyone would agree, you're the last person that should be accusing anyone of getting their "panties in a wad", the way you frequently do. cause let's be honest, you're obviously an overly-sensitive, angry, hyper person.

and you continue to lump a group of us together on these threads. just because we have SIMILAR views does not mean we agree 100% with each other, or back 100% of what each of us says.

i think it shows a lack of intelligence to ASSUME that i agree with others opinions on certain issues, just because i may share some common beliefs with them.

I found it rather pathetic how the media tried to act like Tookie was tryin to intimidate them.

Lets see, He is on a table, strapped down, with poison bout to run through his veins, how the fuck is he gonna try to intimidate anyone?

I think he was just lookin at them to make them feel bad for supporting it.

All I wanna know is, when is the person who injected him and started the poison drip gonna be arrested?

Do u think God sees that as murder?



One ignorant thing I saw last night on the news was, some stupid fuck had a sign up that said "Stop Killin our Prophets"

Tookie aint no prophet and that was quite disturbing to think people believe that.


FoxNews coverage was horrible.

I wanted to hear the witnesses and what they had to say but the stupid fuckin Fox people wouldnt shut up with their commentary so I switched it to CNN.

Locked.

One step closer to banning these kinds of topics.

You all should be proud.  : ok:



/jarmo