Here Today... Gone To Hell!

 
Fiery riots spread beyond Paris

This isn't get much coverage over here.  I know there are plenty of French on this board.  What is up with this?



Friday, November 4, 2005; Posted: 10:18 a.m. EST (15:18 GMT)

Manage Alerts | What Is This? PARIS, France (CNN) -- Rioting erupted for an eighth straight night in the impoverished suburbs of Paris, with angry youths setting fire to a school, a bus depot, three warehouses and hundreds of vehicles.

Although officials said the unrest late Thursday and early Friday was less intense than in previous nights, the disturbances spread outside the Paris region for the first time.

Violence was reported in some 20 communities around Paris and across the country, including areas near Rouen in northern France, Dijon in the east and Marseille in the south.

In Dijon, teenagers torched five cars, regional official Paul Ronciere said. The youths were apparently angered by a police crackdown on drug trafficking in their neighborhood, The Associated Press reported.

Eleven more cars were set ablaze at a housing project in Salon-de-Provence near Marseille, police said.

In the Seine-Saint-Denis region to the north and east of the French capital, youths fired buckshot at riot police vehicles in Neuilly-sur-Marne, AP quoted the area's top official, Prefect Jean-Francois Cordet, as saying.

A group of 30 to 40 youths harassed police near a synagogue further east in Stains, Cordet said.

However, police reported seeing fewer large groups of youths rioting, and "contrary to the previous nights, there were fewer direct clashes with the forces of order," AP quoted Cordet as saying.

"The peak is now behind us," Gerard Gaudron, mayor of one of the worst-hit suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois, told France-Info radio. He said parents were determined to keep their teenagers at home to prevent unrest.

"People have had enough. People are afraid. It's time for this to stop," AP quoted Gaudron as saying.

Officials said 187 vehicles and five buildings -- including three sprawling warehouses -- were destroyed overnight in Seine-Saint-Denis, located between central Paris and Charles de Gaulle airport.

More than 400 vehicles were destroyed across the entire Paris region, including about two dozen buses at a terminal near Versailles, authorities said.

Police detained 27 people and reported two injuries -- one a policeman and another a handicapped person badly burned during an arson attack on a city bus, Reuters reported.

The latest violence flared despite the presence of about 2,000 additional police officers -- and despite hopes that festivities marking the end of Ramadan would calm tensions.

Much of the rioting has occurred in areas heavily populated by poor African Muslim immigrants and their French-born children who are weary of poverty, crime, poor education and unemployment.

The unrest has drawn attention to simmering discontent among much of France's Muslim population -- at an estimated 5 million, Western Europe's largest -- many of whom often complain of job discrimination and police harassment.

While the troubled suburbs of Paris and other French cities are often the scene of unreported car-torchings and other small-scale violence, AP reported, the current unrest is unusual in terms of its duration and the way it has spread.

The rioting began last Thursday after two teenagers of African descent -- Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17 -- were accidentally electrocuted while apparently trying to escape from police by hiding in a power substation in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois.

Officials have said police were not chasing the boys, and the Interior Ministry has released a preliminary report exonerating officers of any direct role in the deaths, according to AP.

On Friday, the brother of one of the victims called for youths to "calm down and stop ransacking everything."

"This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," Siyakah Traore said on RTL radio, AP reported.

A police union official has proposed establishing a curfew and bringing in the military to help handle the rioting, while some members of the opposition Socialist Party have suggested the police should withdraw from the communities to quell the unrest.

The pressure is on
The violence adds to the pressure on Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who cancelled a trip to Canada this week to tackle the situation and soothe a public row between his ministers over the government's response.

Vowing to restore order, de Villepin on Thursday called a series of emergency meetings with officials throughout the day, including a working lunch with Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.

"I will not accept organized gangs making the law in some neighborhoods. I will not accept having crime networks and drug trafficking profiting from disorder," Villepin said at the Senate in between emergency meetings.

The situation has sparked a war of words between de Villepin and Sarkozy, his political rival ahead of 2007 presidential elections.

Speaking to parliament Wednesday, de Villepin demanded punishment for lawbreakers but used calmer language than that used by Sarkozy, who has been criticized for calling the protesting youths "scum."

"Let's avoid stigmatizing areas .... let's treat petty crime differently to major crime, let's fight all discrimination with firmness, and avoid confusing a disruptive minority with the vast majority of youngsters who want to integrate into society and succeed," he said.

In some areas, unemployment runs as high as 20 percent -- more than twice the national average, de Villepin told lawmakers.

On Wednesday, President Jacques Chirac called for calm, adding that "the absence of dialogue and an escalation of a lack of respect will lead to a dangerous situation."

"Zones without law cannot exist in the republic," Chirac said.

CNN's Chris Burns and Jim Bittermann contributed to this report

Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.
 

well

the root of the problem is communautarism. 

but what ingnited these *riots* was a incident where 2 kids were running from .... something , some say the police, and got trapped INTO a electric station and got zapped. (outside paris)
i think it's kinda wierd that some people would be scared enough to run INTO such a dangerous place... i mean, i'm get chased by the police i dont jump out of the window ... i'd rather get arrested ... so it's wierd.

our minister sarkozy is not a sweet talker. he is more like a demagogue (an orator who appeals to the passions and prejudices of his audience)
and uses strong words that appeals to stupid rednecks.
and he got the suburbs mad (he was looking for that i guess...)

and all of it is being used in the political fights inside the governement (sarkozy against prime minister + president)


so.... i dunno,
appart from that there is the opening of a new Nike store on the champs elysee tonight ... ?_____?

It seems similar to racial riots that we have in the states.? I thought it might have been something bigger than one incident, a culmination of things.

You can see a Video of the riots here http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,47-0@2-3226,54-705645@51-704172,0.html

They are Muslims who are rioting-correct? Hmmmm. Just waiting for someone to blame America. ;D

they might be muslim they might not be. there are chances that they are, cause thats their community. but the other poor and pissed off kids there dont have to be muslim. this for once, is not a religion fight.

the problem, and that's everywhere, is when you get people from a same origin together.
and then there are people that still continue to praise their 'origins and communuity feeling" : "im black ! i'm jew ! i'm christian! im this ! im that ! "

people need to be nothing.
and we must blend people together. i mean, look at the bronx, or any ghettos. same issue.

I know-believe me. America is bitterly divided. North vs South, Red state vs Blue State, black vs white, war vs anti war, poor vs rich, Christian vs Jews vs Muslims. People call themselves African-Americans and they don't have any ancestors remotely from Africa! At least, nobody in the last 400 years. It's fucked up. I was just waiting for someone to blame America because the world blames us for everything else. :rant: The problem is you can't blend people together. You can't breed a tiger and a horse. People are just animals. You have to live and let live-just respect each other's differences. It's when you try to force your agenda on someone else that the problems start. Iraq and Vietnam are a perfect example.

well the difference between a black kid and a white kid is not really what separate the horse and the tiger ... ? ____?

and yes you can blend people. and stop telling them that they are special, that they are jew, or black or muslim. people are people. they're what they are by what they do, not where they come from or look like ....

Paris is not only the "Champs Elys?es", The Eiffel Tower, Wine, Champagne and romantic ballads. Around Paris it's Gaza or Kaboul, even the Police, the cops, don't enter in those surbubs unless they are armed.

Video on CNN, pretty well done and explained http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/free?ch=49799&cl=156089','playerWindow','width=793,height=608,scrollbars=no'));

.... you're a foo :) ;)

and champagne is NOT from paris ;)

Right I'm a fool, finish your sentence next time...
Anyway, It's been years I've said the surbubs in paris are done, for many reasons.

I'm going to borrow part of an ANUS.com essay to help explain why your view is wrong. I'm a decent thinker, but not so much a writer.

"Crowdism

When one looks at life analytically, it is clear that it has many different parts which operate best in certain contexts; to think non-linearly is to understand that each has its place contributing to the whole, operating in parallel. Crowdism is the desire expressed by the greatest number of us, who have no facility for leadership and no ability to think past the direct consequences of their actions, for linearity, so that none are above or below others. It is an emotional response to the inequality of nature, and is oblivious to the fact that in nature equality is achieved through the singular beauty of life which can be experienced by all. Crowdism is a revenge impulse which wishes to destroy those who have exceptional abilities or who have risen above the crowd; it is the ultimate in-group, out-group response. Crowdists by definition do not think of long term implications to their potential actions, and thus are terrible rulers, but as they think emotionally and their thinking is limited to their own desires, they wish not to have any above themselves as they find it insulting to their generally low-self-esteem personalities. While anyone who is incapable of seeing beyond the immediate consequences (linear thinking) of their actions is an Underman, Crowdists are those who take being an Underman and make it into a political statement: tear down the superior, exalt the inferior, and we'll all be "equal." Unfortunately, emotional reactions fare poorly in the real world, as it is much more carefully constructed than some out of control cognitive dissonance resopnse, and therefore, as history shows us, Crowdism destroys every civilization where it gains predominance. However, it seems Crowdism is a part of the life span of every civilization, usually immediately preceding its demise into third-world status, because as civilizations grow their citizens take them for granted, and seek to "improve" upon a model they do not understand as they have not known struggle. Crowdism, then, is like getting fat: a result of idleness and lack of clear view of reality. Crowdism can take on any host, whether Communism or National Socialism, Greenism or Christianity. The only response to Crowdism is an insistence upon meritocracy, including of bloodlines, so that one can create a leadership caste which sequesters the detailed knowledge necessary for rulership. However, the only kind of society that can maintain such a caste is one with a rigorous ascetic tradition, and a desire to remove the excessive mediocre people who will otherwise gain a numerical majority, demand "democratic" representation and thus overrule those better suited to lead. The previous sentence is a servicable description of what has happened to the West, and why it is now in crisis."

When people get to mixed (culturally, although race is often involved, but it's the culture part that matters), they tend to begin to value the lowest common denominator. Ghettos are an unfortunate consequence of a minority group living within a larger nation, but it's better than losing one's culture and history. Ghettos are usually poor, but they allow minorities to hold onto their values. I have the Irish and Italians in mind, since I have some in my ancestry, but my family doesn't celebrate our native culture. We're middle class, but I think culture is better than new televisions and computers (this one's 4 years old and still great!)

France needs to realize that it would be best for their immigrants to live their own way as long as it doesn't interfere with French values. They're the guests in the French house, so to speak. However, imposing excessive integration (head scarf ban, etc) is where the tensions come from. Learn to live with differences, don't try and destroy them. That would fix a lot of these kinds of problems.

When you let in large numbers of immigrants you are going to have problems.  No matter how liberal and nice you think you are (ie sweden).

 

Not correct at all !
And riot is a strong word .... it's not thousand of youth rebelling against the police ... it's hundreds of them burning cars in several surburbs near Paris -
The matter is the thing is spreading each night ! It's a kind of contest between these neighborhoods to know the one that will burn the most cars and schools, everything that can be in their minds related to the state.

And I agree with Watever for most of the things he just said - Nesquick, no it's not Kaboul yet ;)

I wasnt aware of the statute of limitations on ancestry.? Thanks for the enlightenment.? : ok:

Definition of the word riot:
1. [n]  a wild gathering involving excessive drinking and promiscuity
2. [n]  a public act of violence by an unruly mob
3. [n]  a joke that seems extremely funny
4. [n]  a state of disorder involving group violence
5. [v]  engage in boisterous, drunken merry-making; "They were out carousing last night"
6. [v]  take part in a riot; disturb the public peace by engaging in a riot; "Students were rioting everywhere in 1968"

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=riot

Rain, strong word or not, it is what it is. It's a riot.

Maybe they wanted a KFC ?

Whateva, you remind me of Alex, my brother, so much...That exact same type of funny dry sense of humor i admire in him so much...

You make me think of him every time i read you.

Sorry, had to tell you.

Ok, it seems tonight that some Islamic organizations are behind some of those riots (ohh...what a surprise...:hihi:). It's still unclear though. The?French newspapers start to reveal it. But if it's true it doesn't surprise me at all. I saw everything, I predicted everything when I saw with my own eyes the surbubs reaction during the 2nd Intifada a couple of years ago. I know every possibility is possible, including kamikaze bombing actions from people in those surbubs in the future. One day, it will happen. Their only goal is to destruct, more than having a job. It's like a competition between riotrs, who's going to burn more cars, schools than the others.  French Kamikaze comming from the immigration, like in London last summer. The Islamism is taking the role of the French state, with social and financial helps. Their influnce is growing and growing day after day. Hopefully they are observed by the french Intelligence services, one of the best in the world.

Riots still continues as we speak now, including burning schools, supermarkets, small businesses, restaurants, bar etc... The help of the Army is a possibility, if it continues.

The french population is fed-up.

They talk about a vaste "Marshall Plan" to save the surbubs, with an help of? 25 billion Euros (about 30 billion Dollars).

I was just reading about this, the article I read said the riots were spreading out of the poor areas to the more quiet suburbs.  I hope no one has friends or family in any danger.

Why isn't the army there yet?  It doesn't sound like its going to stop without major force.

Ahhh looks like Nostradamus has a rival...I name you Nesquick the Mystic :P lol

because France is an old country. People think slow, people are slow. They are always sleeping.
When something takes 2 days to be done in the US, it takes 10 days in France.

There is nothing mystic. I live in paris, it's been years I've seen it comming. I think fast, I understand fast, it doesn't take me 10 years to understand certain things. Nothing more, nothing less? :P

As I said, people think Paris is wine, effeil tower, le louvre and romantic ballads....sure..but it's PARIS. No the surbubs. Take the metro, and 20 minutes later it's like the Bronx in the mid 80's. Even for the Police it's dangerous.

I had no idea what the hell communautarism is, so I googled it.  I get a bunch of weird links such as this one: http://www.afcam.org/Anglais/croisade/Communautarisme.htm

Clash of communities?  It happens in LA all the time.  There's the community of people who clean houses for a living, and a community of people who have their homes cleaned for them.   You can try to sound like John Lennon and wish for these communities to blend in without differences, but it doesnt get you anywhere because they cant and wont.

If, as you imply, Sarkozy instigated these riots to advance his political agenda, then I assume the riots will intensify and become bloodier.  From the information I've seen on the web, the root of the problem appears to be too many youths, and not enough jobs to go around.

Because it's France. lol You know, the guys who think they are better than the rest of the world and who don't need anyone's help? We would never send the army - and I don't think it would be the solution, in France it would not be accepted by the population anyway. People think this is not something too serious and it will be over in a matter of days. Well, it ain't exactly what they think it is.

I don't fall for the conspiracy theories but there is big shit going on right now in the projects around Paris and other big French cities. We like to give lessons to other countries but we can't seem to control what's going on here. This is kinda weird because I started to receive emails from friends I've got all over the world and they're like: "I heard about the riots in France, are you ok? Be safe!".

And BerkeleyRiot, unlike what some people like to think in France, these riots (which are basically that: riots) are not happening only because our lousy Secretary of State made stupid remarks and called the rioters "gangstas". These riots have much deeper roots, and the recent events were just the ignition point, as it's been said before.

To give you an idea of what is going on, a French TV crew was reporting about the riots a couple of nights ago north of Paris. Some rioters got attracted by their car, which the journalists left because they feared for themselves, the rioters started to destroy the car and burn the hell out of it and were screaming beside it like it was their trophy. The journalists had to finish their report protected by the police. Last night, 900 cars and a lot of stores were burned down in France, including 600 in the Paris of suburbs. Tonight (so far), the number fell down to 100, which (I hope) means the riots are close to an end. We'll see what our government decides to do afterwards but with the two jerks we have in power (Sarkozy and De Villepin), I'm not very optimistic.

So if the military isn't there yet, what is being done to stop this?  Anything?  Are they hoping it will just stop on its own, like just wait it out and eventually people will get bored?

They are sending lots of police backups in the projects, as much as they can. They're trying to calm people down, some people from the projects actually try to calm the rioters down too. Politicians are trying to discuss with some of the youth from those neighborhoods. They're trying a lot of different things, it seems to be better tonight.

That's interesting.  The news report I just read said it had escalated over night and spread to include more areas.

Attack of the Frenchies! :nervous:

 I'll bet it's some of our transplanted Amish causing all that riff raff.........

Because there's no need for an army yet ! It's not a revolution taking place down there - it's a mob - young kids burning cars and public facilities ! Yes it's sad, stupid but since the beginning of the events no one is dead !
And I haven't heard about quiet suburbs yet - Monfermeilles, Sevran, all these town in the 93 aren't quiet aereas -

Well I just heard some cars have burned in the 17th arrondissement in Paris so I guess things are not improving.  :no:
But there is no need to blacken the situation w/ muslims extremists (which the rioters are not) !

1297 cars burnt last night, the worst night since the riots started. It started slow, but in fact it really started later in the night.
The riots entered Paris (inside Paris), wich is new.

My bad. When I posted here, it was like 2 or 3am, and the last Reuters news were from 11pm and they said just 100 cars burned down. It sucks if it got worse. I wonder what they'll do to stop that. Whatever they have been doing for 10 days is obviously not working.

It is making the headlines on CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/ , The NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/ , The Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ and Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/

I am trying to figure out what France is going to do when the non-indigenous French population is 20% of the population.

If they can't put down this riot, what are they going to do when the demographics change?  Do they understand how grave a situation and defining of a moment this really is?

10 Officers Shot as Riots Worsen in French Cities

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?ei=5065&en=bedf387128f38586&ex=1132030800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

What's that ?  ???

You mean white french people ? "Our ancestors the gauls" thing ? 3/4 french people do at least have a grand father or a grand mother that came from another country - Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal,Tunisia - Algeria - Marocco or countries in Africa.
The real matter is unemployment here -

Thank you ! Pretty interesting article that actually pictures what's happening here -  :yes:

And our government hasn't been able to do anything about it for the past few years. The right wing is trying to change things but even that doesn't work.

There is a lot of racism in France. It's NOT normal that some arabics young people with a Master can't find a job because they are called mohamed or farid. It's not normal they are beaten by the police. You all know how I don't like "les racailles", but they are humans. They want a job, but France doesn't want them.

A 61 years old man is dead today, beaten to death by rioters.

I've never seen France like that, exept during the 2nd intifada. It's more than riots, it's turning into a civil war.
We should send the army, judge the riotters , and for the rest of the young people, those who want to work and get a job, let's help them!

Do you know if the unemployment rate is higher in the immigrant areas than in other regions?   In the Watts Riots in LA, unemployment was significantly higher in the black areas.

Racial tension with unemployment is like a time bomb waiting to go off  :(   Even if you told people to ignore race, gender, etc,  if one person has a job and the other person doesnt, then you cannot ignore that difference.



Is the first death of the riots?

The Rodney King riots had (I think) like 60 people killed.  They had to call in the Marines.  For a few days, a lot of people just left LA.  I was just a kid so I have vague memories from my parents.

Unemployment in these areas is insanely high. It is already tough as fuck in France to find a job if you come from a "quiet" neighborhood (10% unemployment), but if you come from a project, unemployment can be as much as 3 or 4 times higher.



It would be the first death apparently (I thought another woman was dead but she's still in ICU right now). There are many injured, mainly in the police and the firemen.

I think it is time for France to show its strong face. The job has to be done, and the job is too clean-up the surbubs from the leader rioters. If not, next time it wont be Sarkozy, Dominique de Villepin or Jacques Chirac, it will be Jean-Marie Le Pen.

"Fermet? et justice". lol ;D

Our great (!) Prime Minister said tonight, again, that they would not send troops. Maybe we're gonna have a curfew though in some cities. They will probably wait for more dead people to send in the troops. Let's hope we do not get there.

Here's a great analyse by Alain Finkielkraut http://www.radiorcj.info/reecouter_detail.tpl?sku_arch=31797245572153131
One of the most intelligent french philosoph and writter. He has some very good points.

If i was very sick but very clever and a pure tactics master, i would send coded messages through mosques.

These messages would tell young people to " occupy" armed forced for a week or two , to occupy intelligence services for that time too and panick the governement before xmas, especially when all world medias are looking and when our elections aren't far.

While all these people happen to be oh so very extremely busy, i would quietly, but surely, make terrorists cross France and have people install everywere with arms and bombs, under everyone's nose and not even bothered by secret services who'd happen to be very busy with a few hundreds underaged idiots through out the country.

Oh wait, i am NOT a tactics master...

But i am sick .....lol ::)

I found that on the internet  :hihi:

(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2659/dsc006687ir.jpg)

SARKOSY YOU HALF TOOTHED WANCKA !!!!!!!!!!

It's a polish name... :'(

Why must more Muslims immigrate each year when there is obviously no work for them?

Don't you guys want to stop the bleeding at some point?

This is what happens when a new feature of an old democracy comes around. The creation of an underclass (in this case North Africans) to keep homes clean at bargain prices, faciliated by easy immigration.

Reminds me of another country who has an entire underclass of Mexican slaves. We should probably pay attention to this.

You don't get the point they are not muslim immigrants - they were born in France - they are french - and not only muslims are burning cars !

Why do the parents let their children (12 to 17 years old) attack people, burn cars and destroying everything? Where are the parents of these riotters? What are they doing?? Why those teenagers are not AT HOME at 2 or 3 a.m?? Let's cut the benefits for 2 or 3 month, let's cut "les allocs" and you'll see and they will autodiscipline themself.
Another very troubling thing: Do you know what are the 2 most frequent baby names in the surburbs of Paris in arabic families since the 9/11?
Ossama (or Oussama) and Jihad. I repeat, Ossama and Jihad. Judge by yourself...
Also, You have to know that for LOTS OF young french arabic teenagers, Ossama bin Laden is their hero.

Thing is Nesquick, i have seen these mobs with my own eyes as i live close to the problems and there are very few arabs actually.

The leaders seem to be of other origins ( like albanians for instance ?)

I wonder how blind we've been.

if you watched the news, the phenomenon is way out of your first predictions (arab / muslim conspiracy to take over the world)

and well, i see what you mean abot the parents ... but again, we're thinking with our "normal / happy" people rationality.
these families are 1) fed up with their lives 2) pissed off at their kids

i dont think the parents have any control on these kids. they need to get sent to africa and desert and help rebuild there. like a looong behavior camp :)

I know that, and it's not normal. It's also their responsability. They don't give any education to their children who burn the country? So let's cute "les allocs". And after that, I'm sure they will understand. When you hit the money, people wake-up.
I agree with one of your post when you said something like "we don't care of the 20's or 30's years old, it is time to take care of the 8-10 years old children because they are the future". I think you have a point. The 25 years old generation is done, you don't re-do the education at 25, however it is time to take the new generation in charge, or, I repeat it, in the next decade, IF nothing is done, we will have French Kamikaze.

Sarkozy just made a fantastic intervention at the national assembly . Applause of everybody, includng the left. : ok:

Last thing - the truth about the riots, uncensured scenes http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-french_riots.wmv

France is in the shit.

man, that site has some sick shit.

Is that new?

To me it's been years France has been in deep shit. But "tout va tr?s bien, Madame la Marquise, tout va tr?s bien, tout va tr?s bien!" This is just a storm that will pass...or so they say.

Edit: this video is nothing compared to some of the stuff I've seen on the news, like some kids saying "we're gonna fuck up France!" (on va niquer la France!) after having burned down a car or a public facility. There will be a very interesting TV show on France 2 thursday night. Check out "Arr?ts Sur Image" on France 5 next sunday too.

wierd - I was in Paris 2 days before all this sh!t started

Beautiful city btw...

Thank you. That is always appreciated. :)

I have mentioned it countless times on here.

Yes, but you keep on letting in more and more.  Is it really a good thing for France to keep importing more cheap labor.  You already have a 10% unemployment rate, time to shut off the valve.  I think we should shut down illegal immigration too, so I am no hypocrite.

illegal immigration is by definition .... illegal. so... i don't see your point .....

these families have been in france since 40 / 50 years. because, France has own north africa and some african countries for a while .... you don't cut this kind of links easily ....

Nothing really happens in Paris - just a few burned cars .... nothing compared to some parisian suburbs !  :P

funny how<everything is blown out of proportion by medias*

I live next dooir to the trouble ( near clichy, montfermeil, sevran, ....) and i haven'"t even SEEN or smelt smoke, haven't seen groups of people and only 8 police cars the first night after these two stupid kids decided to become human  kebabs

If only journalists were not so ambitious, being prepared to lie so much, i'd have a hard time looking at myself.

I guess we Americans shouldn't be so mad a France for not sending troops to Iraq....hell...they won't even send troops to their own cities to stop this madness.  What is wrong with your leadership?  Send in the troops and put a stop to this shit now!

no need for troops, it's over now , just a few oddballs damaging goods but they take any excuse every year...nothing much

We don't like sending troops against our own citizens it makes us feel like a dictatorship to do so. Troops are sent to help not to repress. And we already have thousands of policemen down there. CRS, they are specialized in these kind of action.

Nothing much? I wonder if the thousands of people who had their car, store, or school burned down would say the same.

i think she 's sayong that LOCALLY , these are just dumbass bruning stuff. it's not a huge organized rioting act, like some of the medias tried to portrait it. just young assholes taking all the pressure off their environnement (parents, families, life) and expressing it trhu violence ... stupid yes. but a nice punch in the face would do it.

It seems the violence is decreasing. Good thing.

I thought this was a good op-ed piece on the riots.  The way he describes the situtation, it seems less about Muslim/African hostility and more about living out 'A Clockwork Orange' type of existence for the disgruntled youths. 

Get French or Die Trying    (yes, a pun on that rap movie  :P)
By OLIVIER ROY
Paris

THE rioting in Paris and other French cities has led to a lot of interpretations and comments, most of them irrelevant. Many see the violence as religiously motivated, the inevitable result of unchecked immigration from Muslim countries; for others the rioters are simply acting out of vengeance at being denied their cultural heritage or a fair share in French society. But the reality is that there is nothing particularly Muslim, or even French, about the violence. Rather, we are witnessing the temporary rising up of one small part of a Western underclass culture that reaches from Paris to London to Los Angeles and beyond.


To understand why this is so, consider two solid facts we do have on the riots. First, this is a youth (and male) uprising. The rioters are generally 12 to 25 years old, and roughly half of those arrested are under 18. The adults keep away from the demonstrations: in fact, they are the first victims (it is their cars, after all, that are burning) and they want security and social services to be restored.

Yet older residents also resent what they see as the unnecessary brutality of the police toward the rioters, the merry-go-round of officials making promises that they know will be quickly forgotten, and the demonization of their communities by the news media. Second, the riots are geographically and socially very circumscribed: all are occurring in about 100 suburbs, or more precisely destitute neighborhoods known here as "cit?s," "quartiers" or "banlieues." There has long been a strong sense of territorial identity among the young people in these neighborhoods, who have tended to coalesce in loose gangs. The different gangs, often involved in petty delinquency, have typically been reluctant to stroll outside their territories and have vigilantly kept strangers away, be they rival gangs, police officers, firefighters or journalists.

Now, these gangs are for the most part burning their own neighborhoods and seem little interested in extending the rampage to more fashionable areas. They express simmering anger fueled by unemployment and racism. The lesson, then, is that while these riots originate in areas largely populated by immigrants of Islamic heritage, they have little to do with the wrath of a Muslim community.

France has a huge Muslim population living outside these neighborhoods - many of them, people who left them as soon as they could afford it - and they don't identify with the rioters at all. Even within the violent areas, one's local identity (sense of belonging to a particular neighborhood) prevails over larger ethnic and religious affiliation. Most of the rioters are from the second generation of immigrants, they have French citizenship, and they see themselves more as part of a modern Western urban subculture than of any Arab or African heritage.

Just look at the newspaper photographs: the young men wear the same hooded sweatshirts, listen to similar music and use slang in the same way as their counterparts in Los Angeles or Washington. (It is no accident that in French-dubbed versions of Hollywood films, African-American characters usually speak with the accent heard in the Paris banlieues).

Nobody should be surprised that efforts by the government to find "community leaders" have had little success. There are no leaders in these areas for a very simple reason: there is no community in the neighborhoods. Traditional parental control has disappeared and many Muslim families are headed by a single parent. Elders, imams and social workers have lost control. Paradoxically, the youths themselves are often the providers of local social rules, based on aggressive manhood, control of the streets, defense of a territory. Americans (and critics of America in Europe) may see in these riots echoes of the black separatism that fueled the violence in Harlem and Watts in the 1960's. But the French youths are not fighting to be recognized as a minority group, either ethnic or religious; they want to be accepted as full citizens. They have believed in the French model (individual integration through citizenship) but feel cheated because of their social and economic exclusion. Hence they destroy what they see as the tools of failed social promotion: schools, social welfare offices, gymnasiums. Disappointment leads to nihilism. For many, fighting the police is some sort of a game, and a rite of passage.

Contrary to the calls of many liberals, increased emphasis on multiculturalism and respect for other cultures in France is not the answer: this angry young population is highly deculturalized and individualized. There is no reference to Palestine or Iraq in these riots. Although these suburbs have been a recruiting field for jihadists, the fundamentalists are conspicuously absent from the violence. Muslim extremists don't share the youth agenda (from drug dealing to nightclub partying), and the youngsters reject any kind of leadership.

So what is to be done? The politicians have offered the predictable: curfews, platitudes about respect, vague promises of economic aid. But with France having entered its presidential election cycle, any hope for long-term rethinking is misplaced. In the end, we are dealing here with problems found by any culture in which inequities and cultural differences come in conflict with high ideals. Americans, for their part, should take little pleasure in France's agony - the struggle to integrate an angry underclass is one shared across the Western world.

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If he's right, then it's a very interesting take on the situation.   It's also different from other articles I've been reading (like Pat Buchanan) which say that the rioters do not want to be integrated into French culture and would rather be Muslim extremists.

But, really, it feels like A Clockwork Orange. 

Thank you Random ! It made my day ! It's exactly what's happening here - nothing to do w/ islam or the banning of the islamic scarf in school.
It's a matter of having no perspective ... and be completely disconnected from the french society. They identify w/ their neighborhood.

yup good piece.

Are you meaning the U.S.? Cause if you are, I don't see how. Majority of these Mexicans are crossing the U.S border illegally, paying no taxes on the income they make, and cross back over the border almost at free will anytime they want. I don't see how these Mexicans can be a "slave".



Exactly! Alot of people lost alot and the government would only issue a "call to order"??...that's ridiculous!!!! Police were  fighting off gas bombs with pepper spray guns. Chirac had is thumb up his ass when he should have ordered troops where they were needed.

Are they exploited, yes.  But I don't think they should be here in the first place.  And they are free to leave whenever they want.  The black slaves of 200 years ago weren't so lucky.  Maybe SLC needs a history lesson.

Did you bother to even read my post.  I said you guys need to stop immigration ASAP.  You don't need anymore labor with that 10% unemployment rate.  Do you agree?

It always amazes me that French people just don't wanna see what happens in their own freakin country. I am French, but I will never understand that. "Just a few angry youths". Give me a FUCKIN break!! Would you say that if your car, the only good thing you owned was burned down by a bunch of fuckin assholes who were angry at French society but decided to take it down on the car you spent 5 or 8 years to afford in monthly payments? I don't fuckin think so.

Sure, violence is decreasing, that's a good thing. It doesn't mean the problems in our projects are solved. I'm so pissed off about that. French people just like to give lessons to other countries but when shit happens here it's just nothing...a storm that will pass. Open your eyes. This country is FAR from being perfect. In two weeks, media won't talk about it, they will talk about the bird flu or whatever and all of this will just be a bad dream.

"Tout va tr?s bien, Madame la Marquise..."

"On pourrait aussi envisager que tout nous explose ? la gueule..."

The frontiers are not open ... the governement is sending illegal immigrant home when they are arrested ... what action do you propose to stop illegal immigration ?? ???

To Drew : I already said it but in France sending troops would just worsen the situation. French people seek the army when there is a natural disaster not when urban troubles arise. We already have the CRS for that, no need for the army ... what do you propose, tanks in the streets , what would they do ? Fire ?? ::)

To Will : I don't actually understand what you are so upset about ! We have a huge suburb problem, it's not new and what is happenning is fucking sad and idiotic ! But in the street, the ones that are burning cars are actually a small % of the youth living in the suburbs ! maybe just 50 or 100 young people in cities of 50 000/ 60 000 or more inhabitants are doing this shit ! There is no youth revolution, it's a fuckin sad contest between neighbohoods to know which one will burn the most cars / buses / schools in the nights. It's sad for the people who lost a car - I know someone myself - but over-reacting is just giving them some credit and I won't do that, no way !

I'm upset because in France we don't like to face problems. I agree this became in the end a contest to know who is burning the most cars and stuff, but it still means there's a deeper problem. What I'm saying is that we'll talk about it for two weeks, De Villepin is gonna create new emergency laws and regulations and it won't actually change anything, in the end. I think we need to rethink all our politics and all our economics. I think we need a deep, actual change, trying to propose real solutions, like we were talking about on GN'R France. (plus I was kinda drunk when I posted... ;D)

i think we ARE faciong the problems
im saying these are stupid kids because the violence is not the problem
the issue is at the root and that is unemployementy, living environement, social integration  and ... EDUCATION.
not cars burning. the cars burning are just the material summoning of the issue. so there isno need to talk about it.

if we continue crying and arguing about the cars burning, THEN we'll miss the point. so i think france (on tv - good tv - and around) is pretty much facing the reals problems and letting the violence emotions go (off course TF1 and shit like that aren't ....)

Good luck.  In the 1960's we had black riots in which we deemed the problems to be exactly what you just pointed out.  We started a whole bunch of programs to help blacks.  Now, 40 years later, things are still very shaky. 

You guys are on your way to becoming America Jr. the way your going.  I guarantee your politics will get more conservative in the coming years.  History is repeating itself. 

Roll your eyes all you want too if that makes you feel good. I never mentioned for anyone to just go in and start firing on people. 12 nights of rioting and the CRS are worthless. They obviously didn't and couldn't stop the riots as we see now. So yes, I do propose something besides the CRS.  I do think the Army could've done better. Tanks?....No, but some kind of force that has an affect. Just letting the riots continue and cause damage and injuries and/or deaths is ridiculous! This shows that the French governement was hoping the riots would stop and disappear. But they were wrong and look  pretty incoherent now on how to handle these kind of situations.

Just look at how the whole katrina situation was handled and how the army is looked at in south US.

Army being there against its own people ?

Archiduke Ferdinand got killed for it
Tian an Men was a disaster
The 1960's
The french revolution

Anywhere and anytime, as soon as you use the army against your own people, you get a revolution. Or a civil war.

No thanks.

If there were rioters in my neighborhood and seriously affecting the safety of my children and family, I'd say bring in the Army and stop this madness before my house or car is set on fire and/or before my familes or my life is put in danger. I don't care how one may look at the Army. When it comes to the safety of my loved ones, I could care less what anyone else thinks.

While there were some complaints about the attitude of the military in the Katrina disaster, I think the main complaint was that it took them too long to get there and when they came, there weren't enough of them.  Most people were asking, where is the military, within days after the hurricane.  No one said they weren't needed or wanted. 

I don't know how the French army works.  But here we have the National Guard and we expect and want them to come in and handle riots, or help with security when issues are too big for local police. 

That's what I've been trying to explain to you - Army is very welcomed when natural disasters occur - when there are people to save and help - BUT if you really want a general uprise in France just try to bring the army in to settle a social matter.
The CRS are trained to counter these kind of crises - If the riots continue it's because the governement doesn't want to face with the result of the death of one of rioters. CRS have guns - everything the army can offer in these kind of situation.