Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://www.theninhotline.net/archives/articles/xart38.shtml

ENGLEHART: You did a show with Guns N' Roses at Wembley Stadium in London several years back, at Axl Rose's instigation. Do you get any feedback from him these days?

REZNOR: I heard from him right before we started this tour. That was kind of when the downfall of Guns N' Roses was just reaching bottom. He was just kind of freaked out and was talking about maybe working on some other kind of project. I said, "Let me know. I'm into at least listening to ideas." I haven't had any other contact.

ENGLEHART: He's got an interesting mind. I think there's a lot more going on in there than people give him credit for.

REZNOR: With Axl? Yeah. I feel a certain degree of compassion, just because he was thrust into something that was larger than anything else and then a lot of weight was placed on him to carry the torch. If I had to pick something that I think was wrong with how they were treated it was that no one had the balls to say "No." As in, "No, it's not a good idea to put out two double albums of mediocre material." But if you said that you got fired. I think that's inherently the problem. I think the guy is talented at what he is doing.

so does this mean he felt the illusions were two albums of ok music.. No on ever doubts afd though :beer:

Everyone knows the UYIs would have been better if it was a single disc but it was a huge move and it paid off at the time.

While I certainly don?t agree with him, Trent?s entitled to his opinion. I just thought people would find those quotes interesting.

Although nothing ever became of Axl/Trent collaboration, I wonder if Axl sent some tapes to Trent.

A little off-topic, but I have never agreed with this assertion. I feel each album has it?s own feel and vibe, and with a few exceptions, UYI has little filler.

I have never felt the illusions were ok material or medicore.. Like most albums on this planet they had a few less then great songs.. Actually a few not so good tunes but the good outweights the bad.. Also they were following up afd, that is a lot to ask from anyone.. Each album did have enough good songs to make up for the ones people disliked.. Anyone can look back and say well they should have dropped that song or made just one album,.. I say fuck that it was cooler to giv ethe fans the most material you can

The funny thing is that Trent did the same thing in 1999 with The Fragile-a two cd set that should have been one. People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks! ;D  I believe Geffen was behind the two cd thing back in 1991. Anyone could tell that Gnr could implode at any moment-get what you can get, when you can get it! As you can see, they were right. :-\

trouble with gnr is so much time has passed that we sit around thinking about every possible thing they could have done better.. If the groups stayed together we would have been so long gone away from those two albums we would have other shit to think about.. The last new music by guns n roses was those two albums.. You could have had maybe 4-5 more albums and tours to discuss instead of this crap over n over..

I think UYI are great albums, and not mediocre material at all. ?Afterall, anything following AFD could probably have been described as "mediocre". ?That was a tough one to follow and I don't think anything they did after that would have come close in the eyes of critics of fans.

And, while I do have some compassion for Axl, as well (believe it or not) - with the pressure that must have been on him after GnR skyrocketed to fame- I've heard many times that people were afraid to say "no" to any of his ideas for fear of being fired, and that it was easier to just go along with him. ?Maybe he should have started working on some other kinds of projects after UYI. I think he could have been very successful on his own or with a new project of some kind. ?However, I think he's lost a lot of credibility because he has stretched this whole CD thing out for so long. ?

Sad, huh? ?

I was just thinking, has there ever been another band in the history of rock n' roll that this has happened with? ?I mean, usually, great bands either completely break up (Zeppelin), some reunite after a few years with all or most of the original members and come back stronger (Aerosmith), ?or they stay together with all or most of the original members intact -not just one original member- (Stones). ?This band, other than Axl, has gone through so many changes and reincarnations that it's not even the same band anymore, but they still exist. ?It's like a completely different band, but with the same name. ? It's just strange. ?

it's basically an axl rose project with a name everyone knows.. Never been gnr to me and never will but I respect axl and hopefully he gives us some music to enjoy in this lifetime..  Thes best second chance I have seen is definetly aerosmith. We all just assume this will be huge and the songas will be all top tunes that carry an industry with endless touring...
The reason things like this never happen is because people know their solo projects are not the famous group they came from.. people that keep the names know they have an easy way of promoting and selling things.. They get endless funds and time because labels hope they can recapture that old glory..

Whatever I loved the illsuions but to bad it was when I was in HS

That's funny, only four years later and Trent released his double album of mediocre songs. And to say the Illusion albums were mediocre was pretty pathetic. 

they are mediocre...

for example the illusions arent even half as good as the white album by the beatles.

Please, the White album is nothing but a overrated pile of dog doo-doo. Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I myself happen to have great respect for the Illusion albums.

Thats hilarious coming from Reznor, the man wouldn't know quality if it attacked him

Typical. People attacking Trent Reznor's music because he said something negative about Axl in 1995.

Maybe we can talk about Nirvana and Kurt Cobain too soon?  ::)


/jarmo

Well, according to what you said in this post: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=22258.0, The Fragile is a masterpiece.

"Also gnr fans are not the only one who have waited 5 years or so for new albums.
Look at NIN and Tool fans.
Trent and Maynard both, like axl, take forever to put out albums.
And why? Because they, like axl, are perfectionist.
And it shows in their work.
They albums are always masterpieces and not just throw together."

Why did you suddenly change your opinion on the album? Cause Trent didn't like UYI?

It's so boring hearing people attacking somebody's music just because that person said something even remotely negative about GN'R.

Kurt Cobain (RIP) hasn't said anything about Axl in more than ten years, but a lot of GN'R fans still feel the need to bitch about Nirvana as soon as Nirvana is listed above GNR in some poll.


This is the scenario:

Artist X: "Axl shouldn't have released YYYYY/GN'R were never any good/Axl is an idiot/insert own idea here"
Several GN'R fans: "Artist X sucks/(S)he can't write anything as good as Axl/Their guitar player can't play/They're playing in bars nowadays/Nobody listens to them/etc."

It happens every fucking time.




/jarmo

how many original members are in the cure right now, except robert smith ?

do you feel it's a totally different band ? i'll say no.

why ? cause the cure is robert smith, he's the essence of it.

we'll see with CD if it's the same with guns n'roses.

hmmm good point....

also i hate it when people bash the fragile...... it's my favorite album i think it is one of the greatest albums ever...... it grows on u soo much.

The Fragile, UYI, the White album=masterpieces.

Trent is God
so is Axl

I had too much Soki, damn.

I'm not familiar with the Cure.  But, I hardly think Axl was the "essence" of GnR.  He was the frontman and, therefore, more out front, but GnR had some other great people in it, without whom, it's not the same and never will be. Slash was also part of the essence of GnR.     

RichardNixon
Aye, White album is great. Nay, A human being is not God. first of all, A human exists.
What's Soki? ???


While agreeing on what you said overall, I see this point differently.
A band is not just a person or persons. It's made of a bunch of people who share the same goals (and not necessarily the same opinions or ideas). The concept of the goals is the core of a band and Axl or Robert Smith happens to bear it. There was a stage the band was just one man for he was the only one in the band with reason for doing it and then some other great people without reason for staying there left.
Now there're people who go along with the concept and joined the band with clear sense of purpose.

Therefore, this band is completely the proper GN'R.

I disagree.  Yes, in order for a band to be successful, all should share the same goals.  But, I don't see where Axl was the one who had to "bear" it.  You said that he was "the only one in the band with reason for doing it and then some other great people without reason for staying there left".  I just think that Duff & Slash had a lot of reason for staying there.  They helped found the band.  This was their life. I think they just got very frustrated because the goal of the band was no longer a shared goal, but Axl's goal, unbending.  Since that time, other bandmembers have come & gone.  What does that say for Axl?  Sooner or later, people get tired of it.  How many times can you record & re-record stuff and not actually release anything or do a decent tour?  I'd move on.  All the present band members seem to be off doing their own thing.  Probably  because nothing is happening with GnR. What is the "proper" GnR anymore, anyway?     

Sorry dude, won't happen again.

Whether you Agree or not, the fact that the old guys left the band implies they didn't have enough reason to be there anymore. One of them even said he didn't want to stay in the sinking ship. Instead they stayed in the partnership. This is not an ex-member bashing, BTW. their decision to move from the band they no longer belong to and to make the most of what they had done with it is none of our business and should be respected unless of course it goes beyond their own business to trouble the business of the ship they abandoned or the captain and the new crew.

Unfortunately for you, the crew are still in and doing their own stuff with the full approval of the captain. Tommy says on numerous occasions that what made him be in the band is the goals Axl revealed to him. Axl may be as slow as a donkey but he has the ballsy goals. I don't see they'll call it quits unless Axl wants them to or till they attain the aims.

If the goals were merely to be successful, to get money to beget money and to make the name make more fame, by releasing the same good classic songs by different titles, they could be set in other band and not in GN'R. IMO.

Anyways, why you try to drag in "this-is-not-GNR" shit on every occasion? Go post it in the dead horse section. Why not follow out your own words and 'move on'. : ok:

Ok there, Inspector Gadget. Believe whatever you want about who I am but like everything else, you are wrong.

You contradicted yourself and now you are trying to Slick Willy your way out of it. The post you made was in 2003. The Fragile came out in 1999. Therefore, when you said "They albums are always masterpieces and not just throw together" (all your base are now belong to us) since all their work would mean everything up until 2003. Are you now claiming that The Fragile is still a masterpiece even though it is a double album with mediocre songs? Well, if that's the case than your definition of "masterpiece" differs from mine. To me, masterpiece means flawless. How can medicority be flawless?

I understand what you are saying but it happens with everyone.. people hate vince neil because of that shit, they hate metallica because of the tour and what james said, they hate twisted sister because of some stupid cd comment he made,.. I remember people knocking ozzy when he mentioned axl n the tea leaves, the guy from queens of the stone age, etc.. it's just pretty common for hate to be thrown out there and a person'a abilities to be knocked because he might have said he dfidn't like something about axl or an album..

I don't recall having said those words under this topic.  But, even when I have said it, it's only a statement of what I feel.  Sorry if it offends thee.  Furthermore, I have no plans of "moving on". Guess you'll have to just put up with me once in awhile.   :P   

 BabyGorilla aka Slash is gnr or what ever you want to call yourself, this is my last post toward you. So when I start ignoring you, just know I am intentionally ignoring you. The people on the board don't want to read your little vendetta against me, so I am just going to do the easiest thing to save them from your pestering of me. Stop replying to your posts. So have fun talking to yourself. Have a great stay on the boards and enjoy.
 : ok:

thanks for pointing that out.

BabyGorilla aka slash is gnr, I would assume you think AFD is a masterpiece, now anything goes is far from a flawless so I guess anyone that thinks AFD is a masterpiece has low standards or is being contradictory right? Using your logic then I guess that must be the case.  So I guess everyone on this board that thinks AFD is a masterpiece has low standards that is a pretty bold statement even for you.

Your argument is riddled with so many fallacies that it is hard to take them serious. You draw conclusions based on assumptions in order to prove your point. I find this hypocritical for someone who always claims that his statements are taken out of context and accuses others of putting words in his mouth.

First off all, you are wrong in assuming that I think AFD is a masterpiece. I like the album very much but I personally do not feel it is a masterpiece. There are only about four albums which I think are masterpieces and none of which are Guns N' Roses albums and none of which feature any former or present GNR members.

Secondly, if you reread my statement, I do not make the claim that anybody who thinks AFD is a masterpiece has low standard. I said you have low standards if you feel an album which contains mediocre and "filler" songs are deemed masterpieces. In my eyes, calling something a masterpiece is the ultimate form of approval and flattery towards someone's work. If you choose to give the title of a masterpiece to something which you admit suffers from mediocrity than I think the standards which you use to judge an album are low. If anybody calls AFD a masterpiece but also says that some songs are mediocre than I will also tell them that their standards on how they base an album are low. If someone says AFD is a masterpiece and they love every song on the album than I have no problem with that. We seem to be in disagreement with where we draw the line. You are assuming that I am calling anybody with an opinion different than mine to have low standards. What I am saying is if your definition of masterpiece is a work that contains some mediocrity than I think your standard of judgement is low.

You really do not have a point since you have different criteria for a masterpiece as I and others do. So you have no leg to stand on. Here is something you should really understand, no album is flawless and music is subject. That is one thing you could never comprehend.

You contradicted yourself again. You say music is subjective (which I agree) and then you say no album is flawless as if that statement applies to everyone when it really just applies to you. So really, you cannot comprehend your own statement.

Its one thing to have a different criteria for how you critique an album but what you said about The Fragile was a contradiction. Its like saying you love an album but then saying the album is kinda average and mundane at the same time.

As for me contradicting myself you still have not proven that but hey keep claiming that if it makes you sleep better at night.  I also love how you bring up something being flawless yet being flawed. Who ever said the UYIs or the Fragile was flawless? The answer is, nobody did. Those are your words not mine or did you know realize that?

Masterpiece and mediocre are two very contradictory words. If I were to say "The new Harry Potter book is a masterpiece but is also very mediocre" you mean to tell me that this is not a contradiction?

Judging by your previous post where you try to deny the fact that you made such a statement, I think that is proof enough for me that you know you contradicted yourself and you are now is the stages of denial.

The fact is if you were not slash is gnr you would not even know to look for that topic about Trent and Maynard now would you? Oh you are caught again. You really need to try harder if you want to pretend you are not slash is gnr. Its so obvious it?s not even funny.

In your warped mind you somehow think that anybody who has a problem with anything you say must be the same person and nobody else could possible find anything wrong with your statements. Obviously, since you can't refute what I am saying you must try to invalidate it by making false allegations as if it matters more of who says it rather that what is said.

If you really must know, you yourself indirectly lead me to that post. In another post, you linked to a poll regarding Rhiad. That post was under the Dead Horse section and under that section is where I stumbled upon the your "Chinese Democracy frustration" post. When I read how you described Trent's work and later say it is mediocre, I thought I would call you out on your BS.

So next time you want to claim something and not back it up please have your facts straight so you don?t end up with egg on your face. Thanks.

Just because you are in denial and ignore my evidence doesn't mean I didn't support it. I use your own words against you. Don't get mad at me, get mad at yourself.

I agree entirely with your logic there. I think part of UYI's charm was the fact that you personally had to dig deep around the "filler" material and allow the epic songs to captivate you and addict you until you had mo alternitive but to enjoy the albums as the masterpieces they were. I really dont ponder "what if UYI was one album?" anymore. That wasn't Axl's, nor GnR's intention for the the material to be heard in that way, and as one poster said already, the more material the better. As for AFD being a masterpiece, your'e absolutely correct, I just view Anything goes as "filler" and Your'e Crazy as mediocre compared to the acoustic version. :P

 : ok: Your preaching to the choir there dude. Well..maybe no perfect albums except for Judas Priest's "Painkiller", or Floyd's "Darkside".

Is there anything else you would like to add? You have stated that a masterpiece can have traces of mediocrity. Are their any corollary you would like to add to that statement. If so now is your time because I found something else that you posted which is an even bigger contradiction to anything that you said about The Fragile. Now is time to totally and fully express what you have to say because there is no way to Slick Willy your way out of what I am about to post. Either admit you contradicted yourself and I will save you the embarrassment or continue on with your denial.

Main Entry: mas?ter?piece
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r-"pEs
Function: noun
1 : a work done with extraordinary skill; especially : a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement
2 : a piece of work presented to a medieval guild as evidence of qualification for the rank of master


I gues the UYI albums were a supreme artistic achievement. Getting those guys to record and finish 30 songs is an achievement! Then the albums topped the charts!  :hihi:



/jarmo

"Also gnr fans are not the only one who have waited 5 years or so for new albums.
Look at NIN and Tool fans.
Trent and Maynard both, like axl, take forever to put out albums.
And why? Because they, like axl, are perfectionist.
And it shows in their work.
They albums are always masterpieces and not just throw together."

Sir, did you ever make this comment in reference to Tool:  "Great band but their last album sucked. I hope the newer one will be more like the first two and EP than the last album which was very boring." Can a masterpiece also be described as being "sucky?" You stretched your definition of masterpiece to include mediocrity. Are you going to now say an album can suck and still be a masterpiece?

Also, when discussing The Fragile and the UYI albums you said they were masterpieces but had mediocre filler songs. Can you elaborate on how many "fillers" an album can have and still be considered a masterpiece by you? You said that both albums should have just been one single album. Doing so would mean scrapping half the songs which is about 12 songs. That's a lot of fillers for something that you claim is a "masterpiece."

Hate to sound like a broken record here (sorry ppbebe, put your hands over your ears), but 5 yrs is one thing.  12 is another.  12 is stretching it a little bit.  I could wait 5 yrs, not 12. 

The difference being that although the wait between a NIN or Tool album is relatively long, they do not spend that time working on the same project. Maynard has his side project with APC and Trent has done work on other projects like Doom III (which never made it to the final version). It's not like Trent was bunkered in the studio for six years working on With Teeth like Axl has been working on Chinese Democracy for nine years. Also, there isn't an exact science to making a great album. Taking more time does not necessarily equal better quality. 

that's pretty funny!!  ;D

mmm
I never liked Trent Reznor, but he is right, Axl's word, was the first step of the decline of GNR, and that is where he used "his" chinese democracy, treating everybody the way he wanted, and accepting just Ideas he considered interesting, I remember a Slash interview written some years ago when Axl and him, have a conversation, where Slash offers Axl some of his compositions, -- later used in the first Snakepit Album --? Axl kinda said those songs suck, and refused to record them, later Slash records them, but Axl realizes they were good ones, and wants to use them, Slash tells him, those songs are not available for you anymore... and a bigger storm grows between 'em--

@;--,-.-,.-,.-tpr

Totally agree... The Fragile is my favorite NIN album too... 
And I believe Jarmo is right !
I don't agree with Trent's opinion either but I still love NIN and their music, I don't bash Trent because he got a different opinion than me. I am a GNR fan, but not and idiot.

I agree with you too.

5 years is the time between "The Downward Spiral" and "The Fragile", not the time he spent to record it... and he was on tour promoting TDS for... I don?t know... 1 1/2 years ?... and between "The Fragile" and "With Teeth" are 5 or 6 years too with a longer tour to promote TF...

The quality is not directly related to the time... Trent has said that he'll release the following album next year because his creative cicle is still not closed.

And about Axl, 12 years has passed since "The Spaguetti Incident" and we still got no album.

i don`t think axl worked hard every day for the last 12 years to record an album :rofl:   i guess he had "better" things to do....