Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Ok. Not to start another Robin vs. Slash vs. Buckethead debate, but i'd like people to listen to this clip of Robin's RIR solo and honestly tell if u think he's a good guitarist or not:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I0P4WTKR

Here we go boys and girls ....   :o

That clip sucked overall, I'm sure he slaps himself when he hears this back..? ;) from 0:28 till the end is good. But before that is played in the wrong scale. However you should't judge him only by this clip. He sounds great on the patience solo. He has made that one his own. I haven't got a clip of that but that is really great playing (2002 tour). He has had his bad moments but so what. He IS a great guitarist BUT he is specialized in songs alike patience for instance. He makes great soulfull solo's (don't forget his Blues solo, that ones great as well.....sure he fucked it up sometimes on tour....but when he playes it right it's good.......his thing before Paradise City is GREAT... lovely.....really great.... he can do great stuff.....but he isn't suited for all the old songs..... No problem with that..... every guitarist has his specialty....besides......wait for CD. I'm sure he will have great moments on that one

Right. A 'professional' guitarist performing before thousands of people plays in the wrong scale, for like 30 seconds. I can understand if he gets a note or two wrong... And this isn't any 'old' song, mind u.  :smoking:

well, you have a point. It was some kinda jam I guess, somewhat poorly performed but yeah it was theirs. However I ain't gonna kock him down on that just yet..... The jury's still out... (for CD)

why wont people understand that this is Robin`s way to play?
Robin is an alternative guitarist who play in a different way then classic guitarists.
Why do you think Axl choose to have Robin in the band, if he couldent play? This man really can play, and as soon
GNR is back on the screens with new music, im sure Robin will get alot of attention in a positiv way! He mean alot in tomorrows guitarhistory!

Most rock n roll guitarists rnt too great live anyway.

Most wear their guitars way too low to play properly. I'm sure thats the case for Robin. I bet he's just fine in the studio.

I mean Slash had some reaaaaaaaaally awful nights live too, and he's playing his own material.

Well, I'm sure u didn't listen to that clip, bcoz if that's the way he plays then we're in a shit load of trouble.  :P


We'll see...

Robin can play great. He just had a different style than classic guitar players.

Here is him doing sossego from RIR.
http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1EUCHWG3LZJAY3R9Y3E3D6C4UE
So how is that bad?

The last time we heard him play was three years ago...  ::)

We have no idea how good or bad he is today. I'm very curious to hear how he sounds now.

Just listen to "The Blues" from the last tour, if that's what his guitaring is about, I can't wait to hear more.

I LOVE Robin's performances with GN'R.  I was just listening to an mp3 collection of all the 'new GN'R' original material and foud myself being pulled into this 'Robin world' which is all his own, open to those who only need feel it.  He is unique and his sound is beautiful.  I am soooo happy he is with GN'R and my anticipation for CD is all the more whet because of him.  :love:

I was not going to bring slash into this but since people are questing robin being a professional.


Oh kinda like slash and him playing his nov rain solo that he wrote?

http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0EZ5O4TXSWEMZ0ILR4ISPAE8RX

That is just awful and he wrote the damn thing. Robin NEVER played the nov rain solo or any solo that badly EVER.

That clip really sucked ass although from a lot of the other stuff i've heard him play i think he is quite good...maybe not as good as slash but good none the less

Slash must have been really drunk on that one...

Live performances are subject to a lot more things variables than that which the controlled studio environment allows.

And GN'R has always been an inconsistent band live.

Why is it when slash plays it badly he was drunk? He was not drunk since he played the other songs fine that night. He just really butchered the song. So robin like slash wont always play the solos flawlessly.

hahah , good one.  :rofl:  (thanks fer the buckethead.tk plug in yer sig btw  : ok: )

Now , as of now this thread has stayed pretty civil , much more so then what I had originally thought. By now I figured this woulda been locked or dead horsed because of crazy replies , hopefully we can all keep this on topic and discuss robins guitar playing without too much comparison to former members.

Personally I'm betting that stuff he layed down in the studio will be awesome. I dont wanna brag but if axl gave me this much time to lay down solo's in a studio and fix my mistakes I think I could lay down some great shit myself.

Moreover , I urge all robin fans and haters to find the song he and buckethead did for the ghost of mars soundtrack , it's called "love seige" .. try that out and see what you think.  : ok:

peace gunners.  :peace:  behave!

A sensible discussion starts now!  ;D

The Nov. solo is totally different, I agree. But atleast it's in key. The ENTIRE 40 second RIR solo Robin did is way off. If u can't tell the difference between changing a solo and it being in key, I can't help u.

Exactly. It's only live that ur real guitar skills show (modifying, improvising). It's not easy playing in front of thousands of people. Anybody can do shit in a studio. Heck, when i make mistakes in my recordings, I just keep playing till i get it right and replace my mistakes...

To borrow a phrase from Axl, "if you don't like it you'll have plenty of time to get used to (it)"    : ok:

"You?ve got the haters out there but the guys in this band it just rolls off their shoulders because they take a certain pride in their work. They?re hungry and they want to do this for all the right reasons. They want to get this material out there to the people."  Amen to that Axl.   :beer:

axl has hungry players, to bad axl doesn't have that hunger anymore living the pampered life in his mansion...

as for the topic, everyone fucks up live what can you do..

Slash may have been playing in key but he hit all the wrong notes. That is sometimes worse. You can play something out of key and it still can sound good.

Oh my god.  :rofl:

Honestly , it's better to hear wrong notes in the proper key of the song then wrong notes that arent even in the key of the song. Think about it.

What show was it that the nu-gnr did when they   ` played `    Patience and axl realised he was playing with amatuers , dropped the mic and walked off stage?

Up load that clip and all discussions on this new band can end there. :o

Brain is the one who threw off the band and didnt axl sing a wrong verse or repeated one that also threw off the band.  I do have a mp3 of slash butchering patience too but tht would be too easy and I wouldnt want to make all the slash fans cringe.

Like I said bash robin all you want but robin never played any solo that bad and slash wrote the nov rain solo. So I guess that means that slash really sucks then right? I dont think so. Anyone can hit wrong notes now and then. As for playing in the wrong key did  you even heard that slash version of voodoo child where he hits a ton of wrong notes and is toally out of key. I forgot what show it was from but I rememember it well.

Are you people having fun?

"Robin can't play ?:crying: ". Does it make you feel better? Slash isn't coming back any time soon. Accept it.

I can imagine some of you would've bashed Slash for not being able to play based on the shows he played in 1985. Before they released Appetite For Destruction.

What's the point of these threads? Are you trying to enlighten people? This is GN'R board, not a fucking "Heavy Metal Music from the 80s" board. You might actually find a few GN'R fans here who don't judge Robin on some live shows.




/jarmo

anybody that thinks robin cant play go listen to sosseggo from rir3 and shut the fuck up

Sossego is a bunch of chords. Big fuckin deal.


The point of this thread is not to bash Robin. It's just to analyse if he's good enough to fill in as the lead guitarist of GN'R. Buckethead was. Anyway i'm really bored, so humor me... ::)

I thought the thread was fine until it turned into the same ole robin VS Slash BS ... a thread to discuss the abilities of GNR's current lead guitarist? Seems fine to me.

Again , personally I think Robin will have some amazing things on the album. Maybe he will be able to replicate it live. However , with that said , I personally wasnt impressed with robins playing thus far live with GNR. And furthermore , I didnt like his version of the SCOM solo as heard on the big daddy movie/soundtrack. I'm not saying he sucks , I guess , I just havent found him overly impressive as of yet.

I did however like his work on love seige.  : ok:

Listen to Sossego on RIR 3. Absolutely fuckin' fantastic.

Robin's style is different tan a typical old school blues classic rock guitarist. He shows more emotion in his playing and has an alternative type of style, but isnt all power chords (Nirvana).

The guy is really good, Axl is fortunate to have him in GNR.

any guitarist with an ounce of talent can shred. soseggo is sooooooo much more than chords its ridiculous.

Wow, I guess I'll just wait til CD drops to see how deep of a throat all the shit talkers do have, I kinda like Robin :-X

You obviously don't know what you're talkin' about. It's a big fuckin' deal to a lot of people, but you're too biased to accept that.
In every single post in this thread, you tried to bash Robin with this "he can't play", judgin by one fuck up. Like dave said, Slash fucked up A LOT too (just listen to November Rain in St. Louis!), but nobody cares because this is not a big deal. Robin fucked up, Slash fucked up...

Like Saul said, Robin's work on the Ghost Of Mars soundtrack was amazing! He did an awesome duet with Buckethead in Love Siege and also a really good solo in this track called Fight Train:

http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1YPSUFD48TZGI2Z51YW1UWJJGH

Also, listen to jarmo:

;)

I think that was when they were playing in detroit, and no, I don't have a clip of it right now.

Yeah, it was in Detroit. And Axl left the stage because *I guess* there was some problem with the teleprompters and the PA. He perfomed Madagascar, Chinese Democracy, Rhyiad and The Blues in a row, but messing up the lyrics every time. He got pissed and just left the stage after fucked up the lcris in Patience. This "axl realised he was playing with amatuers" thing is ridiculous.

Who bought Slash into the discussion? As usual it's Dave. Not me. I have more clips of Robin fucking up live, it's not just this one. In the absence of any studio material (GN'R),his live performances form the sole basis of judgement of his skills.

Really? And about the small clip I posted? And about the "Love Siege" track? And about the Big Daddy's SCOM?

I can dig Slash's fuck ups too, so what's the point?

The Fight Train clip is ok. Big Daddy's SCOM sucks. So please don't quote that.

Haha. It's just your opinion. I think it rocks and he didn't fucked up anything nor got out of the key.
Also, there is this Love Siege.. And - why not? - IRS (the slower solo).

Of course it is.  ::)


And that's yours. So let's keep it that way.

If that's all you've got, why not wait until the album to reserve judgement? Come on, if you're going to pull out one clip of a fuck up, you know very well it's going to stir up some shit around here  :yes: And using Slash? Well what better example that even the best can screw up live occasionaly.. I've seen it with GN'R and VR. So what. I look forward to hearing his contributions on the album.

Right. We shall see.  :peace:

Yeah, sure. Why bother to keep talkin' about the subject of the thread instead of just saying how Robin sucks?

I hope we do  ;)

So u think so too?  :hihi:

Really funny.
Ok, now you just proved how you made the thread only to bitch about Robin. :P

Sure why not? I don't think his guitar skills compare to either Buckethead or Slash, so i started a thread about it. You've made ur point and i've made mine. I don't see why u have to be so uptight about it... It's not like Robin's related to u is he? Lighten up.  :P

I sort of thought that was the point.

The way the thread started was to question if Robin has the tools to play lead for Guns N' Roses. The player v. player debates were brought up by the "robin" people trying to defend him, unfortunately they are defending the wrong thing. Robin misses notes, Slash misses notes, Jimi Hendrix was probably one of the worst offenders of butchering songs (*note for note) of any live guitarist. The point is all Guitar players miss notes, amy semi-educated guitar player knows not to crucify a guitar player for mis bending a note of switching up a solo durring a cover song..... But if you are going to play a solo over a song........lets try to do it in the smae key. If I am not mistaken wasn't that the point of Axl's little Izzy stroy durring the 02 Boston show. I'd like to know where the guitar tech was to shut off Robins guitar when he began playing in a different key.

No matter how many times some one (who doesn't play an instrument) says that "Thats just Robins style, thats what makes him so good"........ it doesn't make it right, in fact, it is dead wrong. Soloing out of key isn't a style, it's a reason to decide on a career change, because if you haven't picked up on musical theory after 20 years of playing, you're never going to get it.

Plaese don't take this as an "old line-up" board member bashing one of the new guys becuase I want Slash back....... I understand Slash isn't comming back, which is why I want the best available players out on stage furthering a name that Slash helped build.  I'm not even asking for Robins removal, just move him to a strictly Rythym position. From what I've heard from the 01-02 shows he handles all of the old ryrthym parts he had very well, and some of my "guitar" highlights of the 02 shows were Richards solo's.

They have the right guys, just wrong roles...............

Because I've been seeing this for a long time. It's like that old shit about "is not GNR". Blah, Robin can't play. Blah, Robin fucked up a solo in 2001. Blah, Robin this, Robin that... Again, the same thing happens in answer: Slash also fucked up, Slash this, Slash that, blah, blah, blah. But because it is the truth. Both fucked up (I AM talking about wrong key, not only wrong notes).

The thing is: why waste your time crying because Robin is in the band?

I thought this thread was to chat about Robin, not only to dissing him. I'm on Robin's side, and that's what my first post here says. After that, I was just trying to reply all the disses because I like the guy, I think he's an amazing guitar player and because I see people bashing him only because the way he looks or because they can only see the bad things about him. This is biased and unfair with him.

I'm with you Voodoochild  : ok:

Axl and the band know what's best for the band...  Everyone else's judgement is based on not enough info.

That is so right!! Enough said in this case! We dont even know what kind of Music the new GNR wil be yet! So wait for after the album is released and then comment Robins guitarplaying!

For Voodoochild, Eva GnRAxlRosette and Nytunz and all Robin fans:

WHAT C0ma said!


Shit I couldn't have said it better myself.  : ok:

the clip doesn't do any justice to Robin.
As to the off key business,
I shouldn't expect you'd hear any sort of the avant-garde let alone the noise, but what do you think of the full use of dissonance on Eminems 'encore'?


Aye, indications are that they are the perfect duo. no, they were...  :-X

Just because I don't play guitar and some of you do, doesn't mean you're going to somehow 'educate' me into believing that Robin doesn't know what he's doing!  why in the world should i believe that Robin isn't aware of how he's playing something?!

i'm not? musician, but i enjoyed reading this thread:? http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102218

"If you don?t know any better and you play it then you are playing out of key. If you know what you are doing and you play out of the key on purpose it?s called an accidental.

An accidental is a legitimate music term meaning that the notes are not in the original key signature."

"I would like to add that when dealing with theory, it's always a good idea to keep in mind that while there are some general guidelines that you can follow...music is still an art; not a science. Nothing is absolutely "wrong" in music. It's possible to make anything sound good. Assuming of course, that you're not a closed-minded theory-snob, or anything like that. When you're open to freshness in music, and when you think of music as an art form, it's hard to say that anything is ever "absolutely wrong, all the time".

Art; not science."

Another bit from an instructional piece I found interesting...

"Chromatic and dissonant soloing. What is that? How can it help me? Well, it means you play random notes without having a tonal center. Kind of like atonal, except you are the only one playing out of key. In other words, you go through your solo playing random notes without using all the familiar patterns and clich?d riffs. It sounds weird, I know, but read on. All of the great improvisational musicians, from the blues greats to the jazz greats, sound better than most people. They can come up with awe-inspiring solos on the spot. How do they do that? Well, along with a good dose of talent and musical knowledge, they know their instruments like they know first-grade math. They have an outstanding awareness of the fretboard. They know what they are going to play long before they play it. "

I found this last passage interesting because, like I said at the beginning of my post, I've no reason to believe that Robin doesn't know how he's playing - he knows what it's gonna sound like.?

Thanks for the good read, Eva. I don't really agree with some of the quotes, but I love this one:

Of course, this will not end the whining about Robin. But it sure made it to show that there is some "closed-minded theory-snob" out there. ;)

Oh yeah, now Robin does chromatic and dissonant soloing  ::). First know what ur talking about before posting and stop finding excuses for his playing.


Sure why don't we all pick up a guitar and start playing? After all, it doesn't matter if we play random crap, it's dissonant theory! Get a clue... I shudder to imagine what rock guitar would be like if everybody thought the way u do...

Will you argue that this type/method does not exist?  I didn't make it up.  I don't play guitar... but I don't have to be able to play guitar to find that it's a method used by guitarists.  You should know what you're talking about - You, with your eye-rolling smiley, seem to insist that you KNOW the hows and whys of Robin's playing!  There is no way for you to know that.  Perhaps, you should think about that before you post.  (Notice how I resisted posting an eye-rolling smiley).


First of all, I think it'd be kick ass if we all did pick up a guitar and start playing.  Music shouldn't be off limits from anyone to explore.  It's not off limits from beginners to explore and certainly not off limits for the advanced musician to explore.  That's the way I think.  And I'm not the first.  Here's a clue for you:  Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (most popularly known from the film Fantasia). 
But really, this is not the proper forum to discuss music in general.  The thread is supposed to be specifically about  "Robin's Guitar Playing". 
I think Robin is an innovative and unique player.  You think he's just playing random crap.  I've speculated about methods Robin may employ in his playing.  You on the other hand profess to know that he just doesn't know what he's doing... he doesn't know what key he's playing in, etc.    Don't be surprised when we don't take your word for it.

Great reply, Eva. :beer:
First of all, I said before that Robin indeed fucked up sometimes (as Slash did too). All I was saying is how some close-minded people only cares about some particular sound and dislike everything else, bashing this and trying to change other people's mind.

I don't know who you are Genesis, if you really can play guitar or if you are just a Robin hater with nothing better to do. But I do know what I am talkin' about and I'm not finding excuses for Robin (he doesn't need that), I'm only defending him. First, you said he played off the key; I said Slash did that too. Then, you said Robin in studio don't have enough work to be heard; I uploaded a clip and showed some stuff. After that, you showed no arguments. Anyways, those quotes shows how biased you are:

And then...

You like eye-rolling, so let me follow you:  :confused:

Please stop acting like a smartass, trying to put down everyone who likes Robin or don't agree with your pointless arguments.

I'm a guitarist and i know what dissonant playing is. That's not the point here. First, u argue that it's just Robin fucking up live and Slash does the same... Then after C0ma's post u pull out your dissonant theory from some christian guitar site and argue that Robin MUST be using this since he's playing out of key. Real nice.

U don't have to be a guitarist to hear how awful playing out of key sounds. Just listen to Robin playing...



Ah, as usual ur missing the point. There's a difference between playing an entire fucking solo off key and missing a few notes. Being a guitarist u should know that. Guess u don't.


I don't give a rat's ass who likes or dislikes Robin. All we're discussing here is his playing. Why don't u refer back to ur posts to see who turned this into a "Slash does that too" thread.

Look, if you start a debate/discussion about Robin's guitar playing, it's fair that you present both sides of the arguement. And you have clearly started the thread off with a negative spin to set people off. So there can be no complaints. We can't erase your example of Robin, so all we can do is point out the fact that every musician has a fuck up every so often, and yes, that includes Slash, Axl, Brain etc etc.. We could upload hundreds of awesome solos he has done in return to your one example. We know he played it off key, which yes is a major screw up, but wait until CD comes out to judge, and until then, get over this one example.

Edit: It's the end of a long day at work, perhaps I am being a tad cranky  :D

Alright, my bad. It's fixed now.   ;)

As usual, you're ignoring my arguments. Who knows what happened in this solo (maybe he just fucked up, maybe his ear monitor was fucked up)? Shit happens, dude! Who are you to judge a guitarrist only by this? I am a guitarist and I know it wouldn't be fair. Being a guitarist yourself, you should know that.

If you don't care, why the hell did you make this thread?
I didn't turn this into a "Slash does that too", people did that before me. But of course I could bring Slash into this, since it's the main reason for those who complain about Robin. Slash is the parameter for a guitar player in the band for you (as you said before, "I don't think his guitar skills compare to either Buckethead or Slash"). Also, who said Slash only missed a few notes? :P

I just don't know what's the point in making a thread only to bash someone. And, when people don't like it, you can't understand why.

="Soloing out of key isn't a style, it's a reason to decide on a career change, because if you haven't picked up on musical theory after 20 years of playing, you're never going to get it.

1)  Soloing out of key can be a style.

2)  Robin definitely understands damn music theory.
Do you seriously think it possible that one minute You know it next minute you don't?

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

Ok. Shit happens. Unlike u i'm not offering him the benefit of the doubt. What makes u think he's such a great guitarist? He certainly hasn't impressed live so far.


WTF? Of course Slash is the parameter for this band. The lead replacement for Slash will obviously be compared to him. Who would u like the parameter to be?


What about it? Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks.

You are taking the term acidental too far. Yes you can play a set of notes within a solo out of key and and use those to accent a run durring the solo, but to play an entire solo out of the key of the song is not right.

Call me a theory snob, but there is a reason that songs are writen the way they are.

Also are you using a guitar part from a Rap song to prove to GnR fans that Robin deserves the Lead Guitar spot? In that case why don't we just go ahead and hire Rik Rubin to play lead guitar because he had a mean solo durring the Beasties "No Sleep Till Brooklyn".

Coma, There is also a reason that you are sitting here on a fan message board and Robin is actually in a group with a fairly talented lead singer who seems to think he can play. Not to mention that another fairly talented lead singer hired him to be his touring lead guitarist for several world class and critically acclaimed tours. In other words, I'll trust Axl's and Trent's judgements over some dork on a message board. I am not saying that I like how he plays SOME of the old Gnr stuff-cause I don't. But, then again, I don't care if I ever hear ANY of the old Gnr songs played live again-ever. Been there and done that. Finally, I would agree that Robin should stick to mainly rhythm stuff on the old Gnr catalog and let Fortus do the solo's for those-his tone does seem more in line with Slash's-even though Slash butchered anything and everything he ever played with Gnr live-Slash is sloppy defined (I don't mind his sloppiness though because that is the nature of those songs and they were created in that mindset). Ahhhh fuck it....I am only going to judge the album. Fuck the live performances-they are so cookie cutter anyway it doesn't matter.? :rant:

Meaning u have no musical judgement of ur own and u'll take any shit as long as it's been certified by Axl?. Excellent.


Well, that's u. Some of us would like to hear the old material live, the songs that got us interested in GN'R, in the first place.


That's what I've been saying.

Nope coma. read the thread. I just corrected your 2 points.1) the style does exist. 2) robin does play in key as well.



If you ask me, none.  I personally don't need any parameter for a player in a band.
Basically I hear the music, see the band as a whole. As for a part, how the part, skilful or not, works in a song/ with the other parts is the decisive factor.  In this sense, Your parameter ie Slash's guitar would be too rough and too normal to meet what GN'R requires today.

So you don't like it i.e. dissonance in general. since Obviously I'm not talking about the song itself.
An answer disappointingly predictable. I wouldn't call you biased for that. I'd call you conservative/antiquated. : ok:

I was talking about the damn song. I don't listen to rap. You want to hear dissonance in action? Listen to the solo in Poison's 'Come Hell Or High Water'.

Well, he impressed me live with Rhyiad, The Blues, KOHD, SCOM, Sossego, his duet with Buckethead on RIR3, his solos before SCOM and PC in 2002 (not only the NA tour), his rhythm guitar work in Madagascar, hus duet with Bucket in PC ending, his guitar work in YCBM, RQ and, of course, Patience. His studio work also impressed me: Love Siege, Fight Train, SCOM and IRS. I don't like NIN that much, but I also saw his work with Trent in DVD and I think it was pretty good.

I don't think Axl wanted to put someone who plays like Slash. He only wanted guitar players with particular sounds (Robin, Bucket and Richard have an unique sound that anyone can recognize). What I'm saying is Axl wanted guitar players to make a new sound for the new album. They can also play the old songs, but this is not why this new line up was build for, IMO. You shouldn't expect to only see this new band covering the old gnr - at least once the album is released.

Well, each to his own.  Atleast we understand each other on that one.


The album is the only thing that'll settle this issue, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Genesis, I like Axl's choice of guitarists throughout his career and will give him the benefit of the doubt. Thinking for myself is certainly not a problem as I am fairly opinionated-just take a look at my prior posts. Message board dork comment still stands...as evidenced by the fact that you have actually listened to any ?POISON song and even took the time to mention it. Maybe Axl should get CC?? : ok:

Sorry to stray off topic, but I don't think Rubin played that solo. Didn't he bring in the guitarist from Slayer or someone like that for the solo?


Now, back to the topic. fiNck b  lOw s.

Noooooo way, madagas!  :rant:To be honest I don't know wtf CC is but I can guess.

Oh yeah? :confused:

My Original Question.
Your answer
.
What was this 'IT' then?


Sorry I refuse.  Anyway do you like dissonance or not?

I was being a smartass...I would shoot somebody if CC Deville was in Gnr. :rofl:

I don't need to see ur prior posts, for u to prove to urself that u have a working brain. Lacking confidence?  :smoking:


You can comment all u want, i don't give a fuck. As for Poison, that's what Axl, Robin and co. have come down to.



Oh my, English professor, such intricate word play! You caught me out there! Do u see a full stop between the two sentences? Or did u mistake it for a comma?
I'll clarify: I like dissonance when it is used properly, as in: playing an out of  key note(s) because it sounds good with a particular chord in the key. Do u know what u call someone who plays all his notes out of key? Musically impaired.

word play? Bull shit. It's not about your English but about your contradiction.  >:(


Or maybe his guitar is accidentally tuned wrongly.
That's why I took 'encore' for example, in which the tune of the keyboard is all the way off key.  And it works in my opinion. Or Stravinsky if you prefer.
Are they Musically impaired? And how come a Musically impaired person play other songs in key? As I said earlier, it cannot be like one minute you don't know musical theory the next minute you do.

Who decides what's proper? There's no universal rule. I might have missed a class or two but I never heard of a theory on the proper usage of discord.

It's a matter of taste after all.

Yeah, more excuses for his playing: Dissonance, Out of tune Guitars, what next?
By the by before a concert, band members usually check to see if they are in tune.  ;)


Yes it is.  : ok:

ha! ?ppbebe, you rule! ?The poster is apparently only interested in those points which support his POV....
one which the poster doesn't even present as a POV but rather presents as though it is a fact that we must all recognize.

Yes guitar players and all musicians do make errors playing live. ?My acknowledging that doesn't definitively translate to my believing that a specific instance of Robin playing an entire solo 'off key' was a display of gross ineptitude.

 
Why is it that only your points matter? ?Why does it matter that I shared an entry from a christian guitar site? ?Is a guitar player at a christian guitar site necessarily less knowledgeable than you? ?If you believe so then you betray such claim by stating that you too are aware of dissonant method. ?Are you saying that rock guitarists don't employ this method in their work or in their training? ?Is it exclusive to christian guitar playing? ?Is Slayer a christian guitar band? ?lol! ?(How about ppbebe's example of Eminem?) ?You say you are aware of the method. ?I suggested that Robin may employ this method. ?What's to argue? ?That you know he doesn't? ?Like I said there is no way for you to know the hows and whys of Robin's guitar playing. ?Like it or not... ?that's one thing - but your conclusion that Robin doesn't know what he's doing... that he doesn't understand music theory does not make sense. ?Answer ppbebe's question above (highlighted in bold text).

As for your assertion that I argued of the sample that you posted ?that ?"it's just Robin fucking up live and Slash does the same." you are incorrect. ?I have made no such assertion. ?My comments regarding live performances addressed those who were discussing various live fuck ups of Robin, Slash, and other guitarists. ?

My specific point is that while Robin, as much as any other player, may make technical errors in a live performance, it is to be recognized that Robin may view the live situation as an opportunity to offer alternative renditions of a work... one which he may have developed through employing alternative methods such as dissonant theory. ?A live situation is condusive to a musician's creative impulses. ?I'm not suggesting that Robin improvised his rendition on the spot, but that he perhaps he decided on the spot to render this alternative interpretation that he may have developed through use of dissonant theory. ?I specifically argue that any assumption that Robin simply doesn't know what he's doing... doesn't know music theory... and doesn't know what key he's playing in, is questionable and extremely doubtful at best.

I can not rationalize that a musician would go 'tone deaf' all of a sudden. ?And while an off key note here or there would reasonably lead one to the conclusion that an error was made - playing an entire piece off key in error is less likely a reasonable assumption.

As to personal taste, and whether you like Robin's guitar playing - you are entitled to your opinion - of course! ?It is only your assertion that Robin doesn't know what he's doing to which i take exception.

Dropped ? tuning maybe? ;D
As form my 2 cents as a guitar player, im not so familiar with that "dissonant playing" bullshit, but what comes to that clip, well, I just think he played of key and he also played like someone after 10 guitar classes. hopefully he can do better.

makane, listen to any of his other solos.
Or handy, there's a sossego link in this thread. and tell me if it's offkey or not.
IMO, it kickass.



excuses? No I mean it for 'someone who plays all his notes out of key' in your post.
Do they use just one guitar throughout a show? It depends on a player/ songs/his singer innit?

WOW :o :o

you either love Robin or hate him huh? but either way it's worth fighting for. :hihi: :hihi:

I myself play guitar as well but like makane i've never heard of this dissonant playing shit. the way i was taught to play guitar was "in tune"

Genisis there are usually guitar techs who tune all guitars both before and during shows. in fact each guitarist prolly has their own tech and they all have different guitars with different tunings as required. ?I don't know what the tunings are like on the newer songs but the majority of GnR tunes from 1993 and prior were all tuned down a half step.

Personally to me, when i saw GnR in 2002, it almost sounded like Robin was fighting with his guitar to get his solo's completed for the old songs. ?That is not a technique in my book. But it's only my opinion, only robin and the rest of GnR know for sure how quality he is. but i'll tell you something Axl did get pissed off a few times on that tour after a song robin was playing (The Blues in RIR and Patience in Detroit come to mind) and it wasn't for something intentional, you can bet your ass on that ;)

On top of all this discussion, we come back to Buckethead, now if Robin was so fantastic why bring in a technically superior player like him? To compliment robin's "sloppy" style? (there's that term again ppbebe :hihi: )I just can't believe that. To me Bucket was brought in to fill a weak spot. (The lack of a quality lead guitarist)

ppbebe, yes sossego was great as were the rest of the "new" songs they played live (rir blues excepted) but they hardly come close to matching the skill of slash's solos of GnR songs from '93 and prior. or is it just me?

It doesn't matter at all. I just happened to mention it, that's all.


I give up on this dissonant theory crap!  U don't have the first damn clue yet, in spite of all these posts. what it's all about (Bcoz u need to know music theory!) . We'll play it ur way. Here are some quotes from the site u mentioned:

It's not taboo in music theory to play notes that do not naturally occur in whatever key you're in providing that you have a good reason to play them. Most often, you'll find them in the context of some kind of secondary dominant relationship

The note is out of key. The note is not wrong . Usually, if you're playing a note that's out of key, there's some phrasing behind it or in front of it to 'justify' it's use. By itself, it'll probably sound weird, but in context it'll make sense.


f it?s out of key it?s out of key. The finesse is how far you go out of key and if it is appropriate for the style of music.



Good point. GN'R is no Iron Maiden.

I read and understrand all of that.  So you're saying that IN YOUR OPINION what robin did, regardless of his intent or not, was inappropriate?

forgive me for replying to a question not directed at me, but, in my book, on the old songs this technique is inappropriate, cuz it's not how they were written.? : ok:

That's what it all boils down to, doesn't it? What one thinks is appropriate and inappropriate? If u think that playing the guitar like a banshee wailing is appropriate for a band like GN'R, then we have nothing to argue about.

Maybe there's nothing to argue about...

Neemo
as I see it from the new tunes they are both needed to express many aspects of delicate human emotions. BH is not Robin and Robin is not BH.
Each is a musician with a difference.
The difference between them makes all the difference.
To my eyes They are(were :'() the perfect pair ever.
Check out the Ghosts of Mars.  ;D

We're still talking about GN'R  right?  :hihi:


So possibly, by the time the cd is out, maybe 50 different guitarists would have played on the record, each contributing about 30 seconds depending upon their style and the mood of the music?
 No. Buckethead was brought into GN'R bcoz of what Neemo said - THE NEED FOR A DEPENDABLE, TECHNICALLY SOUND LEAD GUITARIST.

I think so too, especially after listening to the Boston promo. The begining riff sounds GREAT. i just hope the studio version will have a "conventional" guitar solo, and not a weirdo shredding/ultra futurist one. I hope we will have something more melodious. However, concerning the Live version,  I never listen to it when I watch/hear my new GN'R bootlegs. Sometimes I even don't download it.

Your 'banshee wailing' description not withstading...  it was never my intent to argue with you about what I may find appropriate vs. what you or anyone else might. As to what Robin does or doesn't do being appropriate for GN'R.... that all depends on what one feels GN'R is or 'should be'.  If I've a less stringent view of that than you, that might explain why I'm more accepting of Robin that you. 

What I took exception to was your assertion that Robin doesn't know what he's doing, isn't aware of what key he's playing in, doesn't know music theory, etc.   That's certainly not the same thing as what your're saying now - that you don't think Robin/ Robin's playing is appropriate.

My 'assertion' is based only on his playing. It's not like I coached him in guitar personally. If a guitarist can't play properly before people, what do they assume? That the guitarist is a brilliant wizard who's just doing something as obscure  as 'dissonant' theory OR that he just doesn't know what he's doing?

Like I said, you have no way of knowing the hows and whys of Robins playing. 

Yea but I should have thought that it should be beyond your comprehension like other things.  :-\


Says Who? Not me.


Stop stating your bloody imagination as fact.

Sorry, Yoda. Everything is in ur comprehension I hope.


The same for you with ur 'he was brought in bcoz of his 'musical difference'' and 'Robin and Buckethead compliment each other' crap.



Answer the question.

The question you ask "If a guitarist can't play properly before people, what do they assume?..."? first of all presumes a huge "if".?
Nonetheless, whether you or I or anyone else or a "they" thinks Robin is playing properly or not, is not indicative of whether "he knows what he is doing" or not.

The popularity of an opinion does not convert said opinion to provable fact, nor can any consensus held by said majority be validated by virtue of its popularity.

Listen, you are entitled to your opinion of Robins performance(s)... you are entitled to your opinion about whether his performance(s) are appropriate/proper for GN'R.? Music is art and as such is subjective.? Your conclusion that Robin doesn't? know what he's doing /doesn't know how to play guitar properly, however, is baseless.? You have no way of knowing the hows and whys of his playing.

You can have the opinion that the way he played something sucks, but you can not possibly know how he came to play it that way, or why.?

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Do u think music theory is an obscure black art that only a few understand? Guitarists can have different styles of playing, but that's another discussion. Are u saying that no one can understand the scales that Robin uses? Bullshit. FYI, the "hows and whys" of any type of playing is known. Now, as for why he plays the wrong thing at the wrong time..., Ahhh we reach my original post...

I think we will see a new robin next time the band tours, with a new style, playing more his own material (CD),? I'm sure he will be great.
Something tells me when the band comes back, they will be more Classic-Rock oriented, more "real", and less futurist than they were in 2002. I think we will see a more "real" Rock band.
U2 and Oasis, the 2 Biggest acts of this year in term of popularity (sold out stadiums at every gigs), show people are hungry for Rock music. Nobody is really interested in an ultra-futurist band, we are not in 2359. In my opinion, that aspect of the new-GN'R is out of context, out of time, and should be changed next time they tour.

That Ghost of Mars song does kick ass...but Robin is on rhythm and the solo at the end is clearly Bucket. Sossego is all rhythm. Somebody put a link up to that GOM song. I haven't heard it in a while. Also, Gnr fans have to let go of this obsession with the guitar solo. Great songs don't always have solos. Step out of the generic box for a while and listen to some different type of music. To me, the common denominator in all classic songs is the rhythm section-drums, bass, and guitar. Solo's are nice but certainly not a requirement. The old band is dead and not coming back. Let this new band have their chance and judge them on their music. :peace:

Fuckin hell, this is going round in circles

Does anyone have any interviews with Robin where he discusses his guitar style? Surely that would give you a better understanding of whether some of his 'out of key' playing is intentional or he made a couple of mistakes

Alternatively post a question to his website. If its not GN'R related you may get a reply!

I already posted this in an old topic but I think it would be a usefull read. I edited a few new things in it as well. Please read this post with care:

First of all.? I think Robin Finck is a pretty good guitar player. That he definitely is. He has a cool and fresh approach, listen to the parts he played on the 2002 tour before paradise city. I think that his style of playing came out really well and soulfull on that special segment. That's a specialty of him for sure. I really enjoyed his solo's on Patience from the 2002 tour as well. Those gave the same feel to me. He's outstanding on those elements so it seems. Those were not out of key or anything.

Sure that rio sample that was posted was bad. I'm sure he slaps himself in the face when he hears that one back.....but no worry's every guitarist learns by mistakes....even playing in the wrong scale (in that particular jam).

1)The example however(rio, playing a bit in the wrong scale) could also be the cause by lack of communication (good agreements on how the jam is set up, planned on beforehand) between the band...... It was a jam which didn't exactly came out as it was meaned at the time.........It has fuck nothing to do with "dissonant" or whatever you people come up with. It wasn't a strange note or anything. Coz strange notes can / should sound great (on blues music for instance....the so called "blue notes". Just lack of communication. I stumble uppon the same problems when JAMMING cause well........it's jamming isn't it....... A jam can sound great.....but you could also play a bad jam.........it's all in the game....however setting some guidelines before the jam always helps. Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't. I won't judge

2)That rio example could also be the result of a guitar that is differently tuned. Remember how they switch guitars with the old songs and new songs. The old ones are in Eb and the news ones in standard E tuning. The could've mixed it up.....I don't know.

Anyways, back to the 2002 tour:

the little things (before paradise city and such, patience solo..... impressed me about him + his stage movements. He got the same kinda approach on knocking on heaven's door. I'm convinced that those things will get him very far if he cary's out that "style" more out on the new songs.

However some things don't come out that well with his technique and style of playing.

- using "gain" / "overdrive" whatever the hell you want to name or catagorize it. The sound that those settings creates doesn't always compliment his playing technique. The way he strikes the strings and the way his hand moves on the fretboard is pretty risk-full. (also wearing a guitar low) There-for it doesn't come out to well on songs such as November Rain. His style doesnt suit that type of category.

He's awesome on the clean / crunched (solo) parts but he lacks suitement on some of the other leads. Robin Finck has great feel but to be able to show it properly he needs to play the things he is specialized in. And I'm sure he will in the future cause that (mainly) is why he was brought in. For Chinese Democracy!

Ok. Assume that the guitar is indeed tuned down a step or up. In the first few seconds they jam, shouldn't he realize this? Can't he shift his solo up or down a fret? ( It's not like it was tuned in open g tuning or something). Why would he continue to play the whole thing out of key? ???  That's the question.


Some really great songs don't have solo's. But if all ur songs don't have solos, u might as well be a pop band. (Or alternatively Metallica.  ;))


Whoa! Solo's are the staple of the rock industry and some of us like some songs only bcoz of the solo's in them. Speak for urself.

The Clash...the Sex Pistols....Nirvana. Pretty good bands...very few solos. I guess they are pop bands? Why don't you just admit that you only like rock and roll one way and all other avenues are closed! Typical Slash fan boy. :hihi:

Ramones!
Ye, but I think the POINT was that solo's are a part of Guns N' Roses, I couldn't imagine a good GN'R song without somekinda solo.
But obviously, all those are PUNK-rock bands. best blues based rockers have a solo.

Exactly...cookie cutter rock and roll. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. That is why the band broke up.

No man, Nirvana is a hard core guitar pumping rock band  :hihi:. I guess that settles ur case. And u were knocking me for quoting a Poison song.

You are not actually comparing Nirvana with Poison..are you???? Oh my god. Nirvana doesn't play guitars?  ::) Please tell me you are joking? The reek of cheese is all over the board. 8)

Anybody who thinks that Nirvana is a rock band is a stupid fool. Anybody who thinks Kurt Cobain can play solos is an even bigger fool. No questions asked.  :hihi:

P.S: This thread is about Robin Finck and not Nirvana. If u think GN'R plays 'cookie-cutter' rn'r and that Nirvana rocks, go to a fucking Nirvana board.  :P

I thought the solos he played fit the songs he wrote very nicely.

But I guess music is all about how great you play....  ::)


/jarmo

They're called fillers. atleast in most of Nirvana's songs, but it doesn't mean they suck.

I can pretty much guarantee that the new songs will be tuned half a step down, same as all GnR's other songs were/are. but I'm not 100% positive as I haven't tried to learn them. That tuning just works best with Axl's singing (Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, A, Eb), it's not like his voice has gotten higher or anything you know what I mean so i doubt they will switch to standard tuning? And his voice is too high for Drop D. I suppose 1 or 2 songs may have some fucked up tuning Open-G or whatnot but I doubt it). ?Anyway I don't thing He would picked up the wrong guitar, It's not his job to even do that, his tech prolly hands him the right guitar for the right song. He missed notes plain and simple (IMO Robin should just spend more time looking at his guitar than doing his little fairy dance with his eyes closed ;) )

And to whoever said it, he played patience like shit, every time i hear it on a bootleg of 2002 he fucks it up. It's not a hard solo but he still managed to fuck it up every time he played it. :rant: That's my biggest problem. He played NR awesome.. but fucked up Patience, how do you accomplish that? seriously. I can play that solo better than him with one hand up my ass!! :o

The lack of solo's is the reason why music sucks so much these days, I can't even remember where ?that trend came in. Mike McCready (Pearl Jam), Jerry Cantrell (AIC), Kurt Cobain (Nirvana), Dean DeLeo (STP) they all had solos (they weren't super fantastic ones but they still had them) New music now ??? Where did they go? It's almost like guitar players as a whole just got really shitty in a span of 3-5 years. If you don't think solos are important to a band like GnR then you have issues and you should have them addressed ..... immediately :nervous:

Ramones, Clash, Sex Pistols????? where are you getting this stuff? Totally different, the were anti-rock (In fact anti everything) that's what punk was. They had no solos cuz everyone else had them. And punk was hardly was mainstream. until the poor imitations like blink-180-spew came along :puke: and made it boy-band like

Really? I'm sure that a solo on guitar that's just the chorus played out note for note (Aka Smells like Teen Spirit) fits the song. I mean it's got to...  ;)


No, but some of us have higher standards of music.

But at least he made an effort to put a solo in the song :D Kurt was by no means a fantastic guitarist. He even said it himself time after time in interviews. He was a songwriter who also happened to play guitar. but he still had solos even if they were (very) elementary

Offtopic: Axl should hire David Gilmour to do Chinese Democracy solos  ;)

Ok, if you don't like Robin, that's fine. But there's no need to lie.

Axl wasn't pissed off with Robin, what the hell are you talkin' about? In RIR, the mix in The Blues was pretty bad, Paul's guitar riff got way too loud... but there was nothing wrong with Robin. Axl did get pissed off, but with the sound man - that's why he gets pissed with the guy while he was singin the first verse and, after that, he just looks very angry at the soundboard and says "ok, nevermind!".

In Detroit, if you pay attention, Axl screw up the lyrics in the new songs (especially in CD and RATB) because there was some problem with the teleprompter. In Patience, he was already fuckin' up the lyrics and just sing the fuckin' chorus way before it was supposed to do - the whole band looks pretty lost, but they tried to follow him.. After Axl sings "because the lights they shine so bright", which indicates the ending of the chorus and the begining of the solo, he just get pissed and left the stage. Again, there was NOTHING wrong with Robin, for God's sake.

Because Robin left the band in '99. Axl needed another guitarist, so he called Brian May, but he didn't want to get on tour. So, after a few months, Axl called Buckethead. There was no need to "fill a weak spot". Just read the articles on the site, man. Once Robin came back, Axl wanted to keep with Buckethead and tried the line-up with three guitars.

I think it's not just you, but I sure don't agree. Ok, Slash is one of my favourites of all time (with Hendrix, of course) and when he was still a member of the band, he made awesome solos and guitar work. But I would go with Robin's guitar in The Blues, Madagascar and Rhyiad anytime over Slash's work in VR.

Ok, I had to bring this stupid discussion again because it's not fair to judge Robin in his worst moments  and compare to Slash with his better performances.

I'm pretty sure that Chinese Democracy and KOHD uses Drop D. Also, Madagascar is played in Eb, but the chords looks like it were written in E.

Richard Fortus is the man.
BTW, I can't believe some people can bash robin about "Sossego", I'm not a Robin's fan, but come on guys he played very well on Sossego. It kicks ass! It's my favourite Robin's solo. I easiily give a 9/10 on that one.

Nobody is comparing Robin and Slash ok? Slash doesn't even figure in this discussion, so get that off ur chest.

Really? What's that?

: ok:

Oh, I forgot Neemo's post.  ::)


KOHD does not use Drop D.

alright sorry. I only heard the detroit show once so you are prolly right on that one. and I've never watched the video for RIR so you are prolly right there too. but wasn't Paul Tobias still in for RIR? either way I'm pretty sure it's the solo that goes all crazy on the recording I have. of the blues for that show.

OK I Just watched the blues for RIR and you are right as well. but he does look to the soundboard and point to Robin, then says "OK nevermind" then skips a line of vocals and goes to the back and adjusts robin's volume and comes back out to finish singing the song.

I already said this once but I actually didn't mind Robin other than the fact he Fucks up Patience (To my ears anyway) every time I heard him play it. He just always seems to fight with it. it's all choppy and crappy sounding. I dunno why. and it really bugs me to see the new band play that song. (And it's one of my favorite tunes by them, I guess that's why i get so mad about it). That is my only beef with Robin. He plays NR fantastic!!! and all the new tunes sound great!

As for comparing Slash to Robin. ?I was just stating that the new songs that we've heard are not as intricate as the stuff slash did while in GnR. (Robin has been a member since 97 (8 years? but he left for less than a year to do a short tour with nin so really 7 years) Slash was in Gnr from '85-'96 (11 Years, but no new tracks since '91 so really 6 years). we have madagascar, blues, cd, irs, silkworms, omg and rhyad to judge Robin on. how do these songs stack up (from a guitarists point of view) to WttJ, NR, Patience, CW, Sweet Child, NT, OIAM, DC, YCBM, Estranged, etc. etc. etc.? one new song compares, the blues (I am waiting for a clean version of IRS to judge that song cuz i can't hear shit on it). Maddy is great but its alot of synth and light on guitar. Slash is a better guitarist, plain and simple. nobody can deny it so don't even try. (we have no solo stuff to judge Axl against Slash's other projects so it's not fair to say anything derogotory against him in that fashion, Izzy, Duff, Slash and Axl had this awesome fucking magic when they wrote tunes together it was almost magical, can axl deliver similar tunes to old GnR? we'll have to wait and see but you can't just assume he will come out with killer songs like they did in the 80's and 90's, cuz if you do then you may be very, very dissapointed)

Bucket was brought in when? you can't say it was to replace robin cuz we never saw him till 01 and robin was back before then. : ok:

Robin may not be as good as slash but robin plays with much more emotion than slash ever did.

Why did you post that message dave-gnfnr2k?
It's just gonna do harm.

I HATE seeing that argument about emotion.
How do you tell who has more emotion? Is there some kind of test that every guitarists takes? Is there some kind of Emotion-O-Meter?

Just because someone closes their eyes when they play, or bends the strings a lot doesn't mean they have emotion. And if someone is constantly bending the strings too much so that it goes out of key, well they should just stop bending anyway....

I just don't see how anyone could say someone has more or less emotion than another player...

Fuck off with your emotion thing. You wann hear emotion? listen to OIAM, that is the rawest emotion on a GnR tune. Listen to NR and Estranged those are pretty good ones too. What kind of emotion does Robin have? we don't know!!! that's the point. Emotion!!! fucking dumbest argument about a guitarist that there is :rant: Cobain had more emotion than them all, was he a fantastic guitarist? no.

When talking about how good of a guitarist Robin is you have to compare him with the talent of other GnR guitarists before him

Robin is apparently the #1 guy, so he ultimately replacing slash, who was replaced by buckethead.

Is Robin in the same league with those two? I don't think so, but other people may.
is it a bad thing? No, Slash is one of the all time greats and Bucket is amazingly fast.
Does it mean I hate Robin? no, but the other two are more skilled guitarists (simple fact)
Will I buy CD and give Robin a fair shot? damn straight, but all i have heard is his live shit so he gets judged on that till the CD is released.
Do i still like GNR with no slash? I come here every day don't I?

Why would it do harm? Its true? People always wrongful bash BH for not having emotion which is why people say he is not as good as slash, well I am just giving Robin his props for playing with great emotion and more than slash. I dont see anything wrong with it.

Why don't you do an alltime list of the most emotional guitarists then? ::) Don't forget Courtney Love once a month  :hihi:

So why is it ok when people on this board say BH plays with no emotion and that is why slash is better, yet the minute someone says Robin plays with more emotion than slash you fly off the handle? Is it because you know I am right?

Robin is a great guitar player who plays with a lot of emotion, there is nothing wrong with saying that.

No it's because that statement is so utterly laughable it boggles the mind.

Having said that Robin is a great player. More emotional that Slash, I dunno about that, it's so hard to compare the two of them. They are do distant in terms of style it's just pointless to keep bringing this topic up. It always goes the same way.

They are both good players in their own way, I don't really consider one better or worse than the other at this point.

Nobody has ever denied it  8)

What statement is laugable?

How exactly do u define 'playing with emotion'? Emotion is what u feel listening to a guitarist play. BH is probably better than Slash in terms of technique and i've heard a lot of songs of his where he plays real nice, slow riffs. Now as for comparing Robin and these two guitarists, well Robin is just not in their league.

P.S: You seem to have a habit of bringing Slash into every discussion about Robin or Richard. Not too cool is it?

I was not the first to mention slash is this thread. And I think you mean BH not Richard ;).
As for saying Robin is not in the same league as slash or BH. I disagree.  He is a different style so he is not even in the same category of either of them. BH is a shredder and Slash is a blues based guitarist. Robin is more industrial.

Robin is better than most rock guitarist out there right now. I can?t wait to hear what he does on Cd. I think a lot of people will be surprised.

hehe  :hihi:

No just the second.


No I mean Richard. Whenever someone says something about the current GN'R guitarists, u bring up Slash. I can understand u not liking Slash, but then it really doesn't help the discussion does it?

Sossego is not all rhythm:
http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2JYFKG7XQ51DO0DR3XLG09MJ0L

Also, the solo at the end of Love Siege is clearly Bucket, but this clip is all Robin:
http://s45.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=03VVQS79VRTMV0GJGSBK2FJEJM

Good for you.

Yes, it does. At least Robin's guitar (I'm talkin' about the new band's version, of course).

There was no problem with Robin's volume, but with Paul's. Also, I think he just point in direction of the soundboard, not Robin.

He was, IMO. Now, I don't think he has the same creative work (wich makes me wonder if Izzy helped him back in the '80s).

August 4th, 1999
Robin Finck Leaves Guns N' Roses, Rejoins Nine Inch Nails
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=149

March 15th, 2000
GN'R: Buckethead In, Freese Out
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=234


Is that enough?

What comes first in mind of those clips, he plays some good rhytm, but when he tries to play fast it just doesn't work.

Bucket was in the project as early as dec 1999/ jan 2000. He is mentioned in the Rolling Stone article from that timeframe.

sure there is nothing wrong with saying it but, really who gives a crap about "emotion"? and how can you judge it? Just cuz i think a song is emotional to me doesn't mean it is to you. it's just a pointless argument.  I't like saying that Dave Mustaine is better at singing metal than Phil Anselemo cuz Dave's hair is longer. It's a joke.

I "flew of the Handle" at your remark cuz i was already in a discussion of talent for Robin vs. Slash and you said cuz Robin has more emotion. It came from left field and has nothing to do with what was being discussed IMO.

Well then robin should polish up on his "Blues" style cuz it's Slash/izzy songs that he's playing. BH didn't have a problem with the "Shedder" to "Blues" transition.

The Genre defining of musicians is stupid too. Either you can play the shit or you can't. What is GnR? Are they blues based? Shredder Based? Industrial Based?

They are a rcok band, and a professional guitarist in a band should be able to play his band's songs flawlessly. period. Is that too much to ask?

Sure whatever, that fuck-up was not Robin's fault.


Not really. When did Robin return?


Yeah izzy helped him, so, I doubt robin is the sole creator of the new guitar work as well.


I doubt it cuz it was supposed to be closer to Dylan's version than ever.... and I don't think Bob Dylan wrote anything in Drop D tuning :hihi: but whatever you say

Unless they did it so all Robin had to do was strum the top 3 strings. pretty hard to fuck that up huh? (BURN!!!! :hihi: )

I said you can not possibly know how he came to play it like that - whether it was intentional or accidental, whether it was through his employing an alternative method, whether it was due to his instrument not being tuned properly, whether it was him fucking around, or if he just completely fucked up.  And if it was the way he chose to play it - then you could not know why he chose to play it that way.

You say "The hows and whys of any type of playing is knowm" yet you can not possibly know what type of playing he employed.  Like you said "Guitarists can have different styles of playing".  Not only that but one guitarists can play in a variety of styles - one guitarist can even play the same piece in different styles employing different types of playing. 

You keep insisting that Robin doesn't know how to play guitar properly.  I believe there is much to substantiate that Robin does indeed know how to play guitar properly.  He's been playing guitar in a variety of bands since he was 15 years old; he was good enough to join NIN by the age of 23;  he was hired by Trent Reznor not once but twice;  he earned a Grammy award for a live performance with NIN;  he was both performer and musical director for the internationally renowned performance troupe Cirque Du Soleil; he's been deemed worthy of joining GN'R not once but twice; and he's performed & recorded with a variety of other artists. 

You are, for the most part, focusing on one performance which you can not understand.

Go find for yourself, dude. I just proved that Bucket replaced Robin, what else do you want?

Why do you doubt? Do you have any reason for doubt? Unless Robin had Bucket's help, he made the GOM tracks by himself... You're only trying to judge Robin as a bad writer, but has nothing to backup.

Uh, pretty stupid comment. It was supposed to be closer, but not exactly the same thing. Or I miss something and they played the song with accoustic guitars?

Go watch (and hear, for God's sake!) the 2002 DVDs. You can see Robin playing the chords in the intro (it's only him, no one else). If you really think the intro is only made with the top 3 strings, you obviously don't know shit about guitar playing (in fact, you're already saying enough to judge).

oh relax!!!? ::) geez. you are the one who said Robin was replaced by buckethead, but we don't know when robin returned, (And frankly I don't care)

I'm not saying robin is a bad writer. I'm just saying he's not as good of guitarist as Slash. that's all. GnR has always collaborated on song writing. why should this album be any different? in fact if anything, it'll be heavy on tunes Axl wrote.

as for the 2002 DVD's, I've only seen RIR and I toronto live. and to tell you the truth I didn't really pay much attention to Robin unless the spotlight was on him. All I know was that I didn't care for his rendition of patience on any of the bootlegs i've HEARD (aka mp3's) (london, on; detroit; msg; albany; Toronto; rir; vegas; pittsburgh; boston; columbus)

Do you ever play in Drop-D tuning? when you do the top 3 strings are a chord if you strum them open its "D" 1st fret "Eb" 2nd fret "E", 3rd fret "F", yada yada yada? :confused: am i wrong, I don't think so.? It really throws the playing of a song for a loop if you try to play a song written in standard tuning on a guitar tuned down to D. You have to be able to stretch your fingers pretty far if you are picking on it. I really doubt they tuned Robin (or anyone for that matter) down to Drop-D for KOHD. but i could be wrong cuz I've never looked for it. Do you know how to play guitar? did you understand all that?

Creed was notorious for playing Drop-D but there is no way to play the majority of their songs in standard tuning. And Nickleback does it all the time too, and you cant play most of their songs in standard as well. a few RATM songs are down to D. A couple Pantera tunes. I can play quite afew Drop-D songs and when i do it I play a few at once cuz sometimes I can't be bothered to tune back up right away ;D .

I remember that Robin's webmaster said that Robin is the writer of The Blues solo (by that time, people were claiming it was Zakk Wylde's. This is not a proof, but at least is something to look at.


Of course I know. The question is: did you?

The Drop-D isn't only for fast power-chords or whatever you want to do with only the top 3 strings. It gaves a heavier sound with the first string in D (wich is the second chord of the song, after the G one). You can notice Robin using only one finger to reach the top-3 strings, while he play some licks with the free fingers.

I did just watch it and he plays an "G" power chord like an "G" power chord. not a Drop D "G" power chord. He bars the top 3 strings with his index finger and the A&D strings with his ring finger 2 frets up. get a clue man they didn't rearrange the song for Drop-D tuning.

Here's the exact quote from Axl,
"his next song... I thought that since this a new band.... and this next song is a timeless song.. we would move a little closer to the original.... and do our own version.... of a song by Bob Dylan"

or in other words they don't use cheesy "Tracy and Roberta" and "I'll sing One, then You sing one, and I think you KNow the words" and "Giveme some REGGAE!!!!!"

not rewrite the song in a different tuning ?::)

Higher standards? you quoted a poison song for gods sake. And anyone who compares CC deville to Robin Finck has zero credibility. CC is a laughing stock, he can't play for shit and everyone knows it. CC deville, god what is wrong you man?  :nervous:

Dude CC can play guitar. but he goes fucking overboard. Like 20 minutes of solo on the song. he won't stop. When i saw poison in 2002 he was constantly acting like a nut to try and get attention from bret michaels onto himself. seriously he just breaks out into solos out of nowhere and goes on forever. If Axl was singing and CC was guitar like that, Axl'd prolly walk over to him and smack him upside the head with his mike :hihi:

GnR is the Axl show when Axl's on stage.

Besides Genesis already said he was fucking around about that.

Oh boy, you're the one who needs to get a clue. Take a look at him playing the G chord:

(http://www.voodoochild.kit.net/voodoo/G chord.JPG)

If you can't see the pic, you can download the video:

http://s55.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=39ISLV1ASUJ3305AA53KOOENLO

He don't use the top string, as you can see. I used the Boston screen-shot version... Try again. : ok:


WTF? Do you really think he is rewriting the song with just a drop-D tunning? LOL!!!

kudos man!!!!  : ok: that's an awesome shot! all i had was RIR 3 and its a side shot. When he goes to the 5th fret he hammers down there with his pinky and it looked like he was playing a "G" powerchord at the 3rd fret from that angle. but your's shows it clear as a fucking bell. fifth fret "G" drop-D tuned power chord. that's messed.

Is he using that tuning for patience as well? Cuz that would explain why it sounds all fucked up.

You are right and i humbly bow down to you :beer:

My respect for Robin has now gone up a notch :yes:

Saying guitarist A is 'more emotional' than guitarist B. It's subjective reasoning. Robin's playing moves you, which is cool. It doesn't move others. Same with Slash. There is no concrete way to quanitify who is more emotional. It's all down to each individual person.

There are people who say that Neil Peart is the greatest drummer that ever lived. I personally hate his playing and think he is stiff as a board. To my ears Bill Bruford is a much better drummer because I can get into his feel. Personal opinions abound.

No, it's the regular tuning. I don't think it sounds all fucked up.. In fact, I think the rhythm guitar he made to the song is awesome, tough in RIR3 he indeed fucked up.

:beer:

I never compared CC to Finck. And I don't listen to Poison. The only reason Poison was quoted was because they used dissonance in a solo.

You stated Axl should get CC as lead guitarist therefore inadvertenly comparing him to Robin.  : ok:

its good to see people realise^

But the whole,comparing Robin and Slash thing is really kinda obsolete TODAY, .......because like some one posted it all subjective to what stirs emotions in people , and some will gravitate to theirs on these matters. BUT , If you are lookin at it with fresh ears, and eyes, and seeing what is the now, alot more would apreciate it . I somehow tend to thnk alot has to do with the fact that soooooo many didnt see the 2002 shows live. DVD, audio, whatever, really dont do justice to the real deal.


Slash played a vital role in GNR , in his time there, I am absolutley sure Robin, will play a huge part for GNR in its future.

When the fuck did I say Axl should get CC? That was madagas.  Stop misquoting people.

Thanks voodoochild. Your hard data is a telling blew. 
And the sensible ones comprehend that and improve themselves.  : ok:

This one, on the other hand?


Don't misquote. Quote whom you are talking to.  ::)


Huh? Unlike you I can distinguish FACT from FICTION.

This is my view on the pair for their joint works, as is stated clearly.

This is pure speculation stated as FACT.

Neemo put 'IMO' in his post cos he's cool.

Besides it's unlikly. They need Robin's talent as well as BH's.
like voodoo said, officially Bh's 'in' was reported on March 15th, 2000.
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=234

while Robin was still out in this article of April 13th, 2000
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=243

Apparently Robin came back after BH joined. Case closed.


Who are you to crap on others honest opinions that way, to start with?
Now you explain why you call my humble opinion crap adequately or cut the crap already.

Obviously, you have no idea what i meant and obviously you don't understand sarcasm when u see it.

Yoda: The Jedi Master known as Yoda (896 BBY?4 ABY), voiced by Frank Oz, is a fictional character in the Star Wars universe. He appears in all of the franchise's installments except for ''. Like many names in Star Wars, the name "Yoda" may be etymologically derived from the Sanskrit yoddha ("warrior") and/or the Hebrew yodea'' ("one who knows").

Must I explain everything to u?



Ok. Robin did rejoin after BH joined. I take back the 'Techincally sound...' rant. Happy?

thanks ppbebe :-[ :D

good find. Man I'm getting proved wrong everywhere :-\ that's it I'm not posting anything more about Robin cuz obviously I don't know shit about him :hihi:

Pleasure, Neemo.
You stand corrected. Isn't it great to know more about him?
As I said I believe the difference between cool individuals makes all the difference. 
I like hearing different opinions, civil discussions and getting something new.
Gosh I sound bloody goodygoody. :P


Why not. You haven't explained anything. I already told you to go find Yoda's post not mine.
Go on. Show your true colors. ::)


Good for you. :yes:
And? What about my other question?

We won't know the real deal about Robin, and how he really compliements Axl, until we hear some new music from GNR.  He has HUGE shoes to fill, but I have yet to hear him "tear it up" on a new GNR song.  I don't count when he plays old GNR songs, because that doesn't show us how well he can create his own music.  The only way I can judge him for sure is to hear CD.  Unless I am invited to Axl's recording studio, I won't be hearing it anytime soon.

I give up!  :rofl:
Here's a tip for u: Forget the Yoda remark.


About the crap remark? Whether it was ur 'honest opinion' or not, it was crappy.  :P
BucketHead and Robin have nothing in common.

That's the idea.


I beg to differ. I think they don't have nothing in common.

Yep, they're different to each other.
As I said I believe it's the difference between the talented individuals that makes the music earthshattering.
2 heads are better than one.
If they were identical, they'd be two bodys with one head. There would be No point in being two.
No point in being a band. No point in talking with others.

Nope.
As I said, both of them are musicians with individuality. Seem Characters as well.   
Both are called Freaks and have gone through abuse by the haters.
The two shared the goals. For instance, to make GN'R music together.
Their riffs both sound delicate and original in their respective ways to me.

BTW, by saying these, I'm no way in the hell up to ramming my opinion down anyone's throat. I'd rather hear what opinion if any, people have of this. Then again Philly is right, we are yet to hear enough materials to discuss the matter. what's more, one of them is out now. Bah!
When I get more, I might have to change the idea. It's true with anyone. Who knows? ;)

Fair enough. We shall revive this topic, when more material is available.  :smoking:

I think a good example of to much overdrive is Out Ta Get Me from RIR3. There is so much distortion in that song, the end result is embarassing


I definately think Patience was lackluster during RIR3 and just over average on the 2002 tour, which is something I dont get..He can play PC and SCOM flawlessly, but such a simple acoustic track, he cant.

I entirely agree with that post. Dave, how can you say Slash and Robin aren't in the same category therefore, they cant be judged in the same sentence, but say Robin plays with more emotion than Slash.


As far as I know, Robin only left GnR to go on the Fragility tour in '99 and its really bad I cant remember how long that tour exactly was since I actually caught of the shows


I had never hear that story quite that indepth before. Imagine being in the audience and seeing Axl just freeze right up.. to me, it would be unreal. The band must have also felt pretty lousy backstage too. :-\