Here Today... Gone To Hell!

is it that evil in the USA ?
i mean, what's wrong with wanting to help people out and share?

something i will never understand is how poor people, or let's say very middle class people,  can go for extreme capitalism and "power to the rich" type of system, when they aren't rich.
is it the hope to be rich one day ?

I for one am against socialism because it takes away more freedoms and enlarges the government's grasp over the people.  Government's don't give back rights once they take them.  I'm against socialism because it's extremely inefficient.  I've never witnessed anyone on this board exclaim "powert to th rich."  Capitalism is about efficiency and the best product.  Wal-Mart is the epitome of capitalism and it's great. You get quality products at 2/3 to 1/2 the price you would at other stores.  Capitalism forces competition so that better products are created and is the only system of government in accordance with true liberty.  America's healthcare system is the best in the world and is accessible to most because of capitalism.  Where do Canadian leaders and Middle Eastern princes come to for their medical care -- the answer is the US and the cause behind it all is capitalism.
  I personally never intend to be "rich" but I do plan to be well off (high middle class).  Capitalism allows me to market my talents and abilities on a fair playing ground with others.  Capitalism allows me to make choices that are best for me.  Socialsm forces one inefficient standard down eveyone's throat.  If you're really interested in understanding why some of us advocate free market capitalism, I highly recommend reading Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose."  This book essentially outlines my and every other libertarian's point of view on social policy, economics and the governement.

so yes, i can see how the "dream" to live well (which i can tell can be sum up to *buy possess things*) is the goal behind the acceptance of capitalism.

wal-mart is great ? how can it be great ? the point of wal mart is "buying things" . is that what life is supposed to be about?

i understand the nice argument of "freedom to chose" and "if you work you're rewarded".
but capitalism, and the world as we see it today, shows one thing : loosers lose.

and there will always be losers. people that are ugly. people that can drive. people that are stupid.
what do you do with that ?

what i like about socialist (in a dreamy way) systems is that the people who succeeds can support the people who fails.
just remember when you where a kid, when kids story were about helping people, and the bad kid was the big capitalist one that does not share.


off course the governement has to be efficient, and moral and ethical, but it can work. it's harder to make a socialist govmt work than a simple capitalist one.
the point of human being being on earth is that people who succeed and get rich, must help the people who aren't - even if a real american would say no-.

but we have the same thing in France, people who lives in crappy homes and have no money and still root for the right wing because they hope, one day - that will never come - they will be rich - that's why they play the lottery i guess, funny how they use luck and not the system itself -

socialism can't work i guess when people don't wanna lower out standards. but we'll come to that. soon enough. we'll realize that we want too much.

You plan to be well off (high middle class) ?
the way i see it is that there is 10 part of a cake, and 5 people
and that you want 6 parts because lets say you're the strongest, and you dont care what othe other have.

a more social system would force the people to eat 2 parts each, and everyboyd is happy.

Why do you hate social programs so much? Why do you hate helping other people?

Please, spare me on the "pull themselves up by their boot straps" rant. I want a real answer. Why is it wrong to help other people?

I am certainly in support of social programs to help poor people. As a society we should all help one another, not be focused on the latest flat screen tv. I can certainly create a balance and allow myself to get ahead, while helping others.

Actually people are flying to India and other countries because the medical care is better (more RNs on duty, private rooms, one on one care, time with a Dr. instead of a nurse), the care facilites are better, and the cost is 1/10 that of the USA. People seeking cancer treatments are not financially ruined when they get a bill for 250k.

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

Walmart actually encourages socialist type behavior. Why? Because they pay their employees so shitty that most can not offer the insurance offered by walmart without going into the negative. So in turn walmart offers them government insurance programs to pay their medical. It is, our tax money, including yours goes to pay for the health insurance of these people you probably look down on. Because a greedy, low paying corporation won't provide the means for affordable health insurance. In turn it is pawned off on the American people to pay for. Bet you didn't know that.

Bet you didn't know that....

I'm not against helping people on an individual basis. ?I can't stress enough how important the concept of the individual is to me. ?Socialsm does nothing but tear that concept down. ?People should help their fellow man if at all possible. ?However social programs are run by an inefficient government by bureaucracies that have no other interests but their own longevity. ?To quote Friedman "Asking for a system any other way would be like asking for a cat that barks." ?I the individual, community support group, etc. can much more productivley make sure that the money is going to those who need it most and being used properly. ?I distinctly remember when I was a small child my parents refused to buy me name brand clothes or name brand anything. ?Being young one aspires to fit in and the children on welfare would be wearing Nike's and getting name brand pop and chips with their food stamps while their parents bought cigarettes with the cash stipend each month.
 
The point of that story isn't that I didn't get name brand stuff when I was a kid. ?The point was that my family who was middle class and both of my parents whom worked were paying into a system where some mother could stay at home and pop out more kids every year to get money (this was before the Clinton welfare reforms.) ?My ultimate problem with social problems is that I have no choice into which ones I support. ?There are numerous programs that I strongly disagree with, yet my tax dollars go to it all the same, just as I'm sure many of your tax dollars goto programs you dislike. ?Under a true free-market system, we could place our monies into organizations we beleived in and in doing so those programs would be more responisble and accountable. ?To summarize SLC, I have no problem helping people, I do it all the time. ?I just hate being forced under penalty of jail if I don't.

Can you provide a link or citation for that.  Not that I don't believe you (seriously), but I'd like to skim it over myself.

Americans are going to canada for perscription drugs, not actual medical treatment.  Your argument is flawed about people going to India.  People don't goto a third world country and expect to get the same quality of care as you would get in America.  Our medical technology and skill surpasses every other civilized country in the world, plus you don't have to wait 6 months to get surgery here (like you do in Canada).

That is what I said, people are going to Canada to get meds not medical surgery. You are trying to change what I said (as usual)

It is not flawed, it's fact.

http://www.bumrungrad.com/

 is in Thailand and I just saw big story on it about Americans who fly there for heart and cancer treatments for a fraction fo the cost.

I can't remember the hospital(s) in India, but they were world class facilities: every single person on staff was an RN, not somebody making 5 bucks an hour (capitalism at it's worst) to change your bed. Private rooms, doctors who spend time with you and many who also practice, or have worked in America first.

One point on the India "Hospital" you're mentioning (if it's the one I'm thinking of).? I have a bit of firsthand knowledge on that particular subject.

It IS a worldclass facility.? It DOES have the best and brightest working there. It DOES have the best equipment money can buy. It DOES pay it's staff comparably well (when compared to the pop of India).

It's also not really a "hospital" in the traditional sense of the word.? By the strictest definition, it is, but...well, let me explain.

The place is more like a world class resort than it is a hospital:? You need to make reservations and actually get them approved (ie: prove you can pay the fees) before you get treated.? There are Clinics like this in the US, as well, though you're right..they tend to be more expensive than their counterparts in India...largely because you can live in India like a prince on far less than you can in the US.? But make no mistake, you're not getting into this place if you're "Joe Schmoe" or if you want to pay via HMO.

So to equate it to a common PUBLIC hospital (where the "common man" is cared for) might not be the most acurate comparison. While what you said is 100% true, the impression it give is a little bit misleading.

You might not be paying 250k for your treatment, but you're not walking out the door with a $500 copay, either.

Edit:

Medicine and Medical Care Facilities are a sticky subject for me...they hit very close to home.

The institution I work in is BIG, known around the world, and...non-profit.  We have more than our fair share of Arabian Princes, Celebs, etc who come here for treatment, so we hear about places like the one you mention a LOT.

No, no I did not mean to imply that.

I did claim that the rate is about 1/10 of American costs.

If I had cancer and the treatment was 100k, I'd have to fork over 10k for the "stay".

I mean, look what kind of care and surroundings you get though. If I were facing something like that 220k bill or pay cash to fly around the world and have worldclass care...I'd take choice two.

I saw many people (on 60 minutes) only took that route because of cost. They'd pay 10k for a heart surgery because they knew the cost would kill them at home.

Also in this country, just because Joe Sixpack pays his HMO the copay does NOT mean your treament will be paid. You know that though. That is why I think it's better. I pay you XX amount of money and you treat me. Follow ups may be a tad difficult though...lol, but nothing is perfect.

One of the worst things I had to deal with was recovering for multiple surgeries (back to back) and having an HMO begin to deny my claim. Now that is a way to recover!  ::)

I agree, actually.? For a whole host of reasons relating to reimbursement (specifically by Medicaire and Medicaid), lowball payment by the HMO's, etc.? All of those issues lead to the healthcare facility not usually getting much more than "cost" (which includes professional fees) on a procedure, if anything.? I think,? if everyone paid cash up front, you'd actually see a reduction of charges.? But that's just a pet theory...

The problem is....not everyone has that 10k to pony up, up front.

In addition, that facility in India is really under no risk of "losing" money.? They get paid up front, so don't need to build in any of the actuarial garbage that most US facilities need to bring in.? That, and malpractice insurance in the US is astronomical....and those docs over in India don't have to worry a whit about either that, nor the incredibly litigious US court system.

There ARE things, untangible in some cases, that the extra 90% buys you....worth it or not is the question, obviously.

free market that will support organizations that will, the, help people ... this makes no sense ... you're going back to what you hate.
the governmenet IS the organization that you're talking about.
but as it does not work perfectly, you diss it, and think free-market organizations will behave more efficiently... no way... it will be the same.

and why ? because men are evil in their way, and if an organisation does not force them to help each other out they won't.

complain about taxes ? are you kidding me ? try to imagine a world without taxes ? ... entrepreneurs would go "yeah no tax ! so we can hire people and all ...." don't lie to yourself. we wouldnt do it.
i am not an extreme communist that would say that companies just wanna keep the money (cause money must be used in the end ...). but if social system did not exist, poors would be really poor.

just look at it this way. see how many people are discarded from the american society ? this is insane.

By definition, socialism and communism lead to fachism. We had several exemples in History. It doesn't work, simply because it is against the human beeing values.
 A social policy only works when the Economy is in the green. You can spend the money only if you have money. and to create money(to be in the green), people need to be free and create business whenever they want. As a consequence, Free Market is a necessity. The chalenge is how to regulate all that. It's a question of regulation. Liberalism with regulation is a factor of progress.

to throw down a bit for "mr music" , not that it affears that he is in the need of assistance at all, Im from canada. Most of you know that by now. it is at one of its lowest places that it has been in years, the main talk is a 2 teir health care system, not relegated by your ability to self pay the pblic system would be completely open to all citizens regardless of networth, but a second system would be laid down over the top for people who can pay can do so and speed their medical treatment. First off im not agnist this idea, but in its current state im not in favour of it. Simply because it allows for paying citizens to jump line for different testing and treatments, such as MRI, heart surgery, etc. , becuase the pay system would be using the current infastructure to do a large section of its work. You go to the standard ER in any hospital and if your paying you go ahead except for the basic triage seperation walking talking and bleeding (ambulance rides) bleeding goes first, if you can walk and talk you last, broken bones go in the middle and then heart attacks and all come in over the top in first but there are not 100 HA's coming in every hour.

to get signed off on this 2 teir seperate private funded testing facilties would have to be establishedER is for everyone, no net worth biasis. a great pressure would come off our current system due to these private testing facilties, as the public system could purchase time on these machines at off hours say 5am-8am and 8pm-1am. somethig as simple as that would get me to sign off on it, granted there are many finer points as well that can be discussed and tuned but overall that would make me happier with it.

now back to my main point at hand, i agree that there is far too much weight that sits on the top of the scale in most govermetn controled agencies, there need to be more on the ground in your face doing teh jobs, the base line personel need better pay, persons on welfare need to get that shit buttoned up, seriously this is where i get down to using mandatory ID carding for all citizens that re required for work food stamps etc. no more dicking around in the back rooms doing work under teh table and getting cash, tie the food stamps to the card so you never see them and if you dont have your card you can claim em, neither can anyone else. eliminate cash across board go pure electronic, have big brother with more eyes in you shit, you can only use that card nothing else to get money, if money enters that card and your on welfare your flagged, and monitered... im sure you see where im getting..... its not what mr music was saying its the complete opp. but there is a need for more goverement control into these areas. there are far too much grey area dealings going on. just think of the small boom that would occur if all cash jobs became taxed andrecorded wages? hell im sure you could boost gdp by a full 2% points. I know in my provience there was a grey market study done on the cash economy and it was estimated that there is a economy about 15% the size of the offical economy that runs rampent in everyones lives. Im after doing many cash jobs, I know of people that have been double and tripple dipping the welfare game, claming from 3 different offices in 2 different areas, and because of the shar lack of personel on the front lnes went un noticed for 3-4 years and was ordered to repay, couldnt got tossed in jail for 3 months and released and went back on welfare....


the over all problem is that there is lack of understanding at the top of what is exactly happening at the bottom, and all that is said is cut x amount from your budget, so they cut front lines and keep themseleves......

capitalism is the worst "democratic" system on earth, and we'll have to pay (humans, earth) for it one day.

soon, i'm afraid.

is human race on earth to product, to make money ?

or are we all here for something more generous, interesting, spiritual ?

i don't like to live in a merchants's world.

You're all a bunch of tree-hugging hippies.

all in all you're just another brick in the wall

Yea! If you don't like it in America, you can leave!

Bunch of complainers!

I'm not even going to pretend to be as knowledgeable as some you are on this subject.  But I will say that any system that doesn't allow me to live better than someone who is lazy and has no ambition, bothers me.  I work hard, I'm educated, and I carry a great deal of responsibility.  I think I should live better than some of the people I employ.  Sorry if that seems snobby, but that's how I feel.

On the other hand, I know how important social programs are.  I work for a non-profit that is directly funded by both federal and state social programs.  Believe me, everytime there is a republican in office, we just hold on and hope we survive the term, because funding is always tight and is always threatened.  But I would be afraid to give up on that funding, give everyone tax cuts, and hope that they would see fit to keep supporting us.  I just don't think it would happen.  A large part of my clientelle is developmentally disabled.  People don't like retarded people.  They like to pretend they don't exist.  I don't think they would give us their money.  We never get private donations or even outside volunteers.

While I personally believe in minimum regulation, this is a great post nesquick : ok: As someone who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, I know from firsthand experience that socialism does not work. It only ruins things for everyone (well, except the oligarchs in the party who live like kings at the expense of everyone else). I am appalled that people would ask the question of this thread :nervous:

off course socialism does not work.
but we are living in a dream where we think that capitalism works and makes us happy because puff daddy has a golden car.
i guess you guys don't watch the news.

you rather have everybody eating normally, or some having all the cake they want, and the others dying (cause that's what's going on)

and sterling, here we go with the "you dont want someone lazy get ressource while you are working and all ... " off course .... natural ...but you are forgetting that, next to the lazy person, there is the person who just fails, and can't do good, not because he's lazy, but because he's weak ....

are we all gonna think like nietzsche ? only the strong survive ?

nesquick said it, "  it is against the human beeing values ", and that is exactly why we need socialism, because it's only way to force people to be nice (organization driven from free-market , or a strong governement, same thing ...)

but we will come to that, we've been experiencing free-market since the begining of time, money is what made what the world is today, and it's about to explodes -socially-:)

sad thing, is that kids on this forum, can think like that...come on, you'll have time when you're old and grumpy to right wing capitalist, you're young, be a rebel :) ahah .

yeah well, i'm off making video games :)

An intelligent mixture of the two may be a success. As a society, I don't see capitalism as advancement for mankind.

This is because our patents aren't respected in other places.  Canadians simply do not have to pay for the research and development costs.  Basically, we are paying the R&D costs for the rest of the world.

Naw....it couldn't be because the pharmaceutical companies in this country are grossly over pricing our meds could it?

That's questionable. Either way, even the poor (or "weak" if you like, though I don't think the two are interchangeable) in capitalist societies are better off than everyone in socialist ones.


You have that "evil" capitalism to thank for that. Without "greedy" corporations there wouldn't be any video games. And that's just one thing you wouldn't have. You wouldn't have CDs or iPods. You wouldn't have bands touring (unless they were state sponsored propaganda bands).Rebellious bands like Guns N' Roses would most certainly be banned. You might have a TV, but it would probably still be black and white and the only thing you'd be able to watch on it is the state sponsored propaganda channel. Life would be pretty damn boring, but you know what? That will be the least of your troubles. Wait until the government starts suspecting you of being a "capitalist," regardless of whether you really are or not, and the police come and take you away in the middle of the night to some barn and torture you and bludgeon you. Wait until you make an offhand joke criticizing the state, and you suddenly disappear never to be heard from again. But no, there's nothing wrong with giving the state so much power. After all, it's in the name of equality and justice. Everyone will have equal(ly bad) health care and education (which they won't be able to do anything with).

Rebelling is not cool if you're rebelling against sanity in favor of lunacy.

A Chinese kid rebelling against that police state is cool.

A rich white American or European kid wearing a Che Guevera or CCCR (Soviet Union) shirt is about as pathetic loser as it gets.

Apparently it's not working on you - even though France is a "socialist" country (right now it's going towards capitalism but whatever). I don't know if your posts are really what you think and what you are in real life, but I don't see any kindness or compassion in them.

Calling people who don't succeed weak, ugly or stupid is not really the values we grew up with here but I see that in almost each of your post. Being idealistic is good, but you should apply some of your theories to yourself! ;)

As SLC said, a good (intelligent) mix of socialism and capitalism should work and should advance mankind. I don't believe in an all socialist society (where usually unemployment is very high) or an all capitalist society (where all you think about is money).

Sarcasm missed....

But you must consider who missed it......

Then there is no suprise.

that was the less serious of my comments ...( even if it has some truth in it ...)

and Will, yes i'm nice, i'm very nice :) - i mean, really , why do yuo think i'm not nice ? :( -

when i say weak, i mean the loosers (in the winner-loosers situation of extreme capitalism). and yes we have to help them.
capitalism kinda is a situation where, if you don't fit it, if you don't succeed, then it's your fault. it shouldnt be.
see all the poor countries in the world ?
to clean our conscience we like to think that's its their fault (and some people here really think that).
it's not their fault.

capitalism today has become PREDATOR capitalism. and even very liberal (economix wise) thinkers are saying that now, capitalism is no longer a bout CREATION (of wealth, of jobs, of movement) but it is about PREDATION. and that's where we're going the wrong way.

we are decadent. and we're bringing the *capitalism* with us in our decadence.  people that defend today's rich countries system defends it, as they see it in a dreamy way. while it's no more like that. we're not seeing how perverted it became.

POP
and no socialism is not about living in the farm. i'm pro cities, i love video games and designer clothes for my girlfriend.
it's just that we have to face that OUR application of capitalism inour society today, leaves so many people on the side. world wide, and locally.

socialism must be about people / organization (and i'm sorry, but a governement is the most efficient thing we can get) that will use the wealth and movement created by our production to make sure most people are sufficiently happy.

example: a tax on stocks exchange tradings. simple.

but again, complicated subject.

I don't believe in a "minimum" regulation. I believe in regulation. It's like rules. They should be strong. It should be enough powerfull to avoid the jungle laws, to protect people, to finance social programs, but it shouldn't take the Economy in hostage (like the communist political regims) or to take their freedom away. Lots of people are afraid by capitalism, but come on the immense majority of people are MUCH more wealthier now than a century ago. People live better now in western countries. Let the Economy whisper. What is done in europe is pretty good, even if it's still way too centralised, with a loud "bureaucratie". European countries should be more tonic, but what is done is already pretty good though.

so chirac, de villepin and sarkozy are socialists ?

ok, thx for the news.  :rofl:

anyway, USA is the N?1 of capitalists countries, do you really feel it's still a democracy ?

USA looks more like an empire right now...but a very fragile one.
and it's dangerous for the entire world.
USA government even don't separate religion and politics, like in the countries they want to fight with.

Nobody in France is socialist or communist in the sense of staline or lenine (exept LO or LCR- but seriously who vote for them?) . the PS is nowhere near to be socialist in the sense of this topic. They are as socialists as Tonny Blair :hihi:

Current political parties in France aren't "socialist", but France is indeed a socialist country, even though it's going towards capitalism right now. France has a socialist history since Jean Jaur?s and L?on Blum.

And yes, America is still a democracy. Of course it is, don't believe everything Karl Zero says (French TV version of Bill O'Reilly, but on the liberal side and openly dislikes America). I'm not saying America is an example to follow, but I certainly don't think France is either (10 million unemployed people ain't exactly a great success in my book) - except for the wine and a few other things! ;D

there is no success possible.
and we gotta stop thinking country-wise.
i mean, we're in the world now.

(and yes karl zero gets on my nerves)

Sure, I didn't say otherwise. ;)

karl zero is a sociologist now ?  :hihi:
sorry i don't watch tv too much.

of course they are socialists and communists in france. they don't gouvern at the moment, that's all.

when i ask if you people think USA is still a democracy, i'm refering more about the artists who lives there
and think it's not, as David Bowie, or maybe the Rolling Stones, and of course some sociologists who think
it's dangerous to see america attacks irak without some concertations with other countries, for example.

and it's strange to see a big country like the US , with all these images of liberty, etc...becoming
this weird country more hypocrit than religious, in fact i love a part of the USA, the USA of tim burton,
woody allen, but when i see in the other hand than USA is the first country who kill the planet with it's
industry (USA is never there to sign some anti-pollution stuff) i can't say capitalism is the way.

of course in france (and a lot of european countries) they're unemployed people, but at least we have a decent
social protection. what about the poor people in USA ? maybe they work, but for peenuts, without any protection.
and there are a lot of people living in the streets too, but of course we don't see it too much on tv.

there is no example to follow, in my opinion, but a collective, worldwide discussion to have, and no, no G8 please,
it's just bullshit as we all see recently.

He's a freakin communist.



Maybe you don't watch the right channels. On French TV they just love to show the bad side of America, just like they do there about France. Don't you think there are poor people in France or Europe who are left out? It's just the same, sure the social protection is better here, but take a walk at night in Paris or in the subway, you'll see poverty all over the place, people sleeping on the streets, etc. There are left out people everywhere, in socialist and capitalist countries, the figures may not be the same, but these people just suffer the same.



I do agree about that, unfortunately I'm not really optimistic about seeing such a discussion... :(

The US is a democratic republic, if I remember correctly, not a "pure" democracy, but close enough.

It's that whole electoral college thing that's the difference.  We elect our "supreme leader" not by popular vote, but by electoral votes by state.  Each state of the republic gets a say based on population.

Not that it matters...or anyone cares.

i would also like to say that it's healthy for a society to have several political ideology represented
im happy we have communist in france
im happy we have socialist
and right wing.
we need all that. we need extreme left winger, we need people that still think there is a revolution needed and blah blah blah, the presence of communism in a political field is healthy.


the last thing we want is, like in the us, 2 major sides that in the end ...are very much the same ...

the only thing that we don't need is right wing extreme (saying racism and nationalism ...). this is not healthy
but a political party like the communist make the other parties don't forget soem basic social stuff....


so let's go on a communists are evil thing .... where 's mccarthy ?

Karl Zero is biaised. It's weird because he seems pretty intelligent and clever, but he is very anti-american (like Canal + as a whole, I don't even want to talk about "les guignols de l'info" who are sometimes barely racists against USA). I think they are part of this whole alter-mondialism/anti-americanism trendy way of thinking. They are "gauchistes", or, at least, they are VERY lefties. In a long term, it's dangerous for people watching them almost everyday. I think it's dangerous for the youngest people, and it's dangerous for the french society. I also never ever appreciated how they turned Ben-Laden or Arafat in a "sympathic" sense while they are/were international criminals and terrorists. It biaised the public opinion. Criminals are now sympathic people...This is not responsible.

well they are supposed to be funny .... and if you watch shows like The Daily Shows in the Us they're as much anti-american as the french comedians... so ....
so what do you want ? everybody to think like you ?
we need people that think differently and re-question the standards....

Is that right? Sounds like France is exactly like the US though: hello PS and UMP. Sure there are other parties, but none of them will ever be elected, even for a Prime Minister or something. I do think it's a good thing we have several parties, I don't think it's good we have racists parties (hello FN and MPF), especially when one of them managed to get in the second round of presidential elections in 2002. We do make huge mistakes too and as I said previously aren't really an example to follow.



That's an interesting point of view, because many people think left revolutionary parties (such as the LCR) are very dangerous too.



Who said they are evil?



I do agree with Nequick about Les Guignols. They're so anti-US it makes me sick. They have stopped being funny about 8-9 years ago.

Sure The Daily Show is anti-US (in an actual funny way, I really don't think the French comedians are funny, but whatever), but Jon Stewart is...American! It makes me laugh when an American is mocking his own country, but not when French lesson givers take cheap shots on America. No offense, but The Daily Show is a hundred times better than Les Guignols! ;D

well, yes, the guignols started to bore me years ago, but you're down talking about how funny or not funy they are .... when a comedian gets on risky subject people start judging him out of the "comedy" context because they think he's not funny ... anyway.

well people think revolutionnaries parties are dangerous because we've be trained to think so in regards of the (bad) exemple-events in history ....
au contraire, extreme right wing is naturraly dangerous

you don't have to know history or be educated (hmm?) to see the danger in " get all the foreigners out, and black people stinks" - simplification -
a kid would naturrally be offended by right wing thesis.
BUT
a kid would easily sympathize with social concept and theories.

thats a big point some guy in a french (VERY) good political tv show " Riposte " said ....
social thesis are natural to kids : we want to share, we want to help people, we're offended by the rich big boss and are more on the side of the poor workers ....

and, then when we're corrupted by society , and grow up we sometimes tend to become a rightwinger (sp?).
yes yes.


i say, we gotta listen to women and kids

;)

agree with WAT-EVER for the whole thing.

anyway, a better system must be find for humanity, i have no doubt about that.

but where are the ideologists in these days ? we have politicians, who thinks they are managers
or biznessmen, they have no vision at all.

yes, there was a nice big file in " les enjeux" magazine months ago, and they were pointing that political / economics thinkers and ideologist are not put on front.
Only fake politician are on tv and in the news, there is no vision.
we are so blinded by our problems (and by THE growth obsession) that rich countries don't have any vision or thinkers.

i mean, look at global warming and sustainable devellopement (sorry, i know these are very trendy) but they show how rare a society think of global problems for long terms.
the world will go nowhere if we continue to think about taxes, kids in the hoods ans stuff like that. and also if people continue to vote and map their opinions on easy / shock / simple subject.

it could be interesting to have new guns members opinions about that, and axl's one too of course.

We all know how environmentally friendly the USSR was. ::)

No. That's not their job. They are here to make music and to sell records. That's already enough work and enough pain for them. Their own political point of vue should stay private, and seriously who cares? Is it to get attention? They'd better get attention by making the best music they can. Stick to their job. as we say in french "chacun doit rester ? sa place".

I think It's a question of mentallity, more than a political system one. France is an old country, things are dawn slow, it's loud, the population is getting old, everything is slow and old. It's not young and fast like America (especially NY). We just need a baby boom, and things may change. There is a lot of talent in France, but not enough ambition/trust for its youth. This is "structurel". We should change the mentality. A liberal policy would be welcome. Developp the turnover, Developp the private business, not the administration.

Yes and having lived in a real socialist country (Bulgaria before the Soviet Union collapsed) I find the views expressed by Den and Wat-Ever soo offensive that if any of the bands I listen to (no matter how much I like them) were to spew out such ignorance, I would never listen to their music again. To me this is like somebody telling a Jewish person fascism is "healthy" and we need a Nazi party.

*gling gling* cold war is over  :hihi:

ah yes, i forgot, artists "job" is to sell records....damn...i don't even know what to answer to this...

try to learn what is art, and why artists create.

for the nazi party thing, i don't answer to such a stupid thing, it's better.
i know a lot of people who lives in east estonia, finland, poland etc, and they all
are left liberal, they don't regret (of course) communism, but they just don't like
right conservative thinking, so it's total non sense to say people are ignorant
because they haven't the experience themselves.

so i suppose a lot of "guns n'roses fans" don't like david bowie, stones, U2, clash,
and all the artists who have the balls to say what they think. good.

anyway i already read the itw with dizzy who talked a bit about bush, and i was happy
to read his comments. i'm sure axl thinks the same.

I asked Tommy a bit about that and you can see the result here (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=129).



/jarmo

Since when was Finland socialist? ?::) And yes, many of the people in estonia, poland, and the other eastern bloc countries who were members of the party apparatus and lived well at the expense of everyone else, still do like socialism and communism. If you had your grandfather taken in by the police and tortured you might feel differently. If you had to grow up in a society of fear you probably won't think what I said was stupid. I can't believe how ungrateful some people can be. You have been blessed to have been born in a capitalist country. And France may not be as capitalist as the US, but it is capitalist nonetheless. In terms of mergers and acquisitions, it is right now the most "imperialist" (that's a term people like you would use, personally I think it's good when companies buy foreign companies if they do things more efficiently as a result) European country.


I don't like the clash, because I don't like their music.? I know they were communist at some point, but even they renounced the Soviet Union later on.

I am not aware of any of the other artists you mentioned making such ridiculous and offensive statements as you and Wat Ever. Bono in fact said he is sick of people criticizing the US and the he loves the US. He is hardly socialist. Rolling Stones are the definition of corporate band, not that I have a problem with that. Their tours make more money than a socialist country's entire GDP.

Before some of you get on this bandwagon on how socialist/liberal Axl would  be, I strongly suggest you read some of his interviews.  He's very pro-gun (look at my icon) and also very much an individualist.  I don't see him getting involved in all the socially and politcally motivated concerts that so many are.  I'm not saying that he doesn't care (by the way, when did liberals get the copyright to being the only onese concerned about social injustice, some of you need to research the democratic party in America aka the party of slavery and Jim crow laws.) but I would bet he's very libertarian -- live and let live mentality.  There's nothing worse than a rock star/ actor who feels they can change the world.  If I want political commentary, I'll goto someone knowledgable and educated on the subject, not someone who just regurgitates that Times or daily worker. ::)  Although don't you think that the name Chinese democracy is kind of against the only real communist nation left?  :P

we don't care about axl rose point of view.

the world realy need to get social. that's it. we're already very very decadent.

I also think we MUST all help Africa.

ah yes i forgot this one, it was a great one too, good job, as usual.

Africa's problems began when europeans started meddling in their affairs and it's still going on.  If we want to help them then we need to stop treating them like children and let then be the authors of their own destinies.  It's the "father knows best", imperalistic mindset that says we should "fix" Africa.  It's a failed approach.  The countries in Africa that have gotten off the drug of foreign aid have been doing alot better.

is that what we should have done with iraq ? :)

No, because it wasn't the Europeans this time. Whatever Europeans do is bad, but if America gets involved it's good. Thank you Mr. O'Reilly.

;D

That's a pretty good sum up of what has been said in here lately ! :hihi:

Different situations require different solutions. 

yes the petrol is in irak.  :hihi:

What can we do to help a country like Zimbabwe though?
If we send them money, Mugabe will embezzle it. That's not gonna help the people. In fact, it will hurt because he'll use it to establish even worse mechanisms of repression.
Mugabe is not going anywhere for a while. I think his quote after the last "election" was that he intends to rule until he was a 100.
He won't be voted out of office because he rigs the elections and intimidates dissent.
A popular revolt is even more impossible. People are terrified to go to a polling place and cast a vote against him, let alone to organize a revolutionary movement.
We can't negotiate with him or convince him to change because the man is in every way intransigent.

I would love to hear innovative new ideas about what we can do to help out the people of Zimbabwe ...

 :rofl:

U have no clue at all

Right. Move on.

Fascism is the opposite of Communism. Communism sets forth the lowest common demominator as the ruler, has no class distinctions (read: everyone's poor and stupid!), and seeks worldwide worker unity. Fascism supports the cosmic order, aristocracy, naturalism, and national identity.

Socialism is what happens when capitalism is hijacked to nullify social darwinism. Any idiot who can shuffle papers who would starve in the free market can get a government job in socialism. In the long term, socialism weakens society and makes the people complacent.

facism HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH communism or socialism. these two are on the economic/social field.

facism/democracy is how free your people are.

you can have capitalist facism
you can have communist facism

walk, you sound like nietzche and i hope you're one of the strong / beautiful people (like i am  ;D) cause if you aren't, that would be really funny  ;D

Nah, Nietzche wanted people favored for their natural merits, not their money grubbing ability.  : ok: Capitalism is much more generous than what nihilists have in mind. Of course, when (not if) natural resources get low, it's time to spill blood over them and "thin the herd." Society, over centuries, tends to swing from extreme liberalism, to moderate capitalism, to extreme fascism, and so forth. We're going to the liberalism now, but given gas prices, a swing to the right is in order.

I'm just too libertarian to be a hardcore fascist, so I'm conservative, whatever that means these days.

Racist jackoff?

If you want someone to compare me to, try Tolkien or CS Lewis, maybe. I see these guys as good role models.

I heard he's got weapons of mass destruction...

bah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The mask slips.

I guess you've never read any of Walks posts...

He fits that profile rather well.

I was gone for a few days, so I didn't get a chance to read the board and I somewhat missed this thread.

SLC, could you tell me how this adds anything to the conversation? How is this any better than the insults that you remind other people of? I do share some of your opinions but things like these add _nothing_, and will most certainly not drive your point of view forward.

When you say we I suppose you're talking about the US. I know you like provocation but sometimes you really post funny shit. I mean, the US are gonna "swing" to the right because of gas prices?? WTF man, and isn't Bush a right wing republican? Or did you think he was a leftist? Even if he was, what a right wing government could do about gas prices?

The funny thing is that I've read Walk's posts and I didn't even react to that ...? :nervous: I guess I'm becoming immunated or something ...? :nervous:

About as much as the people I was reffering to, ie Walk. Who had made, what I felt, several insulting racist views made on the board. I wrote this after reading them and still feel this way.

Why would anybody swing to the right, since the high gas prices came under right wing government? Driven by the war in Iraq? I just read an article that showed the highest increase of late credit card payments in history,  goes directly with the increase in gas prices. You think those late paying CC holders like Bush right now? They are being pinched financially because of his policies and they know it.

The right wing is making a killing off this...I mean the oil guys, uh...er....right wing...oil....the oil companies I mean...making record profits. It's all good dude, just have fun filling up your big American SUV!

Then I think the best way to reply then would be to argue his racist views in the thread (or the point in thread that they're in), not make witty 2-6 word replies that really don't add anything, and are only to stir shit up.

yeah you've ruined my nice socialism thread !!!! ;D ;D
i kid i kid.

Socialism.. in general, I think is a really nice thought. But since there will always.. and I mean _always_ be people who abuse the system, it'll never work (at least not in the foreseeable future). Sharing and working together for a common goal, helping the weak... they're all nice things. But to get the whole planet or a country fully behind that idea is pretty far from happening. There will always be people thinking they shouldn't be responsible for other people's lives.

I'm one of them.  I'm more than glad to lend a helping hand to an aquaintance or friend when they need it, but I'm only responsible for myself and my own actions.

I am not willing to bust my ass everyday if the guy who sits around and does nothing will make the same thing.

what about your friend ? would you help your best friend ? would you work for your mom ? let's say your mom just sits all day and watch porn, would you work and buy food for her ? i guess yes.

so, just look at the world as your biiiiiggg family.

;D

You must hate paying taxes then.....

Honestly, what motivation would that give me to work hard? I can be like the others and sit around all day and get paid like the guy that works for a living. Everyone needs to take some responsibility for themselves. We don't live in the perfect capitalistic society, but socialism is not the answer to our problems.

No, what could ever make you think that. :P

motivation ?
what pleasure to work ? and create something ? then pleasure of helping someone ?
you see, people always go " hey, i wanna be a bum and get government funds and not work  .... " but they're talking shit.
working is good.
and a normal person would rather work a get paid let say 100 $, than not work and get 50$ for nothing.

socialism can work because inactivity is hell. and human being will always find it more attractive to work and be part of society than just being helped.

you think all the americans collecting their welfare checks would rather be working? i don't.

and just because you're not working does not mean you are inactive.

well if you wanna compare yourself with everybody, even lower than you, we're not going anywhere.
i say, try to do your best. don't complain. don't compare. help when you can. and socialism works. we just have aim high.

Socialism seems like a nice idea on paper, but it really doesn't work.

Look at what happened to the Soviet Union.

you have to consider how all people will react under that system. and there are alot of lazy people out there (including myself).

at least you admit it :)

so you see in the end, it's not the system, it's the people: )

The only way socialism could work is under a fascist government. ?Case and point, China, Nazi Germany, USSR, N. Korea and Cuba just to name a few. ?There is no incentive to bust you balls and prosper when you know that paycheck is coming regardless of how hard and much you work - another reason why modern unions are not productive. ?With out the fear factor, people are going to leach off of the system because there is no hope for them to aspire to have made it. ?Socialism is touted by those who aren't succesful and powerful. ?Those that would be needed most to make it work (save a violent government over throw - then again the "elites" control the military and most of Europe has given up their personal right to firearms) won't oblige to such a system because it would not benefit them. ?Left wing politicians only do a lip service to socialist ideas because the poor and lazy have the same vote as the rich and hard working. ?Anyone in the middle class who has any aspirations to stay there or move up and has a basic understanding of history and economics won't support socialism. ?I've always found it amazing that leftist put so much stock in a man who was a complete failure in every other aspect of his life until he started writing (Karl Marx). ?How many times over do his ideas have to fail miserably before lefties give up on him? ?Haven't enough innocent people died in all the aftermath from socialist societies - they far out number the deaths caused by modern "American Imperialism".

...
wrong wrong and wrong
not that your system does not work. it sure *does*
but you are talking like that to appear strong and *cool*.

do you have a mom ? do you have a dad ? borthers ? sisters ?
do you do what your mom says ? when she says clean the table do you do it ?
when your mom says *give a candy to your sister* even if you bought them with YOUR hard earned money do you do it ?
*you can put the questions in past tense inf you want*

YES.

locally we are living socialism.
socialism is NATURAL. you were socialist when you were kid (if not, you were the fat ugly prick that everybody hated)
that is simple.

dont bring up exemple like china and nazi germany ... cause if you wanna base our reflection on real example, NO systems work. they're all rotten.
and in many ways the american system is as rotten as the chinese one.

i say socialism ,it's just a word,  give up all the pre judgements you have on history and world ecnomics.

i'm just saying that, people help each other locally ( a family, a neighboorhood, even you, yes even you)
and then we must extend that to a more global domain.

now that the world has gone global. i mean REALLY  global. we can't go on like that.

cause you sure are living in a dream if you think you gonna get P diddy's house and car. you won't. you're not going anywhere.

now that you've learned that the Stars you think you can reach are fake. we just gotta help the people that are left behind.

you would do it. you know. it's natural.
you're trapped in a house full of zombies with 2 old black ladies ... you FIND a weapon, do you get out of there by yourself or try to help the old ladies ?
cause from what i read, you're thinking * NAAAAGHH !! thse evvil black ladies just wanna leach off what i have and use it !! they're lazy !! they should have found this weapon before me  !? ahahah !!! i win !! *


just remember of your mother and daddy and family. how it was nice to help people :)


ahahaha let's all cry in joy !!! :)

* i think i ate too much monster munch :) *

no, it's both. and i believe that that system would encourage more people to be lazy.

there would be little motivation.

just like i believe people on welfare have no motivation to work hard to get off welfare. and why should they? they're getting something for free....who would want to give that up?

well not everybody thinks like you ....