Here Today... Gone To Hell!

You Bush supporters really got me laughing tonight. Bush's ratings are at an all time low, Republicans are coming forth to denounce the entire war, and the exit plan. At what point are you going to admit it was a blunder? Then I still read shit like this:

There already is an exit strategy.  As soon as the Iraqis can take over the main security role then the US will begin to withdraw the troops.  I'm not really sure what Ms. Sheehan doesn't understand about this. 

As somebody said in another thread.....STOOPID!


OK, I say put your money where you mouth is. I'm not kidding. I will bet that the troops will not be out by Thanksgiving.

Make me a wager.......

If I win...then you have the title "I am a moron because I support Bush" under your name for one month. If I lose I will put whatever you want under my name. I don't give a shit, because I know good and goddamn well we have no exit plan and we aren't leaving Iraq anytime soon.

So put up, or shut up.

I think this gulf coast catastrophe would be a perfect reason for Bush to pull the troops out of Iraq. By pulling them out now, he wouldn't look like a coward. They are needed here much more than they are needed over there.

He always looked like a coward...sorry.

are you that inoncent ? The more I read your posts the more I get the sense you don't see the implications ... Of course right now troops would be useful in the South... but I don't see them being more useful there than in Iraq ... Iraq a mess ... without the troops in would be a huge mess ... That's why I don't see them going home anytime soon. I don't even know how GW Bush can think of an exit plan with the Shiits and the Sunnits not getting along.

Don't even get started on that...half these guys wouldn't even know what you were talking about.

But don't you advocate withdrawal SLC?  Just curious.

I think Rain is right, no matter how much the war might have been stupid to enter into, we are now at a place where it would be stupid to withdrawal.  Sadam kept Iran and the shiites in check before, but now with his absence there is no way to balance out their power.

Please.

The Shiites and Sunnis have NEVER gotten along. ?Why does Bush think he's going to be some kind of miracle worker and get them to all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" atop Mt. Sinai? ?Come on.

Oh wait, that's right, GOD chose him to spread democracy throughout the world.  Even Georgie Porgie himself says so!

As for troops being more useful in Iraq than in the South, which is more important, security and rebuilding at home or security and rebuilding in a place our military choose to tore up, that we should never have gone into, half a world away?

The fact that anyone would have to give this any thought just shows what problems this country has with Bush in control.

Neither has the Palestinians and Israelis, nor the Indians and Pakistanians.  Whats your point?  We should just leave and let them slaughter the millions that supported the new government?  We should just pull another Vietnam and let them get slaughtered by the Shiite insurgents?  You may advocate such a position, but I will not.

No, I never advocated going in....

Because he doesn't understand the culture.....

I know we disagree about this whole thing, but I'm not following you on this.  I don't think the troops will be out by Thanksgiving, I doubt they'll be out of there for awhile.  What does that have to do with having an exit strategy or not?  The whole idea is that we keep them there as long as they need to be there, and clearly, they're going to be needed for awhile.

"There already is an exit strategy.? As soon as the Iraqis can take over the main security role then the US will begin to withdraw the troops.? I'm not really sure what Ms. Sheehan doesn't understand about this.? "

This bad mouthing a soldiers Mom using broad brush strokes is what rubs me the wrong way.

This poster says that we have an exit strategy and states this (above) as the plan. Then insults a woman who lost her son in the war, calling her naive for not understanding this. So I say...put up or shut up. I'm tired of this souless banter towards this woman with cheap shots (that they would never say in person I'm sure).

If he is so right, and so sure, then back it up. Any toad can sit behind a computer, not go to fight himself, and then criticize a woman who lost her son and wants accoutability. Then chalk it up to "quit your complaining" or "there are other issues in the world move on". Then turn around, and claim there is an exit plan, when Bush has never layed one out. I guess this poster has some secret info that only the war-mongers and thiefs in the white house know.

You have made that clear, and I think you were obviously correct in your position prior to the war.  However, circumstances have changed.  We are no longer debating whether the war was justified, but whether we should withdrawal.  Hence the "withdrawal wager thread."

I am curious as to your position, and others that opposed the war prior to the invasion.  Should we withdraw?  I know its a difficult question, but I am interested in your thoughts.

ok ill try and spell it out there..... its not so much that we should withdraw as you noticed it has not been said that we should leave......this is more to illustrate that there is no exit plans..... as teh quote SLC has been showing says that it will be as soon as "x" happens..........like it or not when your dealing with the general public your dealing with children.... chldren are never satified with.... we'll be there when we get there... we want solid time frames. we want to know that in 9 months "y" amount of Iraqi military divsions will be established, and able to work without US back up. that "Z" police personel will be trainned and ready, adn are providing security within communities. and that in 12 months soilders are going to start withdrawing...... and over 36 months all US precene say for maybe a few military trainning staff will be out of country....thats for the military assests.


IMO for a withdraw to happen this year the orders need to be drawn up now and they are not.... with those orders there will be about a 6 month window of current troop lvl's before we see a drop in presence.

at the earliest based on current growth rates of teh Iraqi national guard/police forces..... you will nedd at least another full 12 months before teh withdrawal can happen properly, and it will be a staged withdrawl taking 2-4 yrs so dont be surprised if we are still in Iraq come augest 2010........though we may be in Iran then too...... at least were in a different country what?

Thanks for the response.  I agree that Bush's exit strategy is not really a clear exit strategy.  However, I am not sure if giving a date for withdrawal would be a good thing.  I think it is almost a catch 22 situation.  I agree though, they must start showing progress in training more troops and police in Iraq.  I want to get out of there as soon as possible, but I think getting out of there prematurely would be an utter mistake for the United States.  However, changes need to be made so that we can start to see progress.  Fire Rumsfeld or whatever it takes.  Right now the job is not getting done.

IMO its teh one thing that the right and left will agree on... get out as soon as you can..... but dont be stupid about it... do it right now that were are there... we dont want to have to go back in.. in 10 years casue everything thing is still fucked.....

Oh Christ. (Not being sarcastic)

Either option equals failure.

How many more American lives do you want to sacrifice to continue to nation build in Iraq? Right now we need thousands and thousand of troops in New Orleans(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_43). Right now...total anarchy. Car jackings on dry land, rape, beatings, lootings. It is out of control. How many of OUR PEOPLE need protection, food, shelter, government, law and order only 14 hours away from me?

It has been three days and no command center has been set up, and people are dying in the street like dogs, and the mayor has literaly sent out an SOS to the government.

But we don't have enough troops (yet), and money (that has already been cut, and Bush also proposed to cut another 42 million  by next year prior to this tragedy) is becoming a reality in America (deficit rears it's ugly head).

Knowing what we know now...that there are no WMD, completely squelches the moronic "We will send the wrong message to the terrorists if we leave Iraq." Iraq never was a terrorist threat, nor had weapons. There is no message "to send" if it wasn't a terrorist state to begin with. Our original claim for invasion was never "we need to nation build", never. No message will be "sent"; this is propaganda. The terrorists want us to stay.... as no harm will come to them, only dead USA soldiers, and begining of a economic tailspin here.

 Look at what has happened since we invaded. 2000 thousand DEAD, thousands more WOUNDED. One hundred thousand dead in Iraq. Gas prices steady increase from oil speculation (obviously middle east war related). HUGE BILLION DOLLAR deficit, each American owes 145k for this debt on paper. Complete failure of trust in the international community now equaling the boy who cried wolf syndrome(if there was a real problem later).

All of these equal success for the terrorists. Our economy is on the edge, gas prices are about to hit 4 dollars per gallon by the end of the week. Americans are being slaughtered everyday in Iraq, and insurgents are bombing away in London and other parts of the world STILL. By us being in Iraq....the terrorists are winning on many different scales. Right now, they are about to attack us economically, and we are all going to feel it. Leaving troops in Iraq was always the plan I'm afraid. We have permanent military bases set up there. This was ALWAYS the plan. It is a strategic setting in the middle east (an area we've had our eye on and loved since post WWII) and untapped oil. Sure, troops will eventually "come home", but there will always be our presence there. This will only continue to piss of the middle east.

If you don't think the terrorists are winning, just go fill your gas tank up this week and listen to Bush's speech where he asked Americans to "save on gas" and warns looters in his out of control frenzied city that was once New Orleans.

We should, pull out.

That being said, I never started this thread to say if we should or should not. I started because a poster LIED and claimed the exit strategy (which W is always critiqued for, since he never offers one to Joe Public) was so apparent and Sheehan should just understand this and go away.

So would you have us withdrawl with our tail between our legs and let everything go to hell in Iraq? Let those who died fighting die in vain?

They already did die in vain.

Tail between legs huh?

At what point does pride and being stubborn get swept aside by reality?

SLC, finally the post I have been waiting for. ;D  Very eloquently put.  I agree with a great majority of your post.  However, whether or not it was a terrorist haven before hand, it is now and will be if we leave.  It will simply be another Afghanistan.  I am not sure we can let that happened.  In addition, I think if we leave we can't be suprised if there are a million people slaughtered, as happened in Vietnam when we left.  I agree the situation with our economy has gotten out of control, thus we should have received more help before we went in.  I think these are the key things that must be weighed.  I sure wish we could get more help from the rest of the world, an unstable Iraq isn't in anyone's interest.

Thanks.

There are thousands being slaughtered in Sudan in a government backed ethnic cleansing as I type this. Nobody even reports that here in our media. Not even a blink of the eye towards that.

See what I mean?

Why is that not worth stopping? Why aren't we sending out troops in to stop that? Surely their government would be no challenge to our military force. What about those people? Why is Iraq so much more important? And when are the lives of people at home (financially and physically) going to be more important than those abroad?

This is a rhetorical question of course, meant to make you think (before sandman and popmetal jump on that one).

We created a mess in Iraq that we can not control. If we leave now, or in ten years...it will still be a mess. How many more American lives are worth stubborn pride (an unwillingmess to admit being wrong) at this point? Isn't it time our leaders drop the rhetoric?

That's fucking easy to tell people that were against the war in the first place "move on, we're having a totaly different debate here ... are you for a withdrawal or not ?" ! They were not in charge, they were not listened to and now it's as if they are the ones to draw an exit plan.
It's easy for me to say that the troops can't withdraw right now that it will be a mess. I'm french, our troops are not engaged in there. And I have to say that what's happening right now w/ the sunnits and the shiits was actually very predictable.