Here Today... Gone To Hell!

This is a notion thats been perpetuated all over these boards, primarily by huge Axl fans.  Its often brought up in threads, I ask the person alledging it to explain and perhaps provide some evidence, and they either bring up bogus, trivial comments that are far from lies (or even simple contradictions) or dodge the post altogether.  So I ask those of you who subscribe to this opinion - that Slash is a liar and is constantly lying in interviews - could you please share some of his lies?  I mean, there must be tons of them to earn such a reputation among such an objective group of fans.

By the way, I post this in this section 1.) Because thats where most of those who hold this opinion post and 2.) Nearly all of these so-called lies assumedly pertain to GNR or his time in GNR.  I think its only fair that if hes constantly referred to as a liar on this very forum, some of you back it up with something of substance.

It's not all black or all white. Axl "in the next few months" isn't better you know.

 ::) ? : ok:

so you think this is an Anti-Slash board, right?

i can`t think of one person here stating that slash is a liar and lies in every interview he gives. aynway noone can prove if he`s a liar or not
( i guess you`re talking about the gnr split etc.)

i am definitely one of the persons here on axls side, but i have a lot of respect for slash.

Those are just from one poster (who shall remain nameless  :hihi:), Ive seen plenty of folks say it over the past 2 or 3 years Ive visited this site, and I see it at other GNR boards.  I didnt this was necessarily an "Anti-Slash" board, did I?  I said this notion has been perpetuated on this board for awhile now. 

I generally think the reason Slash tells different stories about the breakup is because there is not just one reason the band broke up.
there were most likely several reasons he quit the band. and if he was gonna tell all of them in one interview it would take him a few hours.
so he tells a couple of reasons in each interview where that question is asked, and thats the reason he might not say the same thing in all the interviews.

at least, that's what I believe.

Booker FLoyd your right that the one callin him a liar r the Axl haters.  They are so blind to Axl's faults and constant lies that they blame slash for it.  I respect the man completely, and he will always be the best guitarist GNR ever had, no matter who else Axl gets.   I doubt his stroy has chnaged that much, all that he has ever said is that he wanted to play guitar and the lack of anyhting from the band in 96 jus left him with a choice of sitting around doing nothing or play guitar somewhere else.  Maybe he's changed his story about Axl because over the years he's bound to have gotten more furious with the guy.  But that aside, all of you slash haters arent real GNR fans, u can be Axl Rose fans, but guess what, he wasnt Guns N Roses, he was the lead singer.  The rest f the band played jus as an important role as he did in the music and the image they conveyed.  So either shut up about how u hate slash or go proove me wrong.

Slash, IMO, is the most reasonable of the 3 .(Slash, Axl, Duff).

I am a huge fan of GN'R, and it never ceases to amaze me those people that bash Slash with such vehement bitterness. I ask you, how can you in all fairness, claim to be a Guns N Roses fan and hate Slash? Sure criticise him if and when you feel its warranted, (afterall, no ones perfect) but some of the opinions on here go far beyond critisism.

Is he a liar? Of course not. He's one of the most hardworking and well respected ( not to mention well liked) guitarists in the industry.

IMO, hes one of the great rock stars.

i don't think slash is a liar.

he is tho more exposed for critics and acusations of all kinds, both positive and negative, simply because he's in the media ALOT, at least compared to captain Axl.

what it basically boils down to is us bitter fans who can't stand the fact that gn'r isn't together anymore so we sink to the low level of taking sides.

i could list tons of reasons why axl is a liar and i could do the same about slash....

they are regular fuckers just like you and me...

i wonder how many times i have said nice things about an ex-girlfriend and how many times i slammed one like yeasterdays cold leftovers... it all depends on the situation and it doesn't make me a fucking liar just because i have both positive things and negative shit to say about 'em... ;D

i'm a guitarist and slash is my God, i think axl is more interesting tho, just because i feel kind of sorry for him because of his obvious struggles in life and his brilliant one of a kind way dealing with it through his lyrics and music.

I totally disagree. Slash and Axl had the two biggest egos in guns n roses. Duff and izzy were always the voice of reason.

I've always believed Duff to be the "good guy" of the three.
He usually seems sympathetic towards Axl, but definitely has some sour grapes. Which is how I see it all... Axl DID have his good points which is why Duff stuck with him... but overall Axl was just too much to work with.

It's not that difficult to answer your question.

Axl called Slash a liar in a press release. Axl has a reputation of being somebody who speaks his mind and therefore people assume he's telling the truth.

3) Slash has lied about nearly everything and anything to nearly everyone and anyone. It's who he is. It's what he does.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=82





/jarmo

I can agree in part there Dave, I think I was alluding to the fact that IMO, Duff and Axl are more prone to embelishment.

Izzy of course, rules them all  :hihi:

Jarmo I can't help feeling you're always leaning to the Axl side :-\, I know you own 4 VR albums and you've seen them 5 times but still, is there any truth to this or is it just me ???

I don't lean to any sides. It's just because VR are doing things that I can actually comment on that people think I'm taking sides.

I could spend days whining about how Axl's taking too long to put out an album (because I'd like to hear it). But I know that won't help, so I don't bother (unlike many others who keep whining year after year).




/jarmo

Ask Josh Todd if Slash is a liar. Didnt Josh claiim that Slash told him he was going to get the gig then Slash claimed Josh was never being considered or something to that effect?

And what does this have to do with the question I asked Jarmo? ::). I'm not trying to defend slash here...so I can't see how that response applies to my question?

Im quite aware of that comment, and I essentially agree with your post. ?I also think Hilel Slovaks assessment is fairly accurate. ?However, that wasnt my question. ?My question is can these detractors back up the allegation? ?

For example, Dave is obviously the biggest proponent of this theory (see my examples), and you would assume that this thread would be a teriffic opportunity for him to list all of Slashs countless lies...and this is what we get?:


Not to my knowledge, but you tell us. ?Youre the one who thinks hes lying, shouldnt you have something to base that on? ?Let us know what that is. ?:yes:

he said he didn't watch the vma's, then I think Adler set his foot in it by telling people how he called Slash asking if he saw it, and Slash said yes to him.

Hence, Slash is a liar.
  ;D

not really, what Ive heard is that Slash wanted to work with Josh. but Josh was still a bit too fond of partying and drugs, and Slash said if he was gonna play with them he had to get clean. which he didn't have any interest in doing at the time.

but Booker is right, let's see if anyone can produce a list of Slash's lies.

and to Woody, he probably said that because he didn't want to comment on it. Ive done things similar to that a lot of times, and I don't consider myself a liar...DO YOU!? hehe

Everybody lies now and then, does that make them a liar.  I wouldn't classify either Axl or Slash as liars.  I definitely trust Slash's word more than Axl's, but I don't think either are liars.  I really don't get a very anit-Slash vibe from this board.  In fact there is far more Axl bashing here than Slash bashing.

Well, I haven't seen a list of Slash's lies yet, here.  What are you talking about?  Lies about what?  His time in GnR? The reason he left?  Huh? Everything I've read about his reason for leaving GnR is pretty much the same.  I've also never heard him bash Axl at all, in public.  He actually defends him, at times.  Axl's just bitter because everybody left.   

You can't just call someone a liar without hard evidence.  Don't forget you cannot believe everything you read, you're a bit naive if you think what the press print is 100% accurate lol.  That principal works for Axl aswell.

I believe what i hear, especially when it comes to GN'R related stuff.  And for me whenever i have heard Slash interviews he's fairly consistant.  If he is asked a question then he answers it.  He must get fed up of being asked the same questions 200 x times. And as far as i am concerned he is consistant.  Of course he's going to answer somedays when he's a bit pissed off,  as we all do or would if you have to keep explaining a situation. 

I have never heard him give answers that made me think what a liar. Because for evertime i have heard him have a go at Axl, i have heard equal or more amounts of praise.

i just dont think some ppl can handle the fact slash is doing what he loves doing the most, making music, while giving his fans something to be happy about

must be jealously or sumtin

Once an egotistical fuckhead, always an egotistical fuckhead.  >:(

as if slash hasn't got an ego wtf??? :hihi:

If I break up with my gf and someones askes the reasons, I'm sure we both give different answers.

I think it's just Slash giving his side of the stroy and Axl his.

So I guess nobody is willing to back the claim up?

I don' t think Slash is a liar. He just seems to vary his stories from time to time.? :hihi:

For example, back then when Izzy was still in the band, I guess Slash was perfectly happy with him as a rhythm guitarist. When Izzy left and Gilby came, Slash said something along the lines of that he could never really play well together with Izzy anyway, so Gilby' s the perfect solution.
Now that he is in VR, I remember him saying the same thing, that he could never really play together with Izzy or Gilby, but with Kushner everything' s great.? ;)

You mean this one?

Slash on TSI
"I love recording like this, means Slash. During Appetite..., Lies and Use Your... I had to put up with Izzy the whole time. I never liked playing with him. It was wonderful to escape him on this record. It sounds tighter and so much cooler than anything we've done before. I always got irritated over Izzy's way of playing. It didn't sound right. Before "Spaghetti", we erased his guitar and Gilby put on a new one. It sounded perfect!"


hem.passagen.se/snoqalf/art-199311-OK.html


I wouldn't call it a lie but I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this bit. :(

Yeah, that' s what I meant. It also made me sad to read that  :(

Well that quote about Izzy is over 10 years old, maybe he still thinks that and maybe he doesn't.  Time does help you see things differently, i'm sure if we could all look up everything we have ever said to people, we would find some contradictions. It's just the way things work lol.

But even then his quote on Izzy, is of an opinion he had over 10 years ago and not a lie is it?

No, it' s not a lie and I didn' t say it was one. My point was just that now that he has Dave Kushner he says he also could never play with Gilby, of whom he was so fond back then.
I think he just says what' s the most appropriate in his situation (who wouldn't). I mean, what would Kushner think if Slash would say something like "Playing with Dave is really horrible. With Izzy/Gilby it was much better"  :hihi:

Slash was probably bitter about Izzy quitting the band when he said that.

As to Slash changing his story, give the guy a break. It's a miracle the guy can remember anything from back then

Yeah, you really can't put too much stock in stuff guys like Slash said back in the day.  He was fucked up constantly.  I know I say plenty of stupid shit when I'm fucked up.

I`m sure you wouldn`t get the whole truth from either of them.

I was reading old interviews to find some quotes for another thread, but here's something he lied about.

This is what we were told in 2001:

"I came down with walking pneumonia," he said Thursday (May 31). "For the first time in my career, I reached a point where I was working so hard, and I started getting sick, but I didn't pay attention to it. Finally, I was feeling really crappy so I went to a doctor in Pittsburgh to see what was up, and he said, 'You're really sick.' They wouldn't let me leave the hospital for five days".

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=379

This is what we were told in 2004:

Or when he collapsed with alcohol poisoning before a show in Pittsburgh in 2000, which landed him in hospital for four weeks.

Gunning It (Velvet Revolver)
The Times, June 5th 2004 (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=119)


There you go, just to point out that even Slash have lied.  :hihi:


/jarmo

To address the last point first, the point of this thread wasnt necessarily to argue that Slash has never been dishonest in his life, but that hes not the so-called "liar" that some people would like to believe he is. ?And lets not confuse the issue, when Dave and others repeatedly call Slash a liar, theyre certainly not referring to this particular instance when he wasnt completely honest about serious health issues (which he did later discuss honestly). ?I believe theyve been calling him a liar for years, before this situation ever really came to light.

And while Slash wasnt honest about the situation at first, lets again remember that serious health problems were the issue and often times are kept personal at the expense of the truth. ?So is it techinally a lie? ?I suppose so (although Im not completely sure that he didnt have pneumonia in addition to the alcohol poisoning), but the gist was accurate: the tour was cut short due to medical problems. ?It just turns out the problems were even more serious than he initially stated...If that warrants the "liar" tag, then I suppose comments from other members could do the same. ?

Now you come across as somebody who's trying to defend his actions. Oh wait, that sounds familiar.  :hihi:






/jarmo

And similarly, you come across as somebody whos trying to dodge the points that were made.  But what else is new?

So in short, you started this thread just to accuse "Dave and others" of not giving the proof?

What a thread?!and What an objective!

I thought you wanted to look into the matter objectively, to be more objective than "such an objective group of fans".

Actually Jarmo, now that I think about it, it does sound kind of familiar....


http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=15389.msg273383#msg273383

Slash a liar? I think he's too busy writing hit records, touring the world, having kids, playing star-studded events, making videos, doing interviews, etc...., etc.... to sit around making up lies.

I started this thread to find exactly what this "Slash is a liar" myth is actually based on.  Its been said often on here that all Slash does is lie, and I would have expected this thread to contain more examples of that if that were te case.  You figure with all of interviews over the years in which Slash has done nothing but lie, there would be tons of evidence to present.  But instead the most legit lie so far is Slash downgrading the life-threatening medical problems that cut his tour short.  So is that "Slash the liar?"  Is that it? 

Points?

I'm not gonna arge about Slash lying or not lying.

You wanted examples of when he has lied, I posted one and then I'm supposed to discuss it with you because you don't think he actually lied (just with held information)?

No thanks.


How does that sound familiar?

We don't know exactly what happend between Axl and Slash in 1994/95. I posted a possible scenario of what could've happened and if it did happen that way, then how would that make Axl a liar.


You on the other hand go on and start telling us how Slash really didn't lie because he might've had pneumonia too. Even after he admitted he had a serious drinking problem and that was the reason for the cancellation.

Now, if Axl said "Sure, I lied about Slash" and I still posted that, then you might have a point.



So I'm not gonna argue about whether or not Slash lied. I've seen the press release from 2001 and then his quotes from 2004. To me that's lying, maybe it's not for you.




/jarmo

Yeah, you created an entire scenario to defend what Axl "possibly" did.  I didnt go to that extent, granted, so maybe theyre not that similar.  What I did do is look at the context of the supposed lie you provided, as well as the context of this thread.  I determined that the example you gave doesnt really do much for the "Slash the liar" myth, and explained why.  I also asked what I think is a pretty valid question: are you positive that Slash didnt just withhold information?  Is it impossible that he had penumonia and alcohol poisoning?  Im not arguing that he did, and Im not arguing that his statement wasnt somewhat dishonest, Im saying that sometimes theres more to a story than whats in a news report (something I think youve agreed with before), and Id like to know that kind of thing before i conclusively call something a flat-out lie.

That's just too bad. He shouldn't have said that.  :-\

Just like you did by saying "what if he withheld information".






I agree with that.

But I still think it's a lie. Because you're not telling the whole truth......


But everybody does that, so it's just not Slash. ;)




/jarmo

In reading through all of this, I think Booker Floyd has made his point, here, and made some very good points, and I think he's right.  As far as the pneumonia/alcohol poisoning situation,  he probably did have pneumonia, as well.  Even if he didn't, why would he want to admit to having alcohol poisoning?  Would anyone? How many times do you hear about celebrities being hospitalized for "exhaustion" - what the fuck is that?  (think Eminem).  I just don't know where this "lieing" thing comes from except insinuated once by Axl, and like I said, Axl's bitter.  And I haven't heard Slash tell different versions of his reasons for leaving.  It's been pretty much the same, from what I've read and heard - the band was going in a direction he didn't like and Axl was not being easy to work with.       

I guess I have made my point, since the usual suspects have chosen not to join the discussion.  Jarmo, who really isnt one of the people I was talking about initially, gave what could tecnically be considered a lie, but it doesnt speak to what this threads really about, and thats the "Slash the liar" myth.  We all know that those who constantly call Slash a liar arent basing that assertion on that particular excuse....and if it was, then my point has still been made - the myth is based on next-to-nothing.  Its based, like Jarmo said, on Axls own accusation.  And in true lemming fashion, certain people have adopted it themselves without basing it on anything substantial. 

I just felt that it was time we put an end to this myth.  A certain few will continue to perpuate it, but most of the rational people on here will have seen this thread and know that its nonsense (if they didnt already) and that those who keep clinging to the myth are, ironically, liars.  The same goes for "Slash the shit-talker."  Yes, Slash has given his opinions on what GNR has become and Axl himself, but hardly anything that I would call "shit-talking," or even inaccurate.  Not to mention all of the praise alongside the criticism.  The key difference between Slashs criticisms of Axl and Axls of the ex-members, is that Slash hasnt told anyone to "suck his dick," or called them a liar, to my knowledge.  And when reminded of this, some say "Axls just giving his honest opinion..."  Fine.  Understood.  But so is Slash, and in a relatively diplomatic fashion.  Like I mentioned in another thread, with all of Slashs success lately, it would be easier than ever for him to trash Axl or rub it in, and hes not.  He still just gives his own opinion, which is still quite meek.

Maybe he lied maybe he hasn't ... I'm damn too lazy to check through the years the way the events described by Slash change from time to time ! Just like Jarmo I won't call it lies ... it's the way human memory works ...

For the example Jarmo has given, well it's rather a matter of private life, I won't throw him a stone because he lied about that !

Very well said Booker Floyd!! 

Booker was slash lying when he said he knew for a fact that Axl only had a few songs of vocals done for CD? How is that not a lie? And booker when have been over this before, what is the point of doing it again? You are like a broken record. We all know slash is a liar and have proven it before, yet months pass then you claim oh slash isnt a liar, then it starts over again.? You can lie to yourself all you want but deep down inside you know slash is a liar and always changes his story.

Just like the whole horn and back up singer thing. Slash said it was his idea yet years later blames Axl for it. In another thread 5 or 6 people remember reading the same article I got that from yet you still denied it just because the article is not posted online. Big deal, it was said and it was true and its more proof that slash lies and that he always changes his story.

Also you crack me up and claim oh the people that say slash is a liar are not posting in this thread, how would we when its in the VR section of most of us rarely visit this forum? I got here via a link for the gnr board.

The fact is everytime someone has showed you a time where slash has lied, its either oh that is not really a lie, or slash was misquoted, or he was too wasted back them to get rememer everything how it really happened etc etc.

You lose again booker. good day. Stop making excuses for things you know are true.

Dont know...I dont know how Slash claimed to have known that, or how many vocals Axl has laid down.? Ill put it this way: theres more to support Slashs comment than disprove it.?


Statements such as this one prove that youre actually far more prone to dishonesty than Slash.


Another example of your lying.? Find one instance in which I deny anything pertaining to that issue.


Well thats one reason I initially posted this on the GNR board...

...But perhaps you should have deleted your post  (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=22251.msg384055#msg384055) on the very first page from 6 days ago before trying that angle.? :hihi: :hihi:? Maybe I should re-title this thread "Dave The Liar?"? : ok:



Actually, the fact is that everytime youre asked to list these so-called lies and back them up, you refer to these imaginary posts from "months ago."? Just go ahead and list them, theres no better thread than this one.
?

 :hihi:

Another transparent self-defense mechanism.? Its only purpose is to convince yourself.? :no:

Booker how is there more to support Slashs comment than disprove it? Slash lied about that plain an simple. Brian May said a few years ago Axl had 2 or so albums done with vocals.? Over the last few years people have said Axl has the vocals 90% done yet slash claiming Axl only has a few songs with vocals on it is MORE? You just keep showing your true colors and you cant admit that slash LIED about knowing this for a fact.?


Your 2nd quote is your M.O. you cant even deny it but you just did and keep proving my point. Thanks.

Booker how am I lying about the horn thing? I am really curious about this one. Like I said just becaues the article is not posted online anymore does not mean anything. When it was brought up last time a bunch of people backed me up and said they remember reading slash say that. So again you lose. Even falcon knows its true but he won't admit it since I cant find the quote again.

And your dave the liar comment again just proves what I keep saying. When you are proven wrong you take the route of personal shots. Again its your M.O.

We have given you points where Slash has lied and changed his story. So booker just give it up. Slash is a liar its that simple.

Like I said anytime slash (or duff) are caugh lying they just cry they were misqouted but its funny they keep telling the lies until they are caught yet its funny that they were misquoted that many times in that same lie. So in a sense they are again lying that they were misquoted which even further proves how slash (and duff) are liars.

And booker I have one thing on my side that you don't and its the truth. You can claim I am  trying to convince myself all  you want but we have proven slash lies. What you are doing is called transference. Look it up.

This thread has gotten friggin' ridiculous.  Has Slash lied during his life?  Of course he fucking has...everybody does.  Does that make him a liar?  No, telling a couple lies doesn't make you a liar.  Even the all-powerful and all-knowing Axl Rose has told his fair share of lies.

Slash lies to try and put Axl in a bad light and make him look like the bad guy or an asshole. Just look at the recent law suit and their comments about Axl. The pathetic thiing is, they were proven wrong and it was just a small error yet they still have not withdrawn the lawsuit.

Are you serious? You are really going to stick with that position because frankly it undermines your credibility. 

Yeah, and Axl lies when he tells us there's gonna be an album.

Wow, it gets lamer & lamer here everytime i check this thread. It's amazing there's actually people in the world getting worked up cause some guitar player in some band have slightly differing statements on his health issues like a decade ago. Or that he said some cd only has a couple of finished songs or something like a few years ago. I must be the worst person on earth then, cause this morning i told my wife that i didn't buy a soda when i went to get the morning paper, but i actually did! i guess in the eyes of jarmo & slowdave i'm a habitual liar. I guess they also believe axl found out about that european tour online after a GNR tour was booked without his knowledge. That ones a classic! :hihi:

See that is always the slash fans rebuttal for Axl lies. That is not a lie but again its typic slash fan bullshit which just makes most people shake their heads.

So is it your position that there will be no album? There has never been a release date for this project. He has made comments which can be construed as wishful thinking but they were not outright deceptions.

Prove that Axl knew about the tour. If you cant then how do you know Axl was lying? You really think if Axl was going to lie about it, he would not have came up with a better excuse?

I have no idea if he has lied or not. I don't know what happened when the band split; these seem to be the pivotal issues on which the two sides have continuously spared. Slash's account of the breakup has changed but I feel at times he doesn't remember or is being purposely simplisitic because of who is interviewing him. It is annoying that he can in one breath suggest that everyone contributed to the break up and in another blame it entirely on Axl; but being human, it is obvious he hasn't found peace with the band's breakup. This is why I believe the possibility of a reunion will always be in the cards.

No, but there was a tour called the "Chinese Democracy World Tour".  There was also millions of dollars pumped into this project of Axl's.  I think that's more than wishful thinking.

Axl never said the album was going to follow directly after or during the tour. He said that they would back in the studio and finish up the album AFTERward.

Well, the obvious is that theres no album. ?Doug Goldstein was quoted 5 years ago saying the album was what, 99% finished musically and 80% vocally. ?I think its safe to say that wasnt true. ?As for the album thats supposedly coming out, I dont know how many vocals are finished, but it certainly wasnt ready for release 10 or so months ago when Slash made those comments, and surprise...its not ready now. ?I think its presumptuous of Slash to state he knows something like that "for a fact," but I dont know who hes talked to to make such a statement.



You claim that Ive denied that Slash has said whatever you claim hes said. ?Ive never done that, and I challenge you to find where I have.


All Ive ever asked for is the quote. ?

The "you lose thing" is looking pretty desperate, by the way.


 ???

How did you not lie? ?You claimed that you only found out about this thread from a post in the GNR section (which was posted today), when you actually posted in this thread nearly a week ago... :hihi: ?That looks a lot like a lie to me, and by the standards youre holding Slash to, I cant help but think you would agree. ?Its pretty funny that in your attempts to convince us of what a liar Slash is, you expose your own pretty spectacular display of dishonesty. ?But maybe you can better explain... : ok:


Where have you given these points? ?


 :confused:

So are you going to keep stalling?

Axl also said the album wont be out anytime soon at the VMAs a few  years ago.

Ummm, if you believe there is no album, there is no middle ground for argument. I believe there is enough evidence from the players and managment that the album does exist, in some completed or nearly completed form.

There is no evidence however that slash knew what he was talking about; he is most definately out of the loop and may be receiving second or third hand information about what is going on. Don't assume that someone not connected to the project has any answers. there is a huge difference between not ready for release and 'only three songs with vocals.'

Booker you do know the band scrapped most of the first album right? Dizzy even said in an interview a few ?months ago most of the songs are newer ones that were not on the first idea for the album or something to that effect.

OH so you like falcon also know slash said it was HIS idea for the horn section yet still ask me to find the quote. That just again shows what kind of person you are and shows you that slash is a liar.

And I m not looking desperate at all since you know what I said is right, the fact is ?you just wont admit you also remember slash saying that. You know how bad that makes ?you look right? That ?you have always said oh find the quote etc etc when in fact you also read the same article. Wow booker just Wow.

As for me lying, this thread was sent to my IM last week thus that is how I found out about. The link was again posted and brought to my attention the thread was still going. Also what about the other people that did not know about this thread until it was linked on the other page? OH yeah that is such a lie ?booker.
Again you really need to learn what ?a lie is.

You are looking really bad in this thead. You should really just quit before ?you lose the tiny bit of cred you have left.

As for me staling, I and Jarmo have given you prove that slash has lied, and even you know he has by knowing slash said it was his idea for the horn section.

So booker, I really dont see why you are claiming I am staling. You have gotten your prove, so deal with it.

How is my position anything less than logical?

Fact: I dont know how many vocals are actually finished for Axls upcoming album. ?

Fact: I dont know how Slash claims to know about the subject.

So considering these facts, I just cant say whether or not Slash is lying, can I? ?I know some have claimed Axls laid down a lot of vocals, I know others have claimed the opposite. ?And Im sure plenty of vocals have been laid down over the past 12 years or so...but when it comes to the actual album thats supposedly coming out, who really knows how many vocals were completely finished when Slash made that comment, which I believe was nearly a year ago.

See, I really, honestly did not want to turn this into an anti-Axl thread, or "Axl the liar," but lets say I pointed to an interview in which Axl said that everybody loved and supported "My World," and point to another in which Izzy claims to not have even known that it was going on the album, would Axl be a "liar?" ?Its not about labeling Axl a liar, because I dont and never have. ?But its about seeing if the ones who call Slash a liar are willing to hold Axl to the same kind of standard. ?Of course I know the answer to that, but Id like to bring attention to the hypocrisy.

Here is what Axl said at the 2002 VMAs while being interviews by Kurt Loder.


KL: Is Chinese Democracy going to come out? ?Are we going to see it soon?

AR: Umm, you'll see it. ?I don't know if soon is the word. ?But it'll come out, and then we'll go back and do some more recording, and then start an American leg of the tour, and see how it goes from there.


I have it on tape, so that is 100% accurately quoted. ?So Axl's wording was very ambiguous on whether he meant that the album may come out before or during the tour. ?Either way, it wasn't (as you claim) clear that he meant they wouldn't finish it until afterwards.

Yes you can when everyone else that has heard the album said axl is just touching up some vocals. Tommy, Richard, and Dizzy all said Axl sounds great on the album and the songs are amazing. Thus meaning he has more than a few vocals done.
So again slash lied which ever way you look at it.

As for your quote, you could look at it this way, that izzy was lying that he did not know it was going to be on the album.
Oh but of coarse you dont think in that way do you, it always has to be axl.

Also, they could all love the song and still not know it was going to be used for the album.
Again you dont think in this way, I am not sure why but its  your fault not ours.

Yeah but dude what I think Booker is saying is that (as you said) axl is "touching up vocals".? If he is touching up vocals, then they aren't complete.? Complete is when you're done, as in finished, as in ready to do the next song.

Hell I don't know how Slash knows that or if Slash knows that, but you can't say he's lying because there isn't any proof that he isn't telling the truth.? If anything, the fact that the chaps you mentioned (in Axl's band) saying that Axl is "touching uo vocals" is more evidence that he doesn't have the vocal tracks complete.

Wrong. Slash said that axl only has vocals for  a few songs meaning only a few songs have vocals on them. Slash did not say Axl is still working on vocals like he could have.  Slash lied plan and simple.  As for axl touching up vocals, they are there but slash was claiming axl had none save a few songs.

Huge difference.

How does that contradict what I posted? He never said it was going to come out during or immediately after the tour. Ero, how can you or anyone else claim he lied about when the album was coming out. He never said when it was coming out.

EDIT: ok I see the hair you are splitting. I responded to whether or not Axl lied about when the album was coming out. Clearly if you read that quotation, Axl makes no promises about when it is going to drop. None.

I meant the obvious is that theres no tangible album, no released material. ?Of course it exists in some form, I wouldnt argue otherwise. ?To what extent is something that I dont know. ?Is it possible that at the time nearly all of the music was done, and only a few vocals were laid down? ?Im not arguing that it is, Im simply stating a fact: that none of us know enough to determine how true false the comment is, much less whether its a lie or not.


 :hihi:

So you actually read and posted in this thread a week ago, and a week later bring up the fact that you "didnt know about it?" ?You said you got here "via a link in the GNR forum," which was today...but now youre claiming you actually got here from a PM, which was a week ago. ?The implication in todays post was that you had no clue about this thread until the link was posted in the GNR thread today, but the fact is you knew about it a week ago. ?Come on...


So thats it? ?Youre conceding that this is the proof on which you base the "Slash the liar" routine? ?First of all, the instance Jarmo pointed out 1.) Was brought to light long after you decided Slash is a liar and 2.) Doesnt have anything to do with "Slash lies to try and put Axl in a bad light and make him look like the bad guy or an asshole."

I dont recall the quote about the horns, or even the quote from "Behind The Music" at this point. ?Ive just asked to see them.

If people connected with the project say that there are completed songs with vocals then that overrides whatever slash says becuase the man is not a reliable source for what is going on with Gnr. \

Richard and Tommy  stated last year that they heard finished tracks. There should be no more question about the veracity of Slash's comment.

I don't know whether slash is lying or not becuase he would have to know the truth to formulate a lie. No one here knows one way or another. He could just be ignorant and too dense to realize that making statements like that make him look foolish.

Are you positive that those members heard more than three tracks?  After all, that could very well consitute "a few" in the eyes of Slash, or whoever informed him.


I dont think he looks very foolish because 1.) Again, nobody knows the facts and 2.) A year later, still no album or even a release date.  Or even a tentative release date.  Like I said, it could have very well been a presumptuous statement...but to know that wed have to know the facts of the matter, and who told him what.  Therefore, my position is the only logical one.  Its Daves position thats poorly-reasoned and incredible.

I am just referring to my own memory, but the report was that they heard 'the album'.  Whether or not it was changed since then is anyone's guess.

I think it does make him look foolish because he sounds embittered and mocking. If axl is the asshole that everyone claims, slash needs to take the high ground and not take petty shots like this which are realistically baseless.

This year: 2005AD
The cancelled Snakepit shows: 2001AD
Difference: 4 years
A decade = 10 years.

Maybe you should learn how to count before you post your pointless whining?

You should also look up the definition of "worked up". Booker asked for an example, I gave him one that I happened to find while looking for something else. You seem to take these things way too seriously.

When you withhold information and don't tell the whole truth, you're not being honst. When you're not honest, then you could be considered a liar and/or a dishonest person. That's my opinion.

If you personally think that's a fine personal trait, that's your opinion.



/jarmo

Well, like I said, I dont know. ?I dont know how many songs they claimed to have heard, or when they heard them (before/after Slash was told whatever he was told).


Well if memory serves me correctly, you supported a boycott of Contraband because of a lawsuit you concluded was filed for album publicity. ?So I think youre more sensitive about comments made about Axl than the average person...probably more speculative as well.

I certainly dont see how its realistically baseless, and I also dont see how its embittered and mocking to simply state what you believe to be true. ?

So its your opinion that keeping serious personal issues such as medical problems private (temporarily, as it seems) is enough to brand somebody a liar?

Well, I did buy Contraband; whatever reaction I had to the lawsuit was shortlived. Please don't let that affect your judgement of my point of view.

Honestly, Slash probably talked to some friend who heard some rumors of problems at the studio. They had an Axl bitch session and the idea was planted in his mind. This is how I'm viewing the 'revelation'.

Since Slash had no direct knowledge of what goes on in that studio, he never should have made that comment in public. It was reckless because he could supply no evidence that what he heard was true, merely some quip meant to deride his former partner. When it comes to the press, if you can't back it up, don't say it.

No, not in the way of being branded a liar for life.

If a person does the same thing over and over again, and not just about medical conditions, then maybe that term can be used. ?:hihi:

But I do think he was dishonest to his fans, but what band isn't? I guess that's what they have the publicists for....


/jarmo

You know whaxl clan are frustrated when they have nothing better to do than call people out on things like what a decade is. Wow jarmo, u showed me! When u began this site did u ever imagine what a petty person it would cause u to become?

How about commenting on botaxl supposedly not knowing his management had booked a european tour until he read about it on the 'net. Afterall, he is GNR nowadays, how could that happen if he was on top of everything? Maybe somebody was lying?

why don't  you prove that Axl lied about it? Jarmo just schooled you.

What do you mean become?



Hey, maybe he was!

But show me a quote where he has changed his story and we can talk more then. Obviously in the right section since this is for VR and its members.


It does sound like something that could've been in THis Is Spinal Tap. ?:hihi:





/jarmo

I don't even care about what slash says, I think people in general on forums waste so much time reading into every detail of slight changes in years of interviews.. We all have different feelings on different days and ways we express situations from the past.. Depends which side of the bed you woke up on that morning... For any fan of a rocker or musician the main focus should be is do they get out there and play their asses off and do they give you music do they keep you up to date on what's up etc.. Slash does all those things for me and whoever else follows what he does alone or with vr so that makes me happy and gratefull... call him whatrever you like wether because of feeling bitter do to no axl or new gnr album but I will be headed to my third vr concert to see slash n company which is what is important to me..

Hold on there a second Beavis, you never produced any evidence of Slash admitting to that...


Me either, it's never been produced/documented.

Oh so falcon now you are going to pretend you never saw the quote again? So typical. But again that is your M.O. just like booker. I find it funny last time this was talked about you said you never denied that slash said it just you wanted me to find the quote. So which is it falcon?

Like I said a lot of people remember reading it, but you just cant admit that slash lied about it. Its ok, I know the more and more you try and believe it was never said, you hope one day that you will convince yourself it was not said.

Post history has been checked, you never produced it. 

Ever.

That's your MO Beavis. 

Yeah because the thread got deleted because when  you are proven wrong you start to name call and get the thread either moved, locked, or deleted completely.

Nice try tho. Like I said its ok, I have the facts and truth on my side, while you have nothing.

Hell, I've never even been contacted by Jarmo or a mod let alone responsible for any of the above false accusations, I'd prefer if you refrained from lying.

Feel free to ask the powers that be, they'll tell you the same.


Until you prove it, the only thing on your side is a list of excuses, IE "deleted thread", "don't have the time to find the quote", "you know it's true Falcon/Booker, I'm not bothering"...

Some of you really need to get laid or get a life.....

I know the quote or story that Dave constantly goes on about - I read it somewhere years ago - I have a feeling it was a Guitar World article or something similar. Ive never seen it posted here though.

The funny thing is, Slash merely claimed responsibility for assembling the backing band - he certainly didnt claim it was his idea to have the backing band. This is never mentioned when Dave and his ilk try and use this as some 'proof' of Slashs dishonesty.

Frankly I find it laughable that some of you insist that atrocious lack of judgement and taste was Slash's fault given his love of stripped back, toe to toe rock n roll. Clearly, it was Axls idea to implement this

Alot of people on this board go on and on about Axl bashing etc,. In all fairness, I think Slash is the one that gets constantly bashed. People that point out that Axl has been an ass are quite justified given the way Axl has behaved. However, the reasons put foward to try and belittle Slash are merely pathetic. My favourites are that Slash is a liar and he hasn't moved on since GNR? :hihi: I mean the blatant hypocisy is just staggering in some cases. These same people overlook the fact that the current legal wranglings are merely about claiming what is rightfully theirs, but instead choose to believe the far fetched notion that Slash and Duff are somehow doing it sully Axls name in the media. Seriously guys, we all love Axl and know how great an entertainer he is - but get some perspective, put historical incidences in context.

I really don't know or think it's possible to label someone a total liar or otherwise (despite some past comments I might have made a couple of years ago), but I want to back dave up here.

I do recall reading an interview or something where Slash said he was responsible for the horns section idea, or at least 100% supportive of it.  I tried to find the interview, but it's hard to find an interview for something specific like that.  I know I read it somewhere, it's possible it was a fake interview, but there's definitely an interview or article out there that states that Slash said that.


I'll look again tomorrow and see if I can find it.

As I've stated a bazillion times, I think whomevers idea it was should be shot.  That said, it finally coming to pass is the responsibility of the entire group.

It's on all of them.


Please do, then we can finally put to rest the lame excuses for not posting documentation of the proof of the burden of responsibility.

I know I read axl saying or saw him in an interview saying slash made this big thing come together with the extras...? ?I just don't care though because I highly doubt he was the one guy who orchestrated the entire thing being axl seems to be more of the theatrical type who would add a piano or extra affects..

The music is what counts, it's time to stop being cunty and being beyond bored that we live and die over who says what... Gnr forums have went from music to he said she said bullshit with mini detectives wasting all their time picking a side and trying to prove the one they like least was a jerk off....

Falcon I really dont need to prove anything to y ou since others besides me have told you that slash said it. So it really does not matter if you want to believe it or not because its fact.

this is laughable, who cares if Slash lied more than Axl or vice-versa?

both lied before and will probably lie again sometime in the future just like everybody else in this world. Most people dont have the "luxury" to have a bunch of nerds disecting every quote or interview we ever gave (if any) and determine if we are liars or not  :o

dave-gnfnr2k, maybe you should try to get another point of view sometimes, i haven't read you writing anything positive about other original members, except Axl, as this still is a GUNS N' ROSES fansite.

So did anyone find the proof or what ?
I remember being a fan in 88,89,90,91,92,93,94 and 1995, and I would never imagine somebody calling themselves GnR fans talk so much shit about Slash,Duff,Matt,Steven and Izzy, and/or Axl as I've seen here.. Guess I was naive,young and stupid? C'mon people, what have become of us so-called fans. Are we reduced to blood-thirsty animals who want to rip the band members of one of the coolest groupes in the 80's and 90's apart? In my book, anyone who talk with so much disrespect about Slash, Duff, Izzy or Axl as some of you in this thresd have, are not really fans of GnR. You are making this in to a war between old and new versions of GnR, and that sucks big-time. You are like Bush: "Either you're with us, or against us". This is music, and you are turning this into a fucking soap-opera!! If someone of you said the shit about Slash infront of Axl between 85 to 96, he would smack you down, without further discussion..  I belive there is much love between the old guys and Axl, but pride and male testoron are making it so difficult to kiss and make up.. Most of the problems are contracts and shit, and to sort that shit out with lawyers and stuff are natural anyhow, whats the big deal? I've had companies, and old friends as partners or investors, and its normal to let lawyers take care of the legal hassle isen't it? Please people, try to give respect to all members of GnR. If you love NR, WTTJ, DC, PC, Coma, Hair of the Dog or any of the songs from AFD,LIES, UYI 1 and 2 , TSI? or Live erea, then you shouldent talk so much shit about the majority of members who made that happen? If you like the newer songs, and only them, talk as much shit as you want for all I care, but I cant stand the hipocricy among some of you guys.. You claim to be fans of GnR, but hate like 80% of the members who gave the masses knowledge about GnR? That's strange... ???  I dont think Slash are a liar anymore than Axl is, or Duff and so on and so on. I belive that sometimes they mess up a bit due to a human thing called memory,or the lack of it, or the media make up shit, or misunderstand them, sometimes they are misquoted, sometimes they get bored with the same fucking questions, or wants to fuck with,or joke with the reporter, sometimes they are forced to tell white lies, due to many things (legal shit, tactical shit or whatever), but I feel that most of the times Slash and Axl are honest guys who speak their minds when able to.

coolman78SLASH, cool post. hope everyone reads it, even axl fanatics.(no, i don't hate Axl, I hate ignorant Axl fans)

AMEN 8)
I endorse this position on the state of GNR.
BTW, Slash is less of liar than Axl is. That is the truth when it comes to the last 11 years of GNR history. I wish it was the opposite, because Axl is my hero, but I live on the memory of a glory that was lived by a kid in his early 20's who changed the world with his music and perspective, not the 30's-40's man stuck up in the mansion, being tended to by a "nanny".

If Axl has told the truth about anything, its that Slash is a "workaholic".
Thats why we've got this new VR board that kicks ass. Suckertrain Blues Rocks!!!

MNR

umm, this VR board isn't very new. It's been around for a bit of time.

Workaholicism is good for lawyers, writers, scientists....but I expect my musicians to seek quality rather than quantity of work. I would wait another 5 years for an axl album if it promised to be out of this world.

Now you say Axl is a liar....care to back up that claim, mr. marknroses?

I think 'lying' is a poor choice of words.  Dishonest or even better, "not upfront" better describes Axl.  He has not been upfront with his fans in years. I don't think either guys, Slash or Axl are liars.  But just look at Axl's track record:
-Claims he didn't know of a booked European tour and only discovered it on the net
-No shows for first show of 2002 tour but blames it on the arena, neglecting to tell people that he left LA waaaay to late to make the show on time
-No shows for Philly and is clearly not upfront with his fans. Has yet to issue an apology or statement. How can anyone, even you DaveGnFnr2k888, say this is being honest with your fans. 

It's not like these things happen once. It's over and over with him.  He simply isn't trustworthy or reliable.  A liar? No. Not exactly forthright or upfront? Absolutely.

Killingvector, why don't you just leave this VR area of the forum, as you only have negative things to say about them. please.

So would the same fate await the Axl bashers who enter the GnR forum and call Axl a fraud and thief? who label him a cancer to the gnr name? Methinks you better see the full spectrum of posters in this forum before you accuse someone of having a bias.

SIG, Axl has not been dishonest or misleading regarding a release date for this record. He never promised a release at any point; he has even been upfront and honest when asked when the album will drop. See his comments ' Live your life' and "Soon isnt the world" comments. so once again, I ask, give me proof that Axl deliberately mislead the public on any issue GnR. Show me proof that he lied.

umm, this VR board isn't very new. It's been around for a bit of time.

Workaholicism is good for lawyers, writers, scientists....but I expect my musicians to seek quality rather than quantity of work. I would wait another 5 years for an axl album if it promised to be out of this world.

Now you say Axl is a liar....care to back up that claim, mr. marknroses?

"see u next summer!"
"we'll see u next year with a whole bunch of new songs."
I also just read in a recent rerelease of an Axl interview in 1992-1993 where he planned on making a SOLO album with songs similar to "My World", while keeping GNR in its existing entity with Slash & Duff.

COMA wouldn't be a great song without Slash. "Its His baby" - said Axl Rose in a 1990 MTV Interview. Slash's guitar work on songs like Live & Let Die & The Garden, not to mention Welcome to the Jungle, Paradise City, November Rain & Estranged, make them the classics that they are.
& Since this is a VR board, his guitarwork on songs like STB, Big Machine, YGNR, FTP, Slither, make those songs killer-like, almost GNR songs, which is saying a hell of a lot for someone whose diet was 2 bottles of Jack a day.

MNR

How is that lying? You imply that he deliberately misled his fans for some personal reason. Since when is wishful thinking considered lying? Simply saying he would tour in a year doesnt constitute a lie because you haven't shown evidence that he knew he wouldn't conduct such a tour before making such a statement. Lying implies knowledge of facts that counter one's own statements. I think you need to read this thread more carefully. Booker did a splendid job of defending slash against these same claims. When the same standard proof is applied to Axl, your evidence falls on its face.

I expect Booker to back me up on this since the same standard must be applied to both Slash and Axl.

Also, I fail to see how your definition of a workaholic constitutes quality work. Simply because you like Slash's catalog doesn't constitute evidence that he is a harder worker than Axl. No one on this board knows exactly how many new songs were recorded and how high a quality was achieved. Until CD is released, no one will know if the wait was worth it.

KV

You judge how hard someone works on the results.  And Slash has already demonstrated the results with relentless touring and an album with Snakepit and VR.  Whether or not you like the music is irrelevant; you just can't deny Slash has been out there working his ass off.  With Axl, we haven't heard a word in years and have seen no songs, so it's passable to say Slash works harder, simply because he's produced results and Axl hasn't.  If Axl were to release an album and start touring nonstop, then we might be able to say otherwise.

And you're right, the fact that you like Slash's catalog doesn't mean he's a harder worker.  But on the same token, just because you don't like Slash's catalog doesn't mean he's not hard worker.  Because music is a matter of taste, you can't say that just because you don't like something, that work wasn't put into it.

I would judge Slash's (or Axl's for that matter) track record not on my personal opinion of the music, but how much of it they make, and how much time they spend on the road laboring long hours on tours.


I concur as in the definition of lying, however, the fact that Axl repeatedly makes statements of that nature constitutes being misleading to me.  I mean, how many times has he teased the fans about an album, new songs, and that kind of thing?  If I were Axl, I'd start making "soon is not the word" my mantra, because at least it doesn't mislead the fans.

Ive said quite a few times that I dont consider Axl a liar, and I certainly dont consider the examples given to be lies. 

We have not seen the fruits of axl's labors. It does not mean they don't exist Judgement of his work awaits. I agree with you for the most part but I cannot say that slash is a harder worker, just because his work has seen the light of day. It is premature to make that claim, just yet. When CD drops and plans are unveiled, alot of these questions can be answered.

Axl hasn't mislead fans. He said 'soon was not the word'. He said the would tour, record more, and then see where it goes. He told fans to live their lives.....Frankly, Axl couldn't have been more clear about the time spent on this album. The problem is people refuse to listen to these harbingers of the future.  If anyone has been misleading, it was Goldstein and Merck; they both quantitatively put expectations on how much CD was done. Axl, on the other hand, has been purposely flighty on this issue because he probably has little idea if or when it would be done.

Thank you.  : ok:

Even more preposterous than the "liar" stigma is the "Slash is lazy" routine Ive seen on here so many times.  And when faced with evidence proving the opposite - that Slash is in fact very hard-working - the detractors refer to their own subjective views on the quality of the work, which is obviously irrelevant. 

As for Slashs work-rate compared to Axls, I think thats pretty much a no-brainer.  We can speculate as to how hard Axls working on the recording of this album, and Im sure he is working hard on it, but i just dont thats comparable to the years of worldwide touring Slash has done since GNR, especially in the last two years.  The amount of touring hes done with VR alone is pretty damn impressive.  I dont see how writing and recording quite matches the amount of work invested in touring the world nearly non-stop for over a year.  Thats not taking into account the writing, recording, TV performances, and press Slash (and the others) have done.  And again, thats not to shortchange the work Axls done, but again I just dont find their scenarios very comparable.

It's all dependant on the release of this album. If it happens, Axl should tour extensively and make up a chunk of the visibility and touring gap. Artists function in strange ways; some like to work and release furiously a la Speilberg, the master of the quick shoot, others like Terrance Malick only pick up the camera when they are inspired.

Wouldn't you call it misleading the public when you show up late for most of your concerts, don't show at all for others, and don't issue any apologies or statements to the fans that bough tickets? If that's not misleading your fans, then what is?

I think when you promise something but it doesn't happen then a lot of people will be angry of you. if you do this promising as a routine and it turns out to be untrue again and again then people will think you are a liar. It's not wishful thinking anymore.

Back to the topic: everyone lies. Even Slash. But to say someone is a liar you'd have to prove that he's doing it again and again, as a routine, as a...habit. Since Slash has never done that way, we can close the topic.

Absoloutly man! Great post.  Those of us who can appriciate whatever these guys do away from GN'R, seem to be a minority on the net anyway.  We've been enjoying the albums and tours ect of who ever comes our way whether it's Snakepit, Neurotic Outsiders or VR. 

While the others have been sat on here spouting the same rubbish for about 4 years or more lol And it's all bollocks.  Alot of the online fans have turned into the the people 'Get in the Ring' was all about lol. If they somehow sorted their differences - because I think you're right it's probably all ego and stubbornes - became friends again alot of people here will have nervous breakdowns lol.  Anyway Rock on!

Oh and I don't know how someone can say Slash isn't a workhorse.  I mean ok, there are harder jobs out there.  But for what he does, he hasn't stopped man. 

Outside of the bands he's played in. The guest appearences on albums and the live stage are almost countless.  Stop being so bloody petty.  He loves doing what he does and he has the respect of his fans and his peers, that's a cool thing.

The only thing I don't believe about Axl is that 2001 Tour that "he didn't know about" I know people who bought the tickets and didn't get any money back.  I'm sure he reads some of the Mags or Net sites. Or I'm sure that the management knowing who  they were dealing with, i think they would have told Mr Rose myself. 

So when he showed up late to shows, he was lying to them? Do you actually believe what you are saying?

It was common knowledge on the 2002 tour as well as the Illusion World Tour that the shows would start as late as 1030/1045. If you couldn't wait for it, then you shouldn't be going. I told all the people around me what time the band would come on. A little bit of research before arriving at the venue would save many people the heartache of a long wait.  Axl certainly didn't mislead anyone about what time he was going to hit the stage.

As for Vancouver, Axl did make comments about that incident. Philly maybe causing some form of litigation at this point, preventing the band from making an official statement. Therefore, no apology could be forwarded without an impact on the proceedings.  It is an issue that needs closure and will probably happen sometime in the future.  It is very possible that the venue/promoter are to blame; but of course it is easier to blame Axhole.

Please, killingvector, who are you trying to kid?  We all know the reason for the Vancouver and Philly riots...and its Axl.  If Axl wanted to play those shows he would have. 

This really is the dumbest fucking thread ever, it was just asking for it....

LOL. And you know what happened in Philly.....please indulge us with the undeniable proof that you possess.

man that is some of the most fucked logic ever. So the fans are supposed to know in advance that hes going to be late and turn up late as well?
So what happens when he decides (which he does occasionally) that he'll be on time?
Even still, it is an outrage to show such blatant disregard to your fans. I cant believe people try and defend that shit

Oh yeah, Axl also lied when he took the MTV Video Vanguard Award in 1992, when he said "Oh, by the way, this award has nothing to do with Michael Jackson!". In fact, Josh Richman, an estranged friend of Axl's, said in a SPIN 1999 interview that axl had told him to make videos "that are like Michael Jacksons."

anyways,

MNR

ummm, yeah. Don't you read look online for reviews, setlists, ect before you attend a show?

Well done Sherlock. I guess this means that every questionable statement by Axl can now be construed as a lie....... :confused:


If so, then Slash is a liar as well. If of course, we apply the same standard since Jarmo found an equally meritous case of Slash fibbing.

its still no rationale man
regardless, what about the fact that sometimes he is on time? so which are you gonna choose?

How does showing up late make him a liar?

I didnt say it makes him a liar, just an asshole
I  find it trite that people defend things like that
Its ok to be a fan of the guy, but to defend lousy behaviour like that doesnt make you any more of a fan

ok, but you are offtopic then. The debate going on was whether slash/axl have lied to their fans. Your discussion is relevant for another thread.

If Axl since the UYI days and the 2002 tour pretty much ALWAYS go on stage at 1030 or so how is he always late? That makes no sense. ?He is on time if he always goes on stage at the same time every show.

whatever man
discussions can veer off into other areas occasionally
I addressed something you said - big deal

Ok if thats the rationale you and KV are going to subscribe to,
how about the fact that on the tickets a time is stated?

therefor if Axl doesnt honour the time stated on his tickets, that is dishonest?

I still have my ticket and there is not a time listed for what time guns n roses go on stage just what time the opening band goes on stage. Nice try tho.

The time listed on the ticket is when the opening bands start. It says and promises nothing about when axl takes the stage.

I thought you said axl being late was not evidence of him being a liar? have you backtracked?

Can we just give this up?  I've posted here too, I admit.  But, nothing's been proven, and it's gotten out of hand.  We're all human, whether our name is Slash or Axl.   
 

well every time Ive attended a concert, there has always been a time stated, so there ya go

Repeat for the hard of hearing: the time listed is when the opening bands come out. I just saw the Stones in Hartford; the time listed was 8pm. Sure enough, Maroon 5 walked out at 8pm and played til 8:45. The Stones didn't appear for over an hour later, approximately 9:45.  GnR had 2 opening acts with comparable time between the time the last act ended and their set began.

give it up.

read the post after that dude
youre being facetious

initially it wasnt, no, as i stated

then when your buddy Davo jumped in, I thought Id offer you that as food for thought as youre being such a stickler for "sticking to the topic"

whether or not it's on your ticket or not or whether its support band, there is an acceopted standard as to how things should play out. Keeping your fans waiting for 1 - 3 hours is not only unacceptable, there is an element of dishonesty because you are not adhering to reasonable expectations

yes Axl has been late alot. Not always. So therefor you expect fans to turn up late when Axl may decide to go on, on time?You still havent addressed that

give it up?
How about you grow up - lets keep the discussion to a mature level, please? is that so much to ask KV?

huh? either way you want it, you are still wrong. Do you need it explained again?


EDIT: since you edited your post, I'll respond.


The time lag between the last note of the opening act(s) and the first note of the featured act was approximately the same for both GnR and the Rolling Stones. Are Mick and Keith lying to their fans?

no, youre wrong

I'll spell it out for ya:

a) There are expected norms in terms of turning up on time for a gig. Most people dont trawl the net before going to a gig. If the ticket said 8 oclock and they knew there were support bands (usually states this on the ticket or is advertised in some capacity) they could expect to see the headliner on the stage at the lates 9.45 -10pm. If headliner doesnt turn up till 11 or later, that is a dishonest exchange between performer and consumer. The consumer would have every right to feel duped.

b) as my initial point was this and I did only mention that it was dishonest when you insisted I address the post

tell me : IF AXL IS LATE SOMETIMES AND ON TIME SOMETIMES, WHAT TIME SHOULD THE FAN TURN UP TO THE GIG. SHOULD HE ASSUME HE WILL BE LATE AND RUN THE RISK THAT HE"S ON TIME AND HENCE MISS THE GIG, OR SHOULD HE TURN UP ON TIME AND RUN THE RISK THAT HES LATE ADN HAVE TO STAND AROUND FOR HOURS?

please address the writing in caps

well youre obviously comparing the stones gig to a gig where Axl turned up on time

That proves nothing KV - youre really clutching at straws there

Ive said all im saying on this

The ticket makes no promises when the featured act takes the stage. Period. You can assume what you want, but the fact that there were TWO opening acts for GnR in 2002 implied that the band would not be on stage at 930-945-1000. If you or anyone else could not figure that out, then it's your problem. The time needed to set up the stage after the opening act(s) have concluded is approximately one hour for an arena size show. If 1030 is too late for u then don't go.

still havent adressed the writing in caps KV?

You have lost give it up. Axl every since the 90s have come on stage around 1030pm. Every gnr fans knows that, if they dont people around them tell them that. ?If you are a fan of gnr then you know what time Axl goes on stage esp if you have seen them atleast once. ?As for your caps what is your point? If the ticket says the opening band goes on at 8pm then if you are there at 8 you will never miss Axl. So I dont get your point? You are not making any sense.

haha thats funny Dave

I think KV would rather you didnt join him and back him up
Any poster that has you backing him realises they must be full of it   :hihi:

I have already. Learn to read and interpret, son.

bollocks, and you know it

you havent even recognised that sometimes Axl is on time (on time being dictated by the expected practise that all touring bands follow)
some of the time. All youve said is you can expect him to be late so you havent addressed that at all

I have clearly explained what happened on the 2002 and the UYI tour for the most part. Unless you have something new to add, this discussion has ended.

'for the most part' doesn't cut it im afraid
that right there is all I needed to prove my point
im off to bed now, thanks for the debate :beer:

If you want to continue this on PM, you can feel free to contact me. But I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the time that a band is 'supposed' to take the stage.

you are a classic, Davie.  If Axl killed your own mother, you'd say she deserved it.  It's called a pattern.  In court, they try to prove someone is guilty based on a history of violence or a pattern of behavior.  Axl Rose has a long pattern of dicking over his fans. That is a FACT and is indefensible no matter how you want to spin it.  How many examples do you need? How about Montreal where he walked off b/c he didnt like the sound? Or St. Louis where a similar thing happened? How about Vancouver - the FIRST show of a new tour? Or Philly? How about the Meadowlands while touring with Metallica and Faith No More - walked off stage there too.  How about all the times he has gone on ridiculously late for no reason.  How about the canceled Euro tour?  Has he ever issued a single apology to fans? Ever? Did he apologize for Montreal, Stlouis, Vancover, or Philly? Did he issue any statement at all to those who missed the show and still had to eat the BS ticketmaster charges? Of course not. And there, Dave, lies the reason that many of us do not like Axl Rose.

Go ahead and spin away...

I thought this was about Slash the liar.

VR came on stage around 9:40:ish at one of the shows I saw last January. I guess it makes them assholes?



Maybe you have selective memory.

On behalf of Guns N' Roses and myself I apologize to the fans who planned to see us at Rock In Rio - Lisbon.
March 30th, 2004



/jarmo

No, it's when they do it several times.

There you go again, instead of answering a simple question you resport to a personal attack, which inturn shows you know  you have lost and cant come up with a legit answer good work mate  :peace:

SIG and JIG like I said before, there is no time on the ticket that gnr appears, also anyone that has been to ONE gnr show or has seen axl interviews on mtv? back in the day knows he always goes on stage around 1030 or so. KV even showed you how the stones do the same thing yet you dont hear their fans bitching about it.

The only people that are not making any sense are the ones that cant explain how axl is late to every show when he goes on stage at the same time pretty much every even during the UYI era.

I fail to see how this is dishonest and you have failed to prove how it is since like I said its the norm with this band.
Again more failed attempt at witt when you have lost a debate.
The good old if axl killed my mother line. Leave my mother out of this and that killing her thing is lame but I have come to expect stuff like that from you.

As for this being a pattern, since it is a pattern of axl going on at 1030 then no one should be crying that he goes on so called late. You are making my arguement for me. Thanks.

Now you bring up the montrel show but you failed? to mention Axl wanted to go back on stage when the crew fixed the sound but secruity would not let him. Why didnt you? bring that one up? Oh that is right, classic SIG not giving the whole story just the parts that he wants to make axl look like the asshole.

As for St Louis, let see that biker gang for one was pushing around fans, the guy even flashed a lawyer card to Axl during the show taunting him, and when axl asked him to be removed by securtity for a camera which was the straw that broke the camels back, he left.

Axl gave a reason for the canceled euro tour, he said he did not know about it. How is that not a good answer or telling the fans a reason? You really think if it was a lie that he could not have come up with a better excuse? Also, a rapper not too long after this axl incident cancelled an over seas tour because his manager booked? it without his knowing.

As for the 2002 tour, we all know he had plane trouble, sure he should have been there at a better hour but shit happens. Philly no one knows? what happened but even CC neve said why Axl did not show, so doesnt that strike you as odd? ITs really said you claim to? be a gnr fan yet dont know their history, its sad really. Bands cancel shows all the time and tours all the time even your precious slash with his VR. But of course its always ok when they do it just not when Axl does it. Also remember scott walked off stage too during one of the VR shows last tour if im not mistaken.

You can hate axl rose all you want but its funny you keep posting on the gnr side of the message board if you hate the man so much.

St. Louis - 14 years ago.
Montreal - 13 years ago.

What do people still whine about? Those two concerts!


Did anything else piss you off in 1991-1992 that you still complain about? Maybe you didn't get the toy you wanted with your Happy Meal back in the summer of 1991?


You don't seem to understand, the same things that makes Axl an asshole in your eyes is what makes him the Axl who writes the songs you like listening to. It seems like it's really cool to have a band that doesn't do what they're told until a certain point. They should be dangerous as long as it doesn't involve being late to a concert you're attending. Telling a fan to fuck off because he's trying to interrupt the show is cool as long as it doesn't happen at your show etc etc.


If you did your homework, you'd know that Axl is always late. I thought the people here were fans and they knew that. Turns out I was wrong. Oh, and Axl's not the only one who has a problem with that. There are "normal" people who are never on time as well! Those assholes!


By reading the comments here, it seems like you guys wish GN'R would've been just another 80s hair band who goes on stage on time and never pisses anybody off in any way.





/jarmo

that would so NOT be guns n roses.  The antics and everything that happened was such a huge part of their history.  St. Louis riots, police and niggers, Izzy pissing in that airplane, Slash and Duff being drunk and swaring on live TV, Axl always being late and doin his thing, I could go on.. 

I have one comment I must add to the "Does Axl take the stage late" discussion.

Most major venues (excluding clubs) in the U.S. have a curfew of 11 p.m.? This is for insurance reasons, insurance won't cover a venue if a band plays past 11 p.m.?

A typical Axl show on the 2002 tour was what, about two hours long?? ok, so if Axl takes the stage at 10:30 p.m. and plays a standard two hour show, that means he and his band leave the stage at 12:30 a.m., which is 90 minutes past the curfew.

So on that basis, Yes, I would say that Axl does indeed go on late, and it's inexcusable whether it's expected or not.? In addition to insurance provisions, the curfew also assures fans a show in a timely manner, and by violating the curfew, Axl is denying that of the fans.

I don't know if Axl was fined during the 2002 tour or not, but during the UYI tour, GNR was paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in curfew violation fees because Axl couldn't take the stage on time.

The fan outcry about Axl's tardiness during the UYI tour was so massive that Rolling Stone addressed the issue in an interview with Axl.? They asked him why he insisted on taking the stage so late, and he gave some smarmy response like "If they were spending that time getting laid, they wouldn't care about how late it was."

Please, Jarmo... You can't be serious.  :confused: GN'R wouldn't have been another 80s hair metal band if Axl had chosen to go on stage on time.

BTW I agree that it should have been clear to the fans that every great singer in the history was an asshole. Even Axl, even Scot Weiland. Even Lennon etc. But there is a little difference in how they handled their own fans.

You didn't read the whole sentence....

I didn't say Axl going on stage on time would make them into Winger. But it seems like some people here would want GN'R to be more like Winger!  :hihi:



/jarmo

with respect jarmo, thats just plain nonsense i'm afraid

no one is disputing the fact that Axl is regularly late.

The point I was trying to make is that he was not always late, so any sensible fan is not going to turn up late and just assume Axl will have another late show will he?

Therefor, Axl is making his fans wait regardless,

Im not sure what your point of the 80s hair band was? we all love dangerous Axl/GNR yes, that doesnt mean that every thing he's done is to be blindly commended.

For instance, I thought his whole badass attitude on One in a million was topical and ultimately a cool artistic statement (not to say I agree with those sentiments, but I thought the controversy it caused was indicative of what Axl was trying to address).

However, I didnt find him covering Look at your game girl at all badass or cool. It seemed lame, contrived and ultimately a concerted attempt to court controversy.

Do you see the point Im making?

Yes, we all admire Axls neurotic, unique approach to his position, that is part of what makes him such an enigma. However, this doesn't automatically spare him from all critisism when he does something lame and disrespectful to his fans.

I don't know what fans assume or not.

Reading all these whining about Axl not doing this, being late, doing that makes me wonder what you want from him?

Maybe I'm one of the few people who doesn't get upset if he doesn't release albums every 3-5-7 years or if he turns up late at shows...

Yeah, it'd be really conveniant if Axl started his shows at 9PM and ended in time so that people could take the last train home. It'd be really conveniant if he kept an online blog where he told us what he did every day so that we could discuss his breakfast instead of going throught the same recycled topics like this one.


I don't understand your point. He's late sometimes? So the whining wasn't about him being late too often?



It's not that difficult to understand what I meant, you said the same thing yourself:





A lot of people like to complain about everything, some have seem to forgotten there's a thing called constructive criticizm.

Anyway, why are you whining about Axl in the VR section? This is supposed to be about Slash being a liar isn't it?




/jarmo

There you go again, instead of answering a simple question you resport to a personal attack, which inturn shows you know? you have lost and cant come up with a legit answer good work mate? :peace:

jeez.. lighten up a little Dave
bitter and defeated is never a good look for you - try to be a bit more humble in defeat next time please. thanks : ok:

How am I better or defeated? Have you even read what Me, JV or Jarmo have said to you? I guess not. T  You have been owned in this thread, who are you trying to fool? he only person you are fooling by comments is yourself.

Thats quite a leap youve made there. ?Youre making up extreme hypotheticals instead of discussing realistic possibilities, and it doesnt make much sense. ?Did anybody say he should write a blog, or that we should discuss his breakfast? ?And I can safely assume that youll respond by telling me that youre exaggerating, but are people on here asking for anything remotely close to that to warrant such an implication? ?I think a lot of people would like, perhaps, one update within 18 months. ?Thats the reality, and you exaggerating to the extent of "an online blog" certainly doesnt add to any point youre trying to make. ?

The same goes for the "hair band" comparision.  Whats the connection?  Are hair bands punctual while every other band or artist is late?


 ::)

Yeah, because you seem to take everything so seriously.

 


No idea. They're just everything GN'R were supposed to be against.

That's the "connection".


You don't like the color black, so you make it a little brighter and then it's grey. Which means it's not black anymore.


Since this is the VR section and that band has said they're unpredictable on a few occasions, isn't Axl also unpredictable?

It's supposed to be a good thing isn't it?




 :P


/jarmo

owned? I think not my boy - just because a couple of blind Axl-zealots have jumped all over statements ive made that the rationally thinking people of the world would agree with does not the winning of an argument maketh.

This is going to be my last word on the topic

-Why am I having another post on it? Because various people have tryed to mix things up, purposefully misrepresent me and then bring in innane examples such as hair metal and online blogs about breakfast.

-In this thread someone brought up Axls lateness and went from there. Yes I know it has nothing to do with Slash supposedly 'lying'?  ::) Im not sure who brought it up and why, but it happened.

-KV in one of his posts offered a rationale on Axls behalf stating that people attending Axls shows should do some research on the net before they attend and that way they should know that Axl is likely to be late.

- I posted that I found this rationale to be lame, regardless of the fact that Axl is known to be late. I also proposed the view that Axl is sometimes on time, so there isnt the consistency that some were suggesting. If a fan was to turn up late assuming Axl would take the stage late, and Axl decided to be on time - the fan would miss the show and vice versa.

- KV pulled it back to the question of honesty in line with the thread title.

- As food for thought (even though the initial point was not exclusive to the thread and this was stated categorically at the time), I offered the notion that it was in a sense a dishonest transaction between fan and performer to keep them guessing and put them in a situation where they could miss the show or  somehow be  put out.

- KV stated that the other night the Stones kept him waiting as long as GNR had. Later Jarmo stated that VR had kept him waiting. I think both of them should accept that there is a big difference between being late once or twice and being late about 75% of the time.

- davegnfnr2k joined the party and inevitably the debate degenerated into farce.

- I dont know what hair metal and online blogs about breakfast have to do with any of this. but I will say that the points I have made are all valid ones

The delay with the Rolling Stone was standard for the entire tour. It wasn't once or twice, but their whole tour. This isn't a question of one or two exceptions.

And just because you think researching a show is lame, doesnt make it so. If i had kids and was going to a rock show, I would damn well find out when the band hit the stage and how long the show was, jus so I could prepare the babysitter. It is very common to find out these sort of things when time is important.

Jarmo - you seem to resort to sarcasm in an attempt to make a point. Unfortunately it doesn't work here at all.  The simple fact remains - Axl Rose is notorious for taking the stage late. He is notorious for walking off stage when things aren't just perfect for him. He is notorious for no showing.  This is not 'dangerous' behavior.  This is BULLSHIT behavior.  You don't do that to your fans time and again. You don't walk off stage because you don't feel like singing that night. You don't decide last minute to not show up for a gig and then not issue any statement.  You don't do these things time and again.  How the fuck can people (no reason to name names) continually excuse whatever Axl does? I figured the Vancouver debacle would've been enough to finally open some people's eyes. Nope.  Then I figured Philly was the final straw. Nope. You can say you love his singing. tell me he can write great songs. Tell me he is one of the best lead singers of all time. But don't defend his lousy behavior to his fans.  Stop with the lame excuses for his behavior.  How many fucking former band members, producers, wives, managers, etc. must Axl go through before you finally say "You know, maybe Axl is a pain to work with." 

You got me there, Jarmo.  VR was late one night so that excuses Axl from going on stage late every night, no showing in Vancouver n PHilly, causing riots in Montreal and St louis, canceling a Euro tour, walking off stage in Chicago, at the Meadowlands and who knows how many other places.

And you sure got me with the apology.  After allthe time Axl has fucked over his fans, you dug hard and proved me wrong. You found that one apology. That Axl sure is a saint.

Obviously you stuck it out and remained a fan. What kept you going since Axl mistreated YOU so badly?

Defending him? No.

But I've accepted that it's the way he is instead of spending years whining about "how can Axl be such an asshole?".



Actually, it wasn't that hard since it's the latest statement from Axl and also the last show they've cancelled.

But I guess the idea of me having to look for it makes your idea of Axl never apologizing more credible...





/jarmo

Ya know, Axl is no angel, but...

Vancouver, the guy was IN THE AIR.  His flight was late due to the crappy weather in CA.  You can argue that he should have left earlier (the day before) I suppose, but...we have no idea what commitments the guy had in LA.

Philly....nobody knows what the fuck happened.  Maybe (probably) it was Axl.  But it's awful tough to bank on it.  I mean....Bucket (or his illness, rather) was responsible for the cancelling of some Euro shows, if I remember correctly.  Without having the full story, it's irresponsible to lay the blame entirely at Axl's feet.

Urban legend, FYI.

MOST venues (in the US, at least) do not have an 11 PM curfew...or at least not in the sense you're thinking.

SOME (a very small number) have a hard wired curfew built in by the municipality (the city), but they're few and far between, and it's later than 11 PM (usuall midnight, or 12:30-ish) and even that is flexible to some extent (sporting events going OT, etc).? In those places, there CAN be, at the municipalities discretion, a fine levied.

What MOST venues DO have is a clause in the performers contract that says if the show goes past a certain time, there is some sort of additional monies due the facility (it covers Overtime and other facility expenses, including the extension of the facilities insurance on the event, as well as operational expenses like power, etc).? That time is standard but negotiable in every contract with every promoter/performer/etc..? And the money is not astronomical, even if the performer decides to go over.? It's not like it's a "fine", in the sense that it's illegal, in most places.

Just to flavor the discussion....

Just one small comment:

Slash said there were vocals on only a "few" songs.  I saw this mentioned before, and then debated since there is argument that there is not enough info to prove he is wrong.

1) Chinese Democracy
2) The Blues
3) Riyhad and the Bedouins
4) Silkworms
5) Madagascar
6) IRS

That's more than a few songs that WE'VE heard.

In addition, there were confirmed media reports that Axl played C.D. in that strip club in Vegas...confirmed by management.

We've also heard reports from many other sources (Brian May, Moby, even the old Rolling Stone article) citing other material with various comments.

Now, I don't think Slash lied, per se.  I think he probably got ahold of some bad information and repeated it....and that's probably an interpretation open to debate.  But, either way, I think there's a pretty vast amount of evidence to support the fact that what Slash said isn't true.

Tom Zutaut confirmed that the band was paying (as I said) hundreds of thousands of dollars in curfew violation fees during the UYI tour.  That doesn't sound like it could be the result of the mild "contractual clauses" you're talking about.




That example doesn't hold water.  just because 5 of those 6 songs have been performed live does not mean they've been completed in the studio.

Actually, it would be exactly what he's talking about....and, if it were every venue (and, given GnR's penchant for being late, it probably was), it COULD rack up to an amount that high (it's usually based on some sort of hourly "fee").  But, in the grand scheme of things, on a venue by venue basis, the amount, all things considered, isn't that outrageous.  I know at the Colliseum in New Haven, it was ABOUT 4k to 5k an hour (or part of an hour), back when I was working there.  Larger venues usually charge more.  Over the course of a whole tour, that could add up quick..but it's not a "fine" or a "curfew" as most people think of it.  I just wanted to provide a bit more info on the subject, because, when most people talk about this, they assume it's some sort of "legal" thing...and it's not, technically.


And you don't think it's a bit obtuse to suggest they're not done, given we've heard them?  I mean, lets be realistic here and not put blinders on simply to try to support our position.  If Axl's singing them, they have lyrics....they might not be COMPLETE/COMPLETE, but that's not what he said.

You have not given any proof at all, when three or four people in this thread have given you examples.

How many people out there beleived Oh My God was a completed tune when it was included on the End of Days sountrack?
Everybody.
Then way later, according to Axl, it was only a demo or something :-\...

Since I read the article first....


Anyway on topic, if Axl said that, he meant Slash had lied to him so many times or betrayed him and not us. IMO.
I don't think bsing about oneself to others would deeply hurt ones friend.

As I clearly stated, I like his singing and songwriting and loved the original GnR. But unlike all the Axl apologists on here, that doesn't mean I must defend all of his actions.  I loved watching Mike Tyson as a performer too (when he was actually good) but certainly thought his actions were deplorable.  But there are fans/zealots who will defend a performer/athlete/actor/celebrity through thick and thin no matter who they act because, well they're a celebrity/actor/athlete/performer. 

There is a big difference between lying/being dishonest and being wrong.  Everyone is wrong from time to time. Lying means telling someone one thing while knowing it isn't true.  The question isn't whether Slash lied here, it's whether he knew he was spreading false information. 

Dave - you love to use the words "prove it".  So go and prove that Slash knew that Axl had all these completed songs with lyrics and purposely said otherwise.  Was he wrong? Maybe - although we don't really know that either.  Did he "lie"? If you can show A) Axl has many songs with finished lyrics, and B) Slash knew this - then I would agree he lied.

Now go "prove it".

I wish you would apply that same standard of honesty and dishonesty to Axl. It would open your mind a bit more.

In America, there are criminal and civil trials.  In a criminal trial, you must prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that someone is guilty.  That means that if there is even a tiny bit of doubt, you are supposed to vote "not guilty".  In a civil trial, you must only convince the jury that there is a high likelihood of guilt.  I liken a trial of Axl to a civil trial.  Can I/we conclusively prove that he is the reason for Vancouver, St Louis, Montreal, Philly, Buckethead leaving, Slash leaving, Duff leaving, Izzy leaving, wives leaving, producers leaving/being fired, managers coming and going, showing up late, canceling shows, canceling tours, etc?  No, I cannot prove it 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.  But I can certainly show a high likelihood given everything I've read, heard, statements from those in Axl's life, and most of all a consistent pattern or history of problems and issues.   Is he innocent of Vancouver? Maybe - could be the plane, the weather, etc. How about Philly? could be Clear Channel, I guess. And maybe Slash left for some other reason. But c'mon. This is not a one time incident. Or a two time incident. Or even a 5 time incident.  It happens over and over and over.  So no, I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is at fault for all of this.  But it's pretty hard to blame someone else or excuse him for everything when you use any sort of logic.  So to me, to not own up to any of these things - to always blame someone else or completely ignore the issue, screams dishonesty.  It's not "lying"; it's being dishonest to his bandmates, the media, and most of all to his fans.

Am I whining about this? No - I don't give a rat's ass and just want to hear some new music.  I am actually more interested in how anyone could possibly overlook everything he's done to everyone around him and could still make excuses for everything.

excellent post

logical, open minded and rational to a fault.

unfortunately and rather predictably,? it won't make a shred of difference to these people? :hihi:

I think I tried telling people that regarding Slash having the flu or pneumonia while the fact was that he was in the hospital due to his drinking.

So I guess I'm not the only one who thinks it can be considered lying when you only tell part of the story to make yourself look better?


I guess Booker will defend it by saying "it's his personal life and maybe he had the flu too"...


Anyway, I don't care, Slash can lie all he wants if it makes him happy. I found it interesting that somebody seems to agree with my "definition" of lying.




/jarmo

Here's the quote:

""There's only a couple of songs with vocals on it -- I know that for a fact. "

To think the above is true, or was true back in June of '04, given we've heard 6 complete songs now, ONE of which was undeniably from the studio (IRS), and given we know that Axl has played the album at Crazy Horse (again, remember, confirmed), isn't realistic.? If you want to stand your ground and hold that position...hey, who am I to rob you of your illusions.? But it's an obtuse position to take, given what we know, and one obviously adopted strictly to bolster your own opinion.?

Just put the blinders back on.? I'm sure you'll be much happier that way.

I agree, 100%.? I think Slash was just wrong.? I don't think he lied, at all, in this case.

So in what cases did he lie?

I have no idea.  Not my argument. :)  And, since I don't really care if he DID/DOES lie....I'm not gonna go searching, either.

I said "in this case" simply because, as every human does, I'm sure he's lied at SOME point, about SOMETHING (jarmo's example is a good one, whether you think him justified or not).

Don't hold your breath, GIS. ?

Proof for a few around here revolve around opinion stated as fact backed by personal speculation and ill ? informed overanalysis.

Hell, I'm still waiting for proof the back up singers and horn section were Slash's idea..

Personally, I have no idea if Slash lied about how many songs Axl had vox on, only he does. ?If he knew for a fact Axl had more vox laid down than he stated, he's lying. ?If he was under the impression that's all
Axl had completed and stated that, he's not.

 

I'm hardly taking "personal shots".? I'm pointing out the fragility of the position you're clinging to so desperatley....and that clinging to it is tantamout to wearing blinders.? If you'd like not to be labeled such, perhaps you could provide evidence that actually might pertain to the current incarnation of GnR, rather than "hypotheticals".? Truth is...you can't.

"Changed" does not equal "only a couple songs have vocals".? Complete does not equal "only a couple songs have vocals".? He didn't say "Only a couple of songs are complete".? He didn't say "Only a couple of songs won't be changed". I reprinted the exact quote for you.

You've given hypothetical situations that have little to no proven relation to the current incarnation of GnR.? Those that DO relate, have NOTHING to do with whether THESE songs have vocals or not..? Those songs you mention from the UYI era...they DID have vocals, prior to '91.? We've heard some of the demos.? They weren't complete, sure...but they had vocals.? We've heard them!

I've given you ACTUAL information regarding GnR and THIS set of songs.? We've heard 6 complete songs, 1 from the studio.? We've gotten reports that Axl played CD at Crazy Horse (a piece of information that refutes your argument completely, anyway) and those reports were confirmed by management.? We've heard OTHER PEOPLE talk about material with vocals on it...and more than 2 songs worth.? It's all the evidence COMBINED that makes it likely there were more than, and are more than, 2 songs with vocals on them.

You're basing your opinion on unfounded speculation.....unfounded speculation contradicted by established evidence.? That, to me, is putting blinders on.? Ignoring evidence, or attempting to "hypothetically" discredit it, because it doesn't support your position is a pretty tenuous position.? You're more than welcome to it...

This has gotten way too intense for me.   I can't even follow it anymore.  Too mind boggling.   

Wrong.

1) July 16th, 2003....less than 1 year before Slash's comments.

2) December, 2002.? 18 months before Slash's comments.? In addition, IRS was played on the Trunk show on Labor Day weekend, 2003.

3) The Times article, which was what...about 3 months ago?? And, at the time of Slash's comments, there were 3 or 4 quotes, from within the band and without, that indicated there was more material than " a couple of songs with vocals".

So no, not stuff that's 3 to 4 years old or was 3 to 4 years old when Slash made his comments.

And, FYI, you can't gauge whether Slash's comments are true NOW, applied to the current state of the album, only if they were true when he made them....so the time frame that is pertinent is when things occurred in relation to when Slash actually MADE his comments, not to "right now".


The band member said some of the material had been recorded during the past 2 years..that's '03 - '05, yes.? But I don't believe they "quantified it" with a % of what's on the album.? They certainly didn't say ALL, which, of course, means that, at least, SOME of it was recorded prior to '03.? Slash made his comments in mid '04.

You are introducing hypotheticals because the actual EVIDENCE, such that it is, contradicts your opinon, so you're looking for any way possible to discredit it.?In the face of a lack of actual evidence to support your arguemnt, you resort to playing the "what if" game. The argument you're presenting, however, is a "Slippery Slope" fallacy (go ahead, look it up).

As for the numbered comments (1-5), they're irrelevant because they're rampant speculation, and unfounded rampant speculation contradicted by evidence we've seen.? That's a pretty tenuous position to try to hold on to, but, as I said, if you want to hold on to it, you're welcome to it.


It's YOU who don't really have a leg to stand on, because you have no actual PROOF that what you're "guessing at" is remotely reality.? I have actual things that have occurred and been said that support mine. Is it possible? Sure.? Doubtful, to the almost the point of certainty, given the evidence at hand? Absolutely. In any formal forum of debate or discussion, your assertions would be dismissed because they're unfounded.?


The evidence we have directly contradicts your "hypotheticals"....so calling them "very real possibilities" is giving them far too much credit.? And I'm not blindly ignoring them.? If I were blindly ignoring them, I wouldn't be pointing out the very large holes in them....because I wouldn't consider them at all.?


We have heard 6 complete songs.? Not complete RECORDED songs (I didn't say that).? 6 complete songs (not snippets).? They had a begining, middle, end, music, solos, and vocals.? They were complete songs.? Whether YOU like it or not.? And ONE of those songs was most definitely from the studio.



And I intend only to show that your opinion, WITHOUT proof (which you say, yourself, you don't have), while possible, is pretty damn unlikely given the evidence at hand.? I can provide you with a boatload of evidence to the contrary....both proven facts/events and comments from a variety of people over a variety of time frames.? You provide "what if's" that have nothing to support them.? Again, if you want to cling to that tenuous position, more power to you...you're welcome to it.

And, on that note, I think my point is made so feel free to have "the last word". :)

Edit:? Oh, and here's one of those comments "from a variety of people".? From Eddie Trunk on the CD he played back in Sept of '03:

"The rest of the CD was also cool. It sounded like a total of 3 songs, with instrumental versions of each of the 3, making a total of 6 tracks (I think). The last track, which I did not play, was the best. A great rocker, with tons of shredding guitar from Buckethead. I don't know what the title was, but I kinda wish I had the chance to play that one as well. Mike & I didn't really know what we had, so we just played the first track IRS. "

3 songs with vocals, and 3 instrumental versions of them.

3 STUDIO tracks, with vocals, confirmed to exist in late '03.? 3 is more than "a couple".

And now I really am out.? :peace:

I dont really think thats true. i think its more of people dont really care anymore to go back and "prove" their case. There was a time when I would be interested in going back and getting all the quotes and examples necessary to "prove" slash has lied.

But now who cares. And thats the thing, most people have moved on. The majoirty of the people who want to be proven so badly are doin it so they can somehow paint Slash as an angel or something and solidy the case against Axl ROse

SLash and his little tophat disciples should just move on from the whole gnr thing. WHen its over, its over....its over.

Ye, now you just blabber shit instead of proving anything, good attitude.

I diagree, if someone os going to make statements posed as fact theat are obviously disputable, I see absolutely no problem with asking for verification.


Not so in my case, I asked for documetation from any?member taking responsibility for the horns/back up singers after another poster had contiuously blamed the guitar player for original idea.



That'll never happen, on either side.?

The emotional ties to that incarnation of GNR are just too strong and the split in the fanbase is so divided it will never not be a topic of conversation.? ?I expect some Axl/Slash talk will subside if/when Axl ever gets his shit together but until then, expect more of the same.

As an aside on the horn section thing:

Wasn't Duff's brother one of them?

AND, I think I found the article in question via dejanews:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.rock-n-roll.metal.gnr/browse_thread/thread/de994600d46982dd/73b944756e8d1618?lnk=st&q=Slash+horn+section&rnum=1#73b944756e8d1618

Here's the quote:

He said the all-female horn section was his idea.? "It's like seeing a
girl driving a Ferrari," he said.? "It's something you don't expect to
see, but it's cool when you do."? He said the horn players wear
whatever they want, and they opted for lingerie.


Now, I'm not sure it means it was Slash's idea FOR the horn section...only that it was his idea for an all female horn section.

Or it could be a different article, but it's the one I remembered carrying the quote.

Edit:

Here's more, from the same source, talking about an interview Axl did with Hit Parader claiming that Slash got the ensemble together, too.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.rock-n-roll.metal.gnr/browse_thread/thread/fb97c9687ce44516/cdffc3dc4a99d72f?lnk=st&q=Slash+horn+section&rnum=3#cdffc3dc4a99d72f

"Ignatius Anthony Mascarenhas Jr.   Dec 7 1999, 4:00 am     show options

Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.gnr
From: "Ignatius Anthony Mascarenhas Jr." <i...@virginia.edu> - Find messages by this author 
Date: 1999/12/07
Subject: Re: Dear Axl
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That's a fact.  Axl sais in an interview, i think for hit parader. "Slash
got this awesome enseble together for the whole band, i love it"..or
somethign to that effect. "

So maybe that Hit Parader interview is also what is being referenced.

There may be more out there, but it's what I found after a quick google groups (dejanews) search.

I know he played with them at the Stones shows in 1989 and on the albums.



/jarmo

Yeah, checked gnrontour and saw it was, by the looks of things, for the '89 shows.

No, it's not specific on the who's original idea it was but it's still show's it obviously had Slash's backing.? I've always heard it was Axl's idea (horns/back up singers) and Slash's responsibility to find the players.?

As I've said multple times in the past, it's on all of them.?


Great find Pilferk, well done. : ok:

It's me again.

As you know when I see something that makes no sense to me, I find it interesting.


This is from an interview with Slash in Vintage Guitar, November 2005 issue. If you don't believe me, you can read the article here (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=22539.0).

I found this part weird:


I own the first Snakepit album so I knew Matt wrote something on it.

I checked the credits:

"What Do You Want To Be"
( Slash / Matt Sorum / Eric Dover )

"Soma City Ward"
( Slash / Matt Sorum / Eric Dover )

"Lower"
( Slash / Matt Sorum / Eric Dover )

"Take It Away"
( Slash / Eric Dover / Matt Sorum )


I guess he forgot about that period?

I know it doesn't make him a liar. Just funny that he didn't remember it. I guess a lot of people don't remember that album either.... Especially now that "Contraband" became a hit album.




/jarmo

Well, all three of them, Matt, Slash, & Duff say that the Randy Castillo benefit concert was the first time they'd played together in 5 or 6 yrs, since Guns.  That's also not true.  The three of them played together at other times, as well, post Guns and pre VR.  There was Sundance, which was like 99 or 2000.  What about Matt's instructional drum video.  They jammed around together for that, too.  So, I've never understood why they keep saying this about the Randy Castillo benefit concert, when it's clearly not true.  So, they're all liars!!    :)   

in another interesting story, it puts the debate to rest about whether or not Matt wrote anything on the UYI albums, drum-wise.  According to Slash, he didn't.

I think in light of recent events, it would be great to have this moved to the GNR section where more people will see it and share their views. 

good god im glad theres people on my side here. im a big GNR fan and i love them all. theres many reasons the band broke up, what ever reason slash thinks of at the time he say's weather it be axls attitude or him being over controling or the drugs who knows but no one is lieing here just  blowing stuff out of puportion. axl goes nuts over stupid shit like this. but who knows if this is even true. mtv is the source but i dont belive it till he makes a statment or a vr member makes a statment. alot of what is in that article seem like bs to me.

Booker, I asked in another thread, WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE PAST 6 MONTHS?  Glad you are back among us.

Everyone always has a go at Slash, yet he is one of the main reasons we are all here.

Jarmo, I have always looked at that album too and it contradicts a lot of what those guys say.  They also say, "Dave is the best for Slash outside of Izzy."  Well, Gilby on IFOCS sounds good to me and Slash's playing is some of his best.  I think Gilby and Matt were good for that band writing wise as well.  Oh well.  Killer album though.  McKagen even cowrote a song.

you know why, that's because a band broke up and now you have a gnr that is completly different.. So people pick sides or have their favorite players.. it really is a shame they couldn't work everything out, if gnr was the band that rocked the world still the board would spend less time playing lawyer for their favs and spend more time on the important stuff like music.. So now you have so many people on the forum with different agendas,,,, I believe 99% is about music, it's just s shame we never get anything album wise,....

So you'll always have your more younger crowd that might be only or mostly into new gnr, so that's their fav, or the older crowd into the gnr that was famous.. All that happens is things get compared and mini arguments about who's gnr was better and what not..

I don't think slash is a liar anyway, I just doubt if he's expressing? his own attitude. I just regard him as the kind of person who is always telling the media what the public wants to hear.

I sometimes wonder did the years of substance abuse leave their mark. They don't show up on playing, but perhaps in other things - like memory?

Why is this topic even being brought up again?!?  It's old and it's pointless!!!!

In light of Axl's press release alleging that Slash came to his house.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Just because it's true in your case, doesn't mean you can make such generalizations. I know lots of people (me included) who have been fans since the early days, and still pay more interest in the new GNR, and then there's lots of young fans who say "GNR is dead without Slash" etc.

truer words have never been spoken.

I've got to say something cause I'm sick of reading your crap in the GnR section and now your coming here and doing it.

What makes Slash wrong and Axl right? Nothink you weren't there and you know shit about what happened.

i'm glad you are sick of my posts because i wouldn't want someone like you agreeing with them. that being said, slash has lied about gnr multiple times, i'm not gonna even bother digging up the quotes. just read this thread for fuck's sake. stop defending a liar, and for your information i was linked to this thread and told to post in it in the gnr section. fuck you you pathetic bitch.

dig up the quotes...if u have prove then surely u should present that proof b4 throwing false accusations & slandering a nice man who was part of a band that we all loved so go f urself u lil prick!

This will be tolerated because he is an Axl worshipper...

From May 2006 issue of classic rock:

'It was Slash who had been mainly responsible for putting together the Guns N' Roses big band. "Around the time Gilby joined I was looking for someone to fill out songs like November Rain and get them to sound more like the reocrd," he said in a TV interview.
"Axl really got into that idea too. I didn't want anything corny like three guys in tuxedos all moving in unison, so I got some chicks to do it. But that hasn't changed the way we play," he added. "It's as chaotic as it's always been."'

From Behind The Music 2004:

Slash: "November Rain sucked. What was with the horns?"

Haha guess not he's banned now  :hihi:

I stand corrected.

I've been thinking about these "slash the liar" claims people make and feel the need to join the frey:

I think before anyone calls slash a liar they should consider the following factors:

1. Some of the printed quotes will be out of context / made up by the journalists (obviously this doesn't apply to audio/video  interviews etc)

2. He admits himself to having abused substances in the past which may have altered his memory/perception of an event thus creating an inconsistancy.

3. He may have made mistakes in interviews by virtue of the fact that many of the events he is asked about relate to situations and events that are now a long time ago.

4. Sometimes its a matter of perspective. Its common for people to have conversations without a true meeting of the minds. So like Slash may consider that something was clear or said, and maybe someone else around thought it went down slightly different. You find this a lot with witnesses to events and things - they will often slighlty contradict each other about how something went down and who said what. its not they they lie, some things are a matter of interpretation and perspective.

5. Some of these things - like the reason for leaving GNR etc - are most likely complex. You know like who do people get a divorse - sometimes theres one reason - but sometimes its a host of reasons.  He gets asked the same stuff day in day out in interviews and has only a short time to get an answer out and return to the real subject matter of his press apperance (like for VR or something) - so its likley that if the true answer is hard to express in words (cos its  emotional) or like would take 30 mins to talk out or something - he'd just summarise it down a lot. And when summarising its likely on different days you'd have different feelings about which are the important parts to tell etc.

Anyway...so in short I think it seems a bit drastic to insult the guy like that.

At the risk of being slightly off topic - I also want to add - that it frustrates me no end the way the GNR fan base has become polarised into this Axl vs Slash war.

I personally think Slash is one of the best guitarists of all time, in terms of composition of his solos, the emotive way he plays, his dynamic stage presence, I could go on and on. He is the reason I myself took up guitar.

But does this mean I think Axl sucks? Hell no....I think he is one of the best front men of all time, the complex and interesting lyrics, amazing voice, amazing stage presence.

The bottom line is both those guys are pure rock and roll - and just because they can't get on anymore, and now express their creative talents in different outlets - doesn't mean that either of them has to be wrong or right or that any of them suck.

Its the same with the new vs old band stuff. To me the old band is clearly one of the best bands of all time - rock history will remember them - and the records will live on when they're all dead. However does this mean that the new band suck? Not in my mind - from the leaks - and the new songs we saw live - it seems that the new band have a huge amount of potential to release a truely great album in CD. In order to accept one as great we dont have to bash the other one, they can co-exist as excellent.

Sorry for the rant..but I just get sick of all this negative energy in the GNR/VR fan base - be it Axl Bashing, Slash Bashing, VR basing, GNR lineup bashing etc etc...but yeah - I dont think slash is a liar....

On the Eddie Trunk radio interview last week Axl said that UYI was basically Slash and him taking over the band and Izzy in his own little drug world. Well Izzy was clean since '89 so that wasn't true either. Yet no one talks about that :P

I think with the Slash is a liar thing people are overreacting, monkeychow said it well in the ^ post

Great post, monkeychow? : ok: Couldn' t agree more.

you know what Slash is amazing and axl is amazing. but they just dont get along. so stop bitching we have GNR back now. at full force and the album will be great. so why are you fucking complaining about axls X band mates. stop being little fucking geeks on your computers and realize not only do we have a bad ass GNR we also have RnFnR Velvet Revolver. 2 bands. great music. SHUT THE FUCK UP.

i would reply, but monkeychow said it all

This topic is like beating a dead horse. I'm surprised it hasn't been locked already. No one hear is ever going to know the exact God honest truth about what really happened anyway.

thats the best post i've seen in a while.

it comes down to axl's word vs slash's word.. believe what you want

I can only speak for the people I know who are older, the people I met each night at hammerstein who were older, and people in general who are older.. They will be more partial to the gnr they grew up with, that is only normal.. The older sabbath fans would be more partial to ozzy then dio because they lived it.. many younger people didn't experience it so it's not the same, it's easier to love something you are seeing while growing up..

we have gnr back now, why cause axl is back with some hired people.. maybe that's gnr to you man... GNR isn't just some guys you find after they ruled the world, it's the guys who made it what they are today.. I think some people want gnr so badly they will take whatever it is as long as it's called gnr and axl fronts it... I'll always be looking for the reunion regardless of wether it happens or not.. It's like the current tour, afd mostly plus two cover and some new songs...  It's like a carbon copy of the old days, who wants replacements when you can have the people that actually created the music? No doubt they are talented musicians, ron thal is a great guy, it's just not the same seeing those guys playing other people's famous parts..

You got it... It is disgusting when you see these shows advertised as the legendary group Guns N Roses or Legendary rockers G n' R..  There is only one legend in the band..... Such a scam.

well axl is selling these venues and such by living off the past but acting like it's a return.. It's like the vmas wehn jimmy fallon intriduced them.. One of my favorite bands of all time" Please he was talking about the real gnr, he nevr had anything from the new.. afd illusions.. No sence, you either get it, or you live in the state that one man is a legandary rock band