Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Pat Robertson, host of Christian Broadcasting Network's The 700 Club and founder of the Christian Coalition of America, called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

From the August 22 broadcast of The 700 Club:

    ROBERTSON: There was a popular coup that overthrew him [Chavez]. And what did the United States State Department do about it? Virtually nothing. And as a result, within about 48 hours that coup was broken; Chavez was back in power, but we had a chance to move in. He has destroyed the Venezuelan economy, and he's going to make that a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent.

    You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war. And I don't think any oil shipments will stop. But this man is a terrific danger and the United ... This is in our sphere of influence, so we can't let this happen. We have the Monroe Doctrine, we have other doctrines that we have announced. And without question, this is a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us very badly. We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

he lives 15 min. away from me haha.  700 club I drive past every week.

and i saw on the Daily Show that some christian guy on tv was like praying for a vacancy on the supreme court and then recently for another ... that was funny (Colbert rocks !!)  ;D

Stephen Colbert, our Senior Christianism and Religion Analyst... lol

Robertson has made controversial statements in the past. In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."

ahah :)

I know im gonna get burned on this but my view point is: let a neighbouring country run it as they see fit and dont involve yourself unless you and your people are directly endangered. With that bieng said, jut let Chavez run the country and unless he directly declares war or attacks America or one of her allies ignore him. Becides, it would hurt America's rep even more if they invaded (I'm speculating) Venezuela to overthrow a "communist threat."

Not going to get burned from me.? Sounds like pretty sound foreign policy.

EDITED: to agree with the caveats of WAT-EVER

there is a difference between getting involved "physically" and just being concerned.
i think we should all be concerned abouyt anyting that happen in the world.
like iraq was a big concern.
but then, there's a difference between sending troops in a hurry to fight and thinking about a good diplomatic solution.*
waiting till it's too late is a bad solution too.

haha, yea he was praying for God to pick one off so a seat could open up!

It was great watching some asshole pray for that. He had his eyes closed real hard and was just praying away....

Might as well asked for a bimmer while he was at it! Dumbass!  :no:

 ???? ???? ???

But wait!? I'm CONFUSED!? I thought that christians were supposed to be loving, caring individuals, not hate mongers.

 :nervous:

My whole perception of christianity is blown to bits.

(sarcasm)

Perhaps we should assasinate Pat Robertson.? Just a thought.

Agree with you, sometimes those kind of pricks can make the christians people look really bad.  :no:

Robertson is a certifiable kook, to use a technical term.

If Robertson got up tomorrow, looked out his window, and said the sky was blue, I'd know damn well that some odd atmospheric event had turned the sky purple with pink polka dots.

Robertson is a great example that there are extremists in all faiths.....and they're NEVER a good thing.

Robertson is a prime example of abuse of religion.

Robertson is no different from binLaden.  They both hide behind their religion and make assumptions that they think are universal in appeal.  If Pat were alive in the 1800s he would have been explaining that slavery was OK because it says so in the Bible, that women should be at home, killing Indians is God's will.  This man is dangerous because so many idiots, including the one in the White House buy this shit!  The new target is Evolution versus Intelligent Design.  Can you say Christian Taliban!

Leviticus 18.22
"No man is to have sexual relations with another man, God hates that."

Corinthians (2) 6.14

"Don not try to work together as equals with unbelivers, for it can not be done. How can right and wrong be partners?How can light amd darkness live together "

---

What the hell gave you the idea we were loving?  :hihi:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

From the Gnostic Gospels:

pilferk (1) 3:16

For pilferk shall not haveth to work upon the Sabbath day, nor shall he have to work any other day of creation, until the dark end of all days.? However, pilferk shall receiveth full compensation as if he had worked all days of creation, including the Sabbath, and shall recieve on every other Sabbath a large pig, two chickens, and one calf.? Sed pig will not be higher at the withers than 3 Swallows might span, sed chickens will not lay less eggs than the village idiot must count, and sed calf must not be enrobed in gristle, but should, instead, be the finest of the herd.? ? Thus, the creator will be pleased.

haha, dang...why didn't I think of that?  :hihi:

CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuela's vice president accused religious broadcaster Pat Robertson on Tuesday of making "terrorist statements" by suggesting that American agents assassinate President Hugo Chavez.

Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said Venezuela was studying its legal options, adding that how Washington responds to Robertson's comments would put its anti-terrorism policy to the test.

"The ball is in the U.S. court, after this criminal statement by a citizen of that country," Rangel told reporters. "It's huge hypocrisy to maintain this discourse against terrorism and at the same time, in the heart of that country, there are entirely terrorist statements like those."

The State Department distanced itself from Robertson's comments.

"We do not share his view, and his comments are inappropriate," spokesman Sean McCormack said.

There was no immediate comment from Chavez, who was winding up an official visit to Cuba on Tuesday. Scores of journalists awaited Chavez at the airport, where he was to board a plane for a trip to Jamaica to discuss a Venezuela initiative to supply petroleum to Caribbean countries under favorable financial terms.

On Monday, Robertson said on the Christian Broadcast Network's "The 700 Club": "We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability."

"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

Chavez has emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of
President Bush, accusing the United States of conspiring to topple his government and possibly backing plots to assassinate him. U.S. officials have called the accusations ridiculous.

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson said. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... and I don't think any oil shipments will stop."

Rangel called Robertson "a man who seems to have quite a bit of influence in that country," adding sarcastically that his words were "very Christian."

The comments "reveal that religious fundamentalism is one of the great problems facing humanity in these times," Rangel said.

Robertson's remarks appear likely to further stoke tensions between Washington and Caracas. Chavez has repeatedly claimed that American officials are plotting to oust or kill him ? charges U.S. officials have denied.

The United States is the top buyer of Venezuelan crude, but Chavez has made it clear he wants to decrease the country's dependence on the U.S. market by finding other buyers.

Chavez has survived a brief 2002 coup, a devastating two-month strike that ended in early 2003 and recall referendum in 2004. The former army paratroop commander, a close ally of Cuban leader
Fidel Castro, is up for re-election next year, and polls suggest he is the favorite.

Robertson is an idiot. Ever see his facial expresion when he prays? It looks like he is trying to take a shit. Maybe that explains why he`s so full of it. Its constipation!

God is Mean.  Here are just SOME things that god has said "according to the bible" that kinda scare me.

1) God says that anyone who eats fat should be cut off from his people. Leviticus 7:23 "Say to the Israelites: 'Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats. you must not eat it. Anyone who eats the fat of an animal must be cut off from his people.

2) A man cannot "discharge" form his "member" 'When any man has a bodily discharge from his member, the discharge is unclean 'Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean. Anyone who touches his bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
  But this is the BEST part:  'If the man with the discharge spits on someone who is clean, that person must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

3) Dont be gay, no sex with animals!!! : 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. 

This is What happens if you do any of the above: 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

4) DONT HAVE TATTOOS!!   'Do not put tattoo marks on yourselves."   (Well I guess Slash is a Sinner!?!)

Now Here are some Punishments for SIN

a.  'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
b.  'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
c.  If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
d.  'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.  (Oh come on WHAT DID THE ANIMAL DO?! - except for be VERY VERY sexual  :-*)
e. If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
f. 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

There is SOOO much, all in Leviticus From what god DOSENT WANT offered to him, to how many reasons there are for the people to stone you, and not be in trouble!!!  God isn't nice.  And you know what, everyone has permission to stone me now because, " 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death"

So long cruel world!!!!  :peace:

God of the old testament is fake. Go check the God of the new Testament and you'll see there is huge diffrence. It's not only Leviticon, the whole old testament ships water. It's a typical jewish history book with a lot advices for the jewish way of life.

Well actually, God isnt about do's and dont's.  And He does NOT say that you have to obey that in order for Him to love you and have a relationship.  God isnt looking for perfect people, He is looking for people who are hungry for Him.  It's not based on rituals, or commands, it's based on love, through which your love for Him results in your own CHOICE to live a life towards Him and a life of not settling for sin, and His love in return blesses you for that.  God did not create sin, people act like He creates all the bad things in this world, sin comes with consequence because the enemy get pleasure in our pain, bad things happen from sin and the reason why God says to not do sin is to protect us from the consequence, and dont feast with the enemy, because the enemy decieves you into thinking he's the good but he stabs you in the back.  Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship.  And you have the choice to sin or not, and God doesnt hold your sins against you, and He does not force you to not sin in order for Him to love or bless you.

Exactly, there is a HUGE difference.  The reason in that, is because the old testament represents the old way of life, but the new testement is exactly what it says, it's new life, Jesus came in and brought newness of Life.  It's about rebirth.  The old testement holds great and amazing teachings, but the walk to live is in the new testement.  The old way was crucified on the cross with Jesus, and the new way was risen from the grave with Him, it's an example of life. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.  He didnt change by something new happening, it was the plan all along, it just hadnt happened yet.

Both of those gods (new and old testament) suck ass. 

I prefer to worship Axl.   :hihi:

Amen to that  :peace:  :hihi:

Funny you say that....

http://www.funnystrange.com/quiz/

I was late for this one ... I will just react to the article posted  ;D

Wasn't chavez elected ? Is not that way a democratic country is supposed to work ?

Read the New Testament I dare you


There's lots more and worse than this but I'm not reading the bible again to find any

God is the same in all the scriptures: vengeful, not that there's anything wrong with that
 
:smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

No... Not when it's not pleasing mr. Robertson.


And about God... I think anyone who takes bible, or any holy book of their religion word for word, should think again. You know I'm too stupid to think of a grand theory myself, so I just basically listen to different sources and make up my mind based on them. Here are some thoughts/quotes that are pretty close to mine:

"If you know the history of the bible, and how it was written in these almost dead languages, and then translated and then retranslated into other languages and then retranslated by monarcs (sp?) based on their whims... and all this shit and people interpret it in their own way... and you sit there, and after all this shit, and realise that the bible was written thousands of years ago by people, when people were even dumber, than we are today.. Think about that. Go outside, and wait 'till the bars empty out. Fucking go home - watch FOX-tv... and realise that the bible was written by people who are even dumber than all of these motherfuckers... that's the bible you're reading and has been read to you for generations. It's insane to believe in that shit..."

Dont get me started.  Read the new testement?  I live it.
And I can list a million verses that speak of His love and His promise of no condeming.  I dont understand why you point that verse out like it's unprofoundly wrong, you dont udnerstand why it was said, and what the action is to be done after that verse, it doesnt speak of hate or condemnation and enemies between believers and non-believers, that's just how you are choosing to look at it.

Great post I actually have the same opinion as you do  : ok:
The world is base in choice, wether they're good or bad.

Good point. Why hath he forsaken us? :(

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

Bridge, considering that Psalms is in the OT I highly doubt your factual knowledge about what God says about death in the NT. 

Don't let a jackass like Pat Robertson influence your views on religion.  He does not speak for the majority of Christians.

Jesus was the original rebel, he was hated by the church establishment and he did not have many nice things to say about them.  I would speculate that Robertson would be somebody that Jesus would be fighting against/

Now, Mr. Robertson is advocating the kidnapping of Chavez...

WASHINGTON - Conservative U.S. evangelist Pat Robertson, who called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, said on Wednesday he was misinterpreted and there were a number of ways to "take him out" including kidnapping. "I said our special forces could take him out. Take him out could be a number of things including kidnapping," Robertson said on his "The 700 Club" television program. "There are a number of ways of taking out a dictator from power besides killing him. I was misinterpreted," Robertson added.



I realize that there are extremists to everything... some people are willing to take just about anything too far, as is the case with Mr. Robertson. 

I don't allow these so called christians affect my viewpoint of christianity.  I let my own bad experiences as a former christian, and my own bad experiences with christians affect my viewpoint of christianity.  I think that most religion is a farce... not slamming any particular religion, I am equally disenchanted with all of them.

Acutally, He didnt create sin.  He created Lucifer, who BY CHOICE created and lived in sin, there for he was kicked out of Heaven.  Adam and Eve BY CHOICE sinned and that is why by human nature we sin.  Our actions arent pre-destined, they are by our own free will of choice- not a pre-planned action God created for you, same with the devil, God did not pre-destine him to create or sin, he chose to do that himself.  The reason why God doesnt do do away with sin, is because He is letting us have our own free choice.  I mean wouldnt you hate it if you had a parent who forced you and told what to do and what not to do, well He's not like that, He gives us a choice, and He wants to see who really makes a sacrifice to follow Him not just following Him because He "controls and demands it".  God doesnt need evil to make Him look good.  And how are you so 100% sure on how things work and dont work.  Why is not possible that things just cant create?  Things work different in Heaven then they do on earth, on earth we only can concieve the idea that there is a start and finish and things are products of previous things, well sin wasnt a product of a previous thing or thought, it was just created.  And dont pin everyone into religion.  Religion is was screws up and gives God a bad a name, and dont pin me as a religious person, religion is the enemy.  Jesus isnt a religion, He's a relationship, and you arent a christian by going to church and knowing bible facts, it's about developing and growing in relationship with Jesus.  You're right in saying it's man's egotistical way, religious people go on power trips and they distort the word of God and that's why people dont know the truth, religion is man made, and following God is not following man's made rules of the church and their take on the bible.

God is not a puppet master. He doesn't make people do what they don't want to do. We were all given free will and strong minds.

People made the world evil, not God. I guess it's just easier for some people to blame God, because they're irresponsible and selfish.
 

Actually Rocket Queen, I'm going to have to disagree with ?you. ?You can't create ?something without there being a flipside. ?You can't have light without dark, otherwise the light means nothing. ?You can't be good without having created the essence of evil. ?

To quote the bible: ?Isaiah 45:7 ~ "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Proverbs 16:4 ~ "The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day."

This christian god entity that christians believe in, if he is the creator of all, he then created evil as well as good. ?It doesn't follow that you would call him the creator of all, and then turn around and say... well he created everything except evil. ?it doesn't work that way. ?He can't be all knowing without having full knowledge that lucifer would turn and that man would sin.? Even if you are going to give full credit to Lucifer for the evil ways of the world, you must somewhere down the line acknowledge that the creator of all had something to do with Lucifer's creation, even the part that would one day give Lucifer the ambition to eventually turn against his own creator.? If this god is all knowing, he created lucifer knowing this was inevitable.?

It only follows naturally that for everything that has been, there is also the polar of that thing. ? Which means, without darkness, who can truly know the light exists? ?Without evil, who is to know what good is? ?Without truth, how is one to discern a ?falsehood?

Yeah, Pat Robertson is the real problem.

Forget the fact that Chavez led a failed coup in which 18 people were killed.?

Forget the fact that he aids the FARC communist terrorist organization.

Forget the fact that after he was elected, he packed Venezuela's electoral council to ensure that he will continue to win elections "democratically" in the future. He's now a dictator for all intensive purposes.

Forget the fact that Chavez has demolished freedom of the press in Venezuela.

But no, that's no big deal. No one seems to care about that. In fact, the left considers him a hero because he curses America every chance he gets. No! The real problem is that a Christian had the gaul to say something bad about a communist. Those Christians should learn to keep their mouths shut and march to the beat of the new Marxist world order. Lest they be ripped to shreds by the Marxist media of the world.

I don't agree that Chavez should be assassinated, and I don't like Pat Robertson much, but I believe that he has the right top say it. He should not have had to apologize.

The first amendment is dead! Only dirty smelly hippy communists have freedom of speech these days.

Yeah, Pat Robertson is the real problem.

So, its bad if OBL says this...but if Robertson calls for the same action, we should condone it?

This man is a buddy of Bush and claims to be a Christian, yet he spews this on the air?

Freedom of speech sure......and also freedom of speech to say I don't like what he is saying.

Not to mention is is pissing off a country that supplies us with 15% of our oil and has already threatened to cut it off from us because of our actions abroad. Do you have any idea of what will happen to this economy is even 10% of our oil supply is cut off?

you can cut my words down by down, it doesnt make you right.  yes i do KNOW Jesus.  If He walked on the street, as He's in my heart, as He's in my life changing it daily, I feel and see Him through His actions and words He puts in my life and heart.  He took me out of a psychotic world my mind created and a dark place I built myself and did a 180 on my life the moment I made the decision to hand my life into His hands, I didnt even know what I was doing or asking for, I just prayed in the spirit and watched God do His thing and take my life and turn it into the most glorious thing beyond words, that life He promised we were born to live.  You didnt prove anything and I didnt contradict myself.  He isnt a religion and Jesus Himself talks of that.  You havent experienced it, so you cant say it's not true, until you have a true encounter with Jesus working into your heart and into your life- a true revelation, then you cant say it's not real because I can give thousands of people including myself the works and miracles He has done and glory He has promised, I watched it, Ive seen it, Ive witnessed it, Ive felt it, Ive lived it, Ive experienced it, and all of that daily and growing more everyday.  You have a huge attitude towards me and all because you dont agree with me, which is very close minded.  No points what so ever have proven close to truth of the remarks that were made towards me and my God.  Im not replying back in "defense", Im clearing stating that I know what I speak is truth, because I first hand live it. This world is going to change, and I guarentee you wont be saying these same words in years to come, I say that in Godly confidence and belief, and Im not expecting at all for you to believe that, and I know you will roll your eyes, but Im not.  And I believe more in people then they believe in themselves, and I believe a lot for your life.

These people say the same shit as terrorists do. Then proclaim we are fighting terror...gimmie a break!

(http://tinypic.com/b4vq1c.jpg)

You know ... the sad thing is that Pat Roberston got more grief from the Marxist media for a single rash statement than OBL (or Hamas or Hezbolah for that matter) get for incessant polemicizing against the west and Israel.


If Chavez cuts off oil from the US, NOTHING would happen. Oil is a tangible good that is traded on the world market. Venezuela would still need to sell the oil which they produce because their economy would suffer a lot more from such a move. So what they won't sell to the US, they'll have to sell to other countries. As a result, those countries would need to buy less oil from the Middle East, and therefore the Middle East will have more to sell to the US, so the worldwide supply and demand balance would remain the same, hence, except for the geographical flow of oil, very little would change.

How many buildings have the 700 Club bombed? How many "infidel" throats have they slit? How many car bombs have they detonated?

Your extreme statements make you no different than they are. You're like that Pat Robertson of the looney left :rofl: :rofl:

Sure buddy. The 5% drop in oil in the 70's caused an almost 400% markup.

Ever heard of speculation? That (pushed by the war) is what is causing you to pull more money out of your wallet each time you fill the tank. Chavez even mentioning this can cause the price of crude to rise up.

You forgot the part where the Bush administration supported the 2002 coup in which members of the Venezuelan military overthrew Hugo Chavez's democratically elected government. Forgot to mention that.....

Today the speculation was even wilder because insurgents had stopped oil flow for a while today. Just that act caused another spike up in pricing. One attack, that slowed the production by 50% today in one part of the world drove our price up and if they attack again, will probably swing it up 70-75 barrel.

You may think he gets a bashing, but it is rightfully deserved. We (America, and this is one of Bush's buddies here) stand out there and tell the entire world how pure we are, yet not living the standard we ask the world to adhere to. We "fight terror" in countries that don't invade us, then turn around and make terror-like remarks. That is what people are upset about.


Well it was a Christian that committed the worst act of terror (here in America) before Osama. And that was a domestic terrorist at that. Gee wonder who that guy watched on tv and looked up to?

What extreme statements? That I condeme a jerk, who calls himself a man of god, for condoning murder? Yea, sure that is just like Pat Robertson..." ok....

When "insurgents" disrupt the flow of oil by blowing up a pipeline, it results in lower supply, that's why price rises. When Hugo Chavez doesn't want to sell his oil to the US, he is merely redirecting the flow of supply, but it remains the same globally. There might be a slight fluctuation because of speculation, but nothing long term. If you can't understand this, take a basic economics course.


The extreme statements likening Pat Robertson to a terrorist. He may say some over the top things, but he hasn't killed anyone, and even apologized for his comment.

And now you can add to this the implication that Pat Robertson caused Tim McVeigh to commit an act of terror. Prove that, or shut up.

And also the implication that Tim McVeigh is a Christian. That's just another anti-Christian media lie: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/maggiegallagher/printmg20021028.shtml
He was a professed agnostic

Everyone has the potential to do evil things. Whether or not God created evil, I don't know.
I have more questions than answers in this life, but I don't want to live my life being bitter. It makes me feel good to believe in God, and all the blessings in life. There's a flipside to everything. But I think that we do the flipping, and it's up to us to decide which side is the best.

I never force my beliefs on anyone. Religion and faith is a personal endeavor.

On topic:

Pat Robertson was out of line. His words were harsh and unprofessional. Because he is a public figure, he has the potential to influence his audience.

Yes, actually, I have experienced that.?

I was once a christian, taught sunday school and I believed every word I heard preached to me by my pastor, and believed every word I taught to the young minds in my sunday school classes.? ?

I experienced the same feelings much like you describe in the exerpt from your post above.

Then... I read the bible.? I mean, actually read it.? With an open mind, with critical thinking skills, and I realized how full of lies and inconsistencies it actually is.? And I reflected long and hard on the traditions of christianity, the oppressive nature of christianity, and I realized that I could no longer subscribe to this doctrine as the basis of my belief system.?

And that's why I left the faith.?

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
It's very closed minded not to agree with you?? So... can I turn that around on you and say, it's very close minded of you not to agree with me?? Or is this one of those hypocritical things on which christians have cornered the market?

And... I don't have an attitude against you, I have an attitude against oppressive religions... all of them... not just christianity.


Actually, you're clearly stating what you believe.? That's cool... believe what you choose.? but it isn't truth.? You can neither prove or disprove the existence of god.? It's all based on faith.? You live nothing, except your own life, and your own life serves as proof for nothing except for you, and it is not based in the factual, but in the belief.? I can say that I believe that there are spirits in the colors that I paint, and that they speak to me, and that I know this to be the truth because I live it first hand, but that doesn't make it any more true than what you are 'clearly stating.' ?

On Topic:? I think that Chavez should call for the assisination of Pat Robertson.? Or... at least, his kidnapping.? ?:hihi:

So you were able to experience Jesus, meaning you acknowledge His existence, but because of perceived inconsistencies in the Bible and because you felt that His rules were too oppressive, you chose to denounce Him?

I can understand not believing that He was God in the first place, but I don't see what denouncing Him because you don't like His rules accomplishes?

And if you no longer believe in Him because of inconsistencies in the Bible, what was it that you had experienced?

When "insurgents" disrupt the flow of oil by blowing up a pipeline, it results in lower supply, that's why price rises. When Hugo Chavez doesn't want to sell his oil to the US, he is merely redirecting the flow of supply, but it remains the same globally. There might be a slight fluctuation because of speculation, but nothing long term. If you can't understand this, take a basic economics course.

 The problem is not solved getting oil from Saudi if S America cuts us off..... the problem is we are close to maxing out our supplies to the point that any downward movement by anyone of these countries (In this case S America) in terms of supply to us will be disruptive financially! You do read don't you? We can't keep up with demand anymore.


The extreme statements likening Pat Robertson to a terrorist. He may say some over the top things, but he hasn't killed anyone, and even apologized for his comment.

You are twisting my words around. I just told you why I don't like him. He is a hypocrite and friend of the right, saying things like this do not help us. His statements are parallel to statements made by Osama yes, and if you don't like that comparison...too bad.

"Making a terroristic threat" is a violation of federal law, if done using the airwaves. It comes under the jurisdiction of the FBI. I'm sure we can all be assured that Bush has directed them to pursue a vigourous prosecution as we speak!

And now you can add to this the implication that Pat Robertson caused Tim McVeigh to commit an act of terror. Prove that, or shut up.

Strawman alert!

Again you twist my words around. I am saying this guy is a dangerous man to claim to be Christian and put words like this over the air waves. There are other nutballs WHO WILL take action and can only be motivated when they hear something like this.

And also the implication that Tim McVeigh is a Christian. That's just another anti-Christian media lie

Haha!! LOOK! A conservative website claiming McVeigh was not a Christian...how suprising! You guys crack me up..... :hihi:

McVeigh, was in fact a member of screwball Christian group. He is as much a Christian as Osama is a Muslim.

Lucifer is described as the most perfect of Gods creations in the bible, so you should all worship him

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

Pat Robertson represents the extreme right that scares me. A christian that advocates taking someone out by assasination is going against what Christianity stands for. Then again, most Televangelists do. ( Jimmy Swaggart Sex Scandal, Oral Robers asking for money or God will kill him, Jim Baker PTL sex scandal etc)

The whole burning in hell for eternity thing kinda puts a damper on that for me. At least thats what they tell me.

Why would you burn in hell for worshiping Satan?

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

If you worship Satan, you get to meet him in hell after you die. He`s got this fire and brimstone fetish and there`s no loyalty with the guy. He`s like a politician, he`ll tell you something and go back on his word and do something else. There`s no trust there.

PopMetal: ?I realize that, before even explaining this to you, you and other christians will probably fail to understand what I will attempt to explain -- simply because you 'can't' because what I am about to explain goes against the grain of your belief. ?A belief is a difficult thing to shake in a person, because it goes to the core of who they are. ?To change that core requires a monumental event, something that happens within themselves, NOT words on a computer screen. ?But... I will explain it, to the best of my ability, although I do realize that I'm going to be banging my head against a wall at this point.

Prayer requires a great deal of focus... a huge amount of mind power. ?The human mind is an extremely powerful thing, and can make things happen that we cannot even conceive. ? ?For a person who is at a very low place in their life, to open up their mind to ask for help from ?something that they may not even believe actually exists, takes a great deal of mind power. ?Once you've set that in motion, your mind can make ?things happen that are truly remarkable. ?THAT IS WHAT ?HAPPENED when I prayed when I was down and out and looking for a way. ?

How can I sit here now, and say with complete confidence that is what happened? ?Because, since discarding the faith, I've continued much of the same practice, but through spellcasting. ?I realize you are going to say spellcasting and prayer are two different things, I assure you, they are not. ?They are both the same thing. ?I know, because I've done both... Actually, I've spellcasted as a wiccan, which is the same thing, and I have since spellcasted since discarding wicca, and they are all the same thing. ?Basically, the only thing that changes is the god/goddess/entity you address in your envocation.

What came to me when I believed was all that my mind could handle at the moment... I was so lost and distraught that I could not fathom that my mind would have been able to accomplish greatness, but I could handle the idea that someone up there was watching out for me, so that is what my life adopted, my life started to turn around for the better, and back then, if anyone had told me what I am telling you now, I would have simply shook my head and said something like, "you don't know, because you can't possibly have felt what I felt." ?Yes... much like you're doing there. ? :yes:

OK... finished banging my head against the wall for now.?

Yeah, look how Satan just used Sadam in the South Park movie.  Poor Sadam, he was in love and Satan just used him.  Proof of his lack of loyalty!

That Satan will fuck anything with a pulse....

I wasn't alluding to you being bitter. I was saying that I have more questions than answers, and there's a lot that I don't understand, but I'm not going to be bitter about it. It wasn't an attack on you. I'm no one to judge anyone.

Spoken like a true follower of Christianity........

Oh God!!! Talk about it!!!  ::) Damn Satan. 

Yea, but he's got a great bod..... :hihi:

(http://tinypic.com/b5qvbb.gif)

Mmmm... and Hes a DEVIL in the bed ( :hihi: Pun intended )

You're the one who should try reading. You clearly didn't read my explanation as to why global supply and demand would remain the same if Chavez refuses to sell his oil to the US. The only way he can make a significant change in the price of oil is if he refuses to sell it to everone. That would hurt not just the US, but the entire world, and most of all Venezuela, which does not have anything in the way of a diversified economy and would completely croak without oil money. Either you didn't read what I wrote, or you don't understand the simple concept of global supply and demand.


I am twisting your words? Did you not liken him to a terrorist? That's all I said, and you just did it again, so thanks for proving my point.


You just hate freedom of speech. The New York Times is a dangerous organization that is preaching hate against the US throughout the world, but I do believe they have a right to print the garbage they print.

And you wanna talk about Christian hypocrisy? What about you lefties? You believe that only you have the right to freedom of speech.


If you actually take the time to READ what the web site said, you would realize how ridiculous the notion that he's a Christian is. Just because the web site is conservative doesn't make it wrong. They backed it up with an overwhelming amount of evidence. You only demonstrate how boneheaded you are by maintaining that McVeigh is Christian. It shows that you're just as close minded as extremist like Pat Robertson. The only difference between him and you is that he's on the right and you're on the left.

Why do you hate Christians so much that you feel compelled to use false accusations like these to defame them?

If jousting with shadows and strawmen is your thing, then go for it with somebody else.

I am tired of repeating myself to somebody who is stuck on stupid...

I love how you can go from joking about Satans hot body - to that.      :hihi:

This guy is a darling of the right, he was just on Hannity last week. Now everybody is trying to distance themselves from his comment.

Here are some more good ones:

"Homosexuals want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-18-95

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-08-92

"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were Satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go together."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-21-93

NOW is saying that in order to be a woman, you've got to be a lesbian."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 12-03-97

Yea...it took me a long time to learn how to be an asshole.....

All you really have to do is put in the work....... :hihi:

Okay. I'm completely comfortable with the argument I made. At least I admit that I'm wrong when I'm wrong and I don't falsely accuse others of twisting my words or jousting with strawmen because I can't come up with a real defense.

You're My Idol  :D Please SLC teach me how to do that!!

 :hihi:

Robertson is flat out lying there, either that or he doesn't know his facts.  probably both.  Hitler was a religious extremist himself.  anyone not white protestant was persecuted alongside the jews.  homosexuals were also murdered in camps and the ovens. 

What I said was not a contradiction, me saying I know how things work and you dont is not a contradiction, even though that's not what I entirely meant, I dont mean it to sound that you arent smart and dont know anything. ?Being close minded isnt disagreeing, you have a right to disagree, but when you give attitude and have a condescending tone towards the beilef you dont have- then that is close minded. ?Im sorry that I thought you had attitude (I didnt think you had one because I got defensive and "scared everyones out to get the christians", I could care less, it just seemed that way by the way you proclaim im WRONG and cut up my words instead of only building up your own) and I can promise that I havent and dont have attitude towards you as well, but it does seem to me that you are condesceding. ?And very hipocritcal, because you say that it's self righteous for me to call you wrong, yet you have sit there and tell me Im wrong, saying that my way isnt right or truth. ?I never said your way was wrong, I only said my way was right, I focus and word into my belief only, not telling someone else they are wrong. ?Me saying that I am right, doesnt nessicarily mean I am calling others wrong, because Im not looking at others, Im only looking at myself. ?Im not going to look at others, because who am I to look at them? ?Who am I to judge or condem? ? Cutting my words up, and telling me Im wrong and my belief that Im right and know that Jesus is truth, is putting judgement on my beliefs and condemnation, who are you to tell me that what I think is truth isnt? And so what if I did that to you, dont pull an excuse "well she did it first", because that doesnt make either or right. I in no way have been close minded to the un believers, I disagree, but I have not been rude or mean. ?Having a true experience with Jesus, is more than beileving in Him and following His word and going to church, I used to do that all my life and never had a 'true' experience until 2 years ago, once you have a true experience- you never turn back, it's 100% impossible, there's a difference between believing in Him and being experienced and baptized in the Holy Spirit by Him. ?I cant change your mind on how you feel or what you believe, that's why Im not gonna preach it or say half the stuff I want to, and when my words were cut down sentence by sentence I didnt retailiate back to prove that I was right because I cant change your mind and I dont owe you anything. ?Im sorry that you had a bad experience, and I dont understand how you can get such a book of answers, life, and love, and turn it into something bad. ?And Im not saying that to look down on your point of view, becaues I totally understand. ?But to rule it out, and refuse to look it at no more in a different view, to at least try and get curious on changing your perspective, I dont understand. ?What do you have lose? ?Honestly. ?Your same belief system you have now, your same exact life style, your entire world you have right now will have gone no where, and you wont lose, if Im wrong about all I have said then your same life will be there where you left it and you will have lost nothing, but if Im right about this, then your entire world can change for an unbelievably amazing turn for blessing and high, breakthroughs and answers and a future you never knew you could have. ?If Im wrong about that, everything you hold today will still be there. ?So why not. ?You dont my story either, you dont know what I have been through, I dont know yours either. ?I dont know the hundreds of peoples stories, who I witness every week change their lives, last night watching people litteraly fall to the ground because the Holy Spirit entered them healing them, all I know is I can speak about Life and I can speak of an amazing way. I cant change how you feel, and Im sorry for however you feel about me, but I will promise you that no matter how much you dont beileve it, that God is real, He is love, and He thinks of you in no bad way, He hates the sin- not the sinner, He couldnt be in more love with you, He doesnt want you to change, He just wants you to allow Him to be in your life so He can see to it that you live the life you were born for. ? I dont want to continue back and forth you pointing out things of why you think that's wrong, who cares, just look at it- disagree, and move on. ?I never took your words, and quote you, saying "and that's EXACTLY why nonbelievers are this and that, and they are wrong, and this is why blah blah blah". ?Dont focus on the wrong part. ?

I guess you can say Hitler was religious extremist. But his religion was Fascism.

Here is an example of a contradiction in your post:


and, in the very same post, you also said:


Now, please explain to me how you AREN'T being condescending in the first example I have up there?? It ISN'T condescending for you to suggest that the things I have experienced in my life are 100% impossible for me to have experienced?? Or, perhaps it isn't condescending for you to assume that I was less of a christian because you obviously have gone through some transformation that I had not gone through.? You don't know me, you don't know the life I led when I was a christian, nor do you know the life I lead now.? You have NO IDEA what I may or may not have experienced in my life, yet you sit there and tell me that it is 100% impossible for me to have experienced exactly what I have said I have experienced.? Then you said that you have not said I am wrong... but then, how is it you aren't saying I am wrong by stating that it's 100% impossible for me to have experienced what I experienced?

That is a contradiction.



 It is a contradiction, because you are being inconsistent within the same post.? You can't say that you aren't saying that I am wrong, only that you are right, and then turn around and say that my experiences are 100% impossible as I recollected them, because what you are saying is that I am wrong, and you are right, which is a DIRECT contradiction.

You can? continue to stand by your premise that you are not contradicting yourself, but I will continue to call a contradiction exactly what it is.? And... for clarity... in the course of argumentation and debate, it is necessary to break down another's words and statements, so that one can demonstrate the error in which they have been stated.? That's... the way it works.

I see what you're saying. I have not experienced Jesus, or any external power, on a personal level. I choose to be a Christian because it makes more sense to me to be a Christian than any other religion. I grew up in a Soviet bloc country where religion was banned, so it wasn't' something that was handed down to me. And I'm not an atheist because I believe that due to its complexity, life must have been created by some power that exists outside of our universe. It is virtually statistically impossible for proteins to have combined the way they have to form even a primitive bacteria by chance. Many scientists are reluctant to admit that because academia has been hijacked by atheist Marxists, and if you say something to that effect, you lose funding and become a pariah. Just look at the furor caused by the mere mention of Intelligent Design. But, in spite of all the attempts, no one has been able to show that spontaneous generation of life can occur. Note that I'm not saying that darwinian evolution does not occur. I just think that someone started the process and probably guided it along the way. That's where my belief comes from. But I think it's interesting how ever so often people pray to God when they are in a rut, but then denounce Him once they become better off. Maybe what you experienced was only an illusion that God helped you, or maybe you have been tricked you into thinking it was an illusion. I'm not saying it's one or the other, but just something to think about.

Since I'm sick today and in a bad mood I will continue to argue on this point.

 The price of oil is dependent on supply (as we have agreed on), and the problem becomes: where else are we going to get it? It is not just us bidding for it any more, it is the Chinese, India, etc, and every drop that goes on the global market is sold the minute it hits. Hence the high prices now. If anything cause total oil supply to be less than what it is, the Chinese have huge cash reserves to bid against us for what IS available, thereby driving the price up, and hurting this country's economy.

I think about that too, how people do do that, and I dont understand why.  They use God as a feeling, not a conviction.  They only come to Him when they want something, and get mad when He isnt there for them, but where are they for Him?

To paraphrase Nietsche, there is no original text, everything is interpretation. Hence everything is opinion. Some opinions are more widespread than others.

If you are going to hold the ten commandments as truth, then you must also hold slavery and murder as truths also? Since they are rampant in the old testament.

But you are still telling me that my beliefs are wrong, because yes in my belief I can say that I FACTUALLY and TRUTHFULLY by all the definitions out of man's dictionary say that I know Jesus, what the afterlife is and holds, and I can PROVE Him as He has proven and made Himself real to me. ?Yes, in your point of view, and in the world's point of view, I can see how you think it's not real proof or truth, but in MY BELIEFS it is, an who are you to tell me that my belief is wrong. ?I honestly 100% KNOW FOR FACT that my God is real, I have a living breathing Savior who is risen and alive and in my life daily and has shown and made Himself real to me through His actions, words, love, and miracles. ?He talks to me daily as I talk to Him, He provides breakthroughs and mircales for me and others I witness, I see Him move through other people's lives, I feel His presence that He makes real, and I feel and see His truth, in my beliefs that is fact, in my belief it is proof.

That's not called being contradictory, how you are looking at my words would be considered hypocrisy, not a contradiction. ?Because Im not telling you that your experiences are wrong by saying that something is 100% impossible, I never said that you werent a christian before, I never said that you werent a strong and powerful christian, I believe that you were, I believe that it's possible, but being a powerful big christian is something completely different than having an experience with Jesus where He works and moves through you to where you see what the purpose and meaning of life is which is to out of Love give your own life to Him with no asking to return it back, it's when His purpose becomes your purpose, where you live your life to do the things of God's purpose, that doesnt mean living holy and living sinless, it means getting Godly wisdom (which isnt knowing a bunch of facts, Godly wisdom is knowing God's wisdom and words and applying that to your life) and by being empowered by God to do His will, which is reaching out to people and getting into the world and bring salvation, to help the broken, to help the hurting, to help the less fortunate whether it be financially broken people or broken hearted people, but to make your passion people which is His passion, and do the work that Jesus let us to finish to do, you lay your life down to build His kingdom up, you bring Heaven to earth and bring answers and bring breakthrough and bring help and bring passion to others because you have been empowered to do and live the work and will and love of God, where you take your eyes off your desires and stop putting yourself and your life and school work and your job and everything else first, and put Him first, and in return He gives you all that stuff afterwards, ?where you stop looking at your own beliefs and you stop focusing on what you think and how you think things should be and start putting His beliefs first and making His thoughts be your thoughts, and you lay down all that you create to start creating what He wants done, and in return- everything you sacrifice to follow Him- all your desires and dreams, He not only returns them to you- but in such an adbundance that you could never concieve of the amount, and the two of you live life building eachother up, and you do His will then He does yours in return, it's something that even when you walk away from Jesus, even when you deny that life, and leave it, you always keep it in your heart and there's something in there that never leaves Him and in the back of your mind, maybe I should have been more clear with the 100% impossible statement- I was wrong in saying that, because you can have an experience and walk away, but once you talk about experience with Jesus is where you entire my belief system that you may walk away but there is half of your heart that hasnt, because surrendering your heart for the love of Jesus through an experience to me in my beliefs never returns back to you because your love is forever bound to Him even when you walk away. ?So the reason why I made that statement, is because I wasnt talking about you being wrong- I was talking about my belief that you dont turn away once you have an experience (which however you take it, ?I cant help if you feel and choose to take it that Im saying your wrong), I would never deny your past christianity, or your experiences, but in my belief- when I say you cant walk away after an experience- I mean your heart, there is still apart of your heart that is given in the sacrifice. Yes even you haha, could have had an experience, Im not saying that it's impossible (so yes I was wrong in saying that 100% statement) because I believe anything is possible and the impossible IS possible, and every person IS different and have their OWN INDIVIDUAL story, maybe it was through disapointment and let down that turned you off and away, but I can promise that that wasnt how God entitle it for your life and how He wanted it to be for you.

(it wont let me post the rest all in one, it says I have exceeded the limit, so then continuence is after this post)

But in all your defense you threw at me saying I dont know your story, can you honestly say that you 100% had a true experience with Jesus, I dont know if you really know what an experience is or not,  if you arent sure and if you have to think about it, then you havent, it's one of those things where you KNOW, it's something more than feeling the love of God and more than the high feeling you get as a christian and being a devoted child of God and Him back to you, it's way more than that, because your defense was entitled but really have you?  Dont answer that on here, and dont answer me outloud, dont do that AT ALL, just ask yourself inside your head and reply only to yourself.  I say that, and think, you well you know, I hope that you have, i think it would be great if you proved me that you have and proved me wrong in a sense had a true and total experience, and I would love to know why you turned back from it, I dont know your heart, maybe there is a part that is still attatched to Him that you are denying to yourself and to the world and to God, maybe there is still apart of your heart that longs for Him that you tell that voice to shut up,  I dont know that- only you and God do.  I wasnt telling you, if I did Im sorry and that was wrong, that it was 100% impossible for YOU to have had an experience, but Im saying in general as for all humans, when you have an experience there is still a part of you that is tied and bound into that love with God.  And on another note, not talking about the experience with Jesus but just christianity in general- the moment you ask Jesus to come into your heart, there is a divine connection that no man- not even yourself by choice can break, He is in there forever whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, He has promised to stay there for all eternity whether you like it or not, whether you activate it or not, He's there for you and He's in your heart. But think about this, maybe you could humble yourself enough to tell your story and what happened a christian you some what trust, not in a debate, all christians arent out to destroy the sinners, I grow in a church who welcome anyone and everyone, all we want to do is help them where they feel lost and confused, maybe if you and people like you spoke in confidence with someone it could help those christians who are willing to be helped by a sinner, to help get in their perspective and see why they chose to become why they are, and hey you never know- they might have answers for you.  In my oppinion, as a christian who wants to reach out to people, I would love to talk to non-believers, as a person, not as spiritual battling, and to help me see other views, maybe answer qusetions for them they dont have answers to, and maybe for them to open my mind and let me see why they think things are and how things work, the only true way to help someone and Im not nessicarily talking about spirituality Im talking about life itself, is to open up and listen to that others person OWN story, their own individual life story, not putting them in a category and shoving your point of way in their face and saying "this is how it is, this is how it's gonna be, here it all is, now good luck", it's not like that, it's taking their individual life into consideration and their individual story and talking to them about it, and helping them get through that if they allow it, to work through the problems step by step, taking a little in and taking a little out, coming to that person stripped down of spiritual shouts and demands, but coming to them as just a person who wants to help.  So many churches out there are so afraid that they are going to be like the world, that they disconnect themselves from it, and bulid up these spirtitual walls from the world and only shout from behind them, so afraid the world will conform them and they look down on the world from behind those walls.  That's not how it should be.  The church should be in there, apart of this world as the head not the tail, reaching out to others on a one on one basis, to not curse the darkness but light the candle.  There are so many churches who for example, lets say are on a platform, and they shout to the people below them with judgment and attitude like "you shouldnt be down there, you should be up here, this is the right way you, you live the wrong way,  we're up here and this is the only place you should be", that is totaly wrong and not how God is at all.  What church and christians are supposed to about, is coming off that platform, walking themselves down below, taking that other person hand and hand heart to heart, and walk with them through that, and to stay by their side helping them up back to where you came down from to help them.  Not because we think we are right and holy for being up their, but because we know how wonderful and much is has impacted our lives, and our passion are people and our love is people, that we want nothing more than give you a chance to experience it, so we bring ourselves down to individually help a person.  You see the difference?  But you cant help someone if they dont want to be helped, and if you dont ever get in connection with people from the "other side" then niether will learn from eachother.  People need to stop building walls up afraid they will turn into the other, and start getting into agreement and learn from eachother.  You dont have to reply back to my post if it's just going to turn into another debate, Im not here to debate with anyone, and point out why I think certain things are right, I hate that, and that's not the kind of christian I am or want to be, and I dont mean to debate my beliefs so it's made me feel uneasy posting things because Im not the kind of christian who shouts and forces my beliefs, Im about helping people- not forcing them to change, help is not telling your beliefs and say "if you wanna get better, then do it my way, Im gonna shove this down your throat, and good luck with life" not ever connecting with that person and helping them step by step.  So if you reply back debating, Im not gonna reply back unless I feel the need to, otherwise you picked the wrong christian to debate with.  You cant change the world by debating and declaring beliefs, and Im not about to start that now, it does no good and it only draws people away.

I said IN MY BELIEFS, I can prove, in my beliefs it is truth, it is real, it is fact.  You on ther other hand dont think that, so my proof and my truth wont be real to you because you dont allow Jesus to become real to you.  When you experience Him, He makes Himself real to you, He reveals Himself to you, all truths and promises and reveals answers and fact, but if you dont believe in that then you wont see.  You are given a spiritual set of eyes, to see the unseen and hear the unheard, I cant show you anything if you have your eyes closed to it.  Your eyes see things differently than me.   If you dont hold the same belief, you will never see what I see, and you will never believe if I had proof sitting right in my hands, you wouldnt see it.  Do you get what Im saying here?  I can prove it till Im blue in the face, but if you arent receptive to what Im saying and believing, and if you arent on the same page as me then you arent gonna see it, you arent gonna hear it, you arent gonna feel it.  But not to say that that isnt possible, because so many have come to know God by witnessing God reveals Himself through act, through working into peoples lives, by witnessing miracles and watching others be taken over by the Holy Spirit.

Rocket Queen: ?BELIEF does not equal FACT. ?Just because you believe something, does not make it fact. ? ?You can only honestly say that you know for 100% what you believe is real to you... there is no factual evidence that can support your argument. ?An appeal to belief does not make it so.

Likewise, BELIEF does not make something a FACT. ? I can believe that the world is flat, but we all know it to be false. ?I can believe it with all my heart, my soul, my presence, and I can see it's flatness in other people and how it affects their lives, but, that doesn't make it any more a fact.

Furthermore, you contend that others are being condesending to you, without acknowleging that you are being condesending towards others, which makes you just as much a hypocrite as you are accusing others of being.

?
by saying something is 100% impossible, you are disregarding my experiences. ?Do you not see that? ?Do you not see that as a contridiction to what you've said? ?100% impossible and "Wrong" in this instance mean exactly the same thing, because by saying you are right, the implication is that others are wrong, because you fail to acknowledge that these are your beliefs, and instead you state them as unequivocal truth. ?You fail to see the difference between truth and belief, and therefore, your words become condescending to those that may have a different viewpoint. ?

I did have a true experience with what I BELIEVED at the time to be with jesus. ?I believed it so strongly that I knew for TRUTH everything and my Truth was absolute without question. ?

But see, I have since come to realize that belief is different than truth. ?That doesn't make me right, it doesn't make anyone 'right' or 'wrong' ... it just means that I now understand the difference between what is a belief, and what is a truth. ?

Truth is something you can prove with cold, hard evidence, FACTUAL evidence, not belief, but something that is tangibly proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. ?

Belief is something that you believe to be true within yourself, based on your own, individual experiences, and applicable to your own life. ?


It is impossible to prove something doesn't exist.? Therefore, the burden of proof sits with you, Rocket Queen, to provide your proof.? If you cannot provide factual proof, then you can only either a) continue to argue without merit, or b) concede that you BELIEVE but do not have factual evidence other than your own personal BELIEF of these truths.

I agree, you can't take something and only apply parts that you like. Although most everybody does this with the bible, mainly because it contradicts itself.

I went on to say more thoughts about the 100% impossible, how it was bad choice of words and explaining. ?Did you not read that?

As for my proof and truth and fact, in my belief, I believe that it's not just christianity fact and truth, but it is real true hardcore fact. ?In my belief, belief does EQUAL fact.
In my oppinion, watching what I have watched, and what I have litteraly PHYSICALLY felt, physically seen, physicaly heard, physicaly experience, is proof and truth to me. ?But like I said, with different eye sets, you wont think it's fact, but I do. ?For example, you can tell a color blind person the light is red, but if he sees it purple because his eye set is different than yours, who are you to say that he is wrong in saying that is factually red, yes to the world it is fact through pigments and scientific such that it is red no matter even if he sees it purple, but to him to the day he dies will believe and can prove it is purple- he can prove it by showing you that purple light, but when he shows you- you will see it as red. ?Does that make more sense now? ?I have physically seen, heard and felt things, that always cant be explained, and that is hardcore evidence, because I physically experienced those things, but just like the man who would physically see the purple light- I can show you it, but you arent going to see it.  I meant the definition of man's dictionary, using that DEFINITION, yes God is real, He is living, He ALIVE.
Im not going to debate that anymore, take it for what it is, do what you will with it.

As for my other posts,  you can believe what you want.  I have witnessed over a thousand people this summer alone make the decision to come to know God, people who before either hated God, never knew Him, or never wanted to, but saw proof and truth through the Holy Spirit in the room and witnessing His work in other's lives.  Every word came straight from MY heart, and yes chrisitans have proven God real to people, your more than welcome to go a little church who holds a congregation of 22,000 people in hilsong austrailia where my pastors came from and they can clearly tell you that it is possible for christians to change lives.  This seriously is my last post, and to end that note, YOU WILL SEE THE WORLD CHANGE, God is raising up a church where I am- and all the ones in correlation who are unstopable and will change the world, He's raising up a generation of youth that are on fire for Christ and have already turned cities upside down, God has a movement coming that dreams big and will change the world.  COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY you WILL see it.  I say that in confidence and bold,  every week when I see hundreds get saved, it motivates me and strengthens my belief in HUGE change and impact in this world and peopels lives.  Cut that up tear it down, but you WILL see it.

You can reply back, Im not.

Yes I read that.? However, you continue to state unequivically that your belief is fact, which only continues to deign those with opposing viewpoints.?

However, since you've chosen to back out of this debate (a wise decision)... I'll assume that you've conceded your position, and simply leave it at that.? ?:hihi:?

You're really reaching here! Rocket Queen explained that she didn't mean to deny that it was impossible for you to have an experience, but even if you interpret it that way, there still isn't any intentional malice in her statement. Compare that with some of your condescending statements:

And speaking of contradictions and hypocrisy.


Really? BUT ...

As certain people have said, that is a "wise" choice. But I agree only because of the type of people you're arguing against, not because you're not good at it? : ok:

The point of my post was: don't accuse others of being condescending when you're doing the same thing. That said, there's a world of difference between what you described as condescending and someone just being rude and saying 'your god sucks ass.'


Okay, but I think Christianity is a religion. So you didn't piss on her beliefs, you pissed on mine. Does it make you any less arrogant and egocentric? Qualities that you attribute to Christians, but maybe you need to take a look in the mirror.

And since you claim to be a stickler for context, I would like to point out that you did piss on her beliefs as well in the context of the discussion. Even if she doesn't think Christianity is a religion, she certainly believes that God created the universe. And you said " All religions are man's pathetic way of explaining how the universe got here, no more, no less." Now, unless you are willing to say that because she doesn't think Jesus is a religion, her belief that God created the universe is somehow not "pathetic," you are still pissing on her beliefs, and hence you're still a hypocrite.


She said she can prove it is truth in her beliefs. Meaning she can prove that it is truth for her. By man's definition of the words, all that's needed to prove that in someone's beliefs something is truth, is for that person to sincerely say so. That's all. She didn't say it's truth for everyone as you continue to insist. She admits:
So you're just being a jerk when you keep calling on her to prove that what she believes is a universal fact, and that she should call the TV stations, etc.

Now, about being "blinded by religious fanaticism." We would all agree that life on Earth had a beginning. It didn't exist infinitely. Right? Arguably the biggest questions in biology is how life started. In spite of that and all the attempts to show that life can start on its own, today there is just as much scientific evidence out there to prove that life can spontaneously generate as there is scientific evidence that God created it. So quit that holier than thou facade because, unless you can present me with proof that life can start on its own, you are no less blinded by your atheism than we are by our religion.

Hey, I didn't say anything. Your own actions are my best evidence? :yes: And here you go stereotyping Christians again with "close-mindedness." Very original! But at least you're no longer trying to argue that you're not egocentric or hypocritical, so maybe there's hope for you. And by the way, since you're a purported agnostic, how many times have you gone on such a rampage against atheists?

I thought I was the one who was supposed to be delivering "sermons"  ??? 

You need to visit some nice places like Berkeley and see who does most of the protesting there. Go live there for a while and get back to me on that.

I agree with you POPmetal, it's funny to me how people who arent christians are SO quick to stereotype, and act as though all christians are one yet they get mad when christians steretype them, when there are so many christians out there who make me mad and go about God's work all the wrong ways, it's funny to me as a christian how I dont stereotype athiests and others (my best friend being one) and as thousands of christians I know reach out to invidual people rather than "groups" of people.  You should probably stop posting like how I did, because you can preach it all day long, but someone who can turn the bible into something wrong and bad obviously doesnt know what it's really about, doesnt even come close, their eyes are open but they dont see a thing, their ears are open but they dont hear a thing, so you are just arguing with someone who doesnt know both sides before making their decisions and preachings, even though they think they do- which we shouldnt hold that against them and they still have every right to speak their mind and who are we to tell them they are wrong, they can only make THEIR own decision to decide if they are wrong or not.  It's not our job to tell someone they are wrong or walking the wrong path, that's the Holy Spirits job, but what our job is- is to bring them into a place where they can hear the Holy Spirit, but they have to make the choice to be receptive to it.  There are a thousand things I could have said, and so many ways I could have gone about posting back, and catch others in their mistakes, but we arent to pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults, and not to condem those who are down, "it's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblvious to the ugly sneer on your own.  Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt?  It's this I-know-better-than-you mentality again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your own part.  Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor" (luke 6).  Non christians are christians- just with out Jesus, so we should treat them no different than we do believers, we all have faults and neither can live perfect with perfect actions of not saying anything hypocrital sounding expecially when so many people have to pin point and nit pick at simple statements that dont need to be skinned so much, we all are people who niether side should condem the other or tell who is right and who is wrong, I know I dont jump down a non-believers throat when I see them fault up in their statements because what human doesnt do that.  As christians we cant argue and debate, we are to meerly be an example of and reflect Christ's love, know when to speak- know when not to, and more importantly know what to, and when someone pins you as acting that way even when you arent- remember that they are only going to see what they want to see- if you are acting it or not they will see exactly what they are set out to see.  We arent to point out what is right and wrong, but just to live right and keep the message alive.  I wasnt at all offended by bridges or tied-ups words, because in order to be offended it has to pierce your flesh, but my flesh has been crucified in the Holy Spirit and no weapon formed against me will prevail, it comes with the territory, and it's not gonna slow me down or stop me, and I dont hold their words against them as they did to me, it only encourages me and I work the good through it, I know what's in store when you speak God's word- you get attacked, but when I stand in His name He stands for me before the Father, I already know and understand why things are the way they are so it's no skin off my back.  I said I wasnt going to reply, but I meant that as in to them.  I found your posts to be true, and I am only talking to you through this post.  The reason why I dont want to post back and forth like before, is for the reason I stated above, because look at probably the number one reason in my oppinion, why so many people get turned off from Jesus is because of looking at other christians, how they live, how they go about things, and there are so many christians out there who dont do what God says to do and how to and the word and will of God and preach down to non believers and give a horrible example of Jesus and show people the wrong image and the wrong way of how Jesus planned for us to be, so many christians who give God a bad name- are the highest reason why people are so turned off from God, and it's because we are His mouth and His hands on earth- we are His embassadors and if we do the job wrong, then it will reflect that on earth. It goes to show how IMPORTANT it is for christians to follow the entire way of God's will before opening their mouths, how important our actions are and how microscoped they are.   I appologize, on the behalf of so many christians who give the wrong image of God, because it even makes MY stomach turn and makes ME mad when I see people like that, and people just like how Bridge described who protest the wrong way and say the wrong things and do it with hate and are hypocrits, but Im only responsible for MY actions because I am an individual child of Christ with my own relationship with a living breathing savior. 
I didnt mean to type so much, and I probably shouldnt have typed at all, I just wanted to say I liked your posts and agreed.

Is that sarcasim, if it is, there's no reason for you to be mean towards me.  But I don't meen to assume that, if you are joking around not being mean.  An just for reference, me saying that Im not posting anymore meant pertaining to that discussion and back an forth posts between us, maybe I should have specified that.  Haha, it drives me nuts too how I do that, I dont know if it's out of laziness  ::) or just that I dont know enough grammar to know when to seperate paragraphs.  I dont think that will change though haha

Putting Pat Robertson in the same thread as Jesus is insulting to Jesus. I`m no religious scholar, but Jesus never condoned taking out someone as Robertson suggested. I don`t think there is a bigger sin than abusing your influence from the pulpit.

Yeah that's what I thought when I saw the smiley, but I was just checkin just in case  :)

Thanks Rocket Queen. I really learned a lot from your post. Cuz I'm the type of person who reacts unchristianly in some situations and forgets to turn the other cheek. The only thing I would disagree on is in that I think the number one reason people get turned off by Christianity is the way the media portrays us. They always focus on the negative, which is unfair because none of us are perfect and there are bad apples in every lot, not just Christians. From what I've seen, the majority of Christians are good people, it's just that you always see the odd one out being mocked and ridiculed by the media, and non-Christians assume that stereotypical view. But this is not to say that certain Christians giving God a bad name doesn't play a big role as well. Well, even if you didn't change anyone else's mind, you did influenced me, and I really like your positive attitude.

You still talking? I thought you'd be in Berkeley by now ;D You really need to see some of the leftist protesters there. They even bring drums along so they can disrupt pro-life speakers because they they don't think they should have the right to be heard. It's quite a sight :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: I don't think even the most annoying of Christian protesters can match that.

I can't agree dude, check out this story.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050828/ap_on_re_us/soldier_funeral_protests

I agree that banging drums is annoying and disrespectful, but christians protesting at a dead guy's funeral -- in the presence of his grief stricken relatives -- by yelling "god hates fags!" and "burn in hell fags!" is below the scumbag level.

thats just sad...

Yes, that is even lower. Those people don't know anything about being Christians.

Wow... I'm actually able to move from page to page without a 4 minute wait... so I guess I'll respond now to some of the comments made... first up... some that were made about my condesending tone...


Well, the first comment was made in jest, because there was a bit of a debate about the "god of the new testament" vs. the "god of the old testament" ... so basically I just stated simply that they both suck ass, (which is my opinion, I am entitled to my own opinion, am I not?) and that I prefer to worship Axl... followed by the? :hihi:? It wasn't meant to be condesending, and quite honestly, the only people I can see that would be offended by such a statement made in jest would be right wing nut jobs.? And for those who are offended by my last comment... probably should be offended.

The second comment is another opinion, not a condensending remark.? I do believe that most religion is a farce, designed to manipulate and brainwash the minds of humans.? I believe that religion is a tool designed for, and used by the weak, because they need something more than what life has to offer them.? The weak choose to hide inside this shelter and live their lives according to some dated doctrine in the hopes that after they die, they might have something better, while wasting the great life that has been given to them.

That's my belief.? If you find my belief offensive and condesending, perhaps that is something that you might want to reflect upon, because I'm not going to apologize for believing the way I do, any more than you're going to apologize for believing the way you do.? If my beliefs are condesending to you, then you should have no problem in my thinking your beliefs are condesending to me... and hey, if you can continue to condesend me by believing as you do... then, you better get ready for some condescension to be served your way as well.



Actually, I was first accused of being condesending by Rocket Queen.? I was merely pointing out that she was just as guilty of what she was accusing me of being.? And then I merely pointed out where she was being condesending as well as blatantly contradictory in her posts.

Again, my comment about your god sucks ass... while I do continue to hold the opinion, it was made in jest.? Prior to delving deep into this debate, I tried to keep things light and fun.


I don't actually consider myself an atheist... I don't think that atheists would refuse to listen to accept the possibility, however, do bear in mind that when you find an atheist... I can ASSURE? you they've heard all the 'witnessing' from christians they can probably stand, so they probably won't really want to listen, becuase... they've heard it all before.

 I've seen atheist friends being witnessed to in public, with HANDS ON prayers... how terribly embarrassing, insulting and intrusive!? And christians wonder why those who don't follow their faith find them to be meddling, presumptious assholes. ?Fortunately, since I wear an amulet around my neck, they take one look at me and they back away. ?Maybe they think that by laying their hands on me, they'll be steeped with EVIL! ? ? 8)


This goes for any religion outside of the realms of christianity, including muslim, buddhist, taoist, pagan... etc etc.? Christians are CONDESENDING in their belief that they are the only RIGHT ones.
 

Wow... you were gone for what?? less than a day?? I was gone longer than that, and I didn't profess to bow out of the debate.


Nahhhhh... I was WRONG... you AREN'T condesending... NOOOOOO!!! Not in the least.? (that is sarcasm for those who fail to recognize it)


Not only condesending but also truly insulting. Perhaps as a self-labeled' heathen, I can refer to christians as being heathens without the mind to think for themselves. 

That guy is a total fuckin jerk. Furthest thing away from anything good. Even other churches protest (seriously) when he comes to town.

CARACAS, Venezuela, Aug 28 (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday his government would take legal action against Pat Robertson and potentially seek his extradition after the U.S. evangelist called for Washington to assassinate the South American leader.

Robertson, who later apologized for the remark, said he was expressing his frustration with Chavez's constant accusations against the administration of President George W. Bush.

"I announce that my government is going to take legal action in the United States ... to call for the assassination of a head of state is an act of terrorism." Chavez said in a televised speech.

The fiery left-wing critic of Bush's foreign policy who frequently charges the U.S. government is plotting to kill him, called Robertson "crazy" and a "public menace."

He said Venezuela could seek Robertson's extradition under international treaties and take its claim to the United Nations if the Bush administration did not act.

Robertson, the founder of the Christian Coalition and a leader of the Christian right that has backed Bush, said on Monday that if Chavez "thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it."

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said political assassination was against the law and was not U.S. policy.

Relations between Chavez and the United States, the top buyer of the OPEC nation's oil, have deteriorated since Chavez survived a brief 2002 coup he says was backed by U.S. authorities. Washington says it is not plotting to kill Chavez and denies involvement in the coup.

Chavez said on Friday Bush would be to blame if anything happened to him. In the past, he has said Venezuela, the world's fifth-largest oil exporter, would cut sales to the United States if he was assassinated.

A close ally of communist Cuba, Chavez presents his self-proclaimed revolution as an alternative to U.S. policies in the region.

Washington says Chavez is a negative influence who uses oil profits to fund anti-democratic groups in South America while becoming more authoritarian at home.

U.S. civil rights activist Jesse Jackson, visiting Venezuela on Sunday, called Robertson's remarks "immoral" and rejected U.S. government claims against Chavez.

Funny I saw the news on TV an hour ago !
Pat Roberston should have seen this coming ! Now he's an easy target ! :hihi:

what's actually funny is that : "Washington says Chavez is a negative influence who uses oil profits to fund anti-democratic groups in South America while becoming more authoritarian at home"

I'm not saying that Chavez a saint, he isn't ... but he was democratically elected until 2006! And washington stating that he's supporting anti-democratic groups in South America is hilarious ... Who supported Pinochet and all the south american dictatorship for decades ?

  I think we should just gift wrap Robertson and give him to Chavez.   Consider it a peace offering gift.

We would not only make Chavez happy, but, we would be rid of Robertson. BONUS!

While we're at it... can we just toss the rest of the right wing nut jobs in the box?

I was hoping Robertson would stand on top of the Dome in New Orleans, squeeze his eyes real hard and pray for the thing to go south......Too bad he wasn' thinking the same thing.

*****

Serious though Robertson pissing off Chavez (who has already threatened to cut our oil off) is great timing, especially with a hurricane that may destroy our ports where oil is delivered and the refeneries in the gulf...

They should COD his ass to S America right away..... :hihi:

I wonder what the USA would do if some "church leader" in south America called for W's (pin)head?

If Chavez follows W's scale, then we should be ok, since he would invade a totally different country..... :hihi:

I think that the right wing nut jobs that were arguing with me and Bridge have finally shaken the dust off their sandals or however that passage is supposed to go.  Bummer... I was so enjoying the comic relief from their ramblings.

This farce just gets better and better. Now, after his talks with the reverend Jesse Jackson :rofl:? Chavez is gonna sell oil directly to poor communities in the US.



Not that this affects me, but even if it did, I'd still rather pay more to avoid buying from Citago, which is a fully owned subsidiary of the Venezuelan state oil monopoly, and portions of its proceeds, whether directly or indirectly, end up helping radical left wing entities such as FARC terrorists and Fidel Castro's dictatorship.

That's why I think Bush's energy plan is so pathetic. Instead of subsidizing oil companies, we should be funding alternative forms of energy research, so that we can end our oil dependency on Saudi Arabia and Venezuela and stop funding terrorists and Marxists. And in the meantime, start drilling in Alaska.

Yeah right and maybe you can build a wall and live in autarchy !  : ok: :rofl:

Bridge:  I don't know... he acts a lot like an ordained reverend.  He even cheats on his wife just like the other ministers do.    :yes:

The guy has dedicated himself to human rights around the world, working alongside Martin Luther King. He was in the seminary but did not finish after he decided to dedicate himself to the civil rights movement.

He's probably done ten-fold what anybody at your church has, or ever will do.

Yeah, and Jesse gave an awesome reading of Green Eggs and Ham a few years back on SNL.

He's done alot to make his family rich and stir up racial tensions.? He hasn't done shit for the average black family except exploit them.? If that wasn't enought he is also an anti semite.

"Huh? Wazzat? I bolt upright in bed. Had EDB finally gone over the edge?

As I listened it turned out there had been a stampede at a South Side nightclub today that resulted in the deaths of 21 people. There was a fight between two girls on the second floor and the bouncers quickly moved in and started using pepper spray on everyone. In an attempt to find fresh air, the 1,500 patrons of the club stormed down a single, narrow stairwell that led to the only exit out of the building. The news was still being sorted out as I listened, but one thing was quickly relayed to the listener:

The Reverend Jesse Jackson arrived at the scene and declared, "We are asking area ministers to go to hospitals. My people are overwhelmed with the suddenness of this. At a time like this, you have to lean on your faith."

Bullshit Jesse. Fucking bullshit. The only thing you lean on are the television cameras.

You see, the only reason that nightclub was still open was because of Jesse. Back in July the E2 club was supposed to be shut down because of the numerous fights that took place in and around the club and because of several fire code violations. There was only one tiny stairwell leading out of the place and many of the doors were usually locked. If there was a fire, there would be a stampede and people could get crushed to death...

In swoops Jesse Jackson to the rescue!

The E2 nightclub was a black-owned business run by one of Jesse's childhood friends! How dare the city try to shut it down! This fire code violation must be the result of a secret campaign to take down black businessmen! Thus began a legal fight to keep the club open, with Jesse leading the charge protecting the little businessman from the big bad city inspectors.

Now, seven months later, almost the exact thing that the city wanted to prevent has happened. And who was front and center on the TV cameras offering prayer and help to the families? Jesse Fucking Jackson

Talk about damage control.

I really should be used to this by now, Jesse's use of the media and empty calls of racism to further his own personal agenda. I guess it's just that racism most definitely still exists in Chicago and instead of trying to help solve actual problems that are occuring, Jesse only wants to make more money for himself and his family. His Chicken Little cries of racism only serve to trivialize real problems that still go on.

One of Jesse's nicknames here is the "King of Beers." A few years ago, Anheuser-Busch was having problems in the city. African-American employees complained that they were being denied promotions and were threatening to call in Jackson and Operation PUSH if Busch didn't satisfy their demands. Jackson began rumbling about how there were no black-owned beer distributors in Chicago and started to preach a heavy anti-alcohol message to his congregations. He had led a major boycott of Anheuser-Busch in 1982, and the beer company didn't want a repeat of that. So they sent a $10,000 contribution to Jackson's Citizenship Education Fund in 1997, and campaign cash to Jesse Jackson Jr. in his run for the House of Representatives.

But Jesse only turned up the heat, decrying the complete absence of minority ownership. So Busch sold the highly lucrative River North distributorship to two young black men, Yusef Jackson and Johnathan Jackson, for about $7 million, about one third of the price it should have cost. The Jackson brothers were in their 20s and had no experience in marketing or management, let alone running a huge beer distribution firm. But I guess the fact that they were Jesse's sons was the only experience required. What was Jesse's (who remember up until now had talked about how evil alcohol was for the black community) response?"

Many people get honorary PHD's (See: MLK), he probably was given that title (reverand) as well (although I could be wrong).

 Reread my post for more background info.

Either way, this man has done plenty, more than anybody on this board I am sure, for the advancement of civil rights, and human equality. To give him shit because he chose to drop seminary and follow those ideals is a rather low class thing to say. But, as I see often on this board, those who promote peace, understanding, and respect are looked down on. While people who wage wars, lie, and condone murder are looked up to. :confused:

Jesse usually is good for stirring up the shit and gets in the way of progress.

But it looks like he actually accomplished something wit this visit with Chavez.

If Venezuela legally elected this guy then who are we to say anything? That is what the people want and that is their right in a demoratic society.