Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I've asked the question a few times in various threads and no ones been able to supply a satisfactory answer.

In Axls fax message announcing Slash had "quit" GN'R, he says something like "dive in and find the monkey".
 
Can somebody please enlighten me as to what the hell he's on about??

This has been eating away at me for a long time and I need some closure on this one... please??

Maybe its a oxymoron.  As in that statement makes no sense.  As in the reason it made no sense slash left.
And maybe it doesnt, who knows, I dont have a clue. Just my two cents.

Ive asked colleagues, friends, family, trawled the internet, google searches and I cant find one definition of this phrase? Could James Lofton be correct in his assertion that Axl was just speaking incoherent nonsense at that point?

I think it has something to do with Slash not wanting to work hard enough on the songs to make them good enough to be put out ex the snakepit stuff. That stuff could have been really really good if it was worked on some more. Thats how I see it anyway.

yeah the jist of the statement tends to imply that - you're right, but when looking specifically at "dive in and find the monkey" ,theres no way one could ascertain such a thing from just that???  ???

Well taken in context its kinda like that kids game where they have this huge thing on rubber balls and they put a stuffed monkey in it and blindfold kids and make them jump in and find the monkey. They gotta work hard at it in order to find what they are looking for. Which kinda relates to slash not wanting to work hard on the material.

*this probably doesnt make much sense but its 2 am and im really really tired*

there is a game where you do that? If so, you may well have answered the eternal question  :beer:

yeah they have it at the mc donalds near where i live lol.

really? and it's actually called 'dive in and find the monkey'? or does that just describe how the game is played?

and how exactly would that relate to Slash not being willing to work hard on new material? sorry, Im sure you explained that already

Ive heard of 'pin the tail on the donkey' and I know of a game where you hit an animal of some kind (not a monkey that Im aware of) that is filled with sweets etc...

ive never heard of such a game at my local mcdonalds, where you literally dive in somewhere/something to find a monkey? ????

Its not called dive in and find the monkey, but that basically describes it. Its this huge tank of balls adn they use it for like kids birthday parties etc.

Well the slash part ive taken from several interviews and that. It seems that during 94-95 whenever they were working on new guns material and something was written slash didnt want to develop it to its fullest potential (you can see it with the snakepit stuff and the vr stuff to a degree).

Guess it depends on who you are willing to beleive. The other side of that story is that Slash brought in the material, Axl didn't want it and so it went to Snakepit. Not long after that Axl decided he did want the material, which of course was long gone by then.

Then again, that Snakepit album sucked and we're probably better off that it didn't end up as GnR material.

Not sure what he meant in the fax.  However, the fax itself was a major disappointment, and a serious blow to the future of Rock N Roll.

Basically Slash wanted a stripped down record withouth any bells and whistles of the illusions. Axl still wanted sound effects and new industrial influences to be added to GNR. A difference in oppinion, Slash wasnt being lazy. ?If someone needs to be labeled lazy it was Axl who recorded no vocals or lyrics during this time.

slash was fuckin lazy... he wanted to do the awful snakepit record a gnr record.. that fukcin record was awfull... it didnt propose anything new.. and you have to be seriuos about the context that the music industry was living at that moment.. the raise of alt rock... axl instead insisted to try a reinvent the sound.. to no sound outdated not makin it industrial or grunge or country, just to sound rite with the musical reality of the moment... when slash realized that what axl was doin would be huge... he quit... 

Wasn't this threads purpose to find out what that quote ment, not to bash Slash  :-\?

post the whole fax and use it in context

Yea, post the whole fax to show how fucking crazy Axl REALLY is! Axl must still be looking for his monkey because one song in 15 years is a real wild experimental guy! This is the first comment Axl made about putting out a Gnr record without Slash (for those who don't know Axl claims he will put out a Gnr record-12 songs-3 b sides). 1996/97 till now........one song! He's a real visionary! :rant:

yea, but its a shame that Axl's not working with Slash's material from the last 2 years, because the new stuff would've sounded great with Axl writing the lyrics and signing the vocals. I can just imagine Axl singing "SMF" (different lyrics obviously) & it would've been classic.

MnR

Yes, Set Me Free is definitely a classic GNR type song, and back in the day would have been huge had GNR recorded it.

And Axl had the chance to make that huge, modern sounding record when Slash left in 96....No more interference from Slash!!! Perfect right?

 About the "dive in and find the monkey" comment...there is a saying called "more fun then a barrel of monkeys" that people used going way back.

Reportedly Axl made another comment about the Monkey later on to a fan. just because a monkey got computers doesn't mean he won't clap his cuddies or something along those lines... perhaps it's another monkey.

Like Dave said, Please post the whole fax or the link. I haven't seen it.

sure thing, here it is:

": LIVE!!! From Burning Hills, California...

: Due to the overwhelming enthusiasm and that "dive in and find the monkey attitude"

: #1. There will NOT be a GNR tour.

: #2. There will NOT be an official GNR website.

: #3. There will NOT be any new GNR video's.

: #4. There will NOT be any new GNR involved merchandise.

: #5. There will NOT be a GNR fanclub.

: #6. There will be a new GNR 12 song minimum with 3 original "B" sides.

: #7. However, Slash will no longer be involved in any GNR endeavors, as far has
: not been involved with GNR since April, 1994 with the exception of a BRIEF feel
: with Zack Wylde and a two-week initial period with GNR in the late fall of 95.
: He has been legally and officially outside of GNR partnership since Dec.31,1995.
: ***********************************************************************************
: Nothing here is subject to change without A Permanant Suspension of the "Pseudo
: Studio Musician Work Ethic".

: Sincerely, W.Axl Rose"

yes, I recall anoher monkey comment as well - its an interesting preoccupation uncle Axl seems to have with monkeys

I think its like "Find the needle in the haystack" saying.

Jump in the crap and find the truth (the donkey)

Jimmy, I think my theory about the quote is the best so far. I've noticed in this thread that people are still spreading the lie that Snakepit was going to be the next GNR record. This was a lie created by Axl as an excuse for not doing anything in late94-early 95. Slash took a few riffs to Axl and Axl didn't like it, so Slash did Snakepit. End of story. How could snakepit have been a GNR record when Eric Dover wrote most of the lyrics and there were musicians on the record not in GNR? Why people still believe this lie 10 years after the fact still amazes me.

I agree that some of Axls broadcasts are very strange. That 2002 interview where he called Slash a liar and Matt an albatross, the press statement about OMG, the above fax and the Buckethead statement. All very odd passages indeed ...fascinating nonetheless

Yeah, its definitely fascinating. But it proves just how insane the guy really is. His lies about Snakepit are also hilarious. Even more hilarious is that there's people out there who believed it.

yeah, that was taken a bit far Im sure. But a regular pattern for Axl is to always look to lay blame somewhere - it's always someone elses fault.
Blaming Buckethead for the cancellation of RIR being a little gem

Yeah, using BH as an excuse for no Rio was pathetic. Even more pathetic, he said Buckethead's departure would " take things to the next level". Where's this next level? Pretty much nothing has been accomplished since he left.

How is it a lie? Even Gilny said the material that became the snakepit stuff was suppose to be the next gnr album but Axl and Dyff walked out on it because they werent allowed to work on it (develop it).

Of course it's a lie. Everything is always Axl's fault. Don't you know? :o
I bet the reason why VR is so plain and mediocre is somehow Axl's fault too.

Ive no doubt that some of that Snakepit album would have been what Slash proposed as new Guns material at the time. I recall this being said by Slash when he released the album..

But I find it trite that Axl would infer Slash has a poor work ethic, basically implying he's lazy. Whatever you think of Slash's output (good or bad, and theres been some of both) I think it's a stretch to to call him lazy and blame him for a lack of productivity

while we're at it, whats meant by stating the location as "Burning Hills"?

I kind of like Axl in this fax, indeed a bizarre communication but it makes me laugh for some reason. ;D

What do you mean burning hills? Like the gret california brush fires?

he starts out the message "Live!! From Burning Hills, California!"

OK i thinks thats in refernce to the california brush fires that came close to burning his house down in like 95.

I will say it again for the people who don't understand logic. How could an album mostly written by a non-GNR member and music partially written by a non-GNR member be a GNR album?? I'm sure Slash brought some of the snakepit riffs to the GNR table, but its clearly obvious he did not take the snakepit record to Axl.

the music was mostly written by slash and gilby.... no one is saying the lyrics would have been used by gnr.

nice one! thanks for that  : ok:

Well, Axl lived up to his predictions #1-4 and 7! :rofl: Now, I'm still waiting for #6. :hihi: James, Axl is not lying and Slash has backed him up on that multiple times. Slash brought alot of instrumentals that ended up as the Snakepit album to Axl and Axl rejected the material-or a good majority of it. End of discussion. He certainly didn't lie. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle-both parties tend to skew the facts a little to their advantage-just like a divorce.? :peace: Nobody gonna comment on the statement about "legally and officially outside of the partnership"? Axl was crafty!!!!!! ....but obviously a lunatic. 8) By the way, the date of this fax is Oct 30, 1996. One thing I guess I remembered incorrectly was that Axl did not give a date for the album. I always thought he said it would be released the next summer, that may have been MTV talking at the time.? :-*

OK, lets say the whole snakepit record was rejected by Axl. This brings up an interesting question. Was Gilby's album also rejected? Because some of that album has a GNR vibe. Ever since the first time I heard 'Cure Me Or Kill Me', I could picture Axl singing it and always thought it was meant for GNR. Take the best songs from Pawnshop Guitars, the best songs from Snakepit, the best songs from Believe In Me, and throw in a few Axl ballads, and you've got a pretty damn good GNR record for 94-95.

 :rofl:

James, I think what Axl means by Slash being lazy is the fact that he wanted SLash to push the envelope to another leve, another type of sound. Instead of doing the regular GNR stuff Axl wnated to incorportae newer stuff into that. WHether you think thats a right move or not is not the point. But thats what Axl wanted to go with GNR. Slash didnt. Hence we have 2 different bands.

Thats not laziness.

Correct. That is simply a difference in opinion and taste-the classic "musical differences." The reason why a thousand other bands have broke up-no more no less. :(

it could be considered laziness. Maybe Slash didnt want to put in the time to develop a new sound. Maybe it was easier for him to make a great bluesy riff instead of doin something else.

but overall its a difference of opion,musical direction and tatse.

Come on, you can't be seriouse.

why if you can reinvent yourself and be great you would do the same things and be mediocre?

No.  Slash didnt want a "new sound," so time is irrelevant.  So again, its not laziness, and no amount of word-twisting can change that.

Attempting to pass off Slash as "lazy" ridiculous.?

There's a huge difference in "lazy" and flat out not believing in a musical direction, not being inspired to follow a lead you see as a step in the wrong direction, a step backwards. 

im not trying to pass Slash off as lazy. He has done a lot more than Axl since leaving the band. But he was content with what he was doing att the time. And as time has shown he was sadly worng in that style of playing. See Snakepit/VR.

That's your opinion, which is fine. 

However, characterizing Slash's playing style as "wrong" is for lack of a better term, "wrong" in and of itself.  His progression as a player might not agree with your taste, but it seems your taste for Slash oriented guitar work begins and ends with GNR.



 

Lazy as in too lazy to try something new, something more difficult. It could also be said as not being interested in evolving.

Or the old "musical differences".  ;D



Not lazy as in "too lazy to work". There's a difference.


/jarmo

Sure there's a difference, but even characterizing it as lazy in a sense of "not being interested in evolving" is off the mark as well.? As I mentioned before, he obviously didn't believe in Axl's vision, viewing it as a step backward.? Moving ahead in a direction you have no faith in is hardly evolution, it's more of a betrayal to your own musical progression.

You kind of are. ?Youre trying very hard to find reasons why he might be considered lazy instead of just being honest and admitting that the notion of Slash being lazy is nonsense.


As Falcon pointed out, thats your own opinion. ?But I would add that time certainly hasnt shown Axl to be any less wrong. ?See "My World"/Nothing.


But as some of us have pointed out, thats not what the word "lazy" means. ?It means disinclined to work; sluggish or slow-moving; of or inducing idleness. ?Slash is the exact opposite, and I think you, youngunner, and others know this but for some reason you guys seem more interested in inventing new definitions for the word to justify such a clearly false premise.

The word "lazy" means something very specific and we all know that it doesnt apply to Slash who is possibly the hardest-working member of GNR.

"Stubborn" is the word you guys seem to be looking for. ?If it sounds like petty semantics, its really not. ?Theyre two different words, and two different meanings. ?Slash wasnt interested in what Axl wanted for GNR, so he couldnt be too "lazy" to try it - he didnt want to do it, period. ?Musical differences is right, laziness is plainly wrong.

Indeed the notion of suggesting Slash is lazy is an absurd one...

He has kept himself the busiest of all the original members.

You may have problems with what you perceive as a lack of quality control, but that is a different thing entirely

haha this cracked me up - he's pretty much acheived all the goals listed on that fax!(bar the small matter of releasing an album!) What a strong work ethic he has!? :rofl:

I disagree. I know what lazy means, but I can see how you could describe somebody who's just comfortable in doing what they've been doing for years, instead of making an extra effort to change things, as lazy.

For example: Like going to a boring job year after year and hating it, but you get paid and it would require an extra effort to actually quit and get a new job. So you keep doing it because it's the most comfortable thing to do.

So in one way that person would be lazy.

In my opinion....


/jarmo

This analogy doesnt work because it would have to assume that Slash wasnt happy with doing what he wanted to do (standard GNR-style rock) and we know thats not the case.  Slash wanted to do that style of music.  He didnt want to do what Axl wanted to do, not because he was too lazy to put in the work, but because he didnt agree with it.  Its not a style of music he wanted to participate in for GNR.  Stubborness perhaps, but not laziness in any sense.

Of course the example doesn't apply to GN'R. That's why I listed it as an example.  ;)


I still think learning something new requires more effort than doing what you do. For a musician to record 18 songs in his/her old style is probably easier than to record 18 songs in a completely different genre/style.

It's like being told you can't keep your job unless you take a course in how to use a computer. So you say "fuck you, I don't wanna study. I'm going to start my own company where I don't need computers!".  :hihi:



But I can see what you mean by the stubborn aspect. I think it's just a question of Axl seeing things differently and I can see both sides....



/jarmo

oR, Maybe Jarmo's example does apply to GN'R this time? 

To consider the person who doesn't want to work as hard as you as lazier than you, is not wrong, innit?
Apparently Slash was not such an energetic learner as Axl.
In The following Axl reports that Slash said he didn't work that hard?

According to Rose, part of the delay in building the new model of Guns N Roses has been "educating myself" about the technology that's come to define rock in the nineties: "It's like from scratch, learning how to work with something and not wanting it just to be something you did on a computer." At least one of his former band mates didn't really want any part of that process - "Slash told me, 'I don't want to work that hard,' " Rose recalls.
-Axl Speaks     Rolling Stone, January 2000
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=30

:P the exact words allegedly he wrote to a fan were

"The new band will have all kinds of styles. We just wanted to shake up
the old timers and let the kids know somethin's comin'. Looks like it
worked. I watch all the cheap shots people take out of ignorance and
it just doesn't cease to amaze me. It's funny, just cause you give a
monkey a computer doesn't mean he won't crap his huggies!"

Maybe it was the same monkey.

Thanks jimmy for posting the whole fax. : ok:
Now I think I Actually have seen it. I remember the last line.
Whatever, it seems to me that '95 was not the best year for him.

I think this one was a different monkey.

  Younggunner, you are correct in your observations.  It looks like we're outnumbered though. 

  Oh well...I just don't get it...has anybody else here heard the stuff Duff and Slash did after GNR and before VR?  I'd like everyone to listen to that closely.  If you listen closely enough, you can actually hear the album that would have sealed GNR's fate...ultimate failure.  Yes, I know, all the haters are gonna chime in and say Axl has failed...but I disagree.  You have to have tried to fail.  (and yes, I'm aware some will say, "Better to try and fail, than never to have tried at all.")  But I don't think that holds in this case.  I personally think GNR would be worse off had they released the dud I think they'd have released in '96 or '97.  That's just my 2 cents.   :)

 :beer:
Axl4Prez2004   

Thats all personal opinion...the issue is attributing Slashs refusal to adhere to Axls vision to "laziness" when its not.  Slash wasnt interested in making industrial/electronic/"alternative" music, it has nothing to do with laziness whatsoever.  He wanted to make straight-ahead "GNR-style" rock.  Apparently thats what Axl supposedly wanted, but despite being interested in making a "Slash record" and Slash creating the "meanest, most contemporary, bluesiest, rocking thing since Aerosmith?s Rocks," he didnt do it.  So musical differences, yes.  Laziness?  Absolutely not.

Axl4Prez, that was a bold statement you just made. Ive heard those albums, and I disagree. If you take the best songs from the members solo material, add a few Axl ballads, it would have been pretty good. Not AFD, thats for sure. But it would have been good enough for that time. GNR could have done an average album in 1995-96, and still recovered. There was plenty of time to redeem themselves. Thats not the case anymore. CD is Axl's one and only chance to redeem himself. After CD is released, he either gets his respect back or becomes an irrelevant footnote in the history of music. If anything would have sealed the band's fate, it is what Axl was working on in 97-98. If Oh My God is the best from those industrial techno sessions, then Im glad it never surfaced.

Yeah, well one man's dud is another man's gem, I personally think with some of the bad-ass riffs on Slash's Snakepit's first offering, combined with Axl's voice could have been an excellent album.

 

Right, that's not laziness.


Forget what you think Axl proposed as an alternative. The whole point is, Slash didn't want to do anything but "straight-ahead "GNR-style" rock". And that's laziness in a sense of taking the easy way out. Leave Axl out of this for a moment and ask yourself whether Slash known as an experimental musician or a one-trick pony as a blues-based guitarist (admittedly one of the very best).

The man's track record doesn't lie. A workaholic can still be attributed with the word 'lazy', just depends how you look at it.

Haven't we heard that Axl had one of those ball pits for the kids to play in at one of the halloween parties?

And as Ive already explained, its only the easy way out if Slash wanted to do something different and was too lazy to follow through...thats not the case.? He simply didnt want to do Axls music, end of story.? He wasnt into it on a creative level.


Its still irrelevant to the main point.? The point is that Slash didnt agree with Axls vision on a creative level.? That being the case (and it is the case) how can he possibly escape being tagged as "lazy" by a few Axl die-hards?? Because you guys are inventing new meanings for the word when it simply doesnt apply to Slash in any way.?

The fact is, Slash did do different things on UYI, and may have done similar things on the next record...but not what Axl wanted to do.? An "experimental" musician?? Not really, but a very accomplished musician whos since touched on blues, flamenco, and many styles of rock.? The problem is you equating disagreement with Axls ideas to laziness.? :no:?


Youre right, his track record doesnt lie.? Hes done songs with Spanish pop singers to Lemmy Kilmeister to Ray Charles.? His track is long and actually quite varied.? But he had his own idea of what GNR should be and couldnt follow Axls vision, and Ill state it again: Disagreeing with Axls ideas (digressions into electronic/industrial) doesnt make him lazy...in any sense.? Call him stubborn if you must, but please quit twisting the meaning of the word "lazy" to justify this false notion.?

In fact...Explain to me what kind of hard work is required on Slashs part in allowing GNR to move into an electronic or industrial direction?? And tell me, if his heart genuinely isnt into that style, how can he refuse to do it without being labeled as somehow lazy?

Look Booker, here's thing with you in this conversation. You constantly digress in your replies whenever someone applies the term 'lazy' to Slash. You take it completely out of the intended context by dragging "Axl's vision" into it.


 

No, I was personally talking about in which ways Slash could be considered lazy. That was my point.



How about routines? How about doing things "the old way", because you're too lazy to seek / try out alternative methods?
 


For the record: Disagreeing with Axl is ok by me. His decision. Not doing it Axl's way, not lazy. 
 


And that idea was, in your opinion, "straight-ahead "GNR-style" rock". How's this: Slash was so fixated in the said idea, that practically anything Axl would've thrown in his direction would've broken the formula and thus, gotten rejected. Axl didn't want to do the same routine all over again - Slash apparently did. Axl wanted to experiment with the GNR music - Slash apparently didn't, because he had his idea. While experiments always include a risk of going awry (e.g. My World), they can also breath new air into the output and prove out to be more rewarding then walking along the beaten path.

In this sense, I still say Slash can be called 'lazy'.




I'm too lazy to grant your wish there.
 


If Slash would've tried out doing some of Axl's ideas (whatever they might've been) and given them a fair shot, and then said: "Dude, I just can't do this, it's not my thing", I wouldn't have called him lazy. In fact, I would've applauded him on going out of his way to try them out.

Instead, he chose not try. This I call lazy.

Thats what this is about.? The word is only being applied to Slash in regards to the vision of the UYI follow-up.? Because nobodys foolish enough to imply that Slash is lazy by the actual definition, so some of you have to take creative license with the meaning of the word.?


Right, using your own personal definition of the word.


This is the frustrating part for me, to point out the same thing clearly at least three times and still see that people dont get it.? Slash wanted to do things "the old way," yes.? Where youre wrong is the second part of that sentence.? Its not because he was too lazy to "try out alternative methods."? Thats simply not the reason in any sense.? Its because he likes doing things "the old way."? He likes the "GNR-style" sound, and thats what he wanted for GNR.? Now youll say "Yeah, he liked that sound because he was too lazy..." and thats when Ill know conclusively that you just dont get it.? I hope that you do get it.? Thats just the style of music Slash loves and wanted for GNR, especially at that time where they had just done the "experimental" album and he wanted a return-to-form.? As I said, for one to be too lazy to try out alternative methods, they have to want to do them in the first place.? If not, then any later refusals are not because of laziness, but other reasons such as geuine disinterest and disagreement.
?

I meant disageeing with Axl in this instance.? Slash is being labeled lazy because he doesnt share Axls enthusiasm for experimenting with industrial or "alternative" music.?
 

By what sense of the definition?? Youre using the wrong word.



Again, youre using the wrong word... : ok:
 


So you think that Slash doesnt already know what industrial music sounds like?? Especially Axls version of industrial ("My World")?? Why would he waste time trying to make music he already knows hes not interested in making, especially under the GNR name?? To placate Axl?? So if Axl decided that he wanted to put some rap, or maybe some opera, on the record and Slash objected on principle, he would labeled lazy by your logic.? Slash already knew it wasnt his thing, and also knew what his thing was, and thats what he wanted to do.  He encouraged Axl to do the industrial thing, he just didnt want it imposed on GNR, and that happened to be the band consensus apparently.

And you didnt answer my first question, so Ill ask again: What hard work would is required on Slashs part to participate in Axls vision of making industrial-style music?

Because when we think about it, doesnt it seem a lot easier for Slash?? Most of the "industrialization" of the music is done in production, and the guitar work itself most certainly wouldnt have been very technically demanding for him.? So what "hard work" did it really require?? The fact is he had a geunine disinterest in making that kind of music, and a genuine interest in making a "GNR" record because thats what he loved and thats what he wanted for GNR.? Laziness doesnt figure into the equation.

dude, its not about technical skill
or anything of that sort
it's about creative/artistic evolution
.....of which slash has next to zero



say what you want about my world, or oh my god, or whatever, at least axl's not making and rehashing the same old shit. axl's a true artist  : ok:

too bad contraband is better than oh my god and my world eh?
who says people have to evolve, if something works, don't have to change it

You can say that but if GNr never put out CD atleast we will have CD,Madagascar,IRS,TB along with the old stuff . WIth SLash are you gonna even go back to snakepit?

No, you refer to Slither, STB, Superhuman etc.?

Some continually mistake spending time on something you have no belief in as some sort of progression as a musician, I consider it artistic blasphemy.

Some also continually portray Axl's vision as being some sort of higher musical calling, horseshit.
One could argue Axl's lack of vision and his blatant attemtps to play to different trends has left him so far behind the game his chance at current relevence diminishes with every passing day.

On the other hand, it could also be argued that Slash's insistence on not following Axl into the road of
the musical abyss gave him the opportunity to move forward as a player and solidify his identity away from his prior band.
 

Personally, yes.? Theres quite a few solid overall Snakepit songs: "Beggars & Hangers On," "Back & Forth Again," "Serial Killer," "Aint Life Grand," "I Hate Everybody But You," "The Truth," "Just Like Anything," "Right Back To The Moment," and perhaps a few others.? Then theres songs like "Be The Ball" and others which are actually very good musically but suffer because of the vocals and thats the main issue I think most people have with Snakepit in general.? Had Axl helped with those songs, it wouldve been a much different animal.? As for the new GNR songs, I like "Madagascar," "The Blues," and "Chinese Democracy" a lot, but I really dont go back to them any more than those Snakepit songs.

And as Falcon pointed out, you left out VR which Ive been listening to consistently for over a year.

Slash hasn't solidified anything with Velvet Revolver-sorry. He is still the axeman for Guns N' Fuckin Roses-end of discussion. Just like Jimmy Page didn't create a new identity with The Firm. This talk about progression and evolution as an artist is just horseshit. Slash is what he is and is (the most important thing) happy with it. He has made no steps forward or backward-he just stays in place. Axl, on the other hand, has done nothing so how the fuck can anyone say he has stepped backward or forward? I don't give a shit what he says...you can only judge the music. We have heard 7 songs from the new Gnr. He steps forward-backward-sideways-and everywhere else. He is all over the map. People need to put things in context. Evolving as an individual artist is different than being a trend setter for the industry. I have never heard Axl say he wants to be a cutting edge performer. Personally, I just think he wanted to do something different for himself. Just as UYI was an artistic evolution from AFD, hopefully, Chinese will be an evolution from UYI. It doesn't mean it will be an earth shattering event or will influence every band for the next decade, it will just be something different for Axl. ?: ok:

I don't know.
With this monkey, I imaged a clockwork monkey toy that clashes his cymbals. A bit of computerisation would enable it to beat more and complicated rhythms. Those Old fashioned toys are nice tho.
Learning  the up-to- date technology from scratch while keeping the clock work?

While Im sure you would like to believe this, the fact is that VR are already more successful then The Firm. ?No, Slashs tenure in VR wont overshadow his tenure in GNR, but today hes Slash from Velvet Revolver, and that status is cemented further everyday with each accomplishment they make. ?


Why would he have to learn it?  Would he be producing the album?  Adding sound effects and such?

Sorry madman, that doesn't fly.

Multi platinum record, hit singles, Grammy award and successful tours tend to blow that theory right out of the water.

There's no doubt he'll always be associated with GNR, that's undeniable.

But..

Portraying him as "axeman for Guns N' Fuckin Roses" is nothing more than a historical fact, hardly a present day reality...

peopel think of Slash they think of GNr not Vr

Falcon, yeah, I know, but it sounds good.....I'm exaggerrating a little.  :-\

That's a huge generalization, no different than the Replacements fans who only think of The 'Mats
when Tommy Stinson's name is mentioned.

A bit myopic, don't you think?

it?s simple...ask jimmy page what he thinks about industrial music...and besides that who really fukin want an industrial techno electronic music record coming from guns n roses? lets see...the reason why i star listening to guns n roses was because they fukin rock! they didnt dance...so slash is a great player and believe me he can make that techno shit in a minute but that would satisfy him? mmmm no...thats the reason because he didnt want to do it...not lazyness and speaking of lazyness i think axl is a bit lazy now for about 3 years? he didnt even speak to anyone because he?s to lazy to do it sitting in his house doing nothing when his ex band mates are touring over the world so who is lazy here? and if you axl lovers think that a song like chinese democracy is good you really need to listen to apeetite for destruction again a few times to see what?s good...
just my 2 cents

ever heard of the word progress???
i for one am thankful as all hell that axl wants to push his music further.... we haven't heard most of it yet, so we can't really definitely say what it is he's doing... but evolution is amazingly important in the career of an artist. a real one, anyway. because a real artist is never really satisfied with what they have done, but strives to push it further and continuously make it better... and sometimes it takes on an entirely new life, which is when you can definitively say you have succeeded as an artist.

cm'on people, bloody hell, do you want the same old shit rehashed with different lyrics or a slightly different intro?? if that's what you're into listen to linkin park, or velvet revolver...

Fuck you. Why the hell are you even on this forum? you certainly don't like Guns N' Roses.

fuck you. i fucking love gn'r.

it's VR i'm shifty about... i mean bloody hell, their songs all meld together in this one mass of giant...generic metalish rock music... especially considering the talent involved, it was a disappointment.
i said fucking nothing negative about gn'r, i wasn't even talking about gn'r, i was fucking praising axl as an artist. bloody hell...

C'mon people, this ridiculous Axl wanted to evolve wanted to make GN'R's music better is bullshit. We are all Guns N' Roses fans and the GN'R songs made us fans not OMG, The Blues or Silkworms... Where to evolve when you make the best music on Earth? Why should you follow trends when you were the one who made a trend? When grunge came to the picture Axl wanted to be Pearl Jam... later he wanted to be Nine Inch Nails... C'mon, GN'R have to be Guns N' Roses no need for radical changes. I know that some will say that 'you can't play the same music for decades it's boring'. Yes it is, but Guns N' Roses were never boring since they had a cool diversity from day 1 thanks to their different influences.

Back to the topic:

I think the 'dive in and find the monkey' comment meant that (in Axl's mind) Slash had no vision, he wanted to make a straight rock 'n' roll album without masturbating on whistles, noises, MLK quotes etc.

Nor should they think of Tommy as GNr right now. He hasnt even released a gnr album yet

That is all I hear about...Axl following trends...Axl "wanting to be"...were you saying the same when Axl wanted to be Aerosmith, Queen, RS, etc? Of course not. During the old era they followed the peopel they respected and loved. They took that and molded it into their own.

How is that different now? Axl likes other types of music. God forbid he should mold that into the GNr sound.

You basically contradicted everything u said. If Axl is trying to be unique they how is he tring to be something else? By him wanting to incorporate newer styles of music to make GNr more diverse how is that being a wanna be? or follwoing trends?

It's his contradiction, not mine  :-*

Is that last sentance a joke? Slash wanted to hard rock music, not anything new. And Axl wil be huge? Where is he now? Fucking no where

You don't seem to understand that a band can change and still sound like the same band. Look at U2 going from "The Joshua Tree" to "Achtung Baby". That's my favorite example of a band evolving and trying something different.




/jarmo

Nowadays Very Few know the fact that Jimmy Page already had an identity with The Yard Birds before the Zeppelin debut, to which Zep owes the immediate success both commercially and musically. Musically. Hell, He would have kept the name of "the yardbirds" if he had owned the name.

Yeah, ask him. He'd tell you about the good in Industrial.
He even states Zep was the alternative of that time.
People like him give any genre its due. IMO.

That's a great example..

Another thing U2 had going for it is the scene they emerged from. ?The college rock element of the early 80's lended itself to letting artists change and reinvent themselves while the 80's Sunset Strip scene created a major pidgeonhole, stereotyping bands leaving diversity by the wayside.

You don't seem to understand that a band can change and still sound like the same band. Look at U2 going from "The Joshua Tree" to "Achtung Baby". That's my favorite example of a band evolving and trying something different.

/jarmo


...and let me say, Achtung Baby kicks ass! ?

I really wish everyone who loves Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt so much...go! ?Just leave. ?If you look out your window and see pigs flying, snowballs on fire, or George W. Bush making an intelligent statement, come back! ?By all means! ?Those 3 things will happen before the old GNR ever gets back together again...

Younggunner and ppbebe make the most sense in this thread...by far! ?

-Axl4Prez2004 ? :beer:

But don't forget that they all wanted to change the sound or at least they all agreed to change. In GN'R only Axl wanted to change dramatically... And although I'm not a U2 expert but for me their old and new sounds isn't as different as old GN'R and Nu-GN'R. BTW I wish you had more example for such a change...

I don't think that's true.

Duff was still in the band after Slash left so I guess he was interested in it a bit....





How about The Beatles?




/jarmo

I've been a fan of The Cult for years, they reinvented themselves dramatically a number of times over the years. ?

Starting out with the gothic stylings of "Dreamtime" to the neo-psychedelia of "Love" onto the straight ahead hard rock
of "Electric" and beyond. ?

No matter what direction they went, they still all sound distinctively Cult like, exploring new ground while staying true to themselves. ?

Again, these guys came from an entirely different scene and never had the maistream appeal of a GNR, or a U2 for that matter. ?

Bringing this back to GNR, their massive success may have put them behind the 8 ball in a creative sense and quite possibly would have stifled their growth as a band if they'd managed to keep it together for the long haul anyway.

Thanks god GN'R didn't take that sunset path.

I don't see Axl has intended to make very industrial/electronic/"alternative" music. He wanted to take the good bits from them and blend these with the traditional GN'R sound. 

Rn'R was born crossbred. So are most of art movements. But as soon as the new trend gets established, the stagnation starts. It tries to keep itself purebred by cloning or inbreeding.

Instead, keep infusing it with new blood and gather no moss. that's What Axl thinks GN'R really is- So I gather from the interviews.

I don't know if Slash held opposite views on this point than the said comment " I don't want to work that hard"


It's not illigal here to like today's GN'R better than yesterdays, is it?
To my knowledge saying "F U" to others is.....

Me!!! If it's done right and still has a lot of guitars, this could be really good!

That's ignorance. It would be true if you compare b-level Sunset bands with an a-level band like U2, but that's just gratuitous. I would be hard pressed to find many bands that went through more artistic changes and reinvented themselves more than Motley Crue.

On the other side of things, look at what college rock has become now. Would you say that Hootie and the Blowfish have reinvented themselves or changed artistically in a positive way? They are just as plain and boring today as they were 10 years ago. And how much diversity is there really between Dave Matthews Band and John Mayer?

That may or may not be true, but Axls own statements (from the "OMG" press release) suggest that its not.  It appears that Duff was with Slash, and despite leaving later, didnt seem to interact with Axl very much after Slashs departure anyway. 

Another thing youve failed to observe is that while you keep referencing U2s great leap with Achtung Baby, GNR had basically already done it with the UYIs.  Not much on those two albums sounds like it came from AFD.  Theres softer ballads, sound effects, country tunes, banjos, synths, pianos, classical guitar, etc.  So making the great leap is no longer the issue, its going into a direction (industrial or electronic) with which most of the band was uncomfortable.

 :hihi:

Then why dont you effectively counter my posts, Axl4Prez?  Its better than playing thread critic.

Wow, Thanks a lot Axl4Prez!  :beer:

Booker (n falcon) is a powerful adversary. :hihi:

To enable the monkey to make more varied  and complicated sounds? Perhaps for the same reason the current members know how to use the computer. apparently To the requirement Slash answered that he didn't want to work that hard.
The Source? I quoted an article regarding this matter a few pages back. In case you're too lazy to look it up, I repost it here.

Again, if someone says he doesn't want to work "that hard', those who're highly motivated to work 'that hard' may well tell him "come on, don't be lazy!". Don't you think so?


Which sounds more wanky to you, either autogamy or allogamy / either the inbred or the crossbred?
I guess taking up something new from scratch is not easy for grownups. Especially when their successful past ensures that they can manage more than all right without improving themselves further, by making the best of what they've already got.
The Process with that would take hell lots of time and pains than reproducing that 'straight' whatever. As the line of Chinese Democracy says "Cause it would take a lot more time than you got for masturbation"

Hardly..

Beyond their reunion tour, just where is the Crue creatively on the radar these days? ?

On top of that, did they have any success post grunge? "Generation Swine" might have been the most feeble attempt at reinvention and pandering to then current trends we've ever seen.

They reinvented themselves between Shout At The Devil and Theater Of Pain from heavy metal to glam. Again for Girls Girls Girls to more bluesy driven hard rock. Then they did a pop metal album with Dr Feelgood. In 94 they did what can best be described as an alternative heavy metal album, going back to their heavy metal roots but blending in grunge influences. Then they completely went off the map with Generation Swine. It had some industrial influence, but it was so radical that it didn't even fit any genre. Hardly an attempt to 'pander to any trend.'? Remember, we were talking about 'artist change' and 'reinventing yourself,' not about success, so it doesn't matter whether they've had "success post grunge." The point is that: REM's catalog, for example (I use them only because they are the first thing that pops into most people's heads when you say 80's college rock), doesn't have two albums that are as radically different from each other as Theater Of Pain and Generation Swine. I'm not necessarily knocking anyone, but it's simply wrong to say that the Sunset Strip scene lacked change and diversity.

And again, if you want to talk about a scene which "created a major pidgeonhole, stereotyping bands leaving diversity by the wayside" just look at college rock today. Gavin DeGraw, anyone? John Mayer, anyone? Jason Mraz, anyone?

The monkey? ????

"Varied and complicated sounds" (such as...?) is work for the producer, engineer and Axl as the resident "varied and complicated sound" enthusiast. ?I dont see why that would necessiate any extra work from anybody else in the band.


On what did you base this?


It still doesnt make sense. ?Even if Slash sold himself out artistically and agreed to assist in making GNR Axls industrial experiment, I dont see what extra work is required of him. ?To ask him to do what is essentially production work is not only ridiculous, but very unlikely to have ever happened. ?So dont just give a blanket "He could have used more sounds," try giving specifics...What was the actual "hard work" Slash didnt want to do? ?


I didnt ask for a source, because its not very relevant. ?I know thats Axls allegation, and even if its true, Id still like to hear an explanation of what it means. ?Who knows the context in which it was said? ?But common sense tells me that Slashs main issue wasnt the work involved in achieving an industrial sound, but rather having no desire to even have such a sound. ?So if he didnt want that sound in the first place, which I think we can all agree on, then the "work" involved in getting that sound is not relevant at all. ?Understand? ?Its really very simple.


See the above paragraph. ?Im leery of Axls allegation 1.) Because of the logic reasons I outlined above and 2.) Other goofy statements Axl has made in regards to this issue such as being mainly interested in making a Slash record and Slash supposedly scrapping anything that "worked." ?If somebody can make any sense out of that, Id love to hear it, because to me it seems Axls saying that Slash would come up with really great riffs and then stop and say "No, too good. ?This works too well, we cant use it." ? ???

So if youre going to abandon common sense and logic just to hang on to one vague, unsubstantiated quote from Axl, feel free (I certainly wouldnt be surprised). ?But I just cant take that argument seriously.

Booker, you make your points very well. But like you said, people dont seem to understand logic. Its so funny how people will defend Axl's contradictions to their last breath.

"College rock?"

From where did you derive the definition of this genre, and how did you come to the conclusion that John Mayer, Gavin DeGraw and Jason Mraz are included? ?

Such adherence to labels is silly to begin with, but youre just using bogus examples to prove a point.

Well, personally, I don't like labels either. But it's hard to ignore them when certain people like to use them to stigmatize certain bands and exalt others.

As for how I define it, I define it from experience. I graduated from college last year and whether I like it or not, I had to listen to a lot of it. They are not bogus examples, you just haven't kept up with it.

You can hear all kinds of music at college, whether it be college radio, dormitories, or cars in the parking lot.  It doesnt necessarily make it "college (genre)."

From AllMusic.com:

"Essentially, college rock is the (largely) alternative music that dominated college radio playlists from the rise of alternative rock (circa 1983-84) through the '80s. Most college rock was born in the confluence of new wave, post-punk, and early alternative rock...College rock's heyday essentially ended with Nirvana's breakthrough in 1991, which opened mainstream ears to the more accessible side of alternative rock; as college radio playlists began to resemble commercial alternative radio, the more experimental branches of alternative and indie rock were driven even further underground."

The "college rock" of today is indie-style rock and "emo" I suppose, such as Bright Eyes.  Jason Mraz, Gavin DeGraw, and John Mayer are fairly standard mainstream pop singer/songwriters, listened to mostly by females.  Calling them college rock at all, let alone using them as the representitives of the genre, is off-the-mark to say the least.

I get where you're coming from although I don't think the subtle changes made by the Crue over the years got them any acceptance by any audience outside of the realm they already appealed to from the get go. ?

In essence, I don't think we'll hear of The Crue charaterized as any type of musical chameleons any time soon.

Bringing this back to GNR, I can't recall any band that emerged from the Sunset Strip scene of the mid eighties that were ever allowed any radical creative license that actually benefitted their existence.

Even if you use indy and emo bands, my point still stands. But Throughout the late 90s, mainstream pop singer songwriters and bands, such as Hootie and the Blowfish, Dave Matthews Band, etc. have generally been considered college rock. The three I mentioned are merely the latest reincarnation of those. Allmusic needs to updated the definition to account for the changes since grunge. Yes, you can hear all kinds of music at college. I've heard Whitesnake and Queen played a lot too, but no one calls them college rock. Yet, they do call Dave Matthews and Jason Mraz college rock. You and the people at allmusic need to go back to school ?:P

All of that goes back to popularity and what others think. Fact is, Motley or any Sunset Strip band is never going to be thought much of by people outside the realm of music they appealed to from the get go. That's because others will never even get a chance of hearing Motley without the attached "hair" or "Sunset Strip" etc. stereotypes. All the critics have tastes similar to yours and the industry is run by people like you, and your lot simply does not like that type of band. Motley Crue will be spit upon and stigmatized by your ilk you no matter what they do. It doesn't mean they are not creative.

I never said they weren't creative, just merely a product of the scene they emerged from.? Nothing more, nothing less.

Not only taking things a bit personal, but making them that way as well I can see..

Oh well..

Anyway, I suspect the microscope GNR will be under when and if CD is released will dwarf that of any other band that had it's heyday on The Strip in the 80's..

 

jimmy page playing industrial music?mmmm...i dont think so....slash playing industrial music?mmmm i dont think so....
guns n roses could have evolve in a positive way musically without that industrial thing...look at led zeppelin and you?ll see what evolve means...so maybe slas wanted to evolve in a diferent way and that doesn?t make him lazy...he had another vision, so he quits, maybe the monkey is some kind of the evolution slash wanted in guns.
anyway, listening to what we heard from the now legendary "chinese democracy", axl is not doing something that sounds like the best rock album ever, he is not even close to that and maybe thats why he hasnt release the album yet, i dont give a fuck if he doesn t realese the album in the next 15 years as far as it?s the best rock album ever.

I think the leap from AFD to UYI wasn't as big as the one U2 did. It still sounded a lot like GN'R, just a GN'R with more money to spend on recording. GN'R Lies had acoustic tracks, something that you can't hear on AFD, but I wouldn't call that evolving either.

It's true that the UYI albums sound different, but I wouldn't compare it to the evolving U2 did.




/jarmo

I think thats understating things.  Its a lot more than just more money.  More money affords better production and recording values, but it has little to do with the genuine experimenting they did on those records, stylistically and instrumentally. 


Thats not a good analogy, because simply going acoustic isnt very "experimental."  But Ill list the examples I gave earlier: acoustic guitars, horns, tamboourines, choirs, sound effects, synthesizers, harmonicas, saxophones, organs, pianos, banjos, sitars, keyboards, clavinets, and a wide array of different guitars, such as Dobros and slides.  Stylistically, Ill again list some examples: psychedelia, piano ballads, semi-acoustic ballads, songs 7-10 minutes long, a full-blown country song, and..."My World."  Not to mention the different styles used by each member, and Axls lyrics and subject matter.  Compare that to AFD, which contained minimal synth and virtually nothing else beside guitars, bass, and drums.  If that isnt an "evolution," then Im not sure what you guys are expecting...I dont see how going industrial or whatever trumps all of that as true evolution.

But many of those long songs existed for years before being released. Some existed even before AFD was recorded.

"My World", now there's something different.......



/jarmo

My World is certainly different, but I dont know if i would be able to enjoy a whole record like that. Would have been an amazing solo project for Axl to pursue, that would have added to his own reputation as a mucision without involvement from the group. GNR had its own image and fan base. They were too important to the rock genre to just change on a whim. Backlash was inevitable.

If Axl were to put out an album that was full of songs that sounded like My World I'd buy 20 copies, go see him when he came around on tour promoting the album, and then proceed to chuck all 20 copies at him hoping that they'd at least take one of his eyes out or something.

The Monkey line is a metaphor.
The Computer is not only use to the producers, engineers or manias. May not necessary but useful for musicians to write music. It's a versatile tool. We have plenty of knowledgeable people here who can explain it better than me.


A couple of Interviews. In One of these some musician claims that he introduced it to Axl, I think. I'm too lazy to go n find the articles now. Maybe later.



I understand you're fascinated with the industrial sound but
Modern tech is not only for it.
I could be more specific, if I had been there.
Just that  the article reads as if Slash wasn't really against Axl's whatever idea itself but the labour accompanied it.

???
Perdon? I can't make sense out of your 2,). Who was interested in making a Slash record and who said "No, too good.  This works too well, we cant use it."?


Here obviously I'm not discussing Slash's main issue in the conflict.
My point is that according to this article, it's not that unfair of Axl to say slash was too lazy to learn the new technology.
My common sense says when the point at issue is someone's wording, the allegation of the man himself is the most relevant to the matter.
It's vague, unsubstantiated, maybe, but so is the comment in question. Do we really know the context of anything?
At least the quote is more appropriate to refer than the speculations based on the reputations.

:idea:

David Bowie!

The Clash!

The way I see it, maybe Slash feared something would be too catchy or too commercial. Like in, not "it works" for the record, but "it works" in the sense that it could sell a lot. I don't think Slash was too happy with their more mainstream hits like SCOM or November rain, so maybe he was trying to go back a little more underground, more to the roots or something.
It's actually very bizarre how bands from certain circles strive not to write a catchy song, like it's some sort of crime, or like you're selling your soul. Maybe that's it : Slash didn't want to write another riff a la Sweet Child  ???

Doesn't sound paranoid at all to me. Just remember that SCOM features the band's most famous riff, and Slash has always admitted to hating it. And he came up with it, didn't he? Now, imagine he was coming up with a similar catchy riff in the timeframe in question, and decided to dismiss it because he didn't want to write another mainstream hit, something, once again, he has admitted he wasn't confortable with. Please tell me how that is far-fetched.

Yes, he admitted to hating it at that particular time, but has he ever attribute that distaste to sounding like it would be successful?  If so, then Im definitely interested in seeing the quote.  But I from what I recall, he just hated the riff in general.


Until I see evidence that Slash objected to "Sweet Child O' Mine" on the basis of how successful he thought it would, Im going to assume the obvious (and what I believe Slash has confirmed): that he just didnt like the riff.  The paranoia comes when one presumes deep-seeded ulterior motives over a mere preference of taste.  And if Slash did bluntly say what Axl interpretively quoted (which I again doubt), then it he failed to mention it and the notion reamains, as I said, poorly explained.

You know, I have read a great number of GN'R articles, and I think it's fairly possible Slash said something to the effect  that he thought the riff was too catchy. In all honesty, I can't tell for sure off the top of my head, and unfortunately, I don't have enough time on my hands to plough through over a hundred magazines. Maybe someone will remember better than me.

That doesn't discredit the rest of my theory though. I wouldn't be surprised if Slash had dismissed ideas he thought had too much commercial potential, while Axl thought there was nothing wrong with that. Of course, it then all comes down to a difference of opinion. Again.

still going about something as simple as different tastes in music...you people are like the Everready bunny. ::) No need to worry because those two guys will NEVER EVER EVER play together again. :no: :no:

If Slash didn't want to write anythng too catchy, then how do you explain the riff for Fall To Pieces.  That's an extremely catchy, poppy riff...not that that's a bad thing.  In fact I think it sounds a lot like the SCOM riff.  You never hear Slash bad mouth that song.  Actually the band has kinda embraced that song.  Of course this is years after he last tried to write with Axl, so Slash's mind-set may be much different now.  I don't think Slash has anything against catchy riffs, I just think he dislikes the SCOM riff.

So did we figure this riddle out? Are we in agreement with chineseblues that he was referring to a game children play at McDonalds?